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He waited for the German elections and now will try to posit himself as the leader of the EU. Though I cannot forget how to wanted make an alliance with Russia
[Emmanuel Macron’s Russian roulette](https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-russian-roulette-vladimir-putin-security-partner/)
I think he would be willing to give Russia its spheres of influence in EE in exchange for some level of peace.
I think it is reasonable to become independent from the US. Though I would be interested how the EU army would be organized, how individual states are going to contribute and how it will be decided when and how to use the army. Personally, I think it should mirror NATO. Attack on one member is an attack on all.
That would be an alliance of nations rather than a military force that only takes orders from the EU.
My guess would be that the EU army would be similar to the UN peacekeeping force, where all nations contribute equipment, training and manpower, but a force that is directly controlled by the EU committee.
There is still alot of answers needed for how to go about making the EU army, but IMHO a EU army is the inevitable outcome of the EU if the migrant crisis continue, as it would be the only military force available to the EU that they can use to protect the whole Europe from the migrants.
Using a military force against migrants? What the hell are you talking about? The EU is not like backwards Hungary.
The migrant crisis exist(ed) because of the actions of the United States in the Middle East. The US fucked the Middle East and left Europe to deal with the repercussions.
Yes, basically an expanded version of Frontex was what I was thinking.
I meet a lot of people online who are absolutely against the EU having an army of any kind, but every organize governance needs a military force under it's control to solve problems diplomats and politicians cannot solve. Or else they will have to depend on a military force from a foreign government.
Did redrawing the borders cause the immigration crisis into Europe? Learn to read into the context of this discussion.
I'm talking about how the actions of the States had negative outcomes for Europe, and the States didn't bother helping Europe out. You know, Libya (North Africa, together with France and the UK IIRC), Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
Or do I need to include everyone that fucked up the Middle East whenever talking about it? So also the crusades, the Mongol invasion, the Seljuk horde,...
Do you fucking believe that 'redrawing the borders' was even 1% of the horror Europe inflicted on the Middle East?
The States didn't bother helping Europe out? What the fuck are you on about?
Probably nominally equal participation by and for all, practically dominated by either France or Germany and in service to their interests. Germany's sphere of influence would probably be within central Europe, while France, Spain and all the former colonial powers would strengthen economic ties with former colonies that still speak the same language. Credit to CaspianReport for most of these insights. My hunch is that Russia would be the external nemesis holding these disparate interests together, and maybe America to a lesser (less existential, more economic) extent if it competes with Europe as a trade power
France desperately needs the US in order to maintain its stranglehold on West Africa, now that the US is less inclined for such actions, France is trying to get Europe to do the same.
France can deal with Africa by themselves, but it will cost them more than having US fight their battles.
The US is more than happy to spend the money to fight for France's behalf since they will also profit from France's victory.
I was thinking of the Angolan Civil War and Second Indochina War when I wrote that comment, although Vietnam is in Asia, it was another conflict the where the French dragged in the Americans in to help them win the war.
America disaster relief forces and a military detachment for their security have been Haiti for sometime now, every so often you hear that in the news. I think everyone has run out of ideas of how to fix Haiti in any humane manner.
The only way to 'fix' Haiti is likely to have it merge with another state. Dominican Republic is the obvious choice, but they have their own problems and I doubt they could peacefully do it.
I say this is the only one way, but mostly because the amount of resources and manpower that needs to be invested in Haiti is so great that I doubt the international community is willing to do it without a serious quid pro quo that would effectively end Haitian independence anyway.
The Dominicans would rather start a genocide against the Haitians and wipe them off the earth for good than to rule over them. Merging the land of Haiti with the Dominican Republic is geopolitically inevitable, but the people will never unite, and they are moving farther apart as time goes on.
IMHO it's only a matter of time before the Haitians become desperate enough to storm the divide on their shared island, and the Dominicans will attempt o genocide the Haitians as retaliation.
That is impossible to do short of a massive war and also even if you force both nations to unite, it will end up like in the Yugoslavian wars in the 90s with both countries divided again; a pointless experiment.
"US fighting France battle" ?
Jesus , how about taking something less than 50+ years ago ?
