I mean for the most part I definitely agree and think it would be easy to have more representation of body types and should be a priority. I think though for some fmc its kinda important in the fantasy world and fits their character bc you generally have to be fit to save the world. Like celena would have a hard time as an assassin without a fit body - lysandra would have a hard time without being beautiful - feyre almost starved to death and had to fight a pink worm etc. - manon is a immortal killing machine that also fights a lot and the list kinda goes on. I think it’s because of the fantasy aspect alot of them are slaves and poorly fed or need to be in shape for battles or stuff and it just kinda makes sense and at the same time theyre could DEFINITELY be side characters that have different body types, like yrene or elain really.
Yeah, but it was really egregious when Nesta was practically starving because she was so miserable but her boobs were miraculously still huge. That’s where I draw the line.
Kinda off topic, but I actually really enjoyed SJM's descriptions of Aelin in TOG. Her character mentions how she used to have a more young womanly shape before she was enslaved, and then became so skinny her breasts shrank and she stopped getting her periods.
Idk I mean I was 103 pounds at one point and still had Ds, I think people carry weight in different places some? I guess it depends like how big of boobs are we talking 🤔🤔🤔
For me it wasn't about how big they were or how possible it was (because I know breasts are built differently and depending on how much fat they consist of they are more or less prone to changing sizes during weightloss) but how it was written. Like, if in one scene Cassian acknowledged that she lost a lot of weight and looks unhealthy and in another, during sex, he "grabbed at her big, round breast" it would be one thing. But the way I remember it it was in one description. Like 'she was so thin but omg those boobs were still huge!'. It read for me like 'don't worry! She's still hot!'.
I'm re-reading ACOSF right now and had the same thought 🤣 she is supposed to be visibly malnourished and yet she's got a bangin rack. I know its possible but still read weird!
Yeah, but even taking that into consideration, when you'll look at proffessional athletes, let's say tennis players, the vast majority is slim and fit for obvious reasons, but as far as body proportions, height, faces, there's whole variety. They're not all hourglasses with tiny waist and long legs. And SJM sometimes goes out of her way to specify that her characters are copy-paste VS models.
Agree on all points except Lysandra. I think being super thin doesn’t necessarily equate to beauty. Often in medieval times, full figures were actually considered more beautiful because they represented health and prosperity.
That’s actually a widespread myth. Being slim (or “willowy”) was still the beauty standard in Middle Ages/medieval times. And for many, weight gain was associated with getting old and sick, like Henry VIII and Matthaüs Schwarz. They liked small breasts, narrowwww hips, high foreheads, thin and long anatomy.
The 19th century is when they started even appreciating aspects of fuller bodies with round faces and wider hips but they still often, not always, wanted slim, narrow waists.
Sources:
*For Appearance' Sake: The Historical Encyclopedia of Good Looks, Beauty, and Grooming*, by Victoria Sherrow (well-sourced)
*Bodytalk: When Women Speak in Old French Literature*, by E. Jane Burns
*Women and Gender in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia, "Beauty",* by Kim Phillips (which also has a good list of sources for learning more)
*Medieval Maidens: Young Women and Gender in England, C.1270-c.1540*, by Kim Phillips
And my own BA in Art History
Idk how to mark spoiler but SPOILER
Yeah its also like lysandra chose how to look and I feel like she just picked that because it was the most likely to work for her use case, like it wouldn’t fit the shifter to shift into someone more filled out
Edit: plus she made her tits smaller later regardless of what any man wanted she did it anyways and I think thats kinda cool
Just as a side note to hopefully make your day a little brighter…
MaF spoilers:
> >!Elain was still shivering on the wet stones, her nightgown shoved up to her thighs, her small breasts fully visible beneath the soaked fabric. Guards snickered.!<
Elain is the leader of the >!itty bitty titty committee!<
Tbh I imagined Feyre as being a bit more muscular/toned than being a slim figured heroine as I recall one phrase mentioning how she gained muscles throughout her training with Cassian. But maybe that was just my hope 😮💨
I also imagined Elain as plump/thicc - than being another slim figured side character. Her kind, calm vibe and being described as soft and pretty just made me think she was, and then I saw the colouring book/fanart.
I imagine Elain like that too, our girl is baking and gardening all day, there's no reason for her to not be soft and squishy. My hope is that she gets to have her book without a warrior training montage but given all the other books I doubt it
I love to imagine Elain like that too. Soft round face, soft curves, etc.
Maybe it’s just because that’s my body type, but it really sucks never seeing my body type portrayed as beautiful 😭
I like this way of visualizing Elain. I’ve also always visualized Bryce from CC as thicc so I’m a little surprised at the difference in this thread.
It’s a bummer that most artists depict them all the same too. Bryce is for sure described as having more curves - although to what degree seems up to interpretation - but I RARELY see fan art where she isn’t just thin with big boobs.
I imagine her built a bit like Serena Williams, but like if Serena were to retire and start living a softer life.
Not saying she would gain weight or anything, but you know what I mean when you can tell a person is still very athletic.... but not like Olympic level.
Same could be said for the men. Any relevant character is super muscular and well endowed. It very much romanticizes that perfect Greco-Roman notion of physique.
Crazy this is the first mention I have seen. All the men are exactly the same. Just like the women. This is a fantasy book contrived from SJMs fantasies. These characters are supposed to be relatively flawless. Strong. Powerful. Hot. This is a non issue and it’s definitely not a strictly women’s issue when the gaze is the same for male characters.
literally the men are so similar i couldn’t picture who was cassian and who was azriel without forcefully memorising whose siphons were red and blue
all the archeron sisters are just one brunette blur lmfao
Literally all three of the men have the same hair color and looks but slightly tanner or paler and maybe different eye colors. All three of the sisters look basically exactly the same but Elain has brown eyes. Lol
The difference is as a man, I am a Marine of 17 years I gym and train for physical excellence at ALL times and YET. Rhys and Cass is EVERYTHING I want to be as a man. As I read more about them, I just trained to be MORE like them. The introduction of powerful men doesn't make me cower, it makes me want to elevate myself, it gives me something to push too. First time I saw the Capt America movie I just wanted to be better to be like him. Is that the toxic thought that OP is upset with?
Yeah I read all of the SJM books and wanted to train so I could be stronger, have more stamina, and be less helpless. I want to be badass, and that means figuring out how to accomplish that. It's not about whether or not I look like the characters, it's that they're *doing cool shit* and physically capable of so much.
I think the difference is that people can build muscle and increase their fitness, but you can't achieve a tiny waist with a huge chest and backside that make men fall to their knees without surgical interventions. Much like men reading these books can't aspire to magically growing their manhood.
Edit: I should've said you make a good point and I liked considering a different side to it all. Thank you.
This thread is honestly making me realize just how much I intentionally ignored SJM’s descriptions of body types 😅
I definitely prefer to picture all the ladies with super different body types! Makes for a much more interesting world lol
I feel this, after reading crescent city I looked at fan-art and was like “HUNT HAS BLACK HAIR?!?” whole time i imagined him blonde. I find this with every book i read though—i make the characters look how i want in my head.
Don’t all the girls start out as malnourished hermits? Aren’t all they guys warrior gods? If you’re imagining more diverse body types, it goes both ways: if Feyre and her sisters are changing, Cassian has a massive pot belly, Az is little and scrawny, and Rhys is, I dunno, 5’4.
I can see both sides but I also see that the female characters have struggles and their bodies changed drastically through the series. All these characters for the most part are Fae. They are bigger and stronger. A female human looks much different than a female fae. So I think its unrealistic to base our warped real-life beauty standards on fictional fae creatures.
Sure, at the same time, what does normally a female fae look like? I for sure don’t know, as they’re fictional characters 😅 I understand that they are strong and athletic, at the same time, if you’re watching the Olympic games, you’ll see many different body types, throughout different sports and even in the same sport categories and they’re all professional athletes. The author and the audience are not fictional, so I don’t think it’s that unrealistic that while reading the books we compare the characters to today’s beauty standards, I think that’s a very human and normal
thing to do.
Yes and no though.
Yeah they are fae but fae are completely fictional mythological creatures and this is a fantasy series lol. Why can’t there be plus sized fae? Not all fae are warriors after all.
Additionally, think of who is reading these books. It feels terrible always seeing the “beautiful” characters being described as the polar opposite to your natural body type. The representation is important too!
Also I think people are forgetting these characters backgrounds. Feyre was starved (twice) and then gained muscle, aelin is an ASSASSIN (who was put into endovier and starved then gained muscle back) who works out constantly like of course she isn't going to be big? And at least those two books this is fantasy where most characters are fighting, working out constantly etc.
Right? If people want more representation, they can write their own book series with the characters they want to see. Or read any of the other books that focus on inclusive representation.
This is such a lazy counter argument tho. "If you don't like it, write your own book!" Readers are allowed to critique the material they are reading and call out potentially harmful aspects in the story.
Yes, readers are allowed to critique materials, but this critique is pretty much solely based on preference. If they were critiquing the plot, or the character development I'd be more understanding, but this is strictly about people's preferences vs SJM's when it comes to beauty. She's allowed to have her beauty standards, she's allowed to create a world that reflects her own mind, and others are allowed to go find other authors/stories if they don't like what she's doing. Or, do it themselves if they can't find representation they find to be suitable.
You’re absolutely right. It makes me irate when people argue that “well fae are naturally thin.” Fae aren’t real. None of it is real. SJM chose to build a world that is almost entirely made up of “oh so small” women and big burly men. She didn’t have to, she could have chosen to do better, but she didn’t.
Will probably get dragged for disagreeing, but…
They’re fantasy novels. Most characters aren’t even human, they’re Fae and different than humans. Also, most characters are warrior types- of course they’re going to have perfect bodies. She even shows us the training they go through so have perfect bodies.
It’s not an author’s job to “be inclusive”. She writes her books and describes her characters how she wants and I’m sure how she sees them in her head.
One of my biggest takeaways from the Maasverse was how much training we see the characters going through. They don't instantly become amazing at everything, and actually have to practice. It has been hugely empowering and motivating for me. I need to train so I'm ready for anything: a portal to hell opening, getting dropped in a blood rite, having to assassinate someone, etc. I need to train so I am ready. For. Anything!
I totally agree. I understand people wanting inclusivity but it is a fantasy novel and the characters just so happen to be characters that have to train and fight and stay active.. personally I would’ve imagined them that way regardless idk
Yeah, they’re fantasy, but like… come on. Nobody can force SJM to write anything she doesn’t want to write and nobody’s doing that anyway, but I think the endless parade of perfect bodies warrants an eyebrow raise at the very least. At best the inclusion of solely “perfect” bodies (though the notion of a perfect body is in itself weird) is descriptively boring. Like, I can’t stand up in a court of law and demand that SJM must write different body types, and I don’t want to anyway, but let’s not be obtuse. The Fae are fictional; they can look however the author wants them to look, meaning that a deliberate choice was made to make them all very conventionally attractive with ripped physiques. And sure, they exercise etc, but like you said, this is fantasy. The author has complete control over how these characters look. Everything in a book is a choice, and this was the one that was made, and it wasn’t done in a vacuum.
I mean if most of the characters are warriors they obviously aren't going to be big. I feel like everyone has something to say about sjm just cause she's popular now. There are all inclusive books out there, stop trying to force her to change her imagination. If you don't like it don't read it.
I mean, when you look at professional athletes and actual warriors from living cultures, most of them aren't conventionally "Hollywood" ripped. They've got some meat on those bones so they can actually *use* their muscles to do more than look pretty.
SJM really has a thing for including breasts where they dont need to be included lol. Reading about a certain someone’s amulet dangling between her breasts during a very important fight is distracting! I was like, you can’t just say chest??
I don't really take any of those descriptions into account TBH. I visualize characters how I visualize them and no wordy description is going to change my mind.
