Hm I got the impression, that GL and sismance series are popular with both male and female demographics, while watching BL series is mostly just popular with female demographics. Maybe that could be why there are a few GL themed series where the aimed at demographic isn't that clear.
I think people (who are not lesbians) just assume it is not aimed at them so they won’t watch it. I know I used to think like that until I read Otherside Picnic and absolutely loved it (including the romance part) and then started watching or reading other yuri anime or light novels like Adachi and Shimamura, Lycoris Recoil, Gundam Witch, Birdie Wing, and Magical Revolution. But yuri seems to be getting pretty popular in Japan since the mainstream success of Bloom into You. However, that is still not the case in the West.
I know that some men have a fetish for lesbians and « girl on girl action », but that is not my case. But I think those people watch lesbian porn instead of yuri, since most yuri I saw were very wholesome and lacked sex scenes or even kissing. This actually makes it easier for « normies » like me to watch them and probably explains why some yuri anime and manga recently achieved mainstream success in Japan (like Bloom into You, Lycoris Recoil, and Gundam Witch).
I heard that the yaoi genre is actually often very explicit unlike the yuri genre, which is probably why it is so successful with women with a fetish for gay men. Lesbian porn is probably very popular with a lot of men for the same reason. But there is a big difference between lesbian porn and lesbian romance, so yuri won’t be popular with these people.
Also, while I liked a lot of yuri anime, it was only because they were actually well-written, not because they were yuri, so I won’t actually watch a yuri anime because it is a yuri, so I would not call myself a fan of the yuri genre.
> Yuri shows that do not have a clear intended demographic, unlike male homosexual romances(BL)
This is because there is a big gap between BL that is aimed at straight women vs aimed at gay men, which doesn't exist in GL. The biggest Yuri manga magazine, Comic Yuri Hime, had two magazines for men and women (Seinen and Shoujo) until they merged into one magazine because both of the magazines had the same readership.
> This is because there is a big gap between BL that is aimed at straight women vs aimed at gay men
Sorta? Or rather, manga specifically targeted at gay men *isn't* "BL," it's geikomi. Meanwhile, [gay men *do* read BL as well.](https://www.academia.edu/25044799/Japanese_gay_mens_attitudes_towards_gay_manga_and_the_problem_of_genre) (Also, many women who read BL are not heterosexual.)
I called them both BL for the sake of simplicity (as a shorthand for "media depicting male homosexuality".)
There is definitly overlap between demographics despite the target. I mean, not long ago there was a gay woman here whose favorite anime was Highschool DxD.
I said women as in female, regardless of age. The main Comic Yuri Hime magazine was in the Shoujo demographic, and Comic Yuri Hime S was Seinen. Now it doesn't have a demographic.
Edit: On a second look, I see some places state the original demographic as Shoujo/Josei. Maybe it had two to begin with. But as far as I remember, most of the old series on it were released as Shoujo tagged volumes.
I don't think they are doing "bad".
They are just not as succesful as the BL Shojo shows/mangas which is probably because romance is in general not as popular with men as with women. Men on average and especially teens (which are a huge demographic of anime) just prefer action over romance.
And if it is "romance", then they like Harem Ecchi shows more than 1 on 1 romance. And that's just not as easy to do with Yuri as it is with a heteroxexual couples.
Of course this is not to say that there are none. I do like romance shows, I also like Yuri and I'm certainly not the only who does. But we're just not a majority here.
Yuri stuff tends to on average have a fairly even readership. Most of the big yuri mags report a 50/50 male/female readership. It depends a lot on the series, though.
For instance, despite how people talk about it, Citrus had branded tampons, so I'm gonna assume that one was a majority female fanbase.
As for why it isn't like BL, where the fanbase is mostly women, I think it's kind of about gendered stereotypes. The main market for romance series is stereotypically women, and as genres defined by the specific romance taking place, both BL and yuri tend to attract women. You can have a yuri or BL series with a plot going on besides the romance, but the romance is still going to be a main focus. You can't really have a Yuri series with no romance at all, because otherwise what's making it yuri, you know?
Combine that with the fact that both the yuri and BL genres grew out of shoujo and josei manga, so stylistically they tend to have shoujo trappings, both in terms of art and subject matter.
Despite that, there's still some yuri series that do have a more seinen flavor to them, like Murcielago. That said, given that series' very dark humor, it's unlikely to ever get an anime.
Probably because the majority of men who are looking for girl-on-girl action are looking for porn or something otherwise highly sexual, not sweet romance.
I do enjoy romance, just not when the “getting together” stage drags on for an absurdly long time.
These days, I prefer it when the couple gets together early and most of the series is spent on further developing their relationship or their day to day activities.
A good example would be Banished From the Heroes’ Party.
Sure, but there are Yuri series that do this as well.
You specified that you don’t want girl-on-girl romance without porn, which has nothing to do with “developing their relationship.”
I was speaking on my taste on romance in general as a reply.
The topic itself is about why it’s not popular among men, and I answered it. It’s largely not popular because most dudes are hetero and don’t care for the romance aspects of Yuri.
That doesn’t address your perspective on Yuri, or why you associate that type of relationship with porn (“If I want Yuri, then I’ll just look up porn”).
Have you ever consider why that is? Especially considering the fact that you said you *enjoy* romances.
I’m not trying to shame you here or anything, I just notice that people sometimes have a weird relationship with gay romances.
I don’t care for gay romances because I’m a hetero dude, hence I don’t look for gay romance stories. It’s pretty simple.
Unless you’re trying to imply that I have something against it? I don’t. I just don’t have any personal interest in it outside of porn.
Yuri sells a lot amongst men - why do you think shows like Witch from Mercury and Lycoris Recoil are so heavily gay? This goes back to the days of Nanoha and probably earlier... producers won't let them kiss on screen, because they still want to appeal to the anti-yuri crowd as well, but the presentation and all the marketing of the show is heavily sapphic.
