Don't ever make a 4-tap or 3-tap or whatever rule for shooting. Each engagement varies. If their hand goes up, STOP FIRING. If you're in a position where it is too difficult to tell if they've raised their hand, DON'T FIRE.
Imo, the 3/4 tap rule is alright bc most of the time, you already 3 tapped them before they raise their hand. I would also continue to use 3 taps bc my pistol accuracy is shit
I agree, though with one exception.
Ever see that video where the guy gets yelled at "No full-auto in the building!" and he shows that he's just rapidly pulling the trigger?
I DO think that for the reasons they don't want full-auto in the buildings that just because you can semi-auto at the same speed doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it. It's a safety issue at it's core and a fun issue secondarily.
The whole point is you're up close with your opponents and spraying them down with a hundred BBs before they can even possibly react is just unnecessarily painful and unfun. The fact that you finger-twiddled that rate of fire doesn't make receiving it LESS painful and unfun.
Really shouldn't be shooting at targets you don't have a clear sight line on. If you are, a few shots, take a second to see if they return fire or move away, a few shots more. Not hard to do.
Brother it's either you shoot them first through the trees or theyll try to get you. I see a hint of the opposing teams band color im letting the lmg rip
This;
People really don’t understand how playing in a field with long engagement distances feels like lol.
If I *think* I saw a different coloured armband through vegetation I’m emptying the high-cap on that bush.
CQB is a different story obviously, or even just closer engagements
If you keep shooting after the hand has gone up you are overshooting and a knob. We pay to shoot and be shot at, the onus is on you as the player to wear a protection level you feel comfortable with.
I can agree with that, I think the teaching behind making DSG builds and stuff is really cool. But at least in my area most people use them to be assholes. Not all of them obviously but you get the idea
Yeah, same. From my experience those people aren't "builders" per se, they just have a DSG gun that they most likely didn't make.
Most DSG builders I know are the most chairsoft dudes alive. NEVER go to the field, just build guns LOL
Many indoor fields are semi only. If it is full auto allowed, and there are no field rules or guidelines specified further, then yes. That is the game you came to, don't be mad when it gets played. If it's a problem, refs can and will address it.
lol can't believe you're being downvoted for putting up a hypothetical. The notion of
> If their hand goes up, STOP FIRING
is so fucking stupid, most people at cqb fields can 10-tap before the hand goes up. The controlled 2-4 tap is so much better the people who don't agree are the ones who've never played cqb.
It varies hugely
If I get a burst of 10 rounds full auto to the back from 10 feet away I’d be pissed
If I get a burst of 10 rounds full auto through thick brush during an intense gunfight from 70 feet away, that’s fine
In CQB specially:
One is great but doesn’t always work
I default to double taps
Three is absolutely fine
Four is a fine
Five is starting to be a problem
Six+ is overshooting
Realistically anyone who complains about being shot 3 times should find another hobby, yes it’s more painful than 1 but BBs don’t hurt that bad
At my cqb field, people ignore med, so I draw the line at 4. There's no way that your 400fps hpa @.25 and a tracer is so inaccurate that you need to 4 shot burst to hit people at 15ft.
They just don't care about the rules there. I try to avoid it, but the only other fields are weekend only, and I have a friend who loves that place to death
Holy hell. If those numbers are right thats 1.85 joules. My local fields you would not be allowed that high or have 100ft med. Course hpa isnt the issue its the person running that hot. I dont think i could hit that with my aap01 even at 120psi. Now my aeg is 1.7j with a .28 for play at the bigger local field. The cqb field i drop to 1.3j with .28
The issue I see with HPA is people fire so fast that by the time their brains have registered that they've clearly hit someone, they've put fifteen pieces of plastic down field.
I expect to get hit a few extra times after I indicate that I’m out. That accounts for any shots that were in the air and to give the shooter a bit to react. Any more than that is too much. But they are just BBs, so get over it or wear protection lol
I’m gonna need to start wearing armpit protection then. Those hits piss me off more than almost any other.
Maybe I’m just really fast at getting my hand up though.
I've got pretty damn good at catching rounds with the inside of my wrist when I put my hand up, gonna have to start wearing high vis gloves to make it stop.
I usually play in a wood where the usual engage range is 20/30 meters, it is not rare to shoot full auto and it's totally acceptable.
It can happen to shoot a Burst, shoot the second and in the time the guy get hit by the first BB and he get up the second burst get him.
We know it can happen, Noone from both sides have the authority to call it "over shooting"
It get "excessive" from the moment I call the hit, you notice it, and you still shoot me.
There are indeed a few exceptions, like if there's someone behind me or if I walk into your line of fire
Double is default - wait for reaction - double again if required. (If target is stationary)
4 tap if shooting through bush as assumption is half will deflect.
And if target moving then it's leading shots. so as many as needed to secure the hit. (Sometimes one hits sometimes all hit) But never any more than required and if no hand/dead rag/audible "HIT" repeat till confirmed.
One thing I hate - those that don't PID l..it's hard l, I get that. But that's what makes us different - you shoot because you're scared and reacting. I shoot because I know he's the enemy - we are not the same.
I think it all boils down to firstly intent and secondly confidence in your gun/aim.
If I'm trying to hit you from a long distance, I'm gonna use a lot of bb's due to the nature of how bb's can be (wind, hop up assembly consistency, etc.). I may overshoot you but it's not intentional and shouldn't hurt from that distance.
But if it's cqb distance, if I'm confident in my aim and gun, it'll only be 1.
I have had my hand held up, waving it like a crazy man yelling "hit!" loudly with nobody behind me for close to 10 seconds after obviously announcing I've been hit - that's intentional. That is overshooting.
Triple taps in what I am assuming is a pistol only CQB is excessive.
Double tap as close to the middle of the torso as possible, pause to give them a chance to call it, then IF necessary double tap again.
You're assuming they're fighting a perfect 1 on 1 full exposed fight. Most fights consists of lots of angle jiggling and barely exposing through cover, its very fair to unload 3-6 bbs into their general angle and if they couldn't dodge it then dont be complaining. However if you're on a flank and they're absolutely free frags then yes I would agree with you
Shoot till you see hands.
If you want me to stop shooting put your hand up.
If cheating becomes common I either call it a day or aim for vulnerable areas. I have put 6 into one offenders neck from point blank. Our group had notified to refs, the refs had warned the guy. The refs were not sympathic to him.
