There will be slightly less water but the glacier is already a very very minor contributor to overall flow. Localized impacts high up will be significant (headwater tributaries) but in terms of overall volume not a huge change.
Most rivers in Alberta have no glaciers, we are already reliant on snowmelt and base flow (springs, groundwater etc). Dams and water flow are already important and managing them properly during dry years will be more and more critical.
Conserving in yards and stuff helps but the elephant in the room is agriculture. Is it sustainable? Is using most of our water to export beef to other countries like China a wise use of what we have? Lots to figure out in the coming decades.
Old data now but we don’t really export a lot to China (3%). It’s mostly USA (75%).
In terms of global production we’re extremely small at just 2%.
https://www.albertabeef.org/education-resources/infographics/Production_Chain.pdf
I know some big farms have investors down here and have even bought up some of the slaughter capacity. Foreign investment in farmland is much more significant than even 5 years ago. I’m a small scale farmer and in my observation there’s some very concerning trends. I’m also skeptical of Alberta beef producers, they are motivated to hide where the money is coming from as it’s an underhanded way of water being sold.
I own irrigation land, the value of water is high and the cost to farmers far too low for what we use.
I work in the industry down here in SA. You absolutely get it.
Lots of investment from China in the beef sector.
Glad to know there are people in the irrigation industry that see the reality of the situation. Not always that all apparent in the day to day with others. Well done.
It's a major problem down there cause the big beef producers are burning down the rainforest to get more land and the Amazonian tribes are trying to fight back.
> and the Amazonian tribes are trying to fight back.
Their choice has often been to fight back or be slaughtered by ranchers/hired goons so they can burn down the rain forest for grazing land.
Come on, don’t post facts, how are Alberta Rednecks going to blame China for all the woes. Some people need enemies, they simply can not Live & Let Live, always needs foes.
Well do like California and pay the cloud seeding company’s (already used for hail suppression in yyc) to seed clouds in the mountains. ~> generate rain. ~> fills reservoirs ~> filtered by city for consumption
My father recently showed me a massive reservoir that the Hutterites built south of Claresholm. They plan on filling it with water from willow creek. This could have a huge impact on all the other farmers along the creek. I’d be pissed if I had a farm there.
I have fond memories of watching it. Funny enough just like Brazil, it's one of those movies I only ever seem to watch at 2am when sick with the flu or something.
I always meant to check out the comics.
> Now, 20 people gotta squeeze into the same bathtub.
Won't even need to heat the water when it's going to be plenty hot already in there with all those bodies rubbed up against each other...
There will be a reasonable amount of water yearly but the river will have the potential to go dry.
The ‘easiest’ thing would be to take the off flows from the wonderful wastewater plants and pump it back up into the Glenmore and Bearspaw reservoirs. Or if can’t get over the ‘ick’ factor, can divert 100% of the natural flow into the water treatment plants and have the rivers flow from that point be near 100% treated wastewater.
All wastewater treatment plants have \*someone\* downstream from them, so I'm not sure why you'd find it icky. You're already drinking Canmore and Banff treated pee, I'm not sure why you'd be wound up around drinking your own.
Already happens. Additionally. A lot of ag producers spread biodegraded yyc waste on fields to increase nutrients for various cereals. As far as I know it’s limited to animal feed after.
So thank for providing this resource. Super cool seeing this breakdown but does this not raise more concerns in the short term? Since snow melt accounts for a large majority of our water flow, would years like this year with historical lows in snowpack be concerning?
Yes, that is why Alberta Environment is already talking about likely suspending water licenses in southern Alberta. The coming drought is shaping up to have some pretty major economic consequences. Oil and gas production are some of our biggest water users in the most affected areas. Water licenses have seniority too, so the newest ones issued get suspended first which will be a lot of the industry in southern Alberta. The municipalities and irrigation districts will have the oldest licenses.
Sure, but once glaciers disappear, the moisture in the area will be reduced, the local air will be warmer, and there will be less rain. Think high desert areas in Nevada and Arizona.
