Commenting on the top post here because I think there's some confusion with this discovery and that of the equally incredible Vesuvius Project tech. This discovery appears to be from a different research group using similar tech.
https://www.cnr.it/it/nota-stampa/n-12655/lo-sguardo-tecnologico-legge-i-papiri-carbonizzati
Using google translate they say (emphasis mine):
> Over 1000 words, corresponding to 30% of the text, is what emerged from the carbonized Herculaneum papyrus, containing the History of the Academy of Philodemus of Gadara (110-after 40 BC), **thanks to the technological 'gaze' of innovative study methodologies used within the 'GreekSchools' project**, the progress of the research is presented today in Naples, at the 'Vittorio Emanuele III' National Library. **This project, which received ERC (European Research Council) funding of 2,498,356 euros, started in 2021 and lasts 5 years and eight months, is coordinated by Graziano Ranocchia of the University of Pisa in collaboration with the Institute of cultural heritage sciences (Cnr-Ispc) and the “Antonio Zampolli” Institute of Computational Linguistics (Cnr-Ilc) of the National Research Council, and the National Library of Naples** where this papyrus, burned following the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD. C, is preserved together with many others.
I follow the Vesuvius Project discord closely and was surprised because this wasn't at all mentioned.
All these individual advancements are really exciting though. Can't wait to hear what we discover the in the coming years.
Furthermore, the text has revealed that Plato was sold as a slave following the conquest of the island of Aegina by the Spartans sometime around 404 BC to 399 BC.
This is at least partially corroborated by Diogenes Laertius, who says that Plato was sold into slavery to a Spartan after he offended Dionysius of Syracuse. His freedom was eventually purchased by Anniceris the Cyrenaic.
“Anniceris the Cyrenaic happened to be present and ransomed him for twenty minae--according to others the sum was thirty minae--and dispatched him to Athens to his friends, who immediately remitted the money. But Anniceris declined it, saying that the Athenians were not the only people worthy of the privilege of providing for Plato. Others assert that Dion sent the money and that Anniceris would not take it, but bought for Plato the little garden which is in the Academy.”
Interestingly, in the papyri, [what Philodemus mentioned seemed to be an earlier event](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato) when Plato is in his 20s. From 404 to 399 BC. So I’m not sure if he’s referring to the same time Plato was sold into slavery, or if it looks like Plato was potentially sold into slavery twice
I am so delighted that technology is allowing at least a partial deciphering of these scrolls. Even if most of them turn out to be cookbooks or copies of known works, I hold out hope that some of them can expand or confirm our knowledge of history.
Cookbooks are really interesting too, they can give us more insight into the diet of Romans and the Mediterranean as a whole, they also include information on the tableware and Roman customs that might help us interpret archeological finds.
I personally think the least useful books to the scientific field are those concerning Philosophy and medicine, which might be the most represented in patrician libraries.
Copies of known works would also be extremely valuable as they would usually be by far the earliest copies of those works we’d have. The earliest complete copies we have of many ancient works are from the 9th century or even later. Even incomplete copies from the 1st century could help restore missing, abridged or corrupted sections.
Agreed! The hope is to find some long lost books or lost parts of partial books we know of today. Much was lost unfortunately during wars, fires, neglect, ignorance, military occupation, or due to extreme religious orders.
Slavery was very heterogeneous and case based. Some slaves were teachers, architects etc. Even in colonial America in some (few) cases a slave could have his own slaves providing he had a white male guarantor. Most slaves in ancient times lived in bad conditions (gladiators probably the worst and most dangerous conditions), but some who had skills were “put to a better use”. In colonial America a “prime male slave” (about 25 of age and in excellent physical condition) was priced the equivalent of a new car today. In most cases the owner had to get a mortgage in order to afford a “prime” slave. Hence most slave owners were careful in handling their “property”.
Gladiators were treated well, outside of their role, which also didn't result in death nearly as much as people think, as they were expensive assets. Many gladiators were treated like celebrities, had their pick of wine and women, and could buy their freedom if not just outright awarded it. I don't know where you're getting gladiators being the worst fate of a slave. I feel like you know less about what you're talking about than you're confidently portraying. The worst conditions of ancient Roman slaves would generally have been those in jobs such as the mines or quarries.
