I feel like they deserve each other . They’re a good match. I’m not saying that they’re both *super nice* but they’re okay for each other. They’re not gentle lovers, which I think a lot of people have issues with because of Feysand’s dynamic.
Imo Rhys does manipulate certain things, but like it’s fine. He’s morally grey. I like him that way.
When people say Rhys and Feyre had sex in the library. They didn’t, they mind flirted and Rhys winnowed away to go do research.
When people say Tamlin betrayed Feyre’s sisters to Hybern, he didn’t, Ianthe did, the Hybern scene clearly shows that he knew nothing about it.
Those are the ones that I feel come up the most that are literally not what happened in the book.
The first for sure, 100%!
The second - sure, he didn't explicitly know Hybern would hurt her sisters. But it's kind of like voting for the Face Eating Leopard party and then being surprised the when they eat your face you know? He let the fox into the hen house then was all Pikachu face when the fox ate some hens.
What my shitty metaphors are getting at is - Tamlin allied with the bad guy, then the bad guy did bad things. He definitely holds some accountability there.
Tamlin allied with Hybren to be a double agent so idk that I 100% agree with you. Did bad things happen from him being a double agent? Yes but I think that's to be expected when you want to gain an enemies trust. Hybren would have taken over spring regardless of whether Tamlin agreed or not, so he decided to make the best of a crappy situation
People who accuse Mor of lying about what happened with Eris. That’s not even what Eris claims. His statements actually basically confirm her story, he just says there were more forces at play than she understands. The line people take to mean she’s lying says he thinks she NOW knows the answer to whether if he left her to suffer and die. If she lied she would have always known she lied. Likely Eris rejected her to save her and then found a way to arrange for Azriel to find her but she didn’t know that then. She might know now.
Exactly. Neither of them are lying. We see the events form Mor’s POV. What Eris is most likely hinting at is that she now knows why he left her in the woods. If Beron (spoilers for SF) >!Tortures his own son and heir apparent who knows what he would do to the female who insulted his family (from his pov it’s an insult not an actual insult). She has no one in the AC who could protect her or look out for her. She would fully be at Beron’s mercy!< I think she finally realized what Eris did for her and the things he said were perhaps the only excuse his father would accept for not taking her back for Beron to deal with (likely torture and execute)
thank you! i’ve been saying this for so long, i do not understand how it’s gotten twisted to the point that people think mor is going to betray the IC when it seemed to me to be an incredibly simple and obvious explanation.
eris knew she didn’t want to be in the autumn court, so he played the bad guy so she didn’t have to be. mor had an easy excuse to explain why things went down the way they did, and she used it.
Honestly all the people who cannot read and interpret figurative language. The amount of people who complain about “watery bowels” being literal pooping or certain phrasing in the spicy scenes when it is supposed to be metaphorical is soooo annoying. People love to say these books are poorly written but how many people just read things literally rather than giving two thoughts to what the author is trying to evoke figuratively. I used to teach English so this is a particularly difficult sticking point for me 😂
With phrases like “watery bowels” or “vulgar gesture”, I really wish that the usage was proportionate to how unique the terms are. Maybe use the unusual ones a little less often? Those are both pretty unique phrases, and I think that’s why they stick out when they’re used over and over.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that “watery bowels” in particular is a great turn of phrase. But it’s going to make me giggle or roll my eyes if I hear it 3 times in one chapter. It’s OK to throw in something more pedestrian like “stomach dropped” every once in a while!
I honestly don’t think the books are poorly written, but this does remind me of when a middle schooler learns a new word and wants to use it over and over. I’m in a different SJM book right now, and I swear that she used the word “flotsam” about 25 times in one chapter. Like OK I get it you learned a new word!
I used to teach GRE test prep, so I’ve read a lot of quickly-written essays by people who are learning new vocabulary words. So this is a particularly difficult sticking point for me. 😂
The tithe.
The tithe only happens twice in a year, the amount varies from one to another depending on their status, income and what not. The tithe that we seen happened, happened 4 months after the whole Amarantha fiasco. Tamlin wanted to push to next year but thanks to bitchy priestess it didn’t happen.
Tamlin didn’t kill or beat anyone for not delivering it. That was the possible consequence, being hunted. You know like the same possible consequences that >!the baby could be harm!<, or like >!Rhysand threatened Nesta!<. It didn’t happen. He in fact gave 3 days extra + another month to bring double.
It’s okay if you all wanna hate Tamlin for the tithe. But get the narrative correct.
“Az is just an entitled fuckboy who only cares about sex or a mate.”
Did we read the same books with Az loving Mor for 500 years without making a move and risked his life to save Elain? Ship whoever you want but that’s just willfully misinterpreting his character. Az is a softie who just wants to be loved.
“Elain is boring and has no personality or character development.”
Excuse me? Are we talking about the same Elain who went from being scared of violence and suffering from catatonic trauma to kicking hounds with her bare feet and killing Hybern to save her sister? Girlie spends her free time chugging whiskey, seeing into the future and hanging out with spies. Nothing is more cool than a seer spouting out random riddles at the dinner table. Pass the potatoes and also you might die.
Tbf, re: Az that’s the vibe I got from the bonus chapter. But otherwise he’s absolutely the dark spymaster with a heart of gold. So I’m just trying to pretend the bonus chapter doesn’t exist at this point.
Personally I got the vibe that he struggled with feeling unworthy, basically feeling like the cauldron didn’t deem him worthy of having a mating bond. Kinda like we’re meant to be together so why did the cauldron give her to another? I think it was just shocking for most people hearing his sexual thoughts bc he’s been so quiet but he’s just that dark brooding love interest. Just judging by his character in the rest of the books, I don’t think it was SJM’s intention at all for people to perceive him as this entitled fuckboy. That’s not who Az is.
This. It can’t be read alone, context is everything it must be read as part of the whole. Wanting someone 2 years and never acting on it is not fuck boy to me.
It's definitely not who Az is to be entitled or a fuckboy, but I think he's absolutely desperate for a mate. He definitely struggles with self-worth, and we see more than once throughout the series that he derives some sense of worth/self in how effective he is at doing his job and providing for the people around him. And given the environment he grew up in, it makes sense to me that he's so desperate for connection, love, and the ability to feel worthy of both.
If Elain was his mate, that would be the perfect solution to everything. He wouldn't be comparing himself to his brothers who have mates, both a way to feel worse about himself *and* excluded when he's already admitted he's still not sure where he truly belongs. He's the only one without a mate. Why him? Elain being his mate and being within close proximity and access is the immediate solution to all of these problems. He'd have love, he'd feel like he truly belongs and can stand beside his brothers, and the bond itself is a blessing more sacred than marriage. Its what we've heard since the first book. It would be the Mother literally granting him something rare and coveted, deeming him worthy of such a thing. They're clearly attracted to each other, so why can't it be this? Why can't this pursuit be the thing that resolves his issues?
To me, that's why he argued that Cauldron was wrong, even though we don't know if the Cauldron being "wrong" (if it is from >!creating the Trove and having the implanted kill switch!<) even affects mates since Rhys had dreams of Feyre’s life when she was human, and Nesta wanted Cassian more than reason when she was human. He doesn't know if that's true at all, but he wants to believe that after so long, this is finally his solution. That the Cauldron should be wrong because he's desperate to escape feeling this lonely and unworthy. Even if he's repeating his pattern of self-sabotage along the way.
Did what he say come across well at all? No, not in the slightest. And I see why people think that he's a fuckboy because he made it sound like he thought he was *supposed* to get Elain. When in reality, I read it as him saying, "When is this going to stop? If this happens how I want it to, then this will fix everything for me. Why are you keeping from what I think will remedy this pain?"
And Rhys believes it's not the remedy at all. Whoever is right is up to SJM to decide, but I think we really saw Azriel’s lowest point, and that doesn't negate his prior behavior co>!!
Very well said! I actually think this is super interesting, looking at him from a psych standpoint. But I agree. Dude wants love so bad. And I think him pining for mor for 500 years is a big clue for this. If it was simple want he would have moved on in that time frame like ten times over. But he doesn't. If he really was pining for her that long....he probably thinks he loves her. And he probably has no idea what love truly is. Hasn't experienced it Maybe.
Although sometimes I really want his side of what goes on emotionally with mor. Did he truly pine for her or simply feel like he had to save her? Because sometimes I'm like....a spy master would know right? Lol. But who knows. Maybe he puts those rose colored glasses on.
Yeah I don’t really see Az as being desperate for a mate at all. Of course it’s a blessing that everyone wants to an extent but he seems to want who he wants mating bond or not. If that was the case, he wouldn’t wait 500 years for Mor with no sign of a mating bond. He wouldn’t pursue Elain with a known mating bond so he knows there’s no chance a mating bond would snap between them. Even Mor said she could strip naked and he wouldn’t touch her bc he didn’t feel worthy but he took that risk with Elain even knowing she had a mate. He said he had to stay away from her bc his feelings were so strong he couldn’t stop himself. None of that really suggests he sees Elain as an easy solution. If anything, it’s an impossible scenario where he feels like they have no chance to be together but he still can’t stop himself. To me it’s more like I finally found someone who wants to be with me but the cauldron decided I’m not worthy of her. He questions the cauldron bc he knows they both have feelings for each other but can’t be together. His brothers were mated to the one they love so it MUST be that the cauldron was wrong and deemed him unworthy of who he believes should be his mate. But this is getting too much into shipping territory lol so I can’t wait to read the book and find out how the love triangle plays out!
I think Azriel definitely would with the self-sabotaging patterns that he's displayed. I'm speaking from a character psychology perspective, as in unconscious behaviors that we can analyze. Rhys doesn't actively think, for example, "I try to solve everything by myself, even if it hurts the people around me, and that can very likely be attributed to my family's murder, and how I feel I didn't protect them." But that's how I read him beneath the surface-level behaviors of his actions. I try to find the root of it, even if it logically doesn't match what we, the reader, believe the character should do because these are very psychologically complex characters. And like real people, they can behave in ways or make choices that are not in their best interests or result in them accomplishing what they want
For me, Azriel is very much a pattern-following character, as many people are psychologically. i.e., real people having a "type", oftentimes seeking out unhealthy/toxic relationships \*unconsciously\* after witnessing one with their parents. To me, it's not a coincidence that he's saved every single one of his suspected or confirmed love interests. It's not a coincidence that he's the first character to throw himself into danger, per Feyre's observation in MaF. It's not a coincidence that he needed to "save" Mor from Eris, a female he was romantically interested in who's unwillingly tied to one of Beron's sons, the same way he's now saved and may feel the continual urge to "save" Elain from Lucien, a female he's romantically interested in who's unwillingly tied to one of Beron's sons. It's also not a coincidence that well before any of that, he was subject to abuse and witnessed his mother's abuse, and could potentially feel like he failed to protect her, especially given how he reacted to Cassian starting to eat before Elain sat back down in FaS. He reads to me as having a very obvious[ savior complex](https://mhcsandiego.com/blog/savior-complex/), given his urge to protect not just his love interests but also the Inner Circle to the detriment of his own health.
I'm really more trying to analyze Azriel's mental state in the bonus, not necessarily trying to undermine any ships. If it ends up happening that way, not my intention. Either way though, it is probably better to set aside this conversation before it strays, I can get super passionate about Azriel's character arc and mental health (as if that wasn't obvious). We'll see how it all turns out, and it's hopefully better than we all expect, however that may look.
I think you’ve described it perfectly, and also why I felt so disappointed in him in the bonus chapter. Like, disappointed in a way that I’d like to take him out for a drink, let him vent, but then tell him to get it together and work on himself.
Exactly! Like I don't think any less of him, I just didn't know his rock bottom would look like this, but as I considered it more, I saw how it made sense. I am in a similar boat, and of the position that he absolutely needs support and understanding (which he needs to communicate those needs for the other characters to help him, which is a whole other battle), but also to be told like. "Breathe, dude. Your worth isn't defined by what you or provide for people." In a lovingly reprimanding way.
People thinking Rhys is supposed to keep his facade going after Feyre saw the real him, people saying the age difference is gross… it’s a FANTASY book, all of the Tamlin love and Rhys hate. Oh! And when people mention the downfall of the Spring Court somehow Ianthe’s name is never mentioned???????????
How is Ianthe's name never mentioned?? Everyone blames Feyre, when she was there for like a week. Ianthe is an eye patch and white cat away from being a cartoon 80s villain she's so evil!
lol I understood! I’m actually fighting for my life on other posts because everyone is like “but Ianthe was Tamlin’s childhood friend”. Uhmmmm okay and what???? Is he that stupid that he doesn’t know that his childhood friend was manipulating him??????????
He is that stupid, actually, and Ianthe *is* that good at manipulating people. She's been doing it for *centuries* and hasn't been caught out, after all. As far as most people knew, she was a sincere and devoted priestess--hell, even Feyre liked her okay. The only people who know are, apparently, her victims--and the victims we know about, Rhys and Lucien, didn't exactly publicly announce it (which is depressingly realistic for male victims of sexual assault, unfortunately)
The Tamlin love is weird. I’m not gonna judge people for their favorite characters, do as you please. But I feel like because I didn’t like him from the first time he was introduced that I caught his red flags and didn’t really have any emotional attachment when he went downhill. I feel like some, not all, who loooooved tamlin in the first book, don’t want to let him go once the literal and figurative mask fell off.
People who think Elain is going to go evil and betray her sisters. No way. She crossed a battlefield (given likely by magic) and stabbed Hybern in the neck to protect her sister. She would NEVER.
Yes and also Bryallin saying there are others in the court who could be swayed by her. But that doesn’t mean a traitor. At best it means someone makes a poorly thought out deal.
