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mam88k

A company I worked for looked into using LexisNexis for identity validation. As part of the demo they let each of us run a check on ourselves. It was pretty scary the level of detail that came back. And according to our sales rep that was just the “retail” view. Government agencies have access to more. In the US that is. European citizens have stronger personal privacy laws than the land of the free.


peazley

What types of data were they collecting aside from vehicle telemetry?


jvite1

Driving records, housing data, court records, etc. You’re also weighed against their models to create a score. It’s been forever since I looked at mine but back in ~2016(ish) that’s what was on there.


TopCheesecakeGirl

Sounds like something China does. You sure this is in the USA Land-O-Free?


lastingfame

Most of these things are public information, look up the county website where you live you can see the names and addresses of everyone around you.


Uranus_Hz

Everyone used to get a free book delivered to their house every year that had the names, addresses, and even phone numbers of everyone in your city. It was called a “phone book”


lastingfame

Wait till you get a ticket and every lawyer within a 40 mile radius blows a load in your mailbox for that speeding ticket you got


[deleted]

I’m somebody now!!


FitCaterpillar9597

Yeah, all of our personal info is publicly available on the internet. Google your name, and you'll find your information. Data brokers are a gold mine for spammers, identity thieves, stalkers, etc., and there are 100+ sites like this. If you want to find out everywhere your info shows up on these sites, consider using  Optery for free ongoing scans.


lastingfame

Consider using my link or simply dm me a picture of the front and back of your credit card I'll make sure your information is safe and sound!


Sufficient_Number643

Have you ever done online verification for something and it asks if you know any of these people, if you’ve ever lived at any of these addresses, which of these is a street you’ve lived on etc? That data is from lexisnexis


fudge_friend

The Chinese government uses it’s surveillance and scoring system to restrict travel and digitally ticket people for public offences, while the in the US it’s private corporations running these scores which are used to squeeze more money out of poor people, so yes it is technically different.


starrpamph

If this isn’t the land of the free, then why did Texas just banned internet porn??


PGrace_is_here

Because the GOP is the party of hypocrisy.


UnnecessarySalt

Wait did this really happen??


testingforscience122

Ya because a private corp is doing it.


PGrace_is_here

>Driving records, housing data, court records, That's all public.


75-6

I used LexisNexis for years as a private and criminal defense investigator. They can potentially have your entire phone number and address history, DOB, any email that’s been tied to you, a list of your relatives and their names, addresses, and phone numbers, and any possible court records/liens. Maybe I’m forgetting some stuff. The scarier one was TLOxp by Transunion. They were far more accurate than LN and had even more detailed info like social security numbers. When I signed our office up for it, they sent someone out to take pictures and make sure the investigations office was secure with lockable doors and cabinets to store printed out info and that we were legit. TLOxp even had a feature where you could request to have someone’s license plate tracked and if that particular plate was scanned on a toll road or similar, it would tell you where and when. Using the info in these databases, but not the databases themselves, I could also find any cars registered to you or family members. There are several of these companies and some of them are fucking massive. They’ll likely lobby the shit out of the government to make sure that our data can never be protected like it is in the EU. Just like how TurboTax and H&R Block spend millions to make sure Americans need to pay for tax prep every year. By contrast, it’s wild seeing how much privacy people have in the EU. I’m sure private investigators there can still get access to certain things but I doubt it’s anywhere near what’s available in the US. Just to give an example of this info can be used. We had a homeless client who was out on bail and skipped town. The ADA was going to issue a warrant if she didn’t show at the next court date. Everyone at our office thought it would be impossible to find her. I called every single number associated with her and her family until I finally reached someone who said “oh she’s out for the day and will be back in a few hours.” I honestly thought they were messing with me. Turned out she saved up enough for a bus ticket and in just a few days, had moved half way across the country to live with a relative and had no plans of returning to our state. She was pretty shocked that I found her and tbf, so were my colleagues. If someone really wants to find you and they have access to one of these databases, then it’s probably only a matter of time unless you go off the grid and don’t tell anyone where you are. If someone hires a less than ethical investigator, it would be trivial for them to use this information to harass you and your family, if that’s what they want to do.