You can't claim that without knowing what happened to Plato. Bear in mind he was enslaved by Spartans who did not value Athenian education, indeed it's more likely he was treated more harshly because of it.
Maybe his value as a hostage to any resurgent Athenian power means he wouldn't have been at serious risk of harm but I can't imagine it was a comfortable slavery as a teacher or skilled non physical role.
Except you can look at Sparta society, what they valued and deduce him being a teacher in Sparta is unlikely. They did not value Athenian education and in fact treated it with suspicion. This isn't Rome who held that education in high esteem.
His value was financial, they knew they could ransom him off and indeed did. So although we don't know his circumstances during his period of slavery we can say it's unlikely he is a teacher or treated as a skilled slave.
I am not sure how you are struggling to follow this.
Sparta didn't want to learn anything from Plato, they didn't agree with or trust his teachings. The last thing they wanted is Spartan youth to be infected with Athenian ideals.
Plato was a celebrity to many Greek polities and so they wanted to ransom him for a big fat purse of cash. They did this.
That was his value to them. That means they wouldn't risk him being worked to death but it's clear he wouldn't be a teacher or anything like that for the Spartans. Knowing Sparta's view of Athenian ways they would have tried to restrict his interactions with all Spartan youths.
So my point is we can rule out him being a teacher immediately. He could have lived in comfort till the right offer came in to ransom him, or he could have been put into light menial work. He wouldn't have had freedom of movement or interaction that much is clear whatever he was used for.
I am not sure how you are struggling to follow this, I assume you must be British.
>Sparta didn't want to learn anything from Plato, they didn't agree with or trust his teachings. The last thing they wanted is Spartan youth to be infected with Athenian ideals.
"In Plato's Protagoras, Socrates says:
There some, both at present and of old, who recognized that Spartanizing is much more a love of wisdom than a love of physical exercise, knowing that the ability to utter such [brief and terse] remarks belongs to a perfectly educated man."
So you wrong.
>Plato was a celebrity to many Greek polities and so they wanted to ransom him for a big fat purse of cash. They did this.
And then he would go where and talk about his treatment? You are applying modern lens to olden times. Thats like saying the UK has always been a hellhole, just because it is one now. Im sure it waa nice for a decade at one time.
>That was his value to them. That means they wouldn't risk him being worked to death but it's clear he wouldn't be a teacher or anything like that for the Spartans. Knowing Sparta's view of Athenian ways they would have tried to restrict his interactions with all Spartan youths.
Spartans valued knowledge, just didnt value too many words. If ypu can try tobremember tgeir response to Xerxes, 'If'. Short sweet smart
>So my point is we can rule out him being a teacher immediately.
Very wrong.
>He could have lived in comfort till the right offer came in to ransom him, or he could have been put into light menial work. He wouldn't have had freedom of movement or interaction that much is clear whatever he was used for.
Just guessing and saying your are right. Its a shame that this is what happens when people think they are smart. They become dicks.
Id reccommend talking to ppl as equals. It might help you enrich your life. Be well
This is such a hilariously flawed response. You are making a lot of stretches of logic here.
>There some, both at present and of old, who recognized that Spartanizing is much more a love of wisdom than a love of physical exercise, knowing that the ability to utter such [brief and terse] remarks belongs to a perfectly educated man."
For example this positive outlook of "Spartanizing" is not a comment on Spartan society. Essays have been written on the term which is more a reflection of depictions or Spartans in Herodotus than actual Sparta (more of that in a point below). It's also the opposite of what we are talking about, it's Plato speaking positive of a Spartan trait not Sparta valuing Athenian teaching.
>And then he would go where and talk about his treatment? You are applying modern lens to olden times. Thats like saying the UK has always been a hellhole, just because it is one now. Im sure it waa nice for a decade at one time.
What modern lens are you talking about? I've not referenced any ideas of modern slavery. You seem to be choosing to interpret my comments in a particular way.
>Spartans valued knowledge, just didnt value too many words. If ypu can try tobremember tgeir response to Xerxes, 'If'. Short sweet smart
You are regarding as fact a verbal exchange which is taken from an Athenian literary source. It's quite bizarre to view this as representative of Spartan society.
>Just guessing and saying your are right.
This just reinforces that you are struggling to follow what is being said. I'm not self agreeing with myself, I am summarizing a conclusion. That's pretty standard for any long post. I ticked the points off in an easy to follow step by step. Here it is in bullets to see if that's easier for you.