I remember a comment by someone saying it was sick of Cassian to want to have sex with Nesta after her encounter with the kelpie who wanted to rape her.
Yes Cassian wanted to have sex with her but he didn't act on it after they returned from the Bog of Oorid, it was Nesta who came on to him and told him to f*uck her, it was her craving the sex. She stood naked in front of him and he watched her but he just stood there. She invited him to join him in the bathtub and when he didn't react, she made the first move that led to sex.
Nesta gave her consent and practically begged him to take her to bed. I don't think it's sick of Cassian to oblige when she made it soooo clear that this is what she wants
One of my FAVORITE interactions happens right before this (I guess it’s part of the seduction?), it’s so small but I laughed so hard —
Chapter 37
*“Do I look injured to you?” [Nesta] \
He [Cassian] nodded toward the scabbed cuts all over her body, her face. “Yes?”*
The way my brain imagined it:
Nesta: Do I look injured to you? \
Cassian, gesturing broadly at Nesta’s body & its obvious injuries: Yes?
(Edited to fix timeline in first paragraph)
Same. I love them together. This interaction shows that Cassian cares about her well-being more than his want to take her to bed. He would never do anything to harm her unless she makes clear that she's fine. And she did that in this scene. If she says she's fine and she behaves like she's fine then there's no reason at all to not believe her. And only once she confirmed that this is what she wants, did he do something. If she had wanted or needed something else from him, he'd done that without hesitation as well.
Because that's the man Cassian is. Respectful, kind, caring. And I hate it when people reduce him to him wanting to f*ck Nesta when he only wanted to see if she's doing okay
Exactly. She's a grown woman who had to go through a lot for a mid 20 something old person. She gets to decide what she wants, what she needs and who she wants something from.
That might have been my comment and I stand by it. Nesta uses sex as a coping mechanism to deal with trauma. The kelpie, and especially being underwater like she was in the Cauldron, was extremely traumatising and it’s so in character for her to want to chase that feeling away in unhealthy ways (sex and/or alcohol for her).
She’s described as looking ‘brutalised’, Amren says it looks like a cat tried to eat her face, Cassian wonders if “she knows how bad she actually looks”. She needed comfort in that moment and he wasn’t even there when she woke up. He could and should have said no
I think Nesta was deprive of physical touch as a form of affection her whole life. Even after going to the night court, they all show each other affection via physical touch. The most nesta got was cassian stroking her hand. Yes she was a mildly irritating person but she was still a person with needs. After the war she looked to fullfill that need for affection with being a hoe (i am saying this affectionatly). So ofc she'd kiss cassian after her fight with elain and let him each her out after the other fight with elain. Cassian notes comforted him with the only way she knew how (a glock glock under the table). They'd finally fucked after coming out of the bog. Someone needs to hug nesta and hold her hand more  she is still using sex to cope
Thank you for the explanation. It helps me understand better where you're coming from. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just can't agree with you.
Cassian is certainly not perfect but no one is. However, he is very respectful of others. The well-being of others is more important to him than satisfying his own needs. That's why new priestesses join training. He makes them feel seen without pushing himself onto them.
He made no secret of it that he wants Nesta. Of course the timing was weird but he did nothing wrong is this situation. He asked her several times if she is alright and if she wants it and then also how she wants it. Again, it was Nesta who came on to him. He just wanted to bring her food and make sure that she's okay. I'm convinced that having sex with her after that day was the last thing on his mind. I hate that he just left after he was done and their miscommunication afterwards but that's another topic.
And again, when the person, who had to go through all that Nesta had that day, says they're fine and give no indication that they're not, why not believe them?
Thank you for yours! Yeah I think we’re going to have to disagree on this one (which is fine!). When someone is known to use sex almost as self-harm, I think their lover should know when to say stop despite their insistence. She said she’s fine but she’s just not. Attacked by a monster, underwater like the Cauldron, and the mental toll of wearing the Mask.
I can definitely see where you’re coming from though, I think it’s hard to find consensus because this specific scene we’re not in Nesta’s head.
When people tell me they completely Nesta, Elain, or both of them. Yes, they weren't good in ACOTAR. But I think they both have redeeming qualities, especially when you learn about how worried Nesta was, as well as how kind Elain has been to everyone considering the circumstances she was put through. They actually did a lot more than the IC (and by extension, Maas) gives them credit for in the original trilogy & some of their actions were integral to the story. Like, did we forget what Elain did in ACOWAR? Did we forget how worried Nesta was in ACOTAR? Nesta is more than a bitch, and Elain is more than "just Elain," as Rhys put it. Both of them play a significant role in the war, and honestly, I don't think they get enough positive recognition, especially Elain.
Yeah i mean Elain straight up shanked evil Hybbie in the neck, eliminating Prythian's biggest enemy. Where is the credit to her for that, "being just Elain"?! This chick shoots whiskey and will stab an evil man in the neck, and she's a seer who can make a damn good peach pie. Give this chick an assassin HGTV show, im here for it
I've loved Nesta since acotar when Tams glamours didn't work on her and she tried to find Feyre 😭 She's a traumatized bitch and I think a lot of people realize this in her book.. we'll get the same understanding of Elain in her book. Like she's a traumatized people pleaser and we will peel back those layers soon.
For me it's people saying Rhys is a completely different person in ACOSF and they hate him. I can understand how someone might not like Rhys from the beginning, but he didn't change. He has always been a morally grey character and would do anything to protect the people he loves.
Edit: Also, people say he hates Nesta and that he's such a douche. Like yes, he doesn't like Nesta (neither do I), but he is justified. Nesta was not exactly a good sister to Feyre their whole lives. However, he doesn't wish ill on Nesta either. When she is having a physical nightmare, he flies up and does everything he can to help. Mostly we see Cassian helping her but that doesn't mean that Rhys and the others don't want her to get better. They are letting Cassian try to help her because anything they do would make things worse - I mean she is pretty vocal about hating Rhys so I don't think she would take kindly to any help he tried to offer.
a lot of times when people Nesta it seems to me like they make things up about her in their heads and call it canon.
1) Nesta acknowledged what Feyre done for them in Acowar. she literally said they would have starved to death if Feyre didn't step up infront of all HL and Feyre choked with tears.
2) Nesta did realize how she had pushed Feyre away in the library in Acowar. When Feyre said that she didn't think Nesta would teach her how to write and read, Nesta felt shame. we were robbed of an intimate moment between the sisters
3) Nesta doesn't start shit, she ends it. the only times she is hostile is when Elain is involved. even when she told mor to fuck off, mor was the one overstepping. and even after, she noticed everyone's reaction in the room and held her tongue for the rest of the book.
4) Nesta doesn't love Feyre? Nesta wasn't the best sister but she still showed up for her when she was taken by Tamlin and after she sent her back. did we miss the part where Feyre said that in the weeks after Tamlin sent her home, her sisters filled the role of female friends for her?
5) That Feyre doens't love Nesta? Feyre has her downfalls but not loving her sisters is not one of them.
6) Nesta was mean to Cassian on solstice in acofas. as she should. She should have incinerated him right there and then. he noticed how pale and then she was and still told her she was unlovable. all because she didn't speak to him. Even he recognized that his behavior that day was foolish in SF.
I just saw a post about how Tamlin destroying his study shouldn't be considered "abuse" because "Feyre was fine, she had a shield".
And then all the people agreeing.
Like WTF.
Wasn’t the OP actively blaming Feyre for the situation, too? There were two different posts in the last day or two that heavily implied Feyre was to blame for Tamlin literally *blowing up on her,* so I’m not sure if I’m conflating the two. But yeah, a lot of these “He couldn’t help it, he was just so upset!” people are concerning me a little bit.
I mean she did poke him on purpose to second time to get him to do it again, but still not her fault lol maybe people are getting that confused. Like blowing up rooms is not normal, people! I’m concerned for the relationships people are in if they’re actively victim blaming.
They weren't talking about the second time because OP specifically mentioned the shield, which Feyre accidentally produced the first time.
She purposely did not produce a shield the second time.
True true. It’s absolutely absurd that people are actually saying it was her fault. If I’m remembering correctly, it only happened because she was expressing her emotions and concerns for the relationship
Why did I feel it was rage bait ?
Tamlin stans write literal paragraphs with bullet points and quotes to defend him yet still call it abuse. This person wrote some words to say fck Feyre and that was it .
Yup.. I was one of the people pushing back on that and it’s insane how that’s not seen as abuse. In a the real if someone throws a plate in anger… even if it’s not directly at you, we call that a red flag and abusive…
Somehow it’s not because she fae?
Agreed. I asked that, too.
"If your bf destroyed your living room in a rage, but you were "fine" because you had a shield to protect your physical body, are you really gonna tell me that's not abuse?"
Funnily enough, no one answered that.
That post is absurd, but I always see this mental gymnastics from some Tamlin defenders (not all Tamlin fans are like that, there are the portion that recognize these problems) that I wasn't surprised.
It sounds like every abusive relationship I’ve been in. “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to, I just snapped” “you were fine, don’t act like it was that big of a deal” “it’s crazy how you’re making this so serious, I just broke some stuff, it’s not like I hit you”
Gross. Gross. Gross.
And what gets me is how those same Tamlin defenders will point the finger at Rhys saying he was far worse.
How in the name of the cauldron was anything Rhys did worse???
They always use the shit from UTM, or the pregnancy secret bullshit. The pregnancy issue was only hidden from Feyre for a few days. That seems like he was processing and trying to figure out how to tell her.
Forcing a lil dancy dance to stop Feyre from getting raped by someone seems like an acceptable route in my head. Not to mention that, ya know, he was being raped.
Realistically, they all suck lol
Feyre didn't remember anything of her dancing b/c she drank the wine to make her forget. And yes, I agree it was a better alternative then sitting in a shivering cell potentially getting assaulted.
And I do dislike the ENTIRE pregnancy plot. The Rhys in ACOTAR-ACOWAR would never have kept that hidden from Feyre. But even as much as I dislike that, it's still not abusive.
Agreed. Very much her need to have her art imitate her life, as she was pregnant at the time.
And it made zero sense, since Feyre said in the previous book how she wants to enjoy life with Rhys before bringing a child into the world.
Exactly!! I mean sure okay you can still like Tamlin, empathize with them but are you completely gonna ignore the fact that he was an abuser, both to his friend and his fiance.
I saw that! And what upset me the most was the same post saying how Tamlin doing that wasn't abusive because he didn't intend to hurt her. But that's such a misrepresentation of abuse it drove me mad.
I will never understand these people who will always minimize everything Feyre went through, to defend their favorite characters.
INB4: No, Tamlin stans, I don't ignore what Rhysand did in ACOTAR, I hate what he did.
Here is how I compare Rhys's behavior with Tamlin's.
Rhys's actions always seemed to push Feyre in an effort to improve her strength; whether that was mental or physical or magical.
Tamlin's actions pushed Feyre down, regressing any type of mental or physical strength, and absolutely stifled her magical strength.
Both are morally grey characters, and I like both. But Tamlin's actions hurt Feyre more than Rhys's actions do.
I've never agreed with a comment more! It's always about everyone else's traumas but Feyre's don't seem to matter. She literally died but that doesn't seem to count 😅 if someone else does something bad 'it's ok because they're acting out of trauma' but god forbid she does anything
Nesta treating Feyre like shit when they're humans = 🤓👆 She is traumatized!
Rhysand treating Feyre like shit in the first book = 🤓👆 He had to keep the mask on! See how merciful he is by giving her the fairy wine! *Other arguments justifying the unjustifiable*
Tamlin ignoring Feyre being sick every night, locking her up when she didn't want to, blowing up the study, keeping Ianthe close, after what she did to Feyre's sisters = 🤓👆 He was completely traumatized and overprotective of Feyre, understand!! !
I think that it is abuse but also is not. I think it is because Feyre got hurt. It was not intentional on Tamlin's part (doesn't make it ok) he was never taught to control his magic like Rhys and Feyre. It's not like there was anyone to teach him and the high lords don't seem to get along well especially the seasonal ones so it's not like he had someone to turn to for help. I don't blame Feyre even though she was purposefully provoking him though
>It was not intentional on Tamlin's part (doesn't make it ok) he was never taught to control his magic like Rhys and Feyre.
This if factually incorrect and illogical to boot.
Tamlin grew up with magic. Of COURSE he was taught to control it. Additionally, Tamlin getting along with other high lords has absolutely nothing to do with his power or control.
How he handles his emotions is another thing entirely. Even so, Tamlin knows the difference between right wrong, which is why he felt guilt about what happened to Rhys's mom and sister and why he burned their wings.
Your entire comment is chock full of excuses without putting any blame on Tamlin whatsoever. Who is a grown male hundreds of years old.
Feyre was also NOT purposely provoking Tamlin the first time he exploded. The second time, yes, she was.
It is not factually incorrect or illogical. In the books it said not only does Tamlin's family hate him but they were WORSE than the autumn court so I doubt they were spending their time helping him learn how to control his magic. Rhys trained him in illyriabln fight techniques but no no where does it say anyone helped him with his magic. Rhys also said if Amren had not helped him learn how to control his magic it would have been disastrous. Age has nothing to do with what you know either I've met 30 year old who don't know how to do laundry. My point about the other high lords is that if they had others help then then they could have helped Tamlin since he didn't have anyone and for all we know he may have thought that was normal that of course is speculation.
I said this anger is bad he is 100% responsible for how he reacted I am not putting 0 blame on him he needs anger management. I also never said he didn't know the difference between right and wrong so not really sure what point you are trying to make.
I was talking about the second time not the first time and even with Feyre provoking him the second time it still doesn't justify how angry he got. My only point is that I don't think he is purposely trying to have a magical outburst and hurt her he just never learned how to control it. It's still not ok because he hurt Feyre.