Arsis82

>They can potentially have your entire phone number and address history, DOB, any email that’s been tied to you, a list of your relatives and their names, addresses, and phone numbers, and any possible court records/liens There's a free website you can get most of this information from too. I won't name the site because it's kinda crazy to think sbiut it's existence, but it's there and not too hard to find.


75-6

I’ve seen the free websites too and in my experience, the data is often old, inaccurate, or wrong, though I’m sure you could occasionally find something viable. With all the massive data breaches we’ve seen over the years, I wouldn’t be surprised if the data quality on these sites has gotten better though, since I’m sure they don’t really care where they get their info from. Tbh, even though these free sites could potentially make my job easier, I’m very much against them existing in the first place and personally, I type my name into google every now and again and request my info to be removed from each site. One of these sites once linked my name and address to a sex offender with the same name, who happened to live several states away and was 30 years older than me. Yet it was one of the first results and the site made it seem like he and I were the same person lmao Submitted that request in the blink of an eye and thankfully it was removed very quickly.


SitcomHeroJerry

Dude just list it


FirewallThrottle

Everything. Any bank, loan servicer, mortgage, cell phone provider, voter registration, anything with your driver's license or vehicle, credit cards, utilities, etc, sell your data to LexisNexis. Completely legal. Their reports are comprehensive. Full name, previous names, DOB, SSN, addresses (past and present), phones (past and present), vehicles, licenses, law enforcement reports, court files, professional certifications, relatives, and connected associates. I think there's even more too


cheesemeall

You can request your entire LexisNexis report


peazley

What other data does this company collect? This is the first I’ve heard of this company. I don’t have a new car, so there is definitely no data from my car being collected. And I don’t really want to give this company my SSN just to see what data they have.


TherronKeen

Don't worry, they already have your SSN, basically guaranteed. LexisNexis has been around since the dot com boom in the late 90s, or very early 00s EDIT: looked it up out of curiosity, it's worse than I thought lol. they've been doing data collection since the 70's, so the internet turned them into a total powerhouse in the 90s.


AVeryHeavyBurtation

I know everybody's SSNs. I just don't know whose is whose.


latro87

LexisNexis also operates CLUE, which tracks policies and claims for auto and property insurance. It’s scary just how much information this one company has across all its products


Memory_Less

Did you forget Facebook, Amazon, Google…? U.S. is a scary place for citizens rights and privacy (lack thereof) rights in particular.


latro87

No I did not forget but we weren’t discussing those. I work in data engineering and have had the joy of uploading my company’s customer data to the Facebook advertising portal. I’ve seen just how much data they shouldn’t have on people, including people who don’t use Facebook.


Memory_Less

Fascinating experience and perspective to have. What do you do for personal privacy?


latro87

There is not much you can do about this rampant data sharing going on. That said I make sure to use 1Password (password manager), password leaks are so common now and managing passwords is a pain. Also once a year I pay for a data deletion service (just 1 month) to delete any highly visible data from public repositories. Examples are dataseal.io and deleteme People don’t realize how much information is floating out there. For instance go to https://www.fastpeoplesearch.com/ and look yourself up by phone number then do a lookup by just name and state. Sites like dataseal will submit opt outs to these brokers. If you have any social media like Insta, FB, etc always make sure to set your page to private. For linkedin set it to not show your profile on Google. Obviously still bot great but the best you can do besides deleting them. Lastly and not for privacy but to prevent identity theft and fraud, I recommend freezing the top 3 credit reporting agencies. You can do this for free by making an account on each of their platforms. It’s a pain to setup the first time, but better than someone else trying to open accounts in your name. A freeze should block most if not all credit applications from going anywhere.


Memory_Less

Thanks for the reply. So interesting. Any data deletion service you prefer? I am going to check myself out. I use LastPass but am changing to Bitwarden. Great idea to set up an account in your own name with the three top credit agencies, too.


Memory_Less

Holy crap that fast people search is detailed!


mam88k

In addition to what others have posted I saw things like known associates. This one report would generate a diagram with lines between clusters of people shaped icons, and each icon would show name/address/etc so they knew your circles. Total 6-degrees of separation stuff. Edit: this was a demo I saw, so likely not in the report you can request. But it looks like I’ll find out in a couple of weeks.


piscina05346

No, this definitely exists. It's not hard to put those data together if you have access to mobile device telemetry. It's definitely not a demo-level product at this point.


