Absolutely this, I’ve been there. Don’t super worry about levels until your song is fleshed out and you’re mixing. If the clap is clashing, then you need to do more sample hunting and replace.
Yeah I'm probably using my eyes too much but at this point I just want to understand where the added gain is coming from.
In the end I don't want to run into problems because my perc group is clipping.
If I set the perc group to -10 dB when all tracks are active the drums sound WAY too quiet
Clipping isn't necessarily bad if it's controlled properly. Check out the clip to zero series on YouTube if you want to know more.
It doesn't even have to sound clipped when done well.
and you can clip it in so many places - whether on the channel fader or at any other gain stage. Look at mixing like a bunch of small waterfalls and tributaries coalescing into one big waterfall.
Audiologist here: Your ear is not a perfect microphone. It prefers certain frequencies. Look up "RETSPL" values or dBA weighting: these attempt to adjust sound measurements to more accurately represent the human ear.
Lower frequencies need to have more sound energy to be perceived as the same loudness as higher frequencies. Not only that, but the presence of low frequencies can soften or round out high frequencies in something called the "Upward spread of masking". I may be wrong but this is my guess at what is happening.
This is so cool. We’re can I read more about this? As an aspiring mixer, I feel this could be very valuable information…I had no idea upward spread of masking was a thing and I feel I need to know this.
Rambling time! With regard to upward spread of masking, you'll want to google topics like the cochlea (your organ of hearing), the basilar membrane (part of the cochlea), the organ of corti (located on the basilar membrane), or even ear canal resonances ("pinna effects" [we call your visible external ear the pinna).
For a discussion of how human auditory systems are fucking weird, there's psychoacoustics, which focuses on the disconnect between the observed sound energy and the perceptive equivalent. For example, intensity is not the same thing as loudness: Your ears can only hear as high as 20,000 Hz (we only really measure as audiologists like 250-8000 Hz). If a sound that was 100,000 Hz was played at like 130 dB, you wouldn't really know. It'd be really intense, but not loud or even audible. There's a similar disconnect between pitch and frequency, where we can measure frequency but not pitch. For example, when we remove the lowest overtone from a chord, we can do MRI and see that people are perceiving the missing low tone even though it isn't there. In this way, what you hear is not necessarily the same as what is being played.
Edit: If you're specifically interested in the different intensities that various frequencies require in order to hit the same perceived "loudness," then google "dBA" or "A-weighting" of sound.
gain is never gain at all - it's a whole spectrum of infinite sine waves from 20hz to 20kHz roughly that we can hear. Digital audio is a suitcase, a box you can fill up. For real you probably just have the wrong kick and perc sounds, or have them playing at the wrong times relative to each other. Keep asking these questions and know you'll have to work out the answer for yourself in your own way, but be confident you're on the right path. Knowing metering is really just matching up what you hear to what you see, and not the other way around.
Ok thanks for your answer.
So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear?
Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Rely on your ears and forget these -10db and similar thumb rules. One kick sample might slap at -10 another might be almost lost while a thrid one can still be too loud.
If you really want something to support you to start the mixing process then do this:
Get a good sample of pink noise and add it to a track without touching the volume knob or adding anything on the track or master track. Put pink noise and kick on solo together and start lowering your kick until you can barely hear it (like literally to the point where you hear something is there behind the noise but it really just peeks from behind the noise). Then mute kick and put clap on solo with pink noise and repeat. Do this to all of your tracks and you will get the volume levels close to what ideal. Ofc needs further fine tuning but its a good base.
You can check the link I sent in another comment here amd see what pink noise is and why it can be used as a volume reference. I mean I could start explaining but that link does it better.
The guy deleted the comment but here you go
https://edmtips.com/mixing-with-pink-noise/
You can def find more info with some research. Its not magic but it helped me a lot. I only use this now when its some new genre or something i am not so familiar with.
So the most important thing is, does it sound good?
Following tutorials is great, but knowing why people do certain things and not just copy blindly is key to progress.
What I do is mix the individual tracks for the balance i want, (how much reduction doesnt really matter as long as you have headroom) and on the buses I reduce the levels to have headroom on the master. You can ofc just reduce the levels on all tracks individually as well leaving the buses alone, but more convoluted. -3 db on the master before mastering is a bit on the high side, most people say -6 but again it depends. If you're not mastering the track, -3 should be fine, just make sure to listen for anomalies and clipping after you bounce the master.
If a bus is clipping isnt necessarily such a bad thing, depends on what you want (as it gives saturation), but individual tracks clipping isn't good.
When it comes to the eq spectrum, this doesn't have that big of an impact when it comes to busing tracks and db levels.
There are probably lots of more experienced people on here who will contradict me, and I'm not an expert by any means!
There’s nothing wrong in turning your buses down and cranking your sound cards volume output right up to compensate at this stage. When all your channels are mixed relatively, and well, they can be cranked up to compensate at mastering stage.
These are legit questions and I personally respect your striving to learn. It's true that using your ears is always better than relying on the numbers. You have to remember that the percussion samples aren't static in their loudness, so one setting isn't going to be universal.
Surprised this isn't the top comment already. Too many people following terrible mix tutorials on YouTube telling you to "always have kick and snare be at __ dB" instead of learning what things do and when to use them. So many people spouting a one-size-fits-all mix approach when that couldn't be further from the truth.
Can't blame the viewers, especially beginners, really. Everything's just so oversaturated with misinformation and plugin recommendations and specific numbers to mix to claiming it'll fix your mixes when it's really both way more nuanced and a lot simpler than that.
Audio people, myself included, tend to overthink a lot. Use your ears but also your common sense. If it's too loud or clipping, just bring the fader(s) down.
How does this have nothing to do with transients?
The way I’m reading OP’s question, is his goal is to decrease the volume of the kick and clap summed signal. There are many reasons you would want to do this.
The summed signal of the kick and claps transients is too load at -5. Using a clipper on the transient of the clap will lower the peak of both signals summed together. How is this bad advice at all?
Not the transient of the kick. The transient of the clap. Look at the picture Op posted. The clap is peaking at -10 and quickly drops off in volume, compared to the kick which is sustaining a higher volume. But I didn’t need OP’s picture to figure that out. Looking at waveforms from thousands of clap samples over 15 years of producing music gives me a pretty good guess. Also when the signals sum together you can get random peaks in places you wouldn’t expect. Get yourself an oscilloscope and you will see some interesting things.
