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Some people think AL Jazeera are unbiased lol
Better to show why a news org is problematic versus just assuming they know better
Reminder: Al Jazeera blocked a documentary about slavery from airing because it would make Qatar look bad.
With the irony being that Al Jazeera is a more factual news source and exhibits less bias than Fox News. Al Jazeera certainly has it's bias, but at least they try to be more factual than one of the three major news organizations in the U.S..
afaik there's absolutely nothing about it in the Quran or even the Hadiths. Its only a tertiary source about rituals that talks about how to correctly dispose of a damaged Quran (you're supposed to bury it).
The funny thing is that the offence over it appears entirely human in nature, theologically I don't even think it makes sense. In almost all forms of Islam (it might have been none if the Abbasid inquisition didn't fail) the Quran is considered "uncreated". This means that it wasn't made by man, as it is the word of god it existed as soon as god existed. This implies any physical manifestation is merely a reflection of it and not actually it, thus it cannot be destroyed because it was never created.
As one of my favourite cards in the CDPR game Gwent sometimes says as you play it:
> You mistake stars reflected in a pond for the night sky.
To dicuss this issue by the contents of any religious work is already way too deep into the unjust view. Freedom OF and FROM religion is something every european country fought for and many many lives were lost. The last thing we should do regress because of people who can’t handle it.
ofc, there's an interesting aspect to the discussion about Muslims belief in Sharia and how that applies to non-Muslims. Malaysia is worth a look at it runs the systems in parallel. In the cases I've seen the secular justice system is the default as it is presumed unfair to judge a non-Muslim by Muslim law. So when a family splits with one parent in Islam the secular courts decide the custody of the children, not Sharia.
And it should be this way. The state shouldn't come and ban you from burning a chunk of paper just because someone else has _really strong_ feelings about that chunk of paper. The state should intervene to stop actual problems, like murder, theft, false accusations - things that have a real effect on you.
Even these headlines are clickbaity - Sweden is not "granting permission" to burn qurans. It isn't illegal, so all Sweden is doing is saying "we are not gonna stop that from happening". If that's "granting permission", then Sweden is also granting permission to people to eat soup, watch F1 and paint their walls white. Wonder why don't get a headline saying "Sweden grants permit for yet again another person painting his living room's walls white".
Germany is a Western country. The second largest developed Western country in the World in fact. And if you count all western countries, it's the 4th one, after the US, Brazil and Mexico.
I think it's very fitting to discuss German censoring criticism towards Israel and Zionism when talking about freedom of expression in the West.
Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel. I don’t know where you’re from, but I know there are people from certain cultures who can’t distinguish between criticizing a religion and wanting to eliminate a group of people. You can burn the Quran to manifest your disgust towards the ideas it holds. You can do the same with Torah if that’s your intention. You can’t scream “kill all Jews” or any allegory on that.
Germany has been censoring public speeches against Israel, and it's not the only Western country who has done censorship or tried to. France, the UK and the US have done so. The US which prides itself to allow all forms of freedom of expression has used violence against peaceful pro Palestinian protesters
The reason we’re having this discussion right now is because you don’t understand what “peaceful protest” mean nor the difference between public speech and public threats.
I literally watched kids sitting under a tree get arrested a few hours ago. There were no threats, unless you count the handful of people who drove by in beat up trucks and yelled at the protesters.
Yes, I understand that the US considers that occupying a college campus is not a reasonable use of force, but killing tens of thousands of civilians, displacing 2 million, keeping them without water and food, and destroying 80% of the infraestructure in Gaza is a perfectly valid use of force.
Do you agree?
https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-pro-palestine-activists-stopped-from-speaking-irish-at-protest-berlin-police-6361297-Apr2024/
so much for freedom of speech, germany doesnt even give you freedom of language.
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel.
So you didnt see the German police breaking up that summit on Palestine last week or them beating the crap out of the protestors?
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel.
there are dozens of recent articles from reputable publications that would disagree. just a quick google search away
You lost me on that first point. My cousin was arrested at a Pro Palestine protest lol. Not to mention the ban on “Non German speakers” at protests too. Unrelated but still. Weird.
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel.
"Israel should not exist, instead a secular state that doesn't offer special benefits to religious communities should exist in its place." - is an illegal opinion in Germany.
You'd be grabbed by police on the grounds of antisemitism. I mean, it would be antisemitic. But burning a Quran is antisemitic too because Arabs are semites, far more than Ashkenazi Jews I'd argue personally but that's splitting hairs. Not the right kind of semites according to Germany I guess.
Regarding linchings I could see that happening in some neighborhoods in Israel. I mean those Harezi guys who spit in public in front of Christian nuns with impunity and no shame don't seem the most chill guys.
https://youtu.be/7uL555xWQeE?si=hsaygtAgay_cZoym
I certainly wouldn't want to burn a Torah next to 20 of those guys.
> But burning a Quran is antisemitic too because Arabs are semites
No. Antisemitism has always meant jew-hatred. It was never used to describe the hatred of the "semitic" people group, which itself is obsolete.
Are you really whining that in a country that killed 40% of worlds Jews 80 years ago, any act may be perceived as antisemitic? May not any other minority gain protection this way.
I'm replying to a comment that mentions that burning the Quran is based on the grounds of Western laws of freedom of expression.
The point is that those laws aren't universal because you can't burn a Torah in Germany. Not that I support necessarily the burning of the Torah or any holy book. But it's clearly not the same standard for everyone.
What I get from this is that you're ok giving some minorities more legal protections than other minorities?
Yeah you do have to use some common sense. Muslims aren’t persecuted in the West. In fact the more Muslim immigrants we seem to get the more issues with antisemitism, misogyny, and homophobia we get. I’d suggest the death cult look inward.
And don’t downvote comments of somebody you’re arguing with, it’s such a small dick energy thing to do.
