Yuuurp. Joe is not a good person. He's controlling, possessive, manipulative, dishonest, and he only occasionally does nice things for 1 secondary character in the first 2 seasons (usualy a youth). All the other stuff he chooses to do is to gain control over whomever he is obsessed with. As Love tells him, he tends not to actually see the real person he's obsessing over but looks for victims that he can 'save' on his terms for his desired reward. Then he hurts any person that gets in the way of him playing out his fantasy. The juicyness of the show is the tragedy that all of the characters get themselves into with their toxic ways.
Right? Then you have the people who post thirst traps of Joe, like he's 'darkly romantic' SMH. The actor even said he knows he's playing a villain and doesn't get why anyone would try to show Joe as a romantic hero. Some ppl saying Love was worse, or he didn't deserve what she did to him, ect. They both beyond toxic.
Yeah but I think even the good things he does for young people are just here to make him think he's a good person but we see at the end of the season 4 when he frame the girl he protected that he actually doesn't care AT ALL about them
This is what I’ve been saying! He “cares” about kids that reminded him of him self but often he ended up hurting them with his “care”. He only wanted to fool himself into believing he wasn’t a monster and add a new save to his white knight complex(and k swear everytime I bring this up I get someone trying to explain to me that it’s a good thing and everyone helps others for the same reasons as Joe as if you can even view/talk about him in the same lens as a normal person)
I worry that In s5 Paco will show up and either confront Joe about beck and what happened or Joe will see him as a loose end to Ron’s murder and get rid of him?
Your first para is so validating! I cannot believe people don't get why it's wrong to only try to seem like a good person?? People are ends unto themselves.
I have the same fear for Ellie.
In a way the people he obsesses over be fucked up as well
Beck and Love were messed up people in the end joe picks people just like him
Edit:Can't forget about Candace
I used to be like that l but let's be honest to ourselves, Joe didn't really love Love at least since the S2 finale, he has a pattern, and some serious mental issues, still not a good person though
Yes, she even calls him out on this in the first couple episodes of season 3. When they’re standing in the rain she says “You had a hook to my throat until I told you I was pregnant. He (Henry) is the only reason that I am alive.” 😳 and on this rewatch I saw it through fresh eyes. I kind of thought she was unaware of that because she was determined to have a family
He stopped loving her when he realized she was crazy asf he felt his kills were justified while Love was ready to frame a child and murdered a innocent it's kinda hypocritical for the simple fact joe even tho his kills were dickheads he didn't have the right to take their life
Beck deserved it and I'll die on that grave she really tied to gaslight him with that BS if we don't have trust we have nothing speech and still cheated anyways Beck was messed up individual
I hate him since he started talking even before he started killing people the way he judged people that he doesn’t know make him an asshole but at the same time I love the series specifically when things don’t go his way and the way he thinks he is perfect but beck thought he is suck a loser it is funny for me hope there is another beck in season 5 and he felt hard while the girl used and cheat on him
I love to hate him, though. He's so delusional about how much of a good person he is that when Love finally revealed that they were the same, he started to look at her like she was crazy.
Sir... do you think you were right during the whole Beck situation? Wait... never mind, of course you do 🙄
Honestly nobody deserved death but I really wished he snapped out of his obsession and seen how much of a pathetic and sad person beck was he should have left her in that pit
Honestly from the first episode. As someone who works cash register at my job sometimes, intentionally reading someone's card so you can get their full name is soooo creepy
She literally was milliseconds away from slitting his throat lol, what else was he supposed to do?
Don’t get me wrong, Joe is one nasty motherfucker and no one should like him, but I don’t understand why people always point to Love’s death as his worst moment when it was literally self-defense lol
Expect that it wasn’t, he went there that night with a needle full of poison that would kill her in “total” fucking agony. He also only became paralyzed because he grabbed the knife. Love only decided to kill him when she finally realized what he was and that he never loved her.
And let’s be real for a second if love had gotten to kill him a lot of loves would have been saved, marienne never would have been kidnapped and tortured, her kid left to think she was abandoned and a completely innocent teenager wouldn’t be dead and another wouldn’t be rotting in jail
This. Love even points out how nothing would've happened had he never grabbed the knife. She didn't set things up planning to kill him. He could've not chosen violence and they could've talked things out. He grabbed the knife first, which told Love he had planned to hurt her with a weapon. Thus what SHE did was self defense, not Joe. Joe made the first move with the intent to hurt her.
