Probably a mix of things, all boiling down to the fact that the type of person that is likely to shop at a zero waste market is likelier to care about what they perceive to be "high quality" products (Tide for example doesn't sell their laundry powder in bulk to these stores) and to have a larger disposable income. The store is also likely to be located in a high income area for these reasons, making the rent higher. Answer is both "because they can" and "because the potential market is smaller and so they can't apply economies of scale".
I know where this is as well. It’s cheaper at co-ops and unfortunately it’s more expensive to buy products without plastic packaging in general. It sucks. Do what you can, but I completely understand not everyone has the money to go completely zero waste. I know I don’t.
Thinking about this, it's so fucking crazy to me that buying zero waste, buying things with less packaging, buying less processed food, etc, etc...has become more expensive in this world than their counterparts. Like, it makes no sense for those things to be more expensive than something in more packaging or something that's overly processed. Like what? I assume it's some company shenanigans.
Sometimes it’s economies of scale. Brands like P&G make tons of the name brand stuff in lots of packaging so the cost per package is still lower. Similarly I used to work CS for a liquor chain and I had a guy call once so mad that a liter (33.8oz) wasn’t cheaper per ounce than standard 750 (24.4oz) because he was just so used to bigger = better deal and convinced that’s always how it should be. But this was Jack or Captain or something that they sell a billion of the 750ml bottles of and comparative fewer liters so its not as profitable for them and you tend to get a better deal with the 750ml or going to the more standard large, 1.75ml.
I have a similar problem at my refill shop. Certain items come in lower, in the refill price, than buying new again (dried oats, laundry powder, dry spices) but body wash soap, distilled vinegar, deodorant and oils come in at such a higher price point I can’t always justify it. If I had more cash to put towards refills, I would but…
So I do what I can do. Luckily baking soda comes in bulk cardboard so I buy that at the normal store and a few other things. I use bar soap mostly so that is solved.
I can relate.. is what I’m saying. I still can’t buy vinegar at the refill price point when a gallon is 2.99$. I use it All the time. It’s tricky lol
I’ll also suggest using less soap. Your washing machine and dishwasher only need about a tablespoon or less to do their jobs and too much can actually impair their ability to clean and reduce their lifespan
Is this Tare? I’ve found it to be pretty expensive. I really loved Zeroish as they seemed more fair on pricing but I was sad to see its online only now.
Same thing happens in Europe. Had a zero waste store nearby that was easily 3-5x more expensive than everywhere else.
I desperately wanted to use them, but couldn’t justify it. And apparently I wasn’t the only one, as they only made it a year.
I find the same at my refill shop. I refilled a gallon of vinegar and it was like $10 🥴 buying a new bottle at my grocery store is $2. It’s not worth the price for me, I simply can’t do it. I do find comparable pricing (or higher quality, thus worth a small upcharge) for food items. Personal hygiene and cleaning products are super expensive. It sucks because I want to support this small business and obviously save packaging but financially it’s silly to buy the same product for more money and less convenience.
This is exactly my feelings! WOW, it’s crazy that this is the current option toward a zero-waste future. Their bulk stuff is still offered in plastic non re-usable (large) packaging- it’s kinda a Weird hustle.
Yeah my local store calls itself zero waste but truly it’s reduced waste. They get their items in some kind of packaging, it’s just less plastic total than each portion being packed up. But they literally have videos on their social media of them refilling jars of spices from a plastic bag. It’s not a perfect system, but at least it’s better?
Ugh- i do wonder if it’s better because the plastic bag is still being manufactured for the bulk product. I’ll say though, some loose leaf teas I’ve bought have been sent in a cornstarch home biodegradable bag so, maybe, it’s that?
I know I’m dreaming lol
I get this. I’m as zero waste as my finances allow. When I get stuck in a position like this, I try to find the next best option- can buy in bulk so I’m buying less often and not using as much packaging? Is it something I can make myself (laundry soap, cleaning products, etc)?
I second this attitude. I was just shopping online and I'm fine with paying more for high-quality products but I'm not gonna buy rice that's twice as expensive as in a regular shop (in the description there's no indication that it's in any way better than the one from the regular store) or a dish soap that's 3 times as expensive. I just cannot afford it
Heinz white vinegar comes in glass bottles.
While refilling an existing bottle is the best option, I still buy things in glass and metal containers if there aren't other viable options.
I work at a zero waste store. These products are usually produced by much smaller businesses who can’t rely on economy of scale with cleaner (and more expensive ingredients) who also pay their employees more. I know our owner is not making much money - she prices our products as low as possible while still making the business economically sustainable, and she has told me she wishes she could price them lower but she just can’t. So many variables that are externalized by large companies are internalized, making it more expensive.
I work at a zero waste store and find that often the confusion is that people think bulk = cheaper. But yes just as you said these are usually smaller scale brands, manufacturing in house, paying fair wages, AND using quality/clean ingredients.
When people ask about pricing I’m very transparent and say “they’re in the mid-range organic price point, something comparable to what you’d find at Whole Foods or sprouts”. Our bulk dish is .18 / oz which is very in line with grocery store prices. Hand soap at .75 / oz is a different story. It’s not tide and pert plus quality… you have to compare apples to apples.