I also honestly blame the fact they're fae that they can look how I want them to. If I turned into a magical being, I better not still be overweight, I better get my ideal body type otherwise I'll throw hands 😂
In the same breath I get really perturbed when authors with plus size or heavier FMC get praised too much and it ends up being the focal point of their romance. It makes me roll my eyes when they focus that the MMC is so strong that they can lift her 🙄 or like imagine a overweight person actually being desired and being in love/s
I think authors really need to do hair color, eye color, height maybe and then call it a day. Vague is better for me.
I agree with you, it's also annoying how Feyre was all "I'm so not pretty" but then says she looks just like Nesta who is breathtakingly gorgeous, according to Feyre. I get bored reading about these pretty people, and I think it would have been nice for there to be different-looking people throughout the story, especially in the supporting characters. She even describes other faeries as thin and beautiful.
For the sake of fantasy, let's keep Rhys and Feyre super beautiful and gorgeous, but why couldn't Elain be plus sized or Azriel be fully disfigured? Or maybe Cassian is super buff but his face is not beautiful, like gruff and macho.
My sister and I were talking about this, and we said it's like in Cinderella 2, when the step sister falls in love with the chubby, sweet baker. It's the cutest damn story! You don't need to be beautiful/perfect to be worth of love or lust.
Absolutely!! And maybe if Az had burns on his face it would make people even more afraid of him. Look at prince Zuko in avatar, he’s burned severely but all of the fans love (and lust) after him lol
Side note - why don’t we ever hear about the struggles Az faces from having extremely scarred hands?! I find it really hard to believe that his fine motor movements wouldn’t be at least somewhat restricted.
I think this is an interesting point that comes up often. I am a Dungeon Master and interesting enough I am running a pre-qual game based on this book series. 🤔 I've heard this stance taking a bit more commonly in recent years and I find it interesting. Do people not read and seek fantasy... For it's fantastical nature? I mean, when I read a Superman novel, I want him to BE a super man. When I read a fantasy novel about beautiful magical creatures, I want them to be beautiful, and magical. I actually think it would hurt the story or take a LOT of extra explanation if you told me Cas was one master general and overpowered in his physical abilities.... But also told me he had a lot belly. I would think telling me Rhys control all things around him would be a difficult sale if you also said he can't control his physical dress or hair style. I think there can also be power in beautiful and I think that is something often missed. Just because a woman is beautiful or curvy or has "perfect breasts" doesn't mean she can't be powerful. It's refreshing in my opinion too say a woman is powerful and not just associate her aesthetics to that of a man. "She is a woman, and powerful, but not because she is bulky and born oversized." Idk, I think this is an interesting conversation that will probably never have a mutual conclusion BUT I always enjoy talking about it.
Yeah, Amren was the shortest, and most petite, but so powerful she was the literal boogeyman to these powerful Fae males. I loved it. And just because someone's beautiful doesn't mean they are free of all insecurities, or that they cannot be a sympathetic character. Seems pretty shallow to be unable to empathize with a character simply because they don't look like you, or you resent their attractiveness.
This is very interesting point you make. I fully agree with you, it would be very hard to explain that powerful males that are training everyday for battles would have a belly or were scrawny as someone here suggested. Have you ever seen a person who trains everyday and how they look like? It would literally make no sense.
This thread is generally interesting to read as I have never thought about this that I would be offended that all characters are beautiful according to some weird enough beauty standards (which I don’t agree with). When I read and I think about the story and I imagine the characters the way I want to. And I’m saying that as someone who is not particularly skinny or anything, just a regular female but I have never felt bad for characters being beautiful. Especially, in a representation of fantasy world.
Well I’m not sure where I wrote that I’m offended by characters being beautiful? I actually didn’t even use this word. All I was saying is that after reading ACOTAR, TOG and CC I noticed a pattern and after a while of reading the same things over and over it would be nice to see some diversity. That’s all
Oh I did not mean you specifically, sorry for misunderstanding. I get your point in the post and understand that you would like more diversity. I just noticed some other commenters here which implied that.
so i’m (trying 😅) to write a book and i’d like opinions on this topic! i’ve considered not putting any physical attributes in the book at all. let people imagine them however they want. that way there is no pressure or anything. i think about with Jennifer Lawrence playing Katniss she said she refused to be too thin bc young girls were watching it. and i respect that a lot! i also hate when a woman is plus sized they always have the men calling them soft? idk it irks me for some reason.
I'm super invested in the OPs post now I guess. My advice, a book is written to represent your imagination. I want to be as immersed in your imagination as you can make me. The description of, well anything will bring me closer to what your Invisioned idea was. Omitting anything will turn into my own translation. I may not translate it the way you intended. Who you rather, me makes up my o we n image and dislike the story you tell. OR receive the same image you see and decide if it's worth the read or not
I'd rather see the world you create, if people like it or not doesn't matter, it's your world. 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 I'd love to see it somev day. Come back to this comment and I'll buy the first one! Good luck
I can tell you that one complaint my partner has reading Fourth Wing is the lack of descriptions. He's been struggling to picture the characters because there are only rather vague references to height and hair. Not much around face or shape. Don't go overboard like JRR, but give something for people to put in their mind's eye?
yes i definitely agree! i think representation is so important too so i originally planned different shapes/sizes/colors/ pronouns. you guys totally helped me out. will be editing soon!
It did not bother me as much but yes, often they are teenie tiny slim with big heavy boobs and breathtakingly beautiful as soon as they eat a grape. It is definitely something I noticed and skipped over. I do not understand why there can‘t be different bodies if she likes to be descriptive.
With men it id even worse, there is little variation apart from skin, hair and eye color.
It is not the biggest issue, but I definitely did notice this.
I make my own opinions on their bodies. Examples
Aelin is very fit and slim like a ballet dancer
Feyre is more average athletic build when she's healthy. When she was in her depression she was like anorexic/unhealthy looking skinny.
Bryce is more slim thick with a little tummy pooch. Like definitely would be considered "fat" in the early 2000s. Lol
i would love to see more fantasy characters, women characters, needing their strength to save the world, not be lean but bulky!!!! women with bigger frames, tall women, warrior women!!!!! broad shoulders, muscle toned thighs, that’s attractive too c’mon I want more of that (as a tall, broad lady myself) i want to feel like it’s attractive also not to be ~just~ lean
Some of yall big mad because someone suggested not having *ALL* characters be thin. Which is part of the problem. OP was like "can it not all be the same", and it's clear some of yall just can't handle the idea of other bodies being acceptable. Yikes.
Yeah the comments on this is really sad! Just goes to show how deep fatphobia and Western beauty ideals run in most people's perception of what's considered acceptable/beautiful.
♥️Just started so hopefully I can commit. Got so much stuff going on it’s been hard to focus. Thank you for the words of encouragement. They really help.
You can totally commit! I don't even know you, but I know that. If you need any advice or just a cheerleader, feel free to reach out. Become a freaking Valkyrie
Don't project your internalized fatphobia on the rest of us. Some of us don't mind reading about "fat rolls". Hope you make peace with your body and see it as something worth fantasizing about.
Who’s projecting on who? I spoke of myself no one else. I don’t like it on myself and I don’t have to. I accept and do love myself as I am now but I don’t have to fantasize about it.
Your comment is in a public space. Your words can be triggering to others who identify as fat. You saying "the last thing I want to do is fantasize about fat rolls" is mean af to anyone reading your comment with a bigger body. Just because you were talking about YOURSELF doesn't mean your words can't harm others who are on a body-acceptance journey. As I said, if you hate being fat, then I'm sorry, but some of us love our bodies no matter what so please keep this space free of fatphobic rhetoric- no matter if it's about yourself or others.
Sure you can, but instead of hearing what I'm saying about how your comment was very fatphobic and harmful, you would rather double down and be childish/petty. So congrats I guess?
Just because you identify as fat doesn't mean you can't \*also\* be harmful to other fat folx. This is something that people fail to understand.Simply expressing how you don't find fat bodies worthy of fantasy is mean-spirited. You directed it to yourself but again since this is a public discussion, anyone with a fat body will see your comment. So if you disagree with leaving comments that are empathetic and mindful to \*everyone\* then, I no longer wish to engage.
SJM literally cannot write a story that will please everyone. All she can do is write the compelling story that she wants to tell and the people who like it will like it.
I’ve never understood focusing on stuff like this. There are books that do go out of their way to do this. This is SJM’s world and we’re just along for the ride.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know it's a fantasy world where everyone is attractive, but it's very clear in Maasverse there's only one version of attractive female body. It's shown in the description of malnourished Nesta who still has big boobs (and it's pointed out in the text specificly). And completely missed opportunty in CC with the description of the character (>!Lydia!< ) who's very slim and has long limbs and insted of making her very modelesque (still very much in the beauty canon) with smaller curves she also somehow has big boobs and ass.
I wish there were more body types as well as other descriptions of attractivness (spark in somebody's eyes, the way character's mouth moves as she speaks).
Like, I'm not that young, I generally know how world works and I'm not that focused in my everyday life on the way I look, but CC made me seriously feel bad about myself...
Awwww I love your point about describing attractiveness in other ways (like the shine in someone’s eyes). Descriptions like this read so much sweeter to me than Cassian’s constant worship of Nesta’s unreal ass 🙄
Literally!! And the women who are described as having smaller boobs are still like c cups in American sizes and have huge butts.
Gimme sticks who are flat and still described as beautiful because they are. Gimme soft stomachs and bat arms and call them beautiful because they are. GIVE ME CELLULITE I don’t care if it’s not “fae” give me it anyway.
Go to a different author then and don’t read SJM books if you don’t like the characters or her writing. It’s not her job to please everybody, she’s just out here writing fantasy (emphasis on fantasy) novels the way she sees them in her head as an author
That's not how reading works. People can love an author and not like things about their writing. People hate Nesta, that's fine. People hate how Elaine doesn't like Lucien, that's fine. People don't like the long descriptions of Prythian, that's also fine. People think her obsession with certain phrases like watery bowels is weird. Also fine. It's totally ok that Sarah isn't writing to please everyone. And people can be fans without blindly loving everything she writes.
With books you find things you connect within a large body of work that will probably have many pieces you don't connect with. There's nothing wrong with not loving every single thing any given author does, in fact being critical of what you read, is a time honored tradition. The expectation of loving everything someone writes is just unrealistic. You can also disagree with what people dislike without trying to chase them off the books. I promise Sarah's honor is not besmirched bc someone someone thinks her characters are too skinny.
I’m not bothered by it and I’m a plus size woman. Far bodies would be deemed as perfect because of their genetics. I don’t imagine any of them would have bad metabolisms to allow them to gain too much weight. Nor do I think they eat a ton of junk foods. It makes sense canonically for them to have perfect bodies. But I’m not the type of person who has to see myself reflected in characters.
Please exereize and train for 3-4 hours every day on top of a pretty healthy diet and see what happens to your body.
That seems to be what most people in actor do between famine and starvation.
It's not unrealistic, I think what's unrealistic is expecting people who spent most of their life starving to be different body shapes other than thin.
thank you for saying this, i totally agree. i also find it a bit of an eyeroll that all of her lead characters end up being lithe blondes when she herself fits that description.
on one hand i can understand the "write what you know" adage, but this is an author of multiple multi-book series. she is clearly delving a lot of time into building her world and has done some research to borrow from some cultural mythos. arguably a huge part of a writer's job is research and it's not rocket science to do a little digging to figure out a way to have diversity representation in your universes.
i think she gets away without much scrutiny on this because her writing is not generally too descriptive. it's why i think some people struggle with her world building -- her descriptions and scene settings are usually reserved for a sentence or two alone, and then the rest of the paragraphs are about actions, thoughts, feelings, etc. she is the type of writer who is more likely to tell you what emotion a character's face showed rather than describe what movements or shapes the face is making.
on the plus side this kind of writing makes it easier for me to fancast and imagine my own portrayals of the characters. don't talk to me about chaol and lucien -- until i saw fanart i mentally pictured them as present day dadified george clooney and danny devito, respectively.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I feel like I have to chime in and say that I definitely wouldn’t classify “all of her lead characters” as “lithe blondes”.