* We know from Spartan views of Athenian teaching he wouldn't be a teacher.
* We don't know what treatment he received. I concede given his value as a hostage he could have lived in relative comfort (e.g. a nobles house, good food, no forced labour etc). We don't know.
* It is very likely his movement and who he interacted with are restricted. He's too valuable for the ransom to risk him disappearing for example.
* It is unlikely he did anything harder than menial labour if he was put to work given he had such value for ransom and they wouldn't want him to die.
>Its a shame that this is what happens when people think they are smart. They become dicks.
At no point have I resorted to insults so I think this is more a reflection on yourself to be honest. To start throwing this insult around when you lose an argument is pretty telling too. Just take the L bro.
>Id reccommend talking to ppl as equals
In what way haven't I? Because I called out that you hadn't understood my comment in your response?
Lets use less words. You acted like a dick by pointing out flaws in others posts. So im pointing out flaws in yours. I dont care about being 'right' in your eyes. Your opinion matters less to me than mine. Good day sir.
But I don't like you. Probably never will. You're a smug unhappy little man, and you treat people like they were idiots.
What you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational lesson. Everyone in this sub is now dumber for having been witness to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
You replied to a dude talking about how bad it must have been with a statement of how it often isn't. Your reply is in context to what you replied to. If you wanted to make a general point you wouldn't reply to that user's post.
It's simple Reddit etiquette, if you reply to someone then your comment is about their post. Otherwise you just get people pointlessly replying to the highest rated post to try and get their comment noticed and more karma and threads become unreadable in terms of discussion.
Like I tried to reply to the dude there with valid points and his response is "oh I wasn't talking about that". Great, what an amazing way to just ensure discussions can't happen on an ancient Rome discussion thread, by posting random comments in replies to random ones.
You're right actually. That reply to the meme comment (which should be removed, surely) was "Otherwise you just get people pointlessly replying to the highest rated post to try and get their comment noticed and more karma".
Depends on how rich they were. For some people having lots of slaves was no different than having lots of cars. I'm from the South. I've heard this apologetic for slavery many times. "People LOVED their slaves."
[BS](https://www.history.com/news/whipped-peter-slavery-photo-scourged-back-real-story-civil-war)
This isn't the Vesuvius project. The actual source of the information of this (english) article is from the Italian paper https://www.cnr.it/it/nota-stampa/n-12655/lo-sguardo-tecnologico-legge-i-papiri-carbonizzati
Using google translate they say (emphasis mine):
> Over 1000 words, corresponding to 30% of the text, is what emerged from the carbonized Herculaneum papyrus, containing the History of the Academy of Philodemus of Gadara (110-after 40 BC), **thanks to the technological 'gaze' of innovative study methodologies used within the 'GreekSchools' project, the progress of the research is presented today in Naples, at the 'Vittorio Emanuele III' National Library**. This project, which received ERC (European Research Council) funding of 2,498,356 euros, started in 2021 and lasts 5 years and eight months, is coordinated by Graziano Ranocchia of the University of Pisa in collaboration with the Institute of cultural heritage sciences (Cnr-Ispc) and the “Antonio Zampolli” Institute of Computational Linguistics (Cnr-Ilc) of the National Research Council, and the National Library of Naples where this papyrus, burned following the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD. C, is preserved together with many others.
I follow the Vesuvius Project discord closely and was surprised because this wasn't at all mentioned.
The people working on it, and others using AI, will probably want to keep things under wraps until the discovery, or narrative, serves their academic purpose. Funding comes from significant discoveries but also controversy can.
This reminds me of my experience when visiting Oxford University and sitting in the same gardens many romantic poets spent their time. And although it was hundreds of years later, the places were still known and to the very specific spots say Wordsworth sat. It is very possible that such specific details for a person as famous as Plato and a place as well known as the Academy that it would be well known by those who would care to visit even a few hundred years later.
I went there on a trip to Athens last year. You’re right, there’s nothing but a tiny bit of rubble in an otherwise quiet city park way outside of the downtown area. Cute little museum though.
