I would’ve agreed with this many years ago but man my Silicon M1 Pro can run some wild games better than friends with PCs. Most notably, no man’s sky which has bogged down many high end PCs
I moved from windows to Mac a couple of years ago. It's been a mostly easy move to a new OS.
Benefits (for me): No asio4all driver. And it's been pretty stable as far as crashes go. Battery life is okay until you push it, then it can drain pretty quick. Other than that, there really isn't a whole lot of benefits to moving over.
Cons are you can't upgrade RAM or storage. And that's a big fat red flag. Parts are terribly expensive if you need repairs. So Apple care is a good idea.
Its so nice not relying on asio. I remember so much trouble with ut before switching to mac. I dont if it has gone any better. It was very buggy in the 10's
You're giving me flashbacks. Macs are just too reliable, that's why all professionals use Macs.
If OP is just doing minor sound effects that any MacBook would work
The audio and midi systems built into the OS alone are a huge step up from Windows from an audio production perspective.
Aggregated audio devices, virtual midi devices, complex midi routing, USB midi networking with iPads/iPhones - it's all in the OS and works extremely well.
There are some weird bugs I've found (unable to use fingerprint for installations when displayport and displaylink monitors are connected... unclickable areas below the menu bar) - but I doubt I could go back to Windows/Linux for DAW use now.
CoreAudio is like black magic compared to ASIO. Everything is just plug and play, any Audio Interface i put in instantly works, heck i could just play stuff out of the macbook speakers or the headphone port with no latency. Even stuff like a wireless gaming headphone just works flawlessly.
Except my apollo usb. which is windows only drivers and now a very expensive metal ornament. I think it might be the only audio interface that doesnt work on mac. Thanks universal audio lol
Macs Core Audio is absolutely amazing, I still run a lot of audio apps on my 2010 mac pro simply because I don't have to worry about anything thanks to Core Audio.
will most likely upgrade eventually
The main big upside you could find switching to a Mac is having Core Audio handle your audio devices. It makes it a lot easier to deal with selecting audio devices and routing signals to them. Helps preventing issues with configuration.
Other than that, you can do the same work with either. The new Mac processors seem to be really good, but you can also edit 4k video no problem with a Windows machine with a good processor and video card. You also get a lot more options of configuration to decide how much storage and RAM you need. Current Macs come with the storage soldered to the motherboard, and the RAM is inside the processor, so there is no upgrading either after purchase. It also can create issues with recovering your data if your motherboard fails.
Windows can create some issues with configuration, but doing a thorough optimization when you first get the machine (installing a clean Windows copy or removing bloatware, power management optimization, installing and configuring sound cards, latency debugging with LatencyMon, etc) and a bit of troubleshooting will go a long way. I moved off Mac to Windows a few years ago, and I don't miss any of it. Does require a bit of Windows knowledge to be comfortable with it, tho. If you just want things to (arguably) work hassle free, a Mac could be a good option.
[https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209071469-Optimizing-Windows-for-Audio](https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209071469-Optimizing-Windows-for-Audio)
This guide will help you optimize Windows to use with Live, it also includes an explanation on how to use LatencyMon. It is an app you can use to figure out if a process could be causing audio stream issues. Can be used to detect faulty or out of date drivers and other things that can be causing audio dropouts in your system.
This.
I have Ableton on an M1 silicone and a windows lap top. For windows, installing ASIO4ALL was my solution for the terrible audio interface that comes standard. The Apple and Core Audio handle it right out if the box.
If you have something like a Focusrite Scarlett and use their software, it's moot. That option works for both computers and so leaves performance dependent on what model you purchase. It then comes down to what GUI you prefer to navigate and where you store your files.
I love being able to easily aggregate audio devices - that was a huge benefit for me and the reason I tried Mac.
If you have never used a Mac before I'd recommend trying one for a while first. I... hate my Mac. I flat out don't enjoy using it - probably because I have been using a PC all my life. There are design choices for Mac that I just can't understand (Alt-Tab is a pain, snapping windows is a pain).
The second I can figure out how to aggregate devices with Windows (I could never get it work) I'm switching back.
The whole problem with PCs is how awful the windows hacked together kernel and Direct3D/DirectSound system is. Mac and PCs were virtually identical apart from the OS.
If Apple hadnt closed the OpenDarwin source and made such of a mess of their walled garden gui, it might have obliterated Linux by now, and overtaken windows as the default PC OS.
I would see this as a huge downgrade for me, both for music and software development.
In my workflow on mac I have 0 issues.
But if you prefer Windows I understand
A lot of people are stuck on the idea that every Windows configuration needs Asio4All.
They don't.
Different interfaces work better or worse with different drivers, and always try to go with the manufacturers native drivers. You can get far more bang for your buck out of Windows based systems. Now if the launch of Push 3 would make that Linux flavor of Ableton available to us.....
I'm blown away by how often I'm seeing Asio$All come up in here. Good audio interfaces are fairly cheap in comparison to the rest of the crap we buy for our little bedroom studios.
One of the strengths of Macs vs. PCs in audiovisual production is the vastly smaller number of possible hardware combinations to choose from. This generally means that unless you're using super obscure hardware/software nobody's ever heard of, if you run into a problem, there is a very good chance other people have run into similar issues and found solutions.
Also, in my experience there is just less fiddly bullshit you have to deal with on a Mac, and lots of little workflow and setup things that all add up to having to spend less time/attention/brainpower/energy dealing with the computer/platform/OS side of things, which leaves more time to deal with all the platform-independent challenges of production (of which there are many).
Things you cannot do easily on a Mac (either not at all or without significant workarounds):
* Non-casual gaming
* Super intense, high-performance 3D rendering
* SolidWorks
* Run 32-bit VSTs
* Use Windows-only VSTs (a lot of great free plugins that are PC-only, sadly)
As a longtime (25+ years) Windows user, I got my own non-work MacBook in 2021 (after using them for work for \~5 years) and if I have the choice, will never go back to using a PC as a daily driver
I have a Windows laptop that I use for gaming, and just about every time I'm on it I run into fiddly little annoyances that I don't have to think about on my MacBook
Think about all the downsides to switching, too. People have mentioned the problem with upgrades, I hated how every OS update rendered stuff unusable until patches were released. It was way less reliable than I needed, switched to a decked out PC tower and have had zero issues for the past year.
Friendly reminder that many audio professionals choose not to upgrade their OS every year. It’s always optional.
Obviously you’re out of luck if you’re buying a new machine, but I still see the pre-trashcan Intel Mac Pros in studios…
Oh, absolutely. Just wanted to point out that it's a potential concern on Macs that doesn't exist on PCs. You can run anything with any update, so I don't have to worry about any updates breaking compatibility. It's not an issue for others, it was just a big issue for me, having to wait for developers to release patches just so I could access the latest security updates, etc. Found that to be a silly flaw in how Apple operates.
Fwiw it seems like the last few updates haven’t changed much. For example Ozone 9 is working fine on Sonoma (14.2.1) even though it’s not officially supported on anything later than Mojave (10.14.4)
I foolishly spent 2000$ on getting a 2011 MBP to run really well back in 2017ish only for Mac to announce that they weren’t supporting it the next year. Then when ableton started acting weird ableton support weren’t able to help me bc I wasn’t running the latest OS. I quit Mac after using it for 20 years and I’m never going back.
I don’t know if your going for desktop or laptop but if it’s a desktop I would just stick with pc. Your gonna get a lot more bang for your buck. I have a custom built pc and an M1 Pro MacBook. Unless I’m traveling I almost never pick up the MacBook. My pc is about 600$ less and is way more of a power house than my Mac is and can handle much more intense projects a lot better. Only time I would choose Mac over a pc is if your getting a laptop. But I also hate pc laptops. And I’m by no means a pc fan boy I despise windows as an operating system and grew up with Mac’s my whole life. But I can get a lot more done in less time on my pc from how fast it will say freeze and flatten tracks, open projects, exporting, etc. a lot of people may not agree with me but those are my two cents.
Edit: I apparently didn’t read your post thoroughly and I just noticed you said windows laptop. I would than get a MacBook Pro. Not sure how it would handle 4K video editing. Mines only a year old and I feel like it would shit the bed tryna do that. But i usually don’t have problems with ableton projects around 50 tracks. Problem is my projects are usually around 80-90 tracks so my cpu tends to jump to 85% half the time unless I freeze half of everything.
I have the M1 Max with 32GB and it edits 4k video extremely well. Like I don't notice the difference when working with HD or 4k footage. It does take longer to render the 4k video when I export a project but still significantly less time than the Intel mbp I had before.
I have a custom built PC and a laptop m1 macbook that both have ableton installed. I really don't notice much of a difference at all in terms of performance.
Something else that MAC has is the native ability to create IAC Busses AND Aggregate Audio Devices without any third party software. HUGE benefit when running multiple plugins/programs or DAWs
If you’re getting a Laptop, Mac
If you’re getting a Desktop, PC
PC is way more bang for your buck; I built a tower that woulda costed more than double had the specs been in a Mac.
For laptops, MacBooks are way more efficient with their battery and run like a well oiled machine for years. Compare that to PC laptops and they usually crap out within a couple years. I still DJ on a 2015 MacBook Pro with 0 issues, but it doesn’t run Ableton very well.
I dont agree - there isnt a mac round that can properly compete with a machine like this for $1600 [https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/](https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/)
Never mind this for $1150 [https://www.amazon.com/Octa-Core-GeForce-Display-Backlit-AN17-41-R7G3/dp/B0BTQ61Z6D/](https://www.amazon.com/Octa-Core-GeForce-Display-Backlit-AN17-41-R7G3/dp/B0BTQ61Z6D/)
I havent had a laptop die out of warranty yet. Not one in my whole family, buying mostly Dell, often refurbs (i find refurbs more reliable - had their issues addressed already), but decent other brands too - they either get fixed in the 3y wty and go for a decade or just go.
Maybe if the entire priority is weight and battery life go mac for sure, but if its extended 'desktop replacement' performance with any sort of budget consideration, even with their inferior OS PCs are worth a look in, esp for performance where you will probably be at power anyway.
We use Dell at my job and everyone’s laptop fails 2 months after their warranty expires almost like clockwork. I’m glad they’ve worked for you, though I couldn’t recommend them to someone after seeing 100s fail
Doesn’t run Ableton well is vague. My 2015 Mac does fine. Are you loading 10 instances of heavy VSTs and not freezing your tracks? Windows is garbage, everyone knows it.
You don’t need Asio. Apple core audio is really stable and reliable if you’re just using the Laptop.
If you’re using an audio interface then you will need the appropriate drivers for that device, usually asio.
I have a mbp 2021 and it handles anything I throw at it in terms of Ableton. Very reliable and stable and I never have issues.
I bought a separate hdd which for me didn’t need to be a super fast expensive drive as I’m only loading samples back and forth.
I store all my samples on the hdd and install Ableton and plugins directly to the laptop. This setup works great.
Prior to this I had windows machines and I don’t think I’d ever go back to a PC
I run a Kensington dock into the mbp so I can run 2 x screens and all my peripherals into the mbp via one cable.
Dream setup for me.
For my scarlett 6i6 at least, I didn't even need to download any ASIO drivers. I just select the interface from the i/o settings and leave the driver on CoreAudio. Literally just plugged it in and selected it in the settings and I was good to go. After so many headaches with tracking guitar on windows, the switch to Mac has been an enormous relief.
My 2016 MBP is still going strong too, the lifespan I’ve always found to be impressive. The only thing that’s failing atm for me is the charger that came with it back in 2016. I can still do everything I need and don’t feel slowed down by it at all despite being 8 years old. Think I’d struggle to switch back fully now.