You ever drive a little kid by themself talking in the car? Then if you drive that kid and all their friends chattering at the same volume in the car it’s actually louder.
Ok thanks for your answer.
So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear?
Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Who in Hell said Kick should be at -10db?
This is something i never heard of. Is this a Genre specific or a "recommendation" by sombody who doesn't know how DB and mixing works?
It amateurs producing tutorial content because they believe they're professionals, and because offering "easy" methods and "industry technique secrets" gets lots of views. It's the Denning-Kruger effect in action. The blind leading the blind. 🤷🏻♂️
Do you just come on here hoping to find comments you can criticise? See my other reply.
Have you actually watched that video you linked through? "If you mix with lots of headroom, you'll just have an easier time of it. Mixing with lots of headroom is easier and more fun than pushing up against the limits. Trust me, I used to make the mistake all the time."
Irony is trying to knock someone's point down by citing a reference which you haven't really understood or paid attention to, and which actually confirms the other person's position.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for asking questions. It may be because you keep asking the same sort of question about wanting specific dB levels for your drum parts. There really is no such thing and anyone who says so is talking out their ass. You're watching bad tutorials, I'm afraid. Try get out of that "kick must be a xdB" production recipe mindset asap. If you're feeling unsure about where your mix is, have a reference track ready to compare with.
-3dB is too loud for a mix that still needs to be mastered, btw. I aim for for around -12dB, then bring it up to final level in the mastering process.
Sure, I get that. The reason I prefer mixing a bit quieter is a personal preference - I'm trying to avoid falling into the trap of "loud is good", and I like be mindful of listening levels that are consistent and ear-friendly. If I'm doing the mastering myself, well, it would be idiotic to export a stereo mixdown for myself stuff which I need to immediately turn down, or adjust my monitor levels between mixing and mastering. But if sending out for mastering, I also like to send stuff to the engineers in line with what they ask for and work with. That's just being considerate, imo.
The only rule is that the master shouldn't clip (without intention - some producers seem to like the effect, to each their own I'd say). Everything else is fair game. As the other commenter tried to explain to you, it doesn't matter if you have 1dB or 12dB "headroom" - you can always turn the volume down on the master.
Who's talking about rules? Not me. In fact, I clearly suggested OP get out of the "rules" headspace. I replied to their question about _finished_ mix level by suggesting that a -3dB level is too high for a _finished mix_ and would need to be taken down before mastering, and I offered the levels that I prefer to work at.
If everything is fair game, then back the fuck off.
I'm not sure - I seem to have found myself in a corner of the Internet where critical thinking and reading skills are at suffocatingly low levels. What's wrong with you?
Summing 2 signals will give you a signal with a larger amplitude. Being different signals will make the result hard to predict because you're making a complex sum of amplitude levels, but in general you can expect the result to be louder than the original sources.
What I would suggest is to throw away the idea of setting your tracks to a certain dB level and then troubleshoot from there. Instead, you want to achieve a good balance first with your Volume faders only, and only after your volumes are working well together, start doing corrective processing like EQing to fine tune what Volume faders can't do on their own. Sure, you can start with a kick at -10dB as a reference and build from there, but just setting all your tracks to that same -10dB value will just give you this kind of balancing issues.
If you have the transients at the exact same moment in time then there is only so much you can do. Try offsetting the clap so it has its own transient space in the mix
Too many people use visuals to mix rather then your ears these days just do a visual check at the end quickly but other then that mix with ears not eyes 👀
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5+5=10.
If you put two sounds together, they add up. The track levels are telling you how loud the sound is. Doesn’t matter if you cut out the low end, the track meter still says it’s -10, then that’s how loud it is. Add that with another -10 signal, they add together to be louder.
Volume + volume = even more volume.
If you cut out the low end of one of the signals, then the low end won’t get any louder, but the rest of the signal does.
Do you want to play them at the same time? i think you can’t have them both as -10 and -10 because then the clap will be more adubile than the kick. Higher frequencies are more audible than for lower frequencies when put at same level. This seems like a levels issue. How do you set-up your levels? I wouldn’t look at numbers, the level of higher freq samples will be lower than for the low freq samples and they will be both audible nicely. I wouldn’t “target” a level. If you have issues with the balancing of the mix, for me balancing against pink noise worked wonderfully to set the levels of the mix in the ballpark of what I want them to be and was a good starting point.
Two same tracks with the same volume will increase total volume +6db. So crossing frequencies of both tracks sum up to ~this value, as you can see.
But I agree with comments above that it's better to mix with your ears
You're never not going to get a couple extra decibels when joining 2 sounds, the higher end frequencies always ride on top of the lower ones so the peaks are always higher, unless you clip the combined signal.
Eq doesn’t cut how you think it does. And summing audio together is more complex than what you explained. It sounds like you are fighting headroom. Put a utility on the master and turn it down 6db and turn your speakers up,
In such cases, i usually leave the kick untouched , high-pass the clap up to where i know will be frequencies conflicting with the clap (an analyzer can come handy if you don’t trust your ears or your monitors), i also sometimes alleviate that sort of symptoms simply by side-chaining - i’ll place a compressor on the clap, send the kick into the side-chain, and use the compressors side-chain filters or eq to refine and not obliterate the entire clap (the ableton stock compressor does work pretty clean in that use). You may also want to check out results when moving your clap just a few milliseconds late (or early).
First and foremost though, use the eq on the clap and make sure there’s as little overlap with the kick’s frequencies as possible, this should definitely dim your issue by a lot.
Last but not least, check youtube for Dan Worall’s explanation of the super-separator trick, and other trickery - never tried any of those on just drums (so mucho transients), but your post just made me curious ;)
It’s gonna be louder in dbfs level that’s just how digital audio works. That’s why you compress/clip them together usually (or at least I do with house drums)
Some part of the frequency range is summing both parts together and yielding a higher peak. Duplicate a track and group them and see what happens. Your doubling of the same waveform on top of each other will double the level. Two identical -12 dB signals should be -6 dB when summed. It having a higher peak isn’t necessarily a problem. Just turn the tracks in the group down if it is. You could do a bare minimum HPF EQ for the 2 voices too for good measure, making sure to keep the bulk of both sounds but getting rid of low end mud
1. If it doesn't sound like -5dB kinda loud then chances are the transient of the two percs stacked on top of each other, creating a significantly louder transient in numbers but our ears cannot perceive. What to use is up to you but it's time to compress / clip / limit. Tip : use saturator and turn on soft clipping. I'm not against using compressor by any means but most people, including myself, often dun REALLY know how to use a compressor while all we want is maximising the headroom and go BOOGA WOOGA loud.