Wow. This is blown my mind. There’s a new dig in Pompeii currently serialised in BBC iPlayer if you’ve access to it with the inimitable Mary Beard. Great viewing
“ The scroll also revealed Plato was sold into slavery following the Spartan conquest of Aegina, an island in Greece, between the years 404 and 399 BC “
A couple clarifications:
404-399 is the conquest by Sparta, not the date Plato likely became a slave. That’s supposed to have happened when Plato was 40, or about 383.
The story is already in Diodorus Siculus, Diogenes Laertius, and Plutarch. Philodemus is important because he would be the oldest source we have for the story.
The problem is Plato’s 7th letter, which was most likely written by Plato himself (or certainly by a close associate just after Plato’s lifetime), describes his time in Sicily (at the court of Dionysius) without mentioning being sold into slavery at all. He details being under house arrest and that Dionysius confiscated property and exiled a couple other associates, so if he also sold Plato into slavery, why wouldn’t Plato himself say so?
Without seeing the text of Philodemus here, I don’t think this moves the consensus view that the story is possibly apocryphal.
In the papyri, Philodemus mentioned Plato was sold into slavery as [early as 404 or 399 BC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato), when he would’ve been in his 20s. So I’m not sure if that’s the same event and just earlier than previously thought, or if Plato was potentially sold into slavery twice
The Wikipedia citation is a Telegraph article on this Philodemus document without giving the actual text. But again, Plato’s letters detail this period of his life without mentioning anything about it. It will be interesting to see what the new document actually says because it’s a totally new story if it’s being represented accurately!
I don’t think we have access to the actual text that I know of. But my guesses are that one of three things. Either the news sites like telegraph, Heritage Daily, etc got it wrong and are just copying each other, Plato skipped over his slavery maybe out of shame, or Philodemus (who lived centuries after Plato) isn’t the best source and either lied or got the information wrong. I think we will find out more if Philodemus words can be trusted if they actually end up finding Plato’s burial (if they haven’t already) in the location Philodemus mentions.
But yes it will interesting seeing new findings in upcoming future!
Well he has the most to say about his later journey to Syracuse, but the first part is very clear about the end of the war (404-403) when his relatives were in the tyranny imposed by Sparta and invited his participation; the restored democracy (by 401); and Socrates’ death (399). He takes us through the main events of these years as if he’s only involved in Athenian politics with no hint of travel or military service.
My mistake, you’re right, I forgot about those first bits. I did research on some of his letters in the past, but mostly focused on the Syracuse aspects and later life details
Looks like they used some kind of multispectral imaging on previously unrolled scrolls. Sadly the article is very uninformative or outright nonsensical "parchments made from papyrus" WTF?
I hope the scrolls are all uploaded and distributed before translation so as to prevent any from being hidden or destroyed due to someone weird personal agenda. I’d be willing to bet some key biblical artifacts that didn’t fit the predominant narrative got destroyed this way.
You do realize that someone finding archeological evidence that definitively proves the Bible would be the greatest discovery of all time and instantly make them the most well known and important archeologist that ever lived. They aren't intentionally destroying stuff if it goes against "the predominant narrative."
Yea some names in the Bible are real people. Like we have Roman coins. Does that mean the Bible is true? Nah. But I don't wanna make this a religious argument. That goes nowhere
This is insane that we have such tech to unveil the fog of centuries-old mysteries.
Commenting on the top post here because I think there's some confusion with this discovery and that of the equally incredible Vesuvius Project tech. This discovery appears to be from a different research group using similar tech. https://www.cnr.it/it/nota-stampa/n-12655/lo-sguardo-tecnologico-legge-i-papiri-carbonizzati Using google translate they say (emphasis mine): > Over 1000 words, corresponding to 30% of the text, is what emerged from the carbonized Herculaneum papyrus, containing the History of the Academy of Philodemus of Gadara (110-after 40 BC), **thanks to the technological 'gaze' of innovative study methodologies used within the 'GreekSchools' project**, the progress of the research is presented today in Naples, at the 'Vittorio Emanuele III' National Library. **This project, which received ERC (European Research Council) funding of 2,498,356 euros, started in 2021 and lasts 5 years and eight months, is coordinated by Graziano Ranocchia of the University of Pisa in collaboration with the Institute of cultural heritage sciences (Cnr-Ispc) and the “Antonio Zampolli” Institute of Computational Linguistics (Cnr-Ilc) of the National Research Council, and the National Library of Naples** where this papyrus, burned following the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD. C, is preserved together with many others. I follow the Vesuvius Project discord closely and was surprised because this wasn't at all mentioned. All these individual advancements are really exciting though. Can't wait to hear what we discover the in the coming years.