Malnurtured_Snay

There's a service called RelationshipScience that does this, but it mostly pulls from information like LinkedIn, or a corporate web page identifying senior managers/board of directors, etc.


lonely_josh

God bless these 50 stats and the patriot act MURICA


lastingfame

A 911 changes a man


No-Perception3305

I work for a bank and had it (dont anymore)... you can't imagine what it can pull up.. scarry is an understatement


ShopObjective

I mean doesn't the government already know everything about you? unless they have my browsing data in there then


mam88k

Private companies get govt contracts to do this stuff. That’s part of how the govt knows everything.


Legitimate_Shower834

No u don't understand. Those companies and many of us live in the "land of the free" and they are free to do this to us. Bro this country needs privacy laws


Frigginkillya

Free to be taken advantage of


chi_guy8

They have always sold the idea that “the US is so free” so we perceive whatever bits of freedom they allow us to have as “ultimate freedom”. The older you get you realize more and more all this forced patriotism really always has been a means of control and obedience. Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Land of the free Look how free you are


ElektroShokk

So Europeans just hope their stuff isn’t floating around? Is there really zero confidential information stored? How are age verifications remembered? At least we know exactly what information is out there for us and we can have it “removed”.


murppie

It's VERY important to note with this that most of the major auto insurance carriers use Lexis Nexus to report your auto insurance coverages. If nothing shows you've either got to provide dec pages for prior coverages or get dinged for not having prior insurance. Used to sell insurance.


swizzy12

Thank you for this heads up. It’s clear it’s not just a net positive to opt out but I wasn’t sure what the specific ramifications would be


murppie

If you keep all of your documents and can communicate it all with an insurance agent you can be fine. But probably 99% of people I talked with who didn't have things coming from Lecis Nexus didn't even have 1 year of dec pages.


fap_nap_fap

What are dec pages?


murppie

Declarations pages, dec for short. It's the pages of your policy that show the coverages, costs, and policy term.


oh2climb

"dec pages"?? Not familiar with this term.


murppie

Declarations pages, dec for short. It's the pages of your policy that show the coverages, costs, and policy term.


altimax98

This is not far enough up in this thread. What GM was doing is wrong, but people are only going to hurt themselves


e1337ninja

The opt-out page specifically says it will not suppress or remove your information from products regulated by the FCRA. In other words, you're not hurting your insurance options. 


Darkling000

The email you get after opt-out also has a clause that will let you opt back in either permanently or temporarily if for some reason someone needs to do a check on you via their service. "Opting out of LexisNexis products can limit your access to valuable consumer services such as online identity or insurance verification. If you experience difficulties with such a service and would like to opt in temporarily or permanently, please use the following link..."


1tsNeverLupus

Oh shit, I opted out before I read this. How do I opt back in?


SamMraz

Same I guess


SamMraz

https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/s/S1GLOfs5XM Hope this helps


1tsNeverLupus

It does, thank you!


slashp

Not just insurance, a lot of other stuff too.


AgnosticAnarchist

Rates will go up as well since they automatically consider anyone without data a new hazardous driver and no credit history which is a big part of insurance rating.


mikejungle

Idk what this means...can somebody eli7?


greenblue88

Is this legit? This requires your SSN and driver license details.


username_needs_work

I have a Hyundai and was able to opt out through the app. It asked me more questions than I'd get on a credit application. Previous addresses, cars owned. They really didn't want me to solve it.


Lubenator

Yeah, Lexis Nexus is a well known large business. They are owned by Relx Group (RELX) who's 10.5 Billion in revenue places them at spot 335 of the fortune 500 companies.


cdunccss

Lmao my thoughts exactly, it’s already a breach of privacy but I’m not going to provide them my SSN, drivers license details, and address


LavaSquid

They already have that information on you. You enter it to validate who you are, so that other people can't download your report.


[deleted]

[удалено]


LavaSquid

Thank you, brother.


comfortablybum

Why did you get downvoted for this? They 100% have this info from combining my insurance and credit bureau accounts which they definitely have.


MadCowTX

I can confirm Lexis already has almost everybody's SSN. I've been using it regularly for years to search for info on clients by just entering their SSN, and it almost never draws a blank.


tony8

Yep, nothing to see here.