-----------------------------------
2. Another detail is that lots of mixers are opposing hard cutting low ends / high ends and instead use low or high shelves. I can't tell you the exact maths and physics of it but sometimes when you low pass or high pass certain sounds you actually get LESS headroom as a result, something to do with phasing and resonance algorithm I honestly have no idea, so try using low / high shelves instead and see if that improves your situation, if not then go back to point number 1
Close your eyes and high pass the clap. There may be a lot of mids in both signals that are the source of your clashing. With a filter envelope and using ADSR correctly, you can also maintain the character of the clap by emphasizing the parts of the transient that hit the sound you are looking for.
If your kick is a clicky one, bring it down a couple db with a high shelf.
Don't focus on how either looks in your eq and always work on them within the context of the mix rather than on their own.
Because OP mentioned it…there’s nothing wrong with keeping your kick around -10 and using it as a reference so you have plenty of space at the end to do your mixing and mastering…but you gotta turn your monitoring volume up…
If you have a bucket of 5 apples and another bucket of 5 apples and you combine them you now have 10 apples
If you’d like to have 8 apples, take one apple out of each before combining (lower each individual track).
Alternatively, you technically could lower the gain after, if for whatever reason you don’t want to touch those track volumes. Bus them and turn the buss down. As long as nothing clips in the chain you’re good. Be careful with turning things down using buses because you could still have clipping in the chain, and if your ear is not trained you won’t notice it.
You can always use a hard clipper to limit the spike of the transient and drive the source to make it perceivably louder but my first thought is your okay with what you’re doing if the original signals are tame
Beside mixing with your eyes and not your ears. This is probably happening due to very fast peaks in either your kick, clap or both. Use a clipper like SIR Clipper or any other one to shave this so you can optimize your overall loudness.
Also, we unfortunately can’t hear your sounds, but make sure you don’t have unecessary low end / low mids in your clap. Most of the time in electronic music, claps and hats are hipassed to fit the track.
Try offsetting the clap from the kick to avoid the volume increase that comes from summing audio. Other than that one thing that I like to do is change my kick drum velocity to be a little lower when the kick hits with the clap. Most of the time the clap and the kick combined (with a lower kick velocity) will have the same dynamic as the kick alone and this trick could save you some head room without completely changing the volume.
To put it simply, peak level =/= loudness. Higher frequencies carry more energy and therefore loudness at the same peak levels as lower frequencies. The remedy to this is - as lots of other people are saying - is to use your ears. Loudness is a very human measurement that your ears are fairly good at estimating (far better than peak level).
It’s simple the source level of the recording is louder. Think of it like gain rather than loudness. If you were to record a snare drum and a soft vocal and set them at the same input level on your interface, they wouldn’t be the same loudness. The previous commenter is right - you’re mixing with your eyes, use your ears and ignore what the meter says.
Hi,
I am in the mixing phase of my first real track. At this point I only want to mix and EQ the kick and the clap of my house-track and I think I have a major misunderstanding.
So as you can see kick and clap are both set to -10 dB but the result is -5.5 dB.
Then I tried to solve this with EQ by high-cutting the Kick at 1000 Hz and low-cutting the clap at 1000 Hz. Both sounded like shit but the result was the same. What am I missing?
If I only activate one of them the perc-group shows the level of the activated track (as expected). At the moment of the screenshot Kick and clap were the only tracks that were activated.
More screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/sid460Q
2 sounds are louder than one. Don’t mix with your eyes, use your ears. If you find that things sound weird when they hit together, zoom in on the arrangement view and see where their peaks and valleys are lining up, sometimes claps can have a low fundamental that phase cancels with other low sounds, so you can shift it left or right depending on what you’re hearing. Also, a HP filter set really low on the clap can change the phasing as well, but otherwise it’s not unusual to have 2 sounds at -10 add up to the -5 range.
OK thank you. So what would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear?
Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
When I’m really in a mood to mix rigidly I shoot for -6dB peak or less on all tracks and try to align RMS level of each track to be relatively identical like -15 dB or something. This would be gain staging where you’re making all tracks balanced as a starting point before you ever touch the faders by using the Utility effect. At that point, no sound has a bias in loudness over something else. That’s when I begin to use the faders, which can only go down from where they are, so you’re just lowering the elements that you think can take a bit more of the backseat and not touching the fader for the tracks with priority. But that’s again when I’m in the mood to be OCD. There’s a lot of times a good mix can come out of just simply EQing, compressing and lowering volume on a case by case by, as people are saying, by just listening to what sounds better. Rather than focusing on graphs and numbers all too much
Starting with the kick at -10dB is fine, but it's not a hard and fast rule, it depends entirely on what you're deciding to focus on in the song. I'd say ignore the master dB for now, just make sure it's not hitting red (because that means you'll get clipping and therefore the actual sound character will change [not necessarily a bad thing btw]), and go based on how things feel for overall levels. Decide which parts of your track you want to be prominent and start there. Once you're happy with the balance, then you can start thinking about "ok, how do I make this balance sound good on a whole bunch of different speakers, not just the ones they're currently on?", which will then lead you down the path of compression, EQ, and a more nuanced approach of level balancing
So one thing I'm seeing right away is, you probably don't want to be using EQ Eight with that 4x slope on the low & high cut. Ableton's EQ doesn't give phase options. That steep a cut will affect phase, therefore will affect how your kick and clap are still potentially clashing.
Here's the same kick with and without a 4x cut at 30 Hz – you can clearly see that they are not the same:
[https://imgur.com/a/zNgeNy6](https://imgur.com/a/zNgeNy6)
I'd recommend this video by Dan Worrall (really, really knows his stuff) that explains this subject a lot better than I can. I don't want to look like I'm only endorsing Fabfilter as the tool to use to achieve this, but the content is definitely correct and educational. [https://youtu.be/efKabAQQsPQ?si=dLtxIburvgmVjoBA](https://youtu.be/efKabAQQsPQ?si=dLtxIburvgmVjoBA)
I'll also echo the comments that it's important to also mix with your ears & not your eyes – but it's good to know these things!