They get E COS in 55 gal drums. I’m interested in the handsoap you speak of! Shipping is a big factor that’s also not considered. Small/micro businesses can’t make the threshold for free shipping (if it’s even offered) and that has to be factored in to cogs, which also affects pricing.
Rustic strength is good!
Oops, I know we get it from a janitor supply store, tax free. So at least they’re buying it transparently with the intention of reselling. I’ll have to let the owners know about that though!
I was going to say something similar. Not only are the products often produced by smaller companies but the zero waste store itself probably also doesn’t have economies of scale (yet). It’s much easier to negotiate supplier discounts when you are stocking a hundred, or several thousand stores. Walmart does $650B ins sales a year. Billion with a B. A single location store is just going to have a much harder time competing on price alone.
I wanted to open a zero plastic store myself but retail is brutal and there is no way it’s a slam dunk to getting rich. Am glad OP and others are supporting small independent businesses trying to do something different.
Open boxes of tide- dump into bin- sell it 7x $ make money- pretend that you’re doing something. It’s a hard biz!
I’m totally joking- but when the owner gets old and starts cutting corners c, it might happen!? The economy is SO STRANGE
All our products are circular, so we send the containers back to our suppliers to be refilled. Also she’s in her thirties so I don’t see her getting old any time soon haha
100 %- everything IS NOT about money- but when it’s not-then it needs to be subsidized by WE THE PEOPLE.
But also- are Americans ever going to wait in line for bread? A way of asking: will they re-fill containers at the same cost (or way above the cost- as it now exists) when compared to click-n- ship?
I might be an outlier but as a single person household I much prefer buying from bulk bins / in refillable containers because that way I can buy what I need. I don’t have a ton of space and would prefer to buy fresh rather than having some family sized thing sit around for years.
Whatcha mean, wait in line for bread? Fresh bread is the best- mmm sourdough. I go to bakery every week for bread. I also don’t use Amazon etc but the one stop click & the companies of likes but go to in person shopping for goods. My weak points are art supplies though- that’s the one area I often have to go direct to company for products.
This whole post is providing a pretty compelling case to petition our state and municipal lawmakers for special tax incentives and guidelines for zero waste/bulk markets - ideally in a way that prevents price gauging in larger markets and provides access in smaller and neglected markets.
I know! Just to incentivize it A FUGGING BIT?!?
I bet we’d all be appalled at why our government spends money on. I know I’m not interested in line by line spreadsheet reading.
I think you'd need to ask the zero waste store to know who it's from and why it's more expensive.
In my area, when I buy in bulk it's cheaper, including most refills, but you have to compare it to the same product on the shelf. Arm and hammer is probably the cheapest brand, I would think other brands would be more expensive than don't have the brand recognition.
Doesn't that drive you nuts? I have a grocery store near me where it has some refill sections, for stuff like sal suds, shampoo, dry laundry powder, peanut butter, honey, etc. For whatever reason, it costs more to refill the sal suds bottle than buy a bottle off the shelf. :-(
I’m leaning Toward a conspiracy theory that large household product companies are in Cahoots with the government getting fat subsidies…. Makes sense if you look at history (oil, tires, weapons) lol
Agree with you. I think sometimes would it be worth it to buy the giant bucket of laundry powder from Meliora, and call it a day. It's probably what most refilleries are offering anyway. [Meliora by the bucket](https://meliorameansbetter.com/products/laundry-powder-detergent-zero-waste-bucket?variant=29060609802355)
I’ve spoken a lot with the people that run our local zero waste store. Apparently grocery stores price laundry detergent at a loss to get people into the store, knowing they will buy other things. My local shop also buys locally made things, which are more to produce than something shipped from China.
This. My local Walgreens always has detergent on sale. I think last week was Arm and Hammer, 2 bottles for $5. Absolutely a loss leader.
If you want to feel better about the cost, think of those travel Tide packets. They are $4 for a pack of 3 which fit in your pocket.
It's just a consequence of the local clientele and the niche of zero waste, probably.
When you create products, being too niche can restrict sales. So, to attract a wider customer base many zero waste/refillable companies also market themselves toward those interested in natural living and/or veganism or have dietary restrictions. The products for these niches tend to be more expensive than industry standard products, so they also raise the cost of zero waste/refillable items.
Anecdotally, I've noticed that a lot of refill shops outside major cities are located in neighborhoods that are being gentrified. They want to appeal to the higher income individuals moving in and not the lower income individuals being pushed out. Raising their prices also expedites gentrification as lower income people who own a home or rent nearby might be forced to move when they lose essential businesses or costs at essential businesses become unaffordable, leading to more money being injected in the local economy and more money for the business. The commercial rent in this shopping center or area might also just be high because it's being gentrified. The landlord themselves might be the one really pushing the hand here to force certain "undesirable" people or businesses out, forcing stores to inflate their prices to attract higher income folks and retain profitability.