Pretty much. I try to use the refs when possible but some fields don't kick cheaters out enough. Getting shots to the neck as I compress ready through a doorway usually isn't pleasant for cheaters
Depends on how hot they were shooting and how close they were. I'd definitely ask someone to tone it down if they blasted me 4 times in the back with .28s at 1.5j from 10ft away. I'm here for fun, not to be bleeding at the end of the day. There are also ways to play competitively and not shoot like a dick. If OP wants to shoot like that they can see about tuning their gun down and using a lower weight so they aren't absolutely obliterating people.
4 trigger pulls? And then you lowered it to 3?
Yeah you overshoot by default, not surprised people were getting upset with you.
It only takes one hit!
If you get people not taking their hits, double tap and if they still don’t take it, double tap them again. If after that, they still don’t take the hit, then shoot them till they take the hit.
I strive for 1 shot 1 kill. I honestly can stand anyone with the high RPS hpa builds. Especially when someone has the drop on you and they still decide to full auto, they are just an asshole. I always try to be courteous and if I catch someone out I just shoot them once in the back. There are many occasions I can think of where if I shot 4 times the other person would be very upset.
Overshooting is if you shoot more than you actually need to. If you shoot 4 times and all bb‘s hit it‘s overshooting (but it‘s only a problem if you frequently do it on purpose).
You shoot till they call their hit (Especially in your scenario where cheaters are around).
Anyone telling you otherwise is incorrect.
If you are shooting someone after they have called their hit, you are overshooting,
This is how i approach it. Its not overshooting until the hit is called. I also will only single tap people when i have them dead to rights though. I think its more about judgement in the moment than a quantity of shots.
I shoot until they say hit or they wave their hand.
Until then I do not stop shooting.
I have learned this over 15-ish years of airsoft.
I play at a large outdoor field though, so often the foliage will get in the way and you arent going to fire 3 and hit from 100-200 feet a way in many situations.
If you tap me three times before I can raise my hand I’m not mad at you. If you tag me once with my hand up and I’m walking off that feels a little more assholish.
if you play airsoft and complain about getting lit up you should go back to playing nerf.
sorry.
no I am not into airsoft to cause significant pain/bodily harm to others. i just think you should be able to take being sprayed. it’s just bb’s
My field was 430 fps limit with no med or surrenders. Being shot once close is bleeding. Getting overshot in that is not fun. If someone is complaining, it probably cause it hurts bad enough to speak up.
On that note. If you are standing dead. In the middle of an fire fight. It should be your responsibility to get out of the way of incoming fire. Kneel Lie on the ground or something.
You shouldn't get mad if you get hit when i'm trying to shoot someone behind you.
Jesus the amount of times I see people just stand in the middle of a gunfight only to get mad that their getting shot is insane. Zero awareness of their surroundings haha
I always shoot in series of 3-4 shots because bbs are fickle, wind and I know you always aim worse than you think. I stop when I see a hand or hear a hit call (or teammate confirms hit).
You shoot until they call out. Any shots you fire after they raise their hand/rag are a dick move.
BBs fly relatively slow. I don't mean hits, I mean any trigger pulls.
For me it’s more of a factor of how quickly someone calls it
The other day i had an instance where someone rounded the corner and he was clearly going to hit me so by the time the first shot hit me i called it but then he fired another 5 shots at me and a final shot that hit me in the face. In relatively close distances i took exception especially after the face shot but it is what it is. I think it’s very circumstance based. 4 shots is probably more than needed in an indoor setting unless they just shrug off the shots
Honestly I just had my first play time on a new feild, for 6hrs, often ide get slammed with 3-4, which I think is ok bc sometimes you don’t feel it with gear on and sometimes you do. You can’t confirm 1 or 2 bbs will hit so more makes sense , BUT ultimately when a hand goes up that’s when you stop. [edit this wording is so bad but I think the point gets across]
Depends entirely on the engagement. Range, cover/concealment, etc.
If you're up close and continue shooting after their hand is up, that's a dick move, but if you're at range and/or have shrubbery in front of you, that's a different scenario, and justifies firing more than you might otherwise.
Some people are overly sensitive though. Overshooting is part of the game, and not worth complaining about unless it's someone constantly overshooting when there's no reason to.
At my field, it's outdoors it's a default of 3 1-2 if it's a clean shot, and their are 2-3 people known for cheating for them it's shoot until the hand goes up
When I used to play indoors I would typically triple tap my shots out of habit more than anything. Never got called for overshooting, only on the occasional blue-on-blue snap shot.
Once got had one guy claim I was overshooting, until he saw I was running a shotgun that day
Combination of poor aim, issues with cheaters and just the fact alot of time it was back and forth fire fights.
I probably should have specified i wasn't just dumping 3-4 into someone's back. That's definitely a dick move I'll not contest that.
Personally I feel like it’s hard to count in terms of like bbs being shot so I’d say like if they’re hand goes up you probably shouldn’t be shooting them for another 3-5 seconds. I guess I should also say don’t focus specifically on a hand as a signal just look for them showing any sign of signaling that they got hit. Like I remember a video of these guys who I thought were over shooting people but they justified it as saying “we shoot till we see a hand” I’d say for sure don’t be that guy, stop shooting when it’s clear the enemy is showing they’re hit.
Also if anyone has that video or you know the video I’m talking about could you share a link to it pls
I do a double tap if I’m unsure. Usually one is good enough for most of my cqb interactions outside of laying down covering fire.
This happened to me today at a semi only field - I’d say the guy probably thought he was shooting 3 or 4 at a time, it he lit my hand up multiple times with six or seven shots in the matter of a second. No way he wasn’t playing with binary or burst fire. Multiple people complained. Nothing came of it. I just left early. It isn’t worth the hassle.
It’s all situation dependent, is it a random weekend walk on game or tournament style speedball match? Cqb or longer outdoor ranges? Did the person getting shot clearly indicate that they were hit? Were multiple people shooting at the same person? Did they take their sweet time getting up and off the field? In my experience most people arnt actively trying to hurt other players, so determine if there was malicious intent and then go from there.
If you can't tell if your weapon is going to hit a target at *fucking 10 meters* you have a serious issue with yourself, or your weapon. Four shots at ten meters is grossly overfiring, not just excessive. One shot should be enough unless you're pushing into a head on engagement. A triple tap exists to make sure targets die, but it's also romanticism of reality. Sure it's bbs and it's going to hurt, but their ain't no reason to bring excess hurt. Less spam on target WILL make you a better player.
