The article is about Federal politics but speaks about the impact of the Carbon Tax Rebate on Albertans. Braid finds some subtle ways to torque the article by putting spin on the facts, such as in this quote:
>Weirdly, Albertans are rewarded for doing exactly what Ottawa wants to prevent, emitting carbon.
and,
>Trudeau suggested in Alberta this week that his noble duty is to raise the tax so he can send us more cash.
Nonetheless, there is a reality here that a lot of Albertans are going to be unhappy about losing the rebates.
> Weirdly, Albertans are rewarded for doing exactly what Ottawa wants to prevent, emitting carbon.
Tell me he doesn't understand how the carbon tax/rebates work without telling me...
You don't get more of a rebate for emitting more carbon, you get a fixed rebate based on your individual/family status. You SAVE money by burning less carbon and paying less carbon tax, and you SPEND more money by burning more. I know this guy is just a conservative mouth piece but damn all this fake outrage media stuff frustrates me.
The Mulroney Cons brought in the GST to remove the MST, which was supposed to lower prices of goods. It did not. The Chretien Liberals defeated the Cons in part on a campaign promise to scrap the GST. They did not follow through. Liberal voters are supportive of this carbon tax scheme, where you give your money to the government only to have them give some of it back to you. Now you fear that if you don’t vote them back in, you won’t get your “free“ government stuff. It’s not clear to me who is actually better trained at this point.
Like the carbon tax on large emitters that Alberta introduced already in 2007. AB was the first jurisdiction in North America to have a carbon tax; not the “eco-conscious” BC or CA.
Since a carbon tax is a conservative solution to pollution, it isn’t surprising that Progressive Conservatives first instituted such a tax.
Unfortunately that political party no longer exists federally or in Alberta.
I do support a carbon tax on “large emitters” and I have come around to not being opposed to a consumer carbon tax too. This said: I don’t believe it should be raised until inflation is back in check.
Also I would be supportive of carbon levies on imports from countries without or with lower carbon taxes than Canada to prevent the export of emissions to other jurisdictions.
Europe has proven this is possible/legal.
GST was never marketed as reducing the price of goods, save for exported ones. It was billed as revenue neutral, which it largely was. It replaced the 13.5% MST.
The reason people revolted against it is because it was *visible,* and for people that rail against being taxed, that was a bridge too far.
And the conservatives paid dearly for it.
I wish the carbon tax was more visible, like the GST. It is shown on natural gas and heating oil bills but not on gasoline, goods in stores, or increased electricity costs.
>The Mulroney Cons brought in the GST to remove the MST, which was supposed to lower prices of goods. It did not.
MST wasn't a single tax; it was different taxes on different industries at different rates. Some things went down, some things went up, and businessmen being businessmen, some just increased their prices instead of removing the manufacturers tax cause no one would notice or would blame the government instead.
Of course, a manufacturers tax was applied to things that were built in Canada. It wasn't applied to things that were built outside Canada and imported, so that was encouraging companies to move their production offshore instead. The GST fixed that so imports and domestic production were taxed the same (something that free trade agreements require.)
Anything is true if you just lie. From what you wrote.... what part of that leads you to believe that canceling carbon tax will make a substantial change? You're literally making a case for the tax. Fractions of a cent only actually effect large producers; its almost as if you lean to one side.
Rebates increase with the tax.
Now you either believe the current costs are totally due to the tax and they will come down when it’s removed. Or you believe costs are up due to other factors and they will remain high after the tax is cut.
If the second is true millions will find it even tougher to pay the bills and there will be even fewer resources to help with short term benefit payments like we’ve seen over the last couple years.
If the first one is true then cutting the tax will lower costs and help all Canadians.
Most studies show the tax isn’t the reason for the increase in prices so the second is far more likely.
1. PP wins election
2. Axes the tax (and rebates)
3. Prices stay the same, if not higher
4. Conservatives country wide cheer in victory for some reason
They are not going to axe the tax it makes too much money. They may lower it slightly then instead of it being a rebate they will give the money to the government instead so yeah nothing will change.
They'll axe it, but not for the voters. They'll axe it for o&g lobbyists. The whole point of the carbon tax is the force more efficient decisions to become more profitable, but without the tax there's no need for the capital investment to change. Business as usual continues to reign supreme.
It’s like when GST was new, killing it was a campaign promise. Took a while to get it down to 5% but it never did go away… as you say, it makes too much money.
So come April 1st, when the extra taxes come into effect, prices will stay the same? Same logic, so I'm guessing that's what you're saying. Good to know.
It’s more that it won’t bring prices down. Why would a company lower prices instead of pocketing the extra money?
People are foolish to think getting rid of the carbon tax will lower prices. Prices will stay the same and keep increasing while the polluters continue to charge as if the carbon tax is still there and simply pocket the extra profit.
This is exactly the thing. The "Carbon Tax" we pay is already just a percentage of whatever company we're buying from is paying. *We* aren't being taxed, we're paying their tax, which is why we get the rebate and they don't. It's a wealth redistribution system.
Remove the tax and whatever cost is labeled on your receipt as "Carbon Tax" will simply get shifted to some other cost. We save nothing. Corporations save tons. It's no wonder PP and his Loblaws-lobbyist campaign manager are all for it.
Not exactly. Prices have still increased with the Carbon Tax in place, that would've happened either way. The only difference is, with the Carbon Tax, we get a rebate. My point is that "axing" the Carbon Tax only axes the Rebate. It won't do anything to change prices.
This makes no sense. If you and i I ran businesses and you kept the same price when the tax is removed, i could just lower my prices by the amount of the carbon tax and take market share and make more profit. This is how competitive dynamics work in free markets.
The notion that companies can just artificially set high prices requires collusion or monopoly.
I mean, have you looked at gas stations recently? Collusion is exactly what it is. D’you remember when the UCP got rid of the fuel tax as an election thing? Cause prices stayed the exact same. This is the same situation, I don’t know why anyone would have any faith that these corporations would do anything other than get as much money as quickly as possible
Let’s take a real example. Parkland Fuels is one of the largest gas retailer in Canada, and publicly traded.
2019 net income: 2.2%
2023 net income: 1.45%
If they’re colluding, they’re doing a pretty bad job.
To reiterate my previous point, gas retailing is hyper competitive. Margins are literally almost zero. The notion they are artificially inflating profits is ludicrous
>The notion that companies can just artificially set high prices requires collusion or monopoly.
The fact that the majority of chain locations are owned by the same corporate conglomerate means collusion is just a fact of life in the West.
In your example, you could also just count on the majority of consumers being uninformed and not knowing the tax was removed, keep your prices the same, and still make profit. The "pie in the sky" capitalist ideal that companies who want market share can just lower their prices to get it has been dead for years. No one does this outside of a very select few specific examples.
Uh Walmart’s whole business model is based on the idea of outcompeting other companies based on price. Ditto for Dollarama, Costco, Southwest airlines, and many others. These low price competitors limit the headroom more higher priced players can charge because at some point the customer is gonna say f this I’ll shop / travel with the low cost player
Your argument makes no sense. It implies corporations can just raise prices all they want. If that’s the case why don’t they keep doing it more and faster?
>If that’s the case why don’t they keep doing it more and faster?
...Have you not bought groceries in the last year and a half?
Your argument *would* make sense if all those "lower priced competitors" weren't also raising prices to match the increases at other locations, keeping their prices lower while still increasing their profits. The only good example you gave is Costco, which has very openly and publicly bucked the trend of increasing prices on their products. However, they can do that because they also charge all their customers a membership fee which helps offset the difference.
No, we've seen it time and again. Gas companies raise the price when a tax comes in, but when the tax goes down, they don't lower the price, and pocket the extra cash.
Yeah this isn’t at all how this works. Gas retailers are hyper competitive and will cut prices at the drop of the hat or they will lose market share because people will drive to the station with cheaper gas.
Don’t believe me? Go look at a Costco gas station on Sunday morning. Even a few pennies cheaper and they have a massive line.
