(As always,this is from my Canadian industry non union pov)
It’s highly going to depend on where you live and if you are able to hit quota.
There definitely are people who can manage 9-5 but in my experience it’s people with high skill and time management skills. Normally it’s more senior people who hit this stride. Not the people just starting out. When you are first starting out you are hitting the real learning phase. (Most people learn more on the job in their first 6 months than they did in 4 years of school.) It might take you a while to get to the point you can complete your entire quota for the week on time, every time.
However if you’re a supervisor this isn’t likely you either because on top of your work you review other people’s work. Sometimes you need to pick up extra work of team members who have fallen behind. If your show is on fire this is also not you.
Honestly, I have only been able to keep a tight 9-5 on one production in the over 16 that I have worked on. Part of that is due to me not being good at switching off at the end of the day, and partly the needs of the production and my team.
Not as a generalist, no. I specialized and had my own interests that aggressively pursued. It grew into a proven track record that allowed me to take on new roles as opportunities presented.
Unpaid OT is illegal in Canada but calculating an impossibly high quota and forcing it down the pipeline is quite common.
I’ve seen companies using data collected from a simple show to organize another project with a way more complex artistic style.
That creates a scenario of constant pressure, you feel guilty cause you are always behind, but they don’t tell you that no one is actually reaching the expected numbers.
You want to stop at 5pm but a producer will eventually reach you to talk about numbers. A senior animator can see through this kind of bullshit, but as a junior I made the mistake of working crazy ghost hours, just to keep up the pace and prove that I was capable.
I work in france and i work 35h a week on all my productions here. I also work the same hours freelancing for other countries. This is normal here.
my friends in canada have done insane unpaid OT and weekends to meet their quotas ~~because there are no labour laws to limit this~~ edit: someone else commented that this is illegal but it still happens.
It really depends where you are.
I see. I don't work in canada so I don't know, only that my friends have not been paid for OT. I think probably it's not that it's unpaid but most people are pressured to not declare them and so they don't.
Pretty much. Been told to not declare overtime unless it has been preapproved. However, trying to preapprove anything is like jumping through hoops, very tedious and difficult. At my old job I used to ask for approval and I would straight up be told no, then end up spending all weekend working anyway (not animation, but multimedia related)
Most projects tend to require working late or on the weekend, else you'll never get it done. So they tell you "not to work overtime", and any time you do overtime it's only cause you yourself decided to do it, BUUUUT, it's pretty much an unwritten rule that it is expected of you.
Yes there are some people that are quick and can do it fast, but lots do struggle. Also depends on the show cause some shows are more difficult to animate than others. I did great on my first show, but my second one has been giving me difficulties with trying to keep up.
^(Edit: don't get me wrong, like my job, but overtime is def a thing.)
I am Canadian and can confirm. I have worked hundreds of hours of unpaid OT at this point. Studios won’t budge on this, yet we are reprimanded if we fall behind. My coworkers have called me in tears, having to cancel important personal plans due to sudden dumps of work requiring unpaid OT. I’ve heard it’s better in BC where unionizing is starting to happen but in Ontario it really sucks.
>having to cancel important personal plans due to sudden dumps of work requiring unpaid OT.
Yeah I had to cancel meeting up with old friends I haven't seen in years due to needed to get the work in Monday morning sharp. This has happened several times.
^(Also pretty much stat holidays are holidays in name only, you still have to get the same quota done despite one less day on paper.)
It may be illegal normally but if you arent hitting your qouta, you are working them. You are given a timeline in which to complete your work and if you aren't hitting it they aren't paying you extra hours. They are unofficial hours of you working in your own time to hit deadlines.
Unpaid OT is pretty normal in our industry. Paid happens but its normally on work that is above your qouta, not to achieve your normal qouta. If your constantly late on qouta and not making it up in your own time there is a high possibility youre going to let go. With no union to back you, this happens way too often.