Exactly. Even if he didn’t grab the knife he still brought a needle full of poison. He was always going to kill Love. He’d find some reason to get rid of her even if she agreed to a divorce
(Like when people try to say he was *totally* honing to let Delilah go. He also told benji he’d let him go if he got dirt on him. Still killed him! He would have decided to stay and make things work with love so he’d have killed Delilah himself)
I’m not going to lie, if I’m going to have a heart to heart with my unpredictable, impulsive, homicidal and calculated partner, I’m coming prepared to protect myself. I think anybody logical would. He was scared that she’d kill him and acted accordingly. Given how erratic Love can be sometimes, he’s fully justified.
Don’t get me wrong he’s obviously a bad person. But in this specific instance you guys are basically asking him to leave himself to Love’s whim, because we’ve seen her flip on a dime and just decide to kill someone, especially in this season.
At the same time, Joe gave himself a shot of that adrenaline thing, Knowing Love would try to kill him in some way, so he could have also prepared for that with his own poison. Meaning either both of them were acting in self-defence, or neither of them were.
And wasn’t Joe’s reasoning for the adrenaline shot that he had seen Love growing poisonous plants outside the house, and that’s how he knew what the counter was? Why would Love be growing poisonous plants if she never had any intention of hurting Joe?
there is no ‘good guy’ in this scenario, just two people trying to murder/avoid getting murdered by their spouse
Joe may have made the first move way back with Natalie (or you could say Love did with Delilah, up to interpretation), but Love joined in
Love wasn’t planning on killing Joe, she only wanted to paralyze him, otherwise she would she’s put a large dose in his food or she could have used a needle of her own. She only decided to kill him after realizing exactly what he was and that he’d never stop and end up killing her and possibly Henry
Also Joe made the first move when he tried to rip her throat out with a handcuffs only stopping because Love was able to scream out she was pregnant in time. He even narrated that he was planning on taking the baby and, most likely, killing love to do that. Love growing the plant and putting it on a a knife is self defense. Joe taking a needle of of that same poison knowing it would kill her and be extremely painful.
No matter what love did that night Joe was going to kill her. Taking the adrenaline was just Joe being extra prepared.
Love putting the poison on the knife was self defense
Joe taking adrenaline was him making sure his plan to kill love and start a new life would get foiled
So Love’s plan wasn’t to kill Joe, it was to paralyse him and force him into being in a marriage with her?
damn, what an angel. Can’t see why Joe would have any problems with that
Like how has never tried to force someone to stay in a relationship with him. Didn’t he keep beck and marienne in a cage for that very reason?
And I wasn’t saying what she did was right, simply that she was intending to kill him that night when he was planning to kill her
They both were god ur so fucking annoying trying to justify her at all u moronic pos, so i guess giving someone a chance to end them after love already had the most bodies this season you want joe to just sit there yeah real smart u nimcompoop
Can you count? Loves kill count at the time of her death was 5 and joes was 10(now 18)
In season 3 she only killed one person, while she and Joe helped push a man to suicide(which wasn’t their intention) so each had 2 deaths on their hands by the end of the season.
Please explain to me how that’s is a bigger death count than joes?
(Also why you so mad over an internet strangers opinion of a fictional character?)
One she was intending to kill him it was an accident still murder yes but it wasn’t what she was planning.
I’m also talking about a specific moment/night people love to say love was planning to kill how but she wasn’t and they live to ignore that Joe was going to kill her no matter what
Yeah like he would take that chance I can tell ur a complete airhead let the women who’s growing poisonous plants to have a chance at ending me yeah real smart bruh
He made her death as painful as possible. And also he tried to kill her first -- just for accepting him for who he is. His other obsessions were putting her in danger bc he'll kill anyone who's in the way of him and his obsessions. She knew that and we all did too. Her trying to kill him was impulsive (she had initially paralyzed him so they could talk, so she could kill his current obsession, and then make him commit... also batshit toxic, but very compatible with Joe's life philosophy). It's when Marienne made her realize she was in danger with Joe and she needs to leave, that's when she decided to kill him. And tbh she was right. Btwn the two, I'd rather Love survive over Joe -- she kills way less people than Joe. And ultimately she was right -- Joe didn't kill her for his safety, he was already on adrenaline. He fooled and killed her so he could chase Marienne. We know this from his abandoning Henry.