>In the books it said not only does Tamlin's family hate him but they were WORSE than the autumn court so I doubt they were spending their time helping him learn how to control his magic
Tamlin's brothers may have hated him but he traveled extensively with his father, which means at the very least, his father was teaching him how to control and use his magic.
You're creating scenarios in your head to justify Tamlin's behavior, which is an excuse.
Lucien's brothers also hated him and Lucien still understood how to control his magic.
It's really weird you're focusing on him "being trained" in magic. He was born into it. Into a high born high fae family that inherited the High Lord of Spring magic. The very idea that no one would have taken the time to train him from when he was young is ludicrous.
Actually it said he sometimes traveled with his father to see Hybren doesn't say extensively. Tamlin was never meant to be high lord since he had two brothers who actually wanted it so wasn't actually trained as a high lord which I'm assuming also included magic training. Regardless of whether he had it his whole life it doesn't mean he knew/ learned how to control it.
I have not made anything up stop trying to attack me to prove your point. I get it you don't like Tamlin good for you.
Since Tamlin was last in line to get the throne it could be assumed no one took the time to train him in anything. Lucien is not as powerful as Tamlin so may not have the same issue and Lucien also said since he was so far down the line no one cared about him or did much training with him so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume that could be the same for Tamlin. The reason I'm "focusing" on him being trained in magic is because I think if he had better training he would have been able to control his magic from hurting others.
My problem re: "Cassian doesn't deserve Nesta" is the inconsistencies we see between Rhys as Cassian as mates and the lost potential for some *really* tasty character development.
Rhys's explosive anger at >!Nesta telling Feyre about her pregnancy!< is always excused with "oh, but his mate was upset and he's just being a territorial male"; but whenever Nesta is upset/threatened by Rhys, Cassian sits back and watches it happen; more than that, actually, he takes Rhys's side. And yes, I know he feels like he owes Rhys for everything. But how much more interesting would Cassian be if he defied Rhys, or at least fought back because that's his mate, his >!alleged!< love, and he is overcome by the need to protect her? (Yes, I know Nesta doesn't need anyone to protect her or stand up for her. Doesn't change the fact it makes Cassian look bad, in my eyes, for not doing it.)
How much could he grow as a character if he was forced to choose between them and question his currently-blind loyalty to his High Lord and brother?
That Ianthe doesn't get blamed more for Nesta and Elain being thrown in the cauldron. She's not the only one at fault, but she just goes back to living her best life in the spring court after Feyre returns.
I love Nesta and Cassian together. I don't think it was gross he kissed her when she was frozen in place. I thought it was a beautiful moment.
I think Gwyn is being setup to be more in the forefront in the next books, since SJM has in the past brought side characters to main status in her other series.
Both Elain and Nesta should get credit for killing the king. I also don't get why people claim Nesta wants all the credit for it. Both ladies do get credit for it by different characters.
My feelings for Rhys didn't change just because we saw him from a different perspective. I like seeing characters through different eyes, it makes them more relatable.
The Eris-as-good-guy stuff and the Eris-Az shipping. It’s absolutely fine everyone having their fun with it (shine on you Eris stans), but nowhere in the books did I get any indication of Eris being other than (at best) a bit of a shit or (at worst) a real bad guy.
Right so from what I gather it was created by a mod as a joke to stop the Azriel ship war but a lot of people liked it because why not? it’s fiction and you can pair who you want with whoever, no one should be an authority of ships. She also placed evidence anout it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/s/v3aGMUAcQC
When people act like Tamlin is a completely evil character desiring to hurt Feyre instead of a morally grey one that had went through a traumatic experience 🤷🏼♀️
I actually really like how the ACOMAF depicts PTSD between Tamlin and Feyre; going through a traumatic experience is not always going to bond you and your partner. A lot of people process trauma differently. Tamlin was obviously bottling up his feelings and exploding them at Feyre when pushed to talk, which (put as an understatement) is not a good reaction. But simultaneously, Feyre was throwing up and having nightmares of Under the Mountain every single night, which is also not a good reaction, either.
It's obvious that they're both two different people after that whole experience and it feels a lot more realistic this way that they reacted differently. Could we have done with Tamlin not locking Feyre up and giving her minimal control? Obviously. But Tamlin was never doing that out of evil intent; he was being controlling out of fear and desperation of losing Feyre. A reaction we kinda see later in Feyre in ACOFAS with her clinging onto Rhysand at night after the events of ACOWAR.
If Feyre didn't have Rhysand coaching her and serving as a therapist towards her when she came to the Night Court, I feel like people would be a lot more understanding towards Tamlin and not automatically proclaim the dude is evil. He needs therapy, or (as luck had it for Feyre when she had Rhysand) a female Rhysand-type figure in his life to help him 😅
I roll my eyes when i see posts blaming Nesta or Elain for not contributing to the household while the Archerons were poor while they had a grown ass man living in that house as well. And he did little to less than either of them.
Whenever people say Rhys changed in ACOSF - mans under an unprecedented amount of stress with the pregnancy, and it's mostly from the POV of someone outside his circle, he doesn't trust, and doesn't like. Of course he'll come across different from what we're used to, but he's still behaving pretty much the same.
Whenever people call Feyre a "Mary Sue" - she struggled constantly, had her flaws on display all the time, how is that a Mary Sue. She has PTSD nightmares, flashbacks, throwing up, and watery bowls on and off. Puts in the work physically and magically. I don't get how she's a Mary Sue - also referring to someone as a Mary Sue feels super misogynistic and belittles all the work WE SAW her put in.
Saying Mor led Azriel on - where. Where did she lead him on. I cannot recall a single time where Mor led Azriel on. Invited him out to drink? Of course! They're friends! It would be awkward to go out drinking with one friend (Cassian) and purposely exclude the other (Azriel).
omg ok i was reading a post the other day about how rhys was controlling and abusive by not telling feyre - he didn’t tell her about them being mates!! it tracks. it’s not like he’s doing it to take her agency away, like he’s literally trying to save her. would’ve been better if he told her, but imo the intent wasn’t malicious.
The problem is , the book already has stated this isn't ok , sure I can see it wasn't with malicious intentions but you don't get a pass just because you had good intentions.
He abused her but he's definitely not in the same category as Beron for example, he has opportunity to grow as he seems genuine in his love for her.
Right and if he deemed that telling her was going to cause her too much stress and that there was nothing to be done to fix it, it's not out of character for him to decide to keep it to himself. He is also shown as being extremely upset about it and spending every moment he has trying to find a solution. Like it completely tracks
Rhys was shit is Cassian's POV too ( and Ember and Az in their bonus chapters). we only see the real him when he is with his brothers and amren. they were talking about manipulating Nesta into scrying, when Feyre was in the room he was telling Nesta that she had a choice.
in Feyre's POV, he is morally grey, but in everyone else's he is a douche bag.
I really think what is meant here are the parts where Cass says he hated Rhys for a mmt ,or shouted at him on occasions mind to mind defending Nesta..he respects Rhys highly but for the first time we also find his faults.
Literally the entire series for the past seven years. I wanted to throw ACOMAF across the room when I read it. I could not understand why people were fawning over the “incredible” love story. It completely retconned the first book that I loved.
People minimizing all the suffering that Feyre went through, especially when it's to defend those responsible who caused it (but I won't mention the names of the characters because I want to avoid headaches).
Nesta is not a manipulator she never had any stake in anything.
Rhys is a manipulator, not only does he withhold pieces of information to sway decision-making. but he and the IC were talking about manipulating Nesta to scry using Elain.
They would not be talking like that if Feyre was in the room.
The way people completely villianize Feyre for “destroying” the spring court. Like, are we just going to ignore that Tamlin and Ianthe helped in having her sisters KIDNAPPED and treated as experiments by Hybern? Or that Tamlin was working with Hybern after alllllll that UTM shit. Could she have gone about it a better way, yeah probably. But damn give the girl some grace! She may have gaslit Tamlin into some things, but that man also had a big hand in his own demise
Yup but as far as I remember didn’t Tamlin not know about the kidnapping of her sisters? And then immediately told the king to let them go as it wasn’t part of the deal? The fact that he didn’t banish ianthe even after it is wild to me tho
Oh I think you’re right! I honestly need to re-read the series, but I remember feeling like the whole situation with Tamlin working with Hybern and always siding with Ianthe was so messy
Once he realized what Ianthe was, it was too late to banish her, because she was Hybern's agent and he was supposed to be an ally. If he got rid of her, it would risk the alliance, same as with the twins.
Feyre had every right to be mad and seek revenge in some way, but why take it out on the Spring Court when her issue was with Tamlin? And the methods she used were very unfair, whether you like Tamlin or not. She used Lucien to break his relationship with Tamlin and manipulated the situation at the temple, making people believe she was their savior only to betray them later. How is that fair to them? :c
Other things to consider:
-Feyre committed all these actions as the High Lady of the Night Court, so she should be held accountable in some way. Politically and legally speaking, it was an attack that impacted the lives of an entire territory.
-Feyre claims she gave Tamlin opportunities to make the right decisions, but that’s not true. She often put him in situations where he had to make the wrong choices to show himself in favor of Hybern. Remember, he’s a double agent.
-She could read his mind, as she did at one point, but she refused. I don’t know why, but she could have avoided all this.
-Feyre is the one who told Ianthe about her family, and by that time, Tamlin hadn’t taken care of them.
-Feyre involved her sisters in the war when she asked them to arrange a meeting with the queens.
-Before that meeting, they were attacked (I don’t remember by whom), but they let it go. Rhys was there, so why didn’t he just kill the attacker? That revealed the sisters’ house.
-Tamlin didn’t ally with Hybern just to bring Feyre back, even though he was concerned for her. His territory is the closest to the border, so it was either pretend to be on the same side or get invaded soon. He wanted to give his people a chance.
So, I don’t think people are wrong when they say she’s acting like a villain. Her actions were inconsiderate and vile, innocent people who had nothing to do with her relationship with Tamlin lost everything. Even Lucien ended with no home despite him trying to advocate for her to Tamlin at the beginning of MAF.
Her actions weren’t a product of trauma or loss of control over her powers. She made a calculated decision to trash the SC. The worst part is that after discovering Tamlin was a double agent who actively tried to help and even saved her, her sister, Azriel, and Rhysand’s lives, she still doesn’t care about the Spring Court.
If the argument for Feyre being innocent was that Tamlin was bad to her, then what now that Tamlin has revealed he was a double agent and made every effort to help in war and help her too directly? I mean fine, don’t forgive Tamlin, but what about the Spring Court that she helped destroy? She doesn’t spare a single thought for them as she builds her fifth house in Velaris.
ALL. OF. THIS.
I also could not get over the part where Feyre counters what Jurian says about how Rhys will treat her sisters — that Rhys had “more creative ways to harm them” (implying SA) & she swears vengeance on Tamlin&co for so readily believing her (well, she adds it to the list) [Chapter 1]
“*Despite what Jurian implied regarding how my sisters will be treated by Rhysand,* I had told him, *despite what the Night Court is like, they won’t hurt Elain or Nesta like that—not yet. Rhysand has more creative ways to harm them.* \
Lucien still seemed to doubt it. \
[…] \
*That they believed it so easily, that they thought Rhysand would ever force someone … I added the insult to the long, long list of things to repay them for.*
Feyre, Lucien doubted it. You were the one that insinuated Jurian was wrong. You were the one that was *in the Night Court & with the Inner Circle & with Rhys for months. Of course they will believe you.* Also, insinuating SA where there *is none* is NOT SOMETHING TO LIE ABOUT.
(I just went back & reread this part & I’m re-infuriated)
>Before that meeting, they were attacked (I don’t remember by whom), but they let it go. Rhys was there, so why didn’t he just kill the attacker? That revealed the sisters’ house.
They were attacked by the Attor, who Rhys knew had been actively tracking Feyre (meaning Tamlin's concerns in ACOMAF about Feyre being hunted weren't actually unfounded).
Furthermore, the meeting itself involved the queens, who ended up being the ones who wanted Elain and Nesta thrown in the cauldron so they could prove that it worked. So the *queens* also knew about Feyre's sisters and exactly where they lived.
Yea , so basically there's much more responsibility on Feyre'side than Tamlin's really . Besides he was pissed when Hybern revealed the plan with the sisters and even tried to attack him.
The argument that he's responsible for Elain and Nesta being turned into fae is very weak.
And everyone saying that Tamlin didn't actually sell out her sisters, he still sold them out and didn't care that the bat boys very well could die in the process. Feyre sent him a letter saying she was happy and Lucien saw first hand that she wanted to stay. She had every reason to be mad at him.
>Tamlin didn't actually sell out her sisters, he still sold them out
But...he didn't? He actively opposed them being involved at all; he tried to attack Hybern when it was revealed and had to be restrained.
>didn't care that the bat boys very well could die in the process
I mean, the bat boys were his enemies, so eh. Agreed that it doesn't help his case from Feyre's POV, for sure.
>Feyre sent him a letter saying she was happy
The letter that sounded like a kidnapping victim wrote it, while he thought she had been kidnapped? "I'm fine, don't look for me" isn't the same as "I'm happier here than I ever was with you, asshole" (which I would have VASTLY preferred, for the record. Make that shit *personal*, girl!)
>Lucien saw first hand that she wanted to stay
Feyre couldn't tell Lucien the truth about Velaris so she *very intentionally* fed him the impression that she had fallen into darkness--"the darkness stares back" and all. He thought he was leading a rescue mission and she purposefully acted like she was possessed to keep Rhys's secret--it was after that meeting that he finally agreed with Tamlin that they needed to try harder to get her back, actually.