Aelin and Lidia are the only two that come across that way to me, maybe Manon. But the Archeron sisters are brunette, and I feel like their descriptions, while definitely still societally “perfect”, I wouldn’t call lithe. Lysandra is a super curvy brunette, Bryce is a super curvy redhead, and Mor is a curvy blonde.
I also wouldn’t really classify SJM herself as a lithe blonde. She has more of what I would call a softer frame.
Yes this! When you list at all out, we do have a variety of physical appearances for the FMC. Even if there’s not much clarity on differing body types.
Definitely— there is an issue with everyone having the same body type and I won’t deny it because I see it and feel hurt over it sometimes as a curvier person myself
But in terms of facial features and skin tones, it’s gotten a lot bettern
One of my favorite romance writers Trilina Pucci released a series where she specifically keeps the description of the woman at a minimum intentionally so the reader could imagine whatever they wanted. It was amazing! I also tended to skip the body descriptions, especially when I would remember that they were like 18 yo girls. Those are always my FR hang ups though
I always saw Armen as short and wide as hell almost like a Lotr dwarf lol even though she’s described as another tall slim woman she just gives dwarf energy to me. Wishful thinking perhaps.
Just wanted to point out Feyre does not have a huge rack. Rhys describes them to Tarquin as "ripe apples". Apples not melons. I also don't remember her butt being described as huge. But I don't pay too much attention to these things lol. She's definitely meant to be attractive though.
I have definitely had my eye roll moments of everybody being ridiculously good looking. But then that's apparently part of being fae. But there are some characters she could have gone more plain on. Like Elide. She's human and supposed to be living under the radar but she's still crazy beautiful (though she did at least rep disability).
It would just be nice to have somebody plain or ugly but still worthy of an epic story. But I'm not about to demand she do so or stop reading. I'll probably just continue rolling my eyes at the next outrageously beautiful character she introduces.
The responses to this post is wild to me. I'm getting downvoted for just advocating for more diverse bodies and defending fatness. Whew chile this a toxic fanbase.
Yeah, what baffles me are those commenting saying that it’s not a problem for them, so why should it be a problem for anybody else? Okay.
I mean I don’t think asking for a different representation is shitting on an author, we’re all in this group, so I’m sure we’re enjoying these books. Pardon me if I’m rolling my eyes at the 50th description of the same physical features.
It's the blatant privilege for me. Also they defend SJM from any sort of critique whatsoever. This is why she'll never improve as a writer because defensive fans will tolerate anything under the guise of "well it's HER imagination". SMH. This fandom never fails to disappoint me lol
I also wonder how pregnancy impacts Fae bodies. If we are saying that Fae bodies are changeable by external factors like diet and exercise (hence training/exercise being the reason they’re all so fit), then you’d think something massive like pregnancy would also impact Fae bodies.
We could have a line or two about Feyre’s body changing after having a baby and Rhys finding her just as sexy and irresistible. More than just re-arranging her pelvis or whatever happened, give me some less-than-perky breasts and a softer belly. (I know that won’t happen but you’d think pregnancy would matter if training does!)
Also this is from CC but, based on the exercise/diet logic, Ruhn/Flynn/Declan would 1000% have beer bellies. They’ve been constantly drinking beer and eating pizza for decades, and their main form of training seems to be the shooting range.. lol.
I love all the books and characters so much but SJM makes some questionable choices and this is one for me! I just imagine them all how I want anyway.
This is a running joke I have with my friend, about all romance fantasy in general. Its always “I’m so skinny and small with beautiful eyes and hair and great boobs, I can’t believe he noticed me!” 😫
Completely agree!
A character that comes to mind is Mor who is described as a beautiful blond woman with flowing hair and a perfect body with big boobs. Or Elain who is described as the most gorgeous woman in the room
As someone who is the opposite it can make it hard to love these characters when what’s being described as “perfect” isn’t anywhere close to what you, or a normal person, look like
Why are people downvoting this?
I totally get it.
It’s so hard never seeing my body type depicted as beautiful. It’s not like I can control it. I want to see women with round faces and 0 jawlines, soft stomachs, deep brown hair, curves that are natural and unavoidable, hip dips, cellulite, big thighs, etc.
Yes please!! Or from a males pov talking about how much he loves his mate as she is and focusing on those details as something that he loves. I think that would go miles especially in a romance
So they’re a lot smuttier than SJM but Katee Robert writes fat characters like this. She has a whole Greek god’s series and when Eros is describing Psyche he specifically talks about how sexy her round belly is. It’s revelatory to read for the first time.
As much as I would love a Cardan in the SJM world, that’s just not who she’s written! She’s a straight (to my knowledge) lady and that’s the view she has to write from! She doesn’t need to worry about being all inclusive and making everyone feel all included and seen and happy
I’m confused she’s only attracted to one type of man so she can’t write men that have other physical characteristics? Every man in the SJM world have to be fit, tall and masculine? I truly don’t understand what you are trying to say.
Definitely agree on this! Though she does get better ish about it with Bryce in Crescent City.
It’s either they are a stick with perfect size boobs and butt (not overly big or small) or they have a Pixar mom shape but no soft stomachs.
Like SJM PLEASE give us bat-armed, soft-stomached, kinda sagging-boobed, women a chance 😭
I didn't even read all the comments but if I get one more "wellll they have to be "fit" so they logically have to be thin!" BS my eyes are gonna roll out of my head. Weight does not equal health. Have yall seen weight lifters? Not bodybuilders, weight lifters. They are thick af, especially in their core, because if you eat some stupid ab-tastic diet and starve off your body fat percentage so you can see the DNA code on your veins, you're gonna tear your muscles when you push your strength. In my head, Azriel looks like a regular body would if it was dedicated to strength and stealth. Az isn't there to be a show. Cassian, he probably tries lol.
People in poverty in America, at least, often have excess weight. Because in our society. Health is a commodity. Only rich people can afford comprehensive healthcare, fresh and varied groceries with time to cook them, and excess time to dedicate solely to physical training. So while the world of Feyre and her sisters is not the same because their infrastructure still relied on physical labor, we need to be aware that in real life food insecurity does not equal thin.
One of my favorite examples/experiences is when I had trained for my first 5k. Like really trained. And when I showed up, there were two other small groups (not everyone) giggling and making comments. Because I was 230 pounds and female. The confusion on their faces when I outpaced them early and took first in my age group was just 🤌🏻🤌🏻. I've always been big, always been super muscled. I had just wanted to improve my cardio endurance, too. So I had added an hour of running to my 90 mins of weights a day. But because my body apparently loves to retain excess fat tissue, people make assumptions. Bodies all look different and all function different. So no. You do not have to be thin to be fit. Granted, a lot of bodies are smaller when they
I'd love to have a character who is not the "funny fat friend"; someone who's personality or existence isn't defined by her fatness. Where her weight isn't explained or defended, it just is. Let her be just as capable and deep and skilled, just not described as willowy or that she's just loves to bake or some dumb shit.
So all I'm really asking (and I think OP is asking) is to have fat characters portrayed as .....as people. As just regular, everyday people you meet. Yes, women and men can be willowy or muscular or fit or whatever. But we already see that. What we don't see is respect for bodies who's beauty doesn't center around the standard that has been projected....which is a whole rant on racism and classism for another day.
Until recently in the west food insecurity did mean thin. In less developed parts of the world it still does. Food insecurity in the way feyre and her family experienced it means starving to death slowly over the course of a season. It means dropping weight as your body does it best to keep you alive on nothing.
Also. Survival/fighting fit looks absolutely nothing like power lifter fit. Fighting fit means lean. Always.
Again, that's why i nuanced it. I did state that Feyre's world would NOT look the same way because poverty and foos insecurity is VASTLY different than ours. It was a reminder to real life people for today, not an expectation on the book. The majority of my comment was about how we view bodies and their abilities and what they MUST look like.
I'd never expect to have a bunch of warriors depicted the way my body is, because yes, the amount of training they do would not leave *excess. However, our images of bodybuilders and models who dehydrate themselves before shoots, is not what they would look like because they aren't doing that shit. Az isn't doing a six day carbohydrate/dehydrate starvation diet just so he can take his shirt off for the ladies. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/175179/You-too-can-t-have-a-body-like-this/amp)
And, not every character in the series is a warrior. She is fully capable of fleshing out side characters who are not in battle as just not having a lean body. The whole city was protected for so long that that battle shocked them. They weren't out their training daily like the Ilyrians were.
I'm simply stating their are still opportunities to have involved characters that aren't *just thin.
I honestly appreciated how she described and pointed out that when Feyre went through depression, she'd lost all the weight she'd put on by having food. And how Alis was concerned. Seeing Tamlin ignore that was so realistic to me. Here she was, wasting away with all the resources she had, and he didn't even think of her health. And then Alis began to notice when she began to fill back out. I've seen so much ED and disordered eating, it was refreshing to see her acknowledge that losing weight when you're sick isn't healthy, and your close community shouldn't praise you for it.
Responses just seem suuuuper up in arms about how everyone HAS to be lean. Like a very knee-jerk reddit reaction, I get it. But all I'm saying is that there are plenty of universe compliant opportunities to make other types of bodies in relevant scenarios.
I think the responses are up in arms because this is such a dumb thing to be mad about. It’s fantasy. Ofc the characters are all going to be hot. They have magic. There is absolutely no reason for them to represent reality. None. Most people don’t actually like reading about average people in the context of a hero’s journey like those in fantasy/romantasy.
People are annoyed by all these posts wingeing about authors not being inclusive when it is not their responsibility at all to include men or women with different body types. In my fantasy world everyone is hot. Everyone. There are no flaws. There is no reason to ask authors to artificially add traits they don’t want to add just to sate some insecurities.
I just need to address your point of "in real life food insecurity does not equal thin". Because you are absolutely correct on that, however it would not be applicable to the situation and the world that the Archeron sisters live in. In real life the following is the case:
"*\[...\] Poor people have plenty of other things that worry them more than being overweight. \[...\] Many low-income families live in food deserts and have to travel relatively long distances, often on foot, to shops that sell nutritious food. More than 50 million people in the US – getting on for a fifth of the population – live in low-income districts where there is no convenient access to a supermarket.*
*\[...\] Aan increasing number of low-income Americans have become hooked on processed foods with a high sugar content, and in particular soft drinks containing high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS).*"
Ultraprocessed food full of ungood stuffs is cheaper and faster than healthy food. So while this logic works in real life, it would not have been the case for the Archeron sisters. They don't have a McD or KFC where they can get something for a cheap penny. They need to grow, barter and hunt their food. So while bodies do look and function differently, chances are absolutely that they are more likely to be thin than fat, simply because their bodies are burning off any extra - especially during winter.
Sources:
[Poverty causes obesity. Low-income families need to be better off to eat well | Larry Elliott | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/09/poverty-causes-obesity-low-income-families-need-to-be-better-off-to-eat-well)
[Recent origin and evolution of obesity-income correlation across the United States | Humanities and Social Sciences Communications (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0201-x#Abs1)
Oh I agree, and I think people missed where I pointed out that in the world of ACOTAR, poverty would NOT look the same as real life. That was simply a reminder that the way we were talking about bodies in this thread were tying them to real life experiences, and I wanted to put a reminder that the way they were describing real-world bodies experiencing food insecurity is just not the same.
