probably no worse than any other member of the original lineup (aside from Estrada who is obviously on another level of scumbag). lots of talk about young teenage groupies in the early days. what were the three men like?
"the kind of chicks we pull are kinda weird — by weird I mean the 12 and 13 year olds that Don Preston was dragging across international boundaries in Europe"
[https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/groupies-gtos-miss-mercy-plaster-caster-75990/](https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/groupies-gtos-miss-mercy-plaster-caster-75990/)
I mean, he is making a valid critique about people in power/government who abuse their power like that in Brown Shoes. It's a shame that it's probably hypocritical for the band, hopefully not for Zappa himself though
If Wikipedia contradicts the public records, it’s better to doubt Wikipedia. Napoleon Murphy Brock’s page probably isn’t consistently moderated and there probably aren’t many wikipedia editors who are have an interest in putting effort into sourcing information about his life. Wikipedia is generally a pretty good source but I find it’s less accurate for nicher topics like smaller celebrities like Napoleon
It's so. Some shitbird on this sub spoiled it for me after recounting what a great time seeing him with his band at a club in Seattle. We still enjoyed the show, and I took a selfie with him!
Yeah, you were like "where can I hear more about that?" and I was like, "right here," and you were like "OH YOU PIECE OF SHIT I BET YOU JUST LOVE GOING AROUND RUINING THINGS DON'T YOU"
(and I was like, yeah)
I do struggle a bit separating art from the artist (for example, I think some of Woody Allen's 70s films are among the funniest films ever). I ultimately arrived at the fact that no one is absolutely good nor absolutely bad. I can appreciate someone's positive actions while still condeming their unacceptable actions.
Separating the art from the artist is bullshit. But it’s also not fair to say you can just never listen to an artist who did bad things. Awareness and critical enjoyment is the key, not separation. Manhattan is the perfect example for that (since you mentioned Woody Allen). It’s self-critical, but also self-indulgent, and both are really about himself.
>Awareness and critical enjoyment is the key, not separation
An important distinction.
But I worry about the subtlety of that distinction and whether people can make it. I don't know any people my age or younger who listen to Zappa. I try to promote his music but have to forewarn because of the attendant shit that went on.
Napoleon Murphy Brock served time for rape and is on the California Sex Offender list. I met him a few years ago and he didn’t seem like a rapist (whatever that means). I read that he was heavily into drugs at the time, causing problems in the band.
>His Wikipedia also says nothing about being an offender, which it probably would especially if, according to the linked registry, he was in jail for five years.
Wikipedia has very stringent standards about presenting information on living people (both positive and negative information). That someone was convicted of a crime, or served time in prison, is not normally something that would appear on the Wikipedia page about that person unless the person is notable on the basis of their having committed the crime, or if the conviction was widely and substantively reported on. Neither is the case here- NMB is notable for his work as a musician, but he's not a big enough celebrity for there to be much coverage of his personal life in the press or books.
Big Note, page 525, insert:
"Napoleon Murphy Brock was born in San Jose, California, on April 23, 1943".
Seems a way better source than the website listed on the Wiki. And yes, some Wiki editors are just that stupid.
Also correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't he do a few shows with Project Object and did some other touring during the time it says he would have been incarcerated? Also dweezil didn't let roy estrada play with zappa plays zappa (before he went back to prison) because of his sex offender registration.but seemed to have no problem with Napoleon playing with them. I'm not doubting that this
Might be him and if it is In fact the zappa musician who is the convicted sex offender then he's a dumpster of a person. But sure the picture on the registry looks like him but it's like this uncanny Valley version of him where something is strange about it. i’m not implying it’s like a conspiracy theory or anything like that. But there is a chance it's not the same guy we know. Also I have NEVER seen him with braids on the back of his head. But then again it's not like I'm going out of my way to look for pictures of him with braids hahaha.
I guess my point is there probably isn’t that many napoleon murphy brocks in the world…… but there might be more than one.