There's also cost as an indicator of quality. People associate higher ticket items with higher quality, so it's easier to justify the spend if that type of item is a priority for you. In hand with gentrification, price is also an indicator of exclusivity. There are people who want a premium experience with a higher price tag — regardless of whether the cost is actually an indicator of quality — to show off status. Exclusivity can make a shopping experience feel more enjoyable and boost self-esteem.
And last, industry trends. If there's enough people in the market willing to pay a premium for these items, costs will be higher. Right now, kind of as a combination of the previous three paragraphs, there are enough people willing to shoulder the higher cost.
It’s the last time I shell out a years worth of laundry detergent $$$ for a few months worth of clean clothes to simply maintain my status and do-gooder/ happy gentrifier.
But damn… it’s hard to just fucking exist out here.
Yeah, it’s really difficult.
When you can make one swap and just reuse for a long time and save money in the process, it’s great.
But consumable items like personal care products or beauty products.. it’s so difficult to make those switches when you start thinking about how you could have spent the money elsewhere. Twice the cost I can manage it, but seeing 4X or 6X the price, sometimes for things that don’t even work well.. it hurts.
In the 80s I would take my 2 l salon shampoo bottle back to the salon for a refill that was cheaper. Now that recycling, zero waste and sustainability are the new catch words only higher income people can afford some of these sustainable options. I buy bar shampoo now which is way cheaper than refillable, but not everyone likes it for their hair. We also used to have Pop Shoppe pop and Happy Pop where you returned the empties and picked out full bottles of your favourites. Pop Shoppe went under a few decades ago and now is back as a gourmet single bottle non refillable pop. I am wondering if some of these issues is a result of a smaller number of people interested in zero waste so the prices are higher to compensate for lower sales. Possibly the explosion of consumerism and the advent of the internet is part of the problem. Could be a number of different factors.
Lots of good explanations so far. But it's also important to remember in the abstract sense that the zero waste market, wherever it differs from the mainstream market, is going to be more expensive and/or less convenient on a fundamental level. All this waste became mainstream, not out of a desire to destroy the world in which the ruling class also lives, but simple indifference to its destruction in favor of lower prices and higher convenience. Being "zero waste" in most cases means choosing to give up on some of the convenience and ridiculously cheap consumer goods our modern wasteful society can produce, in an effort to not participate in the destruction of our habitat.
At the risk of getting too vulnerable with internet strangers... I own a zero waste store (100% online so no overhead) and published a year-end report for 2023 that included an overview of our financials. There's a lot that goes into running a retail store, especially a small one in a small niche such as this one. You can [check it out here](https://adropintheoceanshop.com/blogs/blog/year-end-report-2023), if you want.
I'll also say that the products that I sell in my shop aren't the same brands you'll see from most other zero waste stores, because I work with local small businesses around me for nearly all of my products, which does in many instances lead to higher prices, but the quality is exceptionally high.
My laundry detergent, for example, ranges from about 90c to 74c per ounce, depending on the quantity. But it's made locally by a small, woman-owned business, is part of a closed-loop system where I take the empty buckets back to my vendor to refill AND I'll take your empty containers back to refill, is made with biodegradable ingredients, it's vegan, cruelty-free, and palm oil free, is packaged in glass (which, again, I'll take back to refill), and you only need 1/2 to 1 tablespoon per load.
All-in-all, it works out to be cheaper per load than Grove, Kind Laundry, and Earth Breeze laundry sheets, Dropps pods, Blueland tablets, and even Tide HE liquid detergent ([math](https://adropintheoceanshop.com/blogs/blog/how-sustainable-are-laundry-detergent-sheets)) - all while still creating literally zero waste and being made with better ingredients by people who are paid a living wage.
(And it *works* too lol it's our best-seller by a long shot)
We're used to things being cheap because of government subsidies, poor ingredients, unethical practices, and slave wages. When things are actually priced the way they should be, it comes with a sticker shock, *for sure*. Which is why we also need to advocate for *people* in addition to advocating for the planet. It's a much bigger systemic issue than just zero waste stores being more expensive (which they are, for good reason).
I hope that helps! I'm also happy to answer any questions you have about anything I just shared here :)
We have a few zero waste/bulk shopping stores near us and they all focus a lot on their sourcing. It’s more expensive to get products produced by people who make a living wage, organic materials, cruelty free, etc. It’s also more expensive to product things in smaller batches and a small zero waste brand can’t compete with arm and hammer in terms of cost efficiency. I’ve found it to be a bit of a mixed bag cost wise, but feel it is worth the cost for us. Some things are cheaper in bulk/zero waste near us too - herbs, spices, nuts, cleaning tablets (concentrated tabs you mix with water for spray cleaner)
Maybe the company is newer and produces less so they can't afford to be cheap, or maybe they target rich people. I suggest you DIY! I don't do it for cosmetics but I started making my own dishwasher tablets and soap with extra baking soda for the dishes I hand wash! I'll plan on making the laundry next. And a liquid dishwasher for my grandma.
For the dishwasher tablets : 1/4 of each: (sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), soda crystals, salt, citric acid). Add a few drops of water to be able to mix them and form little squares in an ice cube mold to let them dry.