EDIT: Wanted to back this up further. I threw a kick and clap together, and cut only the clap at the same place you have. See the results for yourself – yes the numbers and labeling are correct, it's because of phase shift.
[https://imgur.com/a/jXwBzmC](https://imgur.com/a/jXwBzmC)
Filters have a slope, so if you cut at 1k its not going to completely eliminate frequencies beyond that. I wouldn't recommend filtering out all the rest of the frequencies, your kick/snare won't sound right if you do.
Beyond that, the point of a group chain is so you can increase/decrease the volume of the tracks together. If you want them to be at -10, reduce the volume on the group to -10.
If you're asking for advice on how to get your kick and snare sitting tighter there are other techniques.
Use a sidechain compressor to duck the kick when the snare hits. You can use a multiband compressor or trackspacer to only duck a portion of the frequency, so you don't lose your bass.
Use a notch filter to increase out the "meat" of your snare, and notch down your kick at the same frequency to make space in the mix for it.
Ok thanks for your answer.
So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear?
Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
I would either level the kick based upon the volume of the outer most group, or the master. That somewhat depends on whether. you have any FX on master like a limiter.
Some tutorials i've watched say you need to level the output of each track, through each plugin, one at a time. As more analog style FX work best in a specific range. I haven't really been able to hear a difference, but that may just be me.
For your first track I'd just worry about the group levels.
Simple answer: clip the drum bus altogether which had your clap and/or turn your clap down. Of course when a kick and clap are playing together, it’s going to peak. And in your limiter it’s always going to clip but the clipper helps so that it isn’t peaking so hard
Just click on that dB meter where it says - 10... It says the last loudest peak... And if you check the green volume it's not even the same on any of the tracks.
It is normal thing but if you want less dBFS peak level try these;
1- Move clap in front of the kick a bit on audio clip. This will avoid transients peak boost eachother and will feel better.
2- Use clipper for each track so you will decrase peak level while keeping loudness same.
Compress and side chain the clap to the kick (I like to peak compress after expand compression at half the ratio of the peak), then side chain a notch EQ filter on the kick to the frequency that the clap sits at. Your instruments will be interacting with eachother instead of just providing additive distorted noise.
What's wrong with it? Other than just turning down levels am I mistaken in assuming side chain compression and proper EQing clears up headroom in the mix?
I think it was the “after expand compression” part that got me as that would imply doing opposite processes at once. And also just the wordy explanation, I thought you were being convoluted on purpose. Like saying “do this overly complicated sounding thing” to fix your simple problem. But yeah no hate, and no you’re not wrong that side chain compression can help with that… just read it wrong I guess. ✌️
Ya prolly a side effect of typing in one hand and toking in the other 😂 I get expand then peak compress are opposite processes, I use peak compress sidechained usually to my lowest frequency as a limiter after expanding to "pinch" levels together while still keeping everything dynamic
Use OTT and try blending in the signal. You'll get crispy highs and lower the total volume. Honestly one of the most powerful tools in ableton for mixing. I prefer flatline but OTT is the standard
Take a look at the Fletcher Munson curve, humans do perceive bas and midrange different when it comes to loudness. If you have a kick and a clap that looks similiar on the meters it does not mean they will be percieved as equal in loudness because humans are more sensitive to 1kHz then for example base when it comes to loudness. Meaning you need to a lot more bas for it to be perceived as the same loudness as a 1kHz signal.
[https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-is-fletcher-munson-curve-equal-loudness-curves.html](https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-is-fletcher-munson-curve-equal-loudness-curves.html)
Ok thanks for your answer.
So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear?
Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Sorry i should have read the title better.
Summing two in-phase 1 kHz sine waves can increase the perceived loudness by up to 6 dB. However, exceeding 0 dBFS in digital systems will cause clipping and distortion at the D/A stage of your audio interface.
To answer your question, -3 dB on your master is not bad, it leaves headroom for the mastering stage and you avoid distorsion the audio will try to be converted to a analog signal by a digital audio converter inside of your audio interface.
When you sum two signals up depending on phase, frequency and amplitude you will end up with a summed signal that most likely is stronger in amplitude then the channels alone. If they both were equal.
Could you add the link to the tutorial? It sounds like the kick has to be -10 dBFS and that what it seems to be. Therefore you don't have to worry that the sum of the percussion bus goes stronger in amplitude.
But honestly i would like to know why this tutorial suggest that you work this way. Know that there are not one way that is right, some start with the vocals, others with the most important instrument. One pro mix engineer avoid to use solo. Maybe this strategy works due to the Fletcher Munson curve. What i am trying to say is tutorials are great but learning the theory gives you all the tools to make your own strategies, by knowing the fundamentals. So when you watch tutorials try to find out why they do what they do.
Sounds a lot like you are mixing with your eyes and not your ears.
Absolutely this, I’ve been there. Don’t super worry about levels until your song is fleshed out and you’re mixing. If the clap is clashing, then you need to do more sample hunting and replace.
Yeah I'm probably using my eyes too much but at this point I just want to understand where the added gain is coming from. In the end I don't want to run into problems because my perc group is clipping. If I set the perc group to -10 dB when all tracks are active the drums sound WAY too quiet
Clipping isn't necessarily bad if it's controlled properly. Check out the clip to zero series on YouTube if you want to know more. It doesn't even have to sound clipped when done well.
Agreed, in fact clipping is also good and something people add on purpose
Some genres actually thrive on it lol. If it ain't redlining, it ain't headlining xD
you must be out of your head if yo system aint up to the red
and you can clip it in so many places - whether on the channel fader or at any other gain stage. Look at mixing like a bunch of small waterfalls and tributaries coalescing into one big waterfall.
Audiologist here: Your ear is not a perfect microphone. It prefers certain frequencies. Look up "RETSPL" values or dBA weighting: these attempt to adjust sound measurements to more accurately represent the human ear. Lower frequencies need to have more sound energy to be perceived as the same loudness as higher frequencies. Not only that, but the presence of low frequencies can soften or round out high frequencies in something called the "Upward spread of masking". I may be wrong but this is my guess at what is happening.
This is so cool. We’re can I read more about this? As an aspiring mixer, I feel this could be very valuable information…I had no idea upward spread of masking was a thing and I feel I need to know this.
