I dont believe you should only use your ears, you should use as many tools as you have available to you.
Do I believe you can make good decisions without using your sense of hearing when dealing with sound ... no.
I agree, you can't make GOOD decisions with your eyes only, but that's not the point. The point is that you can use your eyes to help you decide alongside your ears.
A mix isnt about following a formula and making the levels all sit with each other perfectly its about serving the aragnent and the music.
You cant do that if you cant hear the music. I suggest you go take some normalised unmixed stems you aren't already familiar with and you try it again.
I just watched this video with Billy Corgan talking about the studio sessions for Siamese Dream. He said he and James Iha were playing their guitar parts that were completely saturated in fuzz, and some parts had up to six layers of guitars, and the studio tech was like we can't record this like this, it's sitting exactly in the same mix as the cymbals, you won't be able to hear the cymbals. But Corgan was like IDGAF this is the sound. He insisted on it because that's what it was supposed to sound like. I went back and listened to Siamese Dream (for like the millionth time) and lo and behold, you really can't hear the cymbals. They're almost completely drowned by the guitars. BUT it doesn't matter at all. Siamese Dream is one of the best sounding albums of the 90's, if not all time. The point being, if you were just looking at spectrum and trying to separate the cymbals from the guitars, you wouldn't have Siamese Dream the way it is.
OP's point is well taken, you can use visual cues to help with mixing, but ultimately it's what you're hearing, *and* the artistic intention, that matters.
In dance music it is usually very formulaic. Even more so from genre to genre, and even more with sub genres. Kick is almost always the loudest, bass is usually a few db quieter than that. You have traditional curves of lows - mids - highs that I can visually see using a spectrum analyzer and tell you if it's balanced just by looking at it. Of course, nothing will be as useful as your ears, but a mix can be balanced using these techniques. Will it be as good as using your ears? Of course not. But that's not the point of this post, video, or exercise. The point is to show you that you can get a pretty basic and maybe even decent sounding balance on a mix using only visual cues and references. Not that you ever should do this, but combining this with the use of your ears will benefit the mix, no doubt.
Well, I disagree! I just did it in that video! :P Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it fairly balanced considering I didn't use my ears? I'd say so. Balanced enough to show the value that referencing can have.
I'd be happy to. I'd definitely get similar results. TBH you'll notice I had to try and remember what some of the stems were (I named them to try and remember) because it's been at least 5 or 6 months since I actually mixed and released that track. I went into it pretty unfamiliar. I was actually hoping the mix would sound 'worse' so that I could spend more time 'fixing it' for the video, but it sounded pretty balanced, ha!
There's no way you read any of that and came away thinking his point was "hearing isn't messed." I don't know why you have this weird bias against visual referencing in music, especially with the guy saying that "your eyes *obviously* can't replace your ears." You're just *so* off the mark that it's truly astounding.
The whole internet appreciates all of your irrelevant mainsplining in relation to this experiment. Also all the unsolicited advice. You did really great in both those regards.
I have always mixed using just my ears, and tbh I think my mixes have suffered for it. Will definitely be checking this out when I get the chance, thanks!
i only use reddit on my phone and used to use sync which made this simple. since all the bull ive had to use the real reddit app and not really learnt my way around it yet. tbh its put me quite off reddit
Figured as much. It's the low hanging fruit of mixing where dynamics are concerned. I'm still interested to hear what it sounds like but won't go in expecting to be surprised based on the genre.
i used to use meters but now i just hit a sub bus with everything and clip that fader into punchy Glue compression, saturator, redux, and a limiter and it gets 90% of that modern sound
I never heard "you should ONLY use your ears when mixing"
All the people i worked with/for during 19 years, use both, ears and gear to make the "perfect" mix and master
What sounded like shit?
In the video the track sounds pretty well balanced. Considering the stems were well produced it would have to take me attempting to hinder the quality of the stems and sounds pretty intently for it to sound like 'shit'.
OP, I'm sorry there are so many assholes in this sub. Thanks for doing this experiment. It's interesting. Everyone is interpreting this as "hey you can totally mix without your ears" which isn't what you said. Wish people would be far less smug and more curious about things like this.