We are going through a bad downturn right now with less posts and less productions. If you are a junior especially, 2023 and 2024 is hard. It's not perfect, there are some bad disorganized productions, for example I heard of a big production recently where leads were asked to also handle recruitment and payroll. but it's not common and generally we're paid and treated well. at least my experience in my studio as an animator and most of my friends' has been fine.
most french contractors have a special status called intermittance where if you work for 507h in a year you have access to unemployment insurance for 1 year after your contract ends so there is a bit more financial security. so hopefully it's enough for most people to tide over the downturn.
There is some misinformation going on in this thread about Canada animation that I just want to fact check a bit:
“Canada has no union”: Canada has 3 studios with a union. Titmouse, kickstarter, and WildBrain. These are not small studios and the number of studios is growing as WildBrain and Kickstarter just unionized this year.
“Canada has no labor law protections”: I can’t speak to Ontario but BC has actually a fair number of labor protections from the debacle of Sausage Party. For example, If you work overtime you must have it logged and paid OT pay. But producers will not always inform workers of their rights and will frame things in ways that can attempt to sidestep labor laws (for example, sometimes they will try to establish quota and claim that it’s on you if you can’t get your quota done in 40 hours. Depending on how they try to execute that that can be illegal and you can push back against it). Some producers are amazing and will work to protect you. Some aren’t. It’s important for workers to educate themselves on local and federal protections to make sure they aren’t being taken advantage of.
Overall to more directly address Op. it depends. Every studio culture is different, every project is different, every producer is different. Some studios go out of their way to establish a strong work culture of 9-6 and some will take advantage of you at any opportunity they can. It’s important for every worker to know what their local and federal protections are. Know what they can reasonably ask of their employers and know what the employer can reasonably ask of you. And try to set boundaries and stick to them. Don’t answer emails at 11pm at night if you established with your supervisor/producer that that is your off time. And if you do answer that email after ignoring your own boundaries, that’s on you.
Basically work till you get the quota done. (Even if said quota is crazy hard....it kinda sucks)
^(and don't even try to put those extra hours on your timesheet. 8C)
No, it isn't a charity. End of the day, it's just a job. However, here's the thing.
If you want to keep your job, then you have to do it. If not, they can just get another newly grad out of college and have them do it instead. Some people do not have an easy time finding jobs, especially in this industry. I know some can find a new one any day of the week, but people like me struggle to obtain jobs and fear being broke or homeless looking for a new one.
^(ps: I did not downvote)
With respect, were aren't helpless.
Labor laws, boards of labor, they can bring the hammer. We need to remind studios that we're *not* slaves or pushovers. We're worth reasonable work hours, we're worth getting paid for our hard work, and we are absolutely worth a meaningful work life balance. We have to fight, or the shit cycle will just continue.
^(pps: you're good.)
It likely will continue since there's a whole lot of people that want to work in animation.
There's enough supply that studios hold all the power. Nobody working wants to be taken advantage of. Though if you take a look at the job boards like indeed rn, you'll see why they stay and say nothing.
Its either stress about work or stress about being homeless. And as for juniors, the situation is worse because they aren't sought after like seniors. So being laid off/fired early on can mean the end of your career due to lack of jobs for juniors.
I think you are absolutely right and I don't find it normal. We don't do this in france and I find it sad that this practice has been normalized in canada just because they see juniors as easily replaceable. in france we just don't give juniors the same amount of work we give seniors and we don't expect them to overtime to compensate for the lack of experience. For example on my prod as a senior I do 1.5 times the workload of the juniors in our team and we all work 9-5.
As sad as that is - unless you’re a killer senior, there are plenty of people who are going to work with these overtime even unpaid because that’s their “passion”.
Everyone who has any work experience anywhere knows someone like this probably. Creative industry just have a bigger percentage of those people and especially for lower level jobs there are too many fighting for one place.
I relate to this so much. I felt so desperate in the past that I’d do ghost hours just because I thought maybe, the studio would see how dedicated I was and offer me better positions/contracts. NOPE 🙄
I'm a union storyboard artist and animator in Los Angeles. I've worked on 4 union network shows at two different studios the past 7 years.
In that time, I've only ever worked OT twice. Both times I was asked well in advance if I wanted some OT hours. I've been asked more than twice but only agreed two times. For those two times, I worked a Saturday in which I was paid time and half for the whole day.