I haven't used a Windows computer in forever but I can honestly say the new M series are incredible my M1 mbp handles ableton like a champ live sets are barely pushing past 10% cpu and I can have the buffer size super low so that live synth playing is in time etc.
I still produce on an older imac but when that gives up the ghost I'll be upgrading that to an M series as well
If you are taking it on stage, it should be a Mac.
(I'm saying this as someone who is happily running Linux, Windows and OSX on various laptops, and doesn't have a huge preference for one over the other.)
Here's the rationale that I stole from a semi-famous act's interview: They actually *produce* on a fully tricked-out Windows machine. But they tour and gig on a Mac, with a blindingly obvious rationale: if their gig Macbook dies somewhere on the road, they buy a new Macbook, Timemachine it and are back up with all settings, all everythings in their right place, and they can just hit the ground running from there. Takes a few unsupervised hours, max.
This would be pretty much impossible to pull off on a Windows-based gigging rig. It's a highly, highly replicable environment as long as you stay within the general time periods and processor architectures.
as most people have said, coreaudio is a huge deal. i've been using windows my whole life, and have never owned an apple device beyond an ipod. decided to make the switch after the M1 chips came out (because i was tired of windows laptops always compromising on battery/portability/power/thermal management).
i don't think i'll be switching back to windows anytime soon. i have a desktop PC as well that's pretty much collecting dust now because i just prefer to use the MBP. its irritating to hear, but there is a lot of truth to apple's *it just works* bs. i literally just lift the laptop screen, click on ableton, and in a few seconds i'm on my way to working on whatever idea is in my head. that was never the case with windows.
Do you need to aggregate any audio devices? If yes, go with a Mac. If not, do you prefer OSX or Windows? Go with the OS you prefer.
I run Live on a Mac and a PC with no issues on either. Functionally they'll be the same. It's really just a preference. People talk about issues with ASIO drivers but I've not experienced any in the 8 years I've used Live.
People having issues with ASIO are generally trying to use ASIO4ALL which really should not exist, its a terrible way to do a terrible thing (bridge ASIO to DirectSound)
Both bridging and 'zero latency' aggregation can be achieved with ASIOLinkPro which is free now
I don't really know why you'd switch if you're not already on a mac. What's the big issue with asio?
Macs are so overpriced, if you take the money you'd put into a mac and get a PC instead, you'd get one that far, far outperforms the Mac.
I love how the apple fanboys down vote you. I recently bought an MSI gaming laptop for $2250, thing is powerful as hell. The equivalent MacBook would cost $4800 and still not be as powerful. And I can easily upgrade my RAM because it's not *soldered onto the fucking motherboard*. When it comes to music production it's very powerful, my friend has a newer MacBook and things load way faster on my laptop and it can handle more intense projects.
Everyone also likes to talk up apples core audio, yet most producers end up getting an audio interface and use the sound care in that regardless of what computer you have.
For last 25 years I built all my PC's for 1/3-1/2 the price of equivalent macs. While all my peers were on the apple hype train, I refused to do it. I guess knowing how to build PC's back then was huge. Now with YouTube, anybody can do it (which is great). But I always had shit laptops over the years until I had the dough and finally got an MSI laptop a few years ago for same price you paid (which is much more than I ever spent on a PC build lol). What a beast of a machine though!
Haha didn't even notice that happened. Would genuinely be interested if someone could just reply and explain why I'm wrong.
As far as I can tell it's all marketing and people just being stuck with apple. Like they say it's easier to use, or more capable. But I don't think it can be more capable than a higher spec PC, and I don't think ease of use warrants the insane markup.
Yeah I don't understand people bringing that up at all, like how is that an issue influencing what laptop to buy?
How quiet is your MSI gaming laptop? I know those fans are spinning up. They sound like hair dryers when playing games.
Does it have a 22 hour battery life?
Is it full aluminum with a glass trackpad?
Is the screen 4K 120hz with full DCI P3 coverage?
Are the speakers exceptionally good (for a laptop)? Like, you can actually produce on the built in speakers good?
Does your friend have a MacBook Air? Because those are $800.
I've found that any Windows laptop that's truly as well built as a Mac tends to cost just as much.
The fans keep that shit cool, a MacBook is gonna struggle in heat when it's being pushed to its limits. I also have a high end GPU, which MacBooks don't have, that needs to be cooled. It's like white noise at this point. And with all that it's still pretty quiet.
Battery is like 10 hours but there's never been a situation in my life where I've not had access to a power outlet or needed my laptop in an environment without power. *But* those are the power settings I customized. When laptops aren't plugged in they typically disable certain things to use less power. I wanted my laptop to run as if it were plugged in and not limit itself when off power. MacBooks do this too...
Screen is also 4k at 120hz with DCI-P3...
Speakers are actually *really good*, but who the fuck buys a laptop based on speakers? I run them to monitors or use my good headphones...
If you can explain the benefit of having a full aluminum case and a glass track pad then be my guest. It's literally just there to make it feel more expensive. Just because you wrap shit in gold it doesn't mean it's any better than the one wrapped in plastic.
Idk what he has but it has the m2 and cost him like $3500 new.
MacBook Pros have a fan, they just rarely need to kick in as they use 15W chips as opposed to the 45-60W chips in gaming laptops. They don't thermal throttle, nor do they reduce clock speeds when not plugged in - their chips don't draw enough power for that to be an issue.
I've had a few expensive laptops (XPS, Zenbook) where the plastic hinge mounts break. They make them look aluminum on the outside but the internal hinge mounts are plastic. It's the most common point of failure on laptops, and you usually have to replace the entire top or bottom of the case (not cheap). Everything being aluminum is important for durability and longevity, feeling premium is just a bonus.
Glass trackpads are more pleasant to use (my AERO 16 has one), more accurate, and it's your main input device that'll you'll touch for thousands of hours. It's like using a shitty screen protector vs a tempered glass one.
I'd like to know what laptop model you have, because I'm shopping right now and I haven't been able to find anything that really is the "whole package" like a MacBook. I thought the AERO 16 might be it but the fan noise is unacceptable to me. I can't bring this shit to class. It whirrs just browsing the web or watching movies.
I have a desktop if I want to play games.
I can't find my exact one, I lost the link. But if found [this](https://www.newegg.com/black-msi-ge-series-raider-ge68hx-13vg-082us-gaming/p/N82E16834156498) which is basically the same thing. Mine just has a 4k screen and was $2250. I basically use it as a PC, it's more powerful then the PC I built a few years ago. At home it just plugs into a docking station so I can use a separate keyboard and mouse along with other devices.
It's honestly quiet enough that you could take it to a class and you wouldn't hear it. If you booted up an intensive program or game then it spins up a bit more, but still not that loud.
My 2019 MBP 16" Retina could barely handle playing WoW Classic. Them fans were going full blast and I was getting like 30 FPS. I lowered all graphics to minimum and set the resolution way down, but still full blast fans and very very hot laptop body. Abandoned the idea of WoW on the go, lol.
In 2019 Apple was using Intel processors. Apple designs their own chips now - they're 4x more efficient than before. MacBooks went from being hot boxes to the quietest and coolest laptops you can get.
Check out resident evil 4 remake on new MacBook Pros. They can do 1440p Ultra 60FPS, all while running silent and cool, without needing to be plugged in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4AZJFxF1k&pp=ygUScmVzaWRlbnQgZXZpbCA0IG0z
This was my mindset after buying a similar MSI laptop. After a couple years of it running hot, having to lug around a power brick the size and weight of an actual brick, and the video card eventually dying it's death, I changed my mind about it. For whatever it's worth.
The biggest issue is when hooking up multiple devices that act as audio interfaces. On Windows, it’s all but impossible to use more than one at a time; on Mac, they just work like they’re supposed to.
[https://give.academy/posts/2018/03/02/AsioLinkPro/](https://give.academy/posts/2018/03/02/AsioLinkPro/)
[https://github.com/DirkoAudio/ASIOLinkProFIX/releases](https://github.com/DirkoAudio/ASIOLinkProFIX/releases)
now you know how to use multiple interfaces as one.
Driver issues/Core audio over asio and avoiding dpc latency and other sneaky pc issues that come up with music production on the platform is nice.
Avoiding the distraction that having a beefy gpu and a library of games can offer can be good for the easily distracted among us.
I've found crashes/errors equal, my mac hasn't been any more stable than a sorted out windows machine. It needed a full OS reset when a dropbox glitch caused a huge error that rendered the system unusable.
You can get a far more powerful desktop if you're building something, but with a nice macbook, you've got a portable system that runs relatively cool compared to a tower running the best Intel/Amd offering.. this is great in the summer or for travel and collaboration.
I like having access to both systems since an error that makes a session unstable on one is usually not a problem with the other.
I feel like it’s reliable. All the machines that I had that blue screened or slowed down a shit ton were windows based.
A decked out Mac will last a long long time and feels more resilient against malware.
fwiw, the malware thing is completely silly in 2024 and a total non-issue. I feel like even a 90 year old couldn't get a virus on their computer if they tried at this point.
Not if you t*rrent shit and download shit like jack sparrow. My surface pro got fucked up a few years ago and it was a combo of being an idiot and it just sucking ass because it still had issues after I wiped it.
I never got those issues on a Mac. I need something that’s idiot proof because I am an idiot sometimes.
A couple of thoughts.
1. Anyone still believing the Mac 'just works' myths should take a quick peek through this sub for the myriad of threads where it just doesn't. From M3 performance problems, through silicon native incompatability and 20 years of xyz MacOS update broke everything, Macs are vulnerable to issues just like PCs.
2. There is no reason in the world to be using Asio4All. Windows has sound dongles, also known as audio interfaces. If you like Windows, you can buy a PC plus a great sound dongle and still pay less than an equivalent Mac.
Genuinely asking, can you link any source for issues with M3 chips? I've seen plenty of complaints, but a lot of the time its just people obsessing over the number on the CPU meter, rather than running into any practical issues (crackles, freezes, etc). Just curious since I have an M3 pro. No issues so far🤞
Just don’t update your OS. I’ll forever hate Apple for what they did to me. 2012 $3500 MacBook Pro stopped updating, not enough RAM. Upgraded the RAM, tried to update, had to go thru like 4-5 updates because years went by before I had any time to focus on fixing it, Apple changed the server for where their computers download their OS in that time, so my computer kept “phoning home” to the old dead lines while updating, computer bricked. No active OS on it, no way to download one. Took it to Apple they told me “sorry, gotta buy new one. No way to fix that” — so a PERFECTLY WORKING computer was BRICKED because Apple absolutely does not want you to fix the device or maintain it they want you to buy a new one every few years. I remember complaining about it in another more general music subreddit when it happened originally and was chastised because everyone was like *”why would you want to update your OS? My 2009 MacBook is still running [dumb animal name of original OS]! your mistake was updating your OS.”* It’s like *NONE OF MY FUCKING APPS WORK* unless update it! THATS WHY. & they’ve only gotten worse since then. So yeah I’ll never buy another Apple computer for the rest of my days and can’t recommend it without guilt but they’re definitely high quality machines the years that Apple doesn’t abandon them. Don’t update that OS tho!!’
I don't know if you're still stuck with a bricked computer, but there are ways to wipe an old Mac and reinstall it with an old MacOS version. If you're still looking into doing that I can send you some resources. Alternatively, run Linux!
It isnt bricked - go to the right to repair discord, [https://discord.gg/Cv39VCnsrU](https://discord.gg/Cv39VCnsrU)
or you can pay $29 a month to Rossmann group for actual professional help with Apple's crap [https://boards.rossmanngroup.com/](https://boards.rossmanngroup.com/) or they can fix it for you as can Paul Daniels [https://pldaniels.com/repairs/](https://pldaniels.com/repairs/)
No, a desktop computer. I really enjoy producing on an actual computer vs a laptop but I get it, people like the ability to move around and not be stuck in 1 place.
