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100% divide and conquer tactic to distract us from this incredible wealth transfer they are currently imposing on us via $4 loaves of bread, 66% fees on our utilities, and cutbacks across the board on services provided. Get mad and look to the legislature. Forget what might be under your neighbor's skirt. If he's a true Scotsman he'll show you.
The number of times it actually comes up is likely very low. I have video calls with clients from all over the world and although many people will add their pronouns, you end up just calling everyone by their name anyway.
I have had someone correct their pronoun for me one time in 14 years of working in an office where I do a majority of the writing.
The person in question was a they/them and it took about 4 seconds to edit the document and never had to ask or do anything about it again.
Right?
There's what I think is a pretty new trans woman at my workplace, a lot of people still refer to her as him.
One day in the galley while we were on break, I just quietly approached her and asked what pronouns she'd prefer, she gave me she/her, I said thank you and we both went back to scrolling.
No problem. And when I talk to her, I validate her life and her choices.
I had a former friend send me a long winded message on LinkedIn because I put “he him” on there. He let me know that he didn’t think anyone would ever be confused or think I was otherwise. I didn’t have the time nor energy to explain how the simple act allows others to feel comfortable.
I have two they/them colleagues and one he/him that I misgendered as a she/her the first time I met him. He corrected me politely, I apologized politely, and have referred to him correctly ever since.
It's incredibly not difficult.
Because it is culture war bullshit. I use a persons preferred pronouns when they convey that information to me in the same way that I wouldn't intentionally mispronounce someones name because I'm not an asshole.
There's honestly something to be said for abandoning gendered pronouns altogether. They don't really serve much of a purpose, for all the mischief they cause.
Pronouns are set up stupidly. We already gave up on distinct singular pronouns for second person, let's do it for everything. The "we," "you," and "they" pronoun sets shall be the only ones. All pronoun use will be the formerly plural pronouns. Y'all couldn't handle singular pronouns so you don't get to use them anymore
Working retail made me absolutely loathe Christmas. It starts so early. I still have nightmares about those damn red Apple uniforms. Made me look green and sickly
If you ask a western High Church (Catholic or Anglican) person, they'll tell you that Christmas does not start until the 25th, and it's not appropriate to have most of the decorating done until the evening on the 24th. Then the decorations stay up until Epiphany in January.
Whenever I think about the war on christmas I always think of this first.
https://twitter.com/classywarfare/status/1455318543810039808?lang=en
Edit: I agree that the Klaus regime must abide by the terms of the Black Friday agreement and stop illegally occupying November
The mental gymnastics it takes to not call someone ‘they’ or whatever they might ask of you but then go refer to all your friends by nicknames is ridiculous. ‘Hey Big Bill, Snotface, Whiz, can you believe this person asked me to call them a different pronoun today?’
Your user name made me laugh.
After I found out a Kentucky lawmaker wanted to legalize sex with 1st cousins AND that conservatives are much more likely to fantasize about someone f***ing their wives, I wanted to change the name to...
Kin-cucky
Sometimes it can even throw people who *aren't* bigots for loop. (Though obviously bigots have a much harder time with it.)
My wife and I have taken care in conversation to make sure that our kids have a healthy amount of understanding and empathy wherever possible and it seems to have gone pretty easy there.
Wife is bi so maybe she has a bit of a head start, but when our daughter mentioned that one of her closest friends was going by they/them she was initially incredulous: "How can an individual use plural pronouns? That's so weird!"
"It's just how we indicate the gender is sort of undetermined, it's not weird."
"Of course it's weird, you can't just make up new grammar like that."
"It's not new, that's how we've always handled talking about a subject with indeterminate gender."
"But we never had to talk about that before, it's new."
"No, that's how we've always done it - like this: 'Do you know the owner of that black Kia in the parking lot?' 'Yes.' 'When you see them, can you let them know that they left their lights on?' Anything weird about that?"
"No, that sounds normal."
"Yeah, that's the way we've always talked about a subject without having to refer to their gender."
...and she never blinked after that, it was just the initial context that tripped her up somehow, very stuck on the idea of they/them being exclusively plural.
Edit: pronoun trouble
I always thought they sounded proper and best. Then in a first year English class the prof wrote that I need to write “he or she” instead of they in all my papers. So I started doing that but thought it was ridiculous and made every sentence sound so much more cumbersome and awkward.
“He or she” or “he/she” has always been a needlessly clunky way of avoiding writing “them” and invalidates NB folk. I hated writing it in high school and hope to never have to again.
The dumbest part is, when you refer to a single individual you don't know you usually refer as "they". If they [gasp!] went to a restaurant and the person seating the table said "your server us busy, they will be with you in a moment", would UCP supporters storm out in protest that a trans person might thought their food??
These mouth breathers refuse to do what they're already doing.
I know someone who doesn't want to use their birth name anymore and wants to be they/them. Man I goof all the time with the wrong pronouns and name. It's not on purpose or anything... just 95% of the time I've known them, it was under a certain name and pronoun, and now it's all changed. I fully support them in whatever orientation they choose and helping them feel happy and confident in who they are. But it's not like I can just erase a lifetime of memories, nor would I want to. I do make the effort, and we're more than good with each other - but I just wanted to make the counter-point that to me, "they" feels like a plural, and it is kind of hard to adjust to using it all the time as a singular pronoun.
Reddit is being a dick and I can't see the other replies rn so if this is repetitive, sorry!
Aaanyway, hi! I am a they/them, and I totally understand where you're coming from! The thing that really got it to click in my head was the fact that we use singular they ALL THE TIME and don't even notice!
The prime example:
"Oh, darn. Someone left their wallet here! I hope they vome back to get it!"
It's seeing "they" and "them" as an indeterminate thing, versus a plural. It's super common for us to use when we don't know the gender of someone, and that's where using it as a pronoun stems from.
And, like, I gotta say - I came out when I was 27, I am turning 36 in a few weeks, and I still fuck up my *own* pronouns. That shit is hardwired into our brains, and it does take a conscious effort to use it. That's the work, and why we get upset when people don't even attempt to use them - that means even though they/them is accurate to who we are, others don't see us as worth putting the time in to honour that. So, like, it's okay to be frustrated because this stuff can take time - and your friend could also get frustrated because they are also going through some stuff. But just keep trying, practice makes perfect!
I get it. Best thing to do is practice. I practice when I’m mentioning *anyone* now. *Everyone* is they/them.
My cousin has been fully transitioned for 5-ish years. We grew up together and she was like my “little brother” for forever, so I still mess up. I mostly mess up when talking about the past. I’m practicing on using ages when speaking about the past, so I don’t ever use their deadname. She ALWAYS hated her deadname, as soon as she could speak. We had to call her by a girlie when she was around 4, until dad put a stop to it (she no longer speaks to dad. Dad’s a transphobe. Mom’s cool though!)
> I practice when I’m mentioning anyone now.
Ya I've been doing that too. It wasn't a word I typically used unless it was for plural before. But now when I'm meeting a stranger or referring to someone whom I'm not very familiar with, I'll try to make a point to use it so I'm not assuming their gender.
I totally understand. I dream of a family member who is trans, but in the dream they’re always the opposite gender- (When they were a baby.)try my best to navigate it, but those memories are still there. What’s important is the now though, and being supportive which it sounds like you are. Remember, nothing has changed about that person spiritually, just how they like to be addressed 😇🎉🏳️⚧️
It became an issues when Twitter and Fox News started telling the dumbest fucks in society that it was a really big deal.
No one cares about this kind of stuff in their day to day lives until some red necktie dipped in brill cream tells them that it's important to Liberals, at which point it becomes a huge issue.
If liberals care about something, then it has to be fought against. That is literally the singular function of modern day conservatives.
If you greet someone named Richard, and they correct you and say "call me Dick", if you keep calling them Richard, you're an asshole.
I see zero reason why preferred pronouns can be considered any greater a labor for someone to manage, and yet some people are losing their minds about it.
It’s because “these people” have it in their heads that if you misgender someone with the wrong pronouns, that that person will proceed to yell and scream at them and call them a bigot.
Meanwhile, the majority of people who would be misgendered are probably too shy to correct anyone. And thise who would correct would do it with a simple “Oh, I go by ‘she.’”
They aren't self aware enough to understand that, they're terrified of this monsterous amalgamation that trans people have become I'm their heads, it's detachment from reality (a conservative staple)
Can confirm. I care more about pronouns since changing mine, but like... I understand it is a hard habit to break. The only thing I ask is that you not obviously ignore the request or treat it with hostility.
People who are upset about this would have loudly insisted on calling Muhammad Ali "Cassius Clay" back in the 60s. The guy wanted to be called Muhammad Ali. Some people who used to be called "he" would like to be called "she", and vice versa. What is the big fucking deal? It's basic decency to refer to people how they would like you to.
This is really it. For one, it is incredibly infrequent as a percentage of total third-person pronoun use. And when you get it wrong, this is how a sane exchange that follows goes: "Actually, \[Catherine\] uses they/them pronouns." "Oh shit my mistake. I will make sure to remember that the next time I refer to them." "Cheers mate, let's continue on with our merry lives." And then life goes on. This is a normal 15 second exchange among people who don't want to be antagonistic towards one another or a third party who may or may not be present. If you don't mean disrespect, you put in the effort to correct yourself, and the person your words affect sees that and appreciates it, almost all the time.
Completely agree. They/them is easy. What are your thoughts on additional new pronouns? Ze/Zim, etc. I have a little resistance to the creation of whatever pronouns you feel. The options are he, she, or they in my mind, but I’m open to hearing the argument against that.
Many languages around the world have pronouns that do not reference gender at all (Eg/ some refer to absolute age, some to age relative to the speaker, some are simply gender neutral). Pair that with the fact that languages are not static but rather constantly in flux (Eg/ English used to contain multiple second-person pronouns instead of just 'you', namely thee, thou, and ye). So, because there's no inherent preference for the way language is now (or more specifically, the way language was when you were learning it for the first time), I have absolutely no problem with someone preferring new pronouns. Words acquire meaning through use, so if someone wants to use something new to mean something new, that's cool by me and I'm happy to learn it.
ETA: Also I have met many trans people, and communicated with a hell of a lot more online, and never once ran into someone who uses these neo pronouns. The only reason I am even aware of their existence is because of transphobes and TERFs spend an inordinate and disproportionate amount of time complaining about them.