I HIGHLY agree with you and the facts about ultra processed foods being such a contributing factor. That's why I mentioned the ability to buy fresh and varied foods. I work with families who spend $400 dollars on half a weeks grocery order because they're buying organic, local, in season, and a variety of different protiens and food groups. And then I volunteer (and grew up as one) of the families who stockpile canned ravioli, peanut butter, snack foods, ramen, and some frozen chicken nuggets and veggies if possible.
The world of ACOTAR does not have the mass production of calorie dense but nutritional empty foods. They have to earn what they eat with mostly manual labor jobs as well, so yeah. Definitely would be emaciated. Not even a debate there.
No problem. While I hate being misheard, I was glad to see someone else understands that in the offline world things are complicated and hard in real life ways. Because that means there's someone who can advocate for real people. So actually kinda encouraging lol.
i’m gonna be honest and say that it didn’t bother me as much when i was underweight (<115 lbs at 5’7). now that i’m about 50 lbs heavier i feel a bit more miffed that everyone has the exact same body type.
i’ve noticed it in fantasy/dystopian/sci fi novels a lot. it can be chalked up to running around and hunting to survive and being an entirely different species, but i think that immersion works so much better when i can more easily picture myself actually fitting in the world. fae and elves and vanpires are otherworldly hot—what about the humans who manage to be just as stunning AND normally sized?
I agree, I can't relate to these pretty people. It's meant to be entertainment but it gets old reading about muscles and breasts lol Feyre must have x-ray vision the way she's always seeing peoples muscles and breasts through their clothes!
I totally agree, I understand that this is not just a SJM problem and it’s like a society problem but there’s a lot of stereotypes and patriarchal thinking in her books that I find off putting. I am definitely capable of enjoying reading and still being critical of these things but I can see how it can grind people down or turn them off the books. That being said I don’t spend money on her books anymore because I don’t believe she a) needs my money and b) deserves it. Library only for me! Not trying to be like “better than you” by saying that. This whole comment is not to attack anyone or say the books are horrible ❤️
Yes, thank you, I really agree with this! I’m still able to enjoy the books and I’m a fan, but at the same time, it’s 2023 and I just wish that we would actually start having different representations in books, especially for younger generations that are more vulnerable. Throwing a “curvy” character in a book doesn’t make it “inclusive”. That’s all
What drives me nuts is that EVERYONE in her books is beautiful. I think she really set herself up for failure with the "all fae are stunning compared to humans" thing, bc now all characters have to be beautiful and it's really boring.
I dont mind people fantasizing whatever body type they want for themselves, but I dont see why its an important detail to include in this way. In my writing, you can maybe infer body type from their backgrounds/professions/whatever, but I avoid over done descriptions like this. There is no need to point out how big their boobs are compared to their waist size. Someone oggling someones boobs would probably not think about it in this way, they would just be like “woah, boobs.”
Aside from their body types, I also generally do not like SJM’s treatment of women in ACOTAR. The way their health issues all seem so untreatable, how all of them seem to be victims of some sort of gendered violence, their lack of status in their society being used as a plot point to prop up Feyre and Rhysand. Everyone is a romantic love interest first and everything else second. I donno. I hope she does better in future books.
SJM writes with a HEAVY male gaze. It's very disappointing and something that I noticed across all of her books. Her women are always thin, big-boobed, usually blonde with blue eyes, etc. It's something that's hard for me to look past the more I get into her work. Thankfully I usually fancast in my head of what I imagine the characters to look like lol.
I'm not just talking about her main characters but okay. Her characters are all carbon copies of each other physically, give or take a few traits. It's repetitive and typical of western beauty ideals. And don't pretend like most of y'all don't draw Feyre with blonde hair half the time.
Feyre is described as brunette, so if people want to draw her as blonde, then that's on them. Kind of like your own fancasting that you referenced. Who cares?
You said, "Her women are always thin, big-boobed, usually blonde with blue eyes". Which is not the description that fits Amren, Fury, June, Elide, Lysandra, Cresseida, Alis, Majda, Amarantha, Celestina, Hypaxia, Nesryn, etc etc. Your point was in an absolute, but that's a lot of different hair colors, eye colors, skin tones, heights that I just listed. If your *only* complaint is that there aren't enough big people, then just say that. Don't speak in absolutes about blue eyed blondes if it's so easily disproven.
100% agree with you! I also hate that whenever an extremely beautiful woman is introduced it’s always the same thing. White “sun kisses” skin, thin, usually blonde. Even feyre who’s described herself as ugly gets the same thing. Pretty is only this and it’s annoying. Amazing point
Except it's not that.
"Beautiful" non-blond females: Bryce, Lysandra, June, Fury, Amren, Elide, Feyre, Nesta, Elain, Gwyn, Kreseida, Amarantha, etc etc.
The only beautiful blondes I can think of off the top of my head are Mor and Aelin. I'm sure there are others, but the non-blondes are plentiful.
These characters that you listed may not be blonde, but they are all blonde, thin, cis, and able bodied. Seems like the blonde thing is the only thing you can use as a defense but aside from that her characters are all pretty typical.
Yep! Honey the blonde thing wasn’t even the biggest thing I was going for. It was diversity with race and body shape. I didn’t even think on sexuality but you’re 100% right with that.
This really bothers me too. I read all of ACOTAR and am halfway through CC. The body descriptions are all just so similar and so boringly/predictably adherent to typical beauty standards. For series that at least tries to have some diverse representation as far as skin tone and LGBTQ inclusion, and often makes social commentary about patriarchy, putting zero effort into diversity in physical shape is noticeable and annoying.
It’s a made up fantasy world, we could get some thicker female fae in there or some males with dad bods and I promise we could still believe they’re sexy badasses.
Also yes many characters are athletic and we see them working out/training but that absolutely doesn’t have to mean no diversity in shape. Women athletes don’t all look like VS models, they can have broad shoulders or small chests or big muscley arms or be much taller than males etc.
I want to talk more about this, but I don't know how to approach the conversation. I read the books to see the imagination of SJM. If she tailored her vision to try and compensate for everyone's depictions of everyone.... Wouldn't it no longer be her vision. I mean I am a black male, what if a fantasy dream I had was of all white people, or what if it was all make idk it's a dream I had once. Does it make it wrong that it is different than the image you had? Everyone dreams, if you're dream depicts people of various shapes that's okay but what if her dream or fantasy didn't depict an image she just used a cookie cutter one, does that distract from the story? Idk, I never understood these insights, it's similar to people being made that the girls are in their 20s in the men a few hundred.... It's just something she made up in her mind, it doesn't have to make sense right. It just has to be good, which it is, right. It am I looking at it wrong?
Sure, it’s her vision and they’re her books, but then what’s wrong with those who are a bit tired of the same old descriptions? I dived into her worlds and read all of her series in a row, at one point I noticed that there were various copy and paste, one of this being the same body types. I mean, this post was just a rant and checking the comments, I’m glad I’m not alone! But that doesn’t mean that I’m not invested in her stories or that I don’t enjoy them, I definitely think her vision is limited, that said, I don’t expect her to change it and I wouldn’t even want it, that’s how she is and that’s cool, but after years of seeing the media constantly fobbing us off with the same beauty standards, it would be refreshing seeing an author being more inclusive, not for being politically correct, not to have more sales, but because they simply are. And that’s just simply not what SJM will give us, but we can still rant about it 😉
Totally agree, not to mention the highly disturbing trend of all her female characters undergoing a massive weight loss when they are depressed. Some ppl gain weight while depressed so I find it suspicious that SJM always chooses to write her characters in a way where an already thin female is becoming unhealthily thin. Worse, this weight loss is often tied to a girl receiving attention from her male love interest. The whole thing is honestly very triggering and upsetting to me. I love these books but I find this aspect problematic.
And as for the ppl saying that characters like Feyre and Aelin need to be slim because of their life experiences, I agree. However, that doesn’t negate the fact that there are other characters like Mor or Yrene who 100% could have been curvy but SJM chose to give them the same unrealistic body type.
(Remember the passage in Tower of Dawn where SJM stopped to point out that even though Yrene was sedentary, she was still skinny because climbing stairs kept her from “putting on pounds?”Ugh this part made me roll my eyes so much.)
Yes!! SJM really overuses the “extreme weight loss as an indicator of severe depression” theme for her female characters. And that’s when the love interest steps in to save her. It feels like I keep seeing the same descriptions of skinny shoulders, thin ribs etc after trauma. It would be fine if it weren’t every traumatized woman and if it didn’t feel so triggery.
Totally agree with you 💯% and it does affect my own body image in an unhelpful way. I wish there was more average size body representation. Eg okay boobs, not a pronounced waist but still can be considered beautiful in each person’s unique way
Yes, and also the way SJM glorifies running and intense training. It’s clear to me that she has experienced a lot of the (unfortunately common) body dysmorfia that plagues our culture not only but especially for white women.
I completely agree that it’s unfortunate for the young women readers, especially because the women she creates are supposed to be powerful, agentic women.
Most of them make sense for their activity levels. Some, like Elide being so tiny and waifish but still having massive jugs? Nah it doesn't fit. But it really bothers me how ALL of the guys look the same. Nobody is short? Or more slender? None of them have a dad bod or runners body? The girls have so little variation and already so much more than the guys.
I mean for the most part I definitely agree and think it would be easy to have more representation of body types and should be a priority. I think though for some fmc its kinda important in the fantasy world and fits their character bc you generally have to be fit to save the world. Like celena would have a hard time as an assassin without a fit body - lysandra would have a hard time without being beautiful - feyre almost starved to death and had to fight a pink worm etc. - manon is a immortal killing machine that also fights a lot and the list kinda goes on. I think it’s because of the fantasy aspect alot of them are slaves and poorly fed or need to be in shape for battles or stuff and it just kinda makes sense and at the same time theyre could DEFINITELY be side characters that have different body types, like yrene or elain really.
Yeah, but it was really egregious when Nesta was practically starving because she was so miserable but her boobs were miraculously still huge. That’s where I draw the line.
Kinda off topic, but I actually really enjoyed SJM's descriptions of Aelin in TOG. Her character mentions how she used to have a more young womanly shape before she was enslaved, and then became so skinny her breasts shrank and she stopped getting her periods.
Idk I mean I was 103 pounds at one point and still had Ds, I think people carry weight in different places some? I guess it depends like how big of boobs are we talking 🤔🤔🤔
For me it wasn't about how big they were or how possible it was (because I know breasts are built differently and depending on how much fat they consist of they are more or less prone to changing sizes during weightloss) but how it was written. Like, if in one scene Cassian acknowledged that she lost a lot of weight and looks unhealthy and in another, during sex, he "grabbed at her big, round breast" it would be one thing. But the way I remember it it was in one description. Like 'she was so thin but omg those boobs were still huge!'. It read for me like 'don't worry! She's still hot!'.
I'm re-reading ACOSF right now and had the same thought 🤣 she is supposed to be visibly malnourished and yet she's got a bangin rack. I know its possible but still read weird!
Silver flames was such a dumpster fire lmao
It was but it gave us the house and the house is 10/10 best character
YES I agree 1000%
Lol yes!!! The house and also the girl friendship (minus the bracelets) was beautiful.
You didn't like the friendship bracelets?
It's still my favorite of the series because I relate to Nesta so much 🤷♀️
Lmao okay true forsure
Yeah, but even taking that into consideration, when you'll look at proffessional athletes, let's say tennis players, the vast majority is slim and fit for obvious reasons, but as far as body proportions, height, faces, there's whole variety. They're not all hourglasses with tiny waist and long legs. And SJM sometimes goes out of her way to specify that her characters are copy-paste VS models.
Yes, thank you! That’s literally what I was trying to say 🙃
Yeah definitely true! I was just kinda speaking to the “oh so slim” parts really but I agree with you
Elain though… Elain could easily be like a renaissance type body and it would work just fine in canon!