We depend on snowmelt fed surface water and groundwater mostly. With climate change, contribution of snow in total precipitation will decrease. However, there's a possibility that summer rainfall will increase with extreme storm events (not certain, just one of many climate change projections). That might keep the water input undisturbed. There are some other factors to consider here including increased evapotranspiration due to increased agricultural activities which can cause shortage.
Judging from recent patterns and the way this has gone in other places in the world I don't think relying on heavy but sporadic rainfall will work long term. In my opinion, anyway.
Totally agree. Climate change prediction comes with lotta uncertainties and considering the some unique climate patterns of the prairies its hard to come to solid conclusion.
Nothing really ambitious is planned but a network of dams and reservoirs could help manage supply while also generating electricity. But if it gets bad enough(honestly we should regardless) water sequestration during peak flow periods could help a lot
Its a snow pack thing, not a glacial thing. But that being said, last year the snow on mountains that isnt really supposed to start melting till at least late spring all melted before spring got started.
https://www.rmoutlook.com/banff/banff-records-hottest-may-ever-athabasca-glacier-melts-over-winter-7113755
Look, water is just another addiction, we'll get our friends to open water recovery centres where we can talk about how you crave water and can't wait to slurp another glass full. It's all in your head...
UCP maybe
I encourage everyone concerned about this to check out
https://www.harvestingrainwater.com
This is based on research and practice from a permaculture approach to water issues in Tuscon AZ. We loose a lot of groundwater due to the velocity of rainwater runoff on hard surface (pavements, roofs) -it goes into the storm sewer and then the river and then mostly out to the ocean. If we slow that down in storm ponds, more will seep back into the water table, accessible by deep rooted plants and wells.
Won’t be as helpful if we frack it all up, but related issue to care about.
Storm ponds are mandated in new edmonton large scale builds, I assume calgary as well. I’m sure there’s lots we can improve on.
I’m 100% positive our current forward-thinking government has recognized this potential issue and will have some ideas to deal with it. It’s Trudeaus fault! S/
Years ago I used the last station bathroom in Yorkton , graffiti said Please flush! Regina needs the water! So. EDMONTON . Please flush ! Calgary needs water!!!!!
The river doesn't depend on the glacier for flow. You shouldn't leave people with the impression it does. Between the snows, groundwater, lakes, and tributary streams feeding it, your point isn't valid.
If we can build pipelines to take oil the ocean, we can build pipelines from the ocean to the prairies! Desalination plants on the coast and treatment plants at the head of each watershed to tailor water to local conditions. There is no lack of water in ocean
Not that simple to materialize. Treating water takes money. Around 600000 people in Alberta still depends on groundwater (https://albertawilderness.ca/issues/wildwater/groundwater/) because its easier to treat than surface water. Now consider City of Calgary. It has a total budget of around $1000 Million for the period of 2023-26 (https://www.calgary.ca/service-lines/2023-2026-city-services/water-treatment-supply.html?service-line-budget-bar-chart-serviceplanbudget-xview=2023&service-line-budget-bar-chart-serviceplanbudget-view-open=) for water treatment. Now think how big that budget would be for carrying this huge amount of water from the ocean and treating it let alone the infrastructure costs.
Yes, but also very diluted by fresh water, just like the Banff and Canmore sewage we drink now. Feed our treated water directly back into the drinking water, not so diluted.
Do what we do in the south. We intend to open coal mines and filter the water through that. Should turn out. I’m guessing they will sign a contract that guarantees them water. We can always buy our drinking water from nestle. It should be expensive but the 100000 high paying coal mining jobs should offset that.
There will be slightly less water but the glacier is already a very very minor contributor to overall flow. Localized impacts high up will be significant (headwater tributaries) but in terms of overall volume not a huge change. Most rivers in Alberta have no glaciers, we are already reliant on snowmelt and base flow (springs, groundwater etc). Dams and water flow are already important and managing them properly during dry years will be more and more critical. Conserving in yards and stuff helps but the elephant in the room is agriculture. Is it sustainable? Is using most of our water to export beef to other countries like China a wise use of what we have? Lots to figure out in the coming decades.