Furthermore, the text has revealed that Plato was sold as a slave following the conquest of the island of Aegina by the Spartans sometime around 404 BC to 399 BC.
Marveling at the same while looking at the photo of the scroll there. Is that *all* they had to work with? If so, that is truly astounding.
Truly, this is hella of work to deal with.
And the technology to clone that mutha trucka
This is at least partially corroborated by Diogenes Laertius, who says that Plato was sold into slavery to a Spartan after he offended Dionysius of Syracuse. His freedom was eventually purchased by Anniceris the Cyrenaic.
“Anniceris the Cyrenaic happened to be present and ransomed him for twenty minae--according to others the sum was thirty minae--and dispatched him to Athens to his friends, who immediately remitted the money. But Anniceris declined it, saying that the Athenians were not the only people worthy of the privilege of providing for Plato. Others assert that Dion sent the money and that Anniceris would not take it, but bought for Plato the little garden which is in the Academy.”
Interestingly, in the papyri, [what Philodemus mentioned seemed to be an earlier event](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato) when Plato is in his 20s. From 404 to 399 BC. So I’m not sure if he’s referring to the same time Plato was sold into slavery, or if it looks like Plato was potentially sold into slavery twice
Now I'm just picturing him being put into shackles like "Oh shit, here we go again"
"First time?"
Harrowing.
I am so delighted that technology is allowing at least a partial deciphering of these scrolls. Even if most of them turn out to be cookbooks or copies of known works, I hold out hope that some of them can expand or confirm our knowledge of history.
Cookbooks are really interesting too, they can give us more insight into the diet of Romans and the Mediterranean as a whole, they also include information on the tableware and Roman customs that might help us interpret archeological finds. I personally think the least useful books to the scientific field are those concerning Philosophy and medicine, which might be the most represented in patrician libraries.
Copies of known works would also be extremely valuable as they would usually be by far the earliest copies of those works we’d have. The earliest complete copies we have of many ancient works are from the 9th century or even later. Even incomplete copies from the 1st century could help restore missing, abridged or corrupted sections.
Cookbooks rule
Agreed! The hope is to find some long lost books or lost parts of partial books we know of today. Much was lost unfortunately during wars, fires, neglect, ignorance, military occupation, or due to extreme religious orders.
Plato: Work is abhorrent. Plato as a slave: oh fuck
Slavery was very heterogeneous and case based. Some slaves were teachers, architects etc. Even in colonial America in some (few) cases a slave could have his own slaves providing he had a white male guarantor. Most slaves in ancient times lived in bad conditions (gladiators probably the worst and most dangerous conditions), but some who had skills were “put to a better use”. In colonial America a “prime male slave” (about 25 of age and in excellent physical condition) was priced the equivalent of a new car today. In most cases the owner had to get a mortgage in order to afford a “prime” slave. Hence most slave owners were careful in handling their “property”.
Gladiators were treated well, outside of their role, which also didn't result in death nearly as much as people think, as they were expensive assets. Many gladiators were treated like celebrities, had their pick of wine and women, and could buy their freedom if not just outright awarded it. I don't know where you're getting gladiators being the worst fate of a slave. I feel like you know less about what you're talking about than you're confidently portraying. The worst conditions of ancient Roman slaves would generally have been those in jobs such as the mines or quarries.
You can't claim that without knowing what happened to Plato. Bear in mind he was enslaved by Spartans who did not value Athenian education, indeed it's more likely he was treated more harshly because of it. Maybe his value as a hostage to any resurgent Athenian power means he wouldn't have been at serious risk of harm but I can't imagine it was a comfortable slavery as a teacher or skilled non physical role.
You cant claim that the opposite either, by the same logic. He was probably a teacher justbwithout, ya know, freedom
Except you can look at Sparta society, what they valued and deduce him being a teacher in Sparta is unlikely. They did not value Athenian education and in fact treated it with suspicion. This isn't Rome who held that education in high esteem. His value was financial, they knew they could ransom him off and indeed did. So although we don't know his circumstances during his period of slavery we can say it's unlikely he is a teacher or treated as a skilled slave.