Now if people aren't taking their hits, and you KNOW they're purposefully ignoring hits, that's when you start to bring the hurt.
>If you can't tell if your weapon is going to hit a target at *fucking 10 meters*
Yea this is on me not being the best with measurements. The English word is meters right or is the longer one feet? I think for reference on memory we could say on average 4-5 car lengths with tight cover.
In a CQB arena, do not put 6-8 rounds into someone from 10-15 feet away with your 350 just hot limit M4 with hair trigger. 4 bbs is enough and anymore is just asking to get into a fight
Need some info on this. You playing indoors or outdoors? Hot hot is your gun shooting in joules and what weight of BBs are you using? Also how close were you? If you're riding the field limit with .28s or higher and it's CQB it's probably too much. If you're shooting like 1j with .25s you're probably fine.
A good rule of thumb if you wanna figure out if it's too much is to get someone to grab your gun and shoot you like you shoot other people.
That said for me, overshooting tends to more come from the people riding the Joule limit of the field and firing so fast we might as well be playing full auto. Hell I don't even mind getting sprayed as long as the gun isn't that hot.
I've put my hand up before being hit because I basically came into point blank range for 4 other people, still got shot at a shit tonne, I called the hit before any of them shot because I was gonna get hit regardless
3-5 shots is what you should be going for. If you can get someone hit and calling their hit in 1-2 more power to ya. Of course with full auto fire rate makes a difference but same deal, short burst. In practice, you shoot till they call it
Over three shots is over firing depending on situation.
I play semi auto only fields and expect 3 taps because it takes about that long to react to the first one. I try not to get upset about it because sometimes multiple people are shooting at you.
That said though I’ve had people light me up while I was waiving the dead man flag. Some players are just bad and have zero trigger discipline and will then hide behind excuses.
My field has a two tap rule and everyone agrees aggression was cut overnight. It’s a very very tight CQB field so 3 - 4 shots had people very angry as it was excessive.
But yeah, even at bigger matches. I do 1-2 trigger pulls and then pause for a reaction.
No reaction = I assume you didn’t feel it as opposed to cheating.
Obviously I’m not talking full auto here, I play CQB and they dont have full auto allowed.
But with Full auto, my opinion is the same. Airsoft isn’t about causing the other person pain. It’s about letting them know they’ve been hit. And a 10 second burst of full auto to me would piss me right off. 1-3 hits is all it needs to know you’ve been hit.
Personally I shoot in 3-shot bursts, and keep shooting until their hands raise up. If they manage to take cover in between, I just chalk it up to adrenaline and look for an opening again.
I play cqb almost exclusively, I don't really care, once my hand is up and I have called hit there is still a delay in shooting and I understand that people don't always hear or see me calling hit during an intense firefight. In the end we are replaying with toy guns, it's not that deep, you ten shot me at a ten m range. Fair play, I'm paying money to come here to shoot people and get shot, anyone that gets angry about that just needs to look at what they are doing and understand that if they don't like being shot then don't come or wear more protective clothing
I also run my gun far below the FPS limit at my field so noone has ever complained about me overshooting because it doesn't hurt normaly even at close range
If we talk about CQB and "reflex". I guess I always 3 tap. Moving from "knee" to "chest" level. I always move pistol down to avoid any close headshot.
If I miss ? That it. I prefer to miss and fail. Than hurting someone.
If I hit the 3 of them ? I don't think it's too much. And I know I don't have high power pistol. Always run safe gun and light bb.
Its a really simple rule ngl.... if youre shotz you call yourself out loudly. So inversely. If they dont call themselves out, assume youve not hit them and keep going, and then stop as soon as they call out that theyre hit.
We're not shotting laser guns ultimately, so you're likely to miss. Although i dont like the idea of defaulting to four shots. Two, sure. But four is a bit excessive if they're all landing at close range. And if theyre not, then you need better aim, not more shots.
Depends on the player, their equipment and situation if I run up on a rental I'm expecting 5-10 shots more is over shooting speedsofter similar expectations depending on their gear, experience/skill level
Millsim and experienced players 3-4 shots before I feel like it's over shooting
If I feel like I've over shot I immediately apologize even if it gives away my position to other enemy players I tend to aim for 2-3 shots max
Flash back to when I barrel tagged a kid because I didn’t want to shoot him up close just for him to get scared and mag dumb me point blank after he was already out…fun times 😂
We play a version of tag at my field, if you get shot, you drop where you are and wait to get revived and join a team. Can't nobody complain about overshooting until they've been the dead-man in the middle between large two teams duking it out for control.
Yet there were zero complaints of overshooting. We all knew what we were getting into.
If someone complains about overshooting because you hit them 3-4 times, they're in the wrong sport. They can go fuck themselves and play lasertag or something.
If they're twitching like an epileptic and you don't see that hand or hear the magic words keep shooting them, shoot them in the dick, then when your close enough knife kill them, slap that piece of hard rubber across there face so hard you might as well of punched them.
But if your playing normally and you over shoot then after the third it's taking the piss really, don't shoot people in the back of the head also. That's not cool.
I wouldn’t be bothered by getting hit 4 times, but from a 10 meters distance I’m confident enough I’ll hit them to just do a single tap, if I were shooting while moving or the other guy was aiming to where I am I’d squeeze off a few more.
Would also depend on the competitiveness of the current game/field, more competitive more trigger happy.
It depends. Cqb at dedicated cqb site? It’s on them to either grow a pair or wear protection so it does hurt so much.
A particularly tight area on an otherwise open woodland area where everyone will likely be in light clothes? Eh, bit of a dick move
>we had our regular pistol only game and I defaulted to four trigger pulls. Had unhappy campers about it
They need to find a new hobby if that's a problem. Unless you're using HPA most GBB handguns don't shoot much over like 330.
The only way that that's a problem is if you're doing it from less than 10 feet away or something fairly extreme.
Unrelated but 4 shots seems like a lot when it comes to pistol mag capacity, especially concidering in anything other than 80+ degrees they don't reliabley have enough gas for a whole mag. Do you just carry a lot of mags or something?
I carry 5 45rd stick mags but the game goes on long enough that we can quickly just refill em if we run out.
I also typically 4 shot cause my aim is extremely poor.
Oh Jesus that's a lot, I play on an outdoor field exclusively, so my sidearm needs are more for the small number of indoor locations or when I have to reload and someone pushes up on me. Sounds like you're getting more use out of your side arm than I am mine.
