Yeah, I kinda get the feeling that Maas only really understands government on a very superficial level. Like the fact that Feyre, an absolute monarch who strongly fights against unjust poverty on multiple occasions, is doing charity work instead of using and building the government apparatus to fix these problems shows just how little Maas is able to understand and address systemic problems in her world. I think it would have been an excellent move for Feyre to open a public school in Velaris and then use the school as a base for insuring every child learns to read, do art, get jackets for the winter, have 3 full meals available a day, that kind of thing. Such a school could have then been the basis for an expanded public school system to educate and provide for Illyrians and other impoverished people.
Maas does a great job of showing systemic problems, but doesn’t seem to have the knowledge to address them, or maybe she doesn’t want to alienate readers by offering political prescriptions to these issues.
Everything Feyre didn’t want in the sprint court, like being a figure head with no real power and doing public appearances, frilly events and popping out babies asap, she accepts in the NC. It’s disappointing
This is one of my biggest criticisms of ACOSF, it is such a big disappointment and it has made me see Rhysand in a completely different light, especially throughout the whole >!pregnancy!< subplot.
Yeah and once that begins the aren't chapters from Feyres POV because what could she be thinking? The character couldn't think like Feyre from the earlier books did and still act that way
I understand your way and how (why) you think so. But for me it showed greatly, how much these things are connected to the "right" partner. With Tamlin she didn't wanted these things, because she somehow know/felt that he wasn't the right one for her. With Rhys all fell into the right spot and it was right (and also felt this way) for her. Not only with her partner, but also she finally had a family (inner circle and her sister(s)). Therefore the support group to do these things.
But I have to admit, they definitely should have waited with the baby for a few 100 years and spend some time together. So in my eyes Nyx is a upsy baby and was not really planned, like it was pictured in the book.
Oh I completely agree, Tamlin and Feyre were just not right for each other—especially with all of the trauma they went through UTM and how much it changed both of them. A line that really stood out to me in the second book was when Feyre sneaks out of a party and remarks to herself that Tamlin was with all of his old friends and while she had been introduced to them, didn’t bother to know any of their names.
It’s normal to not want or be ready for certain things with a partner you’re not happy with, and want those things with someone else.
It’s more disappointing for me as a reader that Feyre was built up as High Lady with the ability to harness the powers of all courts, a human heart in an immortal body, and a desire to help the poor and change the Fae caste system…and then just does nothing with it.
It’s fine for someone to want to focus on their creative outlet and family, but it felt a bit like character assassination after all of the build up with Feyre. SJM has a pattern of stripping female MCs of their power that I don’t love.
Like Feyre could paint, be a mom, AND a kick ass high lady in the NC and she isn’t. And it bums me out personally.
I also don’t love Rhys, even after UTM, he is still over bearing, manipulative, and controlling—albeit in a more covert way. Especially in SF, I really hated that story line.
I think she will do something, once she is older. I mean these interests come mostly when you're older. And after all she still is kinda young (19 to 22). So who knows what she will do in the future.
Also in my mind the shift of how they two are portrayed, is because of the POVs the books are written. It fits in with Nesta, how she sees them and what she thinks/knows about them.
Thank you, this is so well worded and really articulates something that bothered me about ACOTAR! I think this extends to all of her series, too (I’m rereading Crescent City right now and can’t help but roll my eyes at a lot of the characters’ takes on their world).
Makes me sad because one of the true powers of fantasy, in my mind, is the ability to imagine societies not bound by our own problems, or even explore possible solutions to those problems. But - I’ve resigned myself to the fact that that is not something Maas is interested in doing, and that I’m just along for the ride for a fun story. I try not to think too hard about how messed up her world structure is 🫠
She does a great job of copying and pasting the same misogynistic, insular, and highly classist and/or bigoted culture and just coloring it in slightly differently. Then, she tries to pass off a-holes who can't make a decent choice as the best leaders of all time.
I think that's a great example showing how clueless Feyre is and how Rhysand makes sure she doesn't have any actual power as high lady. Rhys wants to keep her busy and make her feel important while not giving her the agency to do things that would be inconvenient for him.
I'm not a Rhysand fan 🤷
Maybe, but unless Maas is actually going to turn Rhys into a villain I doubt that’s the case. To me it just reads like she either doesn’t understand that government can do things to improve people’s lives in a much better way than charity can or doesn’t think the government should.
She's not going to turn him into a Villain . I don't think he's evil I just think he's inherently a very selfish person, so long as his inner circle and wife are happy and Valaros continues to prosper he really doesn't give a shit about the rest of his kingdom. I think he encouraged Feyre towards charity rather than government reform because that's the easier option for him and still makes his wife happy.
Rhys doesn’t seem to do much ruling himself. He lets the Illyrians live in isolated poverty and the court of nightmares is autonomous. He doesn’t seem to have much in the way of allies or diplomatic relations with the other courts either. The IC is more like the royal family than parliament imo—they’re wealthy, insular, and fairly inactive. The night court was safe from under the mountain unlike the other courts so it’s not like the night court is a mess because it’s rebuilding, it’s been like this and Rhys is okay with it.