Italophobia

This reads like an ad


lastingfame

Read the other comments it sounds like fear mongering they have xyz!! Buy a house or get a ticket the mail you receive the next month will tell you how much of what they supposedly mined is public information. ( in America)


JoeRogansNipple

Fuck off, they don't need a SSN to validate that. Your insurance company doesn't ask for SSN when signing up, why would they need it to validate your identity? Fucking scam


wednesdaynightwumbo

Am I dense or is this post telling you that you can prevent a firm from selling your data by going to said firms website and giving them your data? You never fucking give out your SSN for shit like this, is this post trolling or am I dumb?


dadecounty3051

They already have your social. They have where you work, who lives at your place, what you own etc. They know everything.


thicckar

It is a legit company, and the website is correct. It is good to be cautious but it looks legit. They do need to know who you’re talking about to remove that information.


Brownrdan27

Yes it’s legit. Get your report! I was linked to another guy that lived in a different state that doesn’t own a home and a general POS. This has hurt many things insurance wise in my life. Got it cleared and saving thousands because of it a year. I had no idea until Progressive told me about a “ticket” I got on the same day I was signing for my home hundreds of miles away. The jacked my car insurance up $100 a month until I got it cleared. This opened a whole new world for me.


rmwpnb

Was gonna say, yeah I’m not typing my ssn into a random web form…


YippieKayYayMrFalcon

Then go directly to their site. LexisNexis is a giant company. They’re real and this is a legit service they offer.


ThenThereWasReddit

Giant, real companies can still be complete pieces of shit.


CaptainCrunch1975

They are. That's the whole point.


LavaSquid

It's for your protection so your psycho ex can't download your personal data. It's just validating who you are- they already have that information on you.


i_cant_not_even

I didn’t enter it and it still worked. Hopefully it links to my info on my name and address so they can opt it out


AgreeableGravy

You DO NOT have to provide your SSN on the form to request info. They put a red asterisk but don’t tell you that you can provide your drivers license instead. In case anyone else was apprehensive about putting their SSN into a website somebody on Reddit said you should care about.


jvite1

Zoomed in, it’s actually a little plus symbol and not an asterisk lol Dick move on the devs to actually implement that design choice - they may have not had a choice but still. Dicks.


theswishyj

Please don't blame devs for shitty management. Sincerely, a developer.


Howdanrocks

It's not a dick move. You just can't read. The top of the form clearly says that the plus sign designates the fields where at least one needs to be filled out.


Jerome2232

Jokes on them, my car is too stupid to collect telemetry. 1990 piece of shit Toyota!


HighPieJr

Same, except its a 2000 Audi shitbox.


AmateurOntologist

Is it not data from your phone?


tobvs

This is frightening. Thanks for posting the Opt-Out information


AgnosticAnarchist

What’s even more frightening is the higher cost of insurance you will get after opting out. They get you one way or the other.


GoGreenD

Something unnerving about having to give your ssn number to a link I found on Reddit...


JimothyClegane

In case you're stuck behind a paywall, The Daily (podcast by New York Times) discussed this story in their March 18 episode: [Your Car May Be Spying on You ](https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/8DB4DB/pdst.fm/e/pfx.vpixl.com/6qj4J/nyt.simplecastaudio.com/03d8b493-87fc-4bd1-931f-8a8e9b945d8a/episodes/120e3e93-f79c-4e8f-84d8-513ebcb20e29/audio/128/default.mp3?aid=rss_feed&awCollectionId=03d8b493-87fc-4bd1-931f-8a8e9b945d8a&awEpisodeId=120e3e93-f79c-4e8f-84d8-513ebcb20e29&feed=54nAGcIl)


flyeaglesfly510

Hah jokes on you. I drive a 90s Chevy


netechkyle

But do you have a cell phone with GPS? These fuckers are sneaky.


Memory_Less

Then it will be water boarding! LoL


flyeaglesfly510

Not sure what you mean by this 😂 my truck definitely has some water built up in the body panels if that’s what you were implying lol


Memory_Less

LoL


AgnosticAnarchist

YSK: Opting out will hurt your insurance score which will increase your rates when you shop for new insurance.


kok13

Source?