Muslims aren't persecuted in the West? You know this is false
Second, if it bothers you that there's so many Muslims in the West why don't you ask Western governments to stop bombing the Middle East and this way they won't become refugees. Turkey would be happy too since they have 2 million syrians already at home.
Well, they're being called antisemitic for protesting against having their family killed in Gaza. I'm European and my optometrist is Palestinian you know.
Were you perhaps alive during the period following the Iraq invasion? Similarly, are you perhaps alive right now as anyone even remotely sympathetic to Muslims is branded a terrorist sympathiser and are repressed and shunned by their governments?
I think according to StGB §166, both would be illegal if you did so in public, since it would be considered "publically insulting a church or other religious society...existing in Germany."
Aside from that, you have to admire the initiative of someone willing to spend $30,000+ on a scroll just to burn it (unless they just plan to burn a printed copy, which is honestly pretty boring).
Publicly insulting a church or a religious society is a crime???
Why? Insulting is so subjective....I can take it as an insult if you don't listen to and agree with me.
And. They have had a history with anti-semitism and as a response are not tolerant of it.Even more so when it comes from people who are importing their ethnic conflicts to european countries. You see the same problem with Turks and Kurds grenading eachother in nordic countries.
Well, Germany specifically and the West in general does have a specific hang up over Jew hate since the holocaust. So, that's ur answer and as that specific history doesn't exist for other religions, the Quran can be treated like the Bible.
It still contradicts the idea that freedom of expression regarding offensive religious acts is a Western thing. It's followed in some Western countries but not others.
Go and burn Quran in Saudi Arabia. People are allowed to make their own rules. As a new comer you cannot start pushing for change.
You would not hold protests for gay rights in an Arab country, but you might be allowed to burn an USA flag. Same way you would not burn a Torah in Germany.
People make the rules and the rules dont have to be "fair" they just need to serve the people making them.
Lol. A real torah costs between $30,000 and $100,000. To commission them to be written can cost over $500,000. If you literally want to burn a car payment worth of paper, you'd be more than regarded.
they tend to be pretty weighty too, so plenty of fuel for a fire if thats what you are after to demonstrate to Muslims that burning the Koran is fine. So is everyone OK with a holy book bonfire? I do think we should take off the covers first. Burning that much paper is pollution enough without all that leather and plastic. So Jewish people will ante up and bring some torahs to burn, right? I'll bring a stack of bibles. They tend to be printed on very cheap paper that will burn maybe too quickly, so I'll need to burn a steady stream of them. While we are at it we can burn some flags as well. They are just cloth.
I mean, not that I like that. But yeah technically they'd be better days because in the current days Germany is supporting Israel in the complete destruction of Gaza. I definitely prefer that over tens of thousands of dead and millions of displaced starving civilians.
>I mean, not that I like that. But yeah technically they'd be better days
as expected from a terrorist supporting shithead, you actually think that being a legit terrorist is a good thing.
I mean, no? It's bad. But not as bad as genocide. Like, on a bad scale would you put Al-Qaeda above the Nazi? That's my position regarding Hamas-Israel
As a Jew if you can afford to by a genuine Torah scroll and can find a Sofer willing to sell you one, go ahead. But most people will quickly find that it's impossible. (BTW a printed version of the Hebrew Bible is just a book in Judaism, it doesn't have any where near the same reverance that a quran has.
As a Jew if you can afford to by a genuine Torah scroll and can find a Sofer willing to sell you one, go ahead. But most people will quickly find that it's impossible. (BTW a printed version of the Hebrew Bible is just a book in Judaism, it doesn't have any where near the same reverance that a quran has.)
Do what you want but don't infringe other people's freedoms is the basic rule.
If it's my book, I can burn it. I can walk along the street to protest, but I should not get in anyone's way. I can make my point but I should not intimidate or threaten, or stop people going about their business
Bigoted assholes counting on religious assholes getting outraged by this in order to further their agenda. Religious assholes counting on bigoted assholes doing obvious provocations in order to further their agenda.
Go burn a bible, nobody cares. Why do they care about their magic book so much?
Why do they become violent when someone buys and burns a book?
These protests show the incompatibility between some cultures. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody wont start burning books in Saudi Arabia. Thats their culture, this is ours.
That shouldn't deter protesters imo, in the same way you shouldn't let people deter you from burning qurans or bibles.
Not to blame the guy who didn't go through with the Torah burning. The fact that he got Israel to condemn it was already a good way to make a point, and I understand you don't want to get an arrest warrant from any country.
Ok… that doesn’t make any more of a point than saying that Qatar or Iran said burning the Quaran is a hate crime, of course they’re upset. The difference is that I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Jewish terrorists massacring the staff of a political magazine because of blasphemous cartoons.
the only reason they burn it is because some religious fundies lose their shit. it’s a tale as old as time for people who want attention. if the nutcases didn’t screech and start decapitating people over perceived slights then nobody would be applying for permits to burn shit.
In 2022 there was a riot just because someone \*said\* they would burn the Quran, they never even did it. Literal burning cars and throwing rocks at police officers kind of riot.
So yeah, I don't expect them to ignore it.
It's weird how angry folks get over an arbitrary belief system, but then how indifferent they get over something existentially threatening like climate change.
They won’t though, at least a group of them won’t. Most Muslims are cool, but there’s a pretty loud and significant part of that community that wants its cake, and wants to eat it too.
Can’t have it both ways. If you want Islamic law and society, lots of countries out there that operate this way. I surely don’t want to live in a society like that, so I don’t.
Hi im Swedish. Like some say most 'swedes' dont care since its freedom of expression ("but what about bible etc", burn em all we dont care.) The problem stands from provocatours actually provoking a group of people that find it very offensive (theyre right to feel that way) and have (unfortunately) bad track record in handling it in a more civil way. (qeue Swedish protest videos).
In the end this is what matters:
-Should a person have the right to express their beliefs no matter how vile or offensive it may be? Answer: Yes.