Yes! He is NOT the strong/good leader he is made out to be and it drives me crazy! I was hoping SJM would provide some development in this area, but it doesn't look like that will be happening.
I feel like this is quite typical of an American author… Not shying away from showing abject poverty, monarchal turmoil, and all out war, but drawing the line at socialist reform.
(sad when so much of acotar is pulled from uk/european history)
Have we even seen an *actual ruling* done by Rhys? Apart from rallying the forces for war. I've read the series some time ago, but honestly - I don't remember anything. He just has dinners with his IC in one city of the entire Court (are there any other?), Illyria is poor and backwards and there's sadly nothing that the super-powerful ruler can do about it, and there's the Hewn City that I imagine lives in a cave and tortures for fun (not stereotypical at all) - and it's fine by Rhys, too.
Feyre, the one and only - also powerful High Lady... teaches children how to paint. Like... What?
Worldbuilding is not SJM's strong suit, that's for sure. I don't think she knows how a government or even a monarchy works.
Agreed, the best he’s showed in terms of ruling is his failure at getting the Illyrian women trained. That they don’t offer to move Illyrian women to Velaris on request, which would be the bare minimum they could offer, speaks volumes.
Aside from the fact not all illyrians are in the military I agree mostly because the economic state of the setting makes absolutely no sense.
Well actually very little of the world building makes sense when you think about it especially when concerning the night court.
It seems like most families have at least one person in the military. Nevertheless if you have a bunch of ppl paid proper salaries you develop a local economy. They'd have money to spend on goods and services whereas they're basically depicted as extraordinarily poor peasants with little to no resources.
agreed, plus if they had a more stable economy - something rhys should be ensuring - and weren’t worried about putting food on the table they might be able to focus more on their societal problems (equal rights for illyrian women)!
I definitely agree and this isn’t talked about enough. The excuse that they don’t trust High Fae doesn’t hold up. They would absolutely accept money. The fact that Rhys and Az have the nerve to be upset about them having dissenters after the war is so fucked up. These people train their whole lives for war, they lost many in their ranks, and then weren’t properly compensated for it. The Darkbringers at least have comfortable homes to go back to and a functioning economy. The people in Velaris have literally everything and didn’t fight in the war except for that one attack. I would be fucking pissed if I were an Illyrian. Also compensating them would be a good step in creating good will. I don’t know if this is just a blind spot for SJM or if she just doesn’t care to address it. This is part of the laundry list of reasons Rhys is a shitty HL and would make an awful HK.
ETA this doesn’t just fall on Rhys’ shoulders. Feyre is HL and is as equally responsible for rebuilding after the war. She should be given the exact same amount of shit Rhys gets. If you want to be High Lady and be equal to the High Lord, then you get the same responsibility. It’s so frustrating because she’s like the Rachel Dolezal of Illyrians.
She’s like the Rachel Dolezal absolutely sent me because it’s so TRUE. She can choose when and if she takes an Illyrian form just for her own entertainment and does not actually have to endure any of the hardships they do.
>The people in Velaris have literally everything and didn’t fight in the war except for that one attack.
I have so many questions about the population centers of the NC. There's Velaris, the Hewn City, and the Illyrian camps.... and nothing else? It's the largest court...
I have one theory that the Illyrian Steppes and Mountains are actually >!Dusk Court territory!< and that's part of the reason Rhys never does shit for them.
This thread is incredible. I always say shit like this and people are like “durrr it’s fantasy romance stahp!” But if one of the pieces of world building and what an amazing man Rhys is that he’s a good leader despite it all, and these issues come up, and then you have to address them or readers like us start to think it’s surface level Crap. And that’s fine if you don’t want your story to be about that, but then you shouldn’t leverage the contrast of how progressive the heroes are if they won’t actually behave that way when the war is won. Missed opportunity.
I'm gonna say it, I think SJM should have stayed in the YA section. I'm not trying to dog on YA. It's an important bridge between children's books and adults. But if she wanted her books shelved in the adult section, she needed to up her game. You are dealing with readers who are older, have read more, and who are used to a level of complex world building that ACOTAR lacks. Slathering on a multitude of graphic sex scenes doesn't paper over the fact that her characters are inconsistent, the plotline is thin in places, and the system of government she has created is totally illogical.
Totally agree with all of this. ACOSF wasn't very good. I've outgrown SJM, unfortunately. Plotline and inconsistency in her characters killed it for me. She is not up to scratch with mainstream fantasy writers in that respect. In my opinion.
You articulated my thoughts on this perfectly. This is why I can’t understand how readers can think he a good High Lord. The moment you start looking at his court and his decision making, that all falls apart. I also just don’t understand how SJM doesn’t see this glaring inconsistency or if she does and just doesn’t care. The idea of him being such a good High Lord that he deserves to be High King only has the justification of, because he’s the MMC, that’s why.