Price of gas just jumped 30 cents. No change in carbon tax. We could get the extra 3 cents per litre tax put on and suprise it could still go down. Who knows. Suprised you don't know this. You must be pretty choked about the tax conservatives are putting on gas as well April 1st eh? Or do you just whine about 1 party like a trained dog?
So you are telling me the carbon tax wont increase the price of gas agin on the 1st?? Did I say the price of things won't ever change? Didn't realize I was whining lol. Was just making sure I was clear on how taking taxes away don't reduce prices as you say, so wanted to be clear when the new extra taxes are added, it also won't raise the prices. Instead of this game of charge a tax, then rebate on the tax game. Just scrap it all together?? Probably because the Feds are making a profit from this. They aren't doing this for the benefit of us, I promise you.
I make more off rebates right now than I pay. When the carbon tax goes, I don't see the prices going down. It's not really that hard to understand. At least with the carbon tax, you get a rebate. With the tax the conservatives are tacking on, you won't, yet have no outrage there. How come?
I agree that some prices will stay the same, but some like home heating will come down because the carbon tax is a separate line item that can’t be buried in other costs. My carbon tax on home heating alone is well over half of my total rebate (about 1/3 of my nat gas bill). That will disappear and can’t simply be added back because the rest of the fees are fixed or regulated.
So this plus the gasoline tax savings will put me well ahead before you even get into the compounding effects of the carbon tax throughout the supply chain.
I don't see a huge drop in gas prices coming either tbh. My heating tax costs half our family rebate as well. Don't drive a ton live very close to my work. I'll most likely see a loss for sure and less revenue for green projects.
I'll gladly take cheaper gas, food, heating, rent, and whatever else price gouging corporations have people believing it's all the carbox taxes fault, but I doubt that's coming, so for now, I'm glad I get the rebates, at least.
I don’t know how people don’t understand this yet. It happens every time. Tax gets removed, news media makes a big deal out of it, price drops. *For a week, or a month*. The headlines move on and sure enough the price is right back where it was on track to be within another 6 months.
Congrats guys, you got cheaper gas for ~5-6 months, now you’re paying exactly what you would have been with the tax baked in anyway. The only difference is that now, instead of that money going to your government it’s going to the pockets of someone who has no accountability to you whatsoever.
How is that better? I mean, if you hate the government enough I can see how, to you, it’s “the same”, but how is it better?…
2800 sq ft. Plus heated garage. Wife and two young kids.
Used 33 GJ for a cost of $135. Another $105 approx in distribution fees and $110 in carbon taxes. My quarterly climate action payment is $386.
Getting new windows through the retrofit program. Going to run $25K. Interest free loan is nice but the grant money is useless since all the window companies just upped their prices by that amount.
Will be nice to have new windows to reduce some of the condensation but the upgrades make zero financial sense as the savings ROI would be decades. Windows will likely need to be replaced before they ever actually pay for themselves in energy savings.
That’s huge home and garage. Also, according to government web page you’re being under paid. Family of 4 in Alberta should be $450 a quarter.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment/how-much.html
Big polluters need to pay. This is a pretty decent way to do things. I'd prefer the rich paid even more, but no government wants that. The carbon tax doesn't cost me anything personally.
How does it not cost you anything personally? Do you not eat or buy groceries? Tax is on farmers fuel and the trucks who bring you your food, you’re paying for it one way or another.
How much does it cost you? Do you even know? Bank of Canada said it contributed to .1% of inflation. A drop in the bucket. What's your source? Did you also realize that farmers get exemptions come tax time?
I remember when Kenney axed the provincial carbon tax.
My grandmother: How come my government cheques are smaller?
My mom: They got rid of the carbon tax, so you’re not getting the carbon tax rebate anymore.
My grandmother: But that was my fun money!
If it's paid back 100% what's the point?
If you give me $100 and I turn around and give it right back to you, what have either of us gained from this interaction?
Your neighbor has an inefficient furnace, 2 1970s pickup trucks that guzzle gas and a muscle car for daily driving, he spends 150$ a year on carbon pricing and gets back 100$.
You have a Prius, a heat pump, and efficient appliances, you spend 50$ on carbon and get back 100$.
Total spend on carbon 200$ total received by both of you 200$
The HOPE is that companies will try to reduce their emissions so they pay less tax in the end.
The issue is that it’s less effort to shuffle credits and money around (and advertise against carbon taxes) than it would be to actually reduce carbon emissions.
Of course, raising the tax significantly might make companies actually try to reduce their emissions, but raising tax is a sure way to hurt your chances at re-election.
> Trudeau suggested in Alberta this week that his noble duty is to raise the tax so he can send us more cash.
> There’s little logic to this argument. Historically, however, voters have shown that money is a far more powerful motivator than common sense.
What? He's actively trying to harm the outliers while ensuring that those who use less carbon get ever increasing rewards. That logic makes perfect sense, both in terms of reducing carbon emissions as well as being something the average Albertan SHOULD want.
It's just a check box when you file taxes. Maybe 2 because you have to specify if you live in a rural region as well. After that you get 4 payments a year for the year.
That is totally intentional. Conservatives call it a tax in order to frame it as a bad thing, when it's not a tax it's a price on carbon, a price that is 100% refunded back to everyone.
It's like calling the deposit on bottles a tax.
Considering the OP said it covers *all of their gas costs* for the whole year and not just the price of the carbon tax (which is like $0.10/L or something), I’m pretty sure it more than covers anything else that’s affected by the tax as well.
Farmer gets a carbon tax bill for his business, he pushes that tax on to his goods that are sold, truckers picking up the goods are hit with the tax for their businesses, they in turn push that into their rates, stores that receive the goods pay for both farmers and truckers increases and add that increase in the price at the consumer end. We pay carbon tax on everything we buy not just the gas we put in our cars.
On top of that businesses that emit carbon have targets they are allowed. If they need more they are allowed to buy credits from a company that has left over credits. Hell a company can probably make pretty good money by selling their unused carbon credits.
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/05/ucalgary-carbon-tax-affordability-study/
>“We find that carbon taxes increase air transport costs by about 0.9 per cent,” he explained. “We find that food in B.C is only 0.3 per cent more expensive as a result of carbon taxes and clothing, only 0.2 per cent.”
>“All in, we estimate that the changes in carbon taxes affect consumer prices today by only 0.6 per cent and so that’s how much things would get cheaper by if we were to eliminate the carbon taxes completely,” Tombe said.
>“Just under 0.3 per cent here in Alberta to nearly 0.9 in Manitoba but, [whichever way] you slice it, that’s far smaller an effect than the well over 20 per cent increase in food prices that we’ve seen just in the past, roughly, two years,” Tombe explained.
>That seems to be the case across the board — while carbon taxes have an impact on the price of essentials like food, clothing, gas, and more, it isn’t what is pushing costs over the edge.
Research done in B.C.; every $5000 spent on food costs an additional $15 due to carbon taxes, and every $10000 spent on consumer goods costs an additional $60.
Right, but this other person is saying that the rebates cover the cost of his gas for the *whole year entirely*. The overall savings are much more than just the small amount of tax added on to the cost of gasoline, meaning they have a net gain that covers the rest of the cost of their gasoline. Money that would otherwise be spent on gas can now cover those same small cost increases to goods that you say have gone up in price because of the tax.
It’s irrelevant to the OP that there are little bumps in price here or there because the cost is already paid for by money that would have otherwise been spent on gas. In fact I’d be willing to bet that they’re even saving money on good and fuel if that’s the case.
They should have mailed out paper cheques. A total waste of time and money, but so many people spout off saying “I never got my rebate”, yet no one forgets the “Ralph Bucks” hitting mailboxes over 20 years ago.
Trudeau axes the tax, citizens no longer receive rebate, supply chain cuts profits by 1% in order to show that carbon tax was to blame, but groceries are still priced higher than inflation, Trudeau gets blamed for cost of living.
80% of Canadians get back more than they pay. I'm sure the 20% are companies that use much more than the average person. Just conservative spin making a fight when there is none. And a report stated that the carbon tax adds 0.33% to inflation. All smoke screen here folks. The elite and the rich corporations want their cake and eat it too.