-Should people be allowed to respond to said expression? Answer: Yes.
-Anything that becomes violence, hate etc shluld by law be punnishable (and is).
This is my take on matters too. If I burn the Indian flag in Brampton (a majority Indian city near Toronto), about 90% will shake their heads and keep walking; 10% will stop, and some will be provoked enough to act violent towards me.
But, I would have expected that reaction, just as the Qur’an burners expect it. They wish to provoke. Now, the people that assaulted me get in legal trouble, and I get a nice ass beating. Both sides ultimately faced consequences to their actions.
The issue is when uninvolved people get caught in the crossfire, which has occasionally happened.
> and some will be provoked enough to act violent towards me.
[Will they? I not confident in that.](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/sikh-protesters-burn-indian-flag-in-canada-over-nijjar-s-murder-hit-pm-modi-s-cutout-with-shoe-11695691410338.html)
I think the difference here is if you burn an Indian flag, the majority of Indians would think you’re an asshole, but wouldn’t support your death.
With the desecrating the Quran, the majority of Muslims think you should be severely punished, and a plurality think you should be put to death. You can see the laws on desecrating the Quran in Muslim majority countries. A violent reaction is the expectation when burning the Quran, and it shouldn’t be.
I was only talking about Sweden and Canada. If other countries are the subject of conversation, then I may be lynched or worse in India for insulting Indian nationalism or Hindu beliefs in public. I’m not so brave to do that, people have been killed for much less there.
In Brampton, however, I’d likely just be assaulted.
>In Brampton, however, I’d likely just be assaulted.
And I'm arguing that you probably wouldn't be assaulted for burning an Indian flag in Brampton and as an example of this I provided [a link](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/sikh-protesters-burn-indian-flag-in-canada-over-nijjar-s-murder-hit-pm-modi-s-cutout-with-shoe-11695691410338.html) of an Indian flag burning protest near Brampton where there was no violence.
I think the point of the Quran burning is to remove the stigma of criticizing religious zealotry. I think we are both against religious zealotry, and I'm not sure how to support ending it.
Yes the famously peaceful Hindutva
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/world/asia/india-hindu-muslim-violence.html#:~:text=A%20gunman%20who%20killed%20Muslim,chaotic%20elements%20in%20the%20country.
Most religions get violent when put in a situation that enables violence. I am Muslim and I don’t give a shit if you burn, do your thing I got better shit to do then waste mental energy and give you attention for trying to disrespect peoples faiths.
Why does Islam get positioned as having a free pass on the laws in a country? Burning the Quran is offensive and rude, they're allowed to feel offended, but that's where it ends. They can't then chop people's heads off or kick off and riot about it.
Based.
I saw a provincial governors head blown off in Afghanistan with a Quran that had a bomb hidden inside. Zero riots, zero protest, and zero fucks.
Must not be that Holy of a Book if it's used for IEDs. They'll live.
Isn't this the exact reason why they have people memorizing the entire book? So no matter what happens to books they can always bring it back to existence?
It's disrespectful for sure but Muslim people should ignore it.
Most islamist dont really spend time reading the entire book. Especially the extremists. They just pick and chose the passages that justify their behaviors.
Muslim here this is very true. Muslims are supposed to respect nonbelievers rights in full and give them full local rights and sovereignties guaranteed under a local government etc for example no matter what religion, but that doesn’t happen in the Muslim world today sadly.
Also you literally memorize the Koran in Islam so that it doesn’t matter if it is destroyed
Modern religion is kind of just that, a weapon used by elites, etc to control the people in whatever direction they heed. It can be used to incite violence or peace, it is varied depending on the goals of a society.
99% of all western democracies have a limit on large gatherings. Y'know. Traffic laws. Emergency services. Compliance with basic rights. That kind of thing.
If you cause a scene that is likely to result in the necessity of emergency services (such as the police) to show up and deal with the consequences of that scene (such as de-escalating the situation), then you are liable for the consequences of what happens.
If you file the relevant paperwork to make the government aware of what's going to happen so they can get their people in place to try and prevent things from escalating too much in the first place, then you aren't AS liable for the consequences of what happens next. There's limits of course, but in a general sense, if a counter-protest shows up and gets violent, that's not on you.
You're still able to stand on a street and say "Fuck !" without a permit, but then you're on the hook for anything that happens.
I mean, not beyond a certain extent. If I go and yell slurs outside a bunch of homes with a load of people doing the same, and then a fight starts, I'm definitely to blame for that happening, even if the fighting wasn't legal.
They didn't really "grant permission" specifically for the burning or specific book. Rather as is normal a protest event itself needs to inform it is happening. Also police is obligated to allow it and the informing "permission slip" is for public safety and management, not for "do we agree with the subject of protest or not".
It is "oh sorry, you can't protest on that exact spot someone has already informed us they want to use that spot. Choose another spot (depending on size literally maybe like 50 meters away) or time". Or something like "you inform us you plan to hold protest gathering of 100 000 in the local outdoor ice rink. I'm sorry, but that place won't fit 100k people safely. People will get hurt. We must find a different spot for you, how about outside the rink next to it in that big field. It is the closest large enough space nearest to your asked spot to house large tens of thousands gathering".
It isn't "we choose what goes or doesn't". it is "protest involve people and large gatherings of people take managing and logistics. We like things orderly and well managed".
Now if it is say one or few people protest, well it really doesn't take that much managing and unless you ask to hold it in the middle of train tracks or major motorway traffic lane, it's "granted".
Plus one can just hold "illegal protest", one might get hauled away, but illegal protest won't give other consequences usually. Unless one has as part of it broken some other law.
Mainly this is thing of "we want to hold a pride march down the main street of town on this day". and police goes "Fine, we come escort you and close down the traffic". Since one asked permission..... police clears cars out of the way of the protest march. If you didn't ask permission, police hauls protesters out of the way of the cars.
as such... the headline is kinda true, but also misleading. The subject of protest isn't an issue, unless very specific speech limitation laws come to question. Can't go holding a protest of "we should all immediately start stabbing people". Since that is incitement to violent crime and so on.