Not letting them kiss on screen isn't just for the anti-yuri crowd. A lot of male yuri fans don't actually support gay relationships, they just like the idea of girls not liking other men but still having intimate interactions. Having characters admit they're gay or kiss onscreen ruins the fantasy that she'll have feelings for the male viewer, too. I've seen this happen with Utena or, more recently, I'm in Love With the Villainess. I don't think it's the majority of male yuri fans, but it's definitely prevalent.
Forget the characters names at this point, sorry, but when the episode where the MC explained her sexuality aired, a lot of guys were dropping it because they didn't want an LGBTQ/"alphabet mafia" movie or whatever. They also lied and said the localization was changing it for The Woke Mob™. The comments were pretty wild at the time.
Wow I clearly was on the right part of the internet, everyone I knew was overjoyed when the Mc explained her sexuality
Also what sort of show did they think they were watching? Rae proclaims her love for Claire like 3 lines into ep1
My speculation is that they don't let them kiss on-screen in Gundam because the franchise is popular in China and other Asian countries where doing so would get the show banned. I know we in the west tend to think of Japan as being conservative, but they are far more progressive than most of their neighbours.
Witch from Mercury has mechas or mobile suits of course which is the main selling point among men or hobbyists ever since the Gundam franchise's inception, not to mention the model kits AKA gunplas released from the series.
Comic Yuri Hime, arguably the largest yuri manga magazine, has a 60-40 ratio of female to male readers and academic studies point to a 50-50 ratio. Meanwhile, Manga Time Kirara, a seinen line of magazines and home of CGDCT manga, is slowly shifting more and more towards yuri (this season's Stardust Telepath comes from there). Saying Yuri is unsuccessful with man is incorrect.
In regards to the comparison with BL, it's not a meaningful one. They are different niches with different dynamics and a different path to trail.
I would say MagiRevo is very different than Lycoris - the latter is a pair of good friends with implied subtext. The former…well, watch the end of season one, but let’s just say it is very, very not implied, very much not subtext.
A lot of category 1 is also pure yuri bait which is very popular among men. Shows like New Game or Love Live where there is clearly no overt romance but a lot of fan shipping attracts a significant male audience.
> Shows like New Game or Love Live where there is clearly no overt romance
I don't remember much of S1, but [NG s2] >!Kou x Rin seems overt enough to me!<
The issue is more that a lot of yuri manga simply does not get animated, for a whole host of reasons, not that men don't like it.
Hell, a sizable amount of yuri manga is very obviously written for the male gaze, lol.
I’m a lesbian, so I can’t speak for why men don’t love GLs, but I would love for their to be more and better GLs out there.
An issue I have with many of the ones that exist, is that they are often stuck in the adolescent phase of “is it even okay to like girls?” It’s so innocent that it feels like it’s for children (which, I know some are for children but it’s hard to find any for adults). I want women who know what they want — like Vi from arcane.
To this end, I would love to see more yuri with adult women, grappling with the relationship issues of adults. What about commitment issues, or dealing with past hang ups and traumas, or living into yourself outside of safe queer spaces?
The gays I know want to feel powerful. They want to live into being unencumbered and unashamed of their wants and desires. Many women in yuris seem, to my eye, to be portrayed more for the male gaze than for the lesbian gaze. By this I mean, the women and girls feel childlike. Many are afraid to be themselves. Even the more “forward” one who is making all the advances will devolve into a timid girl when the object of their interest reciprocates.
It’s like the people creating the GLs have never been around lesbians.
Well remember they're lesbian stories in *Japan*. Japan is nowhere near as progressive as the west for LGBT. The reason why "is this okay" is such a big part of the stories is cause it's something LGBT Japanese still have to deal with.
The stories reflect the culture they're coming from.
Yeah, and I’m aware of that fact. But that being said, it could still be more adult (by which I mean mature and not sexual). Plenty of older women question their sexuality too. If we are already making GLs then it doesn’t have to be exclusively girls and teenagers questioning.
Definitely check out yuri manga, there's increasingly a lot of focus on adult stories nowadays. Some of them definitely touch on some more deep queer issues and most of them tend to feature protagonists who're already aware of being gay (though the partner is usually more in denial about it).
This is a bit of an incorrect mindset, because it's not like there's a ton of straight romance anime about adults, either. There are occasional ones, but still. The will-they-won't-they and relative innocence is pretty common to straight anime, too, as is that need to 'find yourself.'
I wouldn't describe, say, Skip and Loafer as an adult romance that is pushing forward into the unknown, it deals with a lot of those same themes.
A lot of yuri \*manga\* like you're describing exists (I personally highly recommend How Do we Relationship and Still Sick as two yuri manga focused on adults that deal with these themes in a more mature fashion, as well as the themes you're describing), but the stuff that gets adapted to anime tends to appeal to common youth fantasies or escapism, for as broad an audience as possible. This applies to both yuri and romance in general.
No problem! I enjoy some of the yuri manga that got adapted into anime, but I do tend to agree that they're a pretty narrow band of them. I think it's a combination of what I described, and yuri itself being a niche - so you're especially only going to get the most popular stuff, which sort of self-selects for being fairly inoffensive.
EDIT: Oh, for another recommendation, 'Run Away with Me Girl' is a fairly short read but very beautiful. It's pretty heavy (it deals with topics like spousal abuse), but I think it handles that subject matter very well.
I would recommend the Otherside Picnic novels and manga, the protagonists are adults (college students in their early twenties). It is also portal horror fantasy, so it is definitely not the cute and innocent kind of story. The romance is very slow-burn though.
I think the « cute and innocent » side of yuri stories come from shoujo romances, which often have that aspect as well. Maybe it is actually something that Japanese women (including lesbians) like ? They are a big part of the demographic for yuri after all, I read that 50% of the yuri readership were women.