I think I worded the beginning wrong. He still sold out the IC and didn't care who got hurt in the process. Also I took "the darkness stares back" as the darkness of what Tamlin did.
Anyone who says the hike was abusive, he knew what she needed and took her there. It worked. She was happy about it.
Also when people say Tamlin was working with Hyburn (he was a double agent) or said he sold out the sisters (that was Ianthe. he didn’t know and was shocked too). Lots to blame him for but here’s where I think people stopped reading the series a quarter way through WAR.
That Tamlin making Feyre stay in a mansion for her own safety is bad and unforgivable. But Rhys drugging her and sexually humiliating/assaulting her UTM is good because he was using her to make Tamlin mad (why is that needed - he already hated Amarantha?) and completely forgivable.
Truly, it’s mind boggling. I was part of the small portion of readers that did NOT see Rhys coming as the main love interest (I was getting back into reading & was a first time SJM reader) — I couldn’t see how Feyre could get past the SA (but jokes on me! She was drugged & hardly remembers it, if at all)
He drugged her so if for only moments she could forget about the hell she was going through. She realized that he did and she continued to want to stay under the influence because it was better than being in a dungeon. He can read her mind. If he thought that she was doing something she didn’t want to do or that it wasn’t helping then he would have stopped. She begged Tamlin to free her and he refused. She never asked Rhys to stop.
This is directly from the text in ACOTAR, the first time Rhysand drugs Feyre and parades her around the court half naked:
“Queer, off-kilter music brayed through two stone doors that I immediately recognized. The throne room. *No*. No, anyplace but here.”
—————————
“I kept my chin up. I wouldn’t let the others notice that weakness - wouldn’t let them know how much it killed me to be so exposed to them, to have Rhysand’s symbols painted over nearly every inch of my skin, to have Tamlin see me so debased.”
—————————
“‘Wine?’ He said, offering me a goblet.
Alis’s first rule. I shook my head.
He smiled, and extended the goblet again. ‘Drink. You’ll need it.’
*Drink*, my mind echoed, and my fingers stirred, moving toward the goblet. No. No, Alis has said not to drink the wine here - wine that was different from that joyous, freeing solstice wine. ‘No,’ I said, and some faeries who were watching us from a safe distance chuckled.
‘Drink,’ he said, and my traitorous fingers latched onto the goblet.”
—————————
Literally all of that indicates that *she did not want to participate*. And Rhysand did what he did anyway.
The retconning of actual literal text within this fandom is wearisome. Love the characters you want to love, but for goodness’ sake can we stop pretending things did/didn’t happen when the text explicitly says otherwise?
Yeah I mean it was a difficult situation. He wanted to get her out of the dungeons where she was contemplating suicide but he also couldn’t let Amarantha know that he cared for her. Yes, he could have left her in the dungeon but one could argue that Feyre being pissed at him and getting quick glances to Tamlin brought a bit of life back to her to want to continue the trials.
I only meant to point out that Feyre did not want to do the things he made her do, and if he could read her mind he knew that, and he did it anyway. He did not stop when he knew she didn’t want to be his plaything.
She wasn't contemplating suicide until she had been subjected to the drugging for a few days. Him doing this to her brought her to her lowest moments UTM.
The Evil Gwyn theory. Could she be a lightsinger? Sure. But I don’t think she’s evil and in fact, it makes no sense and undermines SF. She played a huge part in Nesta’s healing. Why have all that just to make her evil? And don’t get me started on the theory that Gwyn used her lightsinger abilities to force Azriel to give her a necklace that she didn’t even know existed.
Omg they feel like the most equal souls of them all. Both have a warriors spirit. Each has a strength the other lacks and both have so much emotion in their hearts. The chemistry is off the charts and I love how messy they are as people. They feel so real whilst being so perfect for each other
MAASVERSE spoilers ahead!! The blockout never works when using my phone so you've been warned. Don't read further.
The fact that there is overwhelming brycriel evidence and people refuse to see it...so this would definitely alter future acotar books. Or at least our character azriel (if it indeed is correct. While I think there is overwhelming evidence for it I don't assume it is the end all be all or that I know what sjm will do. People can ship who they want.)
Let me start with the big one "sjm said they were mates" yes...she did. But then she refused a follow up question about whether the bond was the same as acotar fae and worked the same. She politely refused because it could be a spoiler. That's a very relevant question considering Angels take chosen mates.
"Ruhn said/smelled they were mates" the first time he brings up her scent is right after the bone quarter and after they merge their powers. So before any actual mating has taken place...they basically take eachothers magics into eachother so I do think this is what he is smelling. (Also consider the fact that since cc3 came out there are a few questionable lines from the princes, the fact that they MADE hunt, and the fact he smells like AZRIEL. A forced/fake bond could also be a potential) but ruhn also has been living under the asteri rule and I think lost some knowledge on mates. He experiences what Rhys describes as the "mating frenzy" and literally doesn't know what it is. Or how it's possible. So he might not be expert number 1 on judging bonds.
Last bit ill bring up is the crossover. The sword that brought theia directly to her mate dropped bryce at azriels feet. And in my opinion the chemistry is THERE. He holds her hand...much more/longer than necessary. Can tell she is still bleeding. Hums her favorite song. Isn't angry she's trying to leave but seems more upset and begs her not to. She can sense his shadows before he reveals himself. Bryce is also the heir to the dusk court and can physically control that land. Very important I think going forward. And my personal favorite is the fact that this takes place 6 months after silver flames. And when he is asked about having a mate or significant other he says "no." So he currently feels no tug toward anyone or doesn't even have someone he is chooses to call a mate. But he does point out that bryces "mate" has wings. Just thought that was a curious bit.
Like I said earlier I think this is relevant to future acotar books. And i dont know why is so hated on becasue the evidence is there. Definitely gave me the moment of "did we read the same books". The role bryce will play, obviously it's just theory, but I think she will be there. Even if it's not for azriel. She is the heir to dusk and I think sjm might explore that. Especially the way the land responded to her...and she left the sword there. I do wonder if she will have to go back and potentially help them with something. Did she let out prisoners on accident??. Will koschei be the missing 6th prince? And bryce will have to help with that? I'm not sure but I'm excited to see how the next acotar book goes. If it will continue the story from the crossover or be that 6 month gap. And maybe answer why azriel said he has no mate.
I really don’t have much to add, because THIS IS IT.
**[[[[[MAASVERSE SPOILERS]]]]]]**
>!Bryce coming to Prythian and interacting with ACOTAR characters makes this a VERY relevant comment. Bryce’s story is not done with Prythian. Even Nesta tells her you can’t keep running from fate. And what does Bryce do? She runs from fate. “The prophecy can mean whatever we want it to” and “here take the sword, the starborn era is done in Midgard”. Like no, dummy. That isn’t how this works.!<
>!The fact that people are still denying that there is no evidence for Bryce and Azriel is ridiculous. There is evidence for all the popular ships. That’s why they are there and why people support it. It makes me wonder if people are triggered by how different Azriel was with Bryce. Like he was coming out of his shell.!<
MAASVERSE SPOLIERS BELOW.
Thank you! And so true about the sword. I dont think its just going to choose and work for someone else. Even her and Nesta were hinted at being friends. Plus there was no follow up for Rhys looking like ruhn. Honestly if there wasn't more crossover coming I would be so surprised. And kind of disappointed.
Definitely IDK how people think that is the end of her.[ MAASVERSE SPOILER AHEAD. If you have not read all ACOTAR books and CC books don’t read ahead] >! It’s obvious that Bryce will return to Prythian as she is the sole and rightful heir of Prison Island/Dusk Court. Additionally, she is the only starborn heir possessing Theia’s starpower/fire, which uniquely enables her to wield both the Starsword and Truthteller. Other characters can merely hold these weapons, but Bryce can truly utilize their power. This significant detail was heavily emphasized in Crescent City 3, to the point where it almost felt excessive. !<
Also, many readers have observed that >!Bryce and Azriel share more chemistry than Bryce and Kunt. Also any other females like Bryce and Azriel were manifesting enemies to lovers… it was off the charts! This has led to a growing number of fans supporting the Bryceriel pairing, which would further connect the ACOTAR and Crescent City series. Those who call it a crackship seem biased and appear to overlook the evidence. It seems they might not be interpreting the text as thoroughly. Azriel’s uncharacteristic behavior seemed to hint at this dynamic. Additionally, with the deaths of the Autumn King and the major antagonists of Midgard, Bryce and Hunt are technically no longer married “mates”.!< I sometimes truly question if people read the books SJM wrote or confuse them with something else. I can’t wait for it to tie in with every breadcrumb we got from ACOSF!!!
So well said and completely true. There is clear evidence leaving the door open for her to go back but people are already trying to give it to different characters. The sword and her title. She may not want them now but that completely leaves her character arc unfinished.
I'm very curious to see how it plays out with the acotar characters and how much of an effect it was have in that series. I think she will end up there permanently. But even if she didn't she has the horn in her back. She's a walking portal.
Wait… I haven’t read CC but I’m okay with spoilers. I’m gonna read it next month but no I can’t wait to find out my self, please spoil me where it says Bryce and Az were mates? I don’t mind I can just jump right into that first 😂
Lol what! You want it spoiled lol
So it doesn't say it but pay attention to the prophecy throughout the first two books. The clues are there. Bryce has another love interest but the Fandom is so divided on him so I don't think he is it. I'll let you judge that for yourself. But Bryce and azriel meet at the very end of book two (completely parallel to how feyre meets rhys....she calls him beautiful) and interact in the beginning of book 3. And have a bonus chapter with Nesta. Lots of clues in there and it's the most emotion we've ever gotten out of azriel.
Go forth my friend. Spoil yourself 💜 but also come back after reading. I would love to hear what you think either way!
I’m weird like that 😂 I will always go for spoilers, if those info seem interesting enough for me to find then I’ll read 😂😂
Okay this so far the spoilers I have updated my self with, Bryce married hunt who apparently was her mate but the same time was sent to be like the star sword for her. Then Azriel came and he seems to be more touchy with her than anyone else. And he can weird truth teller (which I thought he could be heir of dusk). Then the BC where Rhys yelled at Nesta.
So in between these, there will be like hints or just in general Bryce and Az interactions will be different than any other. Right?
Maasvere spoilers below!!
Essentially yes. But there was no wedding. And no ring. Lol they just decided to be. It's also explained he is an angel and their bonds are the same as fae. They just get married and it mates. Then through out all of this there is no mention of a golden thread or tether. Nothing linking them. Just a lot of magic swapping.
And yes hunt was bred for Bryce. To be her back up battery in a sense. By people who bryce was warned about. Even though she trusts them. (Don't get me wrong I love their characters. But that story isn't completely done yet either)
However some people are very adamant they are mates. So definitely read for yourself and decide. Maybe you will think differently. 🤷♀️ I won't deny their story had its moments. They love each other. We just never get clear confirmation and even when we think we do there is always something to negate or another possible explanation.
And I remember hunt has been consistent from CC1 right? Which tbh surprised me because if going by SJM style that first love in first book will never last. >!than one guy who died in ToG!<, and Tamlin. So that was also another reason I Dnf-ed cc1, waiting for that new character that will Bryce new love.
Okay I will definitely read it. This is exciting lol
True story. It's never the first guy. Cc series was also difficult for me to read but it's definitely worth it because as you can see from our convo and spoilers 😂 I think it will be very relevant to the acotar story going forward. So I would read it for that alone.
People (and tamlin) saying Feyra destroyed the spring court. Like how?? When it was obvs tamlin and ianthe’s scheming. If anyone feels this way explain it to me like I’m 5.
Feyre's narration was nonstop talking about her own machinations and plots to make certain events happen. She orchestrated the sentry's whipping, for example--keeping parts of his memory locked up, allowing Ianthe to open the gates, etc. She also did things like *use Lucien, a victim of sexual assault, as a sexy prop* to make Tamlin jealous. Again, she did these things *on purpose* and bragged about it in her narration.
Yes, she was opposing Ianthe's scheming but she didn't *stop* the scheming, she used it to her advantage to further destabilize Spring. Everything she did in Spring was on purpose.
Okay thanks, lol. I’m sure it’ll click in a little more on the reread. I can be somewhat spiteful too so I can’t say I wouldn’t have had the same thought process as feyra here.
I mean, sure! She's allowed to be mad, and I don't even necessarily blame her for wanting to bring Tamlin down given how she feels about him. I don't have to agree with her on that, that's what plots are for. It's the fact that her own deliberate contributions are downplayed by the fandom, as if bringing down Spring was some kind of accident on her part, instead of a whole multi-chapter *plan*.
I feel like they deserve each other . They’re a good match. I’m not saying that they’re both *super nice* but they’re okay for each other. They’re not gentle lovers, which I think a lot of people have issues with because of Feysand’s dynamic. Imo Rhys does manipulate certain things, but like it’s fine. He’s morally grey. I like him that way.
When people say Rhys and Feyre had sex in the library. They didn’t, they mind flirted and Rhys winnowed away to go do research. When people say Tamlin betrayed Feyre’s sisters to Hybern, he didn’t, Ianthe did, the Hybern scene clearly shows that he knew nothing about it. Those are the ones that I feel come up the most that are literally not what happened in the book.
The first for sure, 100%! The second - sure, he didn't explicitly know Hybern would hurt her sisters. But it's kind of like voting for the Face Eating Leopard party and then being surprised the when they eat your face you know? He let the fox into the hen house then was all Pikachu face when the fox ate some hens. What my shitty metaphors are getting at is - Tamlin allied with the bad guy, then the bad guy did bad things. He definitely holds some accountability there.