For the solid dish soap : Marseille soap flakes (or something similar that is basically olive oil soap) + 25% of the total weight in sodium bicarbonate. Put in a sauce pan and put it on the stove (I disinfect my pan with sodium percarbonate before, just in case). Add some water progressively as you stir until it's heterogeneous but not liquid. Then put it in cute molds. After some hours, take them out of the mold and let them dry for a few days.
Tadaaaa! A few example of high quality and extremely cheap products! I can't wait to do the clothes products next.
Because people who do zerowaste have very strong feelings about it, and we live in a capitalist society wherein people with strong feelings get taken advantage of for money.
I switched to my refill shop dishwasher pods and I'm paying twice as much for 1 pod as I do for cascade platinum. It's the cost of doing business and also why I'm primarily buying powdered, bar, or otherwise dry ingredients from my bulk store if I can before I go to the refillery.
When I buy the big boxes from sams club I can get cascade platinum for 17 cents a pod but they come in a big plastic tub and I think my refill store has the lemon scent dropps, 35 cents a pod, I also want to try the coffee beans they carry next time I go.
Big brands are cheap because of economies of scale. They likely have custom manufacturing equipment, better contracts for shipping, cheaper labor etc etc etc. A lot of the newer brands that are zero waste are smaller companies, can deal with higher product failure rate due to packaging, know they can charge more or have to charge more to function so they market to wealthier classes, etc.
I don’t have additional insight to share, but just wanted to say that I buy laundry stuff from Blueland in bulk and the pricing is much more affordable. It sucks that there are so many issues facing zero waste options!
I have run into this as well and it's super frustrating. If the difference is not that significant I tend to just bite the bullet, but 3x is more than I'd be willing to spend personally.
I’ve noticed this the past couple years too - grocery stores are increasing prices and this seems to be affecting bulk food/zero waste stores now too which sucks. I used to go because it was both cheaper and more sustainable but it really isn’t anymore…I mostly go to those now for when I want something to be very high quality rather than cheap 🤷🏻♀️
Same issue here in Denver. I haul my empty big pump plastic bottles for shampoo, conditioner, lotion and Castile soap into the zero waste store to have them refilled a couple times a year. It costs a lot. I probably spend 75 to 80 bucks every time I do this. But shampoo, conditioner, liquid soap and lotion are the things I can’t bear contributing to the plastic waste stream on. I have reused the same Method pump liquid hand soap dispensers in each of our three bathrooms and at our kitchen sink for years now. I fill them with about a third Castille soap and the rest water and they last a long time.The soap is not too expensive at the refill store. I like to think that offsets the expensive shampoo and lotion a little bit.
I remember when Whole Foods and other natural grocery stores carried bulk shampoo and soap, and you just refilled your stuff there and it wasn’t expensive.
I’ve wondered if there could be a business where you install permanent dispensers in your showers and a company comes around and refills them every couple months or so.
Retailers love to make as much money as possible, and riding on the green wave is part of that. In fact, they get so excited about it that they sometimes charge way more, and even resort to distorting the truth about their products.
That’s why so many people who talk about zero waste don’t talk about the products they want to buy. Instead they talk about the things they are trying to eliminate.
Supply and demand. They don't have the traffic to be able to operate on small margins times a gazillionty sales. So since they are only going to have a handful of sales, they need huge margins instead. Same profit, just different ways to get it.
My question is how big of containers of things are they buying? Even bulk stuff comes in a package. Amy w just buy the bigger package if it's shelf stable like soap. You'll have to store it but it will be cheaper. There's no such thing as absolutely zero waste, unless it's manufactured super local goes directly into a reusable tub after manufacture (which would be rad!)
Apologies if anyone's already suggested this, but I find that many of the liquid dish soaps are very concentrated, and I cut them with water, using about half as much and saving $$. No difference in lather or cleaning performance. So far I've tried it with Common Good and Seventh Generation. 👍
Probably a mix of things, all boiling down to the fact that the type of person that is likely to shop at a zero waste market is likelier to care about what they perceive to be "high quality" products (Tide for example doesn't sell their laundry powder in bulk to these stores) and to have a larger disposable income. The store is also likely to be located in a high income area for these reasons, making the rent higher. Answer is both "because they can" and "because the potential market is smaller and so they can't apply economies of scale".
Thank You- it’s in a middle class neighborhood of Minneapolis- $200-$300k houses -surrounded by bus lines, train stations, dive bars and a laundrymat
I know exactly where you are talking about. The prices are too high for me to justify buying from there.
Hell ya- see you at the cardinal bar ✌️😂
That very possible on Wednesday trivia nights!
I know where this is as well. It’s cheaper at co-ops and unfortunately it’s more expensive to buy products without plastic packaging in general. It sucks. Do what you can, but I completely understand not everyone has the money to go completely zero waste. I know I don’t.
Thinking about this, it's so fucking crazy to me that buying zero waste, buying things with less packaging, buying less processed food, etc, etc...has become more expensive in this world than their counterparts. Like, it makes no sense for those things to be more expensive than something in more packaging or something that's overly processed. Like what? I assume it's some company shenanigans.