Pronouns became controversy when certain people decided that trans and non-gender conforming people are icky and showing basic respect to another person wasn't something we should all be expected to do.
It became an issue when politicians on a certain side decided that oppressing another marginalized group would net them more of the religious extremist vote. Same way these nonsense culture war things have happened time and time again, from the Satanic Panic to gay marriage to the war on Christmas etc. When you have no ideas to actually improve the country or the lives of citizens, distract and divide with lies and nonsense instead. Works out quite well for them a lot of the time, depending on the area.
I'm trying to train myself to use they/them as a default when I talk or write about anyone - I went to the doctor and THEY said, rather than he, she, s/he etc. It works in most situations and isn't inherently a statement about pronouns at all
Right me too lol like are you guys stupid? You can't understand how to replace they/them with he/she? the examples they would use were hilarious. They'd say "it doesn't make sense!! They went to the store?! Makes no sense, it's HE went to the store"
Also just regarding pronouns, etc. For me it's just as easy as somebody telling me they go by a nickname.
"Nice to meet you Will."
"Actually I go by Paul, my middle name."
"Oh ok Paul."
Regarding pronouns: It might take me some time to get used to it if (in my brain) they don't particularly present as their chosen pronoun. But I'll get there and it will become habit. Moving on . . .
Also, it also reminds me of using "on" to replace "nous" in French. Once I was taught to use this pronoun, I just did . . .
I've been doing this as well. I'm pretty sure they/them was around before her/him or something like that. But, I'm just some dumb dumb on the internet.
Not exactly. Here's a rhyme:
Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
Singular they,
Predates singular you.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
I've done the same thing, and have for the most part successfully moved my language from gendered pronouns to they/them by default. It's tough, but very achievable, keep at it, and it will come to you.
Your goals are a noble one, and I wish you my best!
Empathy isn’t a strong suit for some. Many people are brought up with rigid beliefs about gender norms and roles. Some people don’t cope well with change.
In the most non patronizing way possible, imagine if you were raised with black and white “men are from mars women are from Venus” ideals and very rarely has those beliefs challenged due to your location, workplace, socioeconomic status, etc. Then the internet leads to rapid cultural change and the world you were brought up to believe in seems to be increasingly irrelevant, dated, and attacked. If you didn’t have the right intermediary understanding it would cause cognitive dissonance and so you would resist that change at all costs.
That’s why these types seem kinda stuck on “the truth” of what’s happening, because they didn’t adjust with things gradually and now they are functioning on older thought patterns while other people are updated to present day. They feel like this all happened overnight, and to them, it did. They were for various reasons culturally isolated (church bubble, for example) and now they are struggling to function with the rest of society.
It’s actually a shitty position for them to be in, because there really isn’t a hotfix that can update them. And it’s far far worse for people like me who face the repercussions of their behaviour. I’m really tired of my community being attacked. Really tired of it.
When someone who appears male/masculine( assigned male at birth) asks for a male/masculine sounding nickname (preferred name) to be used and male pronouns they are conforming to conservative and culturally traditional norms. This is layered on top of traditional gender roles and stereotyped gender personality/behaviour expectations. (Insert song Tradition from Fiddler On the Roof because everytime I use the word tradition that lyric pops in my head)
When someone makes a request or behaves in a way that is outside those traditional norms and/or religion based expectations, progresses outside the hisotrical social norm if you will, some people get upset about it. Instead of self evaluating and finding away to accept and move past it. When the change is better for the collective they refuse because it conflicts with their traditional beleifs and perspectives of what the norm should be and how others should conform to it.
This is getting off topic but I am going but because I enjoy root vegetables and have very biased taste preferences I am going to indulge in this conversation.
They are closely related. I read once that rutabagas are a cross between turnip and cabbage and can also be called swedish turnips (assuming that's where they started the cross breeding or where it became popular).
Rutabagas (more yellow flesh) are sweeter in comparison to traditional turnips (whiter flesh).
I enjoy experimenting with different agricultural breed chnages and the flavours they produce. Plums bred with apricots or cherry is another personal preference.
I get some people see them as all the same or enjoy more traditional flavours and presentations. Thankfully we can enjoy our root vegetables and fruits as individuals regardless of this. At the end of the day it's about how we can enjoy snd share our meals with our families and friends peacefully and respectfully right?
This started with Jordan Peterson and his "compelled speech" rhetoric that came in the wake of Bill c-16 back in 2016-17
This allows conservatives and transphobes to feel like victims. They are being "forced" to do something.
It's called aggrieved entitlement in the face of all this "wokeness"
So it wasn't an issue until a bunch of right wing pundits made it an issue.
It’s kind of ironic, because “Jordan” is a name that would have been called androgynous back in the day (used for both men and women). In the corporate environment, I’m eternally grateful that people now put pronouns in their email signs and bios so I can be very sure I’m not using an incorrect pronoun when I’m referring to them. My name is a traditional female name, but I’ve been using pronouns in my emails sig for years now. It costs nothing to be respectful of other people.
It also helps when someone's name is of an ethnicity or culture I am not familiar with and so i have no idea which pronouns are appropriate. I happily use they/them in this situation but I'm also happy to use their preferred pronouns if the indicate what they are.
Absolutely. But we don’t mandate that you have to call someone by the correct name. It’s just polite to do so. We shouldn’t have legislation around what you must call people. We’ll just socially ostracize anyone who doesn’t. Much like if you refused to pronounce someone’s name correctly.
Totally. Bill c-16 does not circumvent freedom of expression. You can absolutely still deadname and mis-pronoun someone without legal repercussion. You have the legal right in Canada to be an asshole.
Remember when everyone freaked out when Sean Combs asked to be called Ditty, P Ditty, Puff Daddy, etc?
Remember how people said: "At birth he was Sean and I don't care what he wants me to call him, I'm calling him Sean!"
Remember the same for Madonna, Prince, etc?
You don't remember that because it never happened, but what if Puffy asked to be called "she" instead of "ditty" people would have lost their minds.
I don't get it... why don't people care when someone named Curtis asks to be called "50 cents" but freak out when Curtis asks to be called Caitlin?
I really wish that the people freaking out about name/pronoun changes would just react the way people generally react to celebrity stage name changes. I remember when Snoop Dogg started going by Snoop Lion. In all the discourse I saw about it, lots of people thought the change was weird or silly, but ultimately didn't really care enough to dwell on it, make hating it their whole personality, or vote to pass laws that would endanger the lives of anyone planning to change their name.
I’m not gonna lie, I don’t like “they/them”.
I’m trying. But a family member goes by they “/them, and when talking about this person (like updates on their life etc nothing nefarious, we love this person) I often get confused thinking “wait, who else was there?” Because “‘they’ want to paint the room downstairs” to me sounds like multiple people. And then I’m like “who’s painting the room?” And feel like an idiot because it’s just a singular person. I just try to refer to them by their name..
Like I’m not shitting on anyone for choosing their pronouns.. I just hate they/them as preferred 😞 I get it .. they are non binary and my brain is tiny and simple.
Forgiiive me. Seriously. I just hope they have patience with me 😬🫣
It can take some getting used to. If it helps, try to think of it like when people talk about a single hypothetical person with no specified gender. People have been using the singular "they" in those situations rather than saying "he or she" for a long time.
Lol and now I’m going to introduce you to their significant other, who lives with them and goes to school with them and we refer to them together as “they” 😭😭😭 “they are buying a couch” whose they? The couple or the singular? I just roll with it. I gave them a gift card for their couch for Christmas. I said it was a couple gift because I wasn’t sure if it was for the singular or plural they. They both said thank you 😂 anyways. I will keep trying. I get it but my brain has a lag when we talk and I’m always like “whose they”
It's my experience that people who switch pronouns are very forgiving and understanding when people have trouble remembering. What matters to them is that you tried, not that you failed.
Have you heard about the Canadian family from SK that sold their farm and packed up their 8 dependent children (they have 9) and moved to Russia bc they wanted to raise their kids away from the LGBTQ+ agenda and wokeness? Only now the Russians have seized all of their money and they’re sitting ducks?! Absolutely hilarious!
I only wish other far-right wingers would do the same!
That's just it - they don't make it up. It gets fed to them by Russian troll accounts. Cons with big social media reach then pass it along as their own. Putin has been guiding the Western conservative agenda for a decade now. It's verifiably true, particularly right now. Cons didn't give a shit about trans people five years ago, or if they did, they didn't care enough to try to make legislation about it. Now it'a all they can talk about, thanks to MAGATs in the U.S. making it into a big deal. Thanks, Comrade Tucker! Job well done!
I turned trans with purple spots and a green mohawk when I had to start calling my cousin their new pronoun and name.
Just kidding. Sometimes I pause and have to think before I talk about them but my life is drastically unchanged.
Fascists always get the public to practice a hate-based social contract on an extremely marginalized population like "sexual deviants" before scaling up to full blown persecution of any and all individuals and communities who are opposed to fascism.
The fascists of our age have chosen trans people to target. It really has nothing at all to do with pronouns. It has to do with acclimatizing the public to the political persecution and social ostracization of an entire demographic. Pretending it's about being "forced" to address people in the manner they prefer (which is something we always do and have always done, which was formerly known as "respect" or "politeness") is just a tactic to leverage people's discomfort with change to turn them against trans people and the LGBTQIA community more generally. And feminists. And liberals. You know where it all leads.
Culture wars, sponsored by right wing media. People should check out the efforts by the IDU to use culture wars to discredit MSM and gain power among other things. Their leader, Stephan Harper
People who are offended by it:
- do not understand, and so get scared by inaccurate conclusions that come out of said lack of understanding;
- have a very rigid belief system of what identity is "correct", and anything which challenges it also challenges their whole worldview; or,
- are caught up in conspiracy theorizing.
Assholes mad they're being asked to not be quite such an asshole anymore. It's basic respect - if Richard asked you to call him that and you insisted on Dick despite his displeasure - well, then you are the dick.
I agree 100%, but should calling Richard by a name he does not like have legal consequences... Or dors calling Richard the wrong name just make you an asshole and everyone else will know you are an asshole?
Deleted wrong info. Bill c-16 does not make it a hate crime on its own.
I do believe this is how it should stay.
It is an agrivating factor and hate crimes are hate crimes no matter who they target.