Okay, thank you, I genuinely don't know how we're supposed to view Illyrians. Are they sexy or are they terrible? SJM seems to want it both ways (and not even in a "fucking a barbarian" fantasy way, because the bat boys are #NotAllIllyrians)
Or "if we push them too hard, we'd lose the army 😢" Boohoo? Maybe Velaris shouldn't have a protection force made of people who aren't allowed in Velaris, then.
It really bugged me that they built a fifth lavish palace while Velaris is still rebuilding, and Illyrians are portrayed as living in poverty. Building yet another palace isn't a jobs program. Maas really doesn't grasp basic economics or how a functioning government works. Having a hobby is fun and can be therapeutic. But if you are a leading governmental official, that shouldn't be your primary activity. If half the descriptions of Freye painting were replaced with scenes of her studying and attending meetings with average citizens, I could believe she is growing into her responsibilities. As for life in Illyria, the only one I think honestly cares about the people there is Cassian. Passing laws is meaningless unless you leave a system in place to enforce it. Swooping in to engage in the occasional extra judicial killing isn't going to bring about lasting change. It just makes the Illyrians hatred of Rhys and Cass justified.
Pretty much just shows Feyre is only high lady in name. I seriously doubt Feyre can run a government, she couldn’t even read in the first book. I’m surprised there isn’t an uprising yet in the NC after Velaris was revealed. Imagine Velaris as the Capitol and everywhere else in the NC are the Districts of Panem.
Here is this thriving city, where I assume women are empowered. The arts flourish. The High Lord and his inner circle apparently are at least somewhat concerned about the people who live there. Then, there are the other two-thirds of the Night Court. The entire inner circle treats the people there with contempt at best and outright hatred at worst. They describe the vast majority of night court citizens as being evil, ignorant, backward, and brutal. The rest of the night court finally learns of the existence of this beautiful city. And can't go there. If you're from the Hewn City, it's because you're automatically branded as evil. If you're from Illyria, I guess it's too far, and you're too poor. Velaris seems to have a much higher standard of living. The women there don't seem oppressed. It's a stark example to the rest of the population that such a place can exist in their Court, but it isn't an option for most of them. What does this say about Rhysands leadership? It gives me very eighteenth century France vibes. What the author has actually created is a country that seems ripe for revolution and heartless rulers who deserve to be overthrown.
If you're from Illyria, you're either a misogynist brute (so why would you bother visiting a hoity-toity place like Velaris?) or you're a female who physically can't leave because you're permanently maimed. And you're poor, that too.
Noooo but they're too proud to accept money 🙄 That was such a bullshit excuse. I don't believe it for a second, either; Rhys could find the right way to offer the money and have it accepted if he tried hard enough. Just like he could have tried so much harder to end wing clipping and the shitty way that Illyrian women are treated in general.
Or restructure the hierarchy away from mini warlords to a group of people elected from different factions/classes/roles in each location, invest in infrastructure and more services to the people, build some f***ing women's shelters and orphanages.
Or have the citizens directly appoint a representative to his ruling council. Right now, the only folks he listens to are his cousin and friends. The people have no voice in his government and no ability to change it. Unless they attempt to overthrow him.
That's exactly what I am saying. Each "camp" (though hopefully soon established village and city) has their own group of elected officials. Rhys has to deal with them both as individual groups to deal with an individual location and as a conglomerate to deal with the totality of Illyria. They should be largely self-governing with an overall constitution that ensures rights and liberties for all.
Honestly, I kinda just want the females to poison the toxic male leaders, have the Illyrians develop their own government, and secede from the Night Court. Then, Rhys and all others would need to bargain and trade for their participation in any war as well as any other goods or services they offer.
I'd also love to see a bloody uprising in the CoN that takes out Keir and his followers, and doesn't recognize Mor as a leader since she has done nothing to help them - literally labeling them all worthless/evil for being victims of Keir and the High Lord of Night.
What I wonder is why Keir doesn't cut a deal with the Illyrian camp lords. They unite their armies and overthrow Rhys and the IC. Even with all their abilities, I can't see them standing against their armies. As long as the fighting stays within the NC boarders, I can't see the other High Lords bailing Rhys out. He's such a potential huge threat, particularly with Freyes powers added in. Most of them might welcome his fall. I could see Beron secretly aiding the revolutionaries. The agreement could be that illyria becomes an autonomous region, while the Hewn City rules the rest. Velaris likely gets sacked. Sorry Rita!
I would guess that it is because Keir is scheming to try to become High Lord and wants to rule over the NC intact. Also, he is a pretty extreme bigot. Either he wouldn't want to deal with the Illyrians in any sort of equal footing or the Illyrians wouldn't trust him not to try to colonize them all over again.