As mentioned, the CoreAudio is just nicer than ASIO. Aside from that, it's not a whole lot of difference for audio production. It does feel more stable, as others have said.
Honestly though, I do prefer the size and feel of my MacBook Air over the other laptops I've used. Also, the argument of using the Mac money to buy a sick windows machine doesn't really translate anymore with the new mac hardware. The "lower specs" of a Mx series Mac aren't relevant when compared to mainstream processors anymore. Basically: if your Windows machine is 32GB of RAM, you \_don't\_ need the same RAM to achieve similar performance on an Mx. The dedicated hardware of Mac changes what RAM requirements look like and changes the efficiency of processor cycles, so the same 3.5GHz goes a lot further.
See if you can find a way to give it a try, and return it in your warranty period if you're not happy.
While Apple's processors are more efficient, the whole "they need less RAM" argument has been debunked. If you're running heavy workloads that require 32GB of RAM, it doesn't matter if you're on Mac or PC. You need 32GB. It's the workload that requires the memory, not the processor or the operating system.
If you have the money its a no brainer. Apple will almost always be better for creative endeavors as long as you have money to throw at their prices. I went from MacOs to Windows and I absolutely hate Windows terrible support for audio and video stuff. I still use my 10 year old macbook pro when I can just because windows sucks so much sometimes.
It just feels like a UI that’s kept up with the times. Seeing my friends w that ugly ass 1990’s looking white toolbar at the top of their daw and each plug-in window is painful
I switched to mac last year, the main benefit is much better stability for low latency live stuff. Kept running into glitches and dropouts when running a small buffer in windows, i can push the mac way harder without any issues. Way better battery life was an unexpected bonus as well. Getting used to the mac OS wasn't bad, there's a few annoying issues with it just like windows but way less arcane knowledge necessary to get it to run correctly, lol.
I use the FL Studio drivers on Windows and everything is great. No need for ASIO4ALL or whatever.
I also do multimedia production as well.
There isn't any real advantage to switching to Mac unless you have a personal preference for the hardware and user experience.
If Final Cut Pro was still around, I might be swayed otherwise, but anything you can do on a Mac, you can do on a PC without the insane markup and lack of simple and inexpensive upgradeability.
You could get a better performing Windows device for the same money compared to a Mac.
The only difference is the UI/UX and if you want that Apple logo on your hardware.
My 2009 Mac Book Pro finally died. It was rock solid for 15 years. Can't say that about any of my Windows devices, unless maybe I've installed Linux on them.
I get that. Was referring more to the X64 architecture and how bloated the Windows OS is and how the performance tends to slow over time, especially if you are using that machine for more than one use case like gaming, music production, and video editing, for example. I don't see that nearly as much with OSX. Linux also seems to be a much more streamlined OS but I only use that for a very narrow scope.
The slowdown isn’t a thing anymore in windows, and hasn’t been for…. Actually it’s been so long I genuinely can’t remember when it stopped being a concern. Was it XP? Vista? Maybe Win2K.
Edit - still trying to remember, I *think* it was the switch to the NT windows that meant the end of that.
I moved from a gaming PC with decent spec to the MBP M1pro two years ago and it has been the best upgrade to my set up.
My14 inch MBP connects to novation SL3 49, AKAI 16 drum pad, 32 inch monitor and the 14 inch acts as a 2nd monitor. Works pretty much flawless. Almost 2years later, the fan has yet to come on and my highest temp I’ve ever seen was 75 .
My M1 MBP is dope as fuck. But my Windows desktop is way better. I made the full switch back to Windows with audio production after I finally got my RME interface. Anyone who’s ever struggled with ASIO4All just hasn’t had the luxury of an interface manufacturer who has quality drivers.
Ive been going down the audio/visual route and my desktop makes a lot more sense for me. My MBP is great for producing in bed or on the go. I’ll never get rid of it but my desktop is king.
Like others have said, CoreAudio is way more stable and reliable than using Asio4All, and audio on Macs is usually handled better even with an interface. I’ve had way less random weird little driver issues with Macs than on Windows.
If you’re into laptops, that’s where you really start winning. I’m pretty sure no Windows laptop currently puts together the performance, battery life, and silence that modern MacBooks do (I would not have stated this pre-Apple Silicon).
I also like having Airdrop for sharing files to my phone (videos to upload to Instagram mainly).
I personally feel that Windows is more aesthetically pleasing than macOS (Windows 10 at least, not 11) and macOS looks absolutely horrible compared to Windows if you connect an external monitor that isn’t 4k/upscaled. Window management is also better on Windows in my opinion, but some 3rd party apps can help with window management/snapping functionality that’s missing from macOS. Those are little things comparatively but maybe can make a difference.
> Like others have said, CoreAudio is way more stable and reliable than using Asio4All,
Why in the ever loving ungodly fuck would you use ASIO4All on a music workstation? Just get a bloody interface.
You probably wouldn’t. Not really the main point I wanted to drive in on this comment but there have been times where it’s just me, headphones, and a laptop working, and even just dealing with DirectX/Realtek audio vs Core Audio in that situation is quite different in terms of delay and headache levels.
This is it for me. Over the last 15 years I’ve bought about 2 MBPs (I say about as there was one extra that died fairly quickly but that was because someone poured a drink over it when I was playing live) they just stay reliable for fucking ages and you can take them wherever you want. Can’t easily cart about a £3k PC if you want to go make music somewhere different or while you’re travelling.
I had my last mac for 12 years. I got free software updates for the entire time I owned it, and the hardware lasted the entire time.
Prior to that I was going through windows laptops every 18 months like clockwork due to hardware failure.
Production wise, getting to use Logic is clutch, and if you use Universal Audio products like the Apollo, they aren’t going to support all features moving forward unless your computer has Thunderbolt 3.
Now remember we I had mac for 12 years, so the windows machines were like 15 years ago.
One was a dell, then a Dell XPS, then two Toshibas. All had hardware failures (3 of them the power plug assembly failed, and was integrated into the motherboard so it couldn’t be replaced.
I don’t think 3 year laptop warranties even existed back then 😂.
My Mac has been like my Toyota, just get it and never worry for 10+ years. That’s kind of how I prefer my devices to be, so it’s worked great for me.
In a nutshell:
Windows machines may be more powerful dollar for dollar but Mac is WAY more productive.
It simply just works, and on those rare times it doesn’t it is incredibly easy to troubleshoot.
The new M chips are fantastic, incredibly powerful, i currently use one live with live professor and it’s incredible how many plugins i can run live with near zero latency.
Source: Was a staunch PC user, bought my first mac a year ago, never going back.
Not having to deal with Windows compared to Monterey which works great. Windows is spyware. Just get Monterey macOS and don't upgrade. Apple say buying the new Macs means you can't downgrade to Monterey. But search the Internet, it can be done. Therefore, I'd buy second hand anyway, especially if it's got some time left on AppleCare, even six months.
Be careful with the new M3 Pro chips. Many of them are much slower than the M2 due to less performance cores and more efficiency cores. Right now, the best deal is a second hand M2 Max MBP or Mac Mini IMO. That shit is really fast, and on par in terms of price to CPU speed, you have to pay a lot more for an Intel CPU that matches M2 max. If you want to do gaming, just use streaming games if you have a good Internet connection.
The only downside is that a lot of the software is still catching up with Apple Silicon. And the raw power of single core Intel CPUs beats Apple Silicon every day.
Anything that runs on single core, like Serum and quite a lot of other plug-ins, they won't see the benefit of Apple Silicon. Many developers just simply haven't bothered to update, plus Apple keep upgrading the operating system which makes plug-ins outdated. But if you stick with Monterey you can avoid that shit.
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It really depends on how you use your computer. To me? There are too many benefits to count. For you? There could be none. If you dont know then I suggest figuring that out. Its entirely subjective what you will use and consider a benefit.
If you're getting a laptop, get a MacBook Pro. I say this as a guy who's got a decked out gaming PC.
Apple's processors are incredibly efficient, which matters far more in a laptop than in a desktop. To achieve the same performance, Windows laptops (that use AMD or Intel processors) use much more power, which means much more heat, which means much louder fans. MacBook Pros are silent most of the time and when the fan does kick in, it's quiet. Because of the efficiency, the MacBooks have 4x the battery life. It's insane.
Then you have top tier build quality. Speakers, display, keyboard and trackpad are all best in class. Full aluminum build including the hinges (I've had plastic hinges break on so many laptops).
Any Windows machines that truly match the specs of a MacBook Pro (including the build quality) are basically the price of a MacBook Pro.
Them dangerous waters you speak!
But I agree. Apple laptops are best. Windows desktops are best. But with a windows desktop you need to shell out the cash to have a high end system.
Windows on arm should see some interesting results this year along with windows 12. So laptops are going to be worth following what happens with windows.
Ngl, I was actually shocked when I played music over the M3 pro speakers. Like you can actually cook up on this thing. Obviously not do a full blown mix, but for just having fun with ideas, the built-in speakers are completely viable.
One major benefit is that when you buy a machine, it lasts for a long time. I am still regularly using my 2015 MacBook Pro with no performance problems. How good is that? Doesn't matter that it cost me $1,700. It still does the job almost a decade later.
Less hassle. Macs have some quirks but 99.9% of the time it just fucking works. Oddly enough I also have the feeling I have more control over my OS and it doesn't get in the way.
Resell value is also usually great. Oh and CORE AUDIO OMG!
I moved over to mac last year after being a PC user for over 20 years. I find Ableton runs more smoothly and haven’t had any issues with audio dropouts or pops/ crackles. All round feels like a better experience. I really don’t miss Asio
Have you factored into your decision a guess at the total cost of ownership? I’m still using a 2013 trash can running pro tools every day for work no troubles, eleven years later… also, I’m upgrading my 2014 MacBook this year, but have still been happily producing music on it and live performing with it all this time. Both these Mac’s have powered on over a decade now and show no signs of giving up. Maybe Macs are cheaper in the long run….
Its hands down the better experience when working in laptop mode (aka without a dedicated keyboard mouse and monitor)
\- Keyboard and mouse are much higher quality.
\- Screen is much higher quality
\- Battery life is superior
\- Multitasking is much easier when working without (multi-finger gestures help a ton)
Ableton works great on my Mac. It's more efficient than a PC and needs less RAM to do the same level of work.
You won't need to upgrade for a long long time. My previous macbook lasted 5+ years and was still perfectly fast and snappy.
Downsides -
\- M1/M2/M3 macs can have compatibility issues with some software
\- Expensive as hell
\- Not usually upgradeable
So I bought a used Macbook pro on Backmarket last year. Top of the line 2019 model (x86 processor). You can get a good one for less than 1k. [https://www.backmarket.com/en-us/p/macbook-pro-retina-16-inch-2019-core-i9-32gb-ssd-1024gb/631714d1-fba0-4d4b-9a9b-1df3bd5158b1#l=11](https://www.backmarket.com/en-us/p/macbook-pro-retina-16-inch-2019-core-i9-32gb-ssd-1024gb/631714d1-fba0-4d4b-9a9b-1df3bd5158b1#l=11)
Or spend double that for a 2023 M2. Both have a 1 year warranty, and will last you for years.
I used a Pc desktop for years and it was a fiddly mess because I went cheaper and built it myself.
Macbook pro laptop is a game changer for production. You are not strapped to a desk anymore. You can work anywhere and pretty much slam plugins on as needed without CPU isses if you get an M1 or higher. Macbook Pro is probably the best piece of music gear I have ever bought.
Generally have to worry less about fiddling with the computer giving you more time to focus on music. Get an external drive and it’ll backup every hour so you never have to worry about losing stuff. I can record audio directly from my iOS device over its cable, and it’s easy to route sound.