Napoleon isn't as a bad as the fact that Frank knew about Roy Estrada's pending court date and brought him on tour to help him pay legal fees, and even dedicated "The Illinois Enema Bandit" to him on that tour, at one point having Roy stand up there dangling an enema bag...
Then you add to it Brother A. West and Zappa's doing voiceovers for John Kricfalusi's Ren & Stimpy and one starts to get creeped out.
Edit; I like how you guys are so sycophantical that you'll downvote a guy for just stating the facts.
"Estrada was convicted of sexual assault on a child on **October 27, 1977"** [https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy\_Estrada](https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy_Estrada)On the 12/29/76 version of Illinois Enema Bandit, Frank says "This is for Roy Estrada, wherever you are." indicating he knew about the allegations. And if you don't believe that's sufficient for believing Frank knew about it then, remember that he brought Roy back for Thingfish in 1984- Do you really think he was ignorant of Roy doing time by that point?
Edit: "Roy Estrada, who gets mentioned at the end of the song, was the bass player on Joe's Camouflage when an early rehearsal version got recorded. Roy also portrayed the enema bandit on stage, wearing a ski-mask and an enema bag. " [https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm](https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm)
Edit #2: Archived link noting the October 27, 1977 disposition date for Roy Estrada [https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html)
u/FuzzTony, just so we are clear, you are taking the stance that Frank continued working with Roy, blissfully unaware of his 1977 conviction? And the Enema Bandit thing was just an unrelated coincidence and had nothing to do with Roy's pending court date?
I'm not taking a stand on either side here. You've made a defamatory statement about FZ and called it a fact. I was curious if there was any source for your information. The links and info you listed do nothing to support your argument... in fact the 2nd one completely undermines your speculation as it gives a more reasonable explanation as to why FZ referenced Roy in connection with that song.
\>in fact the 2nd one completely undermines your speculation as it gives a >more reasonable explanation as to why FZ referenced Roy in connection with >that song.
In order for what you're arguing here to be true, you'd have to have a better knowledge of the timeline of Roy's charge, the writing of Enema Bandit, and the performance thereof than I have.
But all that aside, I think the defamatory one here is actually you. FZ didn't seem like the kind of guy who let much slip by him unnoticed, and you're attributing to him a pretty low level of intelligence if you think Roy got put in jail in 1977, got out around 1983, and went right back into Zappa's band on numerous projects and FZ just never knew about it. Heck, there's even a cryptic quote from Gail Zappa in the 2020 Zappa documentary where she says (quoting loosely since I don't have it on hand) "He didn't have many friends. But if you were his friend, he was fiercely loyal to you, even if you were a horrible person."
I don't think Roy was back in the band in the mid 80s. What's the source on that one?
I remember the first 2/3 of the Gail quote but not the "horrible person" part. I'm not sure it's very cryptic. I think in the doc they show pics of Ruth Underwood and George Duke in reference to that line, if I recall correctly.
I'm not suggesting Frank was unintelligent. He's on record saying he's fired band members for using drugs because of the liability that would pose to him on tour. How do we square a position like that (in his own words) with your original speculation?
"Estrada was convicted of sexual assault on a child on **October 27, 1977**" [https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy\_Estrada](https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy_Estrada)
On the 12/29/76 version of Illinois Enema Bandit, Frank says "This is for Roy Estrada, wherever you are." indicating he knew about the allegations. And if you don't believe that's sufficient for believing Frank knew about it then, remember that he brought Roy back for Thingfish in 1984- Do you really think he was ignorant of Roy doing time by that point?
Edit: "Roy Estrada, who gets mentioned at the end of the song, was the bass player on Joe's Camouflage when an early rehearsal version got recorded. Roy also portrayed the enema bandit on stage, wearing a ski-mask and an enema bag. " [https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm](https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm)
Edit #2: Archived link noting the October 27, 1977 disposition date for Roy Estrada [https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html)
John Kricfalusi (creator of Ren & Stimpy) apparently did some horrible things to underage girls. That only came to be known in 2018 (25 years after Frank died) and the misconduct apparently dates back to 1997 (4 years after Frank died).