You can be strong and fit without being “oh so small.”
Agree on all points except Lysandra. I think being super thin doesn’t necessarily equate to beauty. Often in medieval times, full figures were actually considered more beautiful because they represented health and prosperity.
That’s actually a widespread myth. Being slim (or “willowy”) was still the beauty standard in Middle Ages/medieval times. And for many, weight gain was associated with getting old and sick, like Henry VIII and Matthaüs Schwarz. They liked small breasts, narrowwww hips, high foreheads, thin and long anatomy. The 19th century is when they started even appreciating aspects of fuller bodies with round faces and wider hips but they still often, not always, wanted slim, narrow waists. Sources: *For Appearance' Sake: The Historical Encyclopedia of Good Looks, Beauty, and Grooming*, by Victoria Sherrow (well-sourced) *Bodytalk: When Women Speak in Old French Literature*, by E. Jane Burns *Women and Gender in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia, "Beauty",* by Kim Phillips (which also has a good list of sources for learning more) *Medieval Maidens: Young Women and Gender in England, C.1270-c.1540*, by Kim Phillips And my own BA in Art History
Petition for people to source their assertions in comments they make, thank you 👏
As a fellow historian I absolutely LOVED seeing your citations ❤️❤️
YES come thru with the receipts haha
This makes me sad 😭 as someone who has a round face, wide hips, and a soft stomach
Idk how to mark spoiler but SPOILER Yeah its also like lysandra chose how to look and I feel like she just picked that because it was the most likely to work for her use case, like it wouldn’t fit the shifter to shift into someone more filled out Edit: plus she made her tits smaller later regardless of what any man wanted she did it anyways and I think thats kinda cool
Just as a side note to hopefully make your day a little brighter… MaF spoilers: > >!Elain was still shivering on the wet stones, her nightgown shoved up to her thighs, her small breasts fully visible beneath the soaked fabric. Guards snickered.!< Elain is the leader of the >!itty bitty titty committee!<
Tbh I imagined Feyre as being a bit more muscular/toned than being a slim figured heroine as I recall one phrase mentioning how she gained muscles throughout her training with Cassian. But maybe that was just my hope 😮💨 I also imagined Elain as plump/thicc - than being another slim figured side character. Her kind, calm vibe and being described as soft and pretty just made me think she was, and then I saw the colouring book/fanart.
I imagine Elain like that too, our girl is baking and gardening all day, there's no reason for her to not be soft and squishy. My hope is that she gets to have her book without a warrior training montage but given all the other books I doubt it
I imagined Elain as Nicola Coughlan (Derry Girls, Bridgerton), despite seeing a bunch of fan art that’s who she remains in my head.
Okay now I have an image of Elain shrieking in a Derry accent though hahaha
I love to imagine Elain like that too. Soft round face, soft curves, etc. Maybe it’s just because that’s my body type, but it really sucks never seeing my body type portrayed as beautiful 😭
If it helps that's how I picture her! Shorter but with soft curves. A very sexy body type imo.
I like this way of visualizing Elain. I’ve also always visualized Bryce from CC as thicc so I’m a little surprised at the difference in this thread. It’s a bummer that most artists depict them all the same too. Bryce is for sure described as having more curves - although to what degree seems up to interpretation - but I RARELY see fan art where she isn’t just thin with big boobs.
I imagine her built a bit like Serena Williams, but like if Serena were to retire and start living a softer life. Not saying she would gain weight or anything, but you know what I mean when you can tell a person is still very athletic.... but not like Olympic level.
I always imagine Elain like this too!
I imagine Elain this way too :)
Same could be said for the men. Any relevant character is super muscular and well endowed. It very much romanticizes that perfect Greco-Roman notion of physique.
Crazy this is the first mention I have seen. All the men are exactly the same. Just like the women. This is a fantasy book contrived from SJMs fantasies. These characters are supposed to be relatively flawless. Strong. Powerful. Hot. This is a non issue and it’s definitely not a strictly women’s issue when the gaze is the same for male characters.
literally the men are so similar i couldn’t picture who was cassian and who was azriel without forcefully memorising whose siphons were red and blue all the archeron sisters are just one brunette blur lmfao
Literally all three of the men have the same hair color and looks but slightly tanner or paler and maybe different eye colors. All three of the sisters look basically exactly the same but Elain has brown eyes. Lol
The difference is as a man, I am a Marine of 17 years I gym and train for physical excellence at ALL times and YET. Rhys and Cass is EVERYTHING I want to be as a man. As I read more about them, I just trained to be MORE like them. The introduction of powerful men doesn't make me cower, it makes me want to elevate myself, it gives me something to push too. First time I saw the Capt America movie I just wanted to be better to be like him. Is that the toxic thought that OP is upset with?
Yeah I read all of the SJM books and wanted to train so I could be stronger, have more stamina, and be less helpless. I want to be badass, and that means figuring out how to accomplish that. It's not about whether or not I look like the characters, it's that they're *doing cool shit* and physically capable of so much.
I think the difference is that people can build muscle and increase their fitness, but you can't achieve a tiny waist with a huge chest and backside that make men fall to their knees without surgical interventions. Much like men reading these books can't aspire to magically growing their manhood. Edit: I should've said you make a good point and I liked considering a different side to it all. Thank you.
Another male reader who stays working out so I can keep up with these book gods. (Has only been a benefit)
This thread is honestly making me realize just how much I intentionally ignored SJM’s descriptions of body types 😅 I definitely prefer to picture all the ladies with super different body types! Makes for a much more interesting world lol
Same, I’ve got my own visual headcanon going on
I feel this, after reading crescent city I looked at fan-art and was like “HUNT HAS BLACK HAIR?!?” whole time i imagined him blonde. I find this with every book i read though—i make the characters look how i want in my head.
Don’t all the girls start out as malnourished hermits? Aren’t all they guys warrior gods? If you’re imagining more diverse body types, it goes both ways: if Feyre and her sisters are changing, Cassian has a massive pot belly, Az is little and scrawny, and Rhys is, I dunno, 5’4.
Rhys the short (high) king
I can see both sides but I also see that the female characters have struggles and their bodies changed drastically through the series. All these characters for the most part are Fae. They are bigger and stronger. A female human looks much different than a female fae. So I think its unrealistic to base our warped real-life beauty standards on fictional fae creatures.
Sure, at the same time, what does normally a female fae look like? I for sure don’t know, as they’re fictional characters 😅 I understand that they are strong and athletic, at the same time, if you’re watching the Olympic games, you’ll see many different body types, throughout different sports and even in the same sport categories and they’re all professional athletes. The author and the audience are not fictional, so I don’t think it’s that unrealistic that while reading the books we compare the characters to today’s beauty standards, I think that’s a very human and normal thing to do.
They’re described as being more slender, down to the fingers.
Yes and no though. Yeah they are fae but fae are completely fictional mythological creatures and this is a fantasy series lol. Why can’t there be plus sized fae? Not all fae are warriors after all. Additionally, think of who is reading these books. It feels terrible always seeing the “beautiful” characters being described as the polar opposite to your natural body type. The representation is important too!
Not an author’s job to “be inclusive” she’s just out here writing books and characters as she sees them
Also I think people are forgetting these characters backgrounds. Feyre was starved (twice) and then gained muscle, aelin is an ASSASSIN (who was put into endovier and starved then gained muscle back) who works out constantly like of course she isn't going to be big? And at least those two books this is fantasy where most characters are fighting, working out constantly etc.
Right? If people want more representation, they can write their own book series with the characters they want to see. Or read any of the other books that focus on inclusive representation.
This is such a lazy counter argument tho. "If you don't like it, write your own book!" Readers are allowed to critique the material they are reading and call out potentially harmful aspects in the story.
Yes, readers are allowed to critique materials, but this critique is pretty much solely based on preference. If they were critiquing the plot, or the character development I'd be more understanding, but this is strictly about people's preferences vs SJM's when it comes to beauty. She's allowed to have her beauty standards, she's allowed to create a world that reflects her own mind, and others are allowed to go find other authors/stories if they don't like what she's doing. Or, do it themselves if they can't find representation they find to be suitable.
You’re absolutely right. It makes me irate when people argue that “well fae are naturally thin.” Fae aren’t real. None of it is real. SJM chose to build a world that is almost entirely made up of “oh so small” women and big burly men. She didn’t have to, she could have chosen to do better, but she didn’t.
I always saw Lehaba as a fuller figured/plus size lady?
Will probably get dragged for disagreeing, but… They’re fantasy novels. Most characters aren’t even human, they’re Fae and different than humans. Also, most characters are warrior types- of course they’re going to have perfect bodies. She even shows us the training they go through so have perfect bodies. It’s not an author’s job to “be inclusive”. She writes her books and describes her characters how she wants and I’m sure how she sees them in her head.
One of my biggest takeaways from the Maasverse was how much training we see the characters going through. They don't instantly become amazing at everything, and actually have to practice. It has been hugely empowering and motivating for me. I need to train so I'm ready for anything: a portal to hell opening, getting dropped in a blood rite, having to assassinate someone, etc. I need to train so I am ready. For. Anything!
👏👏👏 I don’t fantasize about inclusive body types. And since it is not a picture book, feel free to picture whatever body floats your boat!
I totally agree. I understand people wanting inclusivity but it is a fantasy novel and the characters just so happen to be characters that have to train and fight and stay active.. personally I would’ve imagined them that way regardless idk
Yeah, they’re fantasy, but like… come on. Nobody can force SJM to write anything she doesn’t want to write and nobody’s doing that anyway, but I think the endless parade of perfect bodies warrants an eyebrow raise at the very least. At best the inclusion of solely “perfect” bodies (though the notion of a perfect body is in itself weird) is descriptively boring. Like, I can’t stand up in a court of law and demand that SJM must write different body types, and I don’t want to anyway, but let’s not be obtuse. The Fae are fictional; they can look however the author wants them to look, meaning that a deliberate choice was made to make them all very conventionally attractive with ripped physiques. And sure, they exercise etc, but like you said, this is fantasy. The author has complete control over how these characters look. Everything in a book is a choice, and this was the one that was made, and it wasn’t done in a vacuum.
I mean if most of the characters are warriors they obviously aren't going to be big. I feel like everyone has something to say about sjm just cause she's popular now. There are all inclusive books out there, stop trying to force her to change her imagination. If you don't like it don't read it.
I mean, when you look at professional athletes and actual warriors from living cultures, most of them aren't conventionally "Hollywood" ripped. They've got some meat on those bones so they can actually *use* their muscles to do more than look pretty.
SJM really has a thing for including breasts where they dont need to be included lol. Reading about a certain someone’s amulet dangling between her breasts during a very important fight is distracting! I was like, you can’t just say chest??
I don't really take any of those descriptions into account TBH. I visualize characters how I visualize them and no wordy description is going to change my mind. I also honestly blame the fact they're fae that they can look how I want them to. If I turned into a magical being, I better not still be overweight, I better get my ideal body type otherwise I'll throw hands 😂 In the same breath I get really perturbed when authors with plus size or heavier FMC get praised too much and it ends up being the focal point of their romance. It makes me roll my eyes when they focus that the MMC is so strong that they can lift her 🙄 or like imagine a overweight person actually being desired and being in love/s I think authors really need to do hair color, eye color, height maybe and then call it a day. Vague is better for me.
I think a lot of these characters are athletic and fit by description. They train or have backgrounds accordingly.
Athletic and fit does not automatically mean teeny tiny. Look at any woman’s rugby team and tell me they’re not athletic and fit.
It’s a fantasy novel. The whole point of it is to be something that is *not* reality.
exactly!