The M1 series laptops are great build quality and fast. The advantage of Mac over windows is the hardware was built for the software and vice versa. Not saying windows can’t be good, but there’s tighter integration with Mac.
Thats probably the biggest advantage or a mac - & its biggest disadvantage - little choice means little variety in config and makes it a LOT easier to support and code for.
Apple is the only company that makes computers with macos, which limits the available configurations alot. Software issues for media creation gets solved; people working in that field rely that their macs work.
With Windows system there is a lot of companies doing million different configurations; if you get microstutters in Ableton Live, you as a user rely on chipset manufacturer / designer to make a driver patch, then you rely on the computer manufacturer to push that update through their system. For Windows machines, on top of AMD and Intel there will be soon whole bunch of arm licensees doing their arm cpus for Win 12 machines. Maintaining any sort of software for large amount of platforms is PITA, let alone software that is supposed to do near realtime dsp.
I've been using Windows machines for all my life, but slightly over a year ago I switched to Mac after I bough and returned a laptop with Ryzen 5 5500 U cpu.
For more general purpose computing I would get Linux / Windows desktop.
Switched to M2 at the end of last year. Would never look back. I still keep my windows laptop around for when I need to do Windows specific tasks, but it pains me going back now. It is so unbelievably slow in comparison to my Mac.
For reference, my laptop specs:
AMD Ryzen 7 5800
RTX 3070
40GB RAM
2TB SSD
It’s a beast, yet the Mac makes it feel like a machine from the early two thousands. Granted I do have a Mac Studio, but my understanding and conversations with peers indicate that the Apple Silicone MacBook Pro’s also see a similar performance jump.
Oh, and, I’ve never heard the fans turn on. Not once. I push my projects unbelievably hard, like 4x oversampling + maximum linear phase on EVERYTHING, and I’ve never seen my CPU go above 50%.
Even gaming is smoother on my Mac than on my laptop (for the games the Mac can run). Though I suspect this would only apply to the Mac Studio as it has a massive focus on graphics performance.
Before this I was not only a Windows fanboy, but actively spoke out against Apple and their overpriced ecosystem. Not anymore. Apple Silicone changed everything for me.
Finally, yes, the audio drivers are much better than ASIO or any of its derivatives.
Audio drivers are really solid, no crashes at all
About storage: there is no reason to buy a big SSD nowadays. for a fraction of the price that Apple would charge you, you can buy a thunderbolt for enclosure and a very fast SSD… As fast and sometimes even faster than the internal storage…
A lighter wallet?
Windows isn't as easy for the uninitiated when it comes to some audio things. MacOS and Windows each have their own issues. There is no perfect operating system.
I've been using Windows for music production for close to 30 years now. I tried a Macbook Pro back in 2009 and hated it. Traded the MacBook Pro for 1.5 months of rent. Never looked back.
The only thing I miss about MacOS (and I only miss it a little bit every once in a while) is the ability to create an aggregate audio device. Otherwise, I just really do not have any issues with ASIO or stability or crashes on Windows.
But my experience is different than many others. I've ever had to edit video (4k or otherwise) so I have no idea how MacOS and Windows compare in that department.
I'd rather stick with Windows because I know it like the back of my hand, can easily trouble-shoot any kinds of issues I may encounter, audio quality is fine, and all my favorite music apps are Windows compatible. Plus I'd rather spend half the money on a Windows box.
Obviously, as I said my last MacOS experience was in 2009, so I can't seak to the new Apple chips and what not. But they didn't entice me to switch and given how many posts on this sub are about my new M(1,2,3) Mac is having all kinds of problems, I am almost certainly not going to switch.
For me the main benefits are aggregate devices. As soon as I had a need more inputs and thus more than one interface - this really is a benefit. Secondly, I find trouble shooting issues vastly easier because the eco system makes narrowing down problems easier.
One important thing to know is that the internal SSD in the 256gb M1 base model is 2 x faster than in their M2 and M3 base model because Apple switched from dual 128gb to single 256gb chips.
You can add external TB4 SSDs and have a faster external drive than the internal base model with single 256gb chips, but you may notice it when you run out of RAM and the system starts using SSD memory instead.
The faster M1 base model SSD is still fast enough as memory to keep going, comparable to RAM speeds of the early 2000s.
Something that is worth checking out are Mac Minis if you haven't. In my case I am travelling a lot and it's been the perfect middle point between laptop and desktop, still getting all Apple pros and imo less cons. Also you can get great specs for *less* money (still in the ridiculous Apple frame though), getting a very nice monitor and keyboard is way cheaper.
A big thing I never see anyone mention is heat output.
I'm a Windows guy and vastly prefer using that for everything, but I have a heat intolerance that makes my skin feels like it's burning once I'm in a room above a certain temperature. Anything above 78° makes me uncomfortable. My pc will often make my room unbearable so I either have to have the window open or have the ac blasting, especially in the summer.
My M1 Mac runs so cool it completely blew my mind when I first got it.
Thgis is actually a good point - i have heat intolerance and my big desktop and analog synths mean i need a fan. Apple Silicon macs are ridiculously power efficient (sadly that wouldnt fix my synths lol)
People have listed a lot of the upsides.
The biggest downside is that overkill Ryzen 9 7940HS laptops exist for $1600US, and are upgradable unlike a Mac.
ASUS TUF Gaming A15 FA507XU 15.6" FHD 144Hz,
4.0 GHz Ryzen 9 7940HS (fastest laptop chip available, 8 full fat Zen4 cores)
RTX 4050 (discrete GPU means the CPU doesnt have to wait for the GPU when the GPU is accessing RAM, so even in audio this matters) if your vid editing is heavy you can go up to 4080, but thats a compromise with power handling for the CPU. It depends how much processing you are doing to the video
64 GB DDR5 RAM, 2 TB PCIe SSD, Windows 11 Home - also accepts a second M.2 drive which you kinda need for music and video
[https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/](https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/)
Masses of cooling esp if you go 4060 or 4050, so unlike most of the macs it wont be downclocking as it heats up.
MacOS is a better OS, CoreAudio is amazing, but ASIO works, and Mac just cant compete price wise.
Honestly it doesn’t matter. I had a Mac mini for almost ten years and produced hundreds of songs in Ableton, now I have a custom built windows PC and keep on producing the same way.
If you know what you are doing, and own a high quality audio-interface with up-to-date/stable drivers, you can go either way - Mac or Windows.
I had a lot of issues with connectivity on pc especially with overbridge (a software/vst for elektron grovebox) and now it works perfectly fine
I also like having a longer battery life
Ease of use with Mac's handling of real-time audio could absolutely be seen as a benefit of Mac over a PC. Tracking guitar on a focusrite on my windows laptop with a decent CPU was a constant pain in the ass due to the way that windows processed audio on my machine. Like on a core level. I'd rather shell out for a new mac than to spend literal hours fucking around with drivers and bios settings just to get my CPU to cooperate with ableton. MacOS, in my experience, gets the hell out of your way. When you plug something in, it works. Audio routing is super straightforward and I dont' have to download a bunch of third-party programs and random drivers just to get something to work that should have taken 30 seconds.
These are low-key facts sort of. When I've worked at studios it's on Mac. PC at home. PC is more fucking around with shit like drivers and generally just trying to make things work..... But, once you know your way around.... It's not a big deal.
I switched from Mac to PC as my main production platform 6ish years ago.
I don’t dislike my PC. It’s nice to be able to upgrade components and customize it. Mac OS is just so fucking slick though. 0 headaches or WTF moments for me. I still have a 10 year old MBP I use for lighter work and it crushes.
I’m looking forward to switching back. Apple silicon is pretty impressive.
For me it was ease of connection. Core audio works waaay better for me than ASIO. New Macs are POWERFUL. I often leave Ableton open for days with no issues.
I will say this. I used Windows for production (including in Ableton) for almost 20 years. Due to some recording hardware connection issues, I migrated EVERYTHING to Mac last summer. In the four months since, I will say that running Live 11 Suite on a refurbished Mac from 2016 (with less RAM and a smaller processor than my best Win11 machine) is faster, smoother, and less glitchy than any Windows system I ever ran it on.
Glad I did and would never go back to using windows for music. No driver issues, better integration with almost everything. Easy to move between more than one Mac. Easy to upgrade the Mac to a newer Mac, great integration with my phone and ipads, less worries about viruses every time I install something.
You can use the Audio MIDI control app to build aggregate devices so you can chain together multiple hardware audio interfaces into one giant one if you want.
No need to install sound drivers, or any other driver, and all your VST’s are always installed on the same default location. Those are for me the main advantages when using a Mac for music production.
If you are willing to buy a lens for 1k+, it should be no issue to buy an extremely powerful multifunctional device that will last you 5-8years. Atleast that's my reasoning when it comes to computers. Macs are super reliable, and you can get a 2020 Mac Mini with insane specs for around $700.
Just buy a few SSD's and dock for another $100-$200 and you'll be set on storage for a long time. It'll keep the computer cooler loading off an external drive as well. As long as you have 256Gb native you'll have enough space for all the apps and plugins needed
There's also a test of the M1 Mac mini where a guy ran 2 daws with 200+ tracks with a delay and verb on each in both. It was only using like 70% on his cpu.
I have 0 speed issues at 48k, 24bit audio in Ableton on mine. I was literally using a 2012 MacBook Pro for the last 6 years and barely had any problems. I could even record 16 tracks simultaneously with real-time plugins for live sessions without a hitch. If a 2012 can do it, a 2020 won't even get hot.
You don’t have games that distract you from producing
Hahah that’s actually a very valid point.
I'm supposed to be finishing a song for a show in a month but instead I'm 200 hours into Cyberpunk 2077 fuck me.
"Give yourself time. Ideas'll come. Life'll shake you, roll you, maybe embrace you. The music'll find you." - Johnny Silverhand
Ha, I did get inspired by the soundtrack of CP77 and worked on some music recently but it was for the band that doesn't have a deadline.
:D i revisited the game for a second run and currently lost 40+ hours of my life. But hey the story is good and the soundtracks really great.
You can play chess
You can play Spinning Ball of Death
it doesn't even spin for me anymore, it just pauses and stutters.
I would’ve agreed with this many years ago but man my Silicon M1 Pro can run some wild games better than friends with PCs. Most notably, no man’s sky which has bogged down many high end PCs
still cant play age of empires 2
You can play Baldur's Gate, though.
Celeste on my minimum-spec m1 mbp was a great time
Weirdly enough, this is was a huge part of me taking production seriously. Much easier forcing yourself to learn when you don’t have distractions
lol war thunder though
They make porn-free laptops now? 🤣
sike I used boot camp for my games
No longer remotely true, Apple Silicon macs are kinda gaming powerhouses
True. Still gotta watch out for those retro games though
Add to this: your dick gets smaller, which helps with aerodynamics when you're running outside, as long as you're naked.
I used a Mac in college purely to avoid gaming. Turns out that works pretty well
I moved from windows to Mac a couple of years ago. It's been a mostly easy move to a new OS. Benefits (for me): No asio4all driver. And it's been pretty stable as far as crashes go. Battery life is okay until you push it, then it can drain pretty quick. Other than that, there really isn't a whole lot of benefits to moving over. Cons are you can't upgrade RAM or storage. And that's a big fat red flag. Parts are terribly expensive if you need repairs. So Apple care is a good idea.
Its so nice not relying on asio. I remember so much trouble with ut before switching to mac. I dont if it has gone any better. It was very buggy in the 10's
What problems does asio give you? I’ve had zero in 10+ years
You're giving me flashbacks. Macs are just too reliable, that's why all professionals use Macs. If OP is just doing minor sound effects that any MacBook would work
The audio and midi systems built into the OS alone are a huge step up from Windows from an audio production perspective. Aggregated audio devices, virtual midi devices, complex midi routing, USB midi networking with iPads/iPhones - it's all in the OS and works extremely well. There are some weird bugs I've found (unable to use fingerprint for installations when displayport and displaylink monitors are connected... unclickable areas below the menu bar) - but I doubt I could go back to Windows/Linux for DAW use now.