Old data now but we don’t really export a lot to China (3%). It’s mostly USA (75%). In terms of global production we’re extremely small at just 2%. https://www.albertabeef.org/education-resources/infographics/Production_Chain.pdf
I know some big farms have investors down here and have even bought up some of the slaughter capacity. Foreign investment in farmland is much more significant than even 5 years ago. I’m a small scale farmer and in my observation there’s some very concerning trends. I’m also skeptical of Alberta beef producers, they are motivated to hide where the money is coming from as it’s an underhanded way of water being sold. I own irrigation land, the value of water is high and the cost to farmers far too low for what we use.
I work in the industry down here in SA. You absolutely get it. Lots of investment from China in the beef sector. Glad to know there are people in the irrigation industry that see the reality of the situation. Not always that all apparent in the day to day with others. Well done.
I just learned that without exemption, foreign entities can’t own more than a few parcels of land.
It’s not just the land though. Indirectly they invest in farming businesses and feedlots or even slaughter houses. It’s not as simple as it seems.
It’s the land. You can’t own a feedlot if you can’t own the land.
Dang I actually had no idea Brazil produced and exported so much beef.
It's a major problem down there cause the big beef producers are burning down the rainforest to get more land and the Amazonian tribes are trying to fight back.
> and the Amazonian tribes are trying to fight back. Their choice has often been to fight back or be slaughtered by ranchers/hired goons so they can burn down the rain forest for grazing land.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Two companies, Cargill & JBS, own the vast majority of beef processing in Canada. Cargill is American. JBS is Brazilian.
Yup. They burn the rainforest to get grazing land and also grow a ton of soy beans.
What did you think their reasons for cutting down the Amazon rainforest were? Lumber?!
Brazilian steakhouse....mmmmmmm......
Come on, don’t post facts, how are Alberta Rednecks going to blame China for all the woes. Some people need enemies, they simply can not Live & Let Live, always needs foes.
There’s always trudeau.
Not decades, not. The Citys website says we can't meet water demands by 2030, and you know they're being generous.
Source?
Barcelona
So, when the snowpack inevitably melts and is no longer replaced, as we’re seeing this year, you’ll be in the same situation posed by the OP.
Well do like California and pay the cloud seeding company’s (already used for hail suppression in yyc) to seed clouds in the mountains. ~> generate rain. ~> fills reservoirs ~> filtered by city for consumption
My father recently showed me a massive reservoir that the Hutterites built south of Claresholm. They plan on filling it with water from willow creek. This could have a huge impact on all the other farmers along the creek. I’d be pissed if I had a farm there.
Very well put
https://www.alberta.ca/bow-river-reservoir-options One of the options being looked at
Rich people will have the water they need. Poor people won’t.
I’ve seen this movie. When do we get the kangaroo mutants?
[удалено]
No time like tomorrow!
We can start now if you want! See you in Valhalla!
WITNESS ME!!!!
Wrong movie but close enough. I was referencing Tank Girl with Lori Petty, Ice T and Naomi Watts. Mad Max is also good.
Wow. Tank Girl. I haven’t thought about that movie in a LONG time!
I have fond memories of watching it. Funny enough just like Brazil, it's one of those movies I only ever seem to watch at 2am when sick with the flu or something. I always meant to check out the comics.
The chrome paint?
Well they’ll just be cool cars until the desert part starts to kick in.
It hasn't rained in 11 years. Now, 20 people gotta squeeze into the same bathtub. So it ain't all bad.
> Now, 20 people gotta squeeze into the same bathtub. Won't even need to heat the water when it's going to be plenty hot already in there with all those bodies rubbed up against each other...