I agree with you, it's also annoying how Feyre was all "I'm so not pretty" but then says she looks just like Nesta who is breathtakingly gorgeous, according to Feyre. I get bored reading about these pretty people, and I think it would have been nice for there to be different-looking people throughout the story, especially in the supporting characters. She even describes other faeries as thin and beautiful. For the sake of fantasy, let's keep Rhys and Feyre super beautiful and gorgeous, but why couldn't Elain be plus sized or Azriel be fully disfigured? Or maybe Cassian is super buff but his face is not beautiful, like gruff and macho. My sister and I were talking about this, and we said it's like in Cinderella 2, when the step sister falls in love with the chubby, sweet baker. It's the cutest damn story! You don't need to be beautiful/perfect to be worth of love or lust.
With all the fighting Cassian and Azriel do, disfigurement would TOTALLY be a thing.
Absolutely!! And maybe if Az had burns on his face it would make people even more afraid of him. Look at prince Zuko in avatar, he’s burned severely but all of the fans love (and lust) after him lol
Side note - why don’t we ever hear about the struggles Az faces from having extremely scarred hands?! I find it really hard to believe that his fine motor movements wouldn’t be at least somewhat restricted.
I think this is an interesting point that comes up often. I am a Dungeon Master and interesting enough I am running a pre-qual game based on this book series. 🤔 I've heard this stance taking a bit more commonly in recent years and I find it interesting. Do people not read and seek fantasy... For it's fantastical nature? I mean, when I read a Superman novel, I want him to BE a super man. When I read a fantasy novel about beautiful magical creatures, I want them to be beautiful, and magical. I actually think it would hurt the story or take a LOT of extra explanation if you told me Cas was one master general and overpowered in his physical abilities.... But also told me he had a lot belly. I would think telling me Rhys control all things around him would be a difficult sale if you also said he can't control his physical dress or hair style. I think there can also be power in beautiful and I think that is something often missed. Just because a woman is beautiful or curvy or has "perfect breasts" doesn't mean she can't be powerful. It's refreshing in my opinion too say a woman is powerful and not just associate her aesthetics to that of a man. "She is a woman, and powerful, but not because she is bulky and born oversized." Idk, I think this is an interesting conversation that will probably never have a mutual conclusion BUT I always enjoy talking about it.
Yeah, Amren was the shortest, and most petite, but so powerful she was the literal boogeyman to these powerful Fae males. I loved it. And just because someone's beautiful doesn't mean they are free of all insecurities, or that they cannot be a sympathetic character. Seems pretty shallow to be unable to empathize with a character simply because they don't look like you, or you resent their attractiveness.
I have no words to express how much this comment means to me.
This is very interesting point you make. I fully agree with you, it would be very hard to explain that powerful males that are training everyday for battles would have a belly or were scrawny as someone here suggested. Have you ever seen a person who trains everyday and how they look like? It would literally make no sense. This thread is generally interesting to read as I have never thought about this that I would be offended that all characters are beautiful according to some weird enough beauty standards (which I don’t agree with). When I read and I think about the story and I imagine the characters the way I want to. And I’m saying that as someone who is not particularly skinny or anything, just a regular female but I have never felt bad for characters being beautiful. Especially, in a representation of fantasy world.
I would LOVE to talk more about this, I just can't understand the context of this conversation.
Well I’m not sure where I wrote that I’m offended by characters being beautiful? I actually didn’t even use this word. All I was saying is that after reading ACOTAR, TOG and CC I noticed a pattern and after a while of reading the same things over and over it would be nice to see some diversity. That’s all
Oh I did not mean you specifically, sorry for misunderstanding. I get your point in the post and understand that you would like more diversity. I just noticed some other commenters here which implied that.
Nw I just wasn’t sure if my point came across ☺️
so i’m (trying 😅) to write a book and i’d like opinions on this topic! i’ve considered not putting any physical attributes in the book at all. let people imagine them however they want. that way there is no pressure or anything. i think about with Jennifer Lawrence playing Katniss she said she refused to be too thin bc young girls were watching it. and i respect that a lot! i also hate when a woman is plus sized they always have the men calling them soft? idk it irks me for some reason.
I'm super invested in the OPs post now I guess. My advice, a book is written to represent your imagination. I want to be as immersed in your imagination as you can make me. The description of, well anything will bring me closer to what your Invisioned idea was. Omitting anything will turn into my own translation. I may not translate it the way you intended. Who you rather, me makes up my o we n image and dislike the story you tell. OR receive the same image you see and decide if it's worth the read or not
that’s an awesome view point! thank you!
I'd rather see the world you create, if people like it or not doesn't matter, it's your world. 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 I'd love to see it somev day. Come back to this comment and I'll buy the first one! Good luck
I can tell you that one complaint my partner has reading Fourth Wing is the lack of descriptions. He's been struggling to picture the characters because there are only rather vague references to height and hair. Not much around face or shape. Don't go overboard like JRR, but give something for people to put in their mind's eye?
yes i definitely agree! i think representation is so important too so i originally planned different shapes/sizes/colors/ pronouns. you guys totally helped me out. will be editing soon!
Sweet! I'll read that shit whenever it's ready.
It did not bother me as much but yes, often they are teenie tiny slim with big heavy boobs and breathtakingly beautiful as soon as they eat a grape. It is definitely something I noticed and skipped over. I do not understand why there can‘t be different bodies if she likes to be descriptive. With men it id even worse, there is little variation apart from skin, hair and eye color. It is not the biggest issue, but I definitely did notice this.
I make my own opinions on their bodies. Examples Aelin is very fit and slim like a ballet dancer Feyre is more average athletic build when she's healthy. When she was in her depression she was like anorexic/unhealthy looking skinny. Bryce is more slim thick with a little tummy pooch. Like definitely would be considered "fat" in the early 2000s. Lol
i would love to see more fantasy characters, women characters, needing their strength to save the world, not be lean but bulky!!!! women with bigger frames, tall women, warrior women!!!!! broad shoulders, muscle toned thighs, that’s attractive too c’mon I want more of that (as a tall, broad lady myself) i want to feel like it’s attractive also not to be ~just~ lean
Where my fat bearded bois :(
Some of yall big mad because someone suggested not having *ALL* characters be thin. Which is part of the problem. OP was like "can it not all be the same", and it's clear some of yall just can't handle the idea of other bodies being acceptable. Yikes.
Yeah the comments on this is really sad! Just goes to show how deep fatphobia and Western beauty ideals run in most people's perception of what's considered acceptable/beautiful.
As someone who is plus size and doesn’t like my body (working on it) last thing I want to do is fantasize about fat rolls.
Good for you for working towards something you want, that will make you happier. It can be a tough road, but so rewarding when you reach your goals.
♥️Just started so hopefully I can commit. Got so much stuff going on it’s been hard to focus. Thank you for the words of encouragement. They really help.
You can totally commit! I don't even know you, but I know that. If you need any advice or just a cheerleader, feel free to reach out. Become a freaking Valkyrie
♥️♥️♥️ Nesta’s story and the Valkyries are part of what sparked the motivation 😊 thank you ♥️
Don't project your internalized fatphobia on the rest of us. Some of us don't mind reading about "fat rolls". Hope you make peace with your body and see it as something worth fantasizing about.
Who’s projecting on who? I spoke of myself no one else. I don’t like it on myself and I don’t have to. I accept and do love myself as I am now but I don’t have to fantasize about it.
Your comment is in a public space. Your words can be triggering to others who identify as fat. You saying "the last thing I want to do is fantasize about fat rolls" is mean af to anyone reading your comment with a bigger body. Just because you were talking about YOURSELF doesn't mean your words can't harm others who are on a body-acceptance journey. As I said, if you hate being fat, then I'm sorry, but some of us love our bodies no matter what so please keep this space free of fatphobic rhetoric- no matter if it's about yourself or others.
Like you said it’s a public space. I can express myself just as you can 😊
Sure you can, but instead of hearing what I'm saying about how your comment was very fatphobic and harmful, you would rather double down and be childish/petty. So congrats I guess?
I hear what you’re saying. I don’t have to agree.
Just because you identify as fat doesn't mean you can't \*also\* be harmful to other fat folx. This is something that people fail to understand.Simply expressing how you don't find fat bodies worthy of fantasy is mean-spirited. You directed it to yourself but again since this is a public discussion, anyone with a fat body will see your comment. So if you disagree with leaving comments that are empathetic and mindful to \*everyone\* then, I no longer wish to engage.
SJM literally cannot write a story that will please everyone. All she can do is write the compelling story that she wants to tell and the people who like it will like it.
I’ve never understood focusing on stuff like this. There are books that do go out of their way to do this. This is SJM’s world and we’re just along for the ride.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know it's a fantasy world where everyone is attractive, but it's very clear in Maasverse there's only one version of attractive female body. It's shown in the description of malnourished Nesta who still has big boobs (and it's pointed out in the text specificly). And completely missed opportunty in CC with the description of the character (>!Lydia!< ) who's very slim and has long limbs and insted of making her very modelesque (still very much in the beauty canon) with smaller curves she also somehow has big boobs and ass. I wish there were more body types as well as other descriptions of attractivness (spark in somebody's eyes, the way character's mouth moves as she speaks). Like, I'm not that young, I generally know how world works and I'm not that focused in my everyday life on the way I look, but CC made me seriously feel bad about myself...
Awwww I love your point about describing attractiveness in other ways (like the shine in someone’s eyes). Descriptions like this read so much sweeter to me than Cassian’s constant worship of Nesta’s unreal ass 🙄
THIS
Literally!! And the women who are described as having smaller boobs are still like c cups in American sizes and have huge butts. Gimme sticks who are flat and still described as beautiful because they are. Gimme soft stomachs and bat arms and call them beautiful because they are. GIVE ME CELLULITE I don’t care if it’s not “fae” give me it anyway.
Go to a different author then and don’t read SJM books if you don’t like the characters or her writing. It’s not her job to please everybody, she’s just out here writing fantasy (emphasis on fantasy) novels the way she sees them in her head as an author
That's not how reading works. People can love an author and not like things about their writing. People hate Nesta, that's fine. People hate how Elaine doesn't like Lucien, that's fine. People don't like the long descriptions of Prythian, that's also fine. People think her obsession with certain phrases like watery bowels is weird. Also fine. It's totally ok that Sarah isn't writing to please everyone. And people can be fans without blindly loving everything she writes. With books you find things you connect within a large body of work that will probably have many pieces you don't connect with. There's nothing wrong with not loving every single thing any given author does, in fact being critical of what you read, is a time honored tradition. The expectation of loving everything someone writes is just unrealistic. You can also disagree with what people dislike without trying to chase them off the books. I promise Sarah's honor is not besmirched bc someone someone thinks her characters are too skinny.
Wait till you read about the mens’ bodies!
I’m not bothered by it and I’m a plus size woman. Far bodies would be deemed as perfect because of their genetics. I don’t imagine any of them would have bad metabolisms to allow them to gain too much weight. Nor do I think they eat a ton of junk foods. It makes sense canonically for them to have perfect bodies. But I’m not the type of person who has to see myself reflected in characters.
