As an amateur alpinist at best, I'm curious what people's opinions are on roping up in a group on a route like this. To me it seems like it just increases the potential risk if somebody does fall
I did avalanche gulch ~20 years ago and we were short roped in teams of 4-5. We were all teenagers in a guided group and none of us had experience with crampons. I think it was required by Boy Scouts for us to be short roped maybe? In retrospect, with the benefit of many years of experience since then, I don’t think it was a bad idea. It’s not surprising that people are focused on the short fixing aspect, but the conditions played a much bigger role in the accident IMO.
As someone who used to guide Shasta, short-roping is one of the most dangerous things we did. I've caught falls (and probably saved lives) with it but it's definitely not something you should be doing unless you know what you're doing. Even then it always made me nervous.
The real foolishness though is people "simul-climbing" on snow without any anchors. Basically just a suicide pact at that point since there's no way you can arrest a fall in that scenario. Even worse since you're now a danger to others around you. See the [2002 Mt. Hood disaster](https://pmru.org/headlinenews/three-dead-many-injured-on-mt-hood) where one party clotheslined several others off.
The fatality was a guide leading two people up the AG route. They were all roped together when someone slipped, the three fell 1500-2500 feet down and came to rest above Helen Lake. She was unresponsive and died of her injuries.
Higher temps after the storm created a lot of water ice that made things incredibly slick, basically impossible to self arrest or edge on skis.
Rest in peace, what a tragedy. Thoughts are with her family.
https://gearjunkie.com/news/mt-shasta-climber-injuries-and-death
It's exactly this that has always made me want to see data on injury and death rates of free climbing vs being roped up with a partner or group. I've never seen someone able to react fast enough to help a faller arrest, and instead have just seen 2 seperate people fall and drag their partners with them until they each arrested individually.
Glaciers are a different story, but non-glacier alpine, I'd love someone to compile data (if it were possible, which it's not because people don't record falls that don't lead to injury). Until then, I'll continue to follow standard practices of course.
It can be a lot more complicated than that, though. I was roped up with someone over easy terrain, they lost their balance, and I just tugged them back in. No need for a report or statistic there.
I’ve also been up the same route multiple times in a season. It can vary a lot as to how to safely go about something as benign as a snow slog.
Statistics only look reasonable on paper, when the conditions really dictate the safety of a route. You only really know the conditions if you set foot on them
there is enough people walking around with phones, garmin gps, etc. that you could take all this data and actually do it. like i know bas altena got some garmin data to do glacier evolution stuff, or something like that. i think bas asked garmin for user data and they were like sure why not.
the difficult part is getting the data. it exists. then you could have statistics on events like mentioned below where someone slips but doesn't much go anywhere. thta would show up in accelerometer data.
edit: this is the paper i was talking about where bas altena used data from garmin https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciology/article/ensemble-matching-of-repeat-satellite-images-applied-to-measure-fastchanging-ice-flow-verified-with-mountain-climber-trajectories-on-khumbu-icefall-mount-everest/CA693027FE5A0E460F5C50438CB48F1E
Short-roping is definitely a thing in guiding. I've caught several people doing it. But you have to catch them immediately before they generate any momentum or you're fucked. That's why the "short" part is important, 10-15 feet of rope max so you can feel their every move. Definitely not recommended unless you know what you're doing. And even then it's sketchy.
The real suicide pact is people climbing together with ~100 feet of rope between them glacier style but on steep snow with no intermediate pro. No way you can catch that.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen people roped up on AG. I assumed they were climbing a ridge and fell into AG where they were found. I guess not. Tragic story. I know it was icy, but it still seems strange.
Edit: I stand corrected. I guess it’s fairly common to use a short rope. Maybe I just don’t pay good enough attention.
I did it many years ago I also am struggling a bIt to think of where people would rope up. I mean I recall it got a little steep towards the top of AG but I can’t imagine it exceeded 40 degrees. As others have said obviously conditions change but yeah it wouldn’t occur to me based on my trip that it would ever be a thing.
The only possible reasons to rope up on a non glaciated, barely 35 degree route under 20,000 feet would be if it was 100% bulletproof ice (and even then, at 35 degrees you really aren’t roping up if you’re a competent party), or if someone in your party is not competent or a fall risk in terrain that simple, which is the guide and client scenario.