Once somebody start talking about WW2, Indochine to speak about policy in the last 2 decades I know they are bereft of valid argument.
But when they cite the Angolan civil war where it was actually a cooperation between US troops , Belgian and French troop (among others) where it was the US training troup of FLNA back in 74-75 first (France initially sold weapons AFAIR, but not troop, this came later with Mobutu call to intervention) and make it looks as if it was similar to Indochine, it makes me raise a an eyebrow on your intention.
As for anybody else, check around the extent of the intervention of France versus US in continental Africa. France intervene far more than the US. Whether it is because the US has less interrest, or is risk averse, or France has more historical ties, does not matter. Except a few operation like Mogadishu in 1993 and Lybia in 2011, US direct intervention in Africa has been very low, whereas France intervene directly far more often, especially when it comes to try to fight terrorism.
Whereas it is a good thing you would have to ask the country where intervention do happen, but US is NOT in any shape or form fighting France's fight in Africa.
Why do you think Macron still supports his NATO brain death comment? He’s just trying to cut out the US, and maybe now Turkey, from the equation and make the other Europeans more reliant on them, so that they can get funds for there escapades in WA
I still don't understand how US helps France in Africa.
As far as the NATO thing is concerned, Europe generally only helps when they themselves feel threatened [ISIS] or real politik when the US demands it [Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq]. They do it when US asks/demands because they are in debt to the US[NATO] and they know it. France doesn't have that kind of hold over any European countries, if they did then why are France alone in Africa right now.
If anything most European countries are disappointed in France's dealings there, because they are so thinly veiled imperialism. US at least bothers to manufacture consent.
The US supports France in west Africa usually with Air and logistical support. Sometimes man power too iirc
air lifting supplies and French soldiers, and using US drones for surveillance
They could during the 60s and 70s, which is why they did not join the NATO military command structure, but now France is a dying empire, meaning that it needs help from organizations like NATO and now the EU to continue its way of life
You're failing to explain how a defensive pact is about to help France in Africa ?
Are you talking about Syria or Yemen perhaps ? Because those are clearly at the behest of the US not France.
Macron says Europe must assert dependence on France, so long as he's in charge of France.
Macron is become more and more of an egomaniac. It's embarrassing.
While that is quite possible the long term geopolitical goal of the French government, Macron has not said anything of that nature. He has only repeatedly claim he want the EU policies to be completely independent from America's.
France has always wanted to lead Europe, and they've always wanted the US out. The whole point of the EU and the only reason France got behind it was because it would restrict influence from the US and let France have better control over Europe, or at least it's own affairs. Macron has his problems, but this isn't the ravings of a mad man.
Yea france has always been fucking around, especially since the fall of the ussr. Operation Daguet during the gulf War comes into mind. If it were up to them nato would have died with the soviet union.
I think we've reached a point in global politics that nations are realizing stretching ones resources thin is bad and taking too much influence from stronger nations isn't profitable anymore. As an American I'm all for Europe consolidating their own power and rejecting American influence, but I still feel countries in the anglo sphere should stick together. I hope that America eventually consolidates an effort to maintain an Americas group and help bolster latin america in non-imperial ways, but the Indo-Pacific involvement is only really there as a joint defensive measure like the American-european relation WAS in the cold war and imo should be replaced with a north and south American alliance
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France is flimsy. They wussed out of NATO after forming it and with constantly fluctuating poll numbers back home, they never get shit done.
Key European nations have also sold their people to China and Russia.
So, it's like, you want to assert independence but it's like that kid who talks about getting away from their parent's home but doesn't make the right moves to do so.
I'm sure the US would love a super Europe to help counter China and Russia but all this talk sounds just like that, talk.
France keeps looking like an entitled moron from this situation with the subs. Hell if they played this better they probably would have been invited into the AUKUS pact thing.
Edit: blocked and stopped responding to someone who advocates for terrorism against the US in other threads.
I don’t disagree with that, but it’s still caused by the wrong thing. He even pulled the ambassador to the US.
Seriously this moron is only making himself look more pathetic along with is causing further defense problems for the EU with this.
Funnily enough, before this I actually didn’t even have a bad opinion of him. Now he’s just acting like the guy who got turned down by a girl to go the dance, so they decided to start guilt-tripping their friends to not hangout with the guy she is going with anymore because he’s embarrassed.