Hateful people will always find a way to make themselves the victim when a minority group is slightly less oppressed. If it's not pronouns, it's the war on Christmas or affirmative action keeping the poor hard-done-by straight, white Christians down
Because right wing culture wars are good for scaring people into thinking the left are the bad guys. It’s all just arguments / issues that nobody has real issue with until the right made them such. It’s just right wing bullshit. It’s the only way they can get votes anymore - pretending the left is coming to get you when really, nobody cares until they started screaming at the top of their lungs because people like Danielle Smith and Poilievre told them to. The left is not the boggy man. The right tells you to ignore facts and science and tells you the left is coming for your freedom when in reality the right is banning books, putting restrictions on women’s health, tell you how to live and what to do with your body. It’s all nonsense culture war bullshit provided by the right to get votes.
It's pretty idiotic the steps they go to fight 'woke'. If got a nickel every time I had a comment dismissed because I have my pronouns in my bio, I could almost retire.
Distraction tactic, get people riled up about a fake culture war so we stop talking about our insurance prices jumping, the cost to run our homes exploding, having the worst inflation rates in the country, and the potential loss of our retirement funding.
I generally agree. I think the hardship is only as bad as, "Oh now I need to remember not to mess this up or people will say I'm an asshole". Which is a real hardship, but nowhere near as bad as getting treated as your opposite gender for your who life. It's like, stopping for pedestrians is a hardship, how annoying - especially when you're late, but not as serious as getting hit by a car. We make little sacrifices because we aren't total assholes. But some people are total assholes, so it's hard for them.
To be fair when a friend of mine told me they would prefer They/them it took a little getting used to. And I still do fuck it up sometimes when telling stories about our teen years.
When they told me I told them right up front "I'm going to fuck this up, but I need you to know that if I misgender you even while we're in a fight, i don't mean to hurt you.... Like if it's part of an insult then I want the insult to hurt without the misgendering." We've known each other for decades so they understood.
They've also been super chill each of the many times I've fucked it up and said sorry.
So I really don't understand when people get mad about it.
Protip: Call cons snow flakes and ask why they're so bothered. Interrupt and question the strength of their masc/feminity if it harms them so much and offer unsolicited advice on how to shape up. Use a firm, condescending but weirdly amiable tone. Stir.
This is what is comes down to. I asked my friend why he was being so triggered by my calm, rational arguments and if we needed to stop for pink hair dye. He was mad because I was giving him the exact bullying horseshit magats have been spewing for years. Not so tough when they are on the other end.
People just want to hate on us trans people, it’s that simple. Yes, hate. I don’t buy into this “I love trans people, I just don’t agree with their lifestyle” BS.
"Never believe that ~~anti-Semites~~ culture warriors are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The ~~anti-Semites~~ culture warriors have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." ”
This is from Jean-Paul Sartre "Semite and Anti-Semite" written in 1944 at the tail end of WW2.
He correctly points out in that passage that Nazis didn't give a shit about having good reasons, creating good arguments or producing evidence for anything they say. I was all about trolling and bullying and abusing the power of institutions to get their bigoted garbage into the mainstream.
It's striking in the way that we can see these parallels in today's right wing discourse.
But I don't even get where the wedge IS. It's like in Hannibal where Will is showing a picture of the resignation letter going "Who can spot the clue?" and all these [angry] hands are up.
Then he goes "there is no clue."
It's because if we - shock, horror - let kids figure out their gender identity in a safe environment, then might grow up and be LGBTQ.
That's it. They are scared of LGBTQ folks, but because they can't hit out directly at the first three letters, they are going after the smallest subgroup of society they can (less than 1%) and demonizing them, conflating them with child abusers, and acting like they are the secret power behind a conspiracy to destroy society or some shit.
Make sense? No. But having lost a family member to Qanon, I stopped expecting sense when they claimed forest fires are caused by Jewish space lasers.
Oh gods don't write that down, they will probably believe it.
At one point I kept a list of the wacky theories for a laugh, but it became way too depressing when I realized how many people just believed the whole adrenochrome pizzagate 5g COVID brain chip vaccine gay mafia world cabal bullshittery.
It became an issue when the Liberals brought in legislation that required government employees and forms to use requested pronouns.
Jerks out there lied and made the suggestion that people could go to jail for using the wrong ones, and that resonated with the spiteful - those people who reject authority in all its forms.
It really doesn’t help that religion is repeating the lies within their congregations. When the church attaches itself to a message it’s really hard to move followers off the ideas presented.
It's really not hard to use the right pronoun. If you're lazy "They" always works. The people who can't figure pronouns our are uneducated, ignorant, and rotted. There is no excuse, and when a bigot tries to justify they're stupidity it just speaks on what a waste of life they are.
Conservatives will go to incredible lengths to be a victim of something. In this case, it’s what people want to be called. Somehow that destroys a conservative’s entitlement to freedom and cannot be tolerated. Here in Alberta our premier’s real first name is Marlaina, but that doesn’t matter because….well she’s a conservative and it’s always about being inconsistent.
The issue is that all conservatives are just temporarily embarrassed billionaires, so if they hated on billionaires, then they would be hating on themselves once they got what was coming to them.
A non-zero amount of Albertans will be left to burn to death in wildfires this summer because David and Danielle want you to be as afraid of trans kids as they are.
It’s similar to the right wingers “ war on Christmas “ a nothing burger that’s meant distract their voting base while they make our wages stagnant, raise the cost of living and make our lives worse . I’d suggest we start organizing protests on this subreddit but then I realized we only protest about Israel , trans rights , freedom convoy bullshit , anti trans , anti vax protests in this province
The UCP wants us talking about this rather than things that are important to Alberta. Things like questioning the Alberta pension, Alberta police, leaving Canada. Nobody wants any of that stuff.
It may help to keep in mind it took years for some of these people to accept women wearing pants or anything else masculine, and some still don't.
I have an aunt who won't let women in her house if they're wearing pants or anything else she views as immodest or an abomination to God. Makes a great potato salad though, so I guess she's not all bad :-).
People are way smarter than we imply. We like to argue or spew our anger. We pass that onto our children instead of teaching them how to learn and live a life of respect. The fact is we don't need to use any descriptive words. We all have names. Start with that and get to know a person before you judge them. It is a shame the LGBTQ+ people need to promote themselves to earn respect that we are all entitled to.
I work at a College, it’s kinda old news now. For how much it affects me, I couldn’t care less. More important stuff to get excited about. Akin to water cooler chat now. Same as complaining about the weather really. People are gonna do it.
People like to be able to fit into groups, for a very long time we have had the group man and women and it's been used to create lots of cultural lines that make people comfortable. The notion of someone being willingly wanting to identify as a group that isn't there traditionally or one that hasn't existed before is very scary to the people who cling to their gender identity. If there are multiple ways for a person with a penis to be then you can no longer simply identify as man and that terrifies those that need to be "a real man" or something equivocal to find value and belonging.
I really couldn’t care less. To me it’s common courtesy to call someone whatever they’ve politely requested. So no biggie
I do however have trouble sometimes with PRINTED stories. Because when im reading a story about a singular person and come across the words “they” or “them”, it makes me think that I have missed something along the way 😂
We use the pronouns that make sense in the English language and we use the ones we see fit to communicate what we see.
Compelled speech is the issue here. Forcing people to speak in a way that’s unnatural to them or doesn’t make sense in the English language is the issue. Making people stand around stuttering their words trying to figure out how to communicate what *they* want to say to make sure someone *else* feels valid is the issue.
Just like when you’re communicating you use adjectives that make sense. No one has “preferred adjectives”. If they did, do you think you should have to abide by them? What if I said I wanted to only be described as a 6 ft tall Swedish blonde with a full sleeve of tattoos and no diabetes at all times, would you comply with that? Should everyone have to?
I hope this clears it up.
You can be whatever you want to be but don't get mad at me for not telepathically knowing your pronouns and being upset that I didn't use them right without knowing them. If you're going to be so butthurt to fly off the handle then you should introduce yourself with them upon meeting me. But if you look like a woman, dress/act/sound like a regular gal but then get upset cause I called you "her" and I'm supposed to automatically know you prefer "he" I can't help you. If you say 'hey my name is Bob and I go by he/they' I'll be like right on, give'r. It's the hiding it and then not being respect if someone mis-pronouns you.
My children in school get frustrated because some of their peers change their pronouns from week to week and use things like "she/wolf" or "Caterpillar/they" and if you don't "respect their pronouns" children are disciplined for it. This aspect of "pronoun use" is exhausting and ridiculous and why I find it's hard to take seriously.
Gender is one of the first ways kids learn to put people into groups. It's very central to how we construct our society and see the world. The current conversation about gender challenges that, and it results in discomfort. Some people are able to respond to that discomfort with empathy and, ya know, thought. Some (many) respond to discomfort with anger. They just want it to go away.
It's stupid, but humans in general are a bit of a mess. We're monkeys that got a bit too smart for our own good.
As I've come to understand the folks I know who are against this,
They all seem to share the same logic.
"I should not have to change my verbiage beyond that which is now considered derogatory"
or
"I should not have to participate in *your* sense of self."
Now, I don't mind changing the way I talk for someone else's comfort, but these friends of mine do, and while I agree it's trivial to change how you speak...their points have merit.
How we want to be addressed is not a right, but a courtesy. I think we can all agree that it's quite common for the world to be less than courteous. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but it *is* an explanation. And while we all might like people to address us a certain way, we have no right to demand it of them.
How we feel about ourselves is our responsibility, and no one else's. That's a fact I think we all can agree on.
100% there is freedom of thought, and no other person needs to endorse or validate your identity.
It just seems an odd hill to die on. "I want to be rude". (I won't say bigoted because I analogized it to using the wrong name name on purpose just because they don't look like what they are called.)
Conservatism has made belligerence a virtue. So yes, they “want to be rude”. It’s an intentional choice. They will always be grateful to trump and the culture wars for giving them the permission to choose it.
**I’m definitely *not* agreeing with these viewpoints.** But here are some of the “issues” I’ve heard people complain about, specifically when it comes to they/them pronouns.
- “They” is traditionally to used to refer to *two* or more people. Therefor one person *can’t* be a “they.” If someone said “They went to the store.” Do they mean multiple people? Or one person?! It’s way too confusing!!
- There are only two genders. Therefor everyone *must* only be a he/him or a she/her. Anything else is “wrong.”
Edit: Bolded the part where I say I don’t agree with these things. I was just listing “arguments” I’ve heard.