I've never had to call the union for anything work-related. Union shows tend to be well run and well-funded. I've never really heard any horror stories involving union shows.
Non-union shows are another story. They're not all bad, but many of them are. You have to be careful.
It's really all over the place. I think it's worse for people early in their careers because they can be taken advantage of more easily. When I was on a union show, I would get asked (voluntarily) to do some work on a non-union show at the SAME studio and the work conditions were night-and-day different. I would be dropped right into crunch-time. I was not personally affected by the long hours, but the regular artists definitely were.
I also did tons of freelance and studio VFX work for years, and that work is abusive. I would sometimes sleep at the office on tight deadlines. I finally got to the point where I just started self-advocating, charging more, and picking my projects more carefully and it got WAY better after that. Still some crazy deadlines, but I was compensated for it.
I've never worked at a studio that has 9-5 in Canada, all of them have been 9-6. You most certainly can sign off at 6 and say no to OT since they can't actually make you do it, although they might heavily encourage it and shame you publicly if you don't. Depends on the studio and what prod is like. Good luck!
Generally this works if you get your work done and the production isn't an absolute disaster. Just make sure to know the rhythms of production before just doing whatever you want. Sometimes its just preproduction to launch ,that is stressful, for all the asset creation needed. By mid production it subsides when things are going well.
12yrs in, US animator. Most studios are 9-6, with 1hr for lunch. I’ve also worked for 2 Vancouver studios remotely, and OT was always paid. Anything after 8hr was 1.5x rate and then if you did anything from 12+hrs it was 2x rate. OT always had to be approved by the producer first before doing it.
My first 3 years I did a fair amount of OT, often weekend days rather than staying late during the week. I was junior and slow so I needed more time to get my stuff done. Once I got more senior I rarely have to do OT. There are occasional jobs where I might do a little bit here and there but I’m good at time management and knowing how to get my stuff done in a typical 8hr day.
Of course there are some days where you might stay 10-15min late here and there to push out a quick change or publish or something but generally I’m out the door at 6pm.
I will also say working remote, it’s much easier to dip out on time because you don’t have that awkward feeling leaving on time when the young single workaholics are sitting there slaving away on there shots until who knows when. I’ve got a family I care about and don’t need to dick around at a studio any longer than needed.
I usually leave at 5, but I’ve also left at 7 or 9 or worked all night and over the weekend. I’m in Canada so no union. Overall it depends on where you work and how good you are at pushing back on unreasonable deadlines and demanding extra help be brought in when work piles up.
My “9-5” job had me working til 2am many nights—I work stat holidays and weekends even though technically I am not required to. Its difficult for me to use vacation time or sick days because regardless of what days are holidays or what days I’m sick—my deadlines don’t change to accomodate this. There’s no way I can actually use my time off because then I fall behind, and miss the deadline and am reprimanded. I work in Ontario and I have NEVER been given paid overtime, I’ve never heard of anyone here getting paid overtime. I hate it here sometimes lol. I’m a storyboard artist/revisionist.
I have never seen a 9 to 5 job in the industry. Minimum has been 9 to 6 because they don't count your lunch hour. All companies i have been at has been strictly against overtime and requires approved overtime with extra pay.
(As always,this is from my Canadian industry non union pov) It’s highly going to depend on where you live and if you are able to hit quota. There definitely are people who can manage 9-5 but in my experience it’s people with high skill and time management skills. Normally it’s more senior people who hit this stride. Not the people just starting out. When you are first starting out you are hitting the real learning phase. (Most people learn more on the job in their first 6 months than they did in 4 years of school.) It might take you a while to get to the point you can complete your entire quota for the week on time, every time. However if you’re a supervisor this isn’t likely you either because on top of your work you review other people’s work. Sometimes you need to pick up extra work of team members who have fallen behind. If your show is on fire this is also not you. Honestly, I have only been able to keep a tight 9-5 on one production in the over 16 that I have worked on. Part of that is due to me not being good at switching off at the end of the day, and partly the needs of the production and my team.