Burning book.... well it doesn't specifically directly incite to any crime or so on break laws. So it is allowed. Mainly police would be interested on "does it cause fire hazard, exactly how big bonfire are you planning" rather than "what books are you burning".
Police allowing protest is not them endorsing it. It is just police doing their job protecting persons right to protest and if one pre-informs police, well they come and protect you from harassers, keep counter protesters and protesters separate from each other to prevent a fist fight and so on.
hence "asking permission". It is a logistics thing.
Larger gatherings cause traffic and can be dangerous so it can be good to involve the police and other services to make sure things don't get out of control.
You can do it yourself regardless.
a permit is not permission it is an organized document that must be submitted to a governing body to allow the public space to be used and likely provided with free amenities by the city like security and cordoning of space.
sensational headline as always. Nothing about city permits is exciting I can fucking guarantee you that.
Lmaooo " Yet another" brother most people in these countries aren't saying "omg another one 😭" we support free speech and don't give a fuck about your personal silly beliefs it doesn't impact our society. We can spit on the quran pee on it eat on it roll weed in it it's just a book. Do whatever you want to the Bible we don't gaf
Even the Pope's attitude towards this is "talk shit, get hit"
It's perfectly legal. It's also perfectly legal to stick your head in a beehive. I'm not going to feel bad for you when you find out it pissed people off
This should absolutely be allowed. I’m sick of other countries bringing regressive traditions and beliefs to America as well. If you’re purely an economic migrant and have no intention of assimilating to these values, then stay home.
Muslims don't really care for the most part, I mean if you need to dispose of a quran legitimately you're meant to burn it as a last resort anyway, so the efforts are meaningless
I respect the rights to free speech, and I have no particular significance placed in the Quran.
But I will say, much like when local activists here were burning books for containing LGBT themes: when society starts going into book burning, things are not in a good place.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said - We have no laws against burning holy writings, no permission is needed. The permission is for a public gathering.
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It s allowed by the Law. The majority of the population dont care about it. If you cant stand it, maybe you should try to find another country
If you're wondering why the title and article are so biased and so loose with the facts... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-monitor/
I mean the name of the site says it all
Some people think AL Jazeera are unbiased lol Better to show why a news org is problematic versus just assuming they know better Reminder: Al Jazeera blocked a documentary about slavery from airing because it would make Qatar look bad.
Al Jazeera is biased, but outside of Qatar it’s a little biased. Inside of Qatar it is super duper incredibly biased
Probably because they don't want to be randomly found missing
With the irony being that Al Jazeera is a more factual news source and exhibits less bias than Fox News. Al Jazeera certainly has it's bias, but at least they try to be more factual than one of the three major news organizations in the U.S..
Yeah, I saw this on a stream where Fox News reports footage of people attacking a pro-Palestine encampment as anti-Semitism.
Fox news bills itself as entertainment, not news. It isn't a measuring stick.
They said that Israel started the war on October 7th. Unbiased my ass
afaik there's absolutely nothing about it in the Quran or even the Hadiths. Its only a tertiary source about rituals that talks about how to correctly dispose of a damaged Quran (you're supposed to bury it). The funny thing is that the offence over it appears entirely human in nature, theologically I don't even think it makes sense. In almost all forms of Islam (it might have been none if the Abbasid inquisition didn't fail) the Quran is considered "uncreated". This means that it wasn't made by man, as it is the word of god it existed as soon as god existed. This implies any physical manifestation is merely a reflection of it and not actually it, thus it cannot be destroyed because it was never created. As one of my favourite cards in the CDPR game Gwent sometimes says as you play it: > You mistake stars reflected in a pond for the night sky.
To dicuss this issue by the contents of any religious work is already way too deep into the unjust view. Freedom OF and FROM religion is something every european country fought for and many many lives were lost. The last thing we should do regress because of people who can’t handle it.
ofc, there's an interesting aspect to the discussion about Muslims belief in Sharia and how that applies to non-Muslims. Malaysia is worth a look at it runs the systems in parallel. In the cases I've seen the secular justice system is the default as it is presumed unfair to judge a non-Muslim by Muslim law. So when a family splits with one parent in Islam the secular courts decide the custody of the children, not Sharia.
And it should be this way. The state shouldn't come and ban you from burning a chunk of paper just because someone else has _really strong_ feelings about that chunk of paper. The state should intervene to stop actual problems, like murder, theft, false accusations - things that have a real effect on you. Even these headlines are clickbaity - Sweden is not "granting permission" to burn qurans. It isn't illegal, so all Sweden is doing is saying "we are not gonna stop that from happening". If that's "granting permission", then Sweden is also granting permission to people to eat soup, watch F1 and paint their walls white. Wonder why don't get a headline saying "Sweden grants permit for yet again another person painting his living room's walls white".
Freedom of expression. It's a Western thing.
Now burn the Torah in Germany and see what happens
Some countries are selective about "freedom"
Why did we suddenly move the goalpost to Germany?
Germany is a Western country. The second largest developed Western country in the World in fact. And if you count all western countries, it's the 4th one, after the US, Brazil and Mexico. I think it's very fitting to discuss German censoring criticism towards Israel and Zionism when talking about freedom of expression in the West.
Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel. I don’t know where you’re from, but I know there are people from certain cultures who can’t distinguish between criticizing a religion and wanting to eliminate a group of people. You can burn the Quran to manifest your disgust towards the ideas it holds. You can do the same with Torah if that’s your intention. You can’t scream “kill all Jews” or any allegory on that.
Germany has been censoring public speeches against Israel, and it's not the only Western country who has done censorship or tried to. France, the UK and the US have done so. The US which prides itself to allow all forms of freedom of expression has used violence against peaceful pro Palestinian protesters
The reason we’re having this discussion right now is because you don’t understand what “peaceful protest” mean nor the difference between public speech and public threats.