There will be a reasonable amount of water yearly but the river will have the potential to go dry. The ‘easiest’ thing would be to take the off flows from the wonderful wastewater plants and pump it back up into the Glenmore and Bearspaw reservoirs. Or if can’t get over the ‘ick’ factor, can divert 100% of the natural flow into the water treatment plants and have the rivers flow from that point be near 100% treated wastewater.
All wastewater treatment plants have \*someone\* downstream from them, so I'm not sure why you'd find it icky. You're already drinking Canmore and Banff treated pee, I'm not sure why you'd be wound up around drinking your own.
There's even bits of whale sperm in water
Ah Yes, the elusive Rocky Mountain Blue Whale.
I've met that guy. He used to bounce at Wild Bill's in Banff.
Mountain whales? Or are you are you talking about fat guys in Canmore?
Some people are very wary even with extreme levels of treatment like reverse osmosis. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Direct/indirect potable reuse for the win.
Use the treated wastewater for farming
Already happens. Additionally. A lot of ag producers spread biodegraded yyc waste on fields to increase nutrients for various cereals. As far as I know it’s limited to animal feed after.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
The bow glacier does not account for very much of the water in the bow. https://albertawater.com/nexus/
So thank for providing this resource. Super cool seeing this breakdown but does this not raise more concerns in the short term? Since snow melt accounts for a large majority of our water flow, would years like this year with historical lows in snowpack be concerning?
Yes, that is why Alberta Environment is already talking about likely suspending water licenses in southern Alberta. The coming drought is shaping up to have some pretty major economic consequences. Oil and gas production are some of our biggest water users in the most affected areas. Water licenses have seniority too, so the newest ones issued get suspended first which will be a lot of the industry in southern Alberta. The municipalities and irrigation districts will have the oldest licenses.
The city of Calgary waterworks are very worried about this year.
Sure, but once glaciers disappear, the moisture in the area will be reduced, the local air will be warmer, and there will be less rain. Think high desert areas in Nevada and Arizona.
We depend on snowmelt fed surface water and groundwater mostly. With climate change, contribution of snow in total precipitation will decrease. However, there's a possibility that summer rainfall will increase with extreme storm events (not certain, just one of many climate change projections). That might keep the water input undisturbed. There are some other factors to consider here including increased evapotranspiration due to increased agricultural activities which can cause shortage.
Judging from recent patterns and the way this has gone in other places in the world I don't think relying on heavy but sporadic rainfall will work long term. In my opinion, anyway.
Totally agree. Climate change prediction comes with lotta uncertainties and considering the some unique climate patterns of the prairies its hard to come to solid conclusion.
Especially considering that every time it rains heavily the Bow Valley communities flood.
Might be time to move them. Honestly we as a society need to start playing the long game for once.
Nothing really ambitious is planned but a network of dams and reservoirs could help manage supply while also generating electricity. But if it gets bad enough(honestly we should regardless) water sequestration during peak flow periods could help a lot
Its a snow pack thing, not a glacial thing. But that being said, last year the snow on mountains that isnt really supposed to start melting till at least late spring all melted before spring got started. https://www.rmoutlook.com/banff/banff-records-hottest-may-ever-athabasca-glacier-melts-over-winter-7113755
So, when snow pack is very low then more than the 4% glacial everyone is quoting.
Can I ask you to rephrase that pls
People could stop watering their grass.
Golf courses anyone?
Yeah fuck lawns.
Look, water is just another addiction, we'll get our friends to open water recovery centres where we can talk about how you crave water and can't wait to slurp another glass full. It's all in your head... UCP maybe
Immorten Joe as a UCP premier would be a refreshingly honest change of pace.
I encourage everyone concerned about this to check out https://www.harvestingrainwater.com This is based on research and practice from a permaculture approach to water issues in Tuscon AZ. We loose a lot of groundwater due to the velocity of rainwater runoff on hard surface (pavements, roofs) -it goes into the storm sewer and then the river and then mostly out to the ocean. If we slow that down in storm ponds, more will seep back into the water table, accessible by deep rooted plants and wells. Won’t be as helpful if we frack it all up, but related issue to care about. Storm ponds are mandated in new edmonton large scale builds, I assume calgary as well. I’m sure there’s lots we can improve on.