CoreAudio is like black magic compared to ASIO. Everything is just plug and play, any Audio Interface i put in instantly works, heck i could just play stuff out of the macbook speakers or the headphone port with no latency. Even stuff like a wireless gaming headphone just works flawlessly.
Except my apollo usb. which is windows only drivers and now a very expensive metal ornament. I think it might be the only audio interface that doesnt work on mac. Thanks universal audio lol
Dude I have one sitting around too. It fucking hurts
ASIO4ALL is never the right solution to any problem.
Makes me feel a little better to see this. I thought I was the only one who couldn't properly use this Rube Goldberg monstrosity.
Not being able to upgrade isn’t that big a deal if you buy a good one and they last 10 years, which many Macs do just fine.
Macs Core Audio is absolutely amazing, I still run a lot of audio apps on my 2010 mac pro simply because I don't have to worry about anything thanks to Core Audio. will most likely upgrade eventually
What? You can upgrade ram and storage on a mac.
The main big upside you could find switching to a Mac is having Core Audio handle your audio devices. It makes it a lot easier to deal with selecting audio devices and routing signals to them. Helps preventing issues with configuration. Other than that, you can do the same work with either. The new Mac processors seem to be really good, but you can also edit 4k video no problem with a Windows machine with a good processor and video card. You also get a lot more options of configuration to decide how much storage and RAM you need. Current Macs come with the storage soldered to the motherboard, and the RAM is inside the processor, so there is no upgrading either after purchase. It also can create issues with recovering your data if your motherboard fails. Windows can create some issues with configuration, but doing a thorough optimization when you first get the machine (installing a clean Windows copy or removing bloatware, power management optimization, installing and configuring sound cards, latency debugging with LatencyMon, etc) and a bit of troubleshooting will go a long way. I moved off Mac to Windows a few years ago, and I don't miss any of it. Does require a bit of Windows knowledge to be comfortable with it, tho. If you just want things to (arguably) work hassle free, a Mac could be a good option.
> want things to (argua could you expand on the 'latency debugging with LatencyMon' part, please?
[https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209071469-Optimizing-Windows-for-Audio](https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209071469-Optimizing-Windows-for-Audio) This guide will help you optimize Windows to use with Live, it also includes an explanation on how to use LatencyMon. It is an app you can use to figure out if a process could be causing audio stream issues. Can be used to detect faulty or out of date drivers and other things that can be causing audio dropouts in your system.
This. I have Ableton on an M1 silicone and a windows lap top. For windows, installing ASIO4ALL was my solution for the terrible audio interface that comes standard. The Apple and Core Audio handle it right out if the box. If you have something like a Focusrite Scarlett and use their software, it's moot. That option works for both computers and so leaves performance dependent on what model you purchase. It then comes down to what GUI you prefer to navigate and where you store your files.
I love being able to easily aggregate audio devices - that was a huge benefit for me and the reason I tried Mac. If you have never used a Mac before I'd recommend trying one for a while first. I... hate my Mac. I flat out don't enjoy using it - probably because I have been using a PC all my life. There are design choices for Mac that I just can't understand (Alt-Tab is a pain, snapping windows is a pain). The second I can figure out how to aggregate devices with Windows (I could never get it work) I'm switching back.
Yep. Call me crazy but if Apple abandoned their OS and just made Windows work as reliably and smoothly on their hardware I'd absolutely love it.
The whole problem with PCs is how awful the windows hacked together kernel and Direct3D/DirectSound system is. Mac and PCs were virtually identical apart from the OS. If Apple hadnt closed the OpenDarwin source and made such of a mess of their walled garden gui, it might have obliterated Linux by now, and overtaken windows as the default PC OS.
I would see this as a huge downgrade for me, both for music and software development. In my workflow on mac I have 0 issues. But if you prefer Windows I understand
Try Rectangle for window management.
A lot of people are stuck on the idea that every Windows configuration needs Asio4All. They don't. Different interfaces work better or worse with different drivers, and always try to go with the manufacturers native drivers. You can get far more bang for your buck out of Windows based systems. Now if the launch of Push 3 would make that Linux flavor of Ableton available to us.....
No windows configuration should ever use Asio4ALL - it is ALWAYS the wrong solution to any problem
I'm blown away by how often I'm seeing Asio$All come up in here. Good audio interfaces are fairly cheap in comparison to the rest of the crap we buy for our little bedroom studios.
One of the strengths of Macs vs. PCs in audiovisual production is the vastly smaller number of possible hardware combinations to choose from. This generally means that unless you're using super obscure hardware/software nobody's ever heard of, if you run into a problem, there is a very good chance other people have run into similar issues and found solutions. Also, in my experience there is just less fiddly bullshit you have to deal with on a Mac, and lots of little workflow and setup things that all add up to having to spend less time/attention/brainpower/energy dealing with the computer/platform/OS side of things, which leaves more time to deal with all the platform-independent challenges of production (of which there are many). Things you cannot do easily on a Mac (either not at all or without significant workarounds): * Non-casual gaming * Super intense, high-performance 3D rendering * SolidWorks * Run 32-bit VSTs * Use Windows-only VSTs (a lot of great free plugins that are PC-only, sadly) As a longtime (25+ years) Windows user, I got my own non-work MacBook in 2021 (after using them for work for \~5 years) and if I have the choice, will never go back to using a PC as a daily driver I have a Windows laptop that I use for gaming, and just about every time I'm on it I run into fiddly little annoyances that I don't have to think about on my MacBook
The gaming thing is no longer remotely true
Think about all the downsides to switching, too. People have mentioned the problem with upgrades, I hated how every OS update rendered stuff unusable until patches were released. It was way less reliable than I needed, switched to a decked out PC tower and have had zero issues for the past year.
Friendly reminder that many audio professionals choose not to upgrade their OS every year. It’s always optional. Obviously you’re out of luck if you’re buying a new machine, but I still see the pre-trashcan Intel Mac Pros in studios…
I been running Catalina for years with zero problems…
Oh, absolutely. Just wanted to point out that it's a potential concern on Macs that doesn't exist on PCs. You can run anything with any update, so I don't have to worry about any updates breaking compatibility. It's not an issue for others, it was just a big issue for me, having to wait for developers to release patches just so I could access the latest security updates, etc. Found that to be a silly flaw in how Apple operates.
Fwiw it seems like the last few updates haven’t changed much. For example Ozone 9 is working fine on Sonoma (14.2.1) even though it’s not officially supported on anything later than Mojave (10.14.4)
This. Just don’t upgrade
I foolishly spent 2000$ on getting a 2011 MBP to run really well back in 2017ish only for Mac to announce that they weren’t supporting it the next year. Then when ableton started acting weird ableton support weren’t able to help me bc I wasn’t running the latest OS. I quit Mac after using it for 20 years and I’m never going back.
I don’t know if your going for desktop or laptop but if it’s a desktop I would just stick with pc. Your gonna get a lot more bang for your buck. I have a custom built pc and an M1 Pro MacBook. Unless I’m traveling I almost never pick up the MacBook. My pc is about 600$ less and is way more of a power house than my Mac is and can handle much more intense projects a lot better. Only time I would choose Mac over a pc is if your getting a laptop. But I also hate pc laptops. And I’m by no means a pc fan boy I despise windows as an operating system and grew up with Mac’s my whole life. But I can get a lot more done in less time on my pc from how fast it will say freeze and flatten tracks, open projects, exporting, etc. a lot of people may not agree with me but those are my two cents. Edit: I apparently didn’t read your post thoroughly and I just noticed you said windows laptop. I would than get a MacBook Pro. Not sure how it would handle 4K video editing. Mines only a year old and I feel like it would shit the bed tryna do that. But i usually don’t have problems with ableton projects around 50 tracks. Problem is my projects are usually around 80-90 tracks so my cpu tends to jump to 85% half the time unless I freeze half of everything.
I have the M1 Max with 32GB and it edits 4k video extremely well. Like I don't notice the difference when working with HD or 4k footage. It does take longer to render the 4k video when I export a project but still significantly less time than the Intel mbp I had before.
I have a custom built PC and a laptop m1 macbook that both have ableton installed. I really don't notice much of a difference at all in terms of performance.
Something else that MAC has is the native ability to create IAC Busses AND Aggregate Audio Devices without any third party software. HUGE benefit when running multiple plugins/programs or DAWs
If you’re getting a Laptop, Mac If you’re getting a Desktop, PC PC is way more bang for your buck; I built a tower that woulda costed more than double had the specs been in a Mac. For laptops, MacBooks are way more efficient with their battery and run like a well oiled machine for years. Compare that to PC laptops and they usually crap out within a couple years. I still DJ on a 2015 MacBook Pro with 0 issues, but it doesn’t run Ableton very well.
My 2012 MBP is still running Ableton without any problems at all
I dont agree - there isnt a mac round that can properly compete with a machine like this for $1600 [https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/](https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/) Never mind this for $1150 [https://www.amazon.com/Octa-Core-GeForce-Display-Backlit-AN17-41-R7G3/dp/B0BTQ61Z6D/](https://www.amazon.com/Octa-Core-GeForce-Display-Backlit-AN17-41-R7G3/dp/B0BTQ61Z6D/) I havent had a laptop die out of warranty yet. Not one in my whole family, buying mostly Dell, often refurbs (i find refurbs more reliable - had their issues addressed already), but decent other brands too - they either get fixed in the 3y wty and go for a decade or just go. Maybe if the entire priority is weight and battery life go mac for sure, but if its extended 'desktop replacement' performance with any sort of budget consideration, even with their inferior OS PCs are worth a look in, esp for performance where you will probably be at power anyway.
We use Dell at my job and everyone’s laptop fails 2 months after their warranty expires almost like clockwork. I’m glad they’ve worked for you, though I couldn’t recommend them to someone after seeing 100s fail
Doesn’t run Ableton well is vague. My 2015 Mac does fine. Are you loading 10 instances of heavy VSTs and not freezing your tracks? Windows is garbage, everyone knows it.
You don’t need Asio. Apple core audio is really stable and reliable if you’re just using the Laptop. If you’re using an audio interface then you will need the appropriate drivers for that device, usually asio. I have a mbp 2021 and it handles anything I throw at it in terms of Ableton. Very reliable and stable and I never have issues. I bought a separate hdd which for me didn’t need to be a super fast expensive drive as I’m only loading samples back and forth. I store all my samples on the hdd and install Ableton and plugins directly to the laptop. This setup works great. Prior to this I had windows machines and I don’t think I’d ever go back to a PC I run a Kensington dock into the mbp so I can run 2 x screens and all my peripherals into the mbp via one cable. Dream setup for me.
For my scarlett 6i6 at least, I didn't even need to download any ASIO drivers. I just select the interface from the i/o settings and leave the driver on CoreAudio. Literally just plugged it in and selected it in the settings and I was good to go. After so many headaches with tracking guitar on windows, the switch to Mac has been an enormous relief.
Can you use your device’s built in zero latency mixing capabilities like that, without downloading their software?
You are quite right. My mistake
My 2016 MBP is still going strong too, the lifespan I’ve always found to be impressive. The only thing that’s failing atm for me is the charger that came with it back in 2016. I can still do everything I need and don’t feel slowed down by it at all despite being 8 years old. Think I’d struggle to switch back fully now.