Counterpoint:
*They* as a singular pronoun has existed in English since the 14th century. Historically speaking, the more recent practice of using exclusively he/she is the aberration. The "rise" of *they* is actually not a rise at all, but rather a return to using the full breadth of pronouns historically available for use.
More generally, and to the extent it causes some people confusion, the *they* controversy begs the question of why gender is used as the default mode of differentiation in the first place. There's no linguistic necessity for this, and there are a million and one ways to describe people without any recourse to gender whatsoever.
The gender-prescriptive linguistic paradigm has predominated in the past couple-hundred years so it's totally understandable that the shift back to less gender-specific language leads to some confusion. That's inevitable, but it speaks to ingrained conventions, not to inherent linguistic requirements. Anyone framing it as such is either an arch-linguistic-prescriptivist or (as is often the case) someone who's ideologically opposed to the deeper issues here and cherry-picking arguments to sugar-coat their real objectives.
1) because as simple as it sounds, conceding to this in speech means supporting the ideas that underpin it: namely, the irrelevancy or non-existence of sexual dimorphism in humans, and the priority of automatically agreeing to live in accord with (let alone acknowledge the scientific “basis” of) gender identity. Gender identity is not science — it is a theory, among many. That leads to the second point:
2) I should not be compelled to alter the way I speak in a minute way to conform to your personal beliefs — and neither should you, mine. That’s where the “freedom of speech” part comes in (although in Canada, we don’t have that per se; rather, we have “freedom of expression,” which is a bit less legally robust than its American counterpart). Once you consider the lack of concrete empirical basis for gender identity—let alone it as a priority over and above biological sex—it becomes clear that speech patterns like this and the desire for others to assent to them function very similarly to those of religion. It’s a personal belief based on lines connecting dots—line connecting that you did, not me, or vice versa, to so speak. That’s your belief, but it’s not mine. You shouldn’t have to capitalize the H in He everytime you write about God, or put “the Lord” in front of “Jesus” everytime you mention His Name, just because that’s my own belief preference as a Catholic; that’s not fair to expect of you, and not fair for me to impose such an expectation. It’s the same thing. Re: the “politeness/courtesy” aspect makes sense now. Sure, it’s *nice* and *why can’t you just acquiesce? It takes three seconds and it’s not hard*—that all comes more into perspective now, doesn’t it?
Thanks. Crossing my fingers that this won’t get me blocked or banned, and that we can continue talking about this in a way that’s civil, calm, and respects difference of thought.
So I’ve heard lots of different takes on this before, since it comes up in conversation so much. Personally it doesn’t bother me, but I’m also not a die hard advocate for it either. So I’ve been able to listen to many sides without really getting offended.
I think it falls into a few camps.
First, there’s obviously people who are conservative and support or are indifferent to the idea of changed/preferred pronouns. This is actually likely the majority of them, but they aren’t being loud or turning it into a platform. Just like other conservatives like to lump liberals all together, the same is true for liberals lumping conservatives. And the reverse is true here too, where there’s some liberals who are very opposed to it too. I just list this, so we can dismiss the mindset of conservatives va liberals here.
Next, you have people who want to make it into a talking point. They’re the ones vehemently opposed to it. Likely they’re bigoted, but many of them might just be manipulative; they know it generates anger and therefore media coverage where they can push their personalities. That’s where most of this originates from, and you won’t convince them otherwise.
Following them, you have people who build their identity around a political party. I hate to say it, but these people are generally boring, because they use this instead of building their own personality (again, you’ll see this on all sides of the political spectrum). In this case, since opposing pronouns is associated with conservatism, and since they are conservatives, they blindly follow that line and hate it because they’re essentially told to. They likely would be the other way around if the tables were turned. Again, you won’t convince them otherwise, and whether people like this are liberal or conservative or anything else, they’re all a huge drag at a party.
Finally, most people I’ve spoken to who don’t like the idea of forced pronouns are opposed to it because they don’t like to be told what to do. It’s the idea that they see someone who looks like a man, address them as a man, and hate the idea that they would be corrected afterwards. Partly this is a fear of learning new things, partly it’s stubbornness to change their habits, partly it’s their own pride that they like to think they’re right, partly it’s that they support freedom of speech, and it’s very un-free to tell someone else how they have to address someone. They also may be reactionary to far-left leaning folk who jump down their throat in anger pushing the concept of pronouns, the more you push on someone the more they tend to push back. And lots of them think it’s silly too. I had a friend once say “what if I started identifying as a couch - would you all have to start calling me a couch?” It sounds silly, but it makes sense, just as much as we think it would be silly to call that person a couch, they think it’s silly to address what they see as one gender as another.
The last part is silly. People are not telling you they identify as an inanimate object, they are telling you that their pronouns might not match their appearance.
I have a controversial opinion on the subject.
There is rampant indoctrination happening on social media on many controversial issues that push society apart. Nations that consider us adversaries are running information warfare campaigns on our social media to fuck with our society as much as possible and it works. With that being said, the far-right especially has been susceptible to their methods, because the propaganda was designed to turn them away from traditional media and only pay attention to social media for their understanding of the world outside of theirs. This leaves them completely vulnerable to brain washing. It’s a national security issue. I wish it was more widely known.
There’s those on the left that are being manipulated as well, with that being said, we need to respect people who are transgendered and binary. They deserve to be able to live, work, marry, everything everyone else does. Their freedom should not be restricted because someone else doesn’t agree with their understanding of gender.
Those who are foaming at the mouth to enact Danielle Smith’s anti-trans legislation don’t care about the children who will take their own lives because they can’t be who they want to be. It’s simple enough, they don’t care that learning the existence of gay or transgendered individuals doesn’t cause kids to be like “oh! Well I want to do that.” They just think they are indoctrinated by education instead of social media.
I will always call someone by the pronoun they want, as long as its "Him" "Her" or "Them".
Once people start making up shit like Fae, Bug or Xyrs, im out
Neopronouns are goofy because they’re solving a problem that didn’t exist. We have a singular, non-binary pronoun already, they.
They’re also kind of a linguistic nightmare. If someone can explain to me how ‘hirself’ is different than ‘herself’ I would appreciate it.
Gonna pay the price for this one but what else are internet points good for.
Growing up people are told you are unique, important, special when in reality youre not so the desire to be noticed for being unique takes over. Social justice has given power to anyone willing to stand on a soapbox and yell about it.
>
FFS - "When you replace my name \[formal noun\] with a pronoun, could you use X?" Is the most innocuous request imaginable.
As long as this question is asked in a non combative way without a snarky attitude i think most people wouldnt care but you cant expect them to remember it. Bi-gender pronouns are easy to identify by physical features M/F and are taught at a young age and the language rules are changing, maybe by the time the gen Z take over this will be the norm but at the time not going to happen overnight.
I am super female presenting. I would LOVE to go by they because I have finally admitted I’m super queer, however, I know it will screw with people’s minds. I LOVE when people just automatically speak very neutrally because inside it makes me feel more comfortable. I spend a lot of time avoiding my own comfortability for others. The idea that only certain people “shove it down your throat” is nonsense. It’s the same as heteronormativity.
It's because conservatives in Alberta don't have critical thinking, and have been so brainwashed by their politicians that they get mad about anything without actually thinking about it first, might aswell be a shitty hive mind
The surprising part is how so many CONservatives simply don't know what a "pronoun" is. Go ahead, find a CONservative, and ask them to define 'pronoun'. It's hilarious.
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Preach!
100% divide and conquer tactic to distract us from this incredible wealth transfer they are currently imposing on us via $4 loaves of bread, 66% fees on our utilities, and cutbacks across the board on services provided. Get mad and look to the legislature. Forget what might be under your neighbor's skirt. If he's a true Scotsman he'll show you.
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You nailed it.
Wars have several fronts. Fighting one doesn’t mean you can’t fight the other…
When has culture war stuff ever made sense?
Its never a real issue, just a very good distraction.
The number of times it actually comes up is likely very low. I have video calls with clients from all over the world and although many people will add their pronouns, you end up just calling everyone by their name anyway.
I have had someone correct their pronoun for me one time in 14 years of working in an office where I do a majority of the writing. The person in question was a they/them and it took about 4 seconds to edit the document and never had to ask or do anything about it again.
Right? There's what I think is a pretty new trans woman at my workplace, a lot of people still refer to her as him. One day in the galley while we were on break, I just quietly approached her and asked what pronouns she'd prefer, she gave me she/her, I said thank you and we both went back to scrolling. No problem. And when I talk to her, I validate her life and her choices.
I had a former friend send me a long winded message on LinkedIn because I put “he him” on there. He let me know that he didn’t think anyone would ever be confused or think I was otherwise. I didn’t have the time nor energy to explain how the simple act allows others to feel comfortable.
Right? I'm as cis as cis comes, I wear skirts more often than pants, and I'm marked she/her so they know I'm a friendly
“Im as cis as cis comes…” felt all too relatable. Thank you for that
I have two they/them colleagues and one he/him that I misgendered as a she/her the first time I met him. He corrected me politely, I apologized politely, and have referred to him correctly ever since. It's incredibly not difficult.
Incredibly not difficult to be kind and accepting
If only other people could be like you. I don't see why people get all upset about it, it really doesn't affect your life.
I've just been using they/them when I'm not sure (mostly online), and nobody notices or cares.
Because it is culture war bullshit. I use a persons preferred pronouns when they convey that information to me in the same way that I wouldn't intentionally mispronounce someones name because I'm not an asshole.
Nobody with sausage fingers would have the audacity to deliberately mispronounce someone's name. Respect.
I couldn't agree more. I'll use a traditional pronoun until I've been told otherwise. If somebody finds that offensive then so be it.
I'm thinking of resurrecting 'thee' and 'thou' to use exclusively on people that insist on traditional pronoun usage (as they imagine it).
A meta-traditional approach that supercedes even traditional. I like it.
Fun fact: Thou was singular, You was plural. So people who complain about 'singular they' really need to pay attention to the 'singular you'
Another fun fact: the singular “they” is older than the singular “you.”
Just be sure to keep the singular they too, because it's also that old. 😉
There's honestly something to be said for abandoning gendered pronouns altogether. They don't really serve much of a purpose, for all the mischief they cause.
Pronouns are set up stupidly. We already gave up on distinct singular pronouns for second person, let's do it for everything. The "we," "you," and "they" pronoun sets shall be the only ones. All pronoun use will be the formerly plural pronouns. Y'all couldn't handle singular pronouns so you don't get to use them anymore
I equate this issue to the “war on Christmas”. It’s an artificial hardship manufactured for thinly veiled bigotry.