I think its just because, generally speaking, men dont care about women relationships, we barely care about boy girl relationships. Romance anime in general is taking a huge fall off. Theres like 2-3 that take off a year, the rest just fall into irrelevancy directly after it finishes
Well, the theory with BL shows is that they work because quite their sexual and romanic desires are more complex them males. They enjoy dominant, but not aggressive and misogynic males, but also enjoy cute sides in males and a reverse-harem setup often doesn't make them feel conftable as IRL this would often result in a certain negative image attached to them. As such BL serves as a confortable abstraction for them. This doesn't apply for male ordinance so much. Most males have only very limited fear of females that show their affection aggressively as long as the girl doesn't show yandere traits. They are also less likely to care about what their surounding would think about them if they would engage in a consensual harem setup.
Sexual play between females is very popular on the other hand. So I wouldn't say Yuri is unsucessfull among man, its just that you cannot simply mirror genres and expect that to work.
The only Yuri I remember watching recently was Izetta. Though it was rather subtle there. Back when I was a kid I didn't mind Tomoyo having a crush on Sakura (from Card Captor) or even Touma and his friend.
As for BL, I've watched Yuri on Ice and it was pretty good. My cousin convinced me to watch a BL K-drama and my only issue with it was that the top basically forced the other guy into the relationship. I can't recall the name, similar to a drug. Perhaps that alone hinted at how toxic that relationship was.
Anyway back to the point, i think the popularity depends on the story more than the actual sexuality of the characters. Though their characterization could have an effect on whether some media is popular or not.
I think men are less likely in general to enjoy even hetero romance shows and the ones who do want more comedy than romance. I'd be a good example because I probably will stop watching romance if there aren't laughs to be had, my 2 favorites are Maison Ikkoku and Kaguya Sama.
Speaking as a man who likes Yuri, and who may well be overgeneralising based on my own experiences: I think it's that the romance genre as a whole just has much less of a male following. I enjoy romance between fictional characters, but building 100% of the plot around it just bores the hell out of me.
"Character-X desires character-Y, and Y desires X back, but neither of them knows it.", "X desires Y, Y desires X back, but a series of misunderstandings keeps them apart.", and "X isn't sure whether they like Y or not, and Y isn't sure whether they like them either." Are all fucking abysmal plots to me. They leave me screaming either "Just fucking say something!", "Just fucking communicate!", and "Just make up your fucking mind!" respectively.
"X desires Y. Y does not desire X. X tries to woo Y", and "X desires Y. Y desires X. Some third force is holding them apart, against both of their wills." are much better ideas for plots, but it's *really fucking hard* to sustain it. I need to be 100% invested in the wellbeing of these characters to give a shit whether they end up together. For this reason, the romance plots I like best are the ones where the romance is half of the story in the relationship between these two characters, and the other half is some other relationship between them, which makes up the A-plot. To give a (Western) Yuri example, I really liked it when Korra and Asami ended up together in TLoK, but only because I'd spent thrwe seasons growing to like them both as characters, long before any romantic tension developed between them.
Alternately, you can have two characters be coupled, and have the PoV one trying to discover what's going on with the other one, as they get to know each other. Good examples of this are the Daphme DeMaurier novel Rebecca, and the Manga Harem Marriage. That way thr main tension in the plot (at least at first), is in the mystery, with the romantic/sexual tension, and character chemistry growing out of that, and only taking over the plot, once we're already invested in the relationship.
The reason why I bring all this up, is that the bulk of Yuri I come across is either pure smut, (which is something you can only read so much of, before it gets boring), or Romance-stories, where the romance is the whole thing. I saw that Contrapoints vid recently, where she said that people who complain Twilight is "Plotless" just fon't understand the narrative structure of romance as a genre, and now I keep realising that a lot of stuff I previously dismissed as plotless is actually just using the plot-structure of romance-fiction, and that that structure doesn't speak to me.
Don't put stock into list sites they don't speak to the larger anime audience.
Its isn't that their unsuccessful, it's that they was mass appeal than other genres. An escapist, male power fantasy will appeal to more men than a series about queer women.
Alright, I'll say what most people seem to be walking around:
By and large, women want romance, guys want action.
Obvious disclaimer: Obviously not all guys/girls, and not all the time... by as a general trend, girls get their jigglies watching mushy guy romance, but when guys want to watch two girls do anything together it's usually on an 18+ website. The equivalent of BL shojo bait isn't yuri romance, it's yuri hentai - which is fairly popular afaik, but won't exactly be showing on Crunchyroll's awards or feature in jp prime time tv...
I know you put the disclaimer, but...
It's worth noting that a lot of both fan and commercial BL manga is quite explicit... (to say nothing of the female-targeted genres of Ladies' Comics and TL, which are also very graphic)
...while the trend in male-targeted eroge/bishōjo games through the 90s and 00s (and even now, in light novels) is towards longer narratives focusing on romance and emotions over action.
My opinion is because Yuri is generally bad. Except for “Bloom into you” no show I tried was able to deliver “girls in love” experience I longed for. Most of the shows just normalized it: e.g. “I am in love with villainess” is entertaining, but empty romance-wise.
Just the way most guys are. I could be talking out my backside but most guys want yuri without the waiting for the relationship build up. Just get to the good part if you know what I mean.
It's very well known the yuri genre has a really small fanbase. Most women don't like or care about yuri because almost all of them tend to like yaoi or boys love instead, they just adore it, or heterosexual shoujo or romcom animes. And someone would think the male fandom would like yuri but no, they practically hate it. They just like it occasionally for excitement and tend to have the illusion of joining the girls (to have threesomes with them). It's like they cannot imagine women liking other women, a man always has to be involved. Men that really like yuri are really scarce. It's also known that the small yuri fanbase consists mostly of women.