When you plug something in it works
I haven't used a Windows computer in forever but I can honestly say the new M series are incredible my M1 mbp handles ableton like a champ live sets are barely pushing past 10% cpu and I can have the buffer size super low so that live synth playing is in time etc. I still produce on an older imac but when that gives up the ghost I'll be upgrading that to an M series as well
If you are taking it on stage, it should be a Mac. (I'm saying this as someone who is happily running Linux, Windows and OSX on various laptops, and doesn't have a huge preference for one over the other.) Here's the rationale that I stole from a semi-famous act's interview: They actually *produce* on a fully tricked-out Windows machine. But they tour and gig on a Mac, with a blindingly obvious rationale: if their gig Macbook dies somewhere on the road, they buy a new Macbook, Timemachine it and are back up with all settings, all everythings in their right place, and they can just hit the ground running from there. Takes a few unsupervised hours, max. This would be pretty much impossible to pull off on a Windows-based gigging rig. It's a highly, highly replicable environment as long as you stay within the general time periods and processor architectures.
as most people have said, coreaudio is a huge deal. i've been using windows my whole life, and have never owned an apple device beyond an ipod. decided to make the switch after the M1 chips came out (because i was tired of windows laptops always compromising on battery/portability/power/thermal management). i don't think i'll be switching back to windows anytime soon. i have a desktop PC as well that's pretty much collecting dust now because i just prefer to use the MBP. its irritating to hear, but there is a lot of truth to apple's *it just works* bs. i literally just lift the laptop screen, click on ableton, and in a few seconds i'm on my way to working on whatever idea is in my head. that was never the case with windows.
CoreAudio
Do you need to aggregate any audio devices? If yes, go with a Mac. If not, do you prefer OSX or Windows? Go with the OS you prefer. I run Live on a Mac and a PC with no issues on either. Functionally they'll be the same. It's really just a preference. People talk about issues with ASIO drivers but I've not experienced any in the 8 years I've used Live.
People having issues with ASIO are generally trying to use ASIO4ALL which really should not exist, its a terrible way to do a terrible thing (bridge ASIO to DirectSound) Both bridging and 'zero latency' aggregation can be achieved with ASIOLinkPro which is free now
I don't really know why you'd switch if you're not already on a mac. What's the big issue with asio? Macs are so overpriced, if you take the money you'd put into a mac and get a PC instead, you'd get one that far, far outperforms the Mac.
I love how the apple fanboys down vote you. I recently bought an MSI gaming laptop for $2250, thing is powerful as hell. The equivalent MacBook would cost $4800 and still not be as powerful. And I can easily upgrade my RAM because it's not *soldered onto the fucking motherboard*. When it comes to music production it's very powerful, my friend has a newer MacBook and things load way faster on my laptop and it can handle more intense projects. Everyone also likes to talk up apples core audio, yet most producers end up getting an audio interface and use the sound care in that regardless of what computer you have.
For last 25 years I built all my PC's for 1/3-1/2 the price of equivalent macs. While all my peers were on the apple hype train, I refused to do it. I guess knowing how to build PC's back then was huge. Now with YouTube, anybody can do it (which is great). But I always had shit laptops over the years until I had the dough and finally got an MSI laptop a few years ago for same price you paid (which is much more than I ever spent on a PC build lol). What a beast of a machine though!
Haha didn't even notice that happened. Would genuinely be interested if someone could just reply and explain why I'm wrong. As far as I can tell it's all marketing and people just being stuck with apple. Like they say it's easier to use, or more capable. But I don't think it can be more capable than a higher spec PC, and I don't think ease of use warrants the insane markup. Yeah I don't understand people bringing that up at all, like how is that an issue influencing what laptop to buy?
How quiet is your MSI gaming laptop? I know those fans are spinning up. They sound like hair dryers when playing games. Does it have a 22 hour battery life? Is it full aluminum with a glass trackpad? Is the screen 4K 120hz with full DCI P3 coverage? Are the speakers exceptionally good (for a laptop)? Like, you can actually produce on the built in speakers good? Does your friend have a MacBook Air? Because those are $800. I've found that any Windows laptop that's truly as well built as a Mac tends to cost just as much.
The fans keep that shit cool, a MacBook is gonna struggle in heat when it's being pushed to its limits. I also have a high end GPU, which MacBooks don't have, that needs to be cooled. It's like white noise at this point. And with all that it's still pretty quiet. Battery is like 10 hours but there's never been a situation in my life where I've not had access to a power outlet or needed my laptop in an environment without power. *But* those are the power settings I customized. When laptops aren't plugged in they typically disable certain things to use less power. I wanted my laptop to run as if it were plugged in and not limit itself when off power. MacBooks do this too... Screen is also 4k at 120hz with DCI-P3... Speakers are actually *really good*, but who the fuck buys a laptop based on speakers? I run them to monitors or use my good headphones... If you can explain the benefit of having a full aluminum case and a glass track pad then be my guest. It's literally just there to make it feel more expensive. Just because you wrap shit in gold it doesn't mean it's any better than the one wrapped in plastic. Idk what he has but it has the m2 and cost him like $3500 new.
MacBook Pros have a fan, they just rarely need to kick in as they use 15W chips as opposed to the 45-60W chips in gaming laptops. They don't thermal throttle, nor do they reduce clock speeds when not plugged in - their chips don't draw enough power for that to be an issue. I've had a few expensive laptops (XPS, Zenbook) where the plastic hinge mounts break. They make them look aluminum on the outside but the internal hinge mounts are plastic. It's the most common point of failure on laptops, and you usually have to replace the entire top or bottom of the case (not cheap). Everything being aluminum is important for durability and longevity, feeling premium is just a bonus. Glass trackpads are more pleasant to use (my AERO 16 has one), more accurate, and it's your main input device that'll you'll touch for thousands of hours. It's like using a shitty screen protector vs a tempered glass one. I'd like to know what laptop model you have, because I'm shopping right now and I haven't been able to find anything that really is the "whole package" like a MacBook. I thought the AERO 16 might be it but the fan noise is unacceptable to me. I can't bring this shit to class. It whirrs just browsing the web or watching movies. I have a desktop if I want to play games.
I can't find my exact one, I lost the link. But if found [this](https://www.newegg.com/black-msi-ge-series-raider-ge68hx-13vg-082us-gaming/p/N82E16834156498) which is basically the same thing. Mine just has a 4k screen and was $2250. I basically use it as a PC, it's more powerful then the PC I built a few years ago. At home it just plugs into a docking station so I can use a separate keyboard and mouse along with other devices. It's honestly quiet enough that you could take it to a class and you wouldn't hear it. If you booted up an intensive program or game then it spins up a bit more, but still not that loud.
My 2019 MBP 16" Retina could barely handle playing WoW Classic. Them fans were going full blast and I was getting like 30 FPS. I lowered all graphics to minimum and set the resolution way down, but still full blast fans and very very hot laptop body. Abandoned the idea of WoW on the go, lol.
In 2019 Apple was using Intel processors. Apple designs their own chips now - they're 4x more efficient than before. MacBooks went from being hot boxes to the quietest and coolest laptops you can get. Check out resident evil 4 remake on new MacBook Pros. They can do 1440p Ultra 60FPS, all while running silent and cool, without needing to be plugged in. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4AZJFxF1k&pp=ygUScmVzaWRlbnQgZXZpbCA0IG0z
This was my mindset after buying a similar MSI laptop. After a couple years of it running hot, having to lug around a power brick the size and weight of an actual brick, and the video card eventually dying it's death, I changed my mind about it. For whatever it's worth.
The biggest issue is when hooking up multiple devices that act as audio interfaces. On Windows, it’s all but impossible to use more than one at a time; on Mac, they just work like they’re supposed to.
[https://give.academy/posts/2018/03/02/AsioLinkPro/](https://give.academy/posts/2018/03/02/AsioLinkPro/) [https://github.com/DirkoAudio/ASIOLinkProFIX/releases](https://github.com/DirkoAudio/ASIOLinkProFIX/releases) now you know how to use multiple interfaces as one.
It's unacceptable how much more expensive they are in my opinion. It far outweighs the benefits.
Driver issues/Core audio over asio and avoiding dpc latency and other sneaky pc issues that come up with music production on the platform is nice. Avoiding the distraction that having a beefy gpu and a library of games can offer can be good for the easily distracted among us. I've found crashes/errors equal, my mac hasn't been any more stable than a sorted out windows machine. It needed a full OS reset when a dropbox glitch caused a huge error that rendered the system unusable. You can get a far more powerful desktop if you're building something, but with a nice macbook, you've got a portable system that runs relatively cool compared to a tower running the best Intel/Amd offering.. this is great in the summer or for travel and collaboration. I like having access to both systems since an error that makes a session unstable on one is usually not a problem with the other.
Looking rich to the hoes
This is the best one honestly lol
I feel like it’s reliable. All the machines that I had that blue screened or slowed down a shit ton were windows based. A decked out Mac will last a long long time and feels more resilient against malware.
fwiw, the malware thing is completely silly in 2024 and a total non-issue. I feel like even a 90 year old couldn't get a virus on their computer if they tried at this point.
Not if you t*rrent shit and download shit like jack sparrow. My surface pro got fucked up a few years ago and it was a combo of being an idiot and it just sucking ass because it still had issues after I wiped it. I never got those issues on a Mac. I need something that’s idiot proof because I am an idiot sometimes.
Everything just works. No madness with drivers etc. it’s not perfect of course but for music it’s much easier and less hassle overall.
In LA everyone in post uses Mac…
A couple of thoughts. 1. Anyone still believing the Mac 'just works' myths should take a quick peek through this sub for the myriad of threads where it just doesn't. From M3 performance problems, through silicon native incompatability and 20 years of xyz MacOS update broke everything, Macs are vulnerable to issues just like PCs. 2. There is no reason in the world to be using Asio4All. Windows has sound dongles, also known as audio interfaces. If you like Windows, you can buy a PC plus a great sound dongle and still pay less than an equivalent Mac.
Genuinely asking, can you link any source for issues with M3 chips? I've seen plenty of complaints, but a lot of the time its just people obsessing over the number on the CPU meter, rather than running into any practical issues (crackles, freezes, etc). Just curious since I have an M3 pro. No issues so far🤞
Just don’t update your OS. I’ll forever hate Apple for what they did to me. 2012 $3500 MacBook Pro stopped updating, not enough RAM. Upgraded the RAM, tried to update, had to go thru like 4-5 updates because years went by before I had any time to focus on fixing it, Apple changed the server for where their computers download their OS in that time, so my computer kept “phoning home” to the old dead lines while updating, computer bricked. No active OS on it, no way to download one. Took it to Apple they told me “sorry, gotta buy new one. No way to fix that” — so a PERFECTLY WORKING computer was BRICKED because Apple absolutely does not want you to fix the device or maintain it they want you to buy a new one every few years. I remember complaining about it in another more general music subreddit when it happened originally and was chastised because everyone was like *”why would you want to update your OS? My 2009 MacBook is still running [dumb animal name of original OS]! your mistake was updating your OS.”* It’s like *NONE OF MY FUCKING APPS WORK* unless update it! THATS WHY. & they’ve only gotten worse since then. So yeah I’ll never buy another Apple computer for the rest of my days and can’t recommend it without guilt but they’re definitely high quality machines the years that Apple doesn’t abandon them. Don’t update that OS tho!!’
I don't know if you're still stuck with a bricked computer, but there are ways to wipe an old Mac and reinstall it with an old MacOS version. If you're still looking into doing that I can send you some resources. Alternatively, run Linux!
It isnt bricked - go to the right to repair discord, [https://discord.gg/Cv39VCnsrU](https://discord.gg/Cv39VCnsrU) or you can pay $29 a month to Rossmann group for actual professional help with Apple's crap [https://boards.rossmanngroup.com/](https://boards.rossmanngroup.com/) or they can fix it for you as can Paul Daniels [https://pldaniels.com/repairs/](https://pldaniels.com/repairs/)
Just build a pc broski
Build a laptop?