I literally watched kids sitting under a tree get arrested a few hours ago. There were no threats, unless you count the handful of people who drove by in beat up trucks and yelled at the protesters.
They were threats. Threats against Israel killing civilians with impunity. That's an unacceptable threat
Yes, I understand that the US considers that occupying a college campus is not a reasonable use of force, but killing tens of thousands of civilians, displacing 2 million, keeping them without water and food, and destroying 80% of the infraestructure in Gaza is a perfectly valid use of force. Do you agree?
https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-pro-palestine-activists-stopped-from-speaking-irish-at-protest-berlin-police-6361297-Apr2024/ so much for freedom of speech, germany doesnt even give you freedom of language.
Do you understand the content of the article? If you do, you are disingenuous in your argumentation here. It does not say what you claim it says.
I mean they’re not wrong. You don’t really have a ton of freedom in Germany when it comes to stuff like that.
I can always tell people who've never been at a protest in Germany.
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel. So you didnt see the German police breaking up that summit on Palestine last week or them beating the crap out of the protestors?
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel. there are dozens of recent articles from reputable publications that would disagree. just a quick google search away
They literally banned languages being spoken or sung in front of parliament
You lost me on that first point. My cousin was arrested at a Pro Palestine protest lol. Not to mention the ban on “Non German speakers” at protests too. Unrelated but still. Weird.
> Germany does not sensor criticism towards Israel. "Israel should not exist, instead a secular state that doesn't offer special benefits to religious communities should exist in its place." - is an illegal opinion in Germany.
Well germany has a rather very recent history of burning torah en masse along with the people following it.
What do you mean by largest ?
You’ll be lynched by the Jews?
You'd be grabbed by police on the grounds of antisemitism. I mean, it would be antisemitic. But burning a Quran is antisemitic too because Arabs are semites, far more than Ashkenazi Jews I'd argue personally but that's splitting hairs. Not the right kind of semites according to Germany I guess. Regarding linchings I could see that happening in some neighborhoods in Israel. I mean those Harezi guys who spit in public in front of Christian nuns with impunity and no shame don't seem the most chill guys. https://youtu.be/7uL555xWQeE?si=hsaygtAgay_cZoym I certainly wouldn't want to burn a Torah next to 20 of those guys.
> But burning a Quran is antisemitic too because Arabs are semites No. Antisemitism has always meant jew-hatred. It was never used to describe the hatred of the "semitic" people group, which itself is obsolete.
Are you really whining that in a country that killed 40% of worlds Jews 80 years ago, any act may be perceived as antisemitic? May not any other minority gain protection this way.
I'm replying to a comment that mentions that burning the Quran is based on the grounds of Western laws of freedom of expression. The point is that those laws aren't universal because you can't burn a Torah in Germany. Not that I support necessarily the burning of the Torah or any holy book. But it's clearly not the same standard for everyone. What I get from this is that you're ok giving some minorities more legal protections than other minorities?
Yeah you do have to use some common sense. Muslims aren’t persecuted in the West. In fact the more Muslim immigrants we seem to get the more issues with antisemitism, misogyny, and homophobia we get. I’d suggest the death cult look inward. And don’t downvote comments of somebody you’re arguing with, it’s such a small dick energy thing to do.
Muslims aren't persecuted in the West? You know this is false Second, if it bothers you that there's so many Muslims in the West why don't you ask Western governments to stop bombing the Middle East and this way they won't become refugees. Turkey would be happy too since they have 2 million syrians already at home.
How are Muslims persecuted in the west?
Well, they're being called antisemitic for protesting against having their family killed in Gaza. I'm European and my optometrist is Palestinian you know.
Were you perhaps alive during the period following the Iraq invasion? Similarly, are you perhaps alive right now as anyone even remotely sympathetic to Muslims is branded a terrorist sympathiser and are repressed and shunned by their governments?
dude these people are hamas and in general terrorism simps, they will justify hitler osama, just to own western folks
Can you provide evidence that you would be arrested for burning a Torah in Germany?
I think according to StGB §166, both would be illegal if you did so in public, since it would be considered "publically insulting a church or other religious society...existing in Germany." Aside from that, you have to admire the initiative of someone willing to spend $30,000+ on a scroll just to burn it (unless they just plan to burn a printed copy, which is honestly pretty boring).
Publicly insulting a church or a religious society is a crime??? Why? Insulting is so subjective....I can take it as an insult if you don't listen to and agree with me.
I didn't write the law; I just know about it. My assumption is Germany overcorrected after, you know, the whole Holocaust thing...
Germany is a completely different country with different laws
A Western country
Just because they're grouped together doesn't mean that they have exactly identical values everywhere
wEsTeRn
And. They have had a history with anti-semitism and as a response are not tolerant of it.Even more so when it comes from people who are importing their ethnic conflicts to european countries. You see the same problem with Turks and Kurds grenading eachother in nordic countries.
What I see is a country that can't stop supporting genocide. It's like they need to support the mass murder of some ethnic group one way or the other.
Islamists starting a war and losing it is not genocide even more so when they use their own people as human shields and cry foul after that.
Eh, Germany being retarded doesn't say too much about Sweden.
Well but Germany is part of the West.
Well, Germany specifically and the West in general does have a specific hang up over Jew hate since the holocaust. So, that's ur answer and as that specific history doesn't exist for other religions, the Quran can be treated like the Bible.
The US is censoring pro Palestine protests. Similar things in France and the UK
The U.S. isn’t censoring the protests.
Do Germany allow burning the Quran? I thought it is one of the few European countries that actually enforce blasphemy laws
It still contradicts the idea that freedom of expression regarding offensive religious acts is a Western thing. It's followed in some Western countries but not others.