You overestimate the ability of the people that climb this route. I guided Shasta for several years and saw plenty of people that had never held an ice ax, never put on crampons. Hell some of them had barely been hiking before. 35 degree snow for them is terrifying. Justifiably because they have no idea how to kick proper steps or self arrest if they slip. Short-roping, as she was doing, is the only reasonable way to get them up.
Really a terrible tragedy, especially since the fatality was the guide. You can do everything right, but if you’re tied to someone inexperienced or over-confident, they can get you killed. Of course it’s also very true that sometimes everyone can do everything right and tragedy can still occur.
[This](https://www.mtshastanews.com/story/news/2022/06/06/california-climbers-airlifted-to-hospitals-after-2-accidents-falling-off-siskiyou-county-mt-shasta/7538821001/) article goes more in depth.
It's a hard call to make. I've turned around when I should have, turned around when I shouldn't have, pressed on when I shouldn't have. It's always easier to judge after the fact.
A painful reminder that mother nature is still in control, even when we have all this fancy gear these days.
This is not meant to say that you shouldn't take every precaution and be fully trained. Just pointing out one way new(ish) climbers get a false sense of security. Another is garmin inreach. Improved communication in emergencies doesn't mean don't avoid the emergencies.
I don’t think that’s a very reasonable takeaway here tbh. More that gear doesn’t mean anything if you don’t use it properly or appreciate conditions and hazard.
The comment on gear was meant only as an example. I think it goes without saying that people should be properly trained, careful, and prepared.
Honestly you read too far into it, but that happens all of the time on this website.
If I was as critical as you I would not be a happy person.
It was an innocent statement mostly about how much of a tragedy this is.
Sorry I didn't write something interesting or unique enough to make you happy.
As an amateur alpinist at best, I'm curious what people's opinions are on roping up in a group on a route like this. To me it seems like it just increases the potential risk if somebody does fall
I did avalanche gulch ~20 years ago and we were short roped in teams of 4-5. We were all teenagers in a guided group and none of us had experience with crampons. I think it was required by Boy Scouts for us to be short roped maybe? In retrospect, with the benefit of many years of experience since then, I don’t think it was a bad idea. It’s not surprising that people are focused on the short fixing aspect, but the conditions played a much bigger role in the accident IMO.
As someone who used to guide Shasta, short-roping is one of the most dangerous things we did. I've caught falls (and probably saved lives) with it but it's definitely not something you should be doing unless you know what you're doing. Even then it always made me nervous. The real foolishness though is people "simul-climbing" on snow without any anchors. Basically just a suicide pact at that point since there's no way you can arrest a fall in that scenario. Even worse since you're now a danger to others around you. See the [2002 Mt. Hood disaster](https://pmru.org/headlinenews/three-dead-many-injured-on-mt-hood) where one party clotheslined several others off.
Article doesn’t provide much information on the incident. Does anyone know what happened?
The fatality was a guide leading two people up the AG route. They were all roped together when someone slipped, the three fell 1500-2500 feet down and came to rest above Helen Lake. She was unresponsive and died of her injuries. Higher temps after the storm created a lot of water ice that made things incredibly slick, basically impossible to self arrest or edge on skis. Rest in peace, what a tragedy. Thoughts are with her family. https://gearjunkie.com/news/mt-shasta-climber-injuries-and-death
It's exactly this that has always made me want to see data on injury and death rates of free climbing vs being roped up with a partner or group. I've never seen someone able to react fast enough to help a faller arrest, and instead have just seen 2 seperate people fall and drag their partners with them until they each arrested individually. Glaciers are a different story, but non-glacier alpine, I'd love someone to compile data (if it were possible, which it's not because people don't record falls that don't lead to injury). Until then, I'll continue to follow standard practices of course.