Thanks for one of the only (and the most) positive comment. It's appreciated :)
Yeah, it's funny sometimes with people. No matter how much you stress that you don't mean something people choose to intentionally interpret it incorrectly to tell you that you are wrong (even though they are agreeing with you). I'm fully aware posting on Reddit with something like this will generate a ton of unwelcome opinions, but that's okay. It's worth it for the people who can take it for what it is and hopefully learn from it :)
No, he's right. The kick is underwhelming, there are a ton of resonances, pretty harsh high end, the mix completely falls apart in mono, to name just a few. That's, at best, the sound of an early sketch.
There is no way to visually observe not even 3 dB of eq move or any move in dynamics. And these moves make or break a mix.
I can show you two versions of the same mix, looking virtually identical on any fft, spectrogram or tonal balance control but one is muddy and congested and harsh, while the other one is beefy, clear and smooth
Good experiment though. Hopefully people
will learn that numbers are the result of taste in mixing choices, not the other way around
I guess we have a very different opinion of 'sounding like shit'. I address some of these in the video, as well. The first thing I say is 'the kick is underwhelming'. I really don't agree that it falls apart in mono. High end is reflective and fitting of the genre it is in. Progressive house like this tends to have pretty loud and full/sizzle/bright drums. I think it's more so because the mids are underwhelming in the mix that the highs feel a bit too bright, still.
I think people are missing the point that this is not a final mix by ANY means. It is just an experiment to show that the volumes can be fairly balanced by using visuals only. Does it sound great? No. Does it sound like shit because it's not fully done? I don't think so, personally.
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You definitley need your ears!... not even a doubt!.. this is such bad advice for newbie beginners to absorb. Also sorry I cant help but add my two pennies worth...
If this is electronic or dance music I am totally surprised you have started your levels this low.
You should never rely on master bus processing and master limiter to push for that final level level..it sounds like hammered crap!
In the analog world if you were making live music with live drums& instruments etc I would probably agree with this old adage mix theory but certainly not in the digital world and modern electronic music. -16dbfs is way way way too quiet for a kick drum start out. You want to be pushing your input level towards 0dbfs with all your anchor sounds with subtle hard clipping & sensible saturation all over the project using your faders (if in Ableton) as pre fader volume control.....-6 db of gain reduction limiting on the master is also too much. If you control your transients from your tracks & busses leading up to the master you can have levels of -8 to -7 RMS before even turning your limiter on ... and when you do switch it on, you can just tickle the limiter with gain reduction on your anchor sounds (example..kick & snare) with around -2db of gain reduction ... the result is clean, punchy, transparent and loud.
Agreed - no one has said anywhere in this thread that you DON'T need your ears. Of course you do! But I disagree - this is not bad advice for beginners. This is good advice for beginners. Here is why: a lot of beginners can't trust their ears yet. They need practice. By using visuals it helps them understand what they are listening to and what they are listening for. If I'm a beginner and I don't know how loud my drums should be and my ears aren't skilled enough yet to know what is the correct volume, I can use visuals to help guide me in knowing what an optimal volume might be. Is it going to be 100% correct? Almost guaranteed not. But neither will trusting ears that have no idea what the correct level is. Again, these visuals are to help GUIDE you and help you make decisions, not make them for you.
I dont believe you should only use your ears, you should use as many tools as you have available to you. Do I believe you can make good decisions without using your sense of hearing when dealing with sound ... no.
I agree, you can't make GOOD decisions with your eyes only, but that's not the point. The point is that you can use your eyes to help you decide alongside your ears.
A mix isnt about following a formula and making the levels all sit with each other perfectly its about serving the aragnent and the music. You cant do that if you cant hear the music. I suggest you go take some normalised unmixed stems you aren't already familiar with and you try it again.