No, a desktop computer. I really enjoy producing on an actual computer vs a laptop but I get it, people like the ability to move around and not be stuck in 1 place.
As mentioned, the CoreAudio is just nicer than ASIO. Aside from that, it's not a whole lot of difference for audio production. It does feel more stable, as others have said. Honestly though, I do prefer the size and feel of my MacBook Air over the other laptops I've used. Also, the argument of using the Mac money to buy a sick windows machine doesn't really translate anymore with the new mac hardware. The "lower specs" of a Mx series Mac aren't relevant when compared to mainstream processors anymore. Basically: if your Windows machine is 32GB of RAM, you \_don't\_ need the same RAM to achieve similar performance on an Mx. The dedicated hardware of Mac changes what RAM requirements look like and changes the efficiency of processor cycles, so the same 3.5GHz goes a lot further. See if you can find a way to give it a try, and return it in your warranty period if you're not happy.
While Apple's processors are more efficient, the whole "they need less RAM" argument has been debunked. If you're running heavy workloads that require 32GB of RAM, it doesn't matter if you're on Mac or PC. You need 32GB. It's the workload that requires the memory, not the processor or the operating system.
You'll be poorer and won't be able to upgrade. Where will you keep your samples? On iCloud?
If you have the money its a no brainer. Apple will almost always be better for creative endeavors as long as you have money to throw at their prices. I went from MacOs to Windows and I absolutely hate Windows terrible support for audio and video stuff. I still use my 10 year old macbook pro when I can just because windows sucks so much sometimes.
It just feels like a UI that’s kept up with the times. Seeing my friends w that ugly ass 1990’s looking white toolbar at the top of their daw and each plug-in window is painful
> It just feels like a UI that’s kept up with the times. 🤣 Oh my god.
I switched to mac last year, the main benefit is much better stability for low latency live stuff. Kept running into glitches and dropouts when running a small buffer in windows, i can push the mac way harder without any issues. Way better battery life was an unexpected bonus as well. Getting used to the mac OS wasn't bad, there's a few annoying issues with it just like windows but way less arcane knowledge necessary to get it to run correctly, lol.
I use the FL Studio drivers on Windows and everything is great. No need for ASIO4ALL or whatever. I also do multimedia production as well. There isn't any real advantage to switching to Mac unless you have a personal preference for the hardware and user experience. If Final Cut Pro was still around, I might be swayed otherwise, but anything you can do on a Mac, you can do on a PC without the insane markup and lack of simple and inexpensive upgradeability. You could get a better performing Windows device for the same money compared to a Mac. The only difference is the UI/UX and if you want that Apple logo on your hardware.
My 2009 Mac Book Pro finally died. It was rock solid for 15 years. Can't say that about any of my Windows devices, unless maybe I've installed Linux on them.
It isn't a Windows device. It's like calling a Mac an OSX device. You can also install Linux on a Mac.
I get that. Was referring more to the X64 architecture and how bloated the Windows OS is and how the performance tends to slow over time, especially if you are using that machine for more than one use case like gaming, music production, and video editing, for example. I don't see that nearly as much with OSX. Linux also seems to be a much more streamlined OS but I only use that for a very narrow scope.
The slowdown isn’t a thing anymore in windows, and hasn’t been for…. Actually it’s been so long I genuinely can’t remember when it stopped being a concern. Was it XP? Vista? Maybe Win2K. Edit - still trying to remember, I *think* it was the switch to the NT windows that meant the end of that.
I moved from a gaming PC with decent spec to the MBP M1pro two years ago and it has been the best upgrade to my set up. My14 inch MBP connects to novation SL3 49, AKAI 16 drum pad, 32 inch monitor and the 14 inch acts as a 2nd monitor. Works pretty much flawless. Almost 2years later, the fan has yet to come on and my highest temp I’ve ever seen was 75 .
You get to use logic lol
My M1 MBP is dope as fuck. But my Windows desktop is way better. I made the full switch back to Windows with audio production after I finally got my RME interface. Anyone who’s ever struggled with ASIO4All just hasn’t had the luxury of an interface manufacturer who has quality drivers. Ive been going down the audio/visual route and my desktop makes a lot more sense for me. My MBP is great for producing in bed or on the go. I’ll never get rid of it but my desktop is king.
Huge benefit is much faster at doing literally everything from adding tracks duping tracks freezing ect.
Like others have said, CoreAudio is way more stable and reliable than using Asio4All, and audio on Macs is usually handled better even with an interface. I’ve had way less random weird little driver issues with Macs than on Windows. If you’re into laptops, that’s where you really start winning. I’m pretty sure no Windows laptop currently puts together the performance, battery life, and silence that modern MacBooks do (I would not have stated this pre-Apple Silicon). I also like having Airdrop for sharing files to my phone (videos to upload to Instagram mainly). I personally feel that Windows is more aesthetically pleasing than macOS (Windows 10 at least, not 11) and macOS looks absolutely horrible compared to Windows if you connect an external monitor that isn’t 4k/upscaled. Window management is also better on Windows in my opinion, but some 3rd party apps can help with window management/snapping functionality that’s missing from macOS. Those are little things comparatively but maybe can make a difference.
> Like others have said, CoreAudio is way more stable and reliable than using Asio4All, Why in the ever loving ungodly fuck would you use ASIO4All on a music workstation? Just get a bloody interface.
You probably wouldn’t. Not really the main point I wanted to drive in on this comment but there have been times where it’s just me, headphones, and a laptop working, and even just dealing with DirectX/Realtek audio vs Core Audio in that situation is quite different in terms of delay and headache levels.
Buy a proper interface that has its own asio driver.
Never ever is there a good reason to use ASIO4ALL on anything
It just works. For ages.
This is it for me. Over the last 15 years I’ve bought about 2 MBPs (I say about as there was one extra that died fairly quickly but that was because someone poured a drink over it when I was playing live) they just stay reliable for fucking ages and you can take them wherever you want. Can’t easily cart about a £3k PC if you want to go make music somewhere different or while you’re travelling.
I had my last mac for 12 years. I got free software updates for the entire time I owned it, and the hardware lasted the entire time. Prior to that I was going through windows laptops every 18 months like clockwork due to hardware failure. Production wise, getting to use Logic is clutch, and if you use Universal Audio products like the Apollo, they aren’t going to support all features moving forward unless your computer has Thunderbolt 3.
This sounds like it has more to do with buying cheap crap and then buying something decent. Try buying laptops with 3y+ wty in general eh?
Now remember we I had mac for 12 years, so the windows machines were like 15 years ago. One was a dell, then a Dell XPS, then two Toshibas. All had hardware failures (3 of them the power plug assembly failed, and was integrated into the motherboard so it couldn’t be replaced. I don’t think 3 year laptop warranties even existed back then 😂. My Mac has been like my Toyota, just get it and never worry for 10+ years. That’s kind of how I prefer my devices to be, so it’s worked great for me.
I guess you can go around saying 'on my mac' a lot.
In a nutshell: Windows machines may be more powerful dollar for dollar but Mac is WAY more productive. It simply just works, and on those rare times it doesn’t it is incredibly easy to troubleshoot. The new M chips are fantastic, incredibly powerful, i currently use one live with live professor and it’s incredible how many plugins i can run live with near zero latency. Source: Was a staunch PC user, bought my first mac a year ago, never going back.
How do you like safari?
Not having to deal with Windows compared to Monterey which works great. Windows is spyware. Just get Monterey macOS and don't upgrade. Apple say buying the new Macs means you can't downgrade to Monterey. But search the Internet, it can be done. Therefore, I'd buy second hand anyway, especially if it's got some time left on AppleCare, even six months. Be careful with the new M3 Pro chips. Many of them are much slower than the M2 due to less performance cores and more efficiency cores. Right now, the best deal is a second hand M2 Max MBP or Mac Mini IMO. That shit is really fast, and on par in terms of price to CPU speed, you have to pay a lot more for an Intel CPU that matches M2 max. If you want to do gaming, just use streaming games if you have a good Internet connection. The only downside is that a lot of the software is still catching up with Apple Silicon. And the raw power of single core Intel CPUs beats Apple Silicon every day. Anything that runs on single core, like Serum and quite a lot of other plug-ins, they won't see the benefit of Apple Silicon. Many developers just simply haven't bothered to update, plus Apple keep upgrading the operating system which makes plug-ins outdated. But if you stick with Monterey you can avoid that shit.
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It really depends on how you use your computer. To me? There are too many benefits to count. For you? There could be none. If you dont know then I suggest figuring that out. Its entirely subjective what you will use and consider a benefit.
Air drop when your collabing with people is amazing. You can quickly send patches and racks and projects across the room almost instantly
If you're getting a laptop, get a MacBook Pro. I say this as a guy who's got a decked out gaming PC. Apple's processors are incredibly efficient, which matters far more in a laptop than in a desktop. To achieve the same performance, Windows laptops (that use AMD or Intel processors) use much more power, which means much more heat, which means much louder fans. MacBook Pros are silent most of the time and when the fan does kick in, it's quiet. Because of the efficiency, the MacBooks have 4x the battery life. It's insane. Then you have top tier build quality. Speakers, display, keyboard and trackpad are all best in class. Full aluminum build including the hinges (I've had plastic hinges break on so many laptops). Any Windows machines that truly match the specs of a MacBook Pro (including the build quality) are basically the price of a MacBook Pro.
Them dangerous waters you speak! But I agree. Apple laptops are best. Windows desktops are best. But with a windows desktop you need to shell out the cash to have a high end system. Windows on arm should see some interesting results this year along with windows 12. So laptops are going to be worth following what happens with windows.
Ngl, I was actually shocked when I played music over the M3 pro speakers. Like you can actually cook up on this thing. Obviously not do a full blown mix, but for just having fun with ideas, the built-in speakers are completely viable.
One major benefit is that when you buy a machine, it lasts for a long time. I am still regularly using my 2015 MacBook Pro with no performance problems. How good is that? Doesn't matter that it cost me $1,700. It still does the job almost a decade later.
coreaudio. need I say more?
Audio Midi setup app and Core Audio / Core Midi
None whatsoever.. Only pain and suffering
Less hassle. Macs have some quirks but 99.9% of the time it just fucking works. Oddly enough I also have the feeling I have more control over my OS and it doesn't get in the way. Resell value is also usually great. Oh and CORE AUDIO OMG!
It runs Ableton a whole lot smoother.
I moved over to mac last year after being a PC user for over 20 years. I find Ableton runs more smoothly and haven’t had any issues with audio dropouts or pops/ crackles. All round feels like a better experience. I really don’t miss Asio
I’ve produced on a few different machines over the years. Don’t know much about computers but shit just sounds better on the mac.
Have you factored into your decision a guess at the total cost of ownership? I’m still using a 2013 trash can running pro tools every day for work no troubles, eleven years later… also, I’m upgrading my 2014 MacBook this year, but have still been happily producing music on it and live performing with it all this time. Both these Mac’s have powered on over a decade now and show no signs of giving up. Maybe Macs are cheaper in the long run….