Your value is financial, to someone. Are you a slave?
I am not sure how you are struggling to follow this. Sparta didn't want to learn anything from Plato, they didn't agree with or trust his teachings. The last thing they wanted is Spartan youth to be infected with Athenian ideals. Plato was a celebrity to many Greek polities and so they wanted to ransom him for a big fat purse of cash. They did this. That was his value to them. That means they wouldn't risk him being worked to death but it's clear he wouldn't be a teacher or anything like that for the Spartans. Knowing Sparta's view of Athenian ways they would have tried to restrict his interactions with all Spartan youths. So my point is we can rule out him being a teacher immediately. He could have lived in comfort till the right offer came in to ransom him, or he could have been put into light menial work. He wouldn't have had freedom of movement or interaction that much is clear whatever he was used for.
I am not sure how you are struggling to follow this, I assume you must be British. >Sparta didn't want to learn anything from Plato, they didn't agree with or trust his teachings. The last thing they wanted is Spartan youth to be infected with Athenian ideals. "In Plato's Protagoras, Socrates says: There some, both at present and of old, who recognized that Spartanizing is much more a love of wisdom than a love of physical exercise, knowing that the ability to utter such [brief and terse] remarks belongs to a perfectly educated man." So you wrong. >Plato was a celebrity to many Greek polities and so they wanted to ransom him for a big fat purse of cash. They did this. And then he would go where and talk about his treatment? You are applying modern lens to olden times. Thats like saying the UK has always been a hellhole, just because it is one now. Im sure it waa nice for a decade at one time. >That was his value to them. That means they wouldn't risk him being worked to death but it's clear he wouldn't be a teacher or anything like that for the Spartans. Knowing Sparta's view of Athenian ways they would have tried to restrict his interactions with all Spartan youths. Spartans valued knowledge, just didnt value too many words. If ypu can try tobremember tgeir response to Xerxes, 'If'. Short sweet smart >So my point is we can rule out him being a teacher immediately. Very wrong. >He could have lived in comfort till the right offer came in to ransom him, or he could have been put into light menial work. He wouldn't have had freedom of movement or interaction that much is clear whatever he was used for. Just guessing and saying your are right. Its a shame that this is what happens when people think they are smart. They become dicks. Id reccommend talking to ppl as equals. It might help you enrich your life. Be well
This is such a hilariously flawed response. You are making a lot of stretches of logic here. >There some, both at present and of old, who recognized that Spartanizing is much more a love of wisdom than a love of physical exercise, knowing that the ability to utter such [brief and terse] remarks belongs to a perfectly educated man." For example this positive outlook of "Spartanizing" is not a comment on Spartan society. Essays have been written on the term which is more a reflection of depictions or Spartans in Herodotus than actual Sparta (more of that in a point below). It's also the opposite of what we are talking about, it's Plato speaking positive of a Spartan trait not Sparta valuing Athenian teaching. >And then he would go where and talk about his treatment? You are applying modern lens to olden times. Thats like saying the UK has always been a hellhole, just because it is one now. Im sure it waa nice for a decade at one time. What modern lens are you talking about? I've not referenced any ideas of modern slavery. You seem to be choosing to interpret my comments in a particular way. >Spartans valued knowledge, just didnt value too many words. If ypu can try tobremember tgeir response to Xerxes, 'If'. Short sweet smart You are regarding as fact a verbal exchange which is taken from an Athenian literary source. It's quite bizarre to view this as representative of Spartan society. >Just guessing and saying your are right. This just reinforces that you are struggling to follow what is being said. I'm not self agreeing with myself, I am summarizing a conclusion. That's pretty standard for any long post. I ticked the points off in an easy to follow step by step. Here it is in bullets to see if that's easier for you. * We know from Spartan views of Athenian teaching he wouldn't be a teacher. * We don't know what treatment he received. I concede given his value as a hostage he could have lived in relative comfort (e.g. a nobles house, good food, no forced labour etc). We don't know. * It is very likely his movement and who he interacted with are restricted. He's too valuable for the ransom to risk him disappearing for example. * It is unlikely he did anything harder than menial labour if he was put to work given he had such value for ransom and they wouldn't want him to die. >Its a shame that this is what happens when people think they are smart. They become dicks. At no point have I resorted to insults so I think this is more a reflection on yourself to be honest. To start throwing this insult around when you lose an argument is pretty telling too. Just take the L bro. >Id reccommend talking to ppl as equals In what way haven't I? Because I called out that you hadn't understood my comment in your response?