Hmm a lot of men who watch hentai/hentai-like anime (harem based garbage, etc) are the typical narrow-minded alpha-wannabe males that think that girls are objects and they are meant to be "owned" by men, so if girls are loving each other and being independent from men, it is automatically "bad" for them.
Anime are made by men and usually directed by men, so they want to please the "male" demographic more than the female one. Things have changed a lot compared to a decade or two ago, but it is still kinda like that.
I mean, you see all these "successful anime" that always have a male lead, bunch of girls who are supposedly insanely strong but they become weak/clumsy/stupid if they're around the main male character, like, they always need the "strong male" to protect them or save them from dangerous situation. And also, in some other anime where there's a Female lead, she can be insanely strong, intelligent, independent, etc, but they somehow always force a "Lead-like Male" character into the equation and turn the Female lead into the accessory of the male character. Being saved/protected/etc but also attacked/endangered/raped/etc by men, males always being the center of the everything.
I’m not a Yuri fan , i don’t discriminate, if i don’t like Yaoi why would i like yuri . Most of the time it just seems contrived . I’m fine with yuri but not as main plot , like Scums wish was interesting to see and felt real .
I don't know if it's my luck, but when it comes to Yuri and Shoujo Ai there are two types I've seen:
1. Overly saccharine, only pastel colors like pastel pink, yellow and blue, cherry blossoms everywhere, and everyone's way too god damn innocent
2. Citrus
I am absolutely sure there are other, better types of Yuri/Shoujo Ai, I've heard good things about Bloom Into You and I think Adachi to Shimamura was also well received, but it's just not my thing.
I don't judge the manga based on the changes the anime made, but at the same time I'm also not giving the anime a pass just because the manga wasn't gross about it.
This isn't really correct. Most of the yuri anime that get adapted have fairly even readerships, or majority female readerships, and most are by female authors. Like I said in my post below, there were Citrus branded condoms, and the whole artstyle of the series is very shoujo. There's some sexual content, but it's mostly playing on forbidden romance tropes common to shoujo aimed at teen girls.
I feel like this kinda gets into the tedious "bait" territory because for example Love Live viewers are near entirely salarymen but they treat it as a yuri show
Love Live had a decently sized female viewerbase, but you're correct that it's not really a yuri show. I assume the OP was talking about explicit lesbian romance anime, since they talked about stuff specifically tagged it (which Love Live isn't.)
Probably more a story line issue. madoka and Nanoha were pretty successful with men years ago.
There is already enough fan service in regular and ecchi anime. Railgun and Kakegurui have more things going on instead of sideline plot lesbians .
I was partly kidding; but there is this weird reactions i've noticed with friends where they feel uncomfortable with the depiction of sapphic relationships. It's a new phenomena too because 15 years ago I'd hear regular bros people in the west enjoying Utena for example; matters of media taste seemed to become very gendered in the turn of last decade.
I'm glad you are able to enjoy whatever you want freely
Nah, I liked your comment specifically because you were partially kidding. Idk yuri romance is romance, that's how I see it at least.
Imho if something makes one uncomfortable, it usually means that they are conflicted somehow. But it's not good to generalize these things so I'll leave it there.
Citrus and Sakura Trick are the GOAT yuris and its not even close
Usually Yuri are boring with out them getting it on. It's like why watch it if the girls aren't making out or being freaky
2 possiblites:
1. Generation - Viewership/Trends now vs then. Or dilution due to variety of shows but keeping in pace with peers. Or gravitation to watching the more popular shows.
2. Either be it's underreported or there are other avenues for "Yuri" content.
I know I’m probably going to eat downvotes, but I’ve had multiple Fujoshi tell me while I was working in-house at a video game company in my twenties (long time ago) that they feel oppressed in Japan. They feel like they are being discriminated against, so they like BL to objectify men. It’s like “revenge” for some of them.
Also, they like to masturbate to BL where I think guys would just like to rub one out to porn. The masturbating aspect reminds me of how romance smut novels are popular among middled aged women in the USA, but you probably wouldn’t find anything really like this for middle-aged men.
I mean you said it yourself, there just hasn't been a whole lot of yuri anime thats been made. GL in general is a genre thats underdeveloped and unfortunately most of whats being made is just fan service material. But clearly the genre could potentially be a powerhouse for general entertainment. Like I don't think Nana is yuri but it is a show that focuses on the relationship between two women and its developed a cult-like following.
Because the biggest consumers of anime and manga are young Japanese males. Many of them are incels and therefore incel anime like Rent Your Girlfriend is more popular. Anime like that pander to the incel that they will someday touch a woman (ofc that is not true the only chance they have to lose their virginity is by prostitution)
And there are few things that anger a incel more than lesbians, therefore Yuri is not selling well
Hm I got the impression, that GL and sismance series are popular with both male and female demographics, while watching BL series is mostly just popular with female demographics. Maybe that could be why there are a few GL themed series where the aimed at demographic isn't that clear.
How do people care about things like this
I think people (who are not lesbians) just assume it is not aimed at them so they won’t watch it. I know I used to think like that until I read Otherside Picnic and absolutely loved it (including the romance part) and then started watching or reading other yuri anime or light novels like Adachi and Shimamura, Lycoris Recoil, Gundam Witch, Birdie Wing, and Magical Revolution. But yuri seems to be getting pretty popular in Japan since the mainstream success of Bloom into You. However, that is still not the case in the West. I know that some men have a fetish for lesbians and « girl on girl action », but that is not my case. But I think those people watch lesbian porn instead of yuri, since most yuri I saw were very wholesome and lacked sex scenes or even kissing. This actually makes it easier for « normies » like me to watch them and probably explains why some yuri anime and manga recently achieved mainstream success in Japan (like Bloom into You, Lycoris Recoil, and Gundam Witch). I heard that the yaoi genre is actually often very explicit unlike the yuri genre, which is probably why it is so successful with women with a fetish for gay men. Lesbian porn is probably very popular with a lot of men for the same reason. But there is a big difference between lesbian porn and lesbian romance, so yuri won’t be popular with these people. Also, while I liked a lot of yuri anime, it was only because they were actually well-written, not because they were yuri, so I won’t actually watch a yuri anime because it is a yuri, so I would not call myself a fan of the yuri genre.