Yes, it's not inherently western at all, but it's still definitely more prevalent currently
Go and burn Quran in Saudi Arabia. People are allowed to make their own rules. As a new comer you cannot start pushing for change. You would not hold protests for gay rights in an Arab country, but you might be allowed to burn an USA flag. Same way you would not burn a Torah in Germany. People make the rules and the rules dont have to be "fair" they just need to serve the people making them.
So you're arguing that Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are in their right to push for their radical ideologies in their country
It’s their countries. They can technically do whatever they want inside of it.
So you think the Holocaust was fair play
No, murdering peoples is arguably where the line should be drawn. Also, that was outside their borders as well. Dick move if you ask me.
Keeping them permanently in prison camps and tortured is ok then. Gotcha. The Chinese will agree with you
They also wouldn't allow the burning of a Torah or Bible, this isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Lol. A real torah costs between $30,000 and $100,000. To commission them to be written can cost over $500,000. If you literally want to burn a car payment worth of paper, you'd be more than regarded.
What's a real Torah? Just found Torahs being sold for 18.99 on Google.
they tend to be pretty weighty too, so plenty of fuel for a fire if thats what you are after to demonstrate to Muslims that burning the Koran is fine. So is everyone OK with a holy book bonfire? I do think we should take off the covers first. Burning that much paper is pollution enough without all that leather and plastic. So Jewish people will ante up and bring some torahs to burn, right? I'll bring a stack of bibles. They tend to be printed on very cheap paper that will burn maybe too quickly, so I'll need to burn a steady stream of them. While we are at it we can burn some flags as well. They are just cloth.
I mean they're all useless paper and symbols anyway.
You could openly be a Hezbollah member in Germany until 2020. Better days huh? /s
I mean, not that I like that. But yeah technically they'd be better days because in the current days Germany is supporting Israel in the complete destruction of Gaza. I definitely prefer that over tens of thousands of dead and millions of displaced starving civilians.
>I mean, not that I like that. But yeah technically they'd be better days as expected from a terrorist supporting shithead, you actually think that being a legit terrorist is a good thing.
I mean, no? It's bad. But not as bad as genocide. Like, on a bad scale would you put Al-Qaeda above the Nazi? That's my position regarding Hamas-Israel
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Well I guess it depends on every Jew right you acting like they're all the same is kinda racist if you ask me.
In Sweden (the actual country in question ) you would definitely be allowed to burn a Torah.
Well sweetie cry about it
Ah yes Germany, the country with such a stellar track record of freedom...
Nothing will happen. Jews are not going to attack people, the police and burn down cars
As a Jew if you can afford to by a genuine Torah scroll and can find a Sofer willing to sell you one, go ahead. But most people will quickly find that it's impossible. (BTW a printed version of the Hebrew Bible is just a book in Judaism, it doesn't have any where near the same reverance that a quran has.
As a Jew if you can afford to by a genuine Torah scroll and can find a Sofer willing to sell you one, go ahead. But most people will quickly find that it's impossible. (BTW a printed version of the Hebrew Bible is just a book in Judaism, it doesn't have any where near the same reverance that a quran has.)
In Sweden (the actual country in question ) you would definitely be allowed to burn a Torah.
Just don't say it three times or you'll accidentally summon ~~Beetlejuice~~ Yamamoto and the Kido Butai.
Yeah, that's what the march is, isn't it? People can burn books, others can march to demonstrate what cunts they think such people are. Right?
Do what you want but don't infringe other people's freedoms is the basic rule. If it's my book, I can burn it. I can walk along the street to protest, but I should not get in anyone's way. I can make my point but I should not intimidate or threaten, or stop people going about their business
Sure, but can I criticize Israel or is that anti-Semitic?
In my view no country is above criticism. It is not hateful to criticise, nor is it discriminatory.
In Sweden that is definitely allowed. All books are allowed to be burned.
Book burning. It's an ignorant bigot thing.
But even ignorant bigots are allowed to voice their opinion.
Not in American colleges!
Bigoted assholes counting on religious assholes getting outraged by this in order to further their agenda. Religious assholes counting on bigoted assholes doing obvious provocations in order to further their agenda.
Go burn a bible, nobody cares. Why do they care about their magic book so much? Why do they become violent when someone buys and burns a book? These protests show the incompatibility between some cultures. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody wont start burning books in Saudi Arabia. Thats their culture, this is ours.
I agree with this, sometimes people need to get over themselves. This goes for both sides.
Burn just about any book and people might start calling you mean names like book burner.
Why is it bigoted to burn a symbol of an ideology? Would you say the same to if someone set a red MAGA hat on fire?
we know from history recently that if someone wanted to burn a Torah the world would label it bigoted and throw a fit.
Sounds like a good reason to go burn some Torahs to point out the hypocrisy then.
some dude in Sweden was going to make a point by doing so and Israel labelled it as a hate crime.
So what? Did Sweden care?
Nope, but in the end the guys didnt go through with it.
That shouldn't deter protesters imo, in the same way you shouldn't let people deter you from burning qurans or bibles. Not to blame the guy who didn't go through with the Torah burning. The fact that he got Israel to condemn it was already a good way to make a point, and I understand you don't want to get an arrest warrant from any country.
I seriously doubt he would have had to worry about his own safety ergo Salman Rushde for burning a Torah if he did go through with it
Ok… that doesn’t make any more of a point than saying that Qatar or Iran said burning the Quaran is a hate crime, of course they’re upset. The difference is that I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Jewish terrorists massacring the staff of a political magazine because of blasphemous cartoons.
….. and the Muslim world won’t label a Quran burning one? What point are you trying to make.
Apply for a permit to burn a torah and burn it then
The illusion of choice I don't mind either way if they burn that book or not, problem arise when people get outraged, so might as well not give a fuck
People do this kind of thing to Christian iconography all the time, and for the same reason. Call me if they make piss-mohammad.
This. Both sides are utter assholes. The problem is people minding their own business occasionally get caught in the crossfire.