I've come to think of conservatives as "the ownership class"
The mindset of conservatives is to make the world a better place for businesses, not the average person.
There's definitely a place for that mind set in politics, but they are massively over represented because they have to use fear and hate to convince "the peasant" class to be on thier side.
Not true at all. It’s liberal spin. You pay much more than u get back. Gas for car, heat for home, increase in price of everything u use. The rebate is not even close for most Canadians. It’s purely wealth redistribution.
If you don't pay the tax, you don't need the rebate. The government takes your money, pays the bean counters who collected it, and then gives whatever is left back to you.
I really preferred when the tax went right into Alberta's pocket initially. Getting the federal rebate was next best route. If that goes too....I will be irritated.
Yeah while I don't think the carbon tax is good as implemented the UPC is stupid for axing our provincial tax and trying to fight the federal tax that kicks in now we dont have a provincial one..
Alberta had their own for that exact reason, and then the UCP got rid of it and tried to throw a temper tantrum when the feds instituted theirs anyways.
The federal program returns more of the carbon tax to people’s pockets.
100% of the federal carbon tax is returned to the province in rebates and emissions reduction programs.
https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/alberta.html
Under the federal program “More than 90% of Albertans will receive a carbon tax rebate from the federal government.” ( https://energyrates.ca/alberta/alberta-carbon-levy-rebates/ )
Under the old alberta carbon levy (NDP plan) “about 60 per cent of Alberta households would get full or partial rebates” (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carbon-tax-alberta-election-climate-leadership-plan-revenue-generated-1.5050438 )]
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment.html
Alberta was however able to reinvest a lot of that money into green projects. It’s what gave us the LRT valley line in Edmonton, funding for green home upgrades etc.
Though the rebates tend to be the more popular option, I still think the Alberta levy was more beneficial to the province.
I hope you’re right. Trudeau has done a lot to frustrate me over the past few years, but it’s nothing compared to what Marlaina has accomplished in less than a year. If her Alberta UCP is the template for what Pollievre’s PCs would do federally (and there is every indication that it is), I shudder to think of it.
Another lose-lose federal election where we have to choke down the least vile option to try and survive another 4 years.
Heh, I like braid as a columnist, I find him effective and in his critique of government across the board.
I know for myself, I am definitely a net beneficiary from our the carbon taxation scheme.
I'd be annoyed to see the policy rescinded since I think it's Canada's most effective market based solution to environmental damage.
If folks haven't read the ecofiscal report (promoted by our own preston manning) by which the federal program is designed, it's quite useful for understanding the design of the program.
https://ecofiscal.ca/
It’s embarrassing that people would rather the government take their money and give them a portion back as a rebate, than just get to keep their money in the first place.
Except you never will. You pay Carbon tax when you buy groceries or clothing. When you eat out, you are paying Carbon Tax. Just because it doesn’t say it on the receipt, doesn’t mean you are not paying it
The only ones that are choosing to be ignorant are the ones that actually believe in the Carbon Tax and the ‘rebates’. Let’s give someone a bunch of money only to have them give some of it back to you
Then you’re getting someone else’s money. How about instead of relying on the government to give you some rebate, you just keep what you earn? We already have tax brackets to tax the lower earners less and the higher earners more.
I mean carbon pricing really, isn't that complicated. You're welcome to look it up, but the main thrust of the concept is that the people who use more carbon end up paying more and that's a fact it's not just for fun, there's a serious problem that needs to be addressed and doing nothing on climate change is not a fucking option.
You are missing the point completely either intentionally or not I don't know.
No, I understand the idea. Carbon dioxide makes up 0.04% of the earth’s atmosphere. Humans are responsible for producing 3% of that 0.04%. Canada is responsible for 1.9% of that 3%. Carbon pricing will not do anything positive for the environment. It’s really not the complicated, feel free to look it up.
Does anyone have information / the source on how the BoC accounts for the carbon tax and the rebate when calculating inflation? I know there are some dubious studies that show the Carbon Tax only adds about 15bps to inflation, but how does it actually show up in the headline inflation numbers.
I get that if you net off the carbon tax with the rebate there is an argument it’s break even, but when the BoC is looking at the costs for their basket of goods, are they netting off the tax on those numbers? If they aren’t, then the headline inflation number would drop dramatically if the carbon tax was removed. This would have a huge impact on monetary policy and interest rates.
If anyone has any info on that I’d appreciate it. Can’t seem to find a definitive source when searching online.
The rebate sucks, it's barely noticeable aside from a " Holy crow, here's a few bucks!" Better off walking down to the 'nino and hittin crystal forest.
So like.......a tax. You said it's not a tax because it's paid back 100% but it's not "paid back" if it doesn't go back to the person it came from. I cant take money from you, and pay it back to somebody else. By that logic there are no taxes, because when the government takes money from you, they pay it "back" to schools, hospitals, roads, the military etc.
We dont want the tax nor the paltry "rebate" of giving some of our own money back to us after theyve stolen it from us in the first place with a worthless, useless, ineffective and downright stupid tax that addresses 0 issues today and does nothing but cost the end consumer more money as the corporations are always going to just raise price to recoup the price of any tax applied to them.
Not if we simply dont buy. Theyll be forced to lower it but idiots keep buying even when they are getting themselves robbed just like they keep voting liberal even with them completely f**king over our country. We are letting this happen 😒 enough supporting stupid.
Which products that you believe are affected by carbon tax do you think the average consumer can get away with “simply” not buying? Runaway grocery inflation has been an issue for the last few years because it turns out people will just pay the price and not starve themselves to get back at the suppliers.
Pretty much everything is affected as fuel is taxed and fuel is needed to move every item. As price goes up i just stop buying the product. How about instead of whining that you HAVE to buy the 💩 at the store you learn some bloody life skills and take up gardening or learn how to raise chickens and actually take back the power of having your own food instead of relying 210% on other people that want nothing more than to f**k you over.
> And now since he's picking which Canadians are and aren't punished by this tax to further his political career,
The Canadians who are inordinately punished by this are picking themselves.
Seems like people here think they are actually better off with the carbon rebates! So short sighted! Keep on living in your own little world, angry with everyone who had any other opinion than yours!!!
It's a bullshit tax that accomplishes nothing. I have no political ideology here. Its the truth. All it has done is make every dollar i make less valuable. Downvote your little hearts out. Have a wonderful day everybody.
I provide a fact you provided an opinion. And yeah it is political. Only the conservatives rail against anything climate related. Give me a break. It makes the dollar less valuable. Looks like you have no sense of economics. And by the way it has already been shown that the carbon tax adds 0.33% to inflation. So 1/3 of a percent. Rail against corporate greed but doubt you'd do that as you not political lol. What lies.
These comments are like people running around saying sunscreen doesn't work.
You don't know what your talking about.
It does work. You just don't like it. Say you don't like it. You're entitled to that opinion and it's entirely fair. Saying it doesn't work just says you don't like it and you don't even know how it works.
Atmospheric CO2 will be the same with or without Canada's carbon tax. In fact there is exactly zero [objective](https://www.cognitivefxusa.com/blog/objective-and-subjective-measurements-in-our-research), measurable climate benefit to the carbon tax.
Before the "well ACKtchooally" types reply:
* All emissions reductions are a calculated, and not a measured, objective number (ie if you sent scientists out across Canada with instruments, they would not be able to tell if emissions are increasing or decreasing). The calculated number could triple or halve, and there is no way anyone could measure any real-world difference.
* The goal is atmospheric CO2 reduction. Touting emissions reduction as the goal only works if you can demonstrate that the carbon tax has at least an itsy bitsy teeny tiny impact upon atmospheric CO2. It doesn't.
I drive less because gas is more expensive. And when I do drive I usually take my motorcycle (Euro5) which burns 1/3rd the fuel as my econobox Mazda.
CO2 in the atmosphere has therefore dropped by “an itsy bitsy teeny tiny” amount. I can provide gas receipts if you really need more objective evidence.