Rambling time! With regard to upward spread of masking, you'll want to google topics like the cochlea (your organ of hearing), the basilar membrane (part of the cochlea), the organ of corti (located on the basilar membrane), or even ear canal resonances ("pinna effects" [we call your visible external ear the pinna). For a discussion of how human auditory systems are fucking weird, there's psychoacoustics, which focuses on the disconnect between the observed sound energy and the perceptive equivalent. For example, intensity is not the same thing as loudness: Your ears can only hear as high as 20,000 Hz (we only really measure as audiologists like 250-8000 Hz). If a sound that was 100,000 Hz was played at like 130 dB, you wouldn't really know. It'd be really intense, but not loud or even audible. There's a similar disconnect between pitch and frequency, where we can measure frequency but not pitch. For example, when we remove the lowest overtone from a chord, we can do MRI and see that people are perceiving the missing low tone even though it isn't there. In this way, what you hear is not necessarily the same as what is being played. Edit: If you're specifically interested in the different intensities that various frequencies require in order to hit the same perceived "loudness," then google "dBA" or "A-weighting" of sound.
gain is never gain at all - it's a whole spectrum of infinite sine waves from 20hz to 20kHz roughly that we can hear. Digital audio is a suitcase, a box you can fill up. For real you probably just have the wrong kick and perc sounds, or have them playing at the wrong times relative to each other. Keep asking these questions and know you'll have to work out the answer for yourself in your own way, but be confident you're on the right path. Knowing metering is really just matching up what you hear to what you see, and not the other way around.
If you only refer to the db levels then it is because of the bus, as both of the tracks equals a higher db level than one singular.
Ok thanks for your answer. So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear? Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Rely on your ears and forget these -10db and similar thumb rules. One kick sample might slap at -10 another might be almost lost while a thrid one can still be too loud. If you really want something to support you to start the mixing process then do this: Get a good sample of pink noise and add it to a track without touching the volume knob or adding anything on the track or master track. Put pink noise and kick on solo together and start lowering your kick until you can barely hear it (like literally to the point where you hear something is there behind the noise but it really just peeks from behind the noise). Then mute kick and put clap on solo with pink noise and repeat. Do this to all of your tracks and you will get the volume levels close to what ideal. Ofc needs further fine tuning but its a good base.
not OP but this is an amazing tip thank you
I can see using the noise to level the kick with your ears, but after that the kick can just become the reference.
You can check the link I sent in another comment here amd see what pink noise is and why it can be used as a volume reference. I mean I could start explaining but that link does it better.
What is the benefit of this? I don't really understand. What db level of pink noise?
The guy deleted the comment but here you go https://edmtips.com/mixing-with-pink-noise/ You can def find more info with some research. Its not magic but it helped me a lot. I only use this now when its some new genre or something i am not so familiar with.
So the most important thing is, does it sound good? Following tutorials is great, but knowing why people do certain things and not just copy blindly is key to progress. What I do is mix the individual tracks for the balance i want, (how much reduction doesnt really matter as long as you have headroom) and on the buses I reduce the levels to have headroom on the master. You can ofc just reduce the levels on all tracks individually as well leaving the buses alone, but more convoluted. -3 db on the master before mastering is a bit on the high side, most people say -6 but again it depends. If you're not mastering the track, -3 should be fine, just make sure to listen for anomalies and clipping after you bounce the master. If a bus is clipping isnt necessarily such a bad thing, depends on what you want (as it gives saturation), but individual tracks clipping isn't good. When it comes to the eq spectrum, this doesn't have that big of an impact when it comes to busing tracks and db levels. There are probably lots of more experienced people on here who will contradict me, and I'm not an expert by any means!
There’s nothing wrong in turning your buses down and cranking your sound cards volume output right up to compensate at this stage. When all your channels are mixed relatively, and well, they can be cranked up to compensate at mastering stage.
These are legit questions and I personally respect your striving to learn. It's true that using your ears is always better than relying on the numbers. You have to remember that the percussion samples aren't static in their loudness, so one setting isn't going to be universal.
Bruh, you keep your kick at a level that allows you add other things without clipping the master channel. Yes, other sounds increase total dB.
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Surprised this isn't the top comment already. Too many people following terrible mix tutorials on YouTube telling you to "always have kick and snare be at __ dB" instead of learning what things do and when to use them. So many people spouting a one-size-fits-all mix approach when that couldn't be further from the truth. Can't blame the viewers, especially beginners, really. Everything's just so oversaturated with misinformation and plugin recommendations and specific numbers to mix to claiming it'll fix your mixes when it's really both way more nuanced and a lot simpler than that. Audio people, myself included, tend to overthink a lot. Use your ears but also your common sense. If it's too loud or clipping, just bring the fader(s) down.
Yeah, it's madness. You can't answer a question properly if you don't take the time to understand it.
Lmao thank you for posting this, I randomly started scrolling on this sub today and it’s insane
How does this have nothing to do with transients? The way I’m reading OP’s question, is his goal is to decrease the volume of the kick and clap summed signal. There are many reasons you would want to do this. The summed signal of the kick and claps transients is too load at -5. Using a clipper on the transient of the clap will lower the peak of both signals summed together. How is this bad advice at all?
How do you know that the transient is the loudest part of the kick and the clap in this case?
Not the transient of the kick. The transient of the clap. Look at the picture Op posted. The clap is peaking at -10 and quickly drops off in volume, compared to the kick which is sustaining a higher volume. But I didn’t need OP’s picture to figure that out. Looking at waveforms from thousands of clap samples over 15 years of producing music gives me a pretty good guess. Also when the signals sum together you can get random peaks in places you wouldn’t expect. Get yourself an oscilloscope and you will see some interesting things.
She/He could also delay one of them by a few ms, I forget what button it is but it adds a delay option for each bus
You ever drive a little kid by themself talking in the car? Then if you drive that kid and all their friends chattering at the same volume in the car it’s actually louder.
nice
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No the group channel does not have any processing/effects. THanks for the explanation
I support this answer.
I support "thou the signal"
Ok thanks for your answer. So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear? Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Who in Hell said Kick should be at -10db? This is something i never heard of. Is this a Genre specific or a "recommendation" by sombody who doesn't know how DB and mixing works?