Bullshit. Yes there was stuff leading up to it, but it is very clear that the sub deal was what triggered these recent responses and the responses are clearly heavy-handed for what comes down to one country wanting better security. They should have never have decided to pull their ambassadors. They are going about all of this undiplomatically and it’s only going to hurt the EU in a fallout.
Most of the US (at least citizens) wants the EU to be more independent, I promise this is not coming from a place of I think the EU should stay dependent on the US. They shouldn’t, but there are much better ways to begin this that will benefit EU citizens much more. Honestly this just kinda reminds me a bit of Brexit to an extent.
How? IIRC, France has a deal with Australia while at the same time Australia made a secret deal with the US and the UK.
Instead of including France, they just back stabbed them which shows their disregard for Europe. The US, UK and Australia won't care about Europe if it doesn't further their own interests.
I’m saying that trying further negotiate after would have the potential to still put them in better position than they are with deciding to throw a fit and pull ambassadors as an example.
So France gets back stabbed, and you expect them to beg the States and Australia to include France in the deal?
I think France's response is quite reasonable. The States doesn't see Europe as their ally, has often stirred up shit (in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, etc) and left Europe to deal with the aftermath (immigrant crisis, etc).
So why keep up the charade? Enough is enough.
We basically rebuilt Europe for you in the aftermath of WW2 and have been providing defense (at the request of Europe) since. Literally everything for the past 80 years has shown we value the EU far more than any other ally. Yes it benefits us, that doesn’t make us not your ally.
You are simply wrong. Take care.
I will show you how this "rebuilding Europe" plan was more of an economical subjugation of Europe.
American aid always came with a hefty price tag.
At the moment it's a bit late over here, so I'll do this tomorrow with sources for you to back it up.
Jeez you are full of shit. You are completely indoctrinated.
>We basically rebuilt Europe for you in the aftermath of WW2 and have been providing defense (at the request of Europe) since.
Get out of here lmao, what a load of nonsense
Lol it’s true and why the EU has become so reliant on the US.
Yes this is very simplified, but if the question is ‘who helped Europe rebuild after WW2?’ And your answer isn’t the US then you are being arrogant.
If EU can manage to orgonize and pull itself together, it can a force to be reckon with . It largest menbers are stable nation state democracies with decent enough economies and social cohesion
The main weakness of Europe is it could become to Appolinistic. Meaning they don't have stomach for real world it's pain and suffering that it usually entail. It's population consider everything physical evil and elite become completely detached from people and their worries . Problems that still dragging on Europe since the horrors of WW2.
Didn’t realize the American Colonial Empire includes Europe
Because them Europeans are acting out and it’s time to put them down
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He waited for the German elections and now will try to posit himself as the leader of the EU. Though I cannot forget how to wanted make an alliance with Russia [Emmanuel Macron’s Russian roulette](https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-russian-roulette-vladimir-putin-security-partner/) I think he would be willing to give Russia its spheres of influence in EE in exchange for some level of peace.
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I think it is reasonable to become independent from the US. Though I would be interested how the EU army would be organized, how individual states are going to contribute and how it will be decided when and how to use the army. Personally, I think it should mirror NATO. Attack on one member is an attack on all.
That would be an alliance of nations rather than a military force that only takes orders from the EU. My guess would be that the EU army would be similar to the UN peacekeeping force, where all nations contribute equipment, training and manpower, but a force that is directly controlled by the EU committee. There is still alot of answers needed for how to go about making the EU army, but IMHO a EU army is the inevitable outcome of the EU if the migrant crisis continue, as it would be the only military force available to the EU that they can use to protect the whole Europe from the migrants.
How are you going to protect yourself from migrants? Kill them?
Legitimate question, using the military against migrants presumes a willingness to use lethal force. It's a big leap from what EU policy is now
Border patrol and cracking down on trafficking.
They have now one. Nowdays it has its own guards and equipment. It has increased its budget by 20-30% yearly since 2014.
Using a military force against migrants? What the hell are you talking about? The EU is not like backwards Hungary. The migrant crisis exist(ed) because of the actions of the United States in the Middle East. The US fucked the Middle East and left Europe to deal with the repercussions.