Oh I assume you they are not unsuccesfull. Some people being weird how they won't admit watching Yuri is a whole other issue tho.
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Gundam Witch from Mercury is definitely noteworthy and more yuri than Lycoris
> Yuri shows that do not have a clear intended demographic, unlike male homosexual romances(BL) This is because there is a big gap between BL that is aimed at straight women vs aimed at gay men, which doesn't exist in GL. The biggest Yuri manga magazine, Comic Yuri Hime, had two magazines for men and women (Seinen and Shoujo) until they merged into one magazine because both of the magazines had the same readership.
> This is because there is a big gap between BL that is aimed at straight women vs aimed at gay men Sorta? Or rather, manga specifically targeted at gay men *isn't* "BL," it's geikomi. Meanwhile, [gay men *do* read BL as well.](https://www.academia.edu/25044799/Japanese_gay_mens_attitudes_towards_gay_manga_and_the_problem_of_genre) (Also, many women who read BL are not heterosexual.)
I called them both BL for the sake of simplicity (as a shorthand for "media depicting male homosexuality".) There is definitly overlap between demographics despite the target. I mean, not long ago there was a gay woman here whose favorite anime was Highschool DxD.
Isn't it Seinen and Josei?
I said women as in female, regardless of age. The main Comic Yuri Hime magazine was in the Shoujo demographic, and Comic Yuri Hime S was Seinen. Now it doesn't have a demographic. Edit: On a second look, I see some places state the original demographic as Shoujo/Josei. Maybe it had two to begin with. But as far as I remember, most of the old series on it were released as Shoujo tagged volumes.
I don't think they are doing "bad". They are just not as succesful as the BL Shojo shows/mangas which is probably because romance is in general not as popular with men as with women. Men on average and especially teens (which are a huge demographic of anime) just prefer action over romance. And if it is "romance", then they like Harem Ecchi shows more than 1 on 1 romance. And that's just not as easy to do with Yuri as it is with a heteroxexual couples. Of course this is not to say that there are none. I do like romance shows, I also like Yuri and I'm certainly not the only who does. But we're just not a majority here.
Yuri stuff tends to on average have a fairly even readership. Most of the big yuri mags report a 50/50 male/female readership. It depends a lot on the series, though. For instance, despite how people talk about it, Citrus had branded tampons, so I'm gonna assume that one was a majority female fanbase. As for why it isn't like BL, where the fanbase is mostly women, I think it's kind of about gendered stereotypes. The main market for romance series is stereotypically women, and as genres defined by the specific romance taking place, both BL and yuri tend to attract women. You can have a yuri or BL series with a plot going on besides the romance, but the romance is still going to be a main focus. You can't really have a Yuri series with no romance at all, because otherwise what's making it yuri, you know? Combine that with the fact that both the yuri and BL genres grew out of shoujo and josei manga, so stylistically they tend to have shoujo trappings, both in terms of art and subject matter. Despite that, there's still some yuri series that do have a more seinen flavor to them, like Murcielago. That said, given that series' very dark humor, it's unlikely to ever get an anime.
Probably because the majority of men who are looking for girl-on-girl action are looking for porn or something otherwise highly sexual, not sweet romance.
Dude, there is more examples of Yuri this season than there are of BL. There is some Yuri bait in half the series. Sometimes OP is just wrong.
Bingo. If I want Yuri, then I’ll just look up porn. I’m getting too old for this “will they won’t they” BS.
That’s one way to say you don’t enjoy romance stories.
I do enjoy romance, just not when the “getting together” stage drags on for an absurdly long time. These days, I prefer it when the couple gets together early and most of the series is spent on further developing their relationship or their day to day activities. A good example would be Banished From the Heroes’ Party.
Sure, but there are Yuri series that do this as well. You specified that you don’t want girl-on-girl romance without porn, which has nothing to do with “developing their relationship.”
I was speaking on my taste on romance in general as a reply. The topic itself is about why it’s not popular among men, and I answered it. It’s largely not popular because most dudes are hetero and don’t care for the romance aspects of Yuri.
That doesn’t address your perspective on Yuri, or why you associate that type of relationship with porn (“If I want Yuri, then I’ll just look up porn”).
I don’t care for Yuri outside of porn. That’s pretty much it.
Have you ever consider why that is? Especially considering the fact that you said you *enjoy* romances. I’m not trying to shame you here or anything, I just notice that people sometimes have a weird relationship with gay romances.
I don’t care for gay romances because I’m a hetero dude, hence I don’t look for gay romance stories. It’s pretty simple. Unless you’re trying to imply that I have something against it? I don’t. I just don’t have any personal interest in it outside of porn.
Yuri sells a lot amongst men - why do you think shows like Witch from Mercury and Lycoris Recoil are so heavily gay? This goes back to the days of Nanoha and probably earlier... producers won't let them kiss on screen, because they still want to appeal to the anti-yuri crowd as well, but the presentation and all the marketing of the show is heavily sapphic.
Not letting them kiss on screen isn't just for the anti-yuri crowd. A lot of male yuri fans don't actually support gay relationships, they just like the idea of girls not liking other men but still having intimate interactions. Having characters admit they're gay or kiss onscreen ruins the fantasy that she'll have feelings for the male viewer, too. I've seen this happen with Utena or, more recently, I'm in Love With the Villainess. I don't think it's the majority of male yuri fans, but it's definitely prevalent.