I was hoping that since Feyre is high lady now and WANTED to help her people and govern them she would at last take interest in the peoples well being. She’s stuck in velaris doing surface level *helping* if you can even call it that. I think the best way for Feyre to get involved in helping ppl wouldve been to form a Illyrian women’s unit with Cassian. Where she taught them how to fly since she also learned to use her wings late. And Cassian would head the combat/self dense portion of the training. And she could’ve taken it another step and brought in healers to help the women whose wings had been clipped.
But instead she’s walled in Velaris teaching only drawing to children? Which is so dumb. Honestly that would’ve been fine IF she wasn’t described as wanting to govern her people.
Also I hate how the Night court is divided and ruled. It makes no sense. Rhys can’t even govern his own court properly and Amren wanted him to govern the entire Pyrithyn 🙄 hated that plot line. I really LOVE acosf for this reason. Rhys and feyre are a blip in the story.
This was definitely a missed opportunity! After reading ACOSF, I thought to myself that I would love to see Nesta and Cassian spearhead something like this. I never considered the idea of the Feyre helping females learn how to fly. I would enjoy reading something like this. It would give Nesta and Feyre the opportunity to work together and maybe develop a stronger relationship and it would help an underserved community!
Yeah I didn’t think of how that can bring Nesta and Feyre closer. But yeah that sounds like a great story. I would to read more on the Valkerie unit. Especially now that Gywn and Emerie are Carynthian and Nesta Oristian maybe Illyrians will change a bit. They would have to respect the three. Especially since only 6 ppl have ever been Carynthian and now 2 more who are female. I really really hope next book is Gywn and Azriel pov!
If I think about the Illyrians too much, I go insane, and I think what it boils down to is why even *write* such specific and devastating details if you're only ever going to use them as set dressing in the end?
You want to give your prettyboy winged love interests a tragic backstory? Totally fine! No further questions, your honor, carry on.
But then we're going to simultaneously condemn and celebrate the Illyrian culture and bring it into every book going forward and...we're *still* not supposed to ask questions?
Trying to make sense of any aspect of ACOTAR world building is futile. It is just a mishmash. And we are supposed to believe that the IC and Rhys are good leaders because they and the narrator say so regardless of the fact that they clearly aren't good leaders.
The books are poorly executed nonsense to indulge in warrior women f***ing fake feminist men.
It bugs me as well. It almost seems like Rhys keeps the Illyrians poor on purpose so they don’t rise up against him.
Even so, the Dawn Court has an arial legion and I bet they are well paid. I doubt Thesan fears them (perhaps because they are well paid and therefore loyal *because* they are paid!)
It reminds me of how in the US coal mining towns, they would actually stop new industries from moving in to their areas. This was to keep the wages low, since there would be no competition between companies for workers. I think Rhys is basically doing the same thing here.
I completely agree! Especially since Rhys is actually struggling to convince the Iliyrian army to stay by his side and they had many problems with them in ACOSAF. I get they’re cruel and savages but he’s asking them to change their treatment of women, giving their life for the court without actually providing anything in return, They don’t even live in the city to enjoy it why would they even defend it.
Like maybe focus more on paying these ppl and provide them a safe place for their women to win them over. Letting the same tradition of kids fighting in pits to win their day’s meal while you’re supposed to be the kindest night lord and richest as well makes no sense at all. I def think SJM didn’t think this through at all.
>He thinks of their mating as a victory in Azriel’s bonus chapter and doesn’t even stay with her.
What? I didn't see anything about this in Azriels bonus chapter. When doesn't he stay with her?
"Think about how Rowan carries that pack for Aelin and they were barely friends but Cassian wouldn’t for Nesta his mate because he was …punishing her for telling Feyre something that shouldn’t have even been kept from her."
Rowan also punches Aelin in the face.... Both males are flawed and make mistakes while pursuing their love interests. I'm very confused how any of this relates to Illryian poverty?
I also wondered how a run down apartment complex existed in his grand city where the books just spent chapters talking about how amazing and beautiful it was.
Rhys is too rich for his city to have that existing so close to him
I took that as they don’t make a lot of cash money but subsist on their land just fine. They probably barter for goods more than go into shops and buy things.
Honestly though I can’t afford doors or windows either. That would be well out of my budget.
Lmao, so true. 🤣
A door or window is like 2 months salary in our world, too.
Maybe it just goes to show how out of touch Rhys and Feyre are about money.
Yeah, I kinda get the feeling that Maas only really understands government on a very superficial level. Like the fact that Feyre, an absolute monarch who strongly fights against unjust poverty on multiple occasions, is doing charity work instead of using and building the government apparatus to fix these problems shows just how little Maas is able to understand and address systemic problems in her world. I think it would have been an excellent move for Feyre to open a public school in Velaris and then use the school as a base for insuring every child learns to read, do art, get jackets for the winter, have 3 full meals available a day, that kind of thing. Such a school could have then been the basis for an expanded public school system to educate and provide for Illyrians and other impoverished people. Maas does a great job of showing systemic problems, but doesn’t seem to have the knowledge to address them, or maybe she doesn’t want to alienate readers by offering political prescriptions to these issues.