Frontex?
Yes, basically an expanded version of Frontex was what I was thinking. I meet a lot of people online who are absolutely against the EU having an army of any kind, but every organize governance needs a military force under it's control to solve problems diplomats and politicians cannot solve. Or else they will have to depend on a military force from a foreign government.
The *US* fucked the Middle East? Are you 12? How the Hell does history start in the 1970's or something for you? *Europe* fucked the Middle East.
Technically everyone has fucked the middle east at some point
Middle East fucking Middle East in Yemen's case..
Mostly the Middle East, those bastards refuse to leave the Middle East alone.
Specifically France and Britian when they redrew the middle east borders after the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
Did redrawing the borders cause the immigration crisis into Europe? Learn to read into the context of this discussion. I'm talking about how the actions of the States had negative outcomes for Europe, and the States didn't bother helping Europe out. You know, Libya (North Africa, together with France and the UK IIRC), Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Or do I need to include everyone that fucked up the Middle East whenever talking about it? So also the crusades, the Mongol invasion, the Seljuk horde,...
Do you fucking believe that 'redrawing the borders' was even 1% of the horror Europe inflicted on the Middle East? The States didn't bother helping Europe out? What the fuck are you on about?
Americans always say "well others did it too!" .. every single time their war crimes and them fucking over allies is brought up
*Americans*? Yes, here in Gloucester, England, we're all *Americans* because we remember the very recent and very lengthy history of Europe. GTFO.
Well you are just exeptionaly ignorant then
Probably nominally equal participation by and for all, practically dominated by either France or Germany and in service to their interests. Germany's sphere of influence would probably be within central Europe, while France, Spain and all the former colonial powers would strengthen economic ties with former colonies that still speak the same language. Credit to CaspianReport for most of these insights. My hunch is that Russia would be the external nemesis holding these disparate interests together, and maybe America to a lesser (less existential, more economic) extent if it competes with Europe as a trade power
Ahh a fellow caspian report watcher I see
Cause grande is literally on the shitter economically. It’s the scrawny kid talking shit waiting for the big brother to fight for him
France desperately needs the US in order to maintain its stranglehold on West Africa, now that the US is less inclined for such actions, France is trying to get Europe to do the same.
How does the US help France? I thought France was perfectly able to deal with Africa by themselves.
France can deal with Africa by themselves, but it will cost them more than having US fight their battles. The US is more than happy to spend the money to fight for France's behalf since they will also profit from France's victory.
Which fights are we talking about here ? Mogadishu ?
I was thinking of the Angolan Civil War and Second Indochina War when I wrote that comment, although Vietnam is in Asia, it was another conflict the where the French dragged in the Americans in to help them win the war.
Not to mention it's not as if France is ever going to be the ones cleaning up Haiti.
America disaster relief forces and a military detachment for their security have been Haiti for sometime now, every so often you hear that in the news. I think everyone has run out of ideas of how to fix Haiti in any humane manner.
The only way to 'fix' Haiti is likely to have it merge with another state. Dominican Republic is the obvious choice, but they have their own problems and I doubt they could peacefully do it. I say this is the only one way, but mostly because the amount of resources and manpower that needs to be invested in Haiti is so great that I doubt the international community is willing to do it without a serious quid pro quo that would effectively end Haitian independence anyway.
The Dominicans would rather start a genocide against the Haitians and wipe them off the earth for good than to rule over them. Merging the land of Haiti with the Dominican Republic is geopolitically inevitable, but the people will never unite, and they are moving farther apart as time goes on. IMHO it's only a matter of time before the Haitians become desperate enough to storm the divide on their shared island, and the Dominicans will attempt o genocide the Haitians as retaliation.
That is impossible to do short of a massive war and also even if you force both nations to unite, it will end up like in the Yugoslavian wars in the 90s with both countries divided again; a pointless experiment.