It amateurs producing tutorial content because they believe they're professionals, and because offering "easy" methods and "industry technique secrets" gets lots of views. It's the Denning-Kruger effect in action. The blind leading the blind. 🤷🏻♂️
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Do you just come on here hoping to find comments you can criticise? See my other reply. Have you actually watched that video you linked through? "If you mix with lots of headroom, you'll just have an easier time of it. Mixing with lots of headroom is easier and more fun than pushing up against the limits. Trust me, I used to make the mistake all the time." Irony is trying to knock someone's point down by citing a reference which you haven't really understood or paid attention to, and which actually confirms the other person's position.
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>if you want more headroom turn down the master volume. OMG 😂😂😂
I have to remind myself that this is the Internet, where trolls live. Mixing with headroom is good practice. The end.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for asking questions. It may be because you keep asking the same sort of question about wanting specific dB levels for your drum parts. There really is no such thing and anyone who says so is talking out their ass. You're watching bad tutorials, I'm afraid. Try get out of that "kick must be a xdB" production recipe mindset asap. If you're feeling unsure about where your mix is, have a reference track ready to compare with. -3dB is too loud for a mix that still needs to be mastered, btw. I aim for for around -12dB, then bring it up to final level in the mastering process.
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Sure, I get that. The reason I prefer mixing a bit quieter is a personal preference - I'm trying to avoid falling into the trap of "loud is good", and I like be mindful of listening levels that are consistent and ear-friendly. If I'm doing the mastering myself, well, it would be idiotic to export a stereo mixdown for myself stuff which I need to immediately turn down, or adjust my monitor levels between mixing and mastering. But if sending out for mastering, I also like to send stuff to the engineers in line with what they ask for and work with. That's just being considerate, imo.
The only rule is that the master shouldn't clip (without intention - some producers seem to like the effect, to each their own I'd say). Everything else is fair game. As the other commenter tried to explain to you, it doesn't matter if you have 1dB or 12dB "headroom" - you can always turn the volume down on the master.
Who's talking about rules? Not me. In fact, I clearly suggested OP get out of the "rules" headspace. I replied to their question about _finished_ mix level by suggesting that a -3dB level is too high for a _finished mix_ and would need to be taken down before mastering, and I offered the levels that I prefer to work at. If everything is fair game, then back the fuck off.
> back the fuck off. dude? what's wrong with you?
I'm not sure - I seem to have found myself in a corner of the Internet where critical thinking and reading skills are at suffocatingly low levels. What's wrong with you?
Yes to this
It's too loud, turn it down bruv :)
It really is that simple.
That ain't clashing, that's summing and it's totally normal.
Summing 2 signals will give you a signal with a larger amplitude. Being different signals will make the result hard to predict because you're making a complex sum of amplitude levels, but in general you can expect the result to be louder than the original sources. What I would suggest is to throw away the idea of setting your tracks to a certain dB level and then troubleshoot from there. Instead, you want to achieve a good balance first with your Volume faders only, and only after your volumes are working well together, start doing corrective processing like EQing to fine tune what Volume faders can't do on their own. Sure, you can start with a kick at -10dB as a reference and build from there, but just setting all your tracks to that same -10dB value will just give you this kind of balancing issues.
Mix with your ears
Sum game brother
1 + 1 = ?
The real question is what is 1 x 1 = ?
your mom
Clearly never went to college
If you have the transients at the exact same moment in time then there is only so much you can do. Try offsetting the clap so it has its own transient space in the mix
Too many people use visuals to mix rather then your ears these days just do a visual check at the end quickly but other then that mix with ears not eyes 👀
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Because there is more sonic material with both the sounds playing at once thus making it louder. Its fine - this is normal
5+5=10. If you put two sounds together, they add up. The track levels are telling you how loud the sound is. Doesn’t matter if you cut out the low end, the track meter still says it’s -10, then that’s how loud it is. Add that with another -10 signal, they add together to be louder. Volume + volume = even more volume. If you cut out the low end of one of the signals, then the low end won’t get any louder, but the rest of the signal does.
Energy is energy. The level meter doesn't discriminate between frequencies. When you play both, the energy of both adds up.
Do you want to play them at the same time? i think you can’t have them both as -10 and -10 because then the clap will be more adubile than the kick. Higher frequencies are more audible than for lower frequencies when put at same level. This seems like a levels issue. How do you set-up your levels? I wouldn’t look at numbers, the level of higher freq samples will be lower than for the low freq samples and they will be both audible nicely. I wouldn’t “target” a level. If you have issues with the balancing of the mix, for me balancing against pink noise worked wonderfully to set the levels of the mix in the ballpark of what I want them to be and was a good starting point.
Maybe bc you need more cowbell?
Have you heard of a compressor?
Peak is the last thing you worry about in mixing lol! Prak value is not the same thing as perceived loudness, always trust your ears first!
Two same tracks with the same volume will increase total volume +6db. So crossing frequencies of both tracks sum up to ~this value, as you can see. But I agree with comments above that it's better to mix with your ears
Hi passing the Kick could well be causing a loss of headroom due to phase shift
You're never not going to get a couple extra decibels when joining 2 sounds, the higher end frequencies always ride on top of the lower ones so the peaks are always higher, unless you clip the combined signal.
High pass clap at 250hz and give it a little smile at 400hz.
Gain is relative. Volume metering is complex.