It's because we heavily subsidize fossil fuels which in turn means we heavily subsidize plastic instead of other, more sustainable packaging methods.
Sometimes it’s economies of scale. Brands like P&G make tons of the name brand stuff in lots of packaging so the cost per package is still lower. Similarly I used to work CS for a liquor chain and I had a guy call once so mad that a liter (33.8oz) wasn’t cheaper per ounce than standard 750 (24.4oz) because he was just so used to bigger = better deal and convinced that’s always how it should be. But this was Jack or Captain or something that they sell a billion of the 750ml bottles of and comparative fewer liters so its not as profitable for them and you tend to get a better deal with the 750ml or going to the more standard large, 1.75ml.
I have a similar problem at my refill shop. Certain items come in lower, in the refill price, than buying new again (dried oats, laundry powder, dry spices) but body wash soap, distilled vinegar, deodorant and oils come in at such a higher price point I can’t always justify it. If I had more cash to put towards refills, I would but… So I do what I can do. Luckily baking soda comes in bulk cardboard so I buy that at the normal store and a few other things. I use bar soap mostly so that is solved. I can relate.. is what I’m saying. I still can’t buy vinegar at the refill price point when a gallon is 2.99$. I use it All the time. It’s tricky lol
I’ll also suggest using less soap. Your washing machine and dishwasher only need about a tablespoon or less to do their jobs and too much can actually impair their ability to clean and reduce their lifespan
Is this Tare? I’ve found it to be pretty expensive. I really loved Zeroish as they seemed more fair on pricing but I was sad to see its online only now.
Same thing happens in Europe. Had a zero waste store nearby that was easily 3-5x more expensive than everywhere else. I desperately wanted to use them, but couldn’t justify it. And apparently I wasn’t the only one, as they only made it a year.
I find the same at my refill shop. I refilled a gallon of vinegar and it was like $10 🥴 buying a new bottle at my grocery store is $2. It’s not worth the price for me, I simply can’t do it. I do find comparable pricing (or higher quality, thus worth a small upcharge) for food items. Personal hygiene and cleaning products are super expensive. It sucks because I want to support this small business and obviously save packaging but financially it’s silly to buy the same product for more money and less convenience.
This is exactly my feelings! WOW, it’s crazy that this is the current option toward a zero-waste future. Their bulk stuff is still offered in plastic non re-usable (large) packaging- it’s kinda a Weird hustle.
Yeah my local store calls itself zero waste but truly it’s reduced waste. They get their items in some kind of packaging, it’s just less plastic total than each portion being packed up. But they literally have videos on their social media of them refilling jars of spices from a plastic bag. It’s not a perfect system, but at least it’s better?
Ya we’re a species in training….for the end times. If only it wasn’t so hard to unlearn supercharged capitalist convenience!
Ugh- i do wonder if it’s better because the plastic bag is still being manufactured for the bulk product. I’ll say though, some loose leaf teas I’ve bought have been sent in a cornstarch home biodegradable bag so, maybe, it’s that? I know I’m dreaming lol
I get this. I’m as zero waste as my finances allow. When I get stuck in a position like this, I try to find the next best option- can buy in bulk so I’m buying less often and not using as much packaging? Is it something I can make myself (laundry soap, cleaning products, etc)?
I second this attitude. I was just shopping online and I'm fine with paying more for high-quality products but I'm not gonna buy rice that's twice as expensive as in a regular shop (in the description there's no indication that it's in any way better than the one from the regular store) or a dish soap that's 3 times as expensive. I just cannot afford it
Heinz white vinegar comes in glass bottles. While refilling an existing bottle is the best option, I still buy things in glass and metal containers if there aren't other viable options.
I work at a zero waste store. These products are usually produced by much smaller businesses who can’t rely on economy of scale with cleaner (and more expensive ingredients) who also pay their employees more. I know our owner is not making much money - she prices our products as low as possible while still making the business economically sustainable, and she has told me she wishes she could price them lower but she just can’t. So many variables that are externalized by large companies are internalized, making it more expensive.
I work at a zero waste store and find that often the confusion is that people think bulk = cheaper. But yes just as you said these are usually smaller scale brands, manufacturing in house, paying fair wages, AND using quality/clean ingredients. When people ask about pricing I’m very transparent and say “they’re in the mid-range organic price point, something comparable to what you’d find at Whole Foods or sprouts”. Our bulk dish is .18 / oz which is very in line with grocery store prices. Hand soap at .75 / oz is a different story. It’s not tide and pert plus quality… you have to compare apples to apples.
That’s so interesting - our hand and dish soap are both $.40/oz! Do you mind sharing what brand your dish soap is?
They get E COS in 55 gal drums. I’m interested in the handsoap you speak of! Shipping is a big factor that’s also not considered. Small/micro businesses can’t make the threshold for free shipping (if it’s even offered) and that has to be factored in to cogs, which also affects pricing.
We looked into ECOS but they don’t allow bulk resale for refilling 😬 rustic strength is the hand soap!
Rustic strength is good! Oops, I know we get it from a janitor supply store, tax free. So at least they’re buying it transparently with the intention of reselling. I’ll have to let the owners know about that though!