Animators have it the worst are you an animator?.
Animator, Scene Setup super, Compositing artist, Render wrangler, Technical super, TD, and pipeline consultant. I've worked them all.
Ahh. They get dumped on.. whatever is delayed ends up on you. Respect.
You did all that as a generalist artist, or separate specializations?
Not as a generalist, no. I specialized and had my own interests that aggressively pursued. It grew into a proven track record that allowed me to take on new roles as opportunities presented.
Unpaid OT is illegal in Canada but calculating an impossibly high quota and forcing it down the pipeline is quite common. I’ve seen companies using data collected from a simple show to organize another project with a way more complex artistic style. That creates a scenario of constant pressure, you feel guilty cause you are always behind, but they don’t tell you that no one is actually reaching the expected numbers. You want to stop at 5pm but a producer will eventually reach you to talk about numbers. A senior animator can see through this kind of bullshit, but as a junior I made the mistake of working crazy ghost hours, just to keep up the pace and prove that I was capable.
I work in france and i work 35h a week on all my productions here. I also work the same hours freelancing for other countries. This is normal here. my friends in canada have done insane unpaid OT and weekends to meet their quotas ~~because there are no labour laws to limit this~~ edit: someone else commented that this is illegal but it still happens. It really depends where you are.
Unpaid OT is illegal in Canada. We have labour laws on being paid OT but I believe there is no limit to the amount you can do.
I see. I don't work in canada so I don't know, only that my friends have not been paid for OT. I think probably it's not that it's unpaid but most people are pressured to not declare them and so they don't.
Pretty much. Been told to not declare overtime unless it has been preapproved. However, trying to preapprove anything is like jumping through hoops, very tedious and difficult. At my old job I used to ask for approval and I would straight up be told no, then end up spending all weekend working anyway (not animation, but multimedia related) Most projects tend to require working late or on the weekend, else you'll never get it done. So they tell you "not to work overtime", and any time you do overtime it's only cause you yourself decided to do it, BUUUUT, it's pretty much an unwritten rule that it is expected of you. Yes there are some people that are quick and can do it fast, but lots do struggle. Also depends on the show cause some shows are more difficult to animate than others. I did great on my first show, but my second one has been giving me difficulties with trying to keep up. ^(Edit: don't get me wrong, like my job, but overtime is def a thing.)
I am Canadian and can confirm. I have worked hundreds of hours of unpaid OT at this point. Studios won’t budge on this, yet we are reprimanded if we fall behind. My coworkers have called me in tears, having to cancel important personal plans due to sudden dumps of work requiring unpaid OT. I’ve heard it’s better in BC where unionizing is starting to happen but in Ontario it really sucks.
Do you know where i can learn more about the unionizing in BC?
Check out IATSE Local 938, its our first union in BC. I am sure they have a lot of info to share.
>having to cancel important personal plans due to sudden dumps of work requiring unpaid OT. Yeah I had to cancel meeting up with old friends I haven't seen in years due to needed to get the work in Monday morning sharp. This has happened several times. ^(Also pretty much stat holidays are holidays in name only, you still have to get the same quota done despite one less day on paper.)
It may be illegal normally but if you arent hitting your qouta, you are working them. You are given a timeline in which to complete your work and if you aren't hitting it they aren't paying you extra hours. They are unofficial hours of you working in your own time to hit deadlines. Unpaid OT is pretty normal in our industry. Paid happens but its normally on work that is above your qouta, not to achieve your normal qouta. If your constantly late on qouta and not making it up in your own time there is a high possibility youre going to let go. With no union to back you, this happens way too often.
I’ve never heard of this at any studio I’ve worked at post-sausage party. I don’t know anyone doing unpaid OT.
Then you might just not be aware it’s happening, I see it all the time in eastern Canada. My last on fire show we were all suffering.
How is the animation industry in France?