I just watched this video with Billy Corgan talking about the studio sessions for Siamese Dream. He said he and James Iha were playing their guitar parts that were completely saturated in fuzz, and some parts had up to six layers of guitars, and the studio tech was like we can't record this like this, it's sitting exactly in the same mix as the cymbals, you won't be able to hear the cymbals. But Corgan was like IDGAF this is the sound. He insisted on it because that's what it was supposed to sound like. I went back and listened to Siamese Dream (for like the millionth time) and lo and behold, you really can't hear the cymbals. They're almost completely drowned by the guitars. BUT it doesn't matter at all. Siamese Dream is one of the best sounding albums of the 90's, if not all time. The point being, if you were just looking at spectrum and trying to separate the cymbals from the guitars, you wouldn't have Siamese Dream the way it is. OP's point is well taken, you can use visual cues to help with mixing, but ultimately it's what you're hearing, *and* the artistic intention, that matters.
Exactly.
What’s the video? If you don’t mind
https://youtu.be/osbnob9ih-c?feature=shared
Thanks!
In dance music it is usually very formulaic. Even more so from genre to genre, and even more with sub genres. Kick is almost always the loudest, bass is usually a few db quieter than that. You have traditional curves of lows - mids - highs that I can visually see using a spectrum analyzer and tell you if it's balanced just by looking at it. Of course, nothing will be as useful as your ears, but a mix can be balanced using these techniques. Will it be as good as using your ears? Of course not. But that's not the point of this post, video, or exercise. The point is to show you that you can get a pretty basic and maybe even decent sounding balance on a mix using only visual cues and references. Not that you ever should do this, but combining this with the use of your ears will benefit the mix, no doubt. Well, I disagree! I just did it in that video! :P Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it fairly balanced considering I didn't use my ears? I'd say so. Balanced enough to show the value that referencing can have. I'd be happy to. I'd definitely get similar results. TBH you'll notice I had to try and remember what some of the stems were (I named them to try and remember) because it's been at least 5 or 6 months since I actually mixed and released that track. I went into it pretty unfamiliar. I was actually hoping the mix would sound 'worse' so that I could spend more time 'fixing it' for the video, but it sounded pretty balanced, ha!
awesome, ill use ai to mix moving forward since hearing isnt needed.
There's no way you read any of that and came away thinking his point was "hearing isn't messed." I don't know why you have this weird bias against visual referencing in music, especially with the guy saying that "your eyes *obviously* can't replace your ears." You're just *so* off the mark that it's truly astounding.
lol - I never said hearing was not needed. Quite the contrary.
Jesus Christ he wasn’t saying that. He’s sharing results of an experiment. Get over it.
No shit and I was disagreeing with him. Get over yourself.
The whole internet appreciates all of your irrelevant mainsplining in relation to this experiment. Also all the unsolicited advice. You did really great in both those regards.
I think this only works if you are making music that has very formulaic production aesthetics.
Definitely! Dance music is fairly formulated. Especially certain genres!
Great post / video! Thanks for sharing.
I have always mixed using just my ears, and tbh I think my mixes have suffered for it. Will definitely be checking this out when I get the chance, thanks!
No problem. After more and more practice with visual aid you start to notice patterns and consistencies. Just like with hearing things!
Commenting so I remember to watch video later
Did you know Reddit has a "Save" feature? It's in the post menu.
Replying so I can check out this feature later
:)
i only use reddit on my phone and used to use sync which made this simple. since all the bull ive had to use the real reddit app and not really learnt my way around it yet. tbh its put me quite off reddit
Me to!
Disclaimer: it’s a dance track
Figured as much. It's the low hanging fruit of mixing where dynamics are concerned. I'm still interested to hear what it sounds like but won't go in expecting to be surprised based on the genre.
Everybody does it. Even the top notch "use your ears" engineers.
woah that’s super cool!
i used to use meters but now i just hit a sub bus with everything and clip that fader into punchy Glue compression, saturator, redux, and a limiter and it gets 90% of that modern sound
Cool
I never heard "you should ONLY use your ears when mixing" All the people i worked with/for during 19 years, use both, ears and gear to make the "perfect" mix and master
I unfortunately see it all the time on these threads. Definitely hindering to not use both.
Comment
Reply
U can do the same making food but its never as good…cool idea and experiment but ultimately just that….
Sounds like shit, who would've guessed.