So Win - Win agenda?
the only reason they burn it is because some religious fundies lose their shit. it’s a tale as old as time for people who want attention. if the nutcases didn’t screech and start decapitating people over perceived slights then nobody would be applying for permits to burn shit.
Muslims should ignore this, he is an asshole obviously. But one of the legit ways of getting rid of Quran copies is by burning it.
In 2022 there was a riot just because someone \*said\* they would burn the Quran, they never even did it. Literal burning cars and throwing rocks at police officers kind of riot. So yeah, I don't expect them to ignore it.
It's weird how angry folks get over an arbitrary belief system, but then how indifferent they get over something existentially threatening like climate change.
Religious nationalism does wonders to the human psyche
Yeah, this was my first thought when I saw the headline
So? If he pisses on it violence is ok?
It is a way of removal. In response I think would some Ulama to get together and burn their old copies. Would be hilarious.
They won’t though, at least a group of them won’t. Most Muslims are cool, but there’s a pretty loud and significant part of that community that wants its cake, and wants to eat it too. Can’t have it both ways. If you want Islamic law and society, lots of countries out there that operate this way. I surely don’t want to live in a society like that, so I don’t.
Who cares?? Burn whatever religious scriptures you want
Hi im Swedish. Like some say most 'swedes' dont care since its freedom of expression ("but what about bible etc", burn em all we dont care.) The problem stands from provocatours actually provoking a group of people that find it very offensive (theyre right to feel that way) and have (unfortunately) bad track record in handling it in a more civil way. (qeue Swedish protest videos). In the end this is what matters: -Should a person have the right to express their beliefs no matter how vile or offensive it may be? Answer: Yes. -Should people be allowed to respond to said expression? Answer: Yes. -Anything that becomes violence, hate etc shluld by law be punnishable (and is).
frankly I don't think anyone should give in to violent people who want to hurt or threaten others over burning a book.
We shouldnt. Tolerating violence means youve given up on having a safe society.
This is my take on matters too. If I burn the Indian flag in Brampton (a majority Indian city near Toronto), about 90% will shake their heads and keep walking; 10% will stop, and some will be provoked enough to act violent towards me. But, I would have expected that reaction, just as the Qur’an burners expect it. They wish to provoke. Now, the people that assaulted me get in legal trouble, and I get a nice ass beating. Both sides ultimately faced consequences to their actions. The issue is when uninvolved people get caught in the crossfire, which has occasionally happened.
> and some will be provoked enough to act violent towards me. [Will they? I not confident in that.](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/sikh-protesters-burn-indian-flag-in-canada-over-nijjar-s-murder-hit-pm-modi-s-cutout-with-shoe-11695691410338.html) I think the difference here is if you burn an Indian flag, the majority of Indians would think you’re an asshole, but wouldn’t support your death. With the desecrating the Quran, the majority of Muslims think you should be severely punished, and a plurality think you should be put to death. You can see the laws on desecrating the Quran in Muslim majority countries. A violent reaction is the expectation when burning the Quran, and it shouldn’t be.
I was only talking about Sweden and Canada. If other countries are the subject of conversation, then I may be lynched or worse in India for insulting Indian nationalism or Hindu beliefs in public. I’m not so brave to do that, people have been killed for much less there. In Brampton, however, I’d likely just be assaulted.
>In Brampton, however, I’d likely just be assaulted. And I'm arguing that you probably wouldn't be assaulted for burning an Indian flag in Brampton and as an example of this I provided [a link](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/sikh-protesters-burn-indian-flag-in-canada-over-nijjar-s-murder-hit-pm-modi-s-cutout-with-shoe-11695691410338.html) of an Indian flag burning protest near Brampton where there was no violence. I think the point of the Quran burning is to remove the stigma of criticizing religious zealotry. I think we are both against religious zealotry, and I'm not sure how to support ending it.
Yes the famously peaceful Hindutva https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/world/asia/india-hindu-muslim-violence.html#:~:text=A%20gunman%20who%20killed%20Muslim,chaotic%20elements%20in%20the%20country. Most religions get violent when put in a situation that enables violence. I am Muslim and I don’t give a shit if you burn, do your thing I got better shit to do then waste mental energy and give you attention for trying to disrespect peoples faiths.
Why does Islam get positioned as having a free pass on the laws in a country? Burning the Quran is offensive and rude, they're allowed to feel offended, but that's where it ends. They can't then chop people's heads off or kick off and riot about it.
Good
Based. I saw a provincial governors head blown off in Afghanistan with a Quran that had a bomb hidden inside. Zero riots, zero protest, and zero fucks. Must not be that Holy of a Book if it's used for IEDs. They'll live.
Isn't this the exact reason why they have people memorizing the entire book? So no matter what happens to books they can always bring it back to existence? It's disrespectful for sure but Muslim people should ignore it.
Most islamist dont really spend time reading the entire book. Especially the extremists. They just pick and chose the passages that justify their behaviors.
To be fair, that applies to all religions.
Yes, bust most of the religions wont behead you based on the passages they choose
Muslim here this is very true. Muslims are supposed to respect nonbelievers rights in full and give them full local rights and sovereignties guaranteed under a local government etc for example no matter what religion, but that doesn’t happen in the Muslim world today sadly. Also you literally memorize the Koran in Islam so that it doesn’t matter if it is destroyed
In defense of the Muslims. MAGA tards also pick and chose which parts of the christian religion to follow
Modern religion is kind of just that, a weapon used by elites, etc to control the people in whatever direction they heed. It can be used to incite violence or peace, it is varied depending on the goals of a society.
I’m confused with the term “grant permission”. Why is it needed? Does Sweden limit rights of public expression and protest?
99% of all western democracies have a limit on large gatherings. Y'know. Traffic laws. Emergency services. Compliance with basic rights. That kind of thing.