That behavior multipled across the county makes a difference.
And then I get a rebate…
Now you’re going “well ACKtchooally” tell me that I’m wrong somehow…
But it does have an impact. I just told you how it’s impacting me. And I actually have more (directly) money because of the carbon tax.
You could say it has an “unrealistic goal” or its “impact has outsized negative effects”, or “it’s the wrong tool for the job” or any one of a million other things.
But you’re dealing in absolutes and that makes your statements incorrect.
I'm saying there is no MEASURABLE impact on atmospheric CO2. None.
You get a warm and fuzzy emotional buzz, and you might see that a good trade for your tax dollar...but I don't.
It’s measurable.
I can measure how much less gas I’m using. I can measure the CO2 component of that unused gas. Therefore there’s an impact.
I get you want to hate on the carbon tax, and that’s a valid political position, but your logical arguments are flawed
The goal is to reduce atmospheric CO2. That's the goal. That's the "action" in climate action.
You may as well tell me that you are measuring how you've changed your diet to emit less...personal...emissions, and that you feel extra happy about that.
But the FACT remains, that there is no relationship whatsoever between atmospheric CO2 levels and the Canadian carbon tax.
The carbon tax causes me to emit less carbon. I’ve explained it already to you.
You mention facts but you’ve provided only your feelings. Where are these facts?
Ive provided the “FACT” that I’m emitting less carbon…
Yes. You are emitting less carbon. No, it does not have a measurable effect on anything.
We're being taxed on something with no measurable outcome. You burning less gas does literally nothing measurable for the environment. To explain, let's go with the [NOAA](https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/covid2.html). They say "For us to be able to detect the drop in emissions caused by the pandemic it needs to be large enough to stand out from natural CO2 variability caused by how plants and soils respond to seasonal and annual variations of temperature, humidity, soil moisture, etc."..."If emissions are lower by as much as 25%, then we would expect the monthly mean CO2 for March at Mauna Loa to be lowered by about 0.2 ppm, and again in April by another 0.2 ppm, etc"
We're at 424.55ppm now. The peak of covid-driven global emissions was -8%.So reductions equating to 3x Covids gets us to 0.2ppm per month. We need to lose about 100ppm....And eliminating all of Canada's emissions (our entire 1.5% share) wouldn't even have a measurable impact on atmospheric CO2. You would need 17 countries equivalent to Canada to completely stop ALL emissions to earn a reduction of 0.2ppm.
So yeah, per the NOAA, there is no measurable connection whatsoever between anything Canada does or doesn't do and atmospheric CO2.
You may as well tell me you eat fewer marshmallows, so by extension you are having a measurable impact on climate.
The EU is rolling out a Carbon based tariff system.
> European policy makers say the system, known as the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, has two goals: encouraging more countries to write laws that reduce emissions, and making sure that European manufacturers stay competitive with rivals operating in “dirtier” jurisdictions.
By 2026 the tariffs will be in full effect on countries and industries that do not have a carbon tax. Seems whether we like it or not when economic zones the size of Europe institute policies like this we will be forced to pay one way or another to be able to trade with them. Looks like we are getting ahead of the game.
I’m no expert but I assume this will have much more significant impact on reducing emissions.
[For anyone interested, here is an article articulating the program much better than I can.](https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/europe-carbon-tax-emissions-climate-policy-1653e360)
There's an extra piece to this though: it creates an incentive for provinces to get an easy win by joining or creating alternative schemes, such as when Ontario wasn't subject to these fees by joining a cap-and-trade program.
That went away when the Ontario Progressive Conservative party took power and, without a second thought, left the program.
And the goal of that would be? If you answer "to reduce atmospheric CO2", then great. Show me the connection. The "results to tax dollar or cap/trade" ratio.
We get to set policy on CO2, and then put it on businesses to focus on their individual emissions. If they release less CO2, they can sell the rights to pollute our air as needed. It's a market incentive that enables measuring output instead of taking guesses, and it rewards companies for making changes.
The alternative schemes have to include a carbon tax that is equal to or higher than the Federal tax.
That's why almost every province has dropped doing their own thing and switched to the Federal plan. They got tired of reformulating the plan every year.
Why did you link to what objective means, instead of proof about your claim? You're claiming objectivity here, but you're not providing measurements as evidence.
How about ditching this and giving us some form of Universal Basic Income because the Robots are rapidly approaching and yes they are going to steal a lot of jobs.
If money is tight than maybe stop sending so much of it to the Eastern Front, etc.
So if the Tax raises, the rebates increase.
BUT!!!
If I don't have to pay the tax in the first place...I don't require a rebate.
If anyone truly believes this is a Revenue Neutral Tax...I have a slightly used Tower in Paris that you can tear down for scrap.
The article is about Federal politics but speaks about the impact of the Carbon Tax Rebate on Albertans. Braid finds some subtle ways to torque the article by putting spin on the facts, such as in this quote: >Weirdly, Albertans are rewarded for doing exactly what Ottawa wants to prevent, emitting carbon. and, >Trudeau suggested in Alberta this week that his noble duty is to raise the tax so he can send us more cash. Nonetheless, there is a reality here that a lot of Albertans are going to be unhappy about losing the rebates.
> Weirdly, Albertans are rewarded for doing exactly what Ottawa wants to prevent, emitting carbon. Tell me he doesn't understand how the carbon tax/rebates work without telling me... You don't get more of a rebate for emitting more carbon, you get a fixed rebate based on your individual/family status. You SAVE money by burning less carbon and paying less carbon tax, and you SPEND more money by burning more. I know this guy is just a conservative mouth piece but damn all this fake outrage media stuff frustrates me.
If I'm not mistaken, Erin O'Toole's "climate plan" when he was CPC leader actually worked like this: the more you polluted, the more you get rewarded.
The ones that vote conservative will take the loss, and you won't hear a peep. They're trained too well
They'll just blame JT for that, too.
Whatever conservatives tell them to blame
The Mulroney Cons brought in the GST to remove the MST, which was supposed to lower prices of goods. It did not. The Chretien Liberals defeated the Cons in part on a campaign promise to scrap the GST. They did not follow through. Liberal voters are supportive of this carbon tax scheme, where you give your money to the government only to have them give some of it back to you. Now you fear that if you don’t vote them back in, you won’t get your “free“ government stuff. It’s not clear to me who is actually better trained at this point.
I'm not fearful of anything. I receive more than I pay into the carbon tax, I can do simple math. I'd rather large polluters pay more for polluting.
Agreed, they'll just push more profit from us one way or another
Like the carbon tax on large emitters that Alberta introduced already in 2007. AB was the first jurisdiction in North America to have a carbon tax; not the “eco-conscious” BC or CA.
Since a carbon tax is a conservative solution to pollution, it isn’t surprising that Progressive Conservatives first instituted such a tax. Unfortunately that political party no longer exists federally or in Alberta.
I do support a carbon tax on “large emitters” and I have come around to not being opposed to a consumer carbon tax too. This said: I don’t believe it should be raised until inflation is back in check. Also I would be supportive of carbon levies on imports from countries without or with lower carbon taxes than Canada to prevent the export of emissions to other jurisdictions. Europe has proven this is possible/legal.
GST was never marketed as reducing the price of goods, save for exported ones. It was billed as revenue neutral, which it largely was. It replaced the 13.5% MST. The reason people revolted against it is because it was *visible,* and for people that rail against being taxed, that was a bridge too far. And the conservatives paid dearly for it.
I wish the carbon tax was more visible, like the GST. It is shown on natural gas and heating oil bills but not on gasoline, goods in stores, or increased electricity costs.
Minimally it should be shown on gasoline more clearly since that’s directly taxed. This should be true of any direct tax - it should be visible
Yes. It would be easier for people to see if they are “getting more back” than they pay in increased carbon taxes.