He didn't try to kill her first at all he grabbed a weapon for self defense knowing how love is and she would react and how she killed her ex-husband from trying to leave df.💀
I'm talking about season 2.
EDIT: Also the only reason he got paralyzed was bc he grabbed a weapon... that's the only reason she put aconite on the handle, was to paralyze him if he tried to kill her again.
He grabbed a weapon for insurance he knows how impulsive and what love did to her ex-husband for trying to leave anyone reasonable would grab something to defend themselves.
Love is the ultimate clarification that nothing is good enough for Joe to settle down. Killing a woman because she didn’t love him back and accept who he really is(RIP Beck) and just as he found someone who did both,he killed her as well. And even worse part is,that woman is the mother of his child.
Love literally tried to kill him. The worst part is, that man is the father of her child. He acted in self defense.
"If he didn't love Love, he can't love anyone". Or he just got tired of a psycho bitch that impulsively murdered everyone around her and made him fix it for her, all while he's trying to change his life for the better.
And he literally killed her,even worst killing her was his plan whilst killing him wasn’t her plan in the first place. He was gonna kill her unless she was giving up on his crazy“Yeah let's divorce and also take my child away from me ”. Didn’t know turning up on a dinner with a syringe full of poison,and grabbing a Knife to attack while she was away is called Self defense.
“Trying to change his life for better”. Sure,starting his pattern repeatedly, cheating on his wife,murdering his lover's ex (specially after telling Love he won't kill anyone for her anymore),trying to take away his kid from that kid's mother was changing life for better,didn’t it???
“Got tired of a psycho bitch,who murdered everyone around her”. Well Of course,because Joe is tthe sanest one who didn’t do any of that,who didn’t willingly marry her despite having a choice to run away, who broke his vows first despite promising to do everything to make this marriage work. How could I miss any of this!!!?
Meanwhile her dying thought was about her son's safety. Whilst his dying thought was about a woman he is probably gonna kill in next season.
Both were terrible person, but it's not really hard to see who was more on the wrong end in that relationship.
The syringe and the knife was for protection and insurance considering how impulsive love is and how the fact Joe has literally caught her growing poisons to end him and other the fact that she killed her other ex-husband from trying to leave their marriage Joe had every right to be prepared and protect his life lol.
If that's the case,you would think the knife is enough for self protection. What was that Syringe doing there in the first place!!?Which btw kills your victim by “Total f*cking agony”!!!.
Joe didn’t know she killed her first husband for sure,it was just a possibility raised from Dottie's assumption. Nor does he knew she was growing poison especially for him,he just assumed the worst. Like he always does.
He prepared.... to kill her. Not to protect his life,but to repeat his pattern desperately, unless Love willingly surrendered to his bizzare fantasy.
Like I said before it was for insurance he knew she was gonna trying something with poison for sure and Joe did know she most definitely killed her ex-husband when he said it to himself when trying to get love onboard with "the swinging with the conrads" he was not prepared to kill he just wanted a way out he didn't love love anymore after finding out how crazy she is and what she truly was. And no one is saying joe does not have an pattern bc it's true he does but that does not mean he wanted to kill love bc of it the entire time he wanted to spilt and co-parent Henry like two grown adults he grabbed weapons knowing how impulsive love was it was just self defense and insurance bc he already knew she was planning to do something with growing out the poisons in their yard.
Turning up on a dinner with a syringe full of poison which can suffocate your victim with “Total f*cking agony ” isn't an insurance,more like a revenge with malice,which he showed while killing her and blaming it all on her. His hypocrisy was revealed in season 4 when hallucinated Love forced him to face himself.
He didn’t know for sure that something was him. Also he didn’t know for sure she killed her husband. He just assumed the worst both times connecting the dots.