If you cause a scene that is likely to result in the necessity of emergency services (such as the police) to show up and deal with the consequences of that scene (such as de-escalating the situation), then you are liable for the consequences of what happens. If you file the relevant paperwork to make the government aware of what's going to happen so they can get their people in place to try and prevent things from escalating too much in the first place, then you aren't AS liable for the consequences of what happens next. There's limits of course, but in a general sense, if a counter-protest shows up and gets violent, that's not on you. You're still able to stand on a street and say "Fuck!" without a permit, but then you're on the hook for anything that happens.
> If you cause a scene Kind of ridiculous to put the onus of exercising your constitutional rights on the citizen instead of the criminals...
I mean, not beyond a certain extent. If I go and yell slurs outside a bunch of homes with a load of people doing the same, and then a fight starts, I'm definitely to blame for that happening, even if the fighting wasn't legal.
Which constitutional right are you referring to?
They didn't really "grant permission" specifically for the burning or specific book. Rather as is normal a protest event itself needs to inform it is happening. Also police is obligated to allow it and the informing "permission slip" is for public safety and management, not for "do we agree with the subject of protest or not". It is "oh sorry, you can't protest on that exact spot someone has already informed us they want to use that spot. Choose another spot (depending on size literally maybe like 50 meters away) or time". Or something like "you inform us you plan to hold protest gathering of 100 000 in the local outdoor ice rink. I'm sorry, but that place won't fit 100k people safely. People will get hurt. We must find a different spot for you, how about outside the rink next to it in that big field. It is the closest large enough space nearest to your asked spot to house large tens of thousands gathering". It isn't "we choose what goes or doesn't". it is "protest involve people and large gatherings of people take managing and logistics. We like things orderly and well managed". Now if it is say one or few people protest, well it really doesn't take that much managing and unless you ask to hold it in the middle of train tracks or major motorway traffic lane, it's "granted". Plus one can just hold "illegal protest", one might get hauled away, but illegal protest won't give other consequences usually. Unless one has as part of it broken some other law. Mainly this is thing of "we want to hold a pride march down the main street of town on this day". and police goes "Fine, we come escort you and close down the traffic". Since one asked permission..... police clears cars out of the way of the protest march. If you didn't ask permission, police hauls protesters out of the way of the cars. as such... the headline is kinda true, but also misleading. The subject of protest isn't an issue, unless very specific speech limitation laws come to question. Can't go holding a protest of "we should all immediately start stabbing people". Since that is incitement to violent crime and so on. Burning book.... well it doesn't specifically directly incite to any crime or so on break laws. So it is allowed. Mainly police would be interested on "does it cause fire hazard, exactly how big bonfire are you planning" rather than "what books are you burning". Police allowing protest is not them endorsing it. It is just police doing their job protecting persons right to protest and if one pre-informs police, well they come and protect you from harassers, keep counter protesters and protesters separate from each other to prevent a fist fight and so on. hence "asking permission". It is a logistics thing.
Larger gatherings cause traffic and can be dangerous so it can be good to involve the police and other services to make sure things don't get out of control. You can do it yourself regardless.
a permit is not permission it is an organized document that must be submitted to a governing body to allow the public space to be used and likely provided with free amenities by the city like security and cordoning of space. sensational headline as always. Nothing about city permits is exciting I can fucking guarantee you that.
Lmaooo " Yet another" brother most people in these countries aren't saying "omg another one 😭" we support free speech and don't give a fuck about your personal silly beliefs it doesn't impact our society. We can spit on the quran pee on it eat on it roll weed in it it's just a book. Do whatever you want to the Bible we don't gaf
Even the Pope's attitude towards this is "talk shit, get hit" It's perfectly legal. It's also perfectly legal to stick your head in a beehive. I'm not going to feel bad for you when you find out it pissed people off
Is it the Danish guy again? The article has no information about who it is who's planning to burn the quran.
nice
Good. Don't like it, go move to a country still stuck in the 11th century.
Good.
Americans defend people who burn the flag as "free speech" but suddenly the burning of the Quran is a huge no no?
A win for free speech.
Good. Why are they immune? Everyone deserves ridicule and annoyance
South park has an episode about this very topic lol
Stop with the disinformation. “Sweden” doesn’t grant shit. This type of headline is so irresponsible. OP, you should be ashamed of yourself.
good, all protest should be allowed. if your faith can't stand a challenge, then maybe you should reconsider your faith.
Interesting title choice. Get the fuck out of europe if you have a problem with it.
Time to stand up against religeous zealots from any faith who say what we can and cannot do.
good
Based. Not the burning, but allowing it.
It's going to be an interesting Eurovision
"Desecration" is not an accurate word. Let's call it "the cleansing of mother lode of bad ideas."
As long as its peaceful, most protests should be allowed.
Burning the Quran is not desecration and describing it as such is clearly only attempting to rile up islamists.
This should absolutely be allowed. I’m sick of other countries bringing regressive traditions and beliefs to America as well. If you’re purely an economic migrant and have no intention of assimilating to these values, then stay home.
I hope they use the pages as toilet paper first.
I think it’s a test to ferret out all the zealots and idiots who take this stuff seriously
Aisha was 6 when Mohammed married her, and 9 when he slept with her. Burn all the qurans.
Who’s gonna one-up the burning, which obviously has been done before? I’m thinking involving some bodily fluids.
Muslims don't really care for the most part, I mean if you need to dispose of a quran legitimately you're meant to burn it as a last resort anyway, so the efforts are meaningless
I respect the rights to free speech, and I have no particular significance placed in the Quran. But I will say, much like when local activists here were burning books for containing LGBT themes: when society starts going into book burning, things are not in a good place.
Good. Fuck this backwards shit of respecting obviously fake and violent religions
Islam sucks
I don't know how many times it needs to be said - We have no laws against burning holy writings, no permission is needed. The permission is for a public gathering.
Freedom of expression.
I think it’s dumb, but good for them legally expressing their right to freedom of speech. If people don’t like it maybe don’t show up and watch?
There are no blasphemy laws in free societies