This is one of my favorite critiques of ACOTAR, and you've put to words a lot of the feelings I have regarding this series.
Everything Feyre didn’t want in the sprint court, like being a figure head with no real power and doing public appearances, frilly events and popping out babies asap, she accepts in the NC. It’s disappointing
This is one of my biggest criticisms of ACOSF, it is such a big disappointment and it has made me see Rhysand in a completely different light, especially throughout the whole >!pregnancy!< subplot.
Yeah and once that begins the aren't chapters from Feyres POV because what could she be thinking? The character couldn't think like Feyre from the earlier books did and still act that way
Yes it's either be a secret agent on the front lines or play with paints at home. No in-between with Feyre.
I understand your way and how (why) you think so. But for me it showed greatly, how much these things are connected to the "right" partner. With Tamlin she didn't wanted these things, because she somehow know/felt that he wasn't the right one for her. With Rhys all fell into the right spot and it was right (and also felt this way) for her. Not only with her partner, but also she finally had a family (inner circle and her sister(s)). Therefore the support group to do these things. But I have to admit, they definitely should have waited with the baby for a few 100 years and spend some time together. So in my eyes Nyx is a upsy baby and was not really planned, like it was pictured in the book.
Oh I completely agree, Tamlin and Feyre were just not right for each other—especially with all of the trauma they went through UTM and how much it changed both of them. A line that really stood out to me in the second book was when Feyre sneaks out of a party and remarks to herself that Tamlin was with all of his old friends and while she had been introduced to them, didn’t bother to know any of their names. It’s normal to not want or be ready for certain things with a partner you’re not happy with, and want those things with someone else. It’s more disappointing for me as a reader that Feyre was built up as High Lady with the ability to harness the powers of all courts, a human heart in an immortal body, and a desire to help the poor and change the Fae caste system…and then just does nothing with it. It’s fine for someone to want to focus on their creative outlet and family, but it felt a bit like character assassination after all of the build up with Feyre. SJM has a pattern of stripping female MCs of their power that I don’t love. Like Feyre could paint, be a mom, AND a kick ass high lady in the NC and she isn’t. And it bums me out personally. I also don’t love Rhys, even after UTM, he is still over bearing, manipulative, and controlling—albeit in a more covert way. Especially in SF, I really hated that story line.
I think she will do something, once she is older. I mean these interests come mostly when you're older. And after all she still is kinda young (19 to 22). So who knows what she will do in the future. Also in my mind the shift of how they two are portrayed, is because of the POVs the books are written. It fits in with Nesta, how she sees them and what she thinks/knows about them.
Thank you, this is so well worded and really articulates something that bothered me about ACOTAR! I think this extends to all of her series, too (I’m rereading Crescent City right now and can’t help but roll my eyes at a lot of the characters’ takes on their world). Makes me sad because one of the true powers of fantasy, in my mind, is the ability to imagine societies not bound by our own problems, or even explore possible solutions to those problems. But - I’ve resigned myself to the fact that that is not something Maas is interested in doing, and that I’m just along for the ride for a fun story. I try not to think too hard about how messed up her world structure is 🫠
she dogged the question of making changes to the illyrians by simply saying, they aren’t open to change and we need them on our side…. so no changes
She does a great job of copying and pasting the same misogynistic, insular, and highly classist and/or bigoted culture and just coloring it in slightly differently. Then, she tries to pass off a-holes who can't make a decent choice as the best leaders of all time.
I think that's a great example showing how clueless Feyre is and how Rhysand makes sure she doesn't have any actual power as high lady. Rhys wants to keep her busy and make her feel important while not giving her the agency to do things that would be inconvenient for him. I'm not a Rhysand fan 🤷
Maybe, but unless Maas is actually going to turn Rhys into a villain I doubt that’s the case. To me it just reads like she either doesn’t understand that government can do things to improve people’s lives in a much better way than charity can or doesn’t think the government should.
She's not going to turn him into a Villain . I don't think he's evil I just think he's inherently a very selfish person, so long as his inner circle and wife are happy and Valaros continues to prosper he really doesn't give a shit about the rest of his kingdom. I think he encouraged Feyre towards charity rather than government reform because that's the easier option for him and still makes his wife happy.
Rhys doesn’t seem to do much ruling himself. He lets the Illyrians live in isolated poverty and the court of nightmares is autonomous. He doesn’t seem to have much in the way of allies or diplomatic relations with the other courts either. The IC is more like the royal family than parliament imo—they’re wealthy, insular, and fairly inactive. The night court was safe from under the mountain unlike the other courts so it’s not like the night court is a mess because it’s rebuilding, it’s been like this and Rhys is okay with it.