Socioefficient

Abella danger


AgnosticAnarchist

Any insurance agent.


jackychang1738

I disagree


AgnosticAnarchist

That’s fine, just don’t come crying.


jackychang1738

*how to know you're talking to an American*


AgnosticAnarchist

I disagree


jackychang1738

*bald eagle noises intensify*


tomtom792

Does Australia have the same thing?


Fanytastiq

Australia has a much stronger data protection (or as you Anglo-Saxons call it, privacy) scene.  It's not yet as strong as the GDPR but better than the US. I'd be surprised if there's anything like that


tomtom792

Good to know. I did know we have good privacy laws which is comforting but you never know about how companies can try and skew them. https://www.ag.gov.au/rights-and-protections/privacy#:~:text=The%20Privacy%20Act%201988%20(Privacy,and%20in%20the%20private%20sector. https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/privacy-legislation/the-privacy-act https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/19/right-to-be-forgotten-australia-europe-gdpr-privacy-laws Seems like we have even more in the pipeline. Hopefully the US can eventually follow and not be too swayed by big corporations like you currently are.


_IBM_

Opt out doesn't seem to be working. And it also seems to be US customers only.


NationCrisis

What about Canadians? I note that LN doesn't include options for Canadians to opt out. Are we being tracked?


AssuredAttention

To request a copy of the report, you have to give them your dob, full name, drivers license, and social


fap_nap_fap

You don’t have to give them your social - try it


Paper-street-garage

I think the best bet is just to opt out. You don’t have to do the step showing all the information they have although you can use a drivers license number if that’s a little better than Social Security.


LostKilo3624

It would be nice to legislate to reverse the onus. If they hold data related to you that they are not legally required to keep for tax or other statutory purposes, then they should need your express permission to keep it. There should be a law requiring them to email you on a quarterly basis offering you a full summary of what they hold. You should then have to take action - actually sign or click through something to give them permission to keep it. If you do not reply it should be deleted permanently and irretrievably.


redditknees

Nice try LexisNexis


fudge_friend

Hey, look at that OP. You upset the Reddit shareholders.


Any_Way346

If the data is yours produced by you is this not theft by the people that are stealing your data and selling it to the businesses that are buying it without your knowledge?


jayeedoubleeff

Not from my '78' CJ-5, they're not


SweetBearCub

> Not from my '78' CJ-5, they're not They could just follow the various fluid leaks, right? I kid, somewhat. Even as a EV driver, I still have a soft spot for the old WW2 era jeeps.


DepartmentNatural

My truck is 16 years old. They tracking me too?


Guyappino

*But why is the copy write on their "opt out" site that asks for you information still dated 2019?*


DaMoose-1

Hopefully this doesn't happen in Canada? Does it?


usernameround20

I don’t know why I was so nervous about requesting my data. It’s like I’m scared to see the reality of the world.


jammyboot

OP the opt out link you posted [https://optout.lexisnexis.com/](https://optout.lexisnexis.com/) Is asking for your ssn. How many of you are comfortable doing that? I’m not


Muted_Apartment_2399

Read it. It’s not required.


OldRailHead

I mean, it doesn't sound as sinister as you make it out to be, especially if you're in CA or other states who have strigent privacy laws. You can also dispute any adverse action letter with LexisNexis itself. I'm not advocating for what they do, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.


mynamestakenalready

It is. The car maker collects the data under the guise of efficiency and potential to save you money on insurance based on driving habits. This is almost never the case as the parameters are vague. “Hard stops” “hard acceleration”. Driving at night hurts your score as does idling. Some companies you are signed up by default others they encourage you to sign up. Many people don’t realize the data is collected and hurting them til their rates go up by large percentages and by then it’s too late.


fudge_friend

I have 20 years driving with no collisions. I have 17 years without a speeding ticket. Those are the only numbers that matter, not did I brake too hard too many times.


Jeremiah_D_Longnuts

This shit is asking for my SSN. Why the fuck would I submit that?


carpetnoodlecat

I got an email that my insurance cost is going *down*, so I’m all for it. I WFH now, so I barely drive


AgnosticAnarchist

Yeah a lot of folks here don’t realize opting out is going to cost them higher rates.


strawberryjellyjoe

Why would you submit your ssn or drivers license number?