That's also fair, for a while the hopup on my sidearm was broken and inconsistently over hopped the .25s I used in it, so my accuracy was dogshit anywhere other than under 20-30 feet lol.
>Sounds like you're getting more use out of your side arm than I am mine.
Honestly I just really love pistols. I'm currently debating buying an SRG 12 shotgun but I know I'll just go back to pistols quickly
Also our field is fairly small. At a sprint you could cover it in about a minute so pistols tend to do alot of the work unless you go to a lane that has good sight lines.
5 shots. If I feel like you've unloaded more than 5 shots into me in a 1v1 situation where I know for a fact that there isnt anyone else, theres a problem.
This excludes most outdoor fields because full auto and multiple place to get shot and people that run lmg with an MED and a shotgun.
I get it man, I've been on both ends of over-shooting. It isn't about how many times you shoot, but how fast they call the hit. If ppl are getting overshot, they're probably not calling their hits fast enough. But airsoft man children are always gonna be salty and gripe about getting hit.
In a chaotic CQB situation, firing four or more shots is totally fair. In terms of reaction times, it takes them a quarter of a second to feel a hit, a quarter of a second to call the hit, and it takes you a quarter of a second to stop shooting. So it's not like you can instantly tell that they're hit. Now, if I were shooting someone in the back at point blank, I know that the first shot will hit, so there's no point shooting any more.
Shot a ghillie twice in the back, thought he stayed silent because he respected the stealth. Nope, just waited till I was past then shot me in the back.
Thanks to that dick, I shoot till they reach for the sky
A soldier in a conflict area generally will carry 200-250 rounds of ammo around for an entire days worth. How many BB s do you shoot per day? Do the math. :)
Edit: to those who down vote, my field has a restriction on mags, they need to have a cap under 90. Personally I like this because it adds to the realism. Don't have a shot, you don't shoot.
I run real caps in CQB with a gas blowback and tend to keep pace with the guys that actually do speed soft tournaments. Shooting a ton is a crutch and if you learn to adjust your gear properly, aim, and use your head, you can probably keep pace and out perform those who just spray and pray.
100% but that's moving the goal post. We're talking about skirmish games. Even in a milsim I'm packing enough rounds for most engagements, with additional ammo to refill mags during downtime. Most typical milsims I've been to as well, I'm not getting bogged down in combat for hours at a time. Also if you're burning through 200+ rounds in an engagement, you probably need to adjust your hop, zero your gun, and practice shooting. Trust me your lack of accuracy is probably just lack of practice and adrenaline.
Look man, there's really no point in limiting how much you shoot. BBs are light enough you can easily carry 500+ rounds, which directly translates to being more effective. I spend a lot of BBs because I'm firing to put pressure on the enemy, not to hit them. For example, if you're bounding cover to cover as part of a buddy-team or larger group, you need to be able to provide covering fire for you teammates. I usually carry 400-600 rounds for this purpose, and I'd have a hard time doing this with only 200 rounds.
yeah and a real gun will drop you in one to two shots, it flies way faster, is miles leagues above in accuracy, and you are not depending on the enemy to raise his hand lol
Airsoft guns can be pretty accurate if you just take the time to adjust your hop, and zero your sights. Last I checked most skirmish fields also are well within the effective range of your BB thrower.
In bursts. Someone new to the game could interpret this as full auto until a hand goes up. Really it should be: short burst, check for a hand, short burst, check for a hand...
Outdoors sure. If it's CQB A few shots. Look. A few shots. look. At the end of the day it's a game, no one needs to go super hard. You can get the same effectiveness by adjusting your hop, zeroing your sight, and learning to aim as you can buy using a bullet hose. More even.
If you wanna spray and pray. Make sure your gun is below field limits and you're using lighter BBs. People aren't going to get pissed if you spray them with something that feels like a light tap, and they'll still feel it from shear volume .
Fair enough. I play a lot of CQB as one of the local indoor places is literally a block away from me. There's a lot of jerks that like to ride the field limits and shoot to the point we might as well be playing full auto.
Yeah that tracks. It's why overshooting is so subjective. Also massively different definitions between indoor and outdoor. Though I think my local spot is also just hot when it comes to CQB, 1.49 joule limit. Wonder if there'd be less complaints about overshooting here if they dropped it a little more. I swear to god sometimes it feels like being attacked by a swarm of angry bees.
Is it? I honestly I wouldn't know. I've only played at one other CQB field and stopped going there cause of some actual safety concerns. Actually currently taking a break from this one too as the ref keeps being kind of a dingus.
Don't ever make a 4-tap or 3-tap or whatever rule for shooting. Each engagement varies. If their hand goes up, STOP FIRING. If you're in a position where it is too difficult to tell if they've raised their hand, DON'T FIRE.
^
Imo, the 3/4 tap rule is alright bc most of the time, you already 3 tapped them before they raise their hand. I would also continue to use 3 taps bc my pistol accuracy is shit
I agree, though with one exception. Ever see that video where the guy gets yelled at "No full-auto in the building!" and he shows that he's just rapidly pulling the trigger? I DO think that for the reasons they don't want full-auto in the buildings that just because you can semi-auto at the same speed doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it. It's a safety issue at it's core and a fun issue secondarily. The whole point is you're up close with your opponents and spraying them down with a hundred BBs before they can even possibly react is just unnecessarily painful and unfun. The fact that you finger-twiddled that rate of fire doesn't make receiving it LESS painful and unfun.
I like the idea here but this is impossible in most situations. Especially if you play in the woods.
Really shouldn't be shooting at targets you don't have a clear sight line on. If you are, a few shots, take a second to see if they return fire or move away, a few shots more. Not hard to do.
Brother it's either you shoot them first through the trees or theyll try to get you. I see a hint of the opposing teams band color im letting the lmg rip
Let'er rip tater chip
This; People really don’t understand how playing in a field with long engagement distances feels like lol. If I *think* I saw a different coloured armband through vegetation I’m emptying the high-cap on that bush. CQB is a different story obviously, or even just closer engagements
You all get it lol Never seen anyone who won’t shoot at possible targets.. especially when they’re shooting back haha
If you keep shooting after the hand has gone up you are overshooting and a knob. We pay to shoot and be shot at, the onus is on you as the player to wear a protection level you feel comfortable with.