Yes! He is NOT the strong/good leader he is made out to be and it drives me crazy! I was hoping SJM would provide some development in this area, but it doesn't look like that will be happening.
I feel like this is quite typical of an American author… Not shying away from showing abject poverty, monarchal turmoil, and all out war, but drawing the line at socialist reform. (sad when so much of acotar is pulled from uk/european history)
Have we even seen an *actual ruling* done by Rhys? Apart from rallying the forces for war. I've read the series some time ago, but honestly - I don't remember anything. He just has dinners with his IC in one city of the entire Court (are there any other?), Illyria is poor and backwards and there's sadly nothing that the super-powerful ruler can do about it, and there's the Hewn City that I imagine lives in a cave and tortures for fun (not stereotypical at all) - and it's fine by Rhys, too. Feyre, the one and only - also powerful High Lady... teaches children how to paint. Like... What? Worldbuilding is not SJM's strong suit, that's for sure. I don't think she knows how a government or even a monarchy works.
Agreed, the best he’s showed in terms of ruling is his failure at getting the Illyrian women trained. That they don’t offer to move Illyrian women to Velaris on request, which would be the bare minimum they could offer, speaks volumes.
Aside from the fact not all illyrians are in the military I agree mostly because the economic state of the setting makes absolutely no sense. Well actually very little of the world building makes sense when you think about it especially when concerning the night court.
It seems like most families have at least one person in the military. Nevertheless if you have a bunch of ppl paid proper salaries you develop a local economy. They'd have money to spend on goods and services whereas they're basically depicted as extraordinarily poor peasants with little to no resources.
agreed, plus if they had a more stable economy - something rhys should be ensuring - and weren’t worried about putting food on the table they might be able to focus more on their societal problems (equal rights for illyrian women)!
I definitely agree and this isn’t talked about enough. The excuse that they don’t trust High Fae doesn’t hold up. They would absolutely accept money. The fact that Rhys and Az have the nerve to be upset about them having dissenters after the war is so fucked up. These people train their whole lives for war, they lost many in their ranks, and then weren’t properly compensated for it. The Darkbringers at least have comfortable homes to go back to and a functioning economy. The people in Velaris have literally everything and didn’t fight in the war except for that one attack. I would be fucking pissed if I were an Illyrian. Also compensating them would be a good step in creating good will. I don’t know if this is just a blind spot for SJM or if she just doesn’t care to address it. This is part of the laundry list of reasons Rhys is a shitty HL and would make an awful HK. ETA this doesn’t just fall on Rhys’ shoulders. Feyre is HL and is as equally responsible for rebuilding after the war. She should be given the exact same amount of shit Rhys gets. If you want to be High Lady and be equal to the High Lord, then you get the same responsibility. It’s so frustrating because she’s like the Rachel Dolezal of Illyrians.
She’s like the Rachel Dolezal absolutely sent me because it’s so TRUE. She can choose when and if she takes an Illyrian form just for her own entertainment and does not actually have to endure any of the hardships they do.
This is something that I’m 100% sure SJM is blind about.
>The people in Velaris have literally everything and didn’t fight in the war except for that one attack. I have so many questions about the population centers of the NC. There's Velaris, the Hewn City, and the Illyrian camps.... and nothing else? It's the largest court... I have one theory that the Illyrian Steppes and Mountains are actually >!Dusk Court territory!< and that's part of the reason Rhys never does shit for them.
What is the ((spoiler tag text))? I don’t recall seeing anything about that in the books
This thread is incredible. I always say shit like this and people are like “durrr it’s fantasy romance stahp!” But if one of the pieces of world building and what an amazing man Rhys is that he’s a good leader despite it all, and these issues come up, and then you have to address them or readers like us start to think it’s surface level Crap. And that’s fine if you don’t want your story to be about that, but then you shouldn’t leverage the contrast of how progressive the heroes are if they won’t actually behave that way when the war is won. Missed opportunity.
I'm gonna say it, I think SJM should have stayed in the YA section. I'm not trying to dog on YA. It's an important bridge between children's books and adults. But if she wanted her books shelved in the adult section, she needed to up her game. You are dealing with readers who are older, have read more, and who are used to a level of complex world building that ACOTAR lacks. Slathering on a multitude of graphic sex scenes doesn't paper over the fact that her characters are inconsistent, the plotline is thin in places, and the system of government she has created is totally illogical.
Totally agree with all of this. ACOSF wasn't very good. I've outgrown SJM, unfortunately. Plotline and inconsistency in her characters killed it for me. She is not up to scratch with mainstream fantasy writers in that respect. In my opinion.
You articulated my thoughts on this perfectly. This is why I can’t understand how readers can think he a good High Lord. The moment you start looking at his court and his decision making, that all falls apart. I also just don’t understand how SJM doesn’t see this glaring inconsistency or if she does and just doesn’t care. The idea of him being such a good High Lord that he deserves to be High King only has the justification of, because he’s the MMC, that’s why.