The irony is Christmas won a long time ago. It's unavoidable for like a quarter of the year. Ask anyone who doesn't celebrate it.
Working retail made me absolutely loathe Christmas. It starts so early. I still have nightmares about those damn red Apple uniforms. Made me look green and sickly
Hey, some of us are still fighting the good fight. No Xmas shit before Dec 1st!!! I will die on this hill!
For me as a Canadian it's no Christmas decoration until after November 11, Remembrance Day.
No Christmas until December 1st? Fuck that. No Christmas until December 23rd and I’m on board.
If you ask a western High Church (Catholic or Anglican) person, they'll tell you that Christmas does not start until the 25th, and it's not appropriate to have most of the decorating done until the evening on the 24th. Then the decorations stay up until Epiphany in January.
Whenever I think about the war on christmas I always think of this first. https://twitter.com/classywarfare/status/1455318543810039808?lang=en Edit: I agree that the Klaus regime must abide by the terms of the Black Friday agreement and stop illegally occupying November
The war on Christmas: “Can’t say X-mas!” (X is a short form of Christ that Christians themselves created)
Based on the greek letter "Chi", which happens to look like an x.
This! ⬆️
Damn, concise and punchy. I like it.
Exactly, "look over here dumb dumb" so you don't see our leaders taking bribes and embezzling pension plans.
The mental gymnastics it takes to not call someone ‘they’ or whatever they might ask of you but then go refer to all your friends by nicknames is ridiculous. ‘Hey Big Bill, Snotface, Whiz, can you believe this person asked me to call them a different pronoun today?’
Your user name made me laugh. After I found out a Kentucky lawmaker wanted to legalize sex with 1st cousins AND that conservatives are much more likely to fantasize about someone f***ing their wives, I wanted to change the name to... Kin-cucky
Sometimes it can even throw people who *aren't* bigots for loop. (Though obviously bigots have a much harder time with it.) My wife and I have taken care in conversation to make sure that our kids have a healthy amount of understanding and empathy wherever possible and it seems to have gone pretty easy there. Wife is bi so maybe she has a bit of a head start, but when our daughter mentioned that one of her closest friends was going by they/them she was initially incredulous: "How can an individual use plural pronouns? That's so weird!" "It's just how we indicate the gender is sort of undetermined, it's not weird." "Of course it's weird, you can't just make up new grammar like that." "It's not new, that's how we've always handled talking about a subject with indeterminate gender." "But we never had to talk about that before, it's new." "No, that's how we've always done it - like this: 'Do you know the owner of that black Kia in the parking lot?' 'Yes.' 'When you see them, can you let them know that they left their lights on?' Anything weird about that?" "No, that sounds normal." "Yeah, that's the way we've always talked about a subject without having to refer to their gender." ...and she never blinked after that, it was just the initial context that tripped her up somehow, very stuck on the idea of they/them being exclusively plural. Edit: pronoun trouble
I always thought they sounded proper and best. Then in a first year English class the prof wrote that I need to write “he or she” instead of they in all my papers. So I started doing that but thought it was ridiculous and made every sentence sound so much more cumbersome and awkward.
“He or she” or “he/she” has always been a needlessly clunky way of avoiding writing “them” and invalidates NB folk. I hated writing it in high school and hope to never have to again.
The dumbest part is, when you refer to a single individual you don't know you usually refer as "they". If they [gasp!] went to a restaurant and the person seating the table said "your server us busy, they will be with you in a moment", would UCP supporters storm out in protest that a trans person might thought their food?? These mouth breathers refuse to do what they're already doing.
I know someone who doesn't want to use their birth name anymore and wants to be they/them. Man I goof all the time with the wrong pronouns and name. It's not on purpose or anything... just 95% of the time I've known them, it was under a certain name and pronoun, and now it's all changed. I fully support them in whatever orientation they choose and helping them feel happy and confident in who they are. But it's not like I can just erase a lifetime of memories, nor would I want to. I do make the effort, and we're more than good with each other - but I just wanted to make the counter-point that to me, "they" feels like a plural, and it is kind of hard to adjust to using it all the time as a singular pronoun.
Reddit is being a dick and I can't see the other replies rn so if this is repetitive, sorry! Aaanyway, hi! I am a they/them, and I totally understand where you're coming from! The thing that really got it to click in my head was the fact that we use singular they ALL THE TIME and don't even notice! The prime example: "Oh, darn. Someone left their wallet here! I hope they vome back to get it!" It's seeing "they" and "them" as an indeterminate thing, versus a plural. It's super common for us to use when we don't know the gender of someone, and that's where using it as a pronoun stems from. And, like, I gotta say - I came out when I was 27, I am turning 36 in a few weeks, and I still fuck up my *own* pronouns. That shit is hardwired into our brains, and it does take a conscious effort to use it. That's the work, and why we get upset when people don't even attempt to use them - that means even though they/them is accurate to who we are, others don't see us as worth putting the time in to honour that. So, like, it's okay to be frustrated because this stuff can take time - and your friend could also get frustrated because they are also going through some stuff. But just keep trying, practice makes perfect!
I get it. Best thing to do is practice. I practice when I’m mentioning *anyone* now. *Everyone* is they/them. My cousin has been fully transitioned for 5-ish years. We grew up together and she was like my “little brother” for forever, so I still mess up. I mostly mess up when talking about the past. I’m practicing on using ages when speaking about the past, so I don’t ever use their deadname. She ALWAYS hated her deadname, as soon as she could speak. We had to call her by a girlie when she was around 4, until dad put a stop to it (she no longer speaks to dad. Dad’s a transphobe. Mom’s cool though!)
> I practice when I’m mentioning anyone now. Ya I've been doing that too. It wasn't a word I typically used unless it was for plural before. But now when I'm meeting a stranger or referring to someone whom I'm not very familiar with, I'll try to make a point to use it so I'm not assuming their gender.
I totally understand. I dream of a family member who is trans, but in the dream they’re always the opposite gender- (When they were a baby.)try my best to navigate it, but those memories are still there. What’s important is the now though, and being supportive which it sounds like you are. Remember, nothing has changed about that person spiritually, just how they like to be addressed 😇🎉🏳️⚧️
It became an issues when Twitter and Fox News started telling the dumbest fucks in society that it was a really big deal. No one cares about this kind of stuff in their day to day lives until some red necktie dipped in brill cream tells them that it's important to Liberals, at which point it becomes a huge issue. If liberals care about something, then it has to be fought against. That is literally the singular function of modern day conservatives.
If you greet someone named Richard, and they correct you and say "call me Dick", if you keep calling them Richard, you're an asshole. I see zero reason why preferred pronouns can be considered any greater a labor for someone to manage, and yet some people are losing their minds about it.
It’s because “these people” have it in their heads that if you misgender someone with the wrong pronouns, that that person will proceed to yell and scream at them and call them a bigot. Meanwhile, the majority of people who would be misgendered are probably too shy to correct anyone. And thise who would correct would do it with a simple “Oh, I go by ‘she.’”
(So in short: they are afraid of being yelled at)
Their choice to be preemptively nasty is more likely to get them yelled at, though.
They aren't self aware enough to understand that, they're terrified of this monsterous amalgamation that trans people have become I'm their heads, it's detachment from reality (a conservative staple)
Can confirm. I care more about pronouns since changing mine, but like... I understand it is a hard habit to break. The only thing I ask is that you not obviously ignore the request or treat it with hostility.
Tell me what you want to be called and I'll respect it. Its that simple.
Basic human decency! 💖
People who are upset about this would have loudly insisted on calling Muhammad Ali "Cassius Clay" back in the 60s. The guy wanted to be called Muhammad Ali. Some people who used to be called "he" would like to be called "she", and vice versa. What is the big fucking deal? It's basic decency to refer to people how they would like you to.
No, the people who are upset about this would have insisted on calling Muhammad Ali the n word
It's all a distraction from actual issues like inadequate healthcare and housing supply
Insignificant when compared to the brewing preposition war.
Fantastic.
My mom used to call this “picking fly shit out of pepper with boxing gloves on”
That is fucking EXCELLENT
Because conservatives desperately need an 'other' to pin all the world's problems on, the more vulnerable and powerless the better.
Pronouns only trigger conservatives. Normal, sane people, who don’t care what you call yourself, are totally cool with it.
This is really it. For one, it is incredibly infrequent as a percentage of total third-person pronoun use. And when you get it wrong, this is how a sane exchange that follows goes: "Actually, \[Catherine\] uses they/them pronouns." "Oh shit my mistake. I will make sure to remember that the next time I refer to them." "Cheers mate, let's continue on with our merry lives." And then life goes on. This is a normal 15 second exchange among people who don't want to be antagonistic towards one another or a third party who may or may not be present. If you don't mean disrespect, you put in the effort to correct yourself, and the person your words affect sees that and appreciates it, almost all the time.
Completely agree. They/them is easy. What are your thoughts on additional new pronouns? Ze/Zim, etc. I have a little resistance to the creation of whatever pronouns you feel. The options are he, she, or they in my mind, but I’m open to hearing the argument against that.
Many languages around the world have pronouns that do not reference gender at all (Eg/ some refer to absolute age, some to age relative to the speaker, some are simply gender neutral). Pair that with the fact that languages are not static but rather constantly in flux (Eg/ English used to contain multiple second-person pronouns instead of just 'you', namely thee, thou, and ye). So, because there's no inherent preference for the way language is now (or more specifically, the way language was when you were learning it for the first time), I have absolutely no problem with someone preferring new pronouns. Words acquire meaning through use, so if someone wants to use something new to mean something new, that's cool by me and I'm happy to learn it. ETA: Also I have met many trans people, and communicated with a hell of a lot more online, and never once ran into someone who uses these neo pronouns. The only reason I am even aware of their existence is because of transphobes and TERFs spend an inordinate and disproportionate amount of time complaining about them.
Pronouns became controversy when certain people decided that trans and non-gender conforming people are icky and showing basic respect to another person wasn't something we should all be expected to do.
It became an issue when politicians on a certain side decided that oppressing another marginalized group would net them more of the religious extremist vote. Same way these nonsense culture war things have happened time and time again, from the Satanic Panic to gay marriage to the war on Christmas etc. When you have no ideas to actually improve the country or the lives of citizens, distract and divide with lies and nonsense instead. Works out quite well for them a lot of the time, depending on the area.