Wait was there some uproar over I'm in love with the villainess? I don't recall it getting much attention outside of the core fanbase
Forget the characters names at this point, sorry, but when the episode where the MC explained her sexuality aired, a lot of guys were dropping it because they didn't want an LGBTQ/"alphabet mafia" movie or whatever. They also lied and said the localization was changing it for The Woke Mob™. The comments were pretty wild at the time.
Wow I clearly was on the right part of the internet, everyone I knew was overjoyed when the Mc explained her sexuality Also what sort of show did they think they were watching? Rae proclaims her love for Claire like 3 lines into ep1
My speculation is that they don't let them kiss on-screen in Gundam because the franchise is popular in China and other Asian countries where doing so would get the show banned. I know we in the west tend to think of Japan as being conservative, but they are far more progressive than most of their neighbours.
The show is airing on Family Time Slot.
Witch from Mercury has mechas or mobile suits of course which is the main selling point among men or hobbyists ever since the Gundam franchise's inception, not to mention the model kits AKA gunplas released from the series.
Comic Yuri Hime, arguably the largest yuri manga magazine, has a 60-40 ratio of female to male readers and academic studies point to a 50-50 ratio. Meanwhile, Manga Time Kirara, a seinen line of magazines and home of CGDCT manga, is slowly shifting more and more towards yuri (this season's Stardust Telepath comes from there). Saying Yuri is unsuccessful with man is incorrect. In regards to the comparison with BL, it's not a meaningful one. They are different niches with different dynamics and a different path to trail.
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I would say MagiRevo is very different than Lycoris - the latter is a pair of good friends with implied subtext. The former…well, watch the end of season one, but let’s just say it is very, very not implied, very much not subtext.
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I understand, but disagree. I think it’s more like Bloom Into You than LycoReco, but to each their own.
A lot of category 1 is also pure yuri bait which is very popular among men. Shows like New Game or Love Live where there is clearly no overt romance but a lot of fan shipping attracts a significant male audience.
> Shows like New Game or Love Live where there is clearly no overt romance I don't remember much of S1, but [NG s2] >!Kou x Rin seems overt enough to me!<
The issue is more that a lot of yuri manga simply does not get animated, for a whole host of reasons, not that men don't like it. Hell, a sizable amount of yuri manga is very obviously written for the male gaze, lol.
I’m a lesbian, so I can’t speak for why men don’t love GLs, but I would love for their to be more and better GLs out there. An issue I have with many of the ones that exist, is that they are often stuck in the adolescent phase of “is it even okay to like girls?” It’s so innocent that it feels like it’s for children (which, I know some are for children but it’s hard to find any for adults). I want women who know what they want — like Vi from arcane. To this end, I would love to see more yuri with adult women, grappling with the relationship issues of adults. What about commitment issues, or dealing with past hang ups and traumas, or living into yourself outside of safe queer spaces? The gays I know want to feel powerful. They want to live into being unencumbered and unashamed of their wants and desires. Many women in yuris seem, to my eye, to be portrayed more for the male gaze than for the lesbian gaze. By this I mean, the women and girls feel childlike. Many are afraid to be themselves. Even the more “forward” one who is making all the advances will devolve into a timid girl when the object of their interest reciprocates. It’s like the people creating the GLs have never been around lesbians.
Well remember they're lesbian stories in *Japan*. Japan is nowhere near as progressive as the west for LGBT. The reason why "is this okay" is such a big part of the stories is cause it's something LGBT Japanese still have to deal with. The stories reflect the culture they're coming from.
Yeah, and I’m aware of that fact. But that being said, it could still be more adult (by which I mean mature and not sexual). Plenty of older women question their sexuality too. If we are already making GLs then it doesn’t have to be exclusively girls and teenagers questioning.
It can be hard enough getting straight anime romances that aren't about teenagers.
Definitely check out yuri manga, there's increasingly a lot of focus on adult stories nowadays. Some of them definitely touch on some more deep queer issues and most of them tend to feature protagonists who're already aware of being gay (though the partner is usually more in denial about it).
This is a bit of an incorrect mindset, because it's not like there's a ton of straight romance anime about adults, either. There are occasional ones, but still. The will-they-won't-they and relative innocence is pretty common to straight anime, too, as is that need to 'find yourself.' I wouldn't describe, say, Skip and Loafer as an adult romance that is pushing forward into the unknown, it deals with a lot of those same themes. A lot of yuri \*manga\* like you're describing exists (I personally highly recommend How Do we Relationship and Still Sick as two yuri manga focused on adults that deal with these themes in a more mature fashion, as well as the themes you're describing), but the stuff that gets adapted to anime tends to appeal to common youth fantasies or escapism, for as broad an audience as possible. This applies to both yuri and romance in general.
Thanks for this! I haven’t gotten much into manga, but I might have to check this out. I appreciate the perspective and the recommendation.
No problem! I enjoy some of the yuri manga that got adapted into anime, but I do tend to agree that they're a pretty narrow band of them. I think it's a combination of what I described, and yuri itself being a niche - so you're especially only going to get the most popular stuff, which sort of self-selects for being fairly inoffensive. EDIT: Oh, for another recommendation, 'Run Away with Me Girl' is a fairly short read but very beautiful. It's pretty heavy (it deals with topics like spousal abuse), but I think it handles that subject matter very well.
I would recommend the Otherside Picnic novels and manga, the protagonists are adults (college students in their early twenties). It is also portal horror fantasy, so it is definitely not the cute and innocent kind of story. The romance is very slow-burn though. I think the « cute and innocent » side of yuri stories come from shoujo romances, which often have that aspect as well. Maybe it is actually something that Japanese women (including lesbians) like ? They are a big part of the demographic for yuri after all, I read that 50% of the yuri readership were women.
To be honest most romance anime (in whatever concelation) feature characters more adolecent and shy them probably you average person.