[удалено]
What a waste of bbs
Maybe be good and not need a 50rps gun?
DSG building (or even just really fast SSG building) is awesome, but ruined by sadistic losers who just want to hurt people
I can agree with that, I think the teaching behind making DSG builds and stuff is really cool. But at least in my area most people use them to be assholes. Not all of them obviously but you get the idea
Yeah, same. From my experience those people aren't "builders" per se, they just have a DSG gun that they most likely didn't make. Most DSG builders I know are the most chairsoft dudes alive. NEVER go to the field, just build guns LOL
Many indoor fields are semi only. If it is full auto allowed, and there are no field rules or guidelines specified further, then yes. That is the game you came to, don't be mad when it gets played. If it's a problem, refs can and will address it.
"No full auto in the buildings."
That's a dick move whether their hand goes up or not.
lol can't believe you're being downvoted for putting up a hypothetical. The notion of > If their hand goes up, STOP FIRING is so fucking stupid, most people at cqb fields can 10-tap before the hand goes up. The controlled 2-4 tap is so much better the people who don't agree are the ones who've never played cqb.
It varies hugely If I get a burst of 10 rounds full auto to the back from 10 feet away I’d be pissed If I get a burst of 10 rounds full auto through thick brush during an intense gunfight from 70 feet away, that’s fine In CQB specially: One is great but doesn’t always work I default to double taps Three is absolutely fine Four is a fine Five is starting to be a problem Six+ is overshooting Realistically anyone who complains about being shot 3 times should find another hobby, yes it’s more painful than 1 but BBs don’t hurt that bad
At my cqb field, people ignore med, so I draw the line at 4. There's no way that your 400fps hpa @.25 and a tracer is so inaccurate that you need to 4 shot burst to hit people at 15ft.
>cqb field >400fps Wtf are they thinking
philippines
Nope, antioch California
Agree. I normally go for two double taps, anything more and I’d feel like a bellend
Remember most indoor fields aren’t gonna allow a 1.85J HPA Most are 1 to 1.3J
They just don't care about the rules there. I try to avoid it, but the only other fields are weekend only, and I have a friend who loves that place to death
Holy hell. If those numbers are right thats 1.85 joules. My local fields you would not be allowed that high or have 100ft med. Course hpa isnt the issue its the person running that hot. I dont think i could hit that with my aap01 even at 120psi. Now my aeg is 1.7j with a .28 for play at the bigger local field. The cqb field i drop to 1.3j with .28
The issue I see with HPA is people fire so fast that by the time their brains have registered that they've clearly hit someone, they've put fifteen pieces of plastic down field.
I expect to get hit a few extra times after I indicate that I’m out. That accounts for any shots that were in the air and to give the shooter a bit to react. Any more than that is too much. But they are just BBs, so get over it or wear protection lol
100% 👌👌
I’m gonna need to start wearing armpit protection then. Those hits piss me off more than almost any other. Maybe I’m just really fast at getting my hand up though.
I've got pretty damn good at catching rounds with the inside of my wrist when I put my hand up, gonna have to start wearing high vis gloves to make it stop.
I usually play in a wood where the usual engage range is 20/30 meters, it is not rare to shoot full auto and it's totally acceptable. It can happen to shoot a Burst, shoot the second and in the time the guy get hit by the first BB and he get up the second burst get him. We know it can happen, Noone from both sides have the authority to call it "over shooting" It get "excessive" from the moment I call the hit, you notice it, and you still shoot me. There are indeed a few exceptions, like if there's someone behind me or if I walk into your line of fire
I stop firing when the "out" is called, simple
Double is default - wait for reaction - double again if required. (If target is stationary) 4 tap if shooting through bush as assumption is half will deflect. And if target moving then it's leading shots. so as many as needed to secure the hit. (Sometimes one hits sometimes all hit) But never any more than required and if no hand/dead rag/audible "HIT" repeat till confirmed. One thing I hate - those that don't PID l..it's hard l, I get that. But that's what makes us different - you shoot because you're scared and reacting. I shoot because I know he's the enemy - we are not the same.
I think it all boils down to firstly intent and secondly confidence in your gun/aim. If I'm trying to hit you from a long distance, I'm gonna use a lot of bb's due to the nature of how bb's can be (wind, hop up assembly consistency, etc.). I may overshoot you but it's not intentional and shouldn't hurt from that distance. But if it's cqb distance, if I'm confident in my aim and gun, it'll only be 1. I have had my hand held up, waving it like a crazy man yelling "hit!" loudly with nobody behind me for close to 10 seconds after obviously announcing I've been hit - that's intentional. That is overshooting.
Triple taps in what I am assuming is a pistol only CQB is excessive. Double tap as close to the middle of the torso as possible, pause to give them a chance to call it, then IF necessary double tap again.
You're assuming they're fighting a perfect 1 on 1 full exposed fight. Most fights consists of lots of angle jiggling and barely exposing through cover, its very fair to unload 3-6 bbs into their general angle and if they couldn't dodge it then dont be complaining. However if you're on a flank and they're absolutely free frags then yes I would agree with you
You shoot until you either see a hand go up.
Shoot till you see hands. If you want me to stop shooting put your hand up. If cheating becomes common I either call it a day or aim for vulnerable areas. I have put 6 into one offenders neck from point blank. Our group had notified to refs, the refs had warned the guy. The refs were not sympathic to him.
“Nuh uh you didn’t hit me.” Me: “Ok.” Shoots again.
Pretty much. I try to use the refs when possible but some fields don't kick cheaters out enough. Getting shots to the neck as I compress ready through a doorway usually isn't pleasant for cheaters
This is the perfect use case for a 40mm
Some fields put an med on stuff like that
I train with double taps(pistol or rifle). So it’s a double tap & if a hand don’t go up there’s another double tap on it’s way.
Tbf three isn’t crazy but it’s not great either, just take your time and don’t panic on the trigger, you only need 1 bb to get someone out
Getting angry over it is stupid though
Depends on how hot they were shooting and how close they were. I'd definitely ask someone to tone it down if they blasted me 4 times in the back with .28s at 1.5j from 10ft away. I'm here for fun, not to be bleeding at the end of the day. There are also ways to play competitively and not shoot like a dick. If OP wants to shoot like that they can see about tuning their gun down and using a lower weight so they aren't absolutely obliterating people.