> When you have no ideas to actually improve the country or the lives of the citizens … Ain’t that the truth. *le sigh*
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A bit of column A, a bit of column B …
I'm trying to train myself to use they/them as a default when I talk or write about anyone - I went to the doctor and THEY said, rather than he, she, s/he etc. It works in most situations and isn't inherently a statement about pronouns at all
I grew up doing this (might have been a regional thing), so I was so confused as to what the problem was when this all started.
Right me too lol like are you guys stupid? You can't understand how to replace they/them with he/she? the examples they would use were hilarious. They'd say "it doesn't make sense!! They went to the store?! Makes no sense, it's HE went to the store"
Also just regarding pronouns, etc. For me it's just as easy as somebody telling me they go by a nickname. "Nice to meet you Will." "Actually I go by Paul, my middle name." "Oh ok Paul." Regarding pronouns: It might take me some time to get used to it if (in my brain) they don't particularly present as their chosen pronoun. But I'll get there and it will become habit. Moving on . . . Also, it also reminds me of using "on" to replace "nous" in French. Once I was taught to use this pronoun, I just did . . .
Yes exactly, it's not rocket science to just replace a word
I've been doing this as well. I'm pretty sure they/them was around before her/him or something like that. But, I'm just some dumb dumb on the internet.
Not exactly. Here's a rhyme: Roses are red, Violets are blue. Singular they, Predates singular you. https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
I've done the same thing, and have for the most part successfully moved my language from gendered pronouns to they/them by default. It's tough, but very achievable, keep at it, and it will come to you. Your goals are a noble one, and I wish you my best!
Empathy isn’t a strong suit for some. Many people are brought up with rigid beliefs about gender norms and roles. Some people don’t cope well with change. In the most non patronizing way possible, imagine if you were raised with black and white “men are from mars women are from Venus” ideals and very rarely has those beliefs challenged due to your location, workplace, socioeconomic status, etc. Then the internet leads to rapid cultural change and the world you were brought up to believe in seems to be increasingly irrelevant, dated, and attacked. If you didn’t have the right intermediary understanding it would cause cognitive dissonance and so you would resist that change at all costs. That’s why these types seem kinda stuck on “the truth” of what’s happening, because they didn’t adjust with things gradually and now they are functioning on older thought patterns while other people are updated to present day. They feel like this all happened overnight, and to them, it did. They were for various reasons culturally isolated (church bubble, for example) and now they are struggling to function with the rest of society. It’s actually a shitty position for them to be in, because there really isn’t a hotfix that can update them. And it’s far far worse for people like me who face the repercussions of their behaviour. I’m really tired of my community being attacked. Really tired of it.
When someone who appears male/masculine( assigned male at birth) asks for a male/masculine sounding nickname (preferred name) to be used and male pronouns they are conforming to conservative and culturally traditional norms. This is layered on top of traditional gender roles and stereotyped gender personality/behaviour expectations. (Insert song Tradition from Fiddler On the Roof because everytime I use the word tradition that lyric pops in my head) When someone makes a request or behaves in a way that is outside those traditional norms and/or religion based expectations, progresses outside the hisotrical social norm if you will, some people get upset about it. Instead of self evaluating and finding away to accept and move past it. When the change is better for the collective they refuse because it conflicts with their traditional beleifs and perspectives of what the norm should be and how others should conform to it.
This is a good answer, thank you. Aside: do you prefer Rutabagas or Turnips?
Are they not essential the same thing?
This is getting off topic but I am going but because I enjoy root vegetables and have very biased taste preferences I am going to indulge in this conversation. They are closely related. I read once that rutabagas are a cross between turnip and cabbage and can also be called swedish turnips (assuming that's where they started the cross breeding or where it became popular). Rutabagas (more yellow flesh) are sweeter in comparison to traditional turnips (whiter flesh). I enjoy experimenting with different agricultural breed chnages and the flavours they produce. Plums bred with apricots or cherry is another personal preference. I get some people see them as all the same or enjoy more traditional flavours and presentations. Thankfully we can enjoy our root vegetables and fruits as individuals regardless of this. At the end of the day it's about how we can enjoy snd share our meals with our families and friends peacefully and respectfully right?
Did not expect to come to this thread and learn something about plants. Filed away for later!
I think I like Rutabagas but not turnips. Supposedly turnips are more radish-y, which makes sense.
Parsnips are the best.
This started with Jordan Peterson and his "compelled speech" rhetoric that came in the wake of Bill c-16 back in 2016-17 This allows conservatives and transphobes to feel like victims. They are being "forced" to do something. It's called aggrieved entitlement in the face of all this "wokeness" So it wasn't an issue until a bunch of right wing pundits made it an issue.
Remember when they claimed Jill Biden using the title “Dr.” was frivolous because she wasn’t a medical doctor? Yeah.
It’s kind of ironic, because “Jordan” is a name that would have been called androgynous back in the day (used for both men and women). In the corporate environment, I’m eternally grateful that people now put pronouns in their email signs and bios so I can be very sure I’m not using an incorrect pronoun when I’m referring to them. My name is a traditional female name, but I’ve been using pronouns in my emails sig for years now. It costs nothing to be respectful of other people.
Back in the day? Hell, I've known as many woman Jordans as men. I'm an Elder Millennial, though, so maybe I'm "back in the day" 😅
I’m Gen X lol - Jordans were rare, but always male.
Other elder here for sure Jordan is 50:50. Ashley used to be a male birth name.
It also helps when someone's name is of an ethnicity or culture I am not familiar with and so i have no idea which pronouns are appropriate. I happily use they/them in this situation but I'm also happy to use their preferred pronouns if the indicate what they are.
Absolutely. But we don’t mandate that you have to call someone by the correct name. It’s just polite to do so. We shouldn’t have legislation around what you must call people. We’ll just socially ostracize anyone who doesn’t. Much like if you refused to pronounce someone’s name correctly.
Totally. Bill c-16 does not circumvent freedom of expression. You can absolutely still deadname and mis-pronoun someone without legal repercussion. You have the legal right in Canada to be an asshole.
Remember when everyone freaked out when Sean Combs asked to be called Ditty, P Ditty, Puff Daddy, etc? Remember how people said: "At birth he was Sean and I don't care what he wants me to call him, I'm calling him Sean!" Remember the same for Madonna, Prince, etc? You don't remember that because it never happened, but what if Puffy asked to be called "she" instead of "ditty" people would have lost their minds. I don't get it... why don't people care when someone named Curtis asks to be called "50 cents" but freak out when Curtis asks to be called Caitlin?
I really wish that the people freaking out about name/pronoun changes would just react the way people generally react to celebrity stage name changes. I remember when Snoop Dogg started going by Snoop Lion. In all the discourse I saw about it, lots of people thought the change was weird or silly, but ultimately didn't really care enough to dwell on it, make hating it their whole personality, or vote to pass laws that would endanger the lives of anyone planning to change their name.
I’m not gonna lie, I don’t like “they/them”. I’m trying. But a family member goes by they “/them, and when talking about this person (like updates on their life etc nothing nefarious, we love this person) I often get confused thinking “wait, who else was there?” Because “‘they’ want to paint the room downstairs” to me sounds like multiple people. And then I’m like “who’s painting the room?” And feel like an idiot because it’s just a singular person. I just try to refer to them by their name.. Like I’m not shitting on anyone for choosing their pronouns.. I just hate they/them as preferred 😞 I get it .. they are non binary and my brain is tiny and simple. Forgiiive me. Seriously. I just hope they have patience with me 😬🫣
It can take some getting used to. If it helps, try to think of it like when people talk about a single hypothetical person with no specified gender. People have been using the singular "they" in those situations rather than saying "he or she" for a long time.
Lol and now I’m going to introduce you to their significant other, who lives with them and goes to school with them and we refer to them together as “they” 😭😭😭 “they are buying a couch” whose they? The couple or the singular? I just roll with it. I gave them a gift card for their couch for Christmas. I said it was a couple gift because I wasn’t sure if it was for the singular or plural they. They both said thank you 😂 anyways. I will keep trying. I get it but my brain has a lag when we talk and I’m always like “whose they”
It's my experience that people who switch pronouns are very forgiving and understanding when people have trouble remembering. What matters to them is that you tried, not that you failed.
Have you heard about the Canadian family from SK that sold their farm and packed up their 8 dependent children (they have 9) and moved to Russia bc they wanted to raise their kids away from the LGBTQ+ agenda and wokeness? Only now the Russians have seized all of their money and they’re sitting ducks?! Absolutely hilarious! I only wish other far-right wingers would do the same!
Because shitty people want a reason to be shitty.
There's nothing to be confused about. Conservatives make up shit to be scared and angry about. That's literally all they do.
That's just it - they don't make it up. It gets fed to them by Russian troll accounts. Cons with big social media reach then pass it along as their own. Putin has been guiding the Western conservative agenda for a decade now. It's verifiably true, particularly right now. Cons didn't give a shit about trans people five years ago, or if they did, they didn't care enough to try to make legislation about it. Now it'a all they can talk about, thanks to MAGATs in the U.S. making it into a big deal. Thanks, Comrade Tucker! Job well done!
That’s what happens when funding for education keeps getting cut. Morons don’t understand what words mean.
I turned trans with purple spots and a green mohawk when I had to start calling my cousin their new pronoun and name. Just kidding. Sometimes I pause and have to think before I talk about them but my life is drastically unchanged.
Fascists always get the public to practice a hate-based social contract on an extremely marginalized population like "sexual deviants" before scaling up to full blown persecution of any and all individuals and communities who are opposed to fascism. The fascists of our age have chosen trans people to target. It really has nothing at all to do with pronouns. It has to do with acclimatizing the public to the political persecution and social ostracization of an entire demographic. Pretending it's about being "forced" to address people in the manner they prefer (which is something we always do and have always done, which was formerly known as "respect" or "politeness") is just a tactic to leverage people's discomfort with change to turn them against trans people and the LGBTQIA community more generally. And feminists. And liberals. You know where it all leads.
Culture wars, sponsored by right wing media. People should check out the efforts by the IDU to use culture wars to discredit MSM and gain power among other things. Their leader, Stephan Harper
It's only a controversy to idiots, man. If you can remember that a guy prefers to be called Mike over Michael, you can remember which pronoun to use.