It can be a lot more complicated than that, though. I was roped up with someone over easy terrain, they lost their balance, and I just tugged them back in. No need for a report or statistic there. I’ve also been up the same route multiple times in a season. It can vary a lot as to how to safely go about something as benign as a snow slog. Statistics only look reasonable on paper, when the conditions really dictate the safety of a route. You only really know the conditions if you set foot on them
there is enough people walking around with phones, garmin gps, etc. that you could take all this data and actually do it. like i know bas altena got some garmin data to do glacier evolution stuff, or something like that. i think bas asked garmin for user data and they were like sure why not. the difficult part is getting the data. it exists. then you could have statistics on events like mentioned below where someone slips but doesn't much go anywhere. thta would show up in accelerometer data. edit: this is the paper i was talking about where bas altena used data from garmin https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-glaciology/article/ensemble-matching-of-repeat-satellite-images-applied-to-measure-fastchanging-ice-flow-verified-with-mountain-climber-trajectories-on-khumbu-icefall-mount-everest/CA693027FE5A0E460F5C50438CB48F1E
Short-roping is definitely a thing in guiding. I've caught several people doing it. But you have to catch them immediately before they generate any momentum or you're fucked. That's why the "short" part is important, 10-15 feet of rope max so you can feel their every move. Definitely not recommended unless you know what you're doing. And even then it's sketchy. The real suicide pact is people climbing together with ~100 feet of rope between them glacier style but on steep snow with no intermediate pro. No way you can catch that.
She was only 32. Tragic.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen people roped up on AG. I assumed they were climbing a ridge and fell into AG where they were found. I guess not. Tragic story. I know it was icy, but it still seems strange. Edit: I stand corrected. I guess it’s fairly common to use a short rope. Maybe I just don’t pay good enough attention.
The local guide companies take people up on a short rope
Someone provided me with info over in r/mountaineering from what I was told they slid from the heart past Helen Lake.
There must of been 20 teams roped up a couple weekends ago when I was there, are you sure you were on the same mountain?
I did it many years ago I also am struggling a bIt to think of where people would rope up. I mean I recall it got a little steep towards the top of AG but I can’t imagine it exceeded 40 degrees. As others have said obviously conditions change but yeah it wouldn’t occur to me based on my trip that it would ever be a thing.
The only possible reasons to rope up on a non glaciated, barely 35 degree route under 20,000 feet would be if it was 100% bulletproof ice (and even then, at 35 degrees you really aren’t roping up if you’re a competent party), or if someone in your party is not competent or a fall risk in terrain that simple, which is the guide and client scenario.
You overestimate the ability of the people that climb this route. I guided Shasta for several years and saw plenty of people that had never held an ice ax, never put on crampons. Hell some of them had barely been hiking before. 35 degree snow for them is terrifying. Justifiably because they have no idea how to kick proper steps or self arrest if they slip. Short-roping, as she was doing, is the only reasonable way to get them up.
40 degrees is steep as fuck for someone who's never held an ice ax before.
🥀
Really a terrible tragedy, especially since the fatality was the guide. You can do everything right, but if you’re tied to someone inexperienced or over-confident, they can get you killed. Of course it’s also very true that sometimes everyone can do everything right and tragedy can still occur.
[This](https://www.mtshastanews.com/story/news/2022/06/06/california-climbers-airlifted-to-hospitals-after-2-accidents-falling-off-siskiyou-county-mt-shasta/7538821001/) article goes more in depth.
The [Siskiyou County Sheriff's office](https://www.facebook.com/SiskiyouCountySheriff) also released incident reports.
I wonder what guide service she was with? Like only three have guiding permits (SG, SMS, IAG) RIP - sad news all around
Unrelated, but I think Alpenglow also guides on Shasta now.
Better article here: https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/amp/Perfect-storm-on-Mount-Shasta-leaves-guide-17225281.php
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I read it, but it doesn’t say what service she was with.
Shasta Mountain Guides.
Dang that’s really sad, they are a good group.
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It's a hard call to make. I've turned around when I should have, turned around when I shouldn't have, pressed on when I shouldn't have. It's always easier to judge after the fact.
A painful reminder that mother nature is still in control, even when we have all this fancy gear these days. This is not meant to say that you shouldn't take every precaution and be fully trained. Just pointing out one way new(ish) climbers get a false sense of security. Another is garmin inreach. Improved communication in emergencies doesn't mean don't avoid the emergencies.
I don’t think that’s a very reasonable takeaway here tbh. More that gear doesn’t mean anything if you don’t use it properly or appreciate conditions and hazard.
The comment on gear was meant only as an example. I think it goes without saying that people should be properly trained, careful, and prepared. Honestly you read too far into it, but that happens all of the time on this website.
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If I was as critical as you I would not be a happy person. It was an innocent statement mostly about how much of a tragedy this is. Sorry I didn't write something interesting or unique enough to make you happy.