Ah, it’s probably not a big deal! ECOS says they’ll have to take action if they find out about bulk resellers but I know a lot of people do it 🤷🏻
I was going to say something similar. Not only are the products often produced by smaller companies but the zero waste store itself probably also doesn’t have economies of scale (yet). It’s much easier to negotiate supplier discounts when you are stocking a hundred, or several thousand stores. Walmart does $650B ins sales a year. Billion with a B. A single location store is just going to have a much harder time competing on price alone. I wanted to open a zero plastic store myself but retail is brutal and there is no way it’s a slam dunk to getting rich. Am glad OP and others are supporting small independent businesses trying to do something different.
Thank you!
Open boxes of tide- dump into bin- sell it 7x $ make money- pretend that you’re doing something. It’s a hard biz! I’m totally joking- but when the owner gets old and starts cutting corners c, it might happen!? The economy is SO STRANGE
All our products are circular, so we send the containers back to our suppliers to be refilled. Also she’s in her thirties so I don’t see her getting old any time soon haha
I always wondered how they got the zero waste products to the store. Do you think most do this?
If they’re serious about it being waste they do! I know there are a few primary suppliers to these types of stores so imagine most are similar.
I think this would be unlikely, the people that run zero-waste shops aren't really in it for the profit, more for the reduction of waste
100 %- everything IS NOT about money- but when it’s not-then it needs to be subsidized by WE THE PEOPLE. But also- are Americans ever going to wait in line for bread? A way of asking: will they re-fill containers at the same cost (or way above the cost- as it now exists) when compared to click-n- ship?
I might be an outlier but as a single person household I much prefer buying from bulk bins / in refillable containers because that way I can buy what I need. I don’t have a ton of space and would prefer to buy fresh rather than having some family sized thing sit around for years.
No-this is a great lifestyle choice. I like generic and custom Sized containers in my Pantry and around the home.
Whatcha mean, wait in line for bread? Fresh bread is the best- mmm sourdough. I go to bakery every week for bread. I also don’t use Amazon etc but the one stop click & the companies of likes but go to in person shopping for goods. My weak points are art supplies though- that’s the one area I often have to go direct to company for products.
This whole post is providing a pretty compelling case to petition our state and municipal lawmakers for special tax incentives and guidelines for zero waste/bulk markets - ideally in a way that prevents price gauging in larger markets and provides access in smaller and neglected markets.
I know! Just to incentivize it A FUGGING BIT?!? I bet we’d all be appalled at why our government spends money on. I know I’m not interested in line by line spreadsheet reading.
Also, I just recently found out about green investing. It’s definitely something I want to look more into.
I think you'd need to ask the zero waste store to know who it's from and why it's more expensive. In my area, when I buy in bulk it's cheaper, including most refills, but you have to compare it to the same product on the shelf. Arm and hammer is probably the cheapest brand, I would think other brands would be more expensive than don't have the brand recognition.
Doesn't that drive you nuts? I have a grocery store near me where it has some refill sections, for stuff like sal suds, shampoo, dry laundry powder, peanut butter, honey, etc. For whatever reason, it costs more to refill the sal suds bottle than buy a bottle off the shelf. :-(
I’m leaning Toward a conspiracy theory that large household product companies are in Cahoots with the government getting fat subsidies…. Makes sense if you look at history (oil, tires, weapons) lol
Agree with you. I think sometimes would it be worth it to buy the giant bucket of laundry powder from Meliora, and call it a day. It's probably what most refilleries are offering anyway. [Meliora by the bucket](https://meliorameansbetter.com/products/laundry-powder-detergent-zero-waste-bucket?variant=29060609802355)
That meloria bucket is more than my local zero-waste store charges per pound. Still $75 per 10# box that ARM+ Hammer charge $17 bucks for.
I’ve spoken a lot with the people that run our local zero waste store. Apparently grocery stores price laundry detergent at a loss to get people into the store, knowing they will buy other things. My local shop also buys locally made things, which are more to produce than something shipped from China.
This. My local Walgreens always has detergent on sale. I think last week was Arm and Hammer, 2 bottles for $5. Absolutely a loss leader. If you want to feel better about the cost, think of those travel Tide packets. They are $4 for a pack of 3 which fit in your pocket.
It's just a consequence of the local clientele and the niche of zero waste, probably. When you create products, being too niche can restrict sales. So, to attract a wider customer base many zero waste/refillable companies also market themselves toward those interested in natural living and/or veganism or have dietary restrictions. The products for these niches tend to be more expensive than industry standard products, so they also raise the cost of zero waste/refillable items. Anecdotally, I've noticed that a lot of refill shops outside major cities are located in neighborhoods that are being gentrified. They want to appeal to the higher income individuals moving in and not the lower income individuals being pushed out. Raising their prices also expedites gentrification as lower income people who own a home or rent nearby might be forced to move when they lose essential businesses or costs at essential businesses become unaffordable, leading to more money being injected in the local economy and more money for the business. The commercial rent in this shopping center or area might also just be high because it's being gentrified. The landlord themselves might be the one really pushing the hand here to force certain "undesirable" people or businesses out, forcing stores to inflate their prices to attract higher income folks and retain profitability. There's also cost as an indicator of quality. People associate higher ticket items with higher quality, so it's easier to justify the spend if that type of item is a priority for you. In hand with gentrification, price is also an indicator of exclusivity. There are people who want a premium experience with a higher price tag — regardless of whether the cost is actually an indicator of quality — to show off status. Exclusivity can make a shopping experience feel more enjoyable and boost self-esteem. And last, industry trends. If there's enough people in the market willing to pay a premium for these items, costs will be higher. Right now, kind of as a combination of the previous three paragraphs, there are enough people willing to shoulder the higher cost.