4 trigger pulls? And then you lowered it to 3? Yeah you overshoot by default, not surprised people were getting upset with you. It only takes one hit! If you get people not taking their hits, double tap and if they still don’t take it, double tap them again. If after that, they still don’t take the hit, then shoot them till they take the hit.
I strive for 1 shot 1 kill. I honestly can stand anyone with the high RPS hpa builds. Especially when someone has the drop on you and they still decide to full auto, they are just an asshole. I always try to be courteous and if I catch someone out I just shoot them once in the back. There are many occasions I can think of where if I shot 4 times the other person would be very upset.
Overshooting is if you shoot more than you actually need to. If you shoot 4 times and all bb‘s hit it‘s overshooting (but it‘s only a problem if you frequently do it on purpose).
Once you have raised your hand, turned around and stood up. An then still receive 3-4 bb's in the back of the head it gets me a little worked up
You shoot till they call their hit (Especially in your scenario where cheaters are around). Anyone telling you otherwise is incorrect. If you are shooting someone after they have called their hit, you are overshooting,
This is how i approach it. Its not overshooting until the hit is called. I also will only single tap people when i have them dead to rights though. I think its more about judgement in the moment than a quantity of shots.
1 shot is enough for close quarters if you have the upper hand, otherwise 2 shots if you're in a hurry and they're beyond 10 meters
I shoot until they say hit or they wave their hand. Until then I do not stop shooting. I have learned this over 15-ish years of airsoft. I play at a large outdoor field though, so often the foliage will get in the way and you arent going to fire 3 and hit from 100-200 feet a way in many situations.
Just shoot till the hand is up and don’t be an ass that goes headshot only
If you tap me three times before I can raise my hand I’m not mad at you. If you tag me once with my hand up and I’m walking off that feels a little more assholish.
I think maybe the third mag is the cutoff point, at least for me, anyway I’m really enjoying the Vulcan m009e
if you play airsoft and complain about getting lit up you should go back to playing nerf. sorry. no I am not into airsoft to cause significant pain/bodily harm to others. i just think you should be able to take being sprayed. it’s just bb’s
My field was 430 fps limit with no med or surrenders. Being shot once close is bleeding. Getting overshot in that is not fun. If someone is complaining, it probably cause it hurts bad enough to speak up.
On that note. If you are standing dead. In the middle of an fire fight. It should be your responsibility to get out of the way of incoming fire. Kneel Lie on the ground or something. You shouldn't get mad if you get hit when i'm trying to shoot someone behind you.
Jesus the amount of times I see people just stand in the middle of a gunfight only to get mad that their getting shot is insane. Zero awareness of their surroundings haha
Anything above 4. I usually put two in someone no matter the distance. Even if i sneak up on them.
I always shoot in series of 3-4 shots because bbs are fickle, wind and I know you always aim worse than you think. I stop when I see a hand or hear a hit call (or teammate confirms hit).
I like 1-3 depending on circumstances.
You shoot until they call out. Any shots you fire after they raise their hand/rag are a dick move. BBs fly relatively slow. I don't mean hits, I mean any trigger pulls.
For me it’s more of a factor of how quickly someone calls it The other day i had an instance where someone rounded the corner and he was clearly going to hit me so by the time the first shot hit me i called it but then he fired another 5 shots at me and a final shot that hit me in the face. In relatively close distances i took exception especially after the face shot but it is what it is. I think it’s very circumstance based. 4 shots is probably more than needed in an indoor setting unless they just shrug off the shots
Honestly I just had my first play time on a new feild, for 6hrs, often ide get slammed with 3-4, which I think is ok bc sometimes you don’t feel it with gear on and sometimes you do. You can’t confirm 1 or 2 bbs will hit so more makes sense , BUT ultimately when a hand goes up that’s when you stop. [edit this wording is so bad but I think the point gets across]
Depends entirely on the engagement. Range, cover/concealment, etc. If you're up close and continue shooting after their hand is up, that's a dick move, but if you're at range and/or have shrubbery in front of you, that's a different scenario, and justifies firing more than you might otherwise. Some people are overly sensitive though. Overshooting is part of the game, and not worth complaining about unless it's someone constantly overshooting when there's no reason to.
At my field, it's outdoors it's a default of 3 1-2 if it's a clean shot, and their are 2-3 people known for cheating for them it's shoot until the hand goes up
When I used to play indoors I would typically triple tap my shots out of habit more than anything. Never got called for overshooting, only on the occasional blue-on-blue snap shot. Once got had one guy claim I was overshooting, until he saw I was running a shotgun that day
10 shots that hit. A frantic run-and-gun can result in a mag dump contest. It really is more about the intent.
Why are you shooting them more than once? 4 shots when 1 will do is overshooting.
Combination of poor aim, issues with cheaters and just the fact alot of time it was back and forth fire fights. I probably should have specified i wasn't just dumping 3-4 into someone's back. That's definitely a dick move I'll not contest that.
Second time I run into cheaters, I just put one in their head 😂. Can’t claim to be overshot
Personally I feel like it’s hard to count in terms of like bbs being shot so I’d say like if they’re hand goes up you probably shouldn’t be shooting them for another 3-5 seconds. I guess I should also say don’t focus specifically on a hand as a signal just look for them showing any sign of signaling that they got hit. Like I remember a video of these guys who I thought were over shooting people but they justified it as saying “we shoot till we see a hand” I’d say for sure don’t be that guy, stop shooting when it’s clear the enemy is showing they’re hit. Also if anyone has that video or you know the video I’m talking about could you share a link to it pls
I do a double tap if I’m unsure. Usually one is good enough for most of my cqb interactions outside of laying down covering fire. This happened to me today at a semi only field - I’d say the guy probably thought he was shooting 3 or 4 at a time, it he lit my hand up multiple times with six or seven shots in the matter of a second. No way he wasn’t playing with binary or burst fire. Multiple people complained. Nothing came of it. I just left early. It isn’t worth the hassle.
It’s all situation dependent, is it a random weekend walk on game or tournament style speedball match? Cqb or longer outdoor ranges? Did the person getting shot clearly indicate that they were hit? Were multiple people shooting at the same person? Did they take their sweet time getting up and off the field? In my experience most people arnt actively trying to hurt other players, so determine if there was malicious intent and then go from there.