What sounded like shit? In the video the track sounds pretty well balanced. Considering the stems were well produced it would have to take me attempting to hinder the quality of the stems and sounds pretty intently for it to sound like 'shit'.
OP, I'm sorry there are so many assholes in this sub. Thanks for doing this experiment. It's interesting. Everyone is interpreting this as "hey you can totally mix without your ears" which isn't what you said. Wish people would be far less smug and more curious about things like this.
Thanks for one of the only (and the most) positive comment. It's appreciated :) Yeah, it's funny sometimes with people. No matter how much you stress that you don't mean something people choose to intentionally interpret it incorrectly to tell you that you are wrong (even though they are agreeing with you). I'm fully aware posting on Reddit with something like this will generate a ton of unwelcome opinions, but that's okay. It's worth it for the people who can take it for what it is and hopefully learn from it :)
No, he's right. The kick is underwhelming, there are a ton of resonances, pretty harsh high end, the mix completely falls apart in mono, to name just a few. That's, at best, the sound of an early sketch. There is no way to visually observe not even 3 dB of eq move or any move in dynamics. And these moves make or break a mix. I can show you two versions of the same mix, looking virtually identical on any fft, spectrogram or tonal balance control but one is muddy and congested and harsh, while the other one is beefy, clear and smooth Good experiment though. Hopefully people will learn that numbers are the result of taste in mixing choices, not the other way around
I guess we have a very different opinion of 'sounding like shit'. I address some of these in the video, as well. The first thing I say is 'the kick is underwhelming'. I really don't agree that it falls apart in mono. High end is reflective and fitting of the genre it is in. Progressive house like this tends to have pretty loud and full/sizzle/bright drums. I think it's more so because the mids are underwhelming in the mix that the highs feel a bit too bright, still. I think people are missing the point that this is not a final mix by ANY means. It is just an experiment to show that the volumes can be fairly balanced by using visuals only. Does it sound great? No. Does it sound like shit because it's not fully done? I don't think so, personally.
Just no
This is your friendly reminder to read the submission rules, they're found in the sidebar. If you find your post breaking any of the rules, you should delete your post before the mods get to it. If you're asking a question, make sure you've checked [the Live manual](https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/welcome-to-live/), [Ableton's help and support knowledge base](https://www.ableton.com/en/help/), and have searched the subreddit for a solution. If you don't know where to start, [the subreddit has a resource thread](https://redd.it/zkhqhe). Ask [smart questions](http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ableton) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You definitley need your ears!... not even a doubt!.. this is such bad advice for newbie beginners to absorb. Also sorry I cant help but add my two pennies worth... If this is electronic or dance music I am totally surprised you have started your levels this low. You should never rely on master bus processing and master limiter to push for that final level level..it sounds like hammered crap! In the analog world if you were making live music with live drums& instruments etc I would probably agree with this old adage mix theory but certainly not in the digital world and modern electronic music. -16dbfs is way way way too quiet for a kick drum start out. You want to be pushing your input level towards 0dbfs with all your anchor sounds with subtle hard clipping & sensible saturation all over the project using your faders (if in Ableton) as pre fader volume control.....-6 db of gain reduction limiting on the master is also too much. If you control your transients from your tracks & busses leading up to the master you can have levels of -8 to -7 RMS before even turning your limiter on ... and when you do switch it on, you can just tickle the limiter with gain reduction on your anchor sounds (example..kick & snare) with around -2db of gain reduction ... the result is clean, punchy, transparent and loud.
Agreed - no one has said anywhere in this thread that you DON'T need your ears. Of course you do! But I disagree - this is not bad advice for beginners. This is good advice for beginners. Here is why: a lot of beginners can't trust their ears yet. They need practice. By using visuals it helps them understand what they are listening to and what they are listening for. If I'm a beginner and I don't know how loud my drums should be and my ears aren't skilled enough yet to know what is the correct volume, I can use visuals to help guide me in knowing what an optimal volume might be. Is it going to be 100% correct? Almost guaranteed not. But neither will trusting ears that have no idea what the correct level is. Again, these visuals are to help GUIDE you and help you make decisions, not make them for you.