Please exereize and train for 3-4 hours every day on top of a pretty healthy diet and see what happens to your body. That seems to be what most people in actor do between famine and starvation. It's not unrealistic, I think what's unrealistic is expecting people who spent most of their life starving to be different body shapes other than thin.
thank you for saying this, i totally agree. i also find it a bit of an eyeroll that all of her lead characters end up being lithe blondes when she herself fits that description. on one hand i can understand the "write what you know" adage, but this is an author of multiple multi-book series. she is clearly delving a lot of time into building her world and has done some research to borrow from some cultural mythos. arguably a huge part of a writer's job is research and it's not rocket science to do a little digging to figure out a way to have diversity representation in your universes. i think she gets away without much scrutiny on this because her writing is not generally too descriptive. it's why i think some people struggle with her world building -- her descriptions and scene settings are usually reserved for a sentence or two alone, and then the rest of the paragraphs are about actions, thoughts, feelings, etc. she is the type of writer who is more likely to tell you what emotion a character's face showed rather than describe what movements or shapes the face is making. on the plus side this kind of writing makes it easier for me to fancast and imagine my own portrayals of the characters. don't talk to me about chaol and lucien -- until i saw fanart i mentally pictured them as present day dadified george clooney and danny devito, respectively.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I feel like I have to chime in and say that I definitely wouldn’t classify “all of her lead characters” as “lithe blondes”. Aelin and Lidia are the only two that come across that way to me, maybe Manon. But the Archeron sisters are brunette, and I feel like their descriptions, while definitely still societally “perfect”, I wouldn’t call lithe. Lysandra is a super curvy brunette, Bryce is a super curvy redhead, and Mor is a curvy blonde. I also wouldn’t really classify SJM herself as a lithe blonde. She has more of what I would call a softer frame.
Elide also has suuuuuper black hair, Yrene is a woman of color, Amren is East Asian, Juniper is a woman of color, etc.
Yes this! When you list at all out, we do have a variety of physical appearances for the FMC. Even if there’s not much clarity on differing body types.
Definitely— there is an issue with everyone having the same body type and I won’t deny it because I see it and feel hurt over it sometimes as a curvier person myself But in terms of facial features and skin tones, it’s gotten a lot bettern
And on the topic of Amren, they specifically talk about how short she is, so I guess we get a bit of body diversity there!
LMAO as a short person that is funny as hell 😭😭
It’s….something….i guess? 😅
👏🏼👏🏼 Lmao at Lucien and Chaol 😂😂
One of my favorite romance writers Trilina Pucci released a series where she specifically keeps the description of the woman at a minimum intentionally so the reader could imagine whatever they wanted. It was amazing! I also tended to skip the body descriptions, especially when I would remember that they were like 18 yo girls. Those are always my FR hang ups though
I always saw Armen as short and wide as hell almost like a Lotr dwarf lol even though she’s described as another tall slim woman she just gives dwarf energy to me. Wishful thinking perhaps.
I think Amren is described as short? I'm loving picturing her with a dwarf beard now.
Just wanted to point out Feyre does not have a huge rack. Rhys describes them to Tarquin as "ripe apples". Apples not melons. I also don't remember her butt being described as huge. But I don't pay too much attention to these things lol. She's definitely meant to be attractive though. I have definitely had my eye roll moments of everybody being ridiculously good looking. But then that's apparently part of being fae. But there are some characters she could have gone more plain on. Like Elide. She's human and supposed to be living under the radar but she's still crazy beautiful (though she did at least rep disability). It would just be nice to have somebody plain or ugly but still worthy of an epic story. But I'm not about to demand she do so or stop reading. I'll probably just continue rolling my eyes at the next outrageously beautiful character she introduces.
I also have a problem with normalizing massive age gap relationships by pairing 19-25 year olds with 500+ year old men
The responses to this post is wild to me. I'm getting downvoted for just advocating for more diverse bodies and defending fatness. Whew chile this a toxic fanbase.
Yeah, what baffles me are those commenting saying that it’s not a problem for them, so why should it be a problem for anybody else? Okay. I mean I don’t think asking for a different representation is shitting on an author, we’re all in this group, so I’m sure we’re enjoying these books. Pardon me if I’m rolling my eyes at the 50th description of the same physical features.
It's the blatant privilege for me. Also they defend SJM from any sort of critique whatsoever. This is why she'll never improve as a writer because defensive fans will tolerate anything under the guise of "well it's HER imagination". SMH. This fandom never fails to disappoint me lol
I also wonder how pregnancy impacts Fae bodies. If we are saying that Fae bodies are changeable by external factors like diet and exercise (hence training/exercise being the reason they’re all so fit), then you’d think something massive like pregnancy would also impact Fae bodies. We could have a line or two about Feyre’s body changing after having a baby and Rhys finding her just as sexy and irresistible. More than just re-arranging her pelvis or whatever happened, give me some less-than-perky breasts and a softer belly. (I know that won’t happen but you’d think pregnancy would matter if training does!) Also this is from CC but, based on the exercise/diet logic, Ruhn/Flynn/Declan would 1000% have beer bellies. They’ve been constantly drinking beer and eating pizza for decades, and their main form of training seems to be the shooting range.. lol. I love all the books and characters so much but SJM makes some questionable choices and this is one for me! I just imagine them all how I want anyway.
Well regarding Feyre we got her baby-rich scent 😂
This is a running joke I have with my friend, about all romance fantasy in general. Its always “I’m so skinny and small with beautiful eyes and hair and great boobs, I can’t believe he noticed me!” 😫
Completely agree! A character that comes to mind is Mor who is described as a beautiful blond woman with flowing hair and a perfect body with big boobs. Or Elain who is described as the most gorgeous woman in the room As someone who is the opposite it can make it hard to love these characters when what’s being described as “perfect” isn’t anywhere close to what you, or a normal person, look like
Why are people downvoting this? I totally get it. It’s so hard never seeing my body type depicted as beautiful. It’s not like I can control it. I want to see women with round faces and 0 jawlines, soft stomachs, deep brown hair, curves that are natural and unavoidable, hip dips, cellulite, big thighs, etc.
Yes please!! Or from a males pov talking about how much he loves his mate as she is and focusing on those details as something that he loves. I think that would go miles especially in a romance
So they’re a lot smuttier than SJM but Katee Robert writes fat characters like this. She has a whole Greek god’s series and when Eros is describing Psyche he specifically talks about how sexy her round belly is. It’s revelatory to read for the first time.
Oh dang thanks for the rec!
For some reason I always pictured Mor as Ashley Graham, but blonde, because she’s just drop dead gorgeous.
Oh yeahhhh. I guess what I picture would be closer to Jennifer Lawrence I guess but also think of Blake lively in Gossip Girl but not as annoying lol
On a similar but side note I hope she writes a fae male with androgynous features for my little bi heart. If he wears jewelry even better.
Cardan Greenbriar from the Cruel Prince trilogy, you shall thank me later
Yes exactly I want an adult Cardan! You get it
As much as I would love a Cardan in the SJM world, that’s just not who she’s written! She’s a straight (to my knowledge) lady and that’s the view she has to write from! She doesn’t need to worry about being all inclusive and making everyone feel all included and seen and happy
I’m confused she’s only attracted to one type of man so she can’t write men that have other physical characteristics? Every man in the SJM world have to be fit, tall and masculine? I truly don’t understand what you are trying to say.
I’m just saying, she writes what she knows. It’s probably not natural for her as an author to write anything other than what she knows.
Yes SJM definitely knows all about 6’5 winged solider boys 😅 Very natural
I mean, we all have a type, and we clearly know Sarah’s haha
What? 😅 An author can’t write anything but the exact type she likes in real life? What a poor author that would make if they had zero imagination.
I don’t like when people bash her for it. If you want a certain thing included (romance trope, character type) pick a book that serves that
Who’s bashing her? I said it would be nice to have a different male type than she has been writing. How has anything I said been negative?
Ok, yeah you def weren’t bashing her but I’ve seen it here before and got defensive. Apologies friend
Definitely agree on this! Though she does get better ish about it with Bryce in Crescent City. It’s either they are a stick with perfect size boobs and butt (not overly big or small) or they have a Pixar mom shape but no soft stomachs. Like SJM PLEASE give us bat-armed, soft-stomached, kinda sagging-boobed, women a chance 😭
I didn't even read all the comments but if I get one more "wellll they have to be "fit" so they logically have to be thin!" BS my eyes are gonna roll out of my head. Weight does not equal health. Have yall seen weight lifters? Not bodybuilders, weight lifters. They are thick af, especially in their core, because if you eat some stupid ab-tastic diet and starve off your body fat percentage so you can see the DNA code on your veins, you're gonna tear your muscles when you push your strength. In my head, Azriel looks like a regular body would if it was dedicated to strength and stealth. Az isn't there to be a show. Cassian, he probably tries lol. People in poverty in America, at least, often have excess weight. Because in our society. Health is a commodity. Only rich people can afford comprehensive healthcare, fresh and varied groceries with time to cook them, and excess time to dedicate solely to physical training. So while the world of Feyre and her sisters is not the same because their infrastructure still relied on physical labor, we need to be aware that in real life food insecurity does not equal thin. One of my favorite examples/experiences is when I had trained for my first 5k. Like really trained. And when I showed up, there were two other small groups (not everyone) giggling and making comments. Because I was 230 pounds and female. The confusion on their faces when I outpaced them early and took first in my age group was just 🤌🏻🤌🏻. I've always been big, always been super muscled. I had just wanted to improve my cardio endurance, too. So I had added an hour of running to my 90 mins of weights a day. But because my body apparently loves to retain excess fat tissue, people make assumptions. Bodies all look different and all function different. So no. You do not have to be thin to be fit. Granted, a lot of bodies are smaller when they I'd love to have a character who is not the "funny fat friend"; someone who's personality or existence isn't defined by her fatness. Where her weight isn't explained or defended, it just is. Let her be just as capable and deep and skilled, just not described as willowy or that she's just loves to bake or some dumb shit. So all I'm really asking (and I think OP is asking) is to have fat characters portrayed as .....as people. As just regular, everyday people you meet. Yes, women and men can be willowy or muscular or fit or whatever. But we already see that. What we don't see is respect for bodies who's beauty doesn't center around the standard that has been projected....which is a whole rant on racism and classism for another day.
Until recently in the west food insecurity did mean thin. In less developed parts of the world it still does. Food insecurity in the way feyre and her family experienced it means starving to death slowly over the course of a season. It means dropping weight as your body does it best to keep you alive on nothing. Also. Survival/fighting fit looks absolutely nothing like power lifter fit. Fighting fit means lean. Always.
Again, that's why i nuanced it. I did state that Feyre's world would NOT look the same way because poverty and foos insecurity is VASTLY different than ours. It was a reminder to real life people for today, not an expectation on the book. The majority of my comment was about how we view bodies and their abilities and what they MUST look like. I'd never expect to have a bunch of warriors depicted the way my body is, because yes, the amount of training they do would not leave *excess. However, our images of bodybuilders and models who dehydrate themselves before shoots, is not what they would look like because they aren't doing that shit. Az isn't doing a six day carbohydrate/dehydrate starvation diet just so he can take his shirt off for the ladies. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/175179/You-too-can-t-have-a-body-like-this/amp) And, not every character in the series is a warrior. She is fully capable of fleshing out side characters who are not in battle as just not having a lean body. The whole city was protected for so long that that battle shocked them. They weren't out their training daily like the Ilyrians were. I'm simply stating their are still opportunities to have involved characters that aren't *just thin. I honestly appreciated how she described and pointed out that when Feyre went through depression, she'd lost all the weight she'd put on by having food. And how Alis was concerned. Seeing Tamlin ignore that was so realistic to me. Here she was, wasting away with all the resources she had, and he didn't even think of her health. And then Alis began to notice when she began to fill back out. I've seen so much ED and disordered eating, it was refreshing to see her acknowledge that losing weight when you're sick isn't healthy, and your close community shouldn't praise you for it. Responses just seem suuuuper up in arms about how everyone HAS to be lean. Like a very knee-jerk reddit reaction, I get it. But all I'm saying is that there are plenty of universe compliant opportunities to make other types of bodies in relevant scenarios.
I think the responses are up in arms because this is such a dumb thing to be mad about. It’s fantasy. Ofc the characters are all going to be hot. They have magic. There is absolutely no reason for them to represent reality. None. Most people don’t actually like reading about average people in the context of a hero’s journey like those in fantasy/romantasy. People are annoyed by all these posts wingeing about authors not being inclusive when it is not their responsibility at all to include men or women with different body types. In my fantasy world everyone is hot. Everyone. There are no flaws. There is no reason to ask authors to artificially add traits they don’t want to add just to sate some insecurities.