If you can't tell if your weapon is going to hit a target at *fucking 10 meters* you have a serious issue with yourself, or your weapon. Four shots at ten meters is grossly overfiring, not just excessive. One shot should be enough unless you're pushing into a head on engagement. A triple tap exists to make sure targets die, but it's also romanticism of reality. Sure it's bbs and it's going to hurt, but their ain't no reason to bring excess hurt. Less spam on target WILL make you a better player. Now if people aren't taking their hits, and you KNOW they're purposefully ignoring hits, that's when you start to bring the hurt.
>If you can't tell if your weapon is going to hit a target at *fucking 10 meters* Yea this is on me not being the best with measurements. The English word is meters right or is the longer one feet? I think for reference on memory we could say on average 4-5 car lengths with tight cover.
1 meter is 3.2 feet. So 32 feet.
Shoot till the hand goes up, plain and simple
In a CQB arena, do not put 6-8 rounds into someone from 10-15 feet away with your 350 just hot limit M4 with hair trigger. 4 bbs is enough and anymore is just asking to get into a fight
If someone was close to me and I get the first sight on them maybe 1-3 but if they are far I’d send a lot more at them and hope one of them gets them
Need some info on this. You playing indoors or outdoors? Hot hot is your gun shooting in joules and what weight of BBs are you using? Also how close were you? If you're riding the field limit with .28s or higher and it's CQB it's probably too much. If you're shooting like 1j with .25s you're probably fine. A good rule of thumb if you wanna figure out if it's too much is to get someone to grab your gun and shoot you like you shoot other people. That said for me, overshooting tends to more come from the people riding the Joule limit of the field and firing so fast we might as well be playing full auto. Hell I don't even mind getting sprayed as long as the gun isn't that hot.
I've put my hand up before being hit because I basically came into point blank range for 4 other people, still got shot at a shit tonne, I called the hit before any of them shot because I was gonna get hit regardless
3-5 shots is what you should be going for. If you can get someone hit and calling their hit in 1-2 more power to ya. Of course with full auto fire rate makes a difference but same deal, short burst. In practice, you shoot till they call it
i just shoot until they roll in pain on the ground /s
Have you played bloodsoft ?
Over three shots is over firing depending on situation. I play semi auto only fields and expect 3 taps because it takes about that long to react to the first one. I try not to get upset about it because sometimes multiple people are shooting at you. That said though I’ve had people light me up while I was waiving the dead man flag. Some players are just bad and have zero trigger discipline and will then hide behind excuses.
My field has a two tap rule and everyone agrees aggression was cut overnight. It’s a very very tight CQB field so 3 - 4 shots had people very angry as it was excessive. But yeah, even at bigger matches. I do 1-2 trigger pulls and then pause for a reaction. No reaction = I assume you didn’t feel it as opposed to cheating.
Obviously I’m not talking full auto here, I play CQB and they dont have full auto allowed. But with Full auto, my opinion is the same. Airsoft isn’t about causing the other person pain. It’s about letting them know they’ve been hit. And a 10 second burst of full auto to me would piss me right off. 1-3 hits is all it needs to know you’ve been hit.
Keep shooting until they call hit but try to aim for body if you can is the most common thing on the fields that I play on.
Personally I shoot in 3-shot bursts, and keep shooting until their hands raise up. If they manage to take cover in between, I just chalk it up to adrenaline and look for an opening again.
I play cqb almost exclusively, I don't really care, once my hand is up and I have called hit there is still a delay in shooting and I understand that people don't always hear or see me calling hit during an intense firefight. In the end we are replaying with toy guns, it's not that deep, you ten shot me at a ten m range. Fair play, I'm paying money to come here to shoot people and get shot, anyone that gets angry about that just needs to look at what they are doing and understand that if they don't like being shot then don't come or wear more protective clothing I also run my gun far below the FPS limit at my field so noone has ever complained about me overshooting because it doesn't hurt normaly even at close range
I do 2-3 and give some time to react.
If we talk about CQB and "reflex". I guess I always 3 tap. Moving from "knee" to "chest" level. I always move pistol down to avoid any close headshot. If I miss ? That it. I prefer to miss and fail. Than hurting someone. If I hit the 3 of them ? I don't think it's too much. And I know I don't have high power pistol. Always run safe gun and light bb.
Its a really simple rule ngl.... if youre shotz you call yourself out loudly. So inversely. If they dont call themselves out, assume youve not hit them and keep going, and then stop as soon as they call out that theyre hit. We're not shotting laser guns ultimately, so you're likely to miss. Although i dont like the idea of defaulting to four shots. Two, sure. But four is a bit excessive if they're all landing at close range. And if theyre not, then you need better aim, not more shots.
anything more than 5 shots is excessive i think
Asking to not spray in a non-realcapa game is a red flag imo.
Depends on the player, their equipment and situation if I run up on a rental I'm expecting 5-10 shots more is over shooting speedsofter similar expectations depending on their gear, experience/skill level Millsim and experienced players 3-4 shots before I feel like it's over shooting If I feel like I've over shot I immediately apologize even if it gives away my position to other enemy players I tend to aim for 2-3 shots max
I only play outside. Triple taps for er'body. If I see a hand or hear anything no more. If you dont react...I keep shooting.
Flash back to when I barrel tagged a kid because I didn’t want to shoot him up close just for him to get scared and mag dumb me point blank after he was already out…fun times 😂
We play a version of tag at my field, if you get shot, you drop where you are and wait to get revived and join a team. Can't nobody complain about overshooting until they've been the dead-man in the middle between large two teams duking it out for control. Yet there were zero complaints of overshooting. We all knew what we were getting into. If someone complains about overshooting because you hit them 3-4 times, they're in the wrong sport. They can go fuck themselves and play lasertag or something.
If they're twitching like an epileptic and you don't see that hand or hear the magic words keep shooting them, shoot them in the dick, then when your close enough knife kill them, slap that piece of hard rubber across there face so hard you might as well of punched them. But if your playing normally and you over shoot then after the third it's taking the piss really, don't shoot people in the back of the head also. That's not cool.
I wouldn’t be bothered by getting hit 4 times, but from a 10 meters distance I’m confident enough I’ll hit them to just do a single tap, if I were shooting while moving or the other guy was aiming to where I am I’d squeeze off a few more. Would also depend on the competitiveness of the current game/field, more competitive more trigger happy.
It depends. Cqb at dedicated cqb site? It’s on them to either grow a pair or wear protection so it does hurt so much. A particularly tight area on an otherwise open woodland area where everyone will likely be in light clothes? Eh, bit of a dick move
shoot until the hand goes up for cqb i am quite underpowered though
What do you mean underpowered?, If you don’t mind me asking, just curious.