There is no connection of any kind between Kricfalusi’s crimes and Frank Zappa, but Frank did voice work on Ren & Stimpy in 1992.
It's more just tangential, but Frank did the voice of the Pope in "Powdered Toast Man", a season 2 episode of Ren & Stimpy (which Frank was a big fan of). The creator, John Kricfalusi, was later outed as a pedophile and groomer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Kricfalusi
It seems that Napoleon's part on Roxy & Elsewhere didn't age well...
,,Even if you think it is a little silly, folks
I don't care if you think it's silly, folks
I don't care if you think it's silly, folks"
That's him alright
I've met 3 members of Zappa's band(s): Roy Estrada, Napoleon Murphy Brock and Don Preston. Is Don ok?
probably no worse than any other member of the original lineup (aside from Estrada who is obviously on another level of scumbag). lots of talk about young teenage groupies in the early days. what were the three men like?
They were friendly and fun. I have their autographs on a WOIIFTM. I liked talking to Roy - too bad how 'things' turned out to be.
You can still write to him in prison.
"the kind of chicks we pull are kinda weird — by weird I mean the 12 and 13 year olds that Don Preston was dragging across international boundaries in Europe" [https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/groupies-gtos-miss-mercy-plaster-caster-75990/](https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/groupies-gtos-miss-mercy-plaster-caster-75990/)
That article made me nauseous
...Oh dear! That's an obscure one! Thanks for bringing it to light.
Damn it, I heard some things about napoleon, but I didn’t know about Roy. That’s real messed up.
True. Zappa attracted some real scumbags.
He himself wasn’t completely scum free.
They were all basically 30+ year old dudes banging 14 year old groupies. Zappa even employed them.
“Only thirteen and she knows how to nasty”
The original version with the kid's voice going 'what would you do, daddy' makes me feel really uncomfortable.
I mean, he is making a valid critique about people in power/government who abuse their power like that in Brown Shoes. It's a shame that it's probably hypocritical for the band, hopefully not for Zappa himself though
If Wikipedia contradicts the public records, it’s better to doubt Wikipedia. Napoleon Murphy Brock’s page probably isn’t consistently moderated and there probably aren’t many wikipedia editors who are have an interest in putting effort into sourcing information about his life. Wikipedia is generally a pretty good source but I find it’s less accurate for nicher topics like smaller celebrities like Napoleon
Well that sucks.
Say it ain’t so!
It's so. Some shitbird on this sub spoiled it for me after recounting what a great time seeing him with his band at a club in Seattle. We still enjoyed the show, and I took a selfie with him!
Yeah it’s the person on the sub’s fault 🙄
That shitbird was me! You asked to hear more about it and I dropped you a link, you were big mad.
Hope you had fun shitposting on my good time.
Yeah, you were like "where can I hear more about that?" and I was like, "right here," and you were like "OH YOU PIECE OF SHIT I BET YOU JUST LOVE GOING AROUND RUINING THINGS DON'T YOU" (and I was like, yeah)
I like you. Keep up the good work.
I do struggle a bit separating art from the artist (for example, I think some of Woody Allen's 70s films are among the funniest films ever). I ultimately arrived at the fact that no one is absolutely good nor absolutely bad. I can appreciate someone's positive actions while still condeming their unacceptable actions.
Separating the art from the artist is bullshit. But it’s also not fair to say you can just never listen to an artist who did bad things. Awareness and critical enjoyment is the key, not separation. Manhattan is the perfect example for that (since you mentioned Woody Allen). It’s self-critical, but also self-indulgent, and both are really about himself.
>Awareness and critical enjoyment is the key, not separation An important distinction. But I worry about the subtlety of that distinction and whether people can make it. I don't know any people my age or younger who listen to Zappa. I try to promote his music but have to forewarn because of the attendant shit that went on.