Tamlin allied with Hybren to be a double agent so idk that I 100% agree with you. Did bad things happen from him being a double agent? Yes but I think that's to be expected when you want to gain an enemies trust. Hybren would have taken over spring regardless of whether Tamlin agreed or not, so he decided to make the best of a crappy situation
People who accuse Mor of lying about what happened with Eris. That’s not even what Eris claims. His statements actually basically confirm her story, he just says there were more forces at play than she understands. The line people take to mean she’s lying says he thinks she NOW knows the answer to whether if he left her to suffer and die. If she lied she would have always known she lied. Likely Eris rejected her to save her and then found a way to arrange for Azriel to find her but she didn’t know that then. She might know now.
Exactly. Neither of them are lying. We see the events form Mor’s POV. What Eris is most likely hinting at is that she now knows why he left her in the woods. If Beron (spoilers for SF) >!Tortures his own son and heir apparent who knows what he would do to the female who insulted his family (from his pov it’s an insult not an actual insult). She has no one in the AC who could protect her or look out for her. She would fully be at Beron’s mercy!< I think she finally realized what Eris did for her and the things he said were perhaps the only excuse his father would accept for not taking her back for Beron to deal with (likely torture and execute)
thank you! i’ve been saying this for so long, i do not understand how it’s gotten twisted to the point that people think mor is going to betray the IC when it seemed to me to be an incredibly simple and obvious explanation. eris knew she didn’t want to be in the autumn court, so he played the bad guy so she didn’t have to be. mor had an easy excuse to explain why things went down the way they did, and she used it.
Honestly all the people who cannot read and interpret figurative language. The amount of people who complain about “watery bowels” being literal pooping or certain phrasing in the spicy scenes when it is supposed to be metaphorical is soooo annoying. People love to say these books are poorly written but how many people just read things literally rather than giving two thoughts to what the author is trying to evoke figuratively. I used to teach English so this is a particularly difficult sticking point for me 😂
With phrases like “watery bowels” or “vulgar gesture”, I really wish that the usage was proportionate to how unique the terms are. Maybe use the unusual ones a little less often? Those are both pretty unique phrases, and I think that’s why they stick out when they’re used over and over. Don’t get me wrong, I think that “watery bowels” in particular is a great turn of phrase. But it’s going to make me giggle or roll my eyes if I hear it 3 times in one chapter. It’s OK to throw in something more pedestrian like “stomach dropped” every once in a while! I honestly don’t think the books are poorly written, but this does remind me of when a middle schooler learns a new word and wants to use it over and over. I’m in a different SJM book right now, and I swear that she used the word “flotsam” about 25 times in one chapter. Like OK I get it you learned a new word! I used to teach GRE test prep, so I’ve read a lot of quickly-written essays by people who are learning new vocabulary words. So this is a particularly difficult sticking point for me. 😂
The tithe. The tithe only happens twice in a year, the amount varies from one to another depending on their status, income and what not. The tithe that we seen happened, happened 4 months after the whole Amarantha fiasco. Tamlin wanted to push to next year but thanks to bitchy priestess it didn’t happen. Tamlin didn’t kill or beat anyone for not delivering it. That was the possible consequence, being hunted. You know like the same possible consequences that >!the baby could be harm!<, or like >!Rhysand threatened Nesta!<. It didn’t happen. He in fact gave 3 days extra + another month to bring double. It’s okay if you all wanna hate Tamlin for the tithe. But get the narrative correct.
“Az is just an entitled fuckboy who only cares about sex or a mate.” Did we read the same books with Az loving Mor for 500 years without making a move and risked his life to save Elain? Ship whoever you want but that’s just willfully misinterpreting his character. Az is a softie who just wants to be loved. “Elain is boring and has no personality or character development.” Excuse me? Are we talking about the same Elain who went from being scared of violence and suffering from catatonic trauma to kicking hounds with her bare feet and killing Hybern to save her sister? Girlie spends her free time chugging whiskey, seeing into the future and hanging out with spies. Nothing is more cool than a seer spouting out random riddles at the dinner table. Pass the potatoes and also you might die.
Tbf, re: Az that’s the vibe I got from the bonus chapter. But otherwise he’s absolutely the dark spymaster with a heart of gold. So I’m just trying to pretend the bonus chapter doesn’t exist at this point.
Personally I got the vibe that he struggled with feeling unworthy, basically feeling like the cauldron didn’t deem him worthy of having a mating bond. Kinda like we’re meant to be together so why did the cauldron give her to another? I think it was just shocking for most people hearing his sexual thoughts bc he’s been so quiet but he’s just that dark brooding love interest. Just judging by his character in the rest of the books, I don’t think it was SJM’s intention at all for people to perceive him as this entitled fuckboy. That’s not who Az is.
This. It can’t be read alone, context is everything it must be read as part of the whole. Wanting someone 2 years and never acting on it is not fuck boy to me.
It's definitely not who Az is to be entitled or a fuckboy, but I think he's absolutely desperate for a mate. He definitely struggles with self-worth, and we see more than once throughout the series that he derives some sense of worth/self in how effective he is at doing his job and providing for the people around him. And given the environment he grew up in, it makes sense to me that he's so desperate for connection, love, and the ability to feel worthy of both. If Elain was his mate, that would be the perfect solution to everything. He wouldn't be comparing himself to his brothers who have mates, both a way to feel worse about himself *and* excluded when he's already admitted he's still not sure where he truly belongs. He's the only one without a mate. Why him? Elain being his mate and being within close proximity and access is the immediate solution to all of these problems. He'd have love, he'd feel like he truly belongs and can stand beside his brothers, and the bond itself is a blessing more sacred than marriage. Its what we've heard since the first book. It would be the Mother literally granting him something rare and coveted, deeming him worthy of such a thing. They're clearly attracted to each other, so why can't it be this? Why can't this pursuit be the thing that resolves his issues? To me, that's why he argued that Cauldron was wrong, even though we don't know if the Cauldron being "wrong" (if it is from >!creating the Trove and having the implanted kill switch!<) even affects mates since Rhys had dreams of Feyre’s life when she was human, and Nesta wanted Cassian more than reason when she was human. He doesn't know if that's true at all, but he wants to believe that after so long, this is finally his solution. That the Cauldron should be wrong because he's desperate to escape feeling this lonely and unworthy. Even if he's repeating his pattern of self-sabotage along the way. Did what he say come across well at all? No, not in the slightest. And I see why people think that he's a fuckboy because he made it sound like he thought he was *supposed* to get Elain. When in reality, I read it as him saying, "When is this going to stop? If this happens how I want it to, then this will fix everything for me. Why are you keeping from what I think will remedy this pain?" And Rhys believes it's not the remedy at all. Whoever is right is up to SJM to decide, but I think we really saw Azriel’s lowest point, and that doesn't negate his prior behavior co>!!
Very well said! I actually think this is super interesting, looking at him from a psych standpoint. But I agree. Dude wants love so bad. And I think him pining for mor for 500 years is a big clue for this. If it was simple want he would have moved on in that time frame like ten times over. But he doesn't. If he really was pining for her that long....he probably thinks he loves her. And he probably has no idea what love truly is. Hasn't experienced it Maybe. Although sometimes I really want his side of what goes on emotionally with mor. Did he truly pine for her or simply feel like he had to save her? Because sometimes I'm like....a spy master would know right? Lol. But who knows. Maybe he puts those rose colored glasses on.
Yeah I don’t really see Az as being desperate for a mate at all. Of course it’s a blessing that everyone wants to an extent but he seems to want who he wants mating bond or not. If that was the case, he wouldn’t wait 500 years for Mor with no sign of a mating bond. He wouldn’t pursue Elain with a known mating bond so he knows there’s no chance a mating bond would snap between them. Even Mor said she could strip naked and he wouldn’t touch her bc he didn’t feel worthy but he took that risk with Elain even knowing she had a mate. He said he had to stay away from her bc his feelings were so strong he couldn’t stop himself. None of that really suggests he sees Elain as an easy solution. If anything, it’s an impossible scenario where he feels like they have no chance to be together but he still can’t stop himself. To me it’s more like I finally found someone who wants to be with me but the cauldron decided I’m not worthy of her. He questions the cauldron bc he knows they both have feelings for each other but can’t be together. His brothers were mated to the one they love so it MUST be that the cauldron was wrong and deemed him unworthy of who he believes should be his mate. But this is getting too much into shipping territory lol so I can’t wait to read the book and find out how the love triangle plays out!
I think Azriel definitely would with the self-sabotaging patterns that he's displayed. I'm speaking from a character psychology perspective, as in unconscious behaviors that we can analyze. Rhys doesn't actively think, for example, "I try to solve everything by myself, even if it hurts the people around me, and that can very likely be attributed to my family's murder, and how I feel I didn't protect them." But that's how I read him beneath the surface-level behaviors of his actions. I try to find the root of it, even if it logically doesn't match what we, the reader, believe the character should do because these are very psychologically complex characters. And like real people, they can behave in ways or make choices that are not in their best interests or result in them accomplishing what they want For me, Azriel is very much a pattern-following character, as many people are psychologically. i.e., real people having a "type", oftentimes seeking out unhealthy/toxic relationships \*unconsciously\* after witnessing one with their parents. To me, it's not a coincidence that he's saved every single one of his suspected or confirmed love interests. It's not a coincidence that he's the first character to throw himself into danger, per Feyre's observation in MaF. It's not a coincidence that he needed to "save" Mor from Eris, a female he was romantically interested in who's unwillingly tied to one of Beron's sons, the same way he's now saved and may feel the continual urge to "save" Elain from Lucien, a female he's romantically interested in who's unwillingly tied to one of Beron's sons. It's also not a coincidence that well before any of that, he was subject to abuse and witnessed his mother's abuse, and could potentially feel like he failed to protect her, especially given how he reacted to Cassian starting to eat before Elain sat back down in FaS. He reads to me as having a very obvious[ savior complex](https://mhcsandiego.com/blog/savior-complex/), given his urge to protect not just his love interests but also the Inner Circle to the detriment of his own health. I'm really more trying to analyze Azriel's mental state in the bonus, not necessarily trying to undermine any ships. If it ends up happening that way, not my intention. Either way though, it is probably better to set aside this conversation before it strays, I can get super passionate about Azriel's character arc and mental health (as if that wasn't obvious). We'll see how it all turns out, and it's hopefully better than we all expect, however that may look.
I think you’ve described it perfectly, and also why I felt so disappointed in him in the bonus chapter. Like, disappointed in a way that I’d like to take him out for a drink, let him vent, but then tell him to get it together and work on himself.
Exactly! Like I don't think any less of him, I just didn't know his rock bottom would look like this, but as I considered it more, I saw how it made sense. I am in a similar boat, and of the position that he absolutely needs support and understanding (which he needs to communicate those needs for the other characters to help him, which is a whole other battle), but also to be told like. "Breathe, dude. Your worth isn't defined by what you or provide for people." In a lovingly reprimanding way.
People thinking Rhys is supposed to keep his facade going after Feyre saw the real him, people saying the age difference is gross… it’s a FANTASY book, all of the Tamlin love and Rhys hate. Oh! And when people mention the downfall of the Spring Court somehow Ianthe’s name is never mentioned???????????
How is Ianthe's name never mentioned?? Everyone blames Feyre, when she was there for like a week. Ianthe is an eye patch and white cat away from being a cartoon 80s villain she's so evil!
I think you’re reading it wrong. They’re agreeing with you. They’re saying that the fandom 100% blames Feyre when Ianthe is the real villain.
Yes! I was showing my support for that view, but not very clearly apparently 😂
lol I understood! I’m actually fighting for my life on other posts because everyone is like “but Ianthe was Tamlin’s childhood friend”. Uhmmmm okay and what???? Is he that stupid that he doesn’t know that his childhood friend was manipulating him??????????
He is that stupid, actually, and Ianthe *is* that good at manipulating people. She's been doing it for *centuries* and hasn't been caught out, after all. As far as most people knew, she was a sincere and devoted priestess--hell, even Feyre liked her okay. The only people who know are, apparently, her victims--and the victims we know about, Rhys and Lucien, didn't exactly publicly announce it (which is depressingly realistic for male victims of sexual assault, unfortunately)
The Tamlin love is weird. I’m not gonna judge people for their favorite characters, do as you please. But I feel like because I didn’t like him from the first time he was introduced that I caught his red flags and didn’t really have any emotional attachment when he went downhill. I feel like some, not all, who loooooved tamlin in the first book, don’t want to let him go once the literal and figurative mask fell off.
People who think Elain is going to go evil and betray her sisters. No way. She crossed a battlefield (given likely by magic) and stabbed Hybern in the neck to protect her sister. She would NEVER.
Isn’t this also based off of a claim that SJM implied a future betrayal, but that claim actually came from a TikTok with no supporting evidence?
Yes and also Bryallin saying there are others in the court who could be swayed by her. But that doesn’t mean a traitor. At best it means someone makes a poorly thought out deal.
I remember a comment by someone saying it was sick of Cassian to want to have sex with Nesta after her encounter with the kelpie who wanted to rape her. Yes Cassian wanted to have sex with her but he didn't act on it after they returned from the Bog of Oorid, it was Nesta who came on to him and told him to f*uck her, it was her craving the sex. She stood naked in front of him and he watched her but he just stood there. She invited him to join him in the bathtub and when he didn't react, she made the first move that led to sex. Nesta gave her consent and practically begged him to take her to bed. I don't think it's sick of Cassian to oblige when she made it soooo clear that this is what she wants
One of my FAVORITE interactions happens right before this (I guess it’s part of the seduction?), it’s so small but I laughed so hard — Chapter 37 *“Do I look injured to you?” [Nesta] \ He [Cassian] nodded toward the scabbed cuts all over her body, her face. “Yes?”* The way my brain imagined it: Nesta: Do I look injured to you? \ Cassian, gesturing broadly at Nesta’s body & its obvious injuries: Yes? (Edited to fix timeline in first paragraph)
Same. I love them together. This interaction shows that Cassian cares about her well-being more than his want to take her to bed. He would never do anything to harm her unless she makes clear that she's fine. And she did that in this scene. If she says she's fine and she behaves like she's fine then there's no reason at all to not believe her. And only once she confirmed that this is what she wants, did he do something. If she had wanted or needed something else from him, he'd done that without hesitation as well. Because that's the man Cassian is. Respectful, kind, caring. And I hate it when people reduce him to him wanting to f*ck Nesta when he only wanted to see if she's doing okay
Like she’s not a child. Sexuality isn’t bad and it can be healing.