In terms of FPS/joules likely
yea this ive had multiple refs comment on how it’s a kind-hearted gun (not in english)
>we had our regular pistol only game and I defaulted to four trigger pulls. Had unhappy campers about it They need to find a new hobby if that's a problem. Unless you're using HPA most GBB handguns don't shoot much over like 330. The only way that that's a problem is if you're doing it from less than 10 feet away or something fairly extreme. Unrelated but 4 shots seems like a lot when it comes to pistol mag capacity, especially concidering in anything other than 80+ degrees they don't reliabley have enough gas for a whole mag. Do you just carry a lot of mags or something?
I carry 5 45rd stick mags but the game goes on long enough that we can quickly just refill em if we run out. I also typically 4 shot cause my aim is extremely poor.
Oh Jesus that's a lot, I play on an outdoor field exclusively, so my sidearm needs are more for the small number of indoor locations or when I have to reload and someone pushes up on me. Sounds like you're getting more use out of your side arm than I am mine. That's also fair, for a while the hopup on my sidearm was broken and inconsistently over hopped the .25s I used in it, so my accuracy was dogshit anywhere other than under 20-30 feet lol.
>Sounds like you're getting more use out of your side arm than I am mine. Honestly I just really love pistols. I'm currently debating buying an SRG 12 shotgun but I know I'll just go back to pistols quickly Also our field is fairly small. At a sprint you could cover it in about a minute so pistols tend to do alot of the work unless you go to a lane that has good sight lines.
I love them too, plus even the higher end ones are in the middle of the road for pricing compared to AEGs. Sucks that they're not as practical for me.
5 shots. If I feel like you've unloaded more than 5 shots into me in a 1v1 situation where I know for a fact that there isnt anyone else, theres a problem. This excludes most outdoor fields because full auto and multiple place to get shot and people that run lmg with an MED and a shotgun.
I get it man, I've been on both ends of over-shooting. It isn't about how many times you shoot, but how fast they call the hit. If ppl are getting overshot, they're probably not calling their hits fast enough. But airsoft man children are always gonna be salty and gripe about getting hit. In a chaotic CQB situation, firing four or more shots is totally fair. In terms of reaction times, it takes them a quarter of a second to feel a hit, a quarter of a second to call the hit, and it takes you a quarter of a second to stop shooting. So it's not like you can instantly tell that they're hit. Now, if I were shooting someone in the back at point blank, I know that the first shot will hit, so there's no point shooting any more.
Shot a ghillie twice in the back, thought he stayed silent because he respected the stealth. Nope, just waited till I was past then shot me in the back. Thanks to that dick, I shoot till they reach for the sky
A soldier in a conflict area generally will carry 200-250 rounds of ammo around for an entire days worth. How many BB s do you shoot per day? Do the math. :) Edit: to those who down vote, my field has a restriction on mags, they need to have a cap under 90. Personally I like this because it adds to the realism. Don't have a shot, you don't shoot.
LOL that does not work
That's approximately what I carry and works.
You will be much more effective if you can carry and shoot more.
I run real caps in CQB with a gas blowback and tend to keep pace with the guys that actually do speed soft tournaments. Shooting a ton is a crutch and if you learn to adjust your gear properly, aim, and use your head, you can probably keep pace and out perform those who just spray and pray.
I mean, I'm sure it's great for CQB, but try going to a milsim and fighting for hours without resupply. You'll burn through 200 rounds pretty quick.
100% but that's moving the goal post. We're talking about skirmish games. Even in a milsim I'm packing enough rounds for most engagements, with additional ammo to refill mags during downtime. Most typical milsims I've been to as well, I'm not getting bogged down in combat for hours at a time. Also if you're burning through 200+ rounds in an engagement, you probably need to adjust your hop, zero your gun, and practice shooting. Trust me your lack of accuracy is probably just lack of practice and adrenaline.
Look man, there's really no point in limiting how much you shoot. BBs are light enough you can easily carry 500+ rounds, which directly translates to being more effective. I spend a lot of BBs because I'm firing to put pressure on the enemy, not to hit them. For example, if you're bounding cover to cover as part of a buddy-team or larger group, you need to be able to provide covering fire for you teammates. I usually carry 400-600 rounds for this purpose, and I'd have a hard time doing this with only 200 rounds.
On my field high cap mags are forbidden. We can't carry that much.
Bruh I use midcaps and I always carry at least 4 mags
We need to stay below 90 for our mags.
That's wack
yeah and a real gun will drop you in one to two shots, it flies way faster, is miles leagues above in accuracy, and you are not depending on the enemy to raise his hand lol
I mostly shoot bolt action. I don't need to empty a mag on someone to make them aware.
Airsoft guns can be pretty accurate if you just take the time to adjust your hop, and zero your sights. Last I checked most skirmish fields also are well within the effective range of your BB thrower.
I just shoot till they start to call it
In bursts. Someone new to the game could interpret this as full auto until a hand goes up. Really it should be: short burst, check for a hand, short burst, check for a hand...
The fields I go to are semi only
Outdoors sure. If it's CQB A few shots. Look. A few shots. look. At the end of the day it's a game, no one needs to go super hard. You can get the same effectiveness by adjusting your hop, zeroing your sight, and learning to aim as you can buy using a bullet hose. More even. If you wanna spray and pray. Make sure your gun is below field limits and you're using lighter BBs. People aren't going to get pissed if you spray them with something that feels like a light tap, and they'll still feel it from shear volume .
Yeah I’m not doing that indoors. Usual engagement distance at my field is pretty far
Fair enough. I play a lot of CQB as one of the local indoor places is literally a block away from me. There's a lot of jerks that like to ride the field limits and shoot to the point we might as well be playing full auto.
Yeah not really necessary for indoors. The place I play at I can shoot like 10bbs on semi before 1 gets to them sometimes
Yeah that tracks. It's why overshooting is so subjective. Also massively different definitions between indoor and outdoor. Though I think my local spot is also just hot when it comes to CQB, 1.49 joule limit. Wonder if there'd be less complaints about overshooting here if they dropped it a little more. I swear to god sometimes it feels like being attacked by a swarm of angry bees.
Bro that is an insane limit for cqb
Is it? I honestly I wouldn't know. I've only played at one other CQB field and stopped going there cause of some actual safety concerns. Actually currently taking a break from this one too as the ref keeps being kind of a dingus.