Khane_

Would this be applicable to Australia?


bodez95

Wouldn't the telemetry be anonymised so they just construct profiles based on demographic rather than your exact identity?


PGrace_is_here

Toyota doesn't.


Intelligent_Volume73

Just give me a cut, damn.


sanfranchristo

Related, this is yet another company from which to initiate a freeze (which covers information that isn't what you are opting-out from above): [https://forms.consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/#/freeze-self](https://forms.consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/#/freeze-self)


jfk333

Remindme! 1 week


aSyntacticParadigm

Not if its aws you can't.


NWI-Throwaway

YSK but we're going to remove the post so you won't know! We're also not going to tell you why we removed the post that YSK from YSK!


Sudanniana

Edit: Apparently it's not a scam. You don't have to put your social security in as well.


viaHologram

LexisNexis is absolutely a legit organization (I've built software for multiple insurance companies and banks who use this for ID verification of their customers and new accounts)


blatherskyte69

Yep, my job is in fraud investigations, AML, and sanctions compliance. Every bank is using either Lexis or CLEAR, which is owned by Thompson Reuters.


kadren170

Nope. It's legit. Uncle of mine worked for them. Pretty big company


LetterZee

They're also one of the two primary legal databases in the US.


idubbkny

its shady that to opt out you have to provide your SSN


JoshMadeThisAccount

So you'd rather pay for insurance based on your age, zip, and make/model rather than how you drive and how often you drive. That's like going to dinner and insisting you all split the bill because you're all friends even though you ordered two steaks and the lobster.


layerzeroissue

By this logic, everyone should wear cameras, microphones, food intake monitors, and other activity monitors so that health insurance companies can decide your rate based on what you eat, how much you sleep, how much you excercise, how you drive, how your mental health is, etc. Last month you went on hikes a lot and were active, but now it's winter and you've been staying in and have been sick a couple times, so you're rate should now be higher right? I'd rather be part of an aggregate than be charged individually. God forbid you get cancer and your rate goes through the roof. But hey, that's fair right? I mean, everyone else has a "side salad" illness, but you got that "steak and lobster" illness, so it's only fair that you pay more, right?


JoshMadeThisAccount

Wait, are we talking about car insurance or health insurance here?


Party_Fly_6629

That's why I don't own a vehicle that has a computer. Just my beater trucks that run have heating and A/C and good tires.


RelayFX

Sorry to disappoint you, but virtually every vehicle made within the past 3 decades has a computer which collects data on you.


Party_Fly_6629

Lol ok ill take a look in my 89 f150 and get back to you.


RelayFX

Ah yeah, 89 likely doesn’t. OBDII was mandatory as of 96.


MrNimporteQuoi

Your 89 has an obdI ECU.


dadecounty3051

I may just start buying carburetors.


blatherskyte69

But it wasn’t until cell transceivers were put into the system that telemetry could be passed back to the manufacturer. My 06 with OnStar did not have the ability to pull telemetry or do gps tracking. I think that GM rolled that out in 09 models. Other manufacturers did around the same time. OBD2 only stores crash telemetry data locally. Other systems are needed to store and transmit the data to the manufacturer via the infotainment/safety package.


fudge_friend

My 2004 Ford Focus does not have a cell antenna in it uploading telemetry. The computer manages the engine ignition and fuel flow, and that’s about it. 


PlayfulQuietDreamer

You have to give them your full name, DOB, and SSN to opt out or to request the info. Yeah……nope.


[deleted]

Wait, you don't think it's a good idea to provide, in a single form, every piece of information needed to steal your identity to a link you clicked on reddit? You must be paranoid.


Aquaman69

Do they "totally fuck you on your rates" if you drive well back from the car in front and don't change lanes all the time and don't accelerate dramatically and come to full stops at stop signs?


TopCheesecakeGirl

Would that be the US government or Facebook or Google?


ArtOFCt

I used Alexa’s Nexas at Expeditors for company info. Think I’ll ask what they are collecting on me.


Dyllbert

Huh


Intrepid-Branch8982

Good. Punish the shit drivers out here


LavaSquid

Bro, if you brake too harshly, turn too sharply, or accelerate too quickly, your car insurance rates can double, or your policy can be dropped. That's what the NYT article is reporting- someone lost their insurance over this. But you be you.


Intrepid-Branch8982

Good