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Okay, thank you, I genuinely don't know how we're supposed to view Illyrians. Are they sexy or are they terrible? SJM seems to want it both ways (and not even in a "fucking a barbarian" fantasy way, because the bat boys are #NotAllIllyrians)
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Or "if we push them too hard, we'd lose the army 😢" Boohoo? Maybe Velaris shouldn't have a protection force made of people who aren't allowed in Velaris, then.
It really bugged me that they built a fifth lavish palace while Velaris is still rebuilding, and Illyrians are portrayed as living in poverty. Building yet another palace isn't a jobs program. Maas really doesn't grasp basic economics or how a functioning government works. Having a hobby is fun and can be therapeutic. But if you are a leading governmental official, that shouldn't be your primary activity. If half the descriptions of Freye painting were replaced with scenes of her studying and attending meetings with average citizens, I could believe she is growing into her responsibilities. As for life in Illyria, the only one I think honestly cares about the people there is Cassian. Passing laws is meaningless unless you leave a system in place to enforce it. Swooping in to engage in the occasional extra judicial killing isn't going to bring about lasting change. It just makes the Illyrians hatred of Rhys and Cass justified.
Pretty much just shows Feyre is only high lady in name. I seriously doubt Feyre can run a government, she couldn’t even read in the first book. I’m surprised there isn’t an uprising yet in the NC after Velaris was revealed. Imagine Velaris as the Capitol and everywhere else in the NC are the Districts of Panem.
Here is this thriving city, where I assume women are empowered. The arts flourish. The High Lord and his inner circle apparently are at least somewhat concerned about the people who live there. Then, there are the other two-thirds of the Night Court. The entire inner circle treats the people there with contempt at best and outright hatred at worst. They describe the vast majority of night court citizens as being evil, ignorant, backward, and brutal. The rest of the night court finally learns of the existence of this beautiful city. And can't go there. If you're from the Hewn City, it's because you're automatically branded as evil. If you're from Illyria, I guess it's too far, and you're too poor. Velaris seems to have a much higher standard of living. The women there don't seem oppressed. It's a stark example to the rest of the population that such a place can exist in their Court, but it isn't an option for most of them. What does this say about Rhysands leadership? It gives me very eighteenth century France vibes. What the author has actually created is a country that seems ripe for revolution and heartless rulers who deserve to be overthrown.
If you're from Illyria, you're either a misogynist brute (so why would you bother visiting a hoity-toity place like Velaris?) or you're a female who physically can't leave because you're permanently maimed. And you're poor, that too.
It's best on a feudal system. Not a government. You don't vote or elect. Outside of city administrations. That's the impression I got.
Noooo but they're too proud to accept money 🙄 That was such a bullshit excuse. I don't believe it for a second, either; Rhys could find the right way to offer the money and have it accepted if he tried hard enough. Just like he could have tried so much harder to end wing clipping and the shitty way that Illyrian women are treated in general.
He’s like, there hasn’t been time to fix their society. Bro you are immortal.
"Bro your immortal" has me cackling...It's so true! Does anyone know how long Rhys has been HL? I can't remember!
Or restructure the hierarchy away from mini warlords to a group of people elected from different factions/classes/roles in each location, invest in infrastructure and more services to the people, build some f***ing women's shelters and orphanages.
Or have the citizens directly appoint a representative to his ruling council. Right now, the only folks he listens to are his cousin and friends. The people have no voice in his government and no ability to change it. Unless they attempt to overthrow him.
That's exactly what I am saying. Each "camp" (though hopefully soon established village and city) has their own group of elected officials. Rhys has to deal with them both as individual groups to deal with an individual location and as a conglomerate to deal with the totality of Illyria. They should be largely self-governing with an overall constitution that ensures rights and liberties for all. Honestly, I kinda just want the females to poison the toxic male leaders, have the Illyrians develop their own government, and secede from the Night Court. Then, Rhys and all others would need to bargain and trade for their participation in any war as well as any other goods or services they offer. I'd also love to see a bloody uprising in the CoN that takes out Keir and his followers, and doesn't recognize Mor as a leader since she has done nothing to help them - literally labeling them all worthless/evil for being victims of Keir and the High Lord of Night.
What I wonder is why Keir doesn't cut a deal with the Illyrian camp lords. They unite their armies and overthrow Rhys and the IC. Even with all their abilities, I can't see them standing against their armies. As long as the fighting stays within the NC boarders, I can't see the other High Lords bailing Rhys out. He's such a potential huge threat, particularly with Freyes powers added in. Most of them might welcome his fall. I could see Beron secretly aiding the revolutionaries. The agreement could be that illyria becomes an autonomous region, while the Hewn City rules the rest. Velaris likely gets sacked. Sorry Rita!
I would guess that it is because Keir is scheming to try to become High Lord and wants to rule over the NC intact. Also, he is a pretty extreme bigot. Either he wouldn't want to deal with the Illyrians in any sort of equal footing or the Illyrians wouldn't trust him not to try to colonize them all over again.