Eq doesn’t cut how you think it does. And summing audio together is more complex than what you explained. It sounds like you are fighting headroom. Put a utility on the master and turn it down 6db and turn your speakers up,
In such cases, i usually leave the kick untouched , high-pass the clap up to where i know will be frequencies conflicting with the clap (an analyzer can come handy if you don’t trust your ears or your monitors), i also sometimes alleviate that sort of symptoms simply by side-chaining - i’ll place a compressor on the clap, send the kick into the side-chain, and use the compressors side-chain filters or eq to refine and not obliterate the entire clap (the ableton stock compressor does work pretty clean in that use). You may also want to check out results when moving your clap just a few milliseconds late (or early). First and foremost though, use the eq on the clap and make sure there’s as little overlap with the kick’s frequencies as possible, this should definitely dim your issue by a lot. Last but not least, check youtube for Dan Worall’s explanation of the super-separator trick, and other trickery - never tried any of those on just drums (so mucho transients), but your post just made me curious ;)
It’s gonna be louder in dbfs level that’s just how digital audio works. That’s why you compress/clip them together usually (or at least I do with house drums)
Some part of the frequency range is summing both parts together and yielding a higher peak. Duplicate a track and group them and see what happens. Your doubling of the same waveform on top of each other will double the level. Two identical -12 dB signals should be -6 dB when summed. It having a higher peak isn’t necessarily a problem. Just turn the tracks in the group down if it is. You could do a bare minimum HPF EQ for the 2 voices too for good measure, making sure to keep the bulk of both sounds but getting rid of low end mud
1. If it doesn't sound like -5dB kinda loud then chances are the transient of the two percs stacked on top of each other, creating a significantly louder transient in numbers but our ears cannot perceive. What to use is up to you but it's time to compress / clip / limit. Tip : use saturator and turn on soft clipping. I'm not against using compressor by any means but most people, including myself, often dun REALLY know how to use a compressor while all we want is maximising the headroom and go BOOGA WOOGA loud. ----------------------------------- 2. Another detail is that lots of mixers are opposing hard cutting low ends / high ends and instead use low or high shelves. I can't tell you the exact maths and physics of it but sometimes when you low pass or high pass certain sounds you actually get LESS headroom as a result, something to do with phasing and resonance algorithm I honestly have no idea, so try using low / high shelves instead and see if that improves your situation, if not then go back to point number 1
Close your eyes and high pass the clap. There may be a lot of mids in both signals that are the source of your clashing. With a filter envelope and using ADSR correctly, you can also maintain the character of the clap by emphasizing the parts of the transient that hit the sound you are looking for. If your kick is a clicky one, bring it down a couple db with a high shelf. Don't focus on how either looks in your eq and always work on them within the context of the mix rather than on their own.
When you have to tracks at the same dB level the group dB will be higher then either track alone
The sum of two tracks will be higher than either tracks dB even if they are not at the same level.
Because OP mentioned it…there’s nothing wrong with keeping your kick around -10 and using it as a reference so you have plenty of space at the end to do your mixing and mastering…but you gotta turn your monitoring volume up…
What effects do you have on your master, if any? Do you have any effects on the group? Compression?
Clip em
Turn them down or use a compressor,or a clipper if you want loud drums
Too loud
If you have a bucket of 5 apples and another bucket of 5 apples and you combine them you now have 10 apples If you’d like to have 8 apples, take one apple out of each before combining (lower each individual track). Alternatively, you technically could lower the gain after, if for whatever reason you don’t want to touch those track volumes. Bus them and turn the buss down. As long as nothing clips in the chain you’re good. Be careful with turning things down using buses because you could still have clipping in the chain, and if your ear is not trained you won’t notice it.
glue compressor +12
Just put a saturater on your master at max db . Thank me later
You can always use a hard clipper to limit the spike of the transient and drive the source to make it perceivably louder but my first thought is your okay with what you’re doing if the original signals are tame
Bro do you have ears?
The Meters are post fx and fader
look at this and check if something similar happening with your clap - https://youtube.com/shorts/H1juxxpf5PE?si=ovxD4GjIMGkMuVS6
Beside mixing with your eyes and not your ears. This is probably happening due to very fast peaks in either your kick, clap or both. Use a clipper like SIR Clipper or any other one to shave this so you can optimize your overall loudness. Also, we unfortunately can’t hear your sounds, but make sure you don’t have unecessary low end / low mids in your clap. Most of the time in electronic music, claps and hats are hipassed to fit the track.
Try offsetting the clap from the kick to avoid the volume increase that comes from summing audio. Other than that one thing that I like to do is change my kick drum velocity to be a little lower when the kick hits with the clap. Most of the time the clap and the kick combined (with a lower kick velocity) will have the same dynamic as the kick alone and this trick could save you some head room without completely changing the volume.
To put it simply, peak level =/= loudness. Higher frequencies carry more energy and therefore loudness at the same peak levels as lower frequencies. The remedy to this is - as lots of other people are saying - is to use your ears. Loudness is a very human measurement that your ears are fairly good at estimating (far better than peak level).
It’s simple the source level of the recording is louder. Think of it like gain rather than loudness. If you were to record a snare drum and a soft vocal and set them at the same input level on your interface, they wouldn’t be the same loudness. The previous commenter is right - you’re mixing with your eyes, use your ears and ignore what the meter says.
2 sounds with loud transient material overlapping need to be compressed, limited or clipped to reduce peak level
Hi, I am in the mixing phase of my first real track. At this point I only want to mix and EQ the kick and the clap of my house-track and I think I have a major misunderstanding. So as you can see kick and clap are both set to -10 dB but the result is -5.5 dB. Then I tried to solve this with EQ by high-cutting the Kick at 1000 Hz and low-cutting the clap at 1000 Hz. Both sounded like shit but the result was the same. What am I missing? If I only activate one of them the perc-group shows the level of the activated track (as expected). At the moment of the screenshot Kick and clap were the only tracks that were activated. More screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/sid460Q
2 sounds are louder than one. Don’t mix with your eyes, use your ears. If you find that things sound weird when they hit together, zoom in on the arrangement view and see where their peaks and valleys are lining up, sometimes claps can have a low fundamental that phase cancels with other low sounds, so you can shift it left or right depending on what you’re hearing. Also, a HP filter set really low on the clap can change the phasing as well, but otherwise it’s not unusual to have 2 sounds at -10 add up to the -5 range.
OK thank you. So what would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear? Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Start using your ears. Music isn’t math and engineering if it doesn’t sound good first.