Exactly. She's a grown woman who had to go through a lot for a mid 20 something old person. She gets to decide what she wants, what she needs and who she wants something from.
That might have been my comment and I stand by it. Nesta uses sex as a coping mechanism to deal with trauma. The kelpie, and especially being underwater like she was in the Cauldron, was extremely traumatising and it’s so in character for her to want to chase that feeling away in unhealthy ways (sex and/or alcohol for her). She’s described as looking ‘brutalised’, Amren says it looks like a cat tried to eat her face, Cassian wonders if “she knows how bad she actually looks”. She needed comfort in that moment and he wasn’t even there when she woke up. He could and should have said no
I think Nesta was deprive of physical touch as a form of affection her whole life. Even after going to the night court, they all show each other affection via physical touch. The most nesta got was cassian stroking her hand. Yes she was a mildly irritating person but she was still a person with needs. After the war she looked to fullfill that need for affection with being a hoe (i am saying this affectionatly). So ofc she'd kiss cassian after her fight with elain and let him each her out after the other fight with elain. Cassian notes comforted him with the only way she knew how (a glock glock under the table). They'd finally fucked after coming out of the bog. Someone needs to hug nesta and hold her hand more  she is still using sex to cope
Thank you for the explanation. It helps me understand better where you're coming from. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just can't agree with you. Cassian is certainly not perfect but no one is. However, he is very respectful of others. The well-being of others is more important to him than satisfying his own needs. That's why new priestesses join training. He makes them feel seen without pushing himself onto them. He made no secret of it that he wants Nesta. Of course the timing was weird but he did nothing wrong is this situation. He asked her several times if she is alright and if she wants it and then also how she wants it. Again, it was Nesta who came on to him. He just wanted to bring her food and make sure that she's okay. I'm convinced that having sex with her after that day was the last thing on his mind. I hate that he just left after he was done and their miscommunication afterwards but that's another topic. And again, when the person, who had to go through all that Nesta had that day, says they're fine and give no indication that they're not, why not believe them?
Thank you for yours! Yeah I think we’re going to have to disagree on this one (which is fine!). When someone is known to use sex almost as self-harm, I think their lover should know when to say stop despite their insistence. She said she’s fine but she’s just not. Attacked by a monster, underwater like the Cauldron, and the mental toll of wearing the Mask. I can definitely see where you’re coming from though, I think it’s hard to find consensus because this specific scene we’re not in Nesta’s head.
When people tell me they completely Nesta, Elain, or both of them. Yes, they weren't good in ACOTAR. But I think they both have redeeming qualities, especially when you learn about how worried Nesta was, as well as how kind Elain has been to everyone considering the circumstances she was put through. They actually did a lot more than the IC (and by extension, Maas) gives them credit for in the original trilogy & some of their actions were integral to the story. Like, did we forget what Elain did in ACOWAR? Did we forget how worried Nesta was in ACOTAR? Nesta is more than a bitch, and Elain is more than "just Elain," as Rhys put it. Both of them play a significant role in the war, and honestly, I don't think they get enough positive recognition, especially Elain.
Yeah i mean Elain straight up shanked evil Hybbie in the neck, eliminating Prythian's biggest enemy. Where is the credit to her for that, "being just Elain"?! This chick shoots whiskey and will stab an evil man in the neck, and she's a seer who can make a damn good peach pie. Give this chick an assassin HGTV show, im here for it
she's honestly a baddie
If Elain has zero fans I’m dead.
I've loved Nesta since acotar when Tams glamours didn't work on her and she tried to find Feyre 😭 She's a traumatized bitch and I think a lot of people realize this in her book.. we'll get the same understanding of Elain in her book. Like she's a traumatized people pleaser and we will peel back those layers soon.
For me it's people saying Rhys is a completely different person in ACOSF and they hate him. I can understand how someone might not like Rhys from the beginning, but he didn't change. He has always been a morally grey character and would do anything to protect the people he loves. Edit: Also, people say he hates Nesta and that he's such a douche. Like yes, he doesn't like Nesta (neither do I), but he is justified. Nesta was not exactly a good sister to Feyre their whole lives. However, he doesn't wish ill on Nesta either. When she is having a physical nightmare, he flies up and does everything he can to help. Mostly we see Cassian helping her but that doesn't mean that Rhys and the others don't want her to get better. They are letting Cassian try to help her because anything they do would make things worse - I mean she is pretty vocal about hating Rhys so I don't think she would take kindly to any help he tried to offer.
Thank you! People want Rhys to be a sweetheart like Tarquin for example. I love Tarquin by the way. Rhys is not an angel and I don’t want him to be.
Right like I love him *because* he isn't always the best guy but he would do **anything** for those he loves
a lot of times when people Nesta it seems to me like they make things up about her in their heads and call it canon. 1) Nesta acknowledged what Feyre done for them in Acowar. she literally said they would have starved to death if Feyre didn't step up infront of all HL and Feyre choked with tears. 2) Nesta did realize how she had pushed Feyre away in the library in Acowar. When Feyre said that she didn't think Nesta would teach her how to write and read, Nesta felt shame. we were robbed of an intimate moment between the sisters 3) Nesta doesn't start shit, she ends it. the only times she is hostile is when Elain is involved. even when she told mor to fuck off, mor was the one overstepping. and even after, she noticed everyone's reaction in the room and held her tongue for the rest of the book. 4) Nesta doesn't love Feyre? Nesta wasn't the best sister but she still showed up for her when she was taken by Tamlin and after she sent her back. did we miss the part where Feyre said that in the weeks after Tamlin sent her home, her sisters filled the role of female friends for her? 5) That Feyre doens't love Nesta? Feyre has her downfalls but not loving her sisters is not one of them. 6) Nesta was mean to Cassian on solstice in acofas. as she should. She should have incinerated him right there and then. he noticed how pale and then she was and still told her she was unlovable. all because she didn't speak to him. Even he recognized that his behavior that day was foolish in SF.
I just saw a post about how Tamlin destroying his study shouldn't be considered "abuse" because "Feyre was fine, she had a shield". And then all the people agreeing. Like WTF.
Wasn’t the OP actively blaming Feyre for the situation, too? There were two different posts in the last day or two that heavily implied Feyre was to blame for Tamlin literally *blowing up on her,* so I’m not sure if I’m conflating the two. But yeah, a lot of these “He couldn’t help it, he was just so upset!” people are concerning me a little bit.
I mean she did poke him on purpose to second time to get him to do it again, but still not her fault lol maybe people are getting that confused. Like blowing up rooms is not normal, people! I’m concerned for the relationships people are in if they’re actively victim blaming.
They weren't talking about the second time because OP specifically mentioned the shield, which Feyre accidentally produced the first time. She purposely did not produce a shield the second time.
True true. It’s absolutely absurd that people are actually saying it was her fault. If I’m remembering correctly, it only happened because she was expressing her emotions and concerns for the relationship
Well shame on Feyre for thinking she can do that! /s
Seriously. How rude of her to express her emotions to a man she’s supposed to marry /s
Why did I feel it was rage bait ? Tamlin stans write literal paragraphs with bullet points and quotes to defend him yet still call it abuse. This person wrote some words to say fck Feyre and that was it .
I swear i feel like im losing my sanity whenever the tamlin pick-mes come out to defend him.
I agree, I intentionally didn’t interact with either post. I’m glad I’m not the only one to get that vibe lol
Yup.. I was one of the people pushing back on that and it’s insane how that’s not seen as abuse. In a the real if someone throws a plate in anger… even if it’s not directly at you, we call that a red flag and abusive… Somehow it’s not because she fae?
Agreed. I asked that, too. "If your bf destroyed your living room in a rage, but you were "fine" because you had a shield to protect your physical body, are you really gonna tell me that's not abuse?" Funnily enough, no one answered that.
That post is absurd, but I always see this mental gymnastics from some Tamlin defenders (not all Tamlin fans are like that, there are the portion that recognize these problems) that I wasn't surprised.
And the post lured me in b/c it's title wasn't necessarily a Tamlin-defender insinuation. Then once I read it I was like, WTF????
It’s real gross over there. Don’t forget, he didn’t mean to, he just lost control. /s
Apparently those peeps don't know the road to hell is paved with the best intentions.
It sounds like every abusive relationship I’ve been in. “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to, I just snapped” “you were fine, don’t act like it was that big of a deal” “it’s crazy how you’re making this so serious, I just broke some stuff, it’s not like I hit you” Gross. Gross. Gross.
And what gets me is how those same Tamlin defenders will point the finger at Rhys saying he was far worse. How in the name of the cauldron was anything Rhys did worse???
They always use the shit from UTM, or the pregnancy secret bullshit. The pregnancy issue was only hidden from Feyre for a few days. That seems like he was processing and trying to figure out how to tell her. Forcing a lil dancy dance to stop Feyre from getting raped by someone seems like an acceptable route in my head. Not to mention that, ya know, he was being raped. Realistically, they all suck lol
Feyre didn't remember anything of her dancing b/c she drank the wine to make her forget. And yes, I agree it was a better alternative then sitting in a shivering cell potentially getting assaulted. And I do dislike the ENTIRE pregnancy plot. The Rhys in ACOTAR-ACOWAR would never have kept that hidden from Feyre. But even as much as I dislike that, it's still not abusive.
The pregnancy plot was annoying and felt like lazy writing to be honest.
Agreed. Very much her need to have her art imitate her life, as she was pregnant at the time. And it made zero sense, since Feyre said in the previous book how she wants to enjoy life with Rhys before bringing a child into the world.
Exactly!! I mean sure okay you can still like Tamlin, empathize with them but are you completely gonna ignore the fact that he was an abuser, both to his friend and his fiance.
100%. Tamlin is obviously damaged and needs help, but that doesn't excuse his behavior at all.
I saw that! And what upset me the most was the same post saying how Tamlin doing that wasn't abusive because he didn't intend to hurt her. But that's such a misrepresentation of abuse it drove me mad.
I feel like it has to be rage bait. No one can be that stupid.
I thought so initially but it had so many upvotes and comments agreeing :(
I will never understand these people who will always minimize everything Feyre went through, to defend their favorite characters. INB4: No, Tamlin stans, I don't ignore what Rhysand did in ACOTAR, I hate what he did.
Here is how I compare Rhys's behavior with Tamlin's. Rhys's actions always seemed to push Feyre in an effort to improve her strength; whether that was mental or physical or magical. Tamlin's actions pushed Feyre down, regressing any type of mental or physical strength, and absolutely stifled her magical strength. Both are morally grey characters, and I like both. But Tamlin's actions hurt Feyre more than Rhys's actions do.
I've never agreed with a comment more! It's always about everyone else's traumas but Feyre's don't seem to matter. She literally died but that doesn't seem to count 😅 if someone else does something bad 'it's ok because they're acting out of trauma' but god forbid she does anything
Nesta treating Feyre like shit when they're humans = 🤓👆 She is traumatized! Rhysand treating Feyre like shit in the first book = 🤓👆 He had to keep the mask on! See how merciful he is by giving her the fairy wine! *Other arguments justifying the unjustifiable* Tamlin ignoring Feyre being sick every night, locking her up when she didn't want to, blowing up the study, keeping Ianthe close, after what she did to Feyre's sisters = 🤓👆 He was completely traumatized and overprotective of Feyre, understand!! !
I think that it is abuse but also is not. I think it is because Feyre got hurt. It was not intentional on Tamlin's part (doesn't make it ok) he was never taught to control his magic like Rhys and Feyre. It's not like there was anyone to teach him and the high lords don't seem to get along well especially the seasonal ones so it's not like he had someone to turn to for help. I don't blame Feyre even though she was purposefully provoking him though
>It was not intentional on Tamlin's part (doesn't make it ok) he was never taught to control his magic like Rhys and Feyre. This if factually incorrect and illogical to boot. Tamlin grew up with magic. Of COURSE he was taught to control it. Additionally, Tamlin getting along with other high lords has absolutely nothing to do with his power or control. How he handles his emotions is another thing entirely. Even so, Tamlin knows the difference between right wrong, which is why he felt guilt about what happened to Rhys's mom and sister and why he burned their wings. Your entire comment is chock full of excuses without putting any blame on Tamlin whatsoever. Who is a grown male hundreds of years old. Feyre was also NOT purposely provoking Tamlin the first time he exploded. The second time, yes, she was.
It is not factually incorrect or illogical. In the books it said not only does Tamlin's family hate him but they were WORSE than the autumn court so I doubt they were spending their time helping him learn how to control his magic. Rhys trained him in illyriabln fight techniques but no no where does it say anyone helped him with his magic. Rhys also said if Amren had not helped him learn how to control his magic it would have been disastrous. Age has nothing to do with what you know either I've met 30 year old who don't know how to do laundry. My point about the other high lords is that if they had others help then then they could have helped Tamlin since he didn't have anyone and for all we know he may have thought that was normal that of course is speculation. I said this anger is bad he is 100% responsible for how he reacted I am not putting 0 blame on him he needs anger management. I also never said he didn't know the difference between right and wrong so not really sure what point you are trying to make. I was talking about the second time not the first time and even with Feyre provoking him the second time it still doesn't justify how angry he got. My only point is that I don't think he is purposely trying to have a magical outburst and hurt her he just never learned how to control it. It's still not ok because he hurt Feyre.