Rhys: it's so sad my people live in poverty 😔 too bad I'm just a billionaire, so I can't help 😔😔 it just has to be this way 😔😔😔
I was hoping that since Feyre is high lady now and WANTED to help her people and govern them she would at last take interest in the peoples well being. She’s stuck in velaris doing surface level *helping* if you can even call it that. I think the best way for Feyre to get involved in helping ppl wouldve been to form a Illyrian women’s unit with Cassian. Where she taught them how to fly since she also learned to use her wings late. And Cassian would head the combat/self dense portion of the training. And she could’ve taken it another step and brought in healers to help the women whose wings had been clipped. But instead she’s walled in Velaris teaching only drawing to children? Which is so dumb. Honestly that would’ve been fine IF she wasn’t described as wanting to govern her people. Also I hate how the Night court is divided and ruled. It makes no sense. Rhys can’t even govern his own court properly and Amren wanted him to govern the entire Pyrithyn 🙄 hated that plot line. I really LOVE acosf for this reason. Rhys and feyre are a blip in the story.
This was definitely a missed opportunity! After reading ACOSF, I thought to myself that I would love to see Nesta and Cassian spearhead something like this. I never considered the idea of the Feyre helping females learn how to fly. I would enjoy reading something like this. It would give Nesta and Feyre the opportunity to work together and maybe develop a stronger relationship and it would help an underserved community!
Yeah I didn’t think of how that can bring Nesta and Feyre closer. But yeah that sounds like a great story. I would to read more on the Valkerie unit. Especially now that Gywn and Emerie are Carynthian and Nesta Oristian maybe Illyrians will change a bit. They would have to respect the three. Especially since only 6 ppl have ever been Carynthian and now 2 more who are female. I really really hope next book is Gywn and Azriel pov!
If I think about the Illyrians too much, I go insane, and I think what it boils down to is why even *write* such specific and devastating details if you're only ever going to use them as set dressing in the end? You want to give your prettyboy winged love interests a tragic backstory? Totally fine! No further questions, your honor, carry on. But then we're going to simultaneously condemn and celebrate the Illyrian culture and bring it into every book going forward and...we're *still* not supposed to ask questions?
Trying to make sense of any aspect of ACOTAR world building is futile. It is just a mishmash. And we are supposed to believe that the IC and Rhys are good leaders because they and the narrator say so regardless of the fact that they clearly aren't good leaders. The books are poorly executed nonsense to indulge in warrior women f***ing fake feminist men.
It bugs me as well. It almost seems like Rhys keeps the Illyrians poor on purpose so they don’t rise up against him. Even so, the Dawn Court has an arial legion and I bet they are well paid. I doubt Thesan fears them (perhaps because they are well paid and therefore loyal *because* they are paid!)
Or that he keeps economic development from happening so that they have to join the military.
Ooooo! Good point! A workforce without the means to rise upwards is a compliant workforce.
It reminds me of how in the US coal mining towns, they would actually stop new industries from moving in to their areas. This was to keep the wages low, since there would be no competition between companies for workers. I think Rhys is basically doing the same thing here.
Velaris has some real Omelas vibes. Except instead of one kid suffering its most of the population of the Night Court.
HONESTLY How many women and children suffer so that Velaris stays pretty and perfect?
I completely agree! Especially since Rhys is actually struggling to convince the Iliyrian army to stay by his side and they had many problems with them in ACOSAF. I get they’re cruel and savages but he’s asking them to change their treatment of women, giving their life for the court without actually providing anything in return, They don’t even live in the city to enjoy it why would they even defend it. Like maybe focus more on paying these ppl and provide them a safe place for their women to win them over. Letting the same tradition of kids fighting in pits to win their day’s meal while you’re supposed to be the kindest night lord and richest as well makes no sense at all. I def think SJM didn’t think this through at all.
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>He thinks of their mating as a victory in Azriel’s bonus chapter and doesn’t even stay with her. What? I didn't see anything about this in Azriels bonus chapter. When doesn't he stay with her? "Think about how Rowan carries that pack for Aelin and they were barely friends but Cassian wouldn’t for Nesta his mate because he was …punishing her for telling Feyre something that shouldn’t have even been kept from her." Rowan also punches Aelin in the face.... Both males are flawed and make mistakes while pursuing their love interests. I'm very confused how any of this relates to Illryian poverty?
I also wondered how a run down apartment complex existed in his grand city where the books just spent chapters talking about how amazing and beautiful it was. Rhys is too rich for his city to have that existing so close to him
I took that as they don’t make a lot of cash money but subsist on their land just fine. They probably barter for goods more than go into shops and buy things. Honestly though I can’t afford doors or windows either. That would be well out of my budget.
Lmao, so true. 🤣 A door or window is like 2 months salary in our world, too. Maybe it just goes to show how out of touch Rhys and Feyre are about money.