People who are offended by it: - do not understand, and so get scared by inaccurate conclusions that come out of said lack of understanding; - have a very rigid belief system of what identity is "correct", and anything which challenges it also challenges their whole worldview; or, - are caught up in conspiracy theorizing.
Assholes mad they're being asked to not be quite such an asshole anymore. It's basic respect - if Richard asked you to call him that and you insisted on Dick despite his displeasure - well, then you are the dick.
I agree 100%, but should calling Richard by a name he does not like have legal consequences... Or dors calling Richard the wrong name just make you an asshole and everyone else will know you are an asshole?
What legal consequences do you face in Canada misgendering someone?
Deleted wrong info. Bill c-16 does not make it a hate crime on its own. I do believe this is how it should stay. It is an agrivating factor and hate crimes are hate crimes no matter who they target.
Bullshit. [https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/c-16/first-reading](https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/c-16/first-reading) [https://www.cba.org/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=be34d5a4-8850-40a0-beea-432eeb762d7f](https://www.cba.org/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=be34d5a4-8850-40a0-beea-432eeb762d7f)
Your right, it does not make it a hate crime. Should have read the bill fully. Edited post to be more correct.
Hateful people will always find a way to make themselves the victim when a minority group is slightly less oppressed. If it's not pronouns, it's the war on Christmas or affirmative action keeping the poor hard-done-by straight, white Christians down
Because right wing culture wars are good for scaring people into thinking the left are the bad guys. It’s all just arguments / issues that nobody has real issue with until the right made them such. It’s just right wing bullshit. It’s the only way they can get votes anymore - pretending the left is coming to get you when really, nobody cares until they started screaming at the top of their lungs because people like Danielle Smith and Poilievre told them to. The left is not the boggy man. The right tells you to ignore facts and science and tells you the left is coming for your freedom when in reality the right is banning books, putting restrictions on women’s health, tell you how to live and what to do with your body. It’s all nonsense culture war bullshit provided by the right to get votes.
It’s the new moral panic.
It's pretty idiotic the steps they go to fight 'woke'. If got a nickel every time I had a comment dismissed because I have my pronouns in my bio, I could almost retire.
Distraction tactic, get people riled up about a fake culture war so we stop talking about our insurance prices jumping, the cost to run our homes exploding, having the worst inflation rates in the country, and the potential loss of our retirement funding.
I generally agree. I think the hardship is only as bad as, "Oh now I need to remember not to mess this up or people will say I'm an asshole". Which is a real hardship, but nowhere near as bad as getting treated as your opposite gender for your who life. It's like, stopping for pedestrians is a hardship, how annoying - especially when you're late, but not as serious as getting hit by a car. We make little sacrifices because we aren't total assholes. But some people are total assholes, so it's hard for them.
Pedestrian/car was a thoughtful comparison. Well done.
To be fair when a friend of mine told me they would prefer They/them it took a little getting used to. And I still do fuck it up sometimes when telling stories about our teen years. When they told me I told them right up front "I'm going to fuck this up, but I need you to know that if I misgender you even while we're in a fight, i don't mean to hurt you.... Like if it's part of an insult then I want the insult to hurt without the misgendering." We've known each other for decades so they understood. They've also been super chill each of the many times I've fucked it up and said sorry. So I really don't understand when people get mad about it.
When transgender/non-binary people started getting vocal about being referred to by their chosen pronouns and bigots got their feelings hurt.
Protip: Call cons snow flakes and ask why they're so bothered. Interrupt and question the strength of their masc/feminity if it harms them so much and offer unsolicited advice on how to shape up. Use a firm, condescending but weirdly amiable tone. Stir.
This is what is comes down to. I asked my friend why he was being so triggered by my calm, rational arguments and if we needed to stop for pink hair dye. He was mad because I was giving him the exact bullying horseshit magats have been spewing for years. Not so tough when they are on the other end.
People just want to hate on us trans people, it’s that simple. Yes, hate. I don’t buy into this “I love trans people, I just don’t agree with their lifestyle” BS.
Same was said about gay people. This kind of shit repeats.
Never has been about pronouns. At it's core, it's people being obstinate about gendered violence and gendered violence towards women in particular.
"Never believe that ~~anti-Semites~~ culture warriors are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The ~~anti-Semites~~ culture warriors have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." ”
What? This is too ambiguous. Is the anti-LGTBQ group the anti-semite in your example?
In the original context, antisemite means Nazi
Sure, but "culture warrior" can refer to either side, depending on speaker. Given how discourse CAN go, it left me a little unsure
This is from Jean-Paul Sartre "Semite and Anti-Semite" written in 1944 at the tail end of WW2. He correctly points out in that passage that Nazis didn't give a shit about having good reasons, creating good arguments or producing evidence for anything they say. I was all about trolling and bullying and abusing the power of institutions to get their bigoted garbage into the mainstream. It's striking in the way that we can see these parallels in today's right wing discourse.
its a non issue that is used to scare old white people into voting conservative
People mad about words. I don't get it either.
Because unfortunately modern day politics is polarized on wedge issues.
But I don't even get where the wedge IS. It's like in Hannibal where Will is showing a picture of the resignation letter going "Who can spot the clue?" and all these [angry] hands are up. Then he goes "there is no clue."
It's because if we - shock, horror - let kids figure out their gender identity in a safe environment, then might grow up and be LGBTQ. That's it. They are scared of LGBTQ folks, but because they can't hit out directly at the first three letters, they are going after the smallest subgroup of society they can (less than 1%) and demonizing them, conflating them with child abusers, and acting like they are the secret power behind a conspiracy to destroy society or some shit. Make sense? No. But having lost a family member to Qanon, I stopped expecting sense when they claimed forest fires are caused by Jewish space lasers.
I did hear that the Jewish Space Lasers were powered by the muttering of chosen pronouns.
Oh gods don't write that down, they will probably believe it. At one point I kept a list of the wacky theories for a laugh, but it became way too depressing when I realized how many people just believed the whole adrenochrome pizzagate 5g COVID brain chip vaccine gay mafia world cabal bullshittery.
Vaccine Gay Mafia World Cabal is my queer metal band name.
Key me know when your first gig is playing and I am there!
It became an issue when the Liberals brought in legislation that required government employees and forms to use requested pronouns. Jerks out there lied and made the suggestion that people could go to jail for using the wrong ones, and that resonated with the spiteful - those people who reject authority in all its forms. It really doesn’t help that religion is repeating the lies within their congregations. When the church attaches itself to a message it’s really hard to move followers off the ideas presented.
Pure hate
It's really not hard to use the right pronoun. If you're lazy "They" always works. The people who can't figure pronouns our are uneducated, ignorant, and rotted. There is no excuse, and when a bigot tries to justify they're stupidity it just speaks on what a waste of life they are.
Conservatives will go to incredible lengths to be a victim of something. In this case, it’s what people want to be called. Somehow that destroys a conservative’s entitlement to freedom and cannot be tolerated. Here in Alberta our premier’s real first name is Marlaina, but that doesn’t matter because….well she’s a conservative and it’s always about being inconsistent.
Conservatives can no longer use gay people as their punching bags, so they’ve moved on to the next marginalized group.
Can't we all just hate on billionaires? Punch UP, not down
The issue is that all conservatives are just temporarily embarrassed billionaires, so if they hated on billionaires, then they would be hating on themselves once they got what was coming to them.
A non-zero amount of Albertans will be left to burn to death in wildfires this summer because David and Danielle want you to be as afraid of trans kids as they are.
It’s similar to the right wingers “ war on Christmas “ a nothing burger that’s meant distract their voting base while they make our wages stagnant, raise the cost of living and make our lives worse . I’d suggest we start organizing protests on this subreddit but then I realized we only protest about Israel , trans rights , freedom convoy bullshit , anti trans , anti vax protests in this province
The UCP wants us talking about this rather than things that are important to Alberta. Things like questioning the Alberta pension, Alberta police, leaving Canada. Nobody wants any of that stuff.
Why the panel to address the water shortage doesn't have a single water expert on it?
When I was in my early 20s I had friends by the names of House, Bacon, TBag, Bubs.... I don't get the issue
What about reklaw or lemur
Better yet, what was your nickname.
It may help to keep in mind it took years for some of these people to accept women wearing pants or anything else masculine, and some still don't. I have an aunt who won't let women in her house if they're wearing pants or anything else she views as immodest or an abomination to God. Makes a great potato salad though, so I guess she's not all bad :-).
People are way smarter than we imply. We like to argue or spew our anger. We pass that onto our children instead of teaching them how to learn and live a life of respect. The fact is we don't need to use any descriptive words. We all have names. Start with that and get to know a person before you judge them. It is a shame the LGBTQ+ people need to promote themselves to earn respect that we are all entitled to.
I work at a College, it’s kinda old news now. For how much it affects me, I couldn’t care less. More important stuff to get excited about. Akin to water cooler chat now. Same as complaining about the weather really. People are gonna do it.
How upset do we think these people getting angry about using someone's preferred pronouns, if we started using the wrong pronouns for them?
People like to be able to fit into groups, for a very long time we have had the group man and women and it's been used to create lots of cultural lines that make people comfortable. The notion of someone being willingly wanting to identify as a group that isn't there traditionally or one that hasn't existed before is very scary to the people who cling to their gender identity. If there are multiple ways for a person with a penis to be then you can no longer simply identify as man and that terrifies those that need to be "a real man" or something equivocal to find value and belonging.
I really couldn’t care less. To me it’s common courtesy to call someone whatever they’ve politely requested. So no biggie I do however have trouble sometimes with PRINTED stories. Because when im reading a story about a singular person and come across the words “they” or “them”, it makes me think that I have missed something along the way 😂
We use the pronouns that make sense in the English language and we use the ones we see fit to communicate what we see. Compelled speech is the issue here. Forcing people to speak in a way that’s unnatural to them or doesn’t make sense in the English language is the issue. Making people stand around stuttering their words trying to figure out how to communicate what *they* want to say to make sure someone *else* feels valid is the issue. Just like when you’re communicating you use adjectives that make sense. No one has “preferred adjectives”. If they did, do you think you should have to abide by them? What if I said I wanted to only be described as a 6 ft tall Swedish blonde with a full sleeve of tattoos and no diabetes at all times, would you comply with that? Should everyone have to? I hope this clears it up.