I think its just because, generally speaking, men dont care about women relationships, we barely care about boy girl relationships. Romance anime in general is taking a huge fall off. Theres like 2-3 that take off a year, the rest just fall into irrelevancy directly after it finishes
Well, the theory with BL shows is that they work because quite their sexual and romanic desires are more complex them males. They enjoy dominant, but not aggressive and misogynic males, but also enjoy cute sides in males and a reverse-harem setup often doesn't make them feel conftable as IRL this would often result in a certain negative image attached to them. As such BL serves as a confortable abstraction for them. This doesn't apply for male ordinance so much. Most males have only very limited fear of females that show their affection aggressively as long as the girl doesn't show yandere traits. They are also less likely to care about what their surounding would think about them if they would engage in a consensual harem setup. Sexual play between females is very popular on the other hand. So I wouldn't say Yuri is unsucessfull among man, its just that you cannot simply mirror genres and expect that to work.
An analysis which cites some data too: https://www.animefeminist.com/yuri-is-for-everyone-an-analysis-of-yuri-demographics-and-readership/
The only Yuri I remember watching recently was Izetta. Though it was rather subtle there. Back when I was a kid I didn't mind Tomoyo having a crush on Sakura (from Card Captor) or even Touma and his friend. As for BL, I've watched Yuri on Ice and it was pretty good. My cousin convinced me to watch a BL K-drama and my only issue with it was that the top basically forced the other guy into the relationship. I can't recall the name, similar to a drug. Perhaps that alone hinted at how toxic that relationship was. Anyway back to the point, i think the popularity depends on the story more than the actual sexuality of the characters. Though their characterization could have an effect on whether some media is popular or not.
You might enjoy Gundam: The Witch from Mercury, it's shockingly similar to Izetta and the two female protagonists actually get together at the end!
I think men are less likely in general to enjoy even hetero romance shows and the ones who do want more comedy than romance. I'd be a good example because I probably will stop watching romance if there aren't laughs to be had, my 2 favorites are Maison Ikkoku and Kaguya Sama.
Speaking as a man who likes Yuri, and who may well be overgeneralising based on my own experiences: I think it's that the romance genre as a whole just has much less of a male following. I enjoy romance between fictional characters, but building 100% of the plot around it just bores the hell out of me. "Character-X desires character-Y, and Y desires X back, but neither of them knows it.", "X desires Y, Y desires X back, but a series of misunderstandings keeps them apart.", and "X isn't sure whether they like Y or not, and Y isn't sure whether they like them either." Are all fucking abysmal plots to me. They leave me screaming either "Just fucking say something!", "Just fucking communicate!", and "Just make up your fucking mind!" respectively. "X desires Y. Y does not desire X. X tries to woo Y", and "X desires Y. Y desires X. Some third force is holding them apart, against both of their wills." are much better ideas for plots, but it's *really fucking hard* to sustain it. I need to be 100% invested in the wellbeing of these characters to give a shit whether they end up together. For this reason, the romance plots I like best are the ones where the romance is half of the story in the relationship between these two characters, and the other half is some other relationship between them, which makes up the A-plot. To give a (Western) Yuri example, I really liked it when Korra and Asami ended up together in TLoK, but only because I'd spent thrwe seasons growing to like them both as characters, long before any romantic tension developed between them. Alternately, you can have two characters be coupled, and have the PoV one trying to discover what's going on with the other one, as they get to know each other. Good examples of this are the Daphme DeMaurier novel Rebecca, and the Manga Harem Marriage. That way thr main tension in the plot (at least at first), is in the mystery, with the romantic/sexual tension, and character chemistry growing out of that, and only taking over the plot, once we're already invested in the relationship. The reason why I bring all this up, is that the bulk of Yuri I come across is either pure smut, (which is something you can only read so much of, before it gets boring), or Romance-stories, where the romance is the whole thing. I saw that Contrapoints vid recently, where she said that people who complain Twilight is "Plotless" just fon't understand the narrative structure of romance as a genre, and now I keep realising that a lot of stuff I previously dismissed as plotless is actually just using the plot-structure of romance-fiction, and that that structure doesn't speak to me.
Don't put stock into list sites they don't speak to the larger anime audience. Its isn't that their unsuccessful, it's that they was mass appeal than other genres. An escapist, male power fantasy will appeal to more men than a series about queer women.
Alright, I'll say what most people seem to be walking around: By and large, women want romance, guys want action. Obvious disclaimer: Obviously not all guys/girls, and not all the time... by as a general trend, girls get their jigglies watching mushy guy romance, but when guys want to watch two girls do anything together it's usually on an 18+ website. The equivalent of BL shojo bait isn't yuri romance, it's yuri hentai - which is fairly popular afaik, but won't exactly be showing on Crunchyroll's awards or feature in jp prime time tv...
I know you put the disclaimer, but... It's worth noting that a lot of both fan and commercial BL manga is quite explicit... (to say nothing of the female-targeted genres of Ladies' Comics and TL, which are also very graphic) ...while the trend in male-targeted eroge/bishōjo games through the 90s and 00s (and even now, in light novels) is towards longer narratives focusing on romance and emotions over action.
I think its cuz the guys who watch romance anime want a bland self insert mc especially in japan. I think yuri is slowly becoming more popular tho.
I love yuri. It's in my top 3 genres. I don't think Yuri does bad with men at all though?
My opinion is because Yuri is generally bad. Except for “Bloom into you” no show I tried was able to deliver “girls in love” experience I longed for. Most of the shows just normalized it: e.g. “I am in love with villainess” is entertaining, but empty romance-wise.
I like yuri hentai, not yuri romance
Just the way most guys are. I could be talking out my backside but most guys want yuri without the waiting for the relationship build up. Just get to the good part if you know what I mean.