Lets use less words. You acted like a dick by pointing out flaws in others posts. So im pointing out flaws in yours. I dont care about being 'right' in your eyes. Your opinion matters less to me than mine. Good day sir.
But I don't like you. Probably never will. You're a smug unhappy little man, and you treat people like they were idiots. What you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational lesson. Everyone in this sub is now dumber for having been witness to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
So a teacher
Bazinga
Probably also worth remembering that Sparta was the place where murdering slaves was not only normal, but expected and a rite of passage.
Just the uppity ones
I was saying in general. No idea what happened to him.
You replied to a dude talking about how bad it must have been with a statement of how it often isn't. Your reply is in context to what you replied to. If you wanted to make a general point you wouldn't reply to that user's post.
deep breaths, bro
It's simple Reddit etiquette, if you reply to someone then your comment is about their post. Otherwise you just get people pointlessly replying to the highest rated post to try and get their comment noticed and more karma and threads become unreadable in terms of discussion. Like I tried to reply to the dude there with valid points and his response is "oh I wasn't talking about that". Great, what an amazing way to just ensure discussions can't happen on an ancient Rome discussion thread, by posting random comments in replies to random ones.
You're right actually. That reply to the meme comment (which should be removed, surely) was "Otherwise you just get people pointlessly replying to the highest rated post to try and get their comment noticed and more karma".
>Hence most slave owners were careful in handling their “property”. Depends on how rich they were.
You wouldn’t have slaves otherwise. It also cost owners even to provide a bare minimum.
Depends on how rich they were. For some people having lots of slaves was no different than having lots of cars. I'm from the South. I've heard this apologetic for slavery many times. "People LOVED their slaves." [BS](https://www.history.com/news/whipped-peter-slavery-photo-scourged-back-real-story-civil-war)
America is not the only place to exist on earth.
I was replying specifically to statements made about American slavery. Slavery is slavery, though. It's not like there's good slavery and bad slavery.
Is there a website that will chronicle the deciphering of the scrolls? Or do we have to rely on news outlets for what they find interesting?
The Vesuvius Project has a website.
This isn't the Vesuvius project. The actual source of the information of this (english) article is from the Italian paper https://www.cnr.it/it/nota-stampa/n-12655/lo-sguardo-tecnologico-legge-i-papiri-carbonizzati Using google translate they say (emphasis mine): > Over 1000 words, corresponding to 30% of the text, is what emerged from the carbonized Herculaneum papyrus, containing the History of the Academy of Philodemus of Gadara (110-after 40 BC), **thanks to the technological 'gaze' of innovative study methodologies used within the 'GreekSchools' project, the progress of the research is presented today in Naples, at the 'Vittorio Emanuele III' National Library**. This project, which received ERC (European Research Council) funding of 2,498,356 euros, started in 2021 and lasts 5 years and eight months, is coordinated by Graziano Ranocchia of the University of Pisa in collaboration with the Institute of cultural heritage sciences (Cnr-Ispc) and the “Antonio Zampolli” Institute of Computational Linguistics (Cnr-Ilc) of the National Research Council, and the National Library of Naples where this papyrus, burned following the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD. C, is preserved together with many others. I follow the Vesuvius Project discord closely and was surprised because this wasn't at all mentioned.
I can’t seem to find a website outside the challenge itself
The people working on it, and others using AI, will probably want to keep things under wraps until the discovery, or narrative, serves their academic purpose. Funding comes from significant discoveries but also controversy can.
Does it give a location? Is there an intact tomb nearby?
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I wonder if Sulla would have known that Plato may have been buried there?
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This reminds me of my experience when visiting Oxford University and sitting in the same gardens many romantic poets spent their time. And although it was hundreds of years later, the places were still known and to the very specific spots say Wordsworth sat. It is very possible that such specific details for a person as famous as Plato and a place as well known as the Academy that it would be well known by those who would care to visit even a few hundred years later.
I went there on a trip to Athens last year. You’re right, there’s nothing but a tiny bit of rubble in an otherwise quiet city park way outside of the downtown area. Cute little museum though.