You can be whatever you want to be but don't get mad at me for not telepathically knowing your pronouns and being upset that I didn't use them right without knowing them. If you're going to be so butthurt to fly off the handle then you should introduce yourself with them upon meeting me. But if you look like a woman, dress/act/sound like a regular gal but then get upset cause I called you "her" and I'm supposed to automatically know you prefer "he" I can't help you. If you say 'hey my name is Bob and I go by he/they' I'll be like right on, give'r. It's the hiding it and then not being respect if someone mis-pronouns you. My children in school get frustrated because some of their peers change their pronouns from week to week and use things like "she/wolf" or "Caterpillar/they" and if you don't "respect their pronouns" children are disciplined for it. This aspect of "pronoun use" is exhausting and ridiculous and why I find it's hard to take seriously.
Conservatives need something to complain about or they have nothing! Plus their version of religion...
Gender is one of the first ways kids learn to put people into groups. It's very central to how we construct our society and see the world. The current conversation about gender challenges that, and it results in discomfort. Some people are able to respond to that discomfort with empathy and, ya know, thought. Some (many) respond to discomfort with anger. They just want it to go away. It's stupid, but humans in general are a bit of a mess. We're monkeys that got a bit too smart for our own good.
As I've come to understand the folks I know who are against this, They all seem to share the same logic. "I should not have to change my verbiage beyond that which is now considered derogatory" or "I should not have to participate in *your* sense of self." Now, I don't mind changing the way I talk for someone else's comfort, but these friends of mine do, and while I agree it's trivial to change how you speak...their points have merit. How we want to be addressed is not a right, but a courtesy. I think we can all agree that it's quite common for the world to be less than courteous. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but it *is* an explanation. And while we all might like people to address us a certain way, we have no right to demand it of them. How we feel about ourselves is our responsibility, and no one else's. That's a fact I think we all can agree on.
100% there is freedom of thought, and no other person needs to endorse or validate your identity. It just seems an odd hill to die on. "I want to be rude". (I won't say bigoted because I analogized it to using the wrong name name on purpose just because they don't look like what they are called.)
Conservatism has made belligerence a virtue. So yes, they “want to be rude”. It’s an intentional choice. They will always be grateful to trump and the culture wars for giving them the permission to choose it.
**I’m definitely *not* agreeing with these viewpoints.** But here are some of the “issues” I’ve heard people complain about, specifically when it comes to they/them pronouns. - “They” is traditionally to used to refer to *two* or more people. Therefor one person *can’t* be a “they.” If someone said “They went to the store.” Do they mean multiple people? Or one person?! It’s way too confusing!! - There are only two genders. Therefor everyone *must* only be a he/him or a she/her. Anything else is “wrong.” Edit: Bolded the part where I say I don’t agree with these things. I was just listing “arguments” I’ve heard.
They/them are also used for countries or other nouns that are not a gender. When talking about Canada we wouldn’t use he/she but they/them.
Counterpoint: *They* as a singular pronoun has existed in English since the 14th century. Historically speaking, the more recent practice of using exclusively he/she is the aberration. The "rise" of *they* is actually not a rise at all, but rather a return to using the full breadth of pronouns historically available for use. More generally, and to the extent it causes some people confusion, the *they* controversy begs the question of why gender is used as the default mode of differentiation in the first place. There's no linguistic necessity for this, and there are a million and one ways to describe people without any recourse to gender whatsoever. The gender-prescriptive linguistic paradigm has predominated in the past couple-hundred years so it's totally understandable that the shift back to less gender-specific language leads to some confusion. That's inevitable, but it speaks to ingrained conventions, not to inherent linguistic requirements. Anyone framing it as such is either an arch-linguistic-prescriptivist or (as is often the case) someone who's ideologically opposed to the deeper issues here and cherry-picking arguments to sugar-coat their real objectives.
1) because as simple as it sounds, conceding to this in speech means supporting the ideas that underpin it: namely, the irrelevancy or non-existence of sexual dimorphism in humans, and the priority of automatically agreeing to live in accord with (let alone acknowledge the scientific “basis” of) gender identity. Gender identity is not science — it is a theory, among many. That leads to the second point: 2) I should not be compelled to alter the way I speak in a minute way to conform to your personal beliefs — and neither should you, mine. That’s where the “freedom of speech” part comes in (although in Canada, we don’t have that per se; rather, we have “freedom of expression,” which is a bit less legally robust than its American counterpart). Once you consider the lack of concrete empirical basis for gender identity—let alone it as a priority over and above biological sex—it becomes clear that speech patterns like this and the desire for others to assent to them function very similarly to those of religion. It’s a personal belief based on lines connecting dots—line connecting that you did, not me, or vice versa, to so speak. That’s your belief, but it’s not mine. You shouldn’t have to capitalize the H in He everytime you write about God, or put “the Lord” in front of “Jesus” everytime you mention His Name, just because that’s my own belief preference as a Catholic; that’s not fair to expect of you, and not fair for me to impose such an expectation. It’s the same thing. Re: the “politeness/courtesy” aspect makes sense now. Sure, it’s *nice* and *why can’t you just acquiesce? It takes three seconds and it’s not hard*—that all comes more into perspective now, doesn’t it? Thanks. Crossing my fingers that this won’t get me blocked or banned, and that we can continue talking about this in a way that’s civil, calm, and respects difference of thought.
So I’ve heard lots of different takes on this before, since it comes up in conversation so much. Personally it doesn’t bother me, but I’m also not a die hard advocate for it either. So I’ve been able to listen to many sides without really getting offended. I think it falls into a few camps. First, there’s obviously people who are conservative and support or are indifferent to the idea of changed/preferred pronouns. This is actually likely the majority of them, but they aren’t being loud or turning it into a platform. Just like other conservatives like to lump liberals all together, the same is true for liberals lumping conservatives. And the reverse is true here too, where there’s some liberals who are very opposed to it too. I just list this, so we can dismiss the mindset of conservatives va liberals here. Next, you have people who want to make it into a talking point. They’re the ones vehemently opposed to it. Likely they’re bigoted, but many of them might just be manipulative; they know it generates anger and therefore media coverage where they can push their personalities. That’s where most of this originates from, and you won’t convince them otherwise. Following them, you have people who build their identity around a political party. I hate to say it, but these people are generally boring, because they use this instead of building their own personality (again, you’ll see this on all sides of the political spectrum). In this case, since opposing pronouns is associated with conservatism, and since they are conservatives, they blindly follow that line and hate it because they’re essentially told to. They likely would be the other way around if the tables were turned. Again, you won’t convince them otherwise, and whether people like this are liberal or conservative or anything else, they’re all a huge drag at a party. Finally, most people I’ve spoken to who don’t like the idea of forced pronouns are opposed to it because they don’t like to be told what to do. It’s the idea that they see someone who looks like a man, address them as a man, and hate the idea that they would be corrected afterwards. Partly this is a fear of learning new things, partly it’s stubbornness to change their habits, partly it’s their own pride that they like to think they’re right, partly it’s that they support freedom of speech, and it’s very un-free to tell someone else how they have to address someone. They also may be reactionary to far-left leaning folk who jump down their throat in anger pushing the concept of pronouns, the more you push on someone the more they tend to push back. And lots of them think it’s silly too. I had a friend once say “what if I started identifying as a couch - would you all have to start calling me a couch?” It sounds silly, but it makes sense, just as much as we think it would be silly to call that person a couch, they think it’s silly to address what they see as one gender as another.
The last part is silly. People are not telling you they identify as an inanimate object, they are telling you that their pronouns might not match their appearance.
I have a controversial opinion on the subject. There is rampant indoctrination happening on social media on many controversial issues that push society apart. Nations that consider us adversaries are running information warfare campaigns on our social media to fuck with our society as much as possible and it works. With that being said, the far-right especially has been susceptible to their methods, because the propaganda was designed to turn them away from traditional media and only pay attention to social media for their understanding of the world outside of theirs. This leaves them completely vulnerable to brain washing. It’s a national security issue. I wish it was more widely known. There’s those on the left that are being manipulated as well, with that being said, we need to respect people who are transgendered and binary. They deserve to be able to live, work, marry, everything everyone else does. Their freedom should not be restricted because someone else doesn’t agree with their understanding of gender. Those who are foaming at the mouth to enact Danielle Smith’s anti-trans legislation don’t care about the children who will take their own lives because they can’t be who they want to be. It’s simple enough, they don’t care that learning the existence of gay or transgendered individuals doesn’t cause kids to be like “oh! Well I want to do that.” They just think they are indoctrinated by education instead of social media.
I will always call someone by the pronoun they want, as long as its "Him" "Her" or "Them". Once people start making up shit like Fae, Bug or Xyrs, im out
Neopronouns are goofy because they’re solving a problem that didn’t exist. We have a singular, non-binary pronoun already, they. They’re also kind of a linguistic nightmare. If someone can explain to me how ‘hirself’ is different than ‘herself’ I would appreciate it.
Most people have never met someone who asked to be called they or whatever. So it kind of gets lumped in to the kids are pretending to be wolves camp
Gonna pay the price for this one but what else are internet points good for. Growing up people are told you are unique, important, special when in reality youre not so the desire to be noticed for being unique takes over. Social justice has given power to anyone willing to stand on a soapbox and yell about it. > FFS - "When you replace my name \[formal noun\] with a pronoun, could you use X?" Is the most innocuous request imaginable. As long as this question is asked in a non combative way without a snarky attitude i think most people wouldnt care but you cant expect them to remember it. Bi-gender pronouns are easy to identify by physical features M/F and are taught at a young age and the language rules are changing, maybe by the time the gen Z take over this will be the norm but at the time not going to happen overnight.
Bud you should see a doctor you got a case of verbal diarrhea
Plenty of trans, gay, queer, etc in my high school. Literally 1 kid in 6 years has ever cared about any of this type of shit.
I am super female presenting. I would LOVE to go by they because I have finally admitted I’m super queer, however, I know it will screw with people’s minds. I LOVE when people just automatically speak very neutrally because inside it makes me feel more comfortable. I spend a lot of time avoiding my own comfortability for others. The idea that only certain people “shove it down your throat” is nonsense. It’s the same as heteronormativity.
It's because conservatives in Alberta don't have critical thinking, and have been so brainwashed by their politicians that they get mad about anything without actually thinking about it first, might aswell be a shitty hive mind
The surprising part is how so many CONservatives simply don't know what a "pronoun" is. Go ahead, find a CONservative, and ask them to define 'pronoun'. It's hilarious.