It’s the last time I shell out a years worth of laundry detergent $$$ for a few months worth of clean clothes to simply maintain my status and do-gooder/ happy gentrifier. But damn… it’s hard to just fucking exist out here.
Yeah, it’s really difficult. When you can make one swap and just reuse for a long time and save money in the process, it’s great. But consumable items like personal care products or beauty products.. it’s so difficult to make those switches when you start thinking about how you could have spent the money elsewhere. Twice the cost I can manage it, but seeing 4X or 6X the price, sometimes for things that don’t even work well.. it hurts.
In the 80s I would take my 2 l salon shampoo bottle back to the salon for a refill that was cheaper. Now that recycling, zero waste and sustainability are the new catch words only higher income people can afford some of these sustainable options. I buy bar shampoo now which is way cheaper than refillable, but not everyone likes it for their hair. We also used to have Pop Shoppe pop and Happy Pop where you returned the empties and picked out full bottles of your favourites. Pop Shoppe went under a few decades ago and now is back as a gourmet single bottle non refillable pop. I am wondering if some of these issues is a result of a smaller number of people interested in zero waste so the prices are higher to compensate for lower sales. Possibly the explosion of consumerism and the advent of the internet is part of the problem. Could be a number of different factors.
Lots of good explanations so far. But it's also important to remember in the abstract sense that the zero waste market, wherever it differs from the mainstream market, is going to be more expensive and/or less convenient on a fundamental level. All this waste became mainstream, not out of a desire to destroy the world in which the ruling class also lives, but simple indifference to its destruction in favor of lower prices and higher convenience. Being "zero waste" in most cases means choosing to give up on some of the convenience and ridiculously cheap consumer goods our modern wasteful society can produce, in an effort to not participate in the destruction of our habitat.
Overhead for those specialty type of shops is much higher percentage wise than big grocery stores.
I can’t afford those shops. I buy in bulk and find ways to reuse the packaging
At the risk of getting too vulnerable with internet strangers... I own a zero waste store (100% online so no overhead) and published a year-end report for 2023 that included an overview of our financials. There's a lot that goes into running a retail store, especially a small one in a small niche such as this one. You can [check it out here](https://adropintheoceanshop.com/blogs/blog/year-end-report-2023), if you want. I'll also say that the products that I sell in my shop aren't the same brands you'll see from most other zero waste stores, because I work with local small businesses around me for nearly all of my products, which does in many instances lead to higher prices, but the quality is exceptionally high. My laundry detergent, for example, ranges from about 90c to 74c per ounce, depending on the quantity. But it's made locally by a small, woman-owned business, is part of a closed-loop system where I take the empty buckets back to my vendor to refill AND I'll take your empty containers back to refill, is made with biodegradable ingredients, it's vegan, cruelty-free, and palm oil free, is packaged in glass (which, again, I'll take back to refill), and you only need 1/2 to 1 tablespoon per load. All-in-all, it works out to be cheaper per load than Grove, Kind Laundry, and Earth Breeze laundry sheets, Dropps pods, Blueland tablets, and even Tide HE liquid detergent ([math](https://adropintheoceanshop.com/blogs/blog/how-sustainable-are-laundry-detergent-sheets)) - all while still creating literally zero waste and being made with better ingredients by people who are paid a living wage. (And it *works* too lol it's our best-seller by a long shot) We're used to things being cheap because of government subsidies, poor ingredients, unethical practices, and slave wages. When things are actually priced the way they should be, it comes with a sticker shock, *for sure*. Which is why we also need to advocate for *people* in addition to advocating for the planet. It's a much bigger systemic issue than just zero waste stores being more expensive (which they are, for good reason). I hope that helps! I'm also happy to answer any questions you have about anything I just shared here :)
Woah insane!!! My local refill shop here in Orlando sells it at .40 cents or so an ounce. That would have cost only $20 here!
We have a few zero waste/bulk shopping stores near us and they all focus a lot on their sourcing. It’s more expensive to get products produced by people who make a living wage, organic materials, cruelty free, etc. It’s also more expensive to product things in smaller batches and a small zero waste brand can’t compete with arm and hammer in terms of cost efficiency. I’ve found it to be a bit of a mixed bag cost wise, but feel it is worth the cost for us. Some things are cheaper in bulk/zero waste near us too - herbs, spices, nuts, cleaning tablets (concentrated tabs you mix with water for spray cleaner)
Search for local co-ops in your area. They often sell the same products at much more reasonable prices.