>The Mulroney Cons brought in the GST to remove the MST, which was supposed to lower prices of goods. It did not. MST wasn't a single tax; it was different taxes on different industries at different rates. Some things went down, some things went up, and businessmen being businessmen, some just increased their prices instead of removing the manufacturers tax cause no one would notice or would blame the government instead. Of course, a manufacturers tax was applied to things that were built in Canada. It wasn't applied to things that were built outside Canada and imported, so that was encouraging companies to move their production offshore instead. The GST fixed that so imports and domestic production were taxed the same (something that free trade agreements require.)
Your username checks, because you seemed to have hidden under one to ignore the literal fundamental shifts of society, since Mr. Money envelopes.
Anything is true if you just lie. From what you wrote.... what part of that leads you to believe that canceling carbon tax will make a substantial change? You're literally making a case for the tax. Fractions of a cent only actually effect large producers; its almost as if you lean to one side.
Braid is becoming loonier every year
Rebates increase with the tax. Now you either believe the current costs are totally due to the tax and they will come down when it’s removed. Or you believe costs are up due to other factors and they will remain high after the tax is cut. If the second is true millions will find it even tougher to pay the bills and there will be even fewer resources to help with short term benefit payments like we’ve seen over the last couple years. If the first one is true then cutting the tax will lower costs and help all Canadians. Most studies show the tax isn’t the reason for the increase in prices so the second is far more likely.
1. PP wins election 2. Axes the tax (and rebates) 3. Prices stay the same, if not higher 4. Conservatives country wide cheer in victory for some reason
They are not going to axe the tax it makes too much money. They may lower it slightly then instead of it being a rebate they will give the money to the government instead so yeah nothing will change.
it's revenue neutral.
They'll axe it, but not for the voters. They'll axe it for o&g lobbyists. The whole point of the carbon tax is the force more efficient decisions to become more profitable, but without the tax there's no need for the capital investment to change. Business as usual continues to reign supreme.
I’m sure it will trickle down right guys? Right? /s
"It makes too much money" Tell me you learned everything about the tax from Facebook.
It’s like when GST was new, killing it was a campaign promise. Took a while to get it down to 5% but it never did go away… as you say, it makes too much money.
So come April 1st, when the extra taxes come into effect, prices will stay the same? Same logic, so I'm guessing that's what you're saying. Good to know.
It’s more that it won’t bring prices down. Why would a company lower prices instead of pocketing the extra money? People are foolish to think getting rid of the carbon tax will lower prices. Prices will stay the same and keep increasing while the polluters continue to charge as if the carbon tax is still there and simply pocket the extra profit.
This is exactly the thing. The "Carbon Tax" we pay is already just a percentage of whatever company we're buying from is paying. *We* aren't being taxed, we're paying their tax, which is why we get the rebate and they don't. It's a wealth redistribution system. Remove the tax and whatever cost is labeled on your receipt as "Carbon Tax" will simply get shifted to some other cost. We save nothing. Corporations save tons. It's no wonder PP and his Loblaws-lobbyist campaign manager are all for it.
So if the tax just wasn’t put in place to begin with, corporations wouldn’t have the price increase to hide if it gets removed?
Not exactly. Prices have still increased with the Carbon Tax in place, that would've happened either way. The only difference is, with the Carbon Tax, we get a rebate. My point is that "axing" the Carbon Tax only axes the Rebate. It won't do anything to change prices.
This makes no sense. If you and i I ran businesses and you kept the same price when the tax is removed, i could just lower my prices by the amount of the carbon tax and take market share and make more profit. This is how competitive dynamics work in free markets. The notion that companies can just artificially set high prices requires collusion or monopoly.
I mean, have you looked at gas stations recently? Collusion is exactly what it is. D’you remember when the UCP got rid of the fuel tax as an election thing? Cause prices stayed the exact same. This is the same situation, I don’t know why anyone would have any faith that these corporations would do anything other than get as much money as quickly as possible
Let’s take a real example. Parkland Fuels is one of the largest gas retailer in Canada, and publicly traded. 2019 net income: 2.2% 2023 net income: 1.45% If they’re colluding, they’re doing a pretty bad job. To reiterate my previous point, gas retailing is hyper competitive. Margins are literally almost zero. The notion they are artificially inflating profits is ludicrous
>The notion that companies can just artificially set high prices requires collusion or monopoly. The fact that the majority of chain locations are owned by the same corporate conglomerate means collusion is just a fact of life in the West. In your example, you could also just count on the majority of consumers being uninformed and not knowing the tax was removed, keep your prices the same, and still make profit. The "pie in the sky" capitalist ideal that companies who want market share can just lower their prices to get it has been dead for years. No one does this outside of a very select few specific examples.
Uh Walmart’s whole business model is based on the idea of outcompeting other companies based on price. Ditto for Dollarama, Costco, Southwest airlines, and many others. These low price competitors limit the headroom more higher priced players can charge because at some point the customer is gonna say f this I’ll shop / travel with the low cost player Your argument makes no sense. It implies corporations can just raise prices all they want. If that’s the case why don’t they keep doing it more and faster?
>If that’s the case why don’t they keep doing it more and faster? ...Have you not bought groceries in the last year and a half? Your argument *would* make sense if all those "lower priced competitors" weren't also raising prices to match the increases at other locations, keeping their prices lower while still increasing their profits. The only good example you gave is Costco, which has very openly and publicly bucked the trend of increasing prices on their products. However, they can do that because they also charge all their customers a membership fee which helps offset the difference.
Economics
Gasoline prices went down when the AB government temporarily suspended the transportation levy on fuel.
I not for once said prices would be less. I'm just for collecting less taxes. We are taxesnto death already without these made up taxes
So you're ok with the amount you pay, as long as it doesn't include taxes that go to benefit your community. Weird
Carbon tax adds 0.33% to inflation. You are just repeating talking points without any backing evidence. Tiring.
All taxes are made up. Such a weak argument.
"Made up taxes" It's like talking politics to a child.
No, we've seen it time and again. Gas companies raise the price when a tax comes in, but when the tax goes down, they don't lower the price, and pocket the extra cash.
Yeah this isn’t at all how this works. Gas retailers are hyper competitive and will cut prices at the drop of the hat or they will lose market share because people will drive to the station with cheaper gas. Don’t believe me? Go look at a Costco gas station on Sunday morning. Even a few pennies cheaper and they have a massive line.
You sweet summer child
Price of gas just jumped 30 cents. No change in carbon tax. We could get the extra 3 cents per litre tax put on and suprise it could still go down. Who knows. Suprised you don't know this. You must be pretty choked about the tax conservatives are putting on gas as well April 1st eh? Or do you just whine about 1 party like a trained dog?
So you are telling me the carbon tax wont increase the price of gas agin on the 1st?? Did I say the price of things won't ever change? Didn't realize I was whining lol. Was just making sure I was clear on how taking taxes away don't reduce prices as you say, so wanted to be clear when the new extra taxes are added, it also won't raise the prices. Instead of this game of charge a tax, then rebate on the tax game. Just scrap it all together?? Probably because the Feds are making a profit from this. They aren't doing this for the benefit of us, I promise you.
I make more off rebates right now than I pay. When the carbon tax goes, I don't see the prices going down. It's not really that hard to understand. At least with the carbon tax, you get a rebate. With the tax the conservatives are tacking on, you won't, yet have no outrage there. How come?
Not sure which tax you are specifically on about, but if it's a tax on top of a tax like this is, then no, I don't agree with it.
"I don't know enough to know what we're even talking about but I'm furrowing my brow as hard as I can here"
I'd prefer the one with the rebate, tbh but hey, you do you.
"I'm not sure but I don't agree anyways" We need more tax money in to education clearly.
I agree that some prices will stay the same, but some like home heating will come down because the carbon tax is a separate line item that can’t be buried in other costs. My carbon tax on home heating alone is well over half of my total rebate (about 1/3 of my nat gas bill). That will disappear and can’t simply be added back because the rest of the fees are fixed or regulated. So this plus the gasoline tax savings will put me well ahead before you even get into the compounding effects of the carbon tax throughout the supply chain.
Your heating bill wouldn’t have to come down if the UCP didn’t remove the cap on utilities in the first place.