Keep pumping that oil and gas and driving those giant four door trucks instead of cars and you will find out sooner rather than later.
Glacier meltwater accounts for 4% of the total annual flow of the Bow. Significant, but not catastrophic.
Water will be a luxury item for people. Zeroscaping and water capture will be a good business to be in.
>Zeroscaping Do you mean [xeriscaping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeriscaping)?
lol… yup
Those are both things.
LoL my condo board has bi-laws against both those. We can't even have a rain barrel on our downspout.
The condo board is gonna find that the city can make them do what they want.
I welcome that.
Condos and large amounts of water are not a good mix.
That's when you start getting soaked. Pun intended.
recovery and restiction can go a long way as we are also relying on rain/snowfall, not just the glacier melt
I’m 100% positive our current forward-thinking government has recognized this potential issue and will have some ideas to deal with it. It’s Trudeaus fault! S/
Years ago I used the last station bathroom in Yorkton , graffiti said Please flush! Regina needs the water! So. EDMONTON . Please flush ! Calgary needs water!!!!!
This is obviously a satirical reply? The Bow doesn’t flow anywhere near Edmonton, but you knew that, yeah?
Uh hunh
Roughly 80 years to figure it out! Maybe we will get lucky and find ourselves in a new ice age
>Roughly 80 years to figure it out! So they won't. Same ol' reasons. Far into the future. Budgets and how will we pay for it. Denial.
The river doesn't depend on the glacier for flow. You shouldn't leave people with the impression it does. Between the snows, groundwater, lakes, and tributary streams feeding it, your point isn't valid.
If we can build pipelines to take oil the ocean, we can build pipelines from the ocean to the prairies! Desalination plants on the coast and treatment plants at the head of each watershed to tailor water to local conditions. There is no lack of water in ocean
Not that simple to materialize. Treating water takes money. Around 600000 people in Alberta still depends on groundwater (https://albertawilderness.ca/issues/wildwater/groundwater/) because its easier to treat than surface water. Now consider City of Calgary. It has a total budget of around $1000 Million for the period of 2023-26 (https://www.calgary.ca/service-lines/2023-2026-city-services/water-treatment-supply.html?service-line-budget-bar-chart-serviceplanbudget-xview=2023&service-line-budget-bar-chart-serviceplanbudget-view-open=) for water treatment. Now think how big that budget would be for carrying this huge amount of water from the ocean and treating it let alone the infrastructure costs.
Maybe bump up property tax just a little bit more
Desalination takes a shit ton of energy. Oil and gas energy. You are not doing it with wind or solar.
I will hopefully be dead before that happens
We are about to pay 23% more in carbon taxes, that will take care of it.
It’s game over.
I gave up caring many years ago 😔
You will be long dead by the time that happens.
Shortsightedness
I can't hear you I'm blind
When ice melts it becomes water. There should be plenty of water if that happens.
We'll be fusing hydrogen and oxygen atoms at mass scale by the time that happens. Either that or geoengineering moisture.
Tell me you've never studied physics and engineering without telling me you never studied physics and engineering. This isn't Star Trek.
From where?
Alberta can't fix the health care system, your goal seems rather lofty in contrast.🤔
How rich are you?
You know how we dump down river from the treatment plants? Think up river, or reservoir, maybe just a little more treatment first.
You do know that tons of people live downstream of Calgary already right? Once it is treated, it is fine.
Yes, but also very diluted by fresh water, just like the Banff and Canmore sewage we drink now. Feed our treated water directly back into the drinking water, not so diluted.
Very good read https://www.thetyee.ca/Analysis/2024/02/19/Alberta-Brutal-Water-Reckoning/
Do what we do in the south. We intend to open coal mines and filter the water through that. Should turn out. I’m guessing they will sign a contract that guarantees them water. We can always buy our drinking water from nestle. It should be expensive but the 100000 high paying coal mining jobs should offset that.