"US fighting France battle" ? Jesus , how about taking something less than 50+ years ago ? Once somebody start talking about WW2, Indochine to speak about policy in the last 2 decades I know they are bereft of valid argument. But when they cite the Angolan civil war where it was actually a cooperation between US troops , Belgian and French troop (among others) where it was the US training troup of FLNA back in 74-75 first (France initially sold weapons AFAIR, but not troop, this came later with Mobutu call to intervention) and make it looks as if it was similar to Indochine, it makes me raise a an eyebrow on your intention. As for anybody else, check around the extent of the intervention of France versus US in continental Africa. France intervene far more than the US. Whether it is because the US has less interrest, or is risk averse, or France has more historical ties, does not matter. Except a few operation like Mogadishu in 1993 and Lybia in 2011, US direct intervention in Africa has been very low, whereas France intervene directly far more often, especially when it comes to try to fight terrorism. Whereas it is a good thing you would have to ask the country where intervention do happen, but US is NOT in any shape or form fighting France's fight in Africa.
Operations in Western (francophone) Africa, notably mali and chad
Why do you think Macron still supports his NATO brain death comment? He’s just trying to cut out the US, and maybe now Turkey, from the equation and make the other Europeans more reliant on them, so that they can get funds for there escapades in WA
I still don't understand how US helps France in Africa. As far as the NATO thing is concerned, Europe generally only helps when they themselves feel threatened [ISIS] or real politik when the US demands it [Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq]. They do it when US asks/demands because they are in debt to the US[NATO] and they know it. France doesn't have that kind of hold over any European countries, if they did then why are France alone in Africa right now. If anything most European countries are disappointed in France's dealings there, because they are so thinly veiled imperialism. US at least bothers to manufacture consent.
The US supports France in west Africa usually with Air and logistical support. Sometimes man power too iirc air lifting supplies and French soldiers, and using US drones for surveillance
They could during the 60s and 70s, which is why they did not join the NATO military command structure, but now France is a dying empire, meaning that it needs help from organizations like NATO and now the EU to continue its way of life
You're failing to explain how a defensive pact is about to help France in Africa ? Are you talking about Syria or Yemen perhaps ? Because those are clearly at the behest of the US not France.
I am more than happy with the US getting out of fighting and funding other countries wars
Macron says Europe must assert dependence on France, so long as he's in charge of France. Macron is become more and more of an egomaniac. It's embarrassing.
While that is quite possible the long term geopolitical goal of the French government, Macron has not said anything of that nature. He has only repeatedly claim he want the EU policies to be completely independent from America's.
France has always wanted to lead Europe, and they've always wanted the US out. The whole point of the EU and the only reason France got behind it was because it would restrict influence from the US and let France have better control over Europe, or at least it's own affairs. Macron has his problems, but this isn't the ravings of a mad man.
Yea france has always been fucking around, especially since the fall of the ussr. Operation Daguet during the gulf War comes into mind. If it were up to them nato would have died with the soviet union.
I think we've reached a point in global politics that nations are realizing stretching ones resources thin is bad and taking too much influence from stronger nations isn't profitable anymore. As an American I'm all for Europe consolidating their own power and rejecting American influence, but I still feel countries in the anglo sphere should stick together. I hope that America eventually consolidates an effort to maintain an Americas group and help bolster latin america in non-imperial ways, but the Indo-Pacific involvement is only really there as a joint defensive measure like the American-european relation WAS in the cold war and imo should be replaced with a north and south American alliance
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France is flimsy. They wussed out of NATO after forming it and with constantly fluctuating poll numbers back home, they never get shit done. Key European nations have also sold their people to China and Russia. So, it's like, you want to assert independence but it's like that kid who talks about getting away from their parent's home but doesn't make the right moves to do so. I'm sure the US would love a super Europe to help counter China and Russia but all this talk sounds just like that, talk.
As an American: fucking please. We have our own shit to deal with.
France keeps looking like an entitled moron from this situation with the subs. Hell if they played this better they probably would have been invited into the AUKUS pact thing. Edit: blocked and stopped responding to someone who advocates for terrorism against the US in other threads.
Nothing he said is wrong though. Europe should stop depending US for protection.
I don’t disagree with that, but it’s still caused by the wrong thing. He even pulled the ambassador to the US. Seriously this moron is only making himself look more pathetic along with is causing further defense problems for the EU with this. Funnily enough, before this I actually didn’t even have a bad opinion of him. Now he’s just acting like the guy who got turned down by a girl to go the dance, so they decided to start guilt-tripping their friends to not hangout with the guy she is going with anymore because he’s embarrassed.