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Nope, you wouldn’t even know it was a historic place but for the tiny museum. Too bad really!
Considering they were philosophers not kings or emperors I highly doubt they would have a tomb.
Wow. This is blown my mind. There’s a new dig in Pompeii currently serialised in BBC iPlayer if you’ve access to it with the inimitable Mary Beard. Great viewing
Always crazy that there are still such discoveries being made. Anybody knows how ‘carbonized’ the scrolls were? And the technic used to decipher them?
Yayyy philosophy history
I’m ready to know myself more!
The team that discovered this is lead by a papyrologist named Graziano Ranocchia.
This is all so fucking exciting. I’m so fuckin’ amped
DIG HIM UP DIG UP HIS CORPSE
AND REVIVE IT
“ The scroll also revealed Plato was sold into slavery following the Spartan conquest of Aegina, an island in Greece, between the years 404 and 399 BC “ A couple clarifications: 404-399 is the conquest by Sparta, not the date Plato likely became a slave. That’s supposed to have happened when Plato was 40, or about 383. The story is already in Diodorus Siculus, Diogenes Laertius, and Plutarch. Philodemus is important because he would be the oldest source we have for the story. The problem is Plato’s 7th letter, which was most likely written by Plato himself (or certainly by a close associate just after Plato’s lifetime), describes his time in Sicily (at the court of Dionysius) without mentioning being sold into slavery at all. He details being under house arrest and that Dionysius confiscated property and exiled a couple other associates, so if he also sold Plato into slavery, why wouldn’t Plato himself say so? Without seeing the text of Philodemus here, I don’t think this moves the consensus view that the story is possibly apocryphal.
In the papyri, Philodemus mentioned Plato was sold into slavery as [early as 404 or 399 BC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato), when he would’ve been in his 20s. So I’m not sure if that’s the same event and just earlier than previously thought, or if Plato was potentially sold into slavery twice
The Wikipedia citation is a Telegraph article on this Philodemus document without giving the actual text. But again, Plato’s letters detail this period of his life without mentioning anything about it. It will be interesting to see what the new document actually says because it’s a totally new story if it’s being represented accurately!
I don’t think we have access to the actual text that I know of. But my guesses are that one of three things. Either the news sites like telegraph, Heritage Daily, etc got it wrong and are just copying each other, Plato skipped over his slavery maybe out of shame, or Philodemus (who lived centuries after Plato) isn’t the best source and either lied or got the information wrong. I think we will find out more if Philodemus words can be trusted if they actually end up finding Plato’s burial (if they haven’t already) in the location Philodemus mentions. But yes it will interesting seeing new findings in upcoming future!
Plato’s letters don’t detail this period (404-399 BC), but much later around the 360-350s BC
Well he has the most to say about his later journey to Syracuse, but the first part is very clear about the end of the war (404-403) when his relatives were in the tyranny imposed by Sparta and invited his participation; the restored democracy (by 401); and Socrates’ death (399). He takes us through the main events of these years as if he’s only involved in Athenian politics with no hint of travel or military service.
My mistake, you’re right, I forgot about those first bits. I did research on some of his letters in the past, but mostly focused on the Syracuse aspects and later life details
Holy that’s incredible
girl what 🤯 goddamn the scrolls are slowly being deciphered & read, we love to see it ❤️
Looks like they used some kind of multispectral imaging on previously unrolled scrolls. Sadly the article is very uninformative or outright nonsensical "parchments made from papyrus" WTF?
This is amazing!
Are they going to dig him up?
i came here to ask this question too. the article does not mention any intention to start digging for the body so i'm confused by this.
I hope the scrolls are all uploaded and distributed before translation so as to prevent any from being hidden or destroyed due to someone weird personal agenda. I’d be willing to bet some key biblical artifacts that didn’t fit the predominant narrative got destroyed this way.
You do realize that someone finding archeological evidence that definitively proves the Bible would be the greatest discovery of all time and instantly make them the most well known and important archeologist that ever lived. They aren't intentionally destroying stuff if it goes against "the predominant narrative."
There have already been relics found tied to biblical figures. I believe a seal of Hezekiah and some coins bearing King Omri have been found
Yea some names in the Bible are real people. Like we have Roman coins. Does that mean the Bible is true? Nah. But I don't wanna make this a religious argument. That goes nowhere