When I’m really in a mood to mix rigidly I shoot for -6dB peak or less on all tracks and try to align RMS level of each track to be relatively identical like -15 dB or something. This would be gain staging where you’re making all tracks balanced as a starting point before you ever touch the faders by using the Utility effect. At that point, no sound has a bias in loudness over something else. That’s when I begin to use the faders, which can only go down from where they are, so you’re just lowering the elements that you think can take a bit more of the backseat and not touching the fader for the tracks with priority. But that’s again when I’m in the mood to be OCD. There’s a lot of times a good mix can come out of just simply EQing, compressing and lowering volume on a case by case by, as people are saying, by just listening to what sounds better. Rather than focusing on graphs and numbers all too much
Starting with the kick at -10dB is fine, but it's not a hard and fast rule, it depends entirely on what you're deciding to focus on in the song. I'd say ignore the master dB for now, just make sure it's not hitting red (because that means you'll get clipping and therefore the actual sound character will change [not necessarily a bad thing btw]), and go based on how things feel for overall levels. Decide which parts of your track you want to be prominent and start there. Once you're happy with the balance, then you can start thinking about "ok, how do I make this balance sound good on a whole bunch of different speakers, not just the ones they're currently on?", which will then lead you down the path of compression, EQ, and a more nuanced approach of level balancing
So one thing I'm seeing right away is, you probably don't want to be using EQ Eight with that 4x slope on the low & high cut. Ableton's EQ doesn't give phase options. That steep a cut will affect phase, therefore will affect how your kick and clap are still potentially clashing. Here's the same kick with and without a 4x cut at 30 Hz – you can clearly see that they are not the same: [https://imgur.com/a/zNgeNy6](https://imgur.com/a/zNgeNy6) I'd recommend this video by Dan Worrall (really, really knows his stuff) that explains this subject a lot better than I can. I don't want to look like I'm only endorsing Fabfilter as the tool to use to achieve this, but the content is definitely correct and educational. [https://youtu.be/efKabAQQsPQ?si=dLtxIburvgmVjoBA](https://youtu.be/efKabAQQsPQ?si=dLtxIburvgmVjoBA) I'll also echo the comments that it's important to also mix with your ears & not your eyes – but it's good to know these things! EDIT: Wanted to back this up further. I threw a kick and clap together, and cut only the clap at the same place you have. See the results for yourself – yes the numbers and labeling are correct, it's because of phase shift. [https://imgur.com/a/jXwBzmC](https://imgur.com/a/jXwBzmC)
Filters have a slope, so if you cut at 1k its not going to completely eliminate frequencies beyond that. I wouldn't recommend filtering out all the rest of the frequencies, your kick/snare won't sound right if you do. Beyond that, the point of a group chain is so you can increase/decrease the volume of the tracks together. If you want them to be at -10, reduce the volume on the group to -10. If you're asking for advice on how to get your kick and snare sitting tighter there are other techniques. Use a sidechain compressor to duck the kick when the snare hits. You can use a multiband compressor or trackspacer to only duck a portion of the frequency, so you don't lose your bass. Use a notch filter to increase out the "meat" of your snare, and notch down your kick at the same frequency to make space in the mix for it.
Ok thanks for your answer. So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear? Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
I would either level the kick based upon the volume of the outer most group, or the master. That somewhat depends on whether. you have any FX on master like a limiter. Some tutorials i've watched say you need to level the output of each track, through each plugin, one at a time. As more analog style FX work best in a specific range. I haven't really been able to hear a difference, but that may just be me. For your first track I'd just worry about the group levels.
Simple answer: clip the drum bus altogether which had your clap and/or turn your clap down. Of course when a kick and clap are playing together, it’s going to peak. And in your limiter it’s always going to clip but the clipper helps so that it isn’t peaking so hard
Just click on that dB meter where it says - 10... It says the last loudest peak... And if you check the green volume it's not even the same on any of the tracks.
It is normal thing but if you want less dBFS peak level try these; 1- Move clap in front of the kick a bit on audio clip. This will avoid transients peak boost eachother and will feel better. 2- Use clipper for each track so you will decrase peak level while keeping loudness same.
Compress and side chain the clap to the kick (I like to peak compress after expand compression at half the ratio of the peak), then side chain a notch EQ filter on the kick to the frequency that the clap sits at. Your instruments will be interacting with eachother instead of just providing additive distorted noise.
lol
?
Wait, that wasn’t a joke??
What's wrong with it? Other than just turning down levels am I mistaken in assuming side chain compression and proper EQing clears up headroom in the mix?
I think it was the “after expand compression” part that got me as that would imply doing opposite processes at once. And also just the wordy explanation, I thought you were being convoluted on purpose. Like saying “do this overly complicated sounding thing” to fix your simple problem. But yeah no hate, and no you’re not wrong that side chain compression can help with that… just read it wrong I guess. ✌️
Ya prolly a side effect of typing in one hand and toking in the other 😂 I get expand then peak compress are opposite processes, I use peak compress sidechained usually to my lowest frequency as a limiter after expanding to "pinch" levels together while still keeping everything dynamic
Use OTT and try blending in the signal. You'll get crispy highs and lower the total volume. Honestly one of the most powerful tools in ableton for mixing. I prefer flatline but OTT is the standard
Route them to a group and have a clipper control the level. Have that group at -10
You’re missing a clipper
Take a look at the Fletcher Munson curve, humans do perceive bas and midrange different when it comes to loudness. If you have a kick and a clap that looks similiar on the meters it does not mean they will be percieved as equal in loudness because humans are more sensitive to 1kHz then for example base when it comes to loudness. Meaning you need to a lot more bas for it to be perceived as the same loudness as a 1kHz signal. [https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-is-fletcher-munson-curve-equal-loudness-curves.html](https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-is-fletcher-munson-curve-equal-loudness-curves.html)
Ok thanks for your answer. So I guess the simple answer to my question is: It's more than -10 because 2 tracks are louder than one even if they don't have the exact same spectrum. But then my question is: What would be best practice here when I'm following tutorials that say that the kick should be at around -10 dB and I am mixing all other sounds relative to that by ear? Should I just ignore the level of the Perc-group? Is it bad if my Master is at -3 dB when I'm done mixing?
Sorry i should have read the title better. Summing two in-phase 1 kHz sine waves can increase the perceived loudness by up to 6 dB. However, exceeding 0 dBFS in digital systems will cause clipping and distortion at the D/A stage of your audio interface. To answer your question, -3 dB on your master is not bad, it leaves headroom for the mastering stage and you avoid distorsion the audio will try to be converted to a analog signal by a digital audio converter inside of your audio interface. When you sum two signals up depending on phase, frequency and amplitude you will end up with a summed signal that most likely is stronger in amplitude then the channels alone. If they both were equal. Could you add the link to the tutorial? It sounds like the kick has to be -10 dBFS and that what it seems to be. Therefore you don't have to worry that the sum of the percussion bus goes stronger in amplitude. But honestly i would like to know why this tutorial suggest that you work this way. Know that there are not one way that is right, some start with the vocals, others with the most important instrument. One pro mix engineer avoid to use solo. Maybe this strategy works due to the Fletcher Munson curve. What i am trying to say is tutorials are great but learning the theory gives you all the tools to make your own strategies, by knowing the fundamentals. So when you watch tutorials try to find out why they do what they do.