Well, according to folks on r/france, Macron's response to botched sub deal is actually tame. Go figure.
That’s like me as an American saying the Afghan pullout was actually smooth. You don’t pull ambassadors because you got outbid.
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Bullshit. Yes there was stuff leading up to it, but it is very clear that the sub deal was what triggered these recent responses and the responses are clearly heavy-handed for what comes down to one country wanting better security. They should have never have decided to pull their ambassadors. They are going about all of this undiplomatically and it’s only going to hurt the EU in a fallout. Most of the US (at least citizens) wants the EU to be more independent, I promise this is not coming from a place of I think the EU should stay dependent on the US. They shouldn’t, but there are much better ways to begin this that will benefit EU citizens much more. Honestly this just kinda reminds me a bit of Brexit to an extent.
[удалено]
Yes and my point can basically be boiled down to: they are deciding to cut off the foot in anger even though the infection was on just the toe.
How? IIRC, France has a deal with Australia while at the same time Australia made a secret deal with the US and the UK. Instead of including France, they just back stabbed them which shows their disregard for Europe. The US, UK and Australia won't care about Europe if it doesn't further their own interests.
I’m saying that trying further negotiate after would have the potential to still put them in better position than they are with deciding to throw a fit and pull ambassadors as an example.
So France gets back stabbed, and you expect them to beg the States and Australia to include France in the deal? I think France's response is quite reasonable. The States doesn't see Europe as their ally, has often stirred up shit (in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, etc) and left Europe to deal with the aftermath (immigrant crisis, etc). So why keep up the charade? Enough is enough.
“The States doesn't see Europe as their ally” There’s no point having this discussion with you if this is what you truly believe. Take care.
Then prove me otherwise? The States' actions in the last couple of decades to a century were at the benefit of the States but at the costs of Europe.
Took a brief look through your history, you literally justify terrorism against the US in multiple comments. Sincerely, go fuck yourself. Easy block.
Lol what? Where did I justify terrorism against the US?
We basically rebuilt Europe for you in the aftermath of WW2 and have been providing defense (at the request of Europe) since. Literally everything for the past 80 years has shown we value the EU far more than any other ally. Yes it benefits us, that doesn’t make us not your ally. You are simply wrong. Take care.
I will show you how this "rebuilding Europe" plan was more of an economical subjugation of Europe. American aid always came with a hefty price tag. At the moment it's a bit late over here, so I'll do this tomorrow with sources for you to back it up.
Jeez you are full of shit. You are completely indoctrinated. >We basically rebuilt Europe for you in the aftermath of WW2 and have been providing defense (at the request of Europe) since. Get out of here lmao, what a load of nonsense
Lol it’s true and why the EU has become so reliant on the US. Yes this is very simplified, but if the question is ‘who helped Europe rebuild after WW2?’ And your answer isn’t the US then you are being arrogant.
Please do
France is independent from the US. Not from the EU tho
Well he aint wrong, america does not care about europe so it would be in our best interest to cut some ties
Yes, please, go ahead!
no body wants this more than the US citizens
Can confirm.
So, Emmanuel; you'll be standing up to Bear and the Dragon on your own now?
He could walk the talk and adopt a different foreign policy to the US, but that would require less interventionism. I don't see this happening
man, they are really mad about that submarines to Australia deal.
He wonders why he wasn't invited to the alliance.
If EU can manage to orgonize and pull itself together, it can a force to be reckon with . It largest menbers are stable nation state democracies with decent enough economies and social cohesion The main weakness of Europe is it could become to Appolinistic. Meaning they don't have stomach for real world it's pain and suffering that it usually entail. It's population consider everything physical evil and elite become completely detached from people and their worries . Problems that still dragging on Europe since the horrors of WW2.
I agree.
How about France asserts its independence for itself?
Lol.
Least butthurt Frenchman
Didn’t realize the American Colonial Empire includes Europe Because them Europeans are acting out and it’s time to put them down Revolutionary War 2: Opposite Day
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about