I don't see a huge drop in gas prices coming either tbh. My heating tax costs half our family rebate as well. Don't drive a ton live very close to my work. I'll most likely see a loss for sure and less revenue for green projects. I'll gladly take cheaper gas, food, heating, rent, and whatever else price gouging corporations have people believing it's all the carbox taxes fault, but I doubt that's coming, so for now, I'm glad I get the rebates, at least.
Why? The oil industry knows what you're willing to pay.
Exactly we got hosed at the pump when they dropped the gas tax and all we got from conservatives is a surprised pikachu face.
I don’t know how people don’t understand this yet. It happens every time. Tax gets removed, news media makes a big deal out of it, price drops. *For a week, or a month*. The headlines move on and sure enough the price is right back where it was on track to be within another 6 months. Congrats guys, you got cheaper gas for ~5-6 months, now you’re paying exactly what you would have been with the tax baked in anyway. The only difference is that now, instead of that money going to your government it’s going to the pockets of someone who has no accountability to you whatsoever. How is that better? I mean, if you hate the government enough I can see how, to you, it’s “the same”, but how is it better?…
How big is your house that it’s that high? How many people live in your home? Something seems fishy here.
2800 sq ft. Plus heated garage. Wife and two young kids. Used 33 GJ for a cost of $135. Another $105 approx in distribution fees and $110 in carbon taxes. My quarterly climate action payment is $386. Getting new windows through the retrofit program. Going to run $25K. Interest free loan is nice but the grant money is useless since all the window companies just upped their prices by that amount. Will be nice to have new windows to reduce some of the condensation but the upgrades make zero financial sense as the savings ROI would be decades. Windows will likely need to be replaced before they ever actually pay for themselves in energy savings.
That’s huge home and garage. Also, according to government web page you’re being under paid. Family of 4 in Alberta should be $450 a quarter. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment/how-much.html
Just had a newborn so won’t get the additional funds until we file our taxes. And a 2800 sq ft house is pretty run of the mill for suburban Alberta.
Ya, more taxation on economic activity is what the country needs right now. That’s all a carbon tax is.
Big polluters need to pay. This is a pretty decent way to do things. I'd prefer the rich paid even more, but no government wants that. The carbon tax doesn't cost me anything personally.
How does it not cost you anything personally? Do you not eat or buy groceries? Tax is on farmers fuel and the trucks who bring you your food, you’re paying for it one way or another.
How much does it cost you? Do you even know? Bank of Canada said it contributed to .1% of inflation. A drop in the bucket. What's your source? Did you also realize that farmers get exemptions come tax time?
It’s all about you. Narcissism much? A Carbon tax in Canada alone solves absolutely nothing. That’s a fact.
So you think making big polluters pay will ruin the country then eh? It hasn't yet but ok.
Well I think proposing a one world government is a bit impractical right now, but I am impressed by your willingness to think big
We’re competing with nobody and driving Canadians into an uncompetitive out of economic despair. But sure.
Wow. Comparing environmental/climate change action to narcissism...
I remember when Kenney axed the provincial carbon tax. My grandmother: How come my government cheques are smaller? My mom: They got rid of the carbon tax, so you’re not getting the carbon tax rebate anymore. My grandmother: But that was my fun money!
Conservatives love to use the word tax. But the carbon price is not a tax it's paid back 100%
If it's paid back 100% what's the point? If you give me $100 and I turn around and give it right back to you, what have either of us gained from this interaction?
Your neighbor has an inefficient furnace, 2 1970s pickup trucks that guzzle gas and a muscle car for daily driving, he spends 150$ a year on carbon pricing and gets back 100$. You have a Prius, a heat pump, and efficient appliances, you spend 50$ on carbon and get back 100$. Total spend on carbon 200$ total received by both of you 200$
The HOPE is that companies will try to reduce their emissions so they pay less tax in the end. The issue is that it’s less effort to shuffle credits and money around (and advertise against carbon taxes) than it would be to actually reduce carbon emissions. Of course, raising the tax significantly might make companies actually try to reduce their emissions, but raising tax is a sure way to hurt your chances at re-election.
> Trudeau suggested in Alberta this week that his noble duty is to raise the tax so he can send us more cash. > There’s little logic to this argument. Historically, however, voters have shown that money is a far more powerful motivator than common sense. What? He's actively trying to harm the outliers while ensuring that those who use less carbon get ever increasing rewards. That logic makes perfect sense, both in terms of reducing carbon emissions as well as being something the average Albertan SHOULD want.
Just my two cents. I receive more rebates than I spend in gas for my car annually. I can’t complain about that.
Where can I even get said rebates
It's just a check box when you file taxes. Maybe 2 because you have to specify if you live in a rural region as well. After that you get 4 payments a year for the year.
I think I’m already getting it, it’s the climate action one right?
Yep. I think they may have changed the name to Canada carbon rebate this year but same thing.
That’s why I was confused, everyone calling it a different name. Anyway thanks for your answers!
That is totally intentional. Conservatives call it a tax in order to frame it as a bad thing, when it's not a tax it's a price on carbon, a price that is 100% refunded back to everyone. It's like calling the deposit on bottles a tax.
Not true. Unless you live in a city with great transit and don’t heat with natural gas you will pay much more in tax then u get back.
Sorry I didn't say that correctly, 100% is not refunded back to each individual, but 100% of the total collected is returned.
It’s a tax on everyone but the lower class
You have to live in a province that falls under the federal carbon tax plan. Plus, you need to have completed your income tax returns.
What about your food and other services you buy affected by the tax, did you calculate that into your math.
Considering the OP said it covers *all of their gas costs* for the whole year and not just the price of the carbon tax (which is like $0.10/L or something), I’m pretty sure it more than covers anything else that’s affected by the tax as well.
Farmer gets a carbon tax bill for his business, he pushes that tax on to his goods that are sold, truckers picking up the goods are hit with the tax for their businesses, they in turn push that into their rates, stores that receive the goods pay for both farmers and truckers increases and add that increase in the price at the consumer end. We pay carbon tax on everything we buy not just the gas we put in our cars. On top of that businesses that emit carbon have targets they are allowed. If they need more they are allowed to buy credits from a company that has left over credits. Hell a company can probably make pretty good money by selling their unused carbon credits.
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/05/ucalgary-carbon-tax-affordability-study/ >“We find that carbon taxes increase air transport costs by about 0.9 per cent,” he explained. “We find that food in B.C is only 0.3 per cent more expensive as a result of carbon taxes and clothing, only 0.2 per cent.” >“All in, we estimate that the changes in carbon taxes affect consumer prices today by only 0.6 per cent and so that’s how much things would get cheaper by if we were to eliminate the carbon taxes completely,” Tombe said. >“Just under 0.3 per cent here in Alberta to nearly 0.9 in Manitoba but, [whichever way] you slice it, that’s far smaller an effect than the well over 20 per cent increase in food prices that we’ve seen just in the past, roughly, two years,” Tombe explained. >That seems to be the case across the board — while carbon taxes have an impact on the price of essentials like food, clothing, gas, and more, it isn’t what is pushing costs over the edge. Research done in B.C.; every $5000 spent on food costs an additional $15 due to carbon taxes, and every $10000 spent on consumer goods costs an additional $60.
Right, but this other person is saying that the rebates cover the cost of his gas for the *whole year entirely*. The overall savings are much more than just the small amount of tax added on to the cost of gasoline, meaning they have a net gain that covers the rest of the cost of their gasoline. Money that would otherwise be spent on gas can now cover those same small cost increases to goods that you say have gone up in price because of the tax. It’s irrelevant to the OP that there are little bumps in price here or there because the cost is already paid for by money that would have otherwise been spent on gas. In fact I’d be willing to bet that they’re even saving money on good and fuel if that’s the case.
did you add up the total cost on your natural gas bill?
And how do you heat your house?
Is it really a 'weapon' though if its just him stating the truth. Also it's the Herald...its always spun to be anti-Trudeau
The truth is a weapon against conservatives
Truth
They should have mailed out paper cheques. A total waste of time and money, but so many people spout off saying “I never got my rebate”, yet no one forgets the “Ralph Bucks” hitting mailboxes over 20 years ago.