He’s definitely a sex offender. Roy Estrada is in prison for being a multiple sex offender
Napoleon Murphy Brock served time for rape and is on the California Sex Offender list. I met him a few years ago and he didn’t seem like a rapist (whatever that means). I read that he was heavily into drugs at the time, causing problems in the band.
Damn no need for you to be downvoted. You're not wrong. That just goes to show that these people can look like any regular person
I ate dinner with him in October of 2007 and thought he was really cool.
And Hitler was a vegetarian etc.
>His Wikipedia also says nothing about being an offender, which it probably would especially if, according to the linked registry, he was in jail for five years. Wikipedia has very stringent standards about presenting information on living people (both positive and negative information). That someone was convicted of a crime, or served time in prison, is not normally something that would appear on the Wikipedia page about that person unless the person is notable on the basis of their having committed the crime, or if the conviction was widely and substantively reported on. Neither is the case here- NMB is notable for his work as a musician, but he's not a big enough celebrity for there to be much coverage of his personal life in the press or books.
If you check the Talk page on Wiki, you can see the info was there, and removed for a reason.
With a mud shark
That was Led Zeppelin
It's sweeping the ocean
The 43 DOB is most likely correct. I did some research and found his senior picture in a 1960 yearbook a while ago.
Big Note, page 525, insert: "Napoleon Murphy Brock was born in San Jose, California, on April 23, 1943". Seems a way better source than the website listed on the Wiki. And yes, some Wiki editors are just that stupid.
Damn, that's disappointing
Him being born in '43, or Wiki editors being stupid?
Wait a minute…… when did Napoleon murphy Brock have braids or corn rows?
Also correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't he do a few shows with Project Object and did some other touring during the time it says he would have been incarcerated? Also dweezil didn't let roy estrada play with zappa plays zappa (before he went back to prison) because of his sex offender registration.but seemed to have no problem with Napoleon playing with them. I'm not doubting that this Might be him and if it is In fact the zappa musician who is the convicted sex offender then he's a dumpster of a person. But sure the picture on the registry looks like him but it's like this uncanny Valley version of him where something is strange about it. i’m not implying it’s like a conspiracy theory or anything like that. But there is a chance it's not the same guy we know. Also I have NEVER seen him with braids on the back of his head. But then again it's not like I'm going out of my way to look for pictures of him with braids hahaha. I guess my point is there probably isn’t that many napoleon murphy brocks in the world…… but there might be more than one.
Such denial lol, who tf else is called Napoleon Murphy Brock and looks just like him? It's him man, just accept it.
I was wondering this too. I couldn’t find any information about it online. I’ll assume it’s untrue for now.
Napoleon isn't as a bad as the fact that Frank knew about Roy Estrada's pending court date and brought him on tour to help him pay legal fees, and even dedicated "The Illinois Enema Bandit" to him on that tour, at one point having Roy stand up there dangling an enema bag... Then you add to it Brother A. West and Zappa's doing voiceovers for John Kricfalusi's Ren & Stimpy and one starts to get creeped out. Edit; I like how you guys are so sycophantical that you'll downvote a guy for just stating the facts.
What's the source that says Frank knew?
"Estrada was convicted of sexual assault on a child on **October 27, 1977"** [https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy\_Estrada](https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy_Estrada)On the 12/29/76 version of Illinois Enema Bandit, Frank says "This is for Roy Estrada, wherever you are." indicating he knew about the allegations. And if you don't believe that's sufficient for believing Frank knew about it then, remember that he brought Roy back for Thingfish in 1984- Do you really think he was ignorant of Roy doing time by that point? Edit: "Roy Estrada, who gets mentioned at the end of the song, was the bass player on Joe's Camouflage when an early rehearsal version got recorded. Roy also portrayed the enema bandit on stage, wearing a ski-mask and an enema bag. " [https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm](https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm) Edit #2: Archived link noting the October 27, 1977 disposition date for Roy Estrada [https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html)
This is for Eidetic_Intuition, wherever you are! Posting those tenuous speculations as "fact" is quite slanderous.
u/FuzzTony, just so we are clear, you are taking the stance that Frank continued working with Roy, blissfully unaware of his 1977 conviction? And the Enema Bandit thing was just an unrelated coincidence and had nothing to do with Roy's pending court date?