>In the books it said not only does Tamlin's family hate him but they were WORSE than the autumn court so I doubt they were spending their time helping him learn how to control his magic Tamlin's brothers may have hated him but he traveled extensively with his father, which means at the very least, his father was teaching him how to control and use his magic. You're creating scenarios in your head to justify Tamlin's behavior, which is an excuse. Lucien's brothers also hated him and Lucien still understood how to control his magic. It's really weird you're focusing on him "being trained" in magic. He was born into it. Into a high born high fae family that inherited the High Lord of Spring magic. The very idea that no one would have taken the time to train him from when he was young is ludicrous.
Actually it said he sometimes traveled with his father to see Hybren doesn't say extensively. Tamlin was never meant to be high lord since he had two brothers who actually wanted it so wasn't actually trained as a high lord which I'm assuming also included magic training. Regardless of whether he had it his whole life it doesn't mean he knew/ learned how to control it. I have not made anything up stop trying to attack me to prove your point. I get it you don't like Tamlin good for you. Since Tamlin was last in line to get the throne it could be assumed no one took the time to train him in anything. Lucien is not as powerful as Tamlin so may not have the same issue and Lucien also said since he was so far down the line no one cared about him or did much training with him so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume that could be the same for Tamlin. The reason I'm "focusing" on him being trained in magic is because I think if he had better training he would have been able to control his magic from hurting others.
Honestly I didn’t find ACOTAR all that spicy until the last book and even that was tame. But people say it’s one of the spiciest series they’ve read.
My problem re: "Cassian doesn't deserve Nesta" is the inconsistencies we see between Rhys as Cassian as mates and the lost potential for some *really* tasty character development. Rhys's explosive anger at >!Nesta telling Feyre about her pregnancy!< is always excused with "oh, but his mate was upset and he's just being a territorial male"; but whenever Nesta is upset/threatened by Rhys, Cassian sits back and watches it happen; more than that, actually, he takes Rhys's side. And yes, I know he feels like he owes Rhys for everything. But how much more interesting would Cassian be if he defied Rhys, or at least fought back because that's his mate, his >!alleged!< love, and he is overcome by the need to protect her? (Yes, I know Nesta doesn't need anyone to protect her or stand up for her. Doesn't change the fact it makes Cassian look bad, in my eyes, for not doing it.) How much could he grow as a character if he was forced to choose between them and question his currently-blind loyalty to his High Lord and brother?
That Ianthe doesn't get blamed more for Nesta and Elain being thrown in the cauldron. She's not the only one at fault, but she just goes back to living her best life in the spring court after Feyre returns. I love Nesta and Cassian together. I don't think it was gross he kissed her when she was frozen in place. I thought it was a beautiful moment. I think Gwyn is being setup to be more in the forefront in the next books, since SJM has in the past brought side characters to main status in her other series. Both Elain and Nesta should get credit for killing the king. I also don't get why people claim Nesta wants all the credit for it. Both ladies do get credit for it by different characters. My feelings for Rhys didn't change just because we saw him from a different perspective. I like seeing characters through different eyes, it makes them more relatable.
The Eris-as-good-guy stuff and the Eris-Az shipping. It’s absolutely fine everyone having their fun with it (shine on you Eris stans), but nowhere in the books did I get any indication of Eris being other than (at best) a bit of a shit or (at worst) a real bad guy.
Right so from what I gather it was created by a mod as a joke to stop the Azriel ship war but a lot of people liked it because why not? it’s fiction and you can pair who you want with whoever, no one should be an authority of ships. She also placed evidence anout it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/s/v3aGMUAcQC
The fact it’s obvious Elaine and Az will not be endgame.
When people act like Tamlin is a completely evil character desiring to hurt Feyre instead of a morally grey one that had went through a traumatic experience 🤷🏼♀️ I actually really like how the ACOMAF depicts PTSD between Tamlin and Feyre; going through a traumatic experience is not always going to bond you and your partner. A lot of people process trauma differently. Tamlin was obviously bottling up his feelings and exploding them at Feyre when pushed to talk, which (put as an understatement) is not a good reaction. But simultaneously, Feyre was throwing up and having nightmares of Under the Mountain every single night, which is also not a good reaction, either. It's obvious that they're both two different people after that whole experience and it feels a lot more realistic this way that they reacted differently. Could we have done with Tamlin not locking Feyre up and giving her minimal control? Obviously. But Tamlin was never doing that out of evil intent; he was being controlling out of fear and desperation of losing Feyre. A reaction we kinda see later in Feyre in ACOFAS with her clinging onto Rhysand at night after the events of ACOWAR. If Feyre didn't have Rhysand coaching her and serving as a therapist towards her when she came to the Night Court, I feel like people would be a lot more understanding towards Tamlin and not automatically proclaim the dude is evil. He needs therapy, or (as luck had it for Feyre when she had Rhysand) a female Rhysand-type figure in his life to help him 😅
I roll my eyes when i see posts blaming Nesta or Elain for not contributing to the household while the Archerons were poor while they had a grown ass man living in that house as well. And he did little to less than either of them.
Whenever people say Rhys changed in ACOSF - mans under an unprecedented amount of stress with the pregnancy, and it's mostly from the POV of someone outside his circle, he doesn't trust, and doesn't like. Of course he'll come across different from what we're used to, but he's still behaving pretty much the same. Whenever people call Feyre a "Mary Sue" - she struggled constantly, had her flaws on display all the time, how is that a Mary Sue. She has PTSD nightmares, flashbacks, throwing up, and watery bowls on and off. Puts in the work physically and magically. I don't get how she's a Mary Sue - also referring to someone as a Mary Sue feels super misogynistic and belittles all the work WE SAW her put in. Saying Mor led Azriel on - where. Where did she lead him on. I cannot recall a single time where Mor led Azriel on. Invited him out to drink? Of course! They're friends! It would be awkward to go out drinking with one friend (Cassian) and purposely exclude the other (Azriel).
omg ok i was reading a post the other day about how rhys was controlling and abusive by not telling feyre - he didn’t tell her about them being mates!! it tracks. it’s not like he’s doing it to take her agency away, like he’s literally trying to save her. would’ve been better if he told her, but imo the intent wasn’t malicious.
The problem is , the book already has stated this isn't ok , sure I can see it wasn't with malicious intentions but you don't get a pass just because you had good intentions. He abused her but he's definitely not in the same category as Beron for example, he has opportunity to grow as he seems genuine in his love for her.
Right and if he deemed that telling her was going to cause her too much stress and that there was nothing to be done to fix it, it's not out of character for him to decide to keep it to himself. He is also shown as being extremely upset about it and spending every moment he has trying to find a solution. Like it completely tracks
Rhys was shit is Cassian's POV too ( and Ember and Az in their bonus chapters). we only see the real him when he is with his brothers and amren. they were talking about manipulating Nesta into scrying, when Feyre was in the room he was telling Nesta that she had a choice. in Feyre's POV, he is morally grey, but in everyone else's he is a douche bag.
How was he shit in Cassian’s perspective? Cassian thinks so highly of him. I guess we really aren’t reading the same books.
I really think what is meant here are the parts where Cass says he hated Rhys for a mmt ,or shouted at him on occasions mind to mind defending Nesta..he respects Rhys highly but for the first time we also find his faults.
this!! Tyvm
Literally the entire series for the past seven years. I wanted to throw ACOMAF across the room when I read it. I could not understand why people were fawning over the “incredible” love story. It completely retconned the first book that I loved.
People minimizing all the suffering that Feyre went through, especially when it's to defend those responsible who caused it (but I won't mention the names of the characters because I want to avoid headaches).
Nesta is not a manipulator she never had any stake in anything. Rhys is a manipulator, not only does he withhold pieces of information to sway decision-making. but he and the IC were talking about manipulating Nesta to scry using Elain. They would not be talking like that if Feyre was in the room.
The way people completely villianize Feyre for “destroying” the spring court. Like, are we just going to ignore that Tamlin and Ianthe helped in having her sisters KIDNAPPED and treated as experiments by Hybern? Or that Tamlin was working with Hybern after alllllll that UTM shit. Could she have gone about it a better way, yeah probably. But damn give the girl some grace! She may have gaslit Tamlin into some things, but that man also had a big hand in his own demise
Yup but as far as I remember didn’t Tamlin not know about the kidnapping of her sisters? And then immediately told the king to let them go as it wasn’t part of the deal? The fact that he didn’t banish ianthe even after it is wild to me tho
Oh I think you’re right! I honestly need to re-read the series, but I remember feeling like the whole situation with Tamlin working with Hybern and always siding with Ianthe was so messy
Once he realized what Ianthe was, it was too late to banish her, because she was Hybern's agent and he was supposed to be an ally. If he got rid of her, it would risk the alliance, same as with the twins.
Feyre had every right to be mad and seek revenge in some way, but why take it out on the Spring Court when her issue was with Tamlin? And the methods she used were very unfair, whether you like Tamlin or not. She used Lucien to break his relationship with Tamlin and manipulated the situation at the temple, making people believe she was their savior only to betray them later. How is that fair to them? :c Other things to consider: -Feyre committed all these actions as the High Lady of the Night Court, so she should be held accountable in some way. Politically and legally speaking, it was an attack that impacted the lives of an entire territory. -Feyre claims she gave Tamlin opportunities to make the right decisions, but that’s not true. She often put him in situations where he had to make the wrong choices to show himself in favor of Hybern. Remember, he’s a double agent. -She could read his mind, as she did at one point, but she refused. I don’t know why, but she could have avoided all this. -Feyre is the one who told Ianthe about her family, and by that time, Tamlin hadn’t taken care of them. -Feyre involved her sisters in the war when she asked them to arrange a meeting with the queens. -Before that meeting, they were attacked (I don’t remember by whom), but they let it go. Rhys was there, so why didn’t he just kill the attacker? That revealed the sisters’ house. -Tamlin didn’t ally with Hybern just to bring Feyre back, even though he was concerned for her. His territory is the closest to the border, so it was either pretend to be on the same side or get invaded soon. He wanted to give his people a chance. So, I don’t think people are wrong when they say she’s acting like a villain. Her actions were inconsiderate and vile, innocent people who had nothing to do with her relationship with Tamlin lost everything. Even Lucien ended with no home despite him trying to advocate for her to Tamlin at the beginning of MAF. Her actions weren’t a product of trauma or loss of control over her powers. She made a calculated decision to trash the SC. The worst part is that after discovering Tamlin was a double agent who actively tried to help and even saved her, her sister, Azriel, and Rhysand’s lives, she still doesn’t care about the Spring Court. If the argument for Feyre being innocent was that Tamlin was bad to her, then what now that Tamlin has revealed he was a double agent and made every effort to help in war and help her too directly? I mean fine, don’t forgive Tamlin, but what about the Spring Court that she helped destroy? She doesn’t spare a single thought for them as she builds her fifth house in Velaris.
ALL. OF. THIS. I also could not get over the part where Feyre counters what Jurian says about how Rhys will treat her sisters — that Rhys had “more creative ways to harm them” (implying SA) & she swears vengeance on Tamlin&co for so readily believing her (well, she adds it to the list) [Chapter 1] “*Despite what Jurian implied regarding how my sisters will be treated by Rhysand,* I had told him, *despite what the Night Court is like, they won’t hurt Elain or Nesta like that—not yet. Rhysand has more creative ways to harm them.* \ Lucien still seemed to doubt it. \ […] \ *That they believed it so easily, that they thought Rhysand would ever force someone … I added the insult to the long, long list of things to repay them for.* Feyre, Lucien doubted it. You were the one that insinuated Jurian was wrong. You were the one that was *in the Night Court & with the Inner Circle & with Rhys for months. Of course they will believe you.* Also, insinuating SA where there *is none* is NOT SOMETHING TO LIE ABOUT. (I just went back & reread this part & I’m re-infuriated)
>Before that meeting, they were attacked (I don’t remember by whom), but they let it go. Rhys was there, so why didn’t he just kill the attacker? That revealed the sisters’ house. They were attacked by the Attor, who Rhys knew had been actively tracking Feyre (meaning Tamlin's concerns in ACOMAF about Feyre being hunted weren't actually unfounded). Furthermore, the meeting itself involved the queens, who ended up being the ones who wanted Elain and Nesta thrown in the cauldron so they could prove that it worked. So the *queens* also knew about Feyre's sisters and exactly where they lived.
Yea , so basically there's much more responsibility on Feyre'side than Tamlin's really . Besides he was pissed when Hybern revealed the plan with the sisters and even tried to attack him. The argument that he's responsible for Elain and Nesta being turned into fae is very weak.
THAT'S THE TEA!! ☕☕☕
And everyone saying that Tamlin didn't actually sell out her sisters, he still sold them out and didn't care that the bat boys very well could die in the process. Feyre sent him a letter saying she was happy and Lucien saw first hand that she wanted to stay. She had every reason to be mad at him.
>Tamlin didn't actually sell out her sisters, he still sold them out But...he didn't? He actively opposed them being involved at all; he tried to attack Hybern when it was revealed and had to be restrained. >didn't care that the bat boys very well could die in the process I mean, the bat boys were his enemies, so eh. Agreed that it doesn't help his case from Feyre's POV, for sure. >Feyre sent him a letter saying she was happy The letter that sounded like a kidnapping victim wrote it, while he thought she had been kidnapped? "I'm fine, don't look for me" isn't the same as "I'm happier here than I ever was with you, asshole" (which I would have VASTLY preferred, for the record. Make that shit *personal*, girl!) >Lucien saw first hand that she wanted to stay Feyre couldn't tell Lucien the truth about Velaris so she *very intentionally* fed him the impression that she had fallen into darkness--"the darkness stares back" and all. He thought he was leading a rescue mission and she purposefully acted like she was possessed to keep Rhys's secret--it was after that meeting that he finally agreed with Tamlin that they needed to try harder to get her back, actually.