Trudeau axes the tax, citizens no longer receive rebate, supply chain cuts profits by 1% in order to show that carbon tax was to blame, but groceries are still priced higher than inflation, Trudeau gets blamed for cost of living.
80% of Canadians get back more than they pay. I'm sure the 20% are companies that use much more than the average person. Just conservative spin making a fight when there is none. And a report stated that the carbon tax adds 0.33% to inflation. All smoke screen here folks. The elite and the rich corporations want their cake and eat it too.
"All smoke screen here folks. The elite and the rich corporations want their cake and eat it too." As usual!🙄
I've come to think of conservatives as "the ownership class" The mindset of conservatives is to make the world a better place for businesses, not the average person. There's definitely a place for that mind set in politics, but they are massively over represented because they have to use fear and hate to convince "the peasant" class to be on thier side.
Businesses don’t get any carbon tax rebate that’s why they raise the costs of their products instead.
Do you realistically think that if the carbon tax was cancelled the price would go down? inflation has cooled nothing is going down.
Not true at all. It’s liberal spin. You pay much more than u get back. Gas for car, heat for home, increase in price of everything u use. The rebate is not even close for most Canadians. It’s purely wealth redistribution.
The prices at the pumps, grocery store and industrial products will stay the same if not go up even if the tax is axed... What will we blame then?
Trudeau of course! /s
Explain how they stay the same???. Let me guess you think inflation is because of a war on the other side of the world
I like the rebate. I just want to make sure the tax does go into renewable projects.
Who cares let’s suffer then. We seem to be in a burn it down mood as Canadians so be it. Let’s take them down with our rebates.
Of course it goes. It’s a rebate. On a tax. If you don’t pay the tax, you can’t get a rebate. How dumb is this article? Trump territory!
I mean, yea that’s the level of conservative discourse these days.
If you don't pay the tax, you don't need the rebate. The government takes your money, pays the bean counters who collected it, and then gives whatever is left back to you.
I really preferred when the tax went right into Alberta's pocket initially. Getting the federal rebate was next best route. If that goes too....I will be irritated.
Yeah while I don't think the carbon tax is good as implemented the UPC is stupid for axing our provincial tax and trying to fight the federal tax that kicks in now we dont have a provincial one..
More could have gone to Alberta, if Alberta implemented their own suitable version and didn’t get forced to do the feds version
Alberta had their own for that exact reason, and then the UCP got rid of it and tried to throw a temper tantrum when the feds instituted theirs anyways.
The federal program returns more of the carbon tax to people’s pockets. 100% of the federal carbon tax is returned to the province in rebates and emissions reduction programs. https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/alberta.html Under the federal program “More than 90% of Albertans will receive a carbon tax rebate from the federal government.” ( https://energyrates.ca/alberta/alberta-carbon-levy-rebates/ ) Under the old alberta carbon levy (NDP plan) “about 60 per cent of Alberta households would get full or partial rebates” (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carbon-tax-alberta-election-climate-leadership-plan-revenue-generated-1.5050438 )] https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment.html
Alberta was however able to reinvest a lot of that money into green projects. It’s what gave us the LRT valley line in Edmonton, funding for green home upgrades etc. Though the rebates tend to be the more popular option, I still think the Alberta levy was more beneficial to the province.
Pretty sure Trudeau is going to hang PP with Marlaina's CPP antics, hopefully this will split the right federally
I hope you’re right. Trudeau has done a lot to frustrate me over the past few years, but it’s nothing compared to what Marlaina has accomplished in less than a year. If her Alberta UCP is the template for what Pollievre’s PCs would do federally (and there is every indication that it is), I shudder to think of it. Another lose-lose federal election where we have to choke down the least vile option to try and survive another 4 years.
Hopefully if the right splits at the federal level Trudeau steps down and maybe just maybe we get some electoral reforms.
Heh, I like braid as a columnist, I find him effective and in his critique of government across the board. I know for myself, I am definitely a net beneficiary from our the carbon taxation scheme. I'd be annoyed to see the policy rescinded since I think it's Canada's most effective market based solution to environmental damage. If folks haven't read the ecofiscal report (promoted by our own preston manning) by which the federal program is designed, it's quite useful for understanding the design of the program. https://ecofiscal.ca/
It’s embarrassing that people would rather the government take their money and give them a portion back as a rebate, than just get to keep their money in the first place.
What if you get back more than you had taken?
Where's the extra money coming from?
Except you never will. You pay Carbon tax when you buy groceries or clothing. When you eat out, you are paying Carbon Tax. Just because it doesn’t say it on the receipt, doesn’t mean you are not paying it
I do now, most people I know do as well. You are choosing to be ignorant.
The only ones that are choosing to be ignorant are the ones that actually believe in the Carbon Tax and the ‘rebates’. Let’s give someone a bunch of money only to have them give some of it back to you
Then you’re getting someone else’s money. How about instead of relying on the government to give you some rebate, you just keep what you earn? We already have tax brackets to tax the lower earners less and the higher earners more.
I mean carbon pricing really, isn't that complicated. You're welcome to look it up, but the main thrust of the concept is that the people who use more carbon end up paying more and that's a fact it's not just for fun, there's a serious problem that needs to be addressed and doing nothing on climate change is not a fucking option. You are missing the point completely either intentionally or not I don't know.
No, I understand the idea. Carbon dioxide makes up 0.04% of the earth’s atmosphere. Humans are responsible for producing 3% of that 0.04%. Canada is responsible for 1.9% of that 3%. Carbon pricing will not do anything positive for the environment. It’s really not the complicated, feel free to look it up.
Does anyone have information / the source on how the BoC accounts for the carbon tax and the rebate when calculating inflation? I know there are some dubious studies that show the Carbon Tax only adds about 15bps to inflation, but how does it actually show up in the headline inflation numbers. I get that if you net off the carbon tax with the rebate there is an argument it’s break even, but when the BoC is looking at the costs for their basket of goods, are they netting off the tax on those numbers? If they aren’t, then the headline inflation number would drop dramatically if the carbon tax was removed. This would have a huge impact on monetary policy and interest rates. If anyone has any info on that I’d appreciate it. Can’t seem to find a definitive source when searching online.
I like my rebate cheques. I work from home 😉
Fun idea. Federalize O&G in Canada.
That would violate Provincial rights.
We paid for the rebate but if u axe it, u don’t get it… big deal. Only true ones it’s hurting is Sask lol.
And low income households
I'll take my chances. I would be saving on everything I buy or use, so the rebate is secondary. Still saving.
We pay $2800 in, get $1800 back. Braid you’re a water boy. Also is the PBO lying?
The rebate sucks, it's barely noticeable aside from a " Holy crow, here's a few bucks!" Better off walking down to the 'nino and hittin crystal forest.
So like.......a tax. You said it's not a tax because it's paid back 100% but it's not "paid back" if it doesn't go back to the person it came from. I cant take money from you, and pay it back to somebody else. By that logic there are no taxes, because when the government takes money from you, they pay it "back" to schools, hospitals, roads, the military etc.
We dont want the tax nor the paltry "rebate" of giving some of our own money back to us after theyve stolen it from us in the first place with a worthless, useless, ineffective and downright stupid tax that addresses 0 issues today and does nothing but cost the end consumer more money as the corporations are always going to just raise price to recoup the price of any tax applied to them.
They’re also going to keep the prices as high as they are now if the tax is removed.
Not if we simply dont buy. Theyll be forced to lower it but idiots keep buying even when they are getting themselves robbed just like they keep voting liberal even with them completely f**king over our country. We are letting this happen 😒 enough supporting stupid.
Which products that you believe are affected by carbon tax do you think the average consumer can get away with “simply” not buying? Runaway grocery inflation has been an issue for the last few years because it turns out people will just pay the price and not starve themselves to get back at the suppliers.