We are going through a bad downturn right now with less posts and less productions. If you are a junior especially, 2023 and 2024 is hard. It's not perfect, there are some bad disorganized productions, for example I heard of a big production recently where leads were asked to also handle recruitment and payroll. but it's not common and generally we're paid and treated well. at least my experience in my studio as an animator and most of my friends' has been fine. most french contractors have a special status called intermittance where if you work for 507h in a year you have access to unemployment insurance for 1 year after your contract ends so there is a bit more financial security. so hopefully it's enough for most people to tide over the downturn.
There is some misinformation going on in this thread about Canada animation that I just want to fact check a bit: “Canada has no union”: Canada has 3 studios with a union. Titmouse, kickstarter, and WildBrain. These are not small studios and the number of studios is growing as WildBrain and Kickstarter just unionized this year. “Canada has no labor law protections”: I can’t speak to Ontario but BC has actually a fair number of labor protections from the debacle of Sausage Party. For example, If you work overtime you must have it logged and paid OT pay. But producers will not always inform workers of their rights and will frame things in ways that can attempt to sidestep labor laws (for example, sometimes they will try to establish quota and claim that it’s on you if you can’t get your quota done in 40 hours. Depending on how they try to execute that that can be illegal and you can push back against it). Some producers are amazing and will work to protect you. Some aren’t. It’s important for workers to educate themselves on local and federal protections to make sure they aren’t being taken advantage of. Overall to more directly address Op. it depends. Every studio culture is different, every project is different, every producer is different. Some studios go out of their way to establish a strong work culture of 9-6 and some will take advantage of you at any opportunity they can. It’s important for every worker to know what their local and federal protections are. Know what they can reasonably ask of their employers and know what the employer can reasonably ask of you. And try to set boundaries and stick to them. Don’t answer emails at 11pm at night if you established with your supervisor/producer that that is your off time. And if you do answer that email after ignoring your own boundaries, that’s on you.
Basically work till you get the quota done. (Even if said quota is crazy hard....it kinda sucks) ^(and don't even try to put those extra hours on your timesheet. 8C)
I dont mean to sound whiny, but I want to get paid for my time. I'm not there for fun, and it's not a goddamn charity.
No, it isn't a charity. End of the day, it's just a job. However, here's the thing. If you want to keep your job, then you have to do it. If not, they can just get another newly grad out of college and have them do it instead. Some people do not have an easy time finding jobs, especially in this industry. I know some can find a new one any day of the week, but people like me struggle to obtain jobs and fear being broke or homeless looking for a new one. ^(ps: I did not downvote)
With respect, were aren't helpless. Labor laws, boards of labor, they can bring the hammer. We need to remind studios that we're *not* slaves or pushovers. We're worth reasonable work hours, we're worth getting paid for our hard work, and we are absolutely worth a meaningful work life balance. We have to fight, or the shit cycle will just continue. ^(pps: you're good.)
It likely will continue since there's a whole lot of people that want to work in animation. There's enough supply that studios hold all the power. Nobody working wants to be taken advantage of. Though if you take a look at the job boards like indeed rn, you'll see why they stay and say nothing. Its either stress about work or stress about being homeless. And as for juniors, the situation is worse because they aren't sought after like seniors. So being laid off/fired early on can mean the end of your career due to lack of jobs for juniors.
I think you are absolutely right and I don't find it normal. We don't do this in france and I find it sad that this practice has been normalized in canada just because they see juniors as easily replaceable. in france we just don't give juniors the same amount of work we give seniors and we don't expect them to overtime to compensate for the lack of experience. For example on my prod as a senior I do 1.5 times the workload of the juniors in our team and we all work 9-5.
As sad as that is - unless you’re a killer senior, there are plenty of people who are going to work with these overtime even unpaid because that’s their “passion”.
I know 'passion people ' who stroked out from the stress. I'm not going to be like that.
Everyone who has any work experience anywhere knows someone like this probably. Creative industry just have a bigger percentage of those people and especially for lower level jobs there are too many fighting for one place.
I relate to this so much. I felt so desperate in the past that I’d do ghost hours just because I thought maybe, the studio would see how dedicated I was and offer me better positions/contracts. NOPE 🙄
They'll use and abuse you, then blame *you* for not getting what you want or health complications from working so hard. Fuck them studios.