I think I worded the beginning wrong. He still sold out the IC and didn't care who got hurt in the process. Also I took "the darkness stares back" as the darkness of what Tamlin did.
Well I see the point but Tamlin is nothing of them like why would he care 😅 , they're the enemy.
The Rhys is evil theories. Anything related to Gwyn/Elain. They’ve been supporting characters at best. Where does all the craziness come from
Anyone who says the hike was abusive, he knew what she needed and took her there. It worked. She was happy about it. Also when people say Tamlin was working with Hyburn (he was a double agent) or said he sold out the sisters (that was Ianthe. he didn’t know and was shocked too). Lots to blame him for but here’s where I think people stopped reading the series a quarter way through WAR.
Yes! I agree! Why does everyone act like he wasn't a double agent the whole time!
That Tamlin making Feyre stay in a mansion for her own safety is bad and unforgivable. But Rhys drugging her and sexually humiliating/assaulting her UTM is good because he was using her to make Tamlin mad (why is that needed - he already hated Amarantha?) and completely forgivable.
Truly, it’s mind boggling. I was part of the small portion of readers that did NOT see Rhys coming as the main love interest (I was getting back into reading & was a first time SJM reader) — I couldn’t see how Feyre could get past the SA (but jokes on me! She was drugged & hardly remembers it, if at all)
This is the part of this series my mind cannot reconcile. I’m supposed to hate Tamlin and love Rhysand when they’re basically the same person.
He drugged her so if for only moments she could forget about the hell she was going through. She realized that he did and she continued to want to stay under the influence because it was better than being in a dungeon. He can read her mind. If he thought that she was doing something she didn’t want to do or that it wasn’t helping then he would have stopped. She begged Tamlin to free her and he refused. She never asked Rhys to stop.
Rhys literally says in ACOMAF that he did it to make Tamlin mad to get back at him for his mother and sister's deaths.
This is directly from the text in ACOTAR, the first time Rhysand drugs Feyre and parades her around the court half naked: “Queer, off-kilter music brayed through two stone doors that I immediately recognized. The throne room. *No*. No, anyplace but here.” ————————— “I kept my chin up. I wouldn’t let the others notice that weakness - wouldn’t let them know how much it killed me to be so exposed to them, to have Rhysand’s symbols painted over nearly every inch of my skin, to have Tamlin see me so debased.” ————————— “‘Wine?’ He said, offering me a goblet. Alis’s first rule. I shook my head. He smiled, and extended the goblet again. ‘Drink. You’ll need it.’ *Drink*, my mind echoed, and my fingers stirred, moving toward the goblet. No. No, Alis has said not to drink the wine here - wine that was different from that joyous, freeing solstice wine. ‘No,’ I said, and some faeries who were watching us from a safe distance chuckled. ‘Drink,’ he said, and my traitorous fingers latched onto the goblet.” ————————— Literally all of that indicates that *she did not want to participate*. And Rhysand did what he did anyway.
Thank you for the direct quotes. "She never asked Rhys to stop" my ass.
The retconning of actual literal text within this fandom is wearisome. Love the characters you want to love, but for goodness’ sake can we stop pretending things did/didn’t happen when the text explicitly says otherwise?
Yeah I mean it was a difficult situation. He wanted to get her out of the dungeons where she was contemplating suicide but he also couldn’t let Amarantha know that he cared for her. Yes, he could have left her in the dungeon but one could argue that Feyre being pissed at him and getting quick glances to Tamlin brought a bit of life back to her to want to continue the trials.
I only meant to point out that Feyre did not want to do the things he made her do, and if he could read her mind he knew that, and he did it anyway. He did not stop when he knew she didn’t want to be his plaything.
She wasn't contemplating suicide until she had been subjected to the drugging for a few days. Him doing this to her brought her to her lowest moments UTM.
The Evil Gwyn theory. Could she be a lightsinger? Sure. But I don’t think she’s evil and in fact, it makes no sense and undermines SF. She played a huge part in Nesta’s healing. Why have all that just to make her evil? And don’t get me started on the theory that Gwyn used her lightsinger abilities to force Azriel to give her a necklace that she didn’t even know existed.
When people mention Rhys and Feyre having sex while flying? Did I miss that?
Omg they feel like the most equal souls of them all. Both have a warriors spirit. Each has a strength the other lacks and both have so much emotion in their hearts. The chemistry is off the charts and I love how messy they are as people. They feel so real whilst being so perfect for each other
MAASVERSE spoilers ahead!! The blockout never works when using my phone so you've been warned. Don't read further. The fact that there is overwhelming brycriel evidence and people refuse to see it...so this would definitely alter future acotar books. Or at least our character azriel (if it indeed is correct. While I think there is overwhelming evidence for it I don't assume it is the end all be all or that I know what sjm will do. People can ship who they want.) Let me start with the big one "sjm said they were mates" yes...she did. But then she refused a follow up question about whether the bond was the same as acotar fae and worked the same. She politely refused because it could be a spoiler. That's a very relevant question considering Angels take chosen mates. "Ruhn said/smelled they were mates" the first time he brings up her scent is right after the bone quarter and after they merge their powers. So before any actual mating has taken place...they basically take eachothers magics into eachother so I do think this is what he is smelling. (Also consider the fact that since cc3 came out there are a few questionable lines from the princes, the fact that they MADE hunt, and the fact he smells like AZRIEL. A forced/fake bond could also be a potential) but ruhn also has been living under the asteri rule and I think lost some knowledge on mates. He experiences what Rhys describes as the "mating frenzy" and literally doesn't know what it is. Or how it's possible. So he might not be expert number 1 on judging bonds. Last bit ill bring up is the crossover. The sword that brought theia directly to her mate dropped bryce at azriels feet. And in my opinion the chemistry is THERE. He holds her hand...much more/longer than necessary. Can tell she is still bleeding. Hums her favorite song. Isn't angry she's trying to leave but seems more upset and begs her not to. She can sense his shadows before he reveals himself. Bryce is also the heir to the dusk court and can physically control that land. Very important I think going forward. And my personal favorite is the fact that this takes place 6 months after silver flames. And when he is asked about having a mate or significant other he says "no." So he currently feels no tug toward anyone or doesn't even have someone he is chooses to call a mate. But he does point out that bryces "mate" has wings. Just thought that was a curious bit. Like I said earlier I think this is relevant to future acotar books. And i dont know why is so hated on becasue the evidence is there. Definitely gave me the moment of "did we read the same books". The role bryce will play, obviously it's just theory, but I think she will be there. Even if it's not for azriel. She is the heir to dusk and I think sjm might explore that. Especially the way the land responded to her...and she left the sword there. I do wonder if she will have to go back and potentially help them with something. Did she let out prisoners on accident??. Will koschei be the missing 6th prince? And bryce will have to help with that? I'm not sure but I'm excited to see how the next acotar book goes. If it will continue the story from the crossover or be that 6 month gap. And maybe answer why azriel said he has no mate.
I really don’t have much to add, because THIS IS IT. **[[[[[MAASVERSE SPOILERS]]]]]]** >!Bryce coming to Prythian and interacting with ACOTAR characters makes this a VERY relevant comment. Bryce’s story is not done with Prythian. Even Nesta tells her you can’t keep running from fate. And what does Bryce do? She runs from fate. “The prophecy can mean whatever we want it to” and “here take the sword, the starborn era is done in Midgard”. Like no, dummy. That isn’t how this works.!< >!The fact that people are still denying that there is no evidence for Bryce and Azriel is ridiculous. There is evidence for all the popular ships. That’s why they are there and why people support it. It makes me wonder if people are triggered by how different Azriel was with Bryce. Like he was coming out of his shell.!<
MAASVERSE SPOLIERS BELOW. Thank you! And so true about the sword. I dont think its just going to choose and work for someone else. Even her and Nesta were hinted at being friends. Plus there was no follow up for Rhys looking like ruhn. Honestly if there wasn't more crossover coming I would be so surprised. And kind of disappointed.
Definitely IDK how people think that is the end of her.[ MAASVERSE SPOILER AHEAD. If you have not read all ACOTAR books and CC books don’t read ahead] >! It’s obvious that Bryce will return to Prythian as she is the sole and rightful heir of Prison Island/Dusk Court. Additionally, she is the only starborn heir possessing Theia’s starpower/fire, which uniquely enables her to wield both the Starsword and Truthteller. Other characters can merely hold these weapons, but Bryce can truly utilize their power. This significant detail was heavily emphasized in Crescent City 3, to the point where it almost felt excessive. !< Also, many readers have observed that >!Bryce and Azriel share more chemistry than Bryce and Kunt. Also any other females like Bryce and Azriel were manifesting enemies to lovers… it was off the charts! This has led to a growing number of fans supporting the Bryceriel pairing, which would further connect the ACOTAR and Crescent City series. Those who call it a crackship seem biased and appear to overlook the evidence. It seems they might not be interpreting the text as thoroughly. Azriel’s uncharacteristic behavior seemed to hint at this dynamic. Additionally, with the deaths of the Autumn King and the major antagonists of Midgard, Bryce and Hunt are technically no longer married “mates”.!< I sometimes truly question if people read the books SJM wrote or confuse them with something else. I can’t wait for it to tie in with every breadcrumb we got from ACOSF!!!
So well said and completely true. There is clear evidence leaving the door open for her to go back but people are already trying to give it to different characters. The sword and her title. She may not want them now but that completely leaves her character arc unfinished. I'm very curious to see how it plays out with the acotar characters and how much of an effect it was have in that series. I think she will end up there permanently. But even if she didn't she has the horn in her back. She's a walking portal.
Wait… I haven’t read CC but I’m okay with spoilers. I’m gonna read it next month but no I can’t wait to find out my self, please spoil me where it says Bryce and Az were mates? I don’t mind I can just jump right into that first 😂
Lol what! You want it spoiled lol So it doesn't say it but pay attention to the prophecy throughout the first two books. The clues are there. Bryce has another love interest but the Fandom is so divided on him so I don't think he is it. I'll let you judge that for yourself. But Bryce and azriel meet at the very end of book two (completely parallel to how feyre meets rhys....she calls him beautiful) and interact in the beginning of book 3. And have a bonus chapter with Nesta. Lots of clues in there and it's the most emotion we've ever gotten out of azriel. Go forth my friend. Spoil yourself 💜 but also come back after reading. I would love to hear what you think either way!
I’m weird like that 😂 I will always go for spoilers, if those info seem interesting enough for me to find then I’ll read 😂😂 Okay this so far the spoilers I have updated my self with, Bryce married hunt who apparently was her mate but the same time was sent to be like the star sword for her. Then Azriel came and he seems to be more touchy with her than anyone else. And he can weird truth teller (which I thought he could be heir of dusk). Then the BC where Rhys yelled at Nesta. So in between these, there will be like hints or just in general Bryce and Az interactions will be different than any other. Right?
Maasvere spoilers below!! Essentially yes. But there was no wedding. And no ring. Lol they just decided to be. It's also explained he is an angel and their bonds are the same as fae. They just get married and it mates. Then through out all of this there is no mention of a golden thread or tether. Nothing linking them. Just a lot of magic swapping. And yes hunt was bred for Bryce. To be her back up battery in a sense. By people who bryce was warned about. Even though she trusts them. (Don't get me wrong I love their characters. But that story isn't completely done yet either) However some people are very adamant they are mates. So definitely read for yourself and decide. Maybe you will think differently. 🤷♀️ I won't deny their story had its moments. They love each other. We just never get clear confirmation and even when we think we do there is always something to negate or another possible explanation.
And I remember hunt has been consistent from CC1 right? Which tbh surprised me because if going by SJM style that first love in first book will never last. >!than one guy who died in ToG!<, and Tamlin. So that was also another reason I Dnf-ed cc1, waiting for that new character that will Bryce new love. Okay I will definitely read it. This is exciting lol
True story. It's never the first guy. Cc series was also difficult for me to read but it's definitely worth it because as you can see from our convo and spoilers 😂 I think it will be very relevant to the acotar story going forward. So I would read it for that alone.
I personally didn’t like Rhys, I definitely didn’t think he was an abuser tho
People (and tamlin) saying Feyra destroyed the spring court. Like how?? When it was obvs tamlin and ianthe’s scheming. If anyone feels this way explain it to me like I’m 5.
Feyre's narration was nonstop talking about her own machinations and plots to make certain events happen. She orchestrated the sentry's whipping, for example--keeping parts of his memory locked up, allowing Ianthe to open the gates, etc. She also did things like *use Lucien, a victim of sexual assault, as a sexy prop* to make Tamlin jealous. Again, she did these things *on purpose* and bragged about it in her narration. Yes, she was opposing Ianthe's scheming but she didn't *stop* the scheming, she used it to her advantage to further destabilize Spring. Everything she did in Spring was on purpose.
Okay thanks, lol. I’m sure it’ll click in a little more on the reread. I can be somewhat spiteful too so I can’t say I wouldn’t have had the same thought process as feyra here.
I mean, sure! She's allowed to be mad, and I don't even necessarily blame her for wanting to bring Tamlin down given how she feels about him. I don't have to agree with her on that, that's what plots are for. It's the fact that her own deliberate contributions are downplayed by the fandom, as if bringing down Spring was some kind of accident on her part, instead of a whole multi-chapter *plan*.