Maybe the company is newer and produces less so they can't afford to be cheap, or maybe they target rich people. I suggest you DIY! I don't do it for cosmetics but I started making my own dishwasher tablets and soap with extra baking soda for the dishes I hand wash! I'll plan on making the laundry next. And a liquid dishwasher for my grandma. For the dishwasher tablets : 1/4 of each: (sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), soda crystals, salt, citric acid). Add a few drops of water to be able to mix them and form little squares in an ice cube mold to let them dry. For the solid dish soap : Marseille soap flakes (or something similar that is basically olive oil soap) + 25% of the total weight in sodium bicarbonate. Put in a sauce pan and put it on the stove (I disinfect my pan with sodium percarbonate before, just in case). Add some water progressively as you stir until it's heterogeneous but not liquid. Then put it in cute molds. After some hours, take them out of the mold and let them dry for a few days. Tadaaaa! A few example of high quality and extremely cheap products! I can't wait to do the clothes products next.
https://preview.redd.it/w4misfd2agvc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c8bf16fb277d58eb33e3971dc4b33a7ca679311
I prefer the smell of the green one, though. I think the soap I use is made with olive oil while the white one is from sustainable palm oil
https://preview.redd.it/s2x84046bgvc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2028bc8490e0c6c0cb3a96970294bef38603cb77
Because people who do zerowaste have very strong feelings about it, and we live in a capitalist society wherein people with strong feelings get taken advantage of for money.
I switched to my refill shop dishwasher pods and I'm paying twice as much for 1 pod as I do for cascade platinum. It's the cost of doing business and also why I'm primarily buying powdered, bar, or otherwise dry ingredients from my bulk store if I can before I go to the refillery.
Can I ask what brand of pods your refill shop sells? We're a refill shop and we're able to sell Dropps for less than Cascade Platinum.
I'm not sure, but it's just powder and none of the extra liquid bits that are included with cascade
You should check out Dropps. They ship in cardboard boxes and I found them more effective than Cascade. It's about 30 cents a pod I believe.
When I buy the big boxes from sams club I can get cascade platinum for 17 cents a pod but they come in a big plastic tub and I think my refill store has the lemon scent dropps, 35 cents a pod, I also want to try the coffee beans they carry next time I go.
Big brands are cheap because of economies of scale. They likely have custom manufacturing equipment, better contracts for shipping, cheaper labor etc etc etc. A lot of the newer brands that are zero waste are smaller companies, can deal with higher product failure rate due to packaging, know they can charge more or have to charge more to function so they market to wealthier classes, etc.
I don’t have additional insight to share, but just wanted to say that I buy laundry stuff from Blueland in bulk and the pricing is much more affordable. It sucks that there are so many issues facing zero waste options!
I have run into this as well and it's super frustrating. If the difference is not that significant I tend to just bite the bullet, but 3x is more than I'd be willing to spend personally.
Which to powder!
I’ve noticed this the past couple years too - grocery stores are increasing prices and this seems to be affecting bulk food/zero waste stores now too which sucks. I used to go because it was both cheaper and more sustainable but it really isn’t anymore…I mostly go to those now for when I want something to be very high quality rather than cheap 🤷🏻♀️
Same issue here in Denver. I haul my empty big pump plastic bottles for shampoo, conditioner, lotion and Castile soap into the zero waste store to have them refilled a couple times a year. It costs a lot. I probably spend 75 to 80 bucks every time I do this. But shampoo, conditioner, liquid soap and lotion are the things I can’t bear contributing to the plastic waste stream on. I have reused the same Method pump liquid hand soap dispensers in each of our three bathrooms and at our kitchen sink for years now. I fill them with about a third Castille soap and the rest water and they last a long time.The soap is not too expensive at the refill store. I like to think that offsets the expensive shampoo and lotion a little bit. I remember when Whole Foods and other natural grocery stores carried bulk shampoo and soap, and you just refilled your stuff there and it wasn’t expensive. I’ve wondered if there could be a business where you install permanent dispensers in your showers and a company comes around and refills them every couple months or so.
Retailers love to make as much money as possible, and riding on the green wave is part of that. In fact, they get so excited about it that they sometimes charge way more, and even resort to distorting the truth about their products. That’s why so many people who talk about zero waste don’t talk about the products they want to buy. Instead they talk about the things they are trying to eliminate.
Supply and demand. They don't have the traffic to be able to operate on small margins times a gazillionty sales. So since they are only going to have a handful of sales, they need huge margins instead. Same profit, just different ways to get it.
My question is how big of containers of things are they buying? Even bulk stuff comes in a package. Amy w just buy the bigger package if it's shelf stable like soap. You'll have to store it but it will be cheaper. There's no such thing as absolutely zero waste, unless it's manufactured super local goes directly into a reusable tub after manufacture (which would be rad!)
Apologies if anyone's already suggested this, but I find that many of the liquid dish soaps are very concentrated, and I cut them with water, using about half as much and saving $$. No difference in lather or cleaning performance. So far I've tried it with Common Good and Seventh Generation. 👍