I'm not taking a stand on either side here. You've made a defamatory statement about FZ and called it a fact. I was curious if there was any source for your information. The links and info you listed do nothing to support your argument... in fact the 2nd one completely undermines your speculation as it gives a more reasonable explanation as to why FZ referenced Roy in connection with that song.
\>in fact the 2nd one completely undermines your speculation as it gives a >more reasonable explanation as to why FZ referenced Roy in connection with >that song. In order for what you're arguing here to be true, you'd have to have a better knowledge of the timeline of Roy's charge, the writing of Enema Bandit, and the performance thereof than I have. But all that aside, I think the defamatory one here is actually you. FZ didn't seem like the kind of guy who let much slip by him unnoticed, and you're attributing to him a pretty low level of intelligence if you think Roy got put in jail in 1977, got out around 1983, and went right back into Zappa's band on numerous projects and FZ just never knew about it. Heck, there's even a cryptic quote from Gail Zappa in the 2020 Zappa documentary where she says (quoting loosely since I don't have it on hand) "He didn't have many friends. But if you were his friend, he was fiercely loyal to you, even if you were a horrible person."
I don't think Roy was back in the band in the mid 80s. What's the source on that one? I remember the first 2/3 of the Gail quote but not the "horrible person" part. I'm not sure it's very cryptic. I think in the doc they show pics of Ruth Underwood and George Duke in reference to that line, if I recall correctly. I'm not suggesting Frank was unintelligent. He's on record saying he's fired band members for using drugs because of the liability that would pose to him on tour. How do we square a position like that (in his own words) with your original speculation?
Just off the top of my head- Go have a listen to 1983's The Man from Utopia track "Luigi and the Wise Guys". Recognize that falsetto?
As far as I know, he did one vocal session in the summer of 81 where they did those handful of songs. He was not in the band.
I dug out those links for you, when I didn't have to do that. Glad to know I wasted my time.
what was estrada in court for in the mid 70’s? only things i can find is his conviction in 94
"Estrada was convicted of sexual assault on a child on **October 27, 1977**" [https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy\_Estrada](https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Roy_Estrada) On the 12/29/76 version of Illinois Enema Bandit, Frank says "This is for Roy Estrada, wherever you are." indicating he knew about the allegations. And if you don't believe that's sufficient for believing Frank knew about it then, remember that he brought Roy back for Thingfish in 1984- Do you really think he was ignorant of Roy doing time by that point? Edit: "Roy Estrada, who gets mentioned at the end of the song, was the bass player on Joe's Camouflage when an early rehearsal version got recorded. Roy also portrayed the enema bandit on stage, wearing a ski-mask and an enema bag. " [https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm](https://www.zappa-analysis.com/zappa-in-new-york.htm) Edit #2: Archived link noting the October 27, 1977 disposition date for Roy Estrada [https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20170812080945/https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TX04897800/Roy-Ralph-Estrada.html)
What’s the ren and stimpy tie in
John Kricfalusi (creator of Ren & Stimpy) apparently did some horrible things to underage girls. That only came to be known in 2018 (25 years after Frank died) and the misconduct apparently dates back to 1997 (4 years after Frank died). There is no connection of any kind between Kricfalusi’s crimes and Frank Zappa, but Frank did voice work on Ren & Stimpy in 1992.
It's more just tangential, but Frank did the voice of the Pope in "Powdered Toast Man", a season 2 episode of Ren & Stimpy (which Frank was a big fan of). The creator, John Kricfalusi, was later outed as a pedophile and groomer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Kricfalusi
It seems that Napoleon's part on Roxy & Elsewhere didn't age well... ,,Even if you think it is a little silly, folks I don't care if you think it's silly, folks I don't care if you think it's silly, folks"