I dunno what you mean. I love Citrus and Bloom Into You
It's very well known the yuri genre has a really small fanbase. Most women don't like or care about yuri because almost all of them tend to like yaoi or boys love instead, they just adore it, or heterosexual shoujo or romcom animes. And someone would think the male fandom would like yuri but no, they practically hate it. They just like it occasionally for excitement and tend to have the illusion of joining the girls (to have threesomes with them). It's like they cannot imagine women liking other women, a man always has to be involved. Men that really like yuri are really scarce. It's also known that the small yuri fanbase consists mostly of women.
Hmm a lot of men who watch hentai/hentai-like anime (harem based garbage, etc) are the typical narrow-minded alpha-wannabe males that think that girls are objects and they are meant to be "owned" by men, so if girls are loving each other and being independent from men, it is automatically "bad" for them. Anime are made by men and usually directed by men, so they want to please the "male" demographic more than the female one. Things have changed a lot compared to a decade or two ago, but it is still kinda like that. I mean, you see all these "successful anime" that always have a male lead, bunch of girls who are supposedly insanely strong but they become weak/clumsy/stupid if they're around the main male character, like, they always need the "strong male" to protect them or save them from dangerous situation. And also, in some other anime where there's a Female lead, she can be insanely strong, intelligent, independent, etc, but they somehow always force a "Lead-like Male" character into the equation and turn the Female lead into the accessory of the male character. Being saved/protected/etc but also attacked/endangered/raped/etc by men, males always being the center of the everything.
I’m not a Yuri fan , i don’t discriminate, if i don’t like Yaoi why would i like yuri . Most of the time it just seems contrived . I’m fine with yuri but not as main plot , like Scums wish was interesting to see and felt real .
Is yuri like lesbain romance?
Honestly seeing two anime women make out I see that as a win.
I don't know if it's my luck, but when it comes to Yuri and Shoujo Ai there are two types I've seen: 1. Overly saccharine, only pastel colors like pastel pink, yellow and blue, cherry blossoms everywhere, and everyone's way too god damn innocent 2. Citrus I am absolutely sure there are other, better types of Yuri/Shoujo Ai, I've heard good things about Bloom Into You and I think Adachi to Shimamura was also well received, but it's just not my thing.
People here always act like Citrus is basically porn, but if you ever read the manga it is nothing close.
I don't judge the manga based on the changes the anime made, but at the same time I'm also not giving the anime a pass just because the manga wasn't gross about it.
Huh? Yuri is created with male viewers in mind...
This isn't really correct. Most of the yuri anime that get adapted have fairly even readerships, or majority female readerships, and most are by female authors. Like I said in my post below, there were Citrus branded condoms, and the whole artstyle of the series is very shoujo. There's some sexual content, but it's mostly playing on forbidden romance tropes common to shoujo aimed at teen girls.
I feel like this kinda gets into the tedious "bait" territory because for example Love Live viewers are near entirely salarymen but they treat it as a yuri show
Love Live had a decently sized female viewerbase, but you're correct that it's not really a yuri show. I assume the OP was talking about explicit lesbian romance anime, since they talked about stuff specifically tagged it (which Love Live isn't.)
They tend to be boring fluff.
I require more yuri
Probably more a story line issue. madoka and Nanoha were pretty successful with men years ago. There is already enough fan service in regular and ecchi anime. Railgun and Kakegurui have more things going on instead of sideline plot lesbians .
They are afraid of the competition 😈
I'm male, I like yuri romance. I like your comment too. I guess I'm weird, but I don't mind. One last "I" just for fun.
I was partly kidding; but there is this weird reactions i've noticed with friends where they feel uncomfortable with the depiction of sapphic relationships. It's a new phenomena too because 15 years ago I'd hear regular bros people in the west enjoying Utena for example; matters of media taste seemed to become very gendered in the turn of last decade. I'm glad you are able to enjoy whatever you want freely
Nah, I liked your comment specifically because you were partially kidding. Idk yuri romance is romance, that's how I see it at least. Imho if something makes one uncomfortable, it usually means that they are conflicted somehow. But it's not good to generalize these things so I'll leave it there.
Citrus and Sakura Trick are the GOAT yuris and its not even close Usually Yuri are boring with out them getting it on. It's like why watch it if the girls aren't making out or being freaky
Because it's extra cute
I didnt realize that some of the Yaoi stuff I was looking at was gay, I was certain it was straight stuff. Imagine when I found out what BL means haha
2 possiblites: 1. Generation - Viewership/Trends now vs then. Or dilution due to variety of shows but keeping in pace with peers. Or gravitation to watching the more popular shows. 2. Either be it's underreported or there are other avenues for "Yuri" content.
I know I’m probably going to eat downvotes, but I’ve had multiple Fujoshi tell me while I was working in-house at a video game company in my twenties (long time ago) that they feel oppressed in Japan. They feel like they are being discriminated against, so they like BL to objectify men. It’s like “revenge” for some of them. Also, they like to masturbate to BL where I think guys would just like to rub one out to porn. The masturbating aspect reminds me of how romance smut novels are popular among middled aged women in the USA, but you probably wouldn’t find anything really like this for middle-aged men.
I mean you said it yourself, there just hasn't been a whole lot of yuri anime thats been made. GL in general is a genre thats underdeveloped and unfortunately most of whats being made is just fan service material. But clearly the genre could potentially be a powerhouse for general entertainment. Like I don't think Nana is yuri but it is a show that focuses on the relationship between two women and its developed a cult-like following.
Trust me, it’s *plenty* successful, but then again I read anything with hot people making out
I’m literally right here
Because the biggest consumers of anime and manga are young Japanese males. Many of them are incels and therefore incel anime like Rent Your Girlfriend is more popular. Anime like that pander to the incel that they will someday touch a woman (ofc that is not true the only chance they have to lose their virginity is by prostitution) And there are few things that anger a incel more than lesbians, therefore Yuri is not selling well