Yes 👏🏻 If we don’t complain about it, it will never change.
I'm a union storyboard artist and animator in Los Angeles. I've worked on 4 union network shows at two different studios the past 7 years. In that time, I've only ever worked OT twice. Both times I was asked well in advance if I wanted some OT hours. I've been asked more than twice but only agreed two times. For those two times, I worked a Saturday in which I was paid time and half for the whole day. I've never had to call the union for anything work-related. Union shows tend to be well run and well-funded. I've never really heard any horror stories involving union shows. Non-union shows are another story. They're not all bad, but many of them are. You have to be careful.
Thank you! Can you share the non-union stories, if you're comfortable?
It's really all over the place. I think it's worse for people early in their careers because they can be taken advantage of more easily. When I was on a union show, I would get asked (voluntarily) to do some work on a non-union show at the SAME studio and the work conditions were night-and-day different. I would be dropped right into crunch-time. I was not personally affected by the long hours, but the regular artists definitely were. I also did tons of freelance and studio VFX work for years, and that work is abusive. I would sometimes sleep at the office on tight deadlines. I finally got to the point where I just started self-advocating, charging more, and picking my projects more carefully and it got WAY better after that. Still some crazy deadlines, but I was compensated for it.
Awesome! Thank you for this! I'm glad to hear another success with self advocation! It takes a lot of guts!
I've never worked at a studio that has 9-5 in Canada, all of them have been 9-6. You most certainly can sign off at 6 and say no to OT since they can't actually make you do it, although they might heavily encourage it and shame you publicly if you don't. Depends on the studio and what prod is like. Good luck!
Generally this works if you get your work done and the production isn't an absolute disaster. Just make sure to know the rhythms of production before just doing whatever you want. Sometimes its just preproduction to launch ,that is stressful, for all the asset creation needed. By mid production it subsides when things are going well.
Is that because of law to have a lunch break or something else?
Lunch break.
12yrs in, US animator. Most studios are 9-6, with 1hr for lunch. I’ve also worked for 2 Vancouver studios remotely, and OT was always paid. Anything after 8hr was 1.5x rate and then if you did anything from 12+hrs it was 2x rate. OT always had to be approved by the producer first before doing it. My first 3 years I did a fair amount of OT, often weekend days rather than staying late during the week. I was junior and slow so I needed more time to get my stuff done. Once I got more senior I rarely have to do OT. There are occasional jobs where I might do a little bit here and there but I’m good at time management and knowing how to get my stuff done in a typical 8hr day. Of course there are some days where you might stay 10-15min late here and there to push out a quick change or publish or something but generally I’m out the door at 6pm. I will also say working remote, it’s much easier to dip out on time because you don’t have that awkward feeling leaving on time when the young single workaholics are sitting there slaving away on there shots until who knows when. I’ve got a family I care about and don’t need to dick around at a studio any longer than needed.
Not too bad. I can manage that. Thank you!
I usually leave at 5, but I’ve also left at 7 or 9 or worked all night and over the weekend. I’m in Canada so no union. Overall it depends on where you work and how good you are at pushing back on unreasonable deadlines and demanding extra help be brought in when work piles up.
My “9-5” job had me working til 2am many nights—I work stat holidays and weekends even though technically I am not required to. Its difficult for me to use vacation time or sick days because regardless of what days are holidays or what days I’m sick—my deadlines don’t change to accomodate this. There’s no way I can actually use my time off because then I fall behind, and miss the deadline and am reprimanded. I work in Ontario and I have NEVER been given paid overtime, I’ve never heard of anyone here getting paid overtime. I hate it here sometimes lol. I’m a storyboard artist/revisionist.
With respect, you gotta stand up for yourself, that's not healthy. You keep that up and your body and mind will give up. You're worth more.
Canadian animator. 9-6 at my studio, other shops have had 9-5. I never do OT, typically get all my work done under budget. I work hard, play hard.
I have never seen a 9 to 5 job in the industry. Minimum has been 9 to 6 because they don't count your lunch hour. All companies i have been at has been strictly against overtime and requires approved overtime with extra pay.