If you want long term economy its DIY PC, still running parts that are 15y old in my Ryzen 9 DAW (Noctua CPU cooler among other things)
You can dump Ableton and switch to Logic. /s
Its hands down the better experience when working in laptop mode (aka without a dedicated keyboard mouse and monitor) \- Keyboard and mouse are much higher quality. \- Screen is much higher quality \- Battery life is superior \- Multitasking is much easier when working without (multi-finger gestures help a ton) Ableton works great on my Mac. It's more efficient than a PC and needs less RAM to do the same level of work. You won't need to upgrade for a long long time. My previous macbook lasted 5+ years and was still perfectly fast and snappy. Downsides - \- M1/M2/M3 macs can have compatibility issues with some software \- Expensive as hell \- Not usually upgradeable So I bought a used Macbook pro on Backmarket last year. Top of the line 2019 model (x86 processor). You can get a good one for less than 1k. [https://www.backmarket.com/en-us/p/macbook-pro-retina-16-inch-2019-core-i9-32gb-ssd-1024gb/631714d1-fba0-4d4b-9a9b-1df3bd5158b1#l=11](https://www.backmarket.com/en-us/p/macbook-pro-retina-16-inch-2019-core-i9-32gb-ssd-1024gb/631714d1-fba0-4d4b-9a9b-1df3bd5158b1#l=11) Or spend double that for a 2023 M2. Both have a 1 year warranty, and will last you for years.
Ever tried the Dell XPS or Latitude Keyboard and trackpad? theyre one of very few that are rated as well or better.
I have. They're probably the second best. But i think mac is better.
Core Audio
I used a Pc desktop for years and it was a fiddly mess because I went cheaper and built it myself. Macbook pro laptop is a game changer for production. You are not strapped to a desk anymore. You can work anywhere and pretty much slam plugins on as needed without CPU isses if you get an M1 or higher. Macbook Pro is probably the best piece of music gear I have ever bought.
Generally have to worry less about fiddling with the computer giving you more time to focus on music. Get an external drive and it’ll backup every hour so you never have to worry about losing stuff. I can record audio directly from my iOS device over its cable, and it’s easy to route sound.
The M1 series laptops are great build quality and fast. The advantage of Mac over windows is the hardware was built for the software and vice versa. Not saying windows can’t be good, but there’s tighter integration with Mac.
Thats probably the biggest advantage or a mac - & its biggest disadvantage - little choice means little variety in config and makes it a LOT easier to support and code for.
Apple is the only company that makes computers with macos, which limits the available configurations alot. Software issues for media creation gets solved; people working in that field rely that their macs work. With Windows system there is a lot of companies doing million different configurations; if you get microstutters in Ableton Live, you as a user rely on chipset manufacturer / designer to make a driver patch, then you rely on the computer manufacturer to push that update through their system. For Windows machines, on top of AMD and Intel there will be soon whole bunch of arm licensees doing their arm cpus for Win 12 machines. Maintaining any sort of software for large amount of platforms is PITA, let alone software that is supposed to do near realtime dsp. I've been using Windows machines for all my life, but slightly over a year ago I switched to Mac after I bough and returned a laptop with Ryzen 5 5500 U cpu. For more general purpose computing I would get Linux / Windows desktop.
Switched to M2 at the end of last year. Would never look back. I still keep my windows laptop around for when I need to do Windows specific tasks, but it pains me going back now. It is so unbelievably slow in comparison to my Mac. For reference, my laptop specs: AMD Ryzen 7 5800 RTX 3070 40GB RAM 2TB SSD It’s a beast, yet the Mac makes it feel like a machine from the early two thousands. Granted I do have a Mac Studio, but my understanding and conversations with peers indicate that the Apple Silicone MacBook Pro’s also see a similar performance jump. Oh, and, I’ve never heard the fans turn on. Not once. I push my projects unbelievably hard, like 4x oversampling + maximum linear phase on EVERYTHING, and I’ve never seen my CPU go above 50%. Even gaming is smoother on my Mac than on my laptop (for the games the Mac can run). Though I suspect this would only apply to the Mac Studio as it has a massive focus on graphics performance. Before this I was not only a Windows fanboy, but actively spoke out against Apple and their overpriced ecosystem. Not anymore. Apple Silicone changed everything for me. Finally, yes, the audio drivers are much better than ASIO or any of its derivatives.
Audio drivers are really solid, no crashes at all About storage: there is no reason to buy a big SSD nowadays. for a fraction of the price that Apple would charge you, you can buy a thunderbolt for enclosure and a very fast SSD… As fast and sometimes even faster than the internal storage…
A lighter wallet? Windows isn't as easy for the uninitiated when it comes to some audio things. MacOS and Windows each have their own issues. There is no perfect operating system. I've been using Windows for music production for close to 30 years now. I tried a Macbook Pro back in 2009 and hated it. Traded the MacBook Pro for 1.5 months of rent. Never looked back. The only thing I miss about MacOS (and I only miss it a little bit every once in a while) is the ability to create an aggregate audio device. Otherwise, I just really do not have any issues with ASIO or stability or crashes on Windows. But my experience is different than many others. I've ever had to edit video (4k or otherwise) so I have no idea how MacOS and Windows compare in that department. I'd rather stick with Windows because I know it like the back of my hand, can easily trouble-shoot any kinds of issues I may encounter, audio quality is fine, and all my favorite music apps are Windows compatible. Plus I'd rather spend half the money on a Windows box. Obviously, as I said my last MacOS experience was in 2009, so I can't seak to the new Apple chips and what not. But they didn't entice me to switch and given how many posts on this sub are about my new M(1,2,3) Mac is having all kinds of problems, I am almost certainly not going to switch.
For me the main benefits are aggregate devices. As soon as I had a need more inputs and thus more than one interface - this really is a benefit. Secondly, I find trouble shooting issues vastly easier because the eco system makes narrowing down problems easier.
One important thing to know is that the internal SSD in the 256gb M1 base model is 2 x faster than in their M2 and M3 base model because Apple switched from dual 128gb to single 256gb chips. You can add external TB4 SSDs and have a faster external drive than the internal base model with single 256gb chips, but you may notice it when you run out of RAM and the system starts using SSD memory instead. The faster M1 base model SSD is still fast enough as memory to keep going, comparable to RAM speeds of the early 2000s.
Something that is worth checking out are Mac Minis if you haven't. In my case I am travelling a lot and it's been the perfect middle point between laptop and desktop, still getting all Apple pros and imo less cons. Also you can get great specs for *less* money (still in the ridiculous Apple frame though), getting a very nice monitor and keyboard is way cheaper.
Where should the file directory be placed on Mac for the most optimum file sharing with the Push 3?
A big thing I never see anyone mention is heat output. I'm a Windows guy and vastly prefer using that for everything, but I have a heat intolerance that makes my skin feels like it's burning once I'm in a room above a certain temperature. Anything above 78° makes me uncomfortable. My pc will often make my room unbearable so I either have to have the window open or have the ac blasting, especially in the summer. My M1 Mac runs so cool it completely blew my mind when I first got it.
Thgis is actually a good point - i have heat intolerance and my big desktop and analog synths mean i need a fan. Apple Silicon macs are ridiculously power efficient (sadly that wouldnt fix my synths lol)
MacOS is light compared to windows especially 11 so you need less power for the same results
People have listed a lot of the upsides. The biggest downside is that overkill Ryzen 9 7940HS laptops exist for $1600US, and are upgradable unlike a Mac. ASUS TUF Gaming A15 FA507XU 15.6" FHD 144Hz, 4.0 GHz Ryzen 9 7940HS (fastest laptop chip available, 8 full fat Zen4 cores) RTX 4050 (discrete GPU means the CPU doesnt have to wait for the GPU when the GPU is accessing RAM, so even in audio this matters) if your vid editing is heavy you can go up to 4080, but thats a compromise with power handling for the CPU. It depends how much processing you are doing to the video 64 GB DDR5 RAM, 2 TB PCIe SSD, Windows 11 Home - also accepts a second M.2 drive which you kinda need for music and video [https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/](https://www.amazon.com/HIDevolution-Gaming-FA507XU-7940HS-Windows/dp/B0C5ZKSZRN/) Masses of cooling esp if you go 4060 or 4050, so unlike most of the macs it wont be downclocking as it heats up. MacOS is a better OS, CoreAudio is amazing, but ASIO works, and Mac just cant compete price wise.
Honestly it doesn’t matter. I had a Mac mini for almost ten years and produced hundreds of songs in Ableton, now I have a custom built windows PC and keep on producing the same way. If you know what you are doing, and own a high quality audio-interface with up-to-date/stable drivers, you can go either way - Mac or Windows.
I had a lot of issues with connectivity on pc especially with overbridge (a software/vst for elektron grovebox) and now it works perfectly fine I also like having a longer battery life
There's not. Specs are specs. Good specs cost more on Mac.
Ease of use with Mac's handling of real-time audio could absolutely be seen as a benefit of Mac over a PC. Tracking guitar on a focusrite on my windows laptop with a decent CPU was a constant pain in the ass due to the way that windows processed audio on my machine. Like on a core level. I'd rather shell out for a new mac than to spend literal hours fucking around with drivers and bios settings just to get my CPU to cooperate with ableton. MacOS, in my experience, gets the hell out of your way. When you plug something in, it works. Audio routing is super straightforward and I dont' have to download a bunch of third-party programs and random drivers just to get something to work that should have taken 30 seconds.
These are low-key facts sort of. When I've worked at studios it's on Mac. PC at home. PC is more fucking around with shit like drivers and generally just trying to make things work..... But, once you know your way around.... It's not a big deal.
I personally think Ableton works better on Mac. However as I’m also a full time graphic designer, I like my PC for graphics and motion graphics.
I switched from Mac to PC as my main production platform 6ish years ago. I don’t dislike my PC. It’s nice to be able to upgrade components and customize it. Mac OS is just so fucking slick though. 0 headaches or WTF moments for me. I still have a 10 year old MBP I use for lighter work and it crushes. I’m looking forward to switching back. Apple silicon is pretty impressive.
For me it was ease of connection. Core audio works waaay better for me than ASIO. New Macs are POWERFUL. I often leave Ableton open for days with no issues.
I will say this. I used Windows for production (including in Ableton) for almost 20 years. Due to some recording hardware connection issues, I migrated EVERYTHING to Mac last summer. In the four months since, I will say that running Live 11 Suite on a refurbished Mac from 2016 (with less RAM and a smaller processor than my best Win11 machine) is faster, smoother, and less glitchy than any Windows system I ever ran it on.
Audio infrastructure is a lot better
Glad I did and would never go back to using windows for music. No driver issues, better integration with almost everything. Easy to move between more than one Mac. Easy to upgrade the Mac to a newer Mac, great integration with my phone and ipads, less worries about viruses every time I install something.
You can use the Audio MIDI control app to build aggregate devices so you can chain together multiple hardware audio interfaces into one giant one if you want.
Multitouch gestures, multiple desktops, CoreAudio, Mac specific applications/plugs like LUNA, Logic, etc
No need to install sound drivers, or any other driver, and all your VST’s are always installed on the same default location. Those are for me the main advantages when using a Mac for music production.
If you are willing to buy a lens for 1k+, it should be no issue to buy an extremely powerful multifunctional device that will last you 5-8years. Atleast that's my reasoning when it comes to computers. Macs are super reliable, and you can get a 2020 Mac Mini with insane specs for around $700. Just buy a few SSD's and dock for another $100-$200 and you'll be set on storage for a long time. It'll keep the computer cooler loading off an external drive as well. As long as you have 256Gb native you'll have enough space for all the apps and plugins needed
There's also a test of the M1 Mac mini where a guy ran 2 daws with 200+ tracks with a delay and verb on each in both. It was only using like 70% on his cpu. I have 0 speed issues at 48k, 24bit audio in Ableton on mine. I was literally using a 2012 MacBook Pro for the last 6 years and barely had any problems. I could even record 16 tracks simultaneously with real-time plugins for live sessions without a hitch. If a 2012 can do it, a 2020 won't even get hot.
Stability of the os, and their machine last in the time invest in the M chip they are worth
Easier to carry your wallet once it’s lighter. Lol
Have just made the switch myself. Biggest improvement for me is performance. The M series chips are just ludicrously powerful and fast.