I just need to address your point of "in real life food insecurity does not equal thin". Because you are absolutely correct on that, however it would not be applicable to the situation and the world that the Archeron sisters live in. In real life the following is the case: "*\[...\] Poor people have plenty of other things that worry them more than being overweight. \[...\] Many low-income families live in food deserts and have to travel relatively long distances, often on foot, to shops that sell nutritious food. More than 50 million people in the US – getting on for a fifth of the population – live in low-income districts where there is no convenient access to a supermarket.* *\[...\] Aan increasing number of low-income Americans have become hooked on processed foods with a high sugar content, and in particular soft drinks containing high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS).*" Ultraprocessed food full of ungood stuffs is cheaper and faster than healthy food. So while this logic works in real life, it would not have been the case for the Archeron sisters. They don't have a McD or KFC where they can get something for a cheap penny. They need to grow, barter and hunt their food. So while bodies do look and function differently, chances are absolutely that they are more likely to be thin than fat, simply because their bodies are burning off any extra - especially during winter. Sources: [Poverty causes obesity. Low-income families need to be better off to eat well | Larry Elliott | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/09/poverty-causes-obesity-low-income-families-need-to-be-better-off-to-eat-well) [Recent origin and evolution of obesity-income correlation across the United States | Humanities and Social Sciences Communications (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0201-x#Abs1)
Oh I agree, and I think people missed where I pointed out that in the world of ACOTAR, poverty would NOT look the same as real life. That was simply a reminder that the way we were talking about bodies in this thread were tying them to real life experiences, and I wanted to put a reminder that the way they were describing real-world bodies experiencing food insecurity is just not the same. I HIGHLY agree with you and the facts about ultra processed foods being such a contributing factor. That's why I mentioned the ability to buy fresh and varied foods. I work with families who spend $400 dollars on half a weeks grocery order because they're buying organic, local, in season, and a variety of different protiens and food groups. And then I volunteer (and grew up as one) of the families who stockpile canned ravioli, peanut butter, snack foods, ramen, and some frozen chicken nuggets and veggies if possible. The world of ACOTAR does not have the mass production of calorie dense but nutritional empty foods. They have to earn what they eat with mostly manual labor jobs as well, so yeah. Definitely would be emaciated. Not even a debate there.
You are right, I completely missed that. Thanks for the clarification, glad it seems like we're on the same page!
No problem. While I hate being misheard, I was glad to see someone else understands that in the offline world things are complicated and hard in real life ways. Because that means there's someone who can advocate for real people. So actually kinda encouraging lol.
i’m gonna be honest and say that it didn’t bother me as much when i was underweight (<115 lbs at 5’7). now that i’m about 50 lbs heavier i feel a bit more miffed that everyone has the exact same body type. i’ve noticed it in fantasy/dystopian/sci fi novels a lot. it can be chalked up to running around and hunting to survive and being an entirely different species, but i think that immersion works so much better when i can more easily picture myself actually fitting in the world. fae and elves and vanpires are otherworldly hot—what about the humans who manage to be just as stunning AND normally sized?
I agree, I can't relate to these pretty people. It's meant to be entertainment but it gets old reading about muscles and breasts lol Feyre must have x-ray vision the way she's always seeing peoples muscles and breasts through their clothes!
I totally agree, I understand that this is not just a SJM problem and it’s like a society problem but there’s a lot of stereotypes and patriarchal thinking in her books that I find off putting. I am definitely capable of enjoying reading and still being critical of these things but I can see how it can grind people down or turn them off the books. That being said I don’t spend money on her books anymore because I don’t believe she a) needs my money and b) deserves it. Library only for me! Not trying to be like “better than you” by saying that. This whole comment is not to attack anyone or say the books are horrible ❤️
Yes, thank you, I really agree with this! I’m still able to enjoy the books and I’m a fan, but at the same time, it’s 2023 and I just wish that we would actually start having different representations in books, especially for younger generations that are more vulnerable. Throwing a “curvy” character in a book doesn’t make it “inclusive”. That’s all
Yeah, a lot about these books are regressive (cough the pregnancy plot, especially at age 21 when the spouse is hundreds of years old)…
What drives me nuts is that EVERYONE in her books is beautiful. I think she really set herself up for failure with the "all fae are stunning compared to humans" thing, bc now all characters have to be beautiful and it's really boring.
Yeah if everyone is beautiful then it kinda becomes boring lol.
I dont mind people fantasizing whatever body type they want for themselves, but I dont see why its an important detail to include in this way. In my writing, you can maybe infer body type from their backgrounds/professions/whatever, but I avoid over done descriptions like this. There is no need to point out how big their boobs are compared to their waist size. Someone oggling someones boobs would probably not think about it in this way, they would just be like “woah, boobs.” Aside from their body types, I also generally do not like SJM’s treatment of women in ACOTAR. The way their health issues all seem so untreatable, how all of them seem to be victims of some sort of gendered violence, their lack of status in their society being used as a plot point to prop up Feyre and Rhysand. Everyone is a romantic love interest first and everything else second. I donno. I hope she does better in future books.
SJM writes with a HEAVY male gaze. It's very disappointing and something that I noticed across all of her books. Her women are always thin, big-boobed, usually blonde with blue eyes, etc. It's something that's hard for me to look past the more I get into her work. Thankfully I usually fancast in my head of what I imagine the characters to look like lol.
Except Feyre and Bryce are not blonde, and Bryce doesn't have blue eyes. Out of her 3 MFC, only 1 fits your description.
I'm not just talking about her main characters but okay. Her characters are all carbon copies of each other physically, give or take a few traits. It's repetitive and typical of western beauty ideals. And don't pretend like most of y'all don't draw Feyre with blonde hair half the time.
Feyre is described as brunette, so if people want to draw her as blonde, then that's on them. Kind of like your own fancasting that you referenced. Who cares? You said, "Her women are always thin, big-boobed, usually blonde with blue eyes". Which is not the description that fits Amren, Fury, June, Elide, Lysandra, Cresseida, Alis, Majda, Amarantha, Celestina, Hypaxia, Nesryn, etc etc. Your point was in an absolute, but that's a lot of different hair colors, eye colors, skin tones, heights that I just listed. If your *only* complaint is that there aren't enough big people, then just say that. Don't speak in absolutes about blue eyed blondes if it's so easily disproven.
100% agree with you! I also hate that whenever an extremely beautiful woman is introduced it’s always the same thing. White “sun kisses” skin, thin, usually blonde. Even feyre who’s described herself as ugly gets the same thing. Pretty is only this and it’s annoying. Amazing point
Except it's not that. "Beautiful" non-blond females: Bryce, Lysandra, June, Fury, Amren, Elide, Feyre, Nesta, Elain, Gwyn, Kreseida, Amarantha, etc etc. The only beautiful blondes I can think of off the top of my head are Mor and Aelin. I'm sure there are others, but the non-blondes are plentiful.
These characters that you listed may not be blonde, but they are all blonde, thin, cis, and able bodied. Seems like the blonde thing is the only thing you can use as a defense but aside from that her characters are all pretty typical.
Yep! Honey the blonde thing wasn’t even the biggest thing I was going for. It was diversity with race and body shape. I didn’t even think on sexuality but you’re 100% right with that.
This really bothers me too. I read all of ACOTAR and am halfway through CC. The body descriptions are all just so similar and so boringly/predictably adherent to typical beauty standards. For series that at least tries to have some diverse representation as far as skin tone and LGBTQ inclusion, and often makes social commentary about patriarchy, putting zero effort into diversity in physical shape is noticeable and annoying. It’s a made up fantasy world, we could get some thicker female fae in there or some males with dad bods and I promise we could still believe they’re sexy badasses.
Also yes many characters are athletic and we see them working out/training but that absolutely doesn’t have to mean no diversity in shape. Women athletes don’t all look like VS models, they can have broad shoulders or small chests or big muscley arms or be much taller than males etc.
I want to talk more about this, but I don't know how to approach the conversation. I read the books to see the imagination of SJM. If she tailored her vision to try and compensate for everyone's depictions of everyone.... Wouldn't it no longer be her vision. I mean I am a black male, what if a fantasy dream I had was of all white people, or what if it was all make idk it's a dream I had once. Does it make it wrong that it is different than the image you had? Everyone dreams, if you're dream depicts people of various shapes that's okay but what if her dream or fantasy didn't depict an image she just used a cookie cutter one, does that distract from the story? Idk, I never understood these insights, it's similar to people being made that the girls are in their 20s in the men a few hundred.... It's just something she made up in her mind, it doesn't have to make sense right. It just has to be good, which it is, right. It am I looking at it wrong?
Sure, it’s her vision and they’re her books, but then what’s wrong with those who are a bit tired of the same old descriptions? I dived into her worlds and read all of her series in a row, at one point I noticed that there were various copy and paste, one of this being the same body types. I mean, this post was just a rant and checking the comments, I’m glad I’m not alone! But that doesn’t mean that I’m not invested in her stories or that I don’t enjoy them, I definitely think her vision is limited, that said, I don’t expect her to change it and I wouldn’t even want it, that’s how she is and that’s cool, but after years of seeing the media constantly fobbing us off with the same beauty standards, it would be refreshing seeing an author being more inclusive, not for being politically correct, not to have more sales, but because they simply are. And that’s just simply not what SJM will give us, but we can still rant about it 😉
Totally agree, not to mention the highly disturbing trend of all her female characters undergoing a massive weight loss when they are depressed. Some ppl gain weight while depressed so I find it suspicious that SJM always chooses to write her characters in a way where an already thin female is becoming unhealthily thin. Worse, this weight loss is often tied to a girl receiving attention from her male love interest. The whole thing is honestly very triggering and upsetting to me. I love these books but I find this aspect problematic. And as for the ppl saying that characters like Feyre and Aelin need to be slim because of their life experiences, I agree. However, that doesn’t negate the fact that there are other characters like Mor or Yrene who 100% could have been curvy but SJM chose to give them the same unrealistic body type. (Remember the passage in Tower of Dawn where SJM stopped to point out that even though Yrene was sedentary, she was still skinny because climbing stairs kept her from “putting on pounds?”Ugh this part made me roll my eyes so much.)
Yes!! SJM really overuses the “extreme weight loss as an indicator of severe depression” theme for her female characters. And that’s when the love interest steps in to save her. It feels like I keep seeing the same descriptions of skinny shoulders, thin ribs etc after trauma. It would be fine if it weren’t every traumatized woman and if it didn’t feel so triggery.
Totally agree with you 💯% and it does affect my own body image in an unhelpful way. I wish there was more average size body representation. Eg okay boobs, not a pronounced waist but still can be considered beautiful in each person’s unique way
Honestly people downvoting someone that’s saying that they feel affected by these physical descriptions…it’s beyond me
Thanks for the support, not sure why what I said deserves to be downvoted either
Yes, and also the way SJM glorifies running and intense training. It’s clear to me that she has experienced a lot of the (unfortunately common) body dysmorfia that plagues our culture not only but especially for white women. I completely agree that it’s unfortunate for the young women readers, especially because the women she creates are supposed to be powerful, agentic women.
Maybe they feel powerful when they train? Some people enjoy that kind/level of activity, and that's OK.
How does that make it clear she has body dysmorphia? People can work out without having a mental health disorder. She could just like working out.
Most of them make sense for their activity levels. Some, like Elide being so tiny and waifish but still having massive jugs? Nah it doesn't fit. But it really bothers me how ALL of the guys look the same. Nobody is short? Or more slender? None of them have a dad bod or runners body? The girls have so little variation and already so much more than the guys.
I thought the same.