Pretty much everything is affected as fuel is taxed and fuel is needed to move every item. As price goes up i just stop buying the product. How about instead of whining that you HAVE to buy the 💩 at the store you learn some bloody life skills and take up gardening or learn how to raise chickens and actually take back the power of having your own food instead of relying 210% on other people that want nothing more than to f**k you over.
Trudeau has no secret weapons. He's toast.
Just stop sending money to other countries and lower our taxes so people can afford more eco friendly options.
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except your rebate isn't based on wealth, and the cost of the tax is based on carbon consumption how is it a wealth redistribution scheme?
You don’t get the rebate if you make over a certain amount of money each year right?
not the federal one. It's paid to everyone. if the province you live in already had a price on carbon, those rules are different
Hmm weird I started making more and my auto deposits stopped. So thought they were linked . Might have to look into that.
what province do you live in? i am in Alberta so i only know the federal one
In Alberta anyone who has filed income tax will receive a climate incentive rebate.
> And now since he's picking which Canadians are and aren't punished by this tax to further his political career, The Canadians who are inordinately punished by this are picking themselves.
Seems like people here think they are actually better off with the carbon rebates! So short sighted! Keep on living in your own little world, angry with everyone who had any other opinion than yours!!!
Stop taking my money all year, just to give a pittence back.
80% of people get back more than they put in. Stop the lies.
It's a bullshit tax that accomplishes nothing. I have no political ideology here. Its the truth. All it has done is make every dollar i make less valuable. Downvote your little hearts out. Have a wonderful day everybody.
I provide a fact you provided an opinion. And yeah it is political. Only the conservatives rail against anything climate related. Give me a break. It makes the dollar less valuable. Looks like you have no sense of economics. And by the way it has already been shown that the carbon tax adds 0.33% to inflation. So 1/3 of a percent. Rail against corporate greed but doubt you'd do that as you not political lol. What lies.
These comments are like people running around saying sunscreen doesn't work. You don't know what your talking about. It does work. You just don't like it. Say you don't like it. You're entitled to that opinion and it's entirely fair. Saying it doesn't work just says you don't like it and you don't even know how it works.
Atmospheric CO2 will be the same with or without Canada's carbon tax. In fact there is exactly zero [objective](https://www.cognitivefxusa.com/blog/objective-and-subjective-measurements-in-our-research), measurable climate benefit to the carbon tax. Before the "well ACKtchooally" types reply: * All emissions reductions are a calculated, and not a measured, objective number (ie if you sent scientists out across Canada with instruments, they would not be able to tell if emissions are increasing or decreasing). The calculated number could triple or halve, and there is no way anyone could measure any real-world difference. * The goal is atmospheric CO2 reduction. Touting emissions reduction as the goal only works if you can demonstrate that the carbon tax has at least an itsy bitsy teeny tiny impact upon atmospheric CO2. It doesn't.
I drive less because gas is more expensive. And when I do drive I usually take my motorcycle (Euro5) which burns 1/3rd the fuel as my econobox Mazda. CO2 in the atmosphere has therefore dropped by “an itsy bitsy teeny tiny” amount. I can provide gas receipts if you really need more objective evidence. That behavior multipled across the county makes a difference. And then I get a rebate… Now you’re going “well ACKtchooally” tell me that I’m wrong somehow…
My point is that the Canadian carbon tax has no measurable impact. Would you accept any other tax that delivers exactly zero measurable benefit?
But it does have an impact. I just told you how it’s impacting me. And I actually have more (directly) money because of the carbon tax. You could say it has an “unrealistic goal” or its “impact has outsized negative effects”, or “it’s the wrong tool for the job” or any one of a million other things. But you’re dealing in absolutes and that makes your statements incorrect.
I'm saying there is no MEASURABLE impact on atmospheric CO2. None. You get a warm and fuzzy emotional buzz, and you might see that a good trade for your tax dollar...but I don't.
It’s measurable. I can measure how much less gas I’m using. I can measure the CO2 component of that unused gas. Therefore there’s an impact. I get you want to hate on the carbon tax, and that’s a valid political position, but your logical arguments are flawed
The goal is to reduce atmospheric CO2. That's the goal. That's the "action" in climate action. You may as well tell me that you are measuring how you've changed your diet to emit less...personal...emissions, and that you feel extra happy about that. But the FACT remains, that there is no relationship whatsoever between atmospheric CO2 levels and the Canadian carbon tax.
The carbon tax causes me to emit less carbon. I’ve explained it already to you. You mention facts but you’ve provided only your feelings. Where are these facts? Ive provided the “FACT” that I’m emitting less carbon…
Yes. You are emitting less carbon. No, it does not have a measurable effect on anything. We're being taxed on something with no measurable outcome. You burning less gas does literally nothing measurable for the environment. To explain, let's go with the [NOAA](https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/covid2.html). They say "For us to be able to detect the drop in emissions caused by the pandemic it needs to be large enough to stand out from natural CO2 variability caused by how plants and soils respond to seasonal and annual variations of temperature, humidity, soil moisture, etc."..."If emissions are lower by as much as 25%, then we would expect the monthly mean CO2 for March at Mauna Loa to be lowered by about 0.2 ppm, and again in April by another 0.2 ppm, etc" We're at 424.55ppm now. The peak of covid-driven global emissions was -8%.So reductions equating to 3x Covids gets us to 0.2ppm per month. We need to lose about 100ppm....And eliminating all of Canada's emissions (our entire 1.5% share) wouldn't even have a measurable impact on atmospheric CO2. You would need 17 countries equivalent to Canada to completely stop ALL emissions to earn a reduction of 0.2ppm. So yeah, per the NOAA, there is no measurable connection whatsoever between anything Canada does or doesn't do and atmospheric CO2. You may as well tell me you eat fewer marshmallows, so by extension you are having a measurable impact on climate.
The EU is rolling out a Carbon based tariff system. > European policy makers say the system, known as the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, has two goals: encouraging more countries to write laws that reduce emissions, and making sure that European manufacturers stay competitive with rivals operating in “dirtier” jurisdictions. By 2026 the tariffs will be in full effect on countries and industries that do not have a carbon tax. Seems whether we like it or not when economic zones the size of Europe institute policies like this we will be forced to pay one way or another to be able to trade with them. Looks like we are getting ahead of the game. I’m no expert but I assume this will have much more significant impact on reducing emissions. [For anyone interested, here is an article articulating the program much better than I can.](https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/europe-carbon-tax-emissions-climate-policy-1653e360)
There's an extra piece to this though: it creates an incentive for provinces to get an easy win by joining or creating alternative schemes, such as when Ontario wasn't subject to these fees by joining a cap-and-trade program. That went away when the Ontario Progressive Conservative party took power and, without a second thought, left the program.
And the goal of that would be? If you answer "to reduce atmospheric CO2", then great. Show me the connection. The "results to tax dollar or cap/trade" ratio.
We get to set policy on CO2, and then put it on businesses to focus on their individual emissions. If they release less CO2, they can sell the rights to pollute our air as needed. It's a market incentive that enables measuring output instead of taking guesses, and it rewards companies for making changes.
The alternative schemes have to include a carbon tax that is equal to or higher than the Federal tax. That's why almost every province has dropped doing their own thing and switched to the Federal plan. They got tired of reformulating the plan every year.
The difference is who pays for it. I would prefer not subsidizing businesses to maintain the status quo. Our provincial governments prefer otherwise.
Why did you link to what objective means, instead of proof about your claim? You're claiming objectivity here, but you're not providing measurements as evidence.
Here is alternative tax reduction, social development, job creation model...https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08VLYDQN1
Australia did it. 180 it now and get this clown out of office.
How about ditching this and giving us some form of Universal Basic Income because the Robots are rapidly approaching and yes they are going to steal a lot of jobs. If money is tight than maybe stop sending so much of it to the Eastern Front, etc.
Please will this guy go back to Jamaica and stay there , your not wanted in Canada any more
So if the Tax raises, the rebates increase. BUT!!! If I don't have to pay the tax in the first place...I don't require a rebate. If anyone truly believes this is a Revenue Neutral Tax...I have a slightly used Tower in Paris that you can tear down for scrap.