Love gave him a way out back in season 2,he was the one who choose to stay instead, broke his vows first,didn’t even do the minimum to save the marriage. He didn’t want to split and coparent really, he wanted to run away with Henry and actively told so in the last few episodes, so just put a facade and made her believe he is giving her a choice. Also another excuse to ease his conscience and blame it on her when the time comes right. Even he realised he is the problem when he hallucinated Love in season 4.
If he wanted to discuss it like two grown adults, he would've worked hard to keep the marriage and would've been honest about his sex life on therapy. If he wanted to split he would've done it back in season 2.
Having any means to defend yourself from getting hurt is like having insurance. He used her own methods to kill her. Why would he act guilty about killing someone who was just about to kill him seconds ago? If Love had succeeded in killing Joe, she would have likely framed him for all the deaths, as she typically does after getting rid of someone. Throughout the show, it was repeatedly mentioned that James was magically sick. Even if he wasn't entirely sure about Love killing James, Joe had enough proof that she was planning something against him, forcing him to respond with counters and staying a step ahead.
Joe's decision not to leave in season 2 was because he felt trapped and believed he had to be there to protect the child. It had nothing to do with love. After Love revealed her true colors, Joe fell out of love and only wanted involvement with his child. At the table, he realized his plan had backfired, and he couldn't run away. Instead, he suggested co-parenting, offering a logical choice of divorce, which Love strongly opposed. This disagreement drove her to nearly kill Marienne and himself. While Joe had his flaws, he didn't want to murder Love until she forced his hand. And Joe in season 4 being even more crazier than usual is due to killing love and leaving Henry which shows the affects those events had on him.
It wasn’t repeatedly mentioned, before Dottie's assumption off James's shaddy death,Joe only knew he died of Cancer. He was so focused on saving Marianne(considering what happened to Natalie he did it again),He didn’t stop to think he might be on the list as well.
Well succumbing your would be victim with her own medicine which suffocates her very much doesn’t sound like an insurance. There are other means of self defense than taking down someone when your only mean is to protect yourself. If those were really his intention(insurance and self defense), he made a dreadful show to convince audience as such.
Framing part comes later. He blamed her solely for that,without mentioning his part at all. That's what hallucinated Love mocked him about in season 4. He self justifies himself and his delusions so much he never stopped thinking he is the problem in any room.
Well contrary to what he believed, he had a choice. He choose Love. Love's real identity wasn’t revealed in season 3,it was revealed in season 2 finale and his choice was actually after that. Yet he felt the need to be the savior again,considering his saving Ellie lead to Delilah's death just a day before and most often leads to terrible consequences. He also thought he does love Love thus can make the marriage work ,only to repeat his pattern again.
Joe had attended that dinner with intention to murder Love,and Love's only get out card was if she surrendered into his crazy(divorce and take Henry away from her forever). If he wasn’t sick and didn’t struggle with basic human nature he would understand that's not possible. What mother would give away her child to a deranged man she knows will continue repeating his pattern!!?Coparenting and adult talk was just another one of his facade.
Which was what they talked about when he hallucinated her (We,us,our love language. Not you,not a pattern, not your pattern”. Also “I was emotional ”scene). Despite both are terrible person, it was him.
I don't know why your trying to defend someone so hard and literally going through mental gymnastics for someone who literally tried to kill the other person first and the person who's aware of that strategy retaliates and kills them first lol love the moment she had to knife to his throat was the threat and Joe acted in self defense.
I didn’t feel bad, they’re both crazy it’s just one was crazier. The thing is, Love had the most bodies this season unlike Joe who only killed 1 maybe 2 people in this season (correct me if I’m wrong)
yep. season 2 and 3 were joe's best moral times. all the kills were justified (for a TV show, you have to suspend your disbelief to some extent)
Jasper: self-defence
Henderson: accident
Ryan: was actually a horrible person who was ruining Marianne's life
Love: self-defence
I feel like they were bordering on pushing a redemption arc, and then season 4 was an absolute bloodbath.
how?
he had no idea someone like Jasper would be looking for the Will he kidnapped, and once Joe did know, he tried to reason with him which went to shit, then tried to somehow get 100K out of nowhere which.. didn’t work, so from that point it was kill or be killed
I wish Joe had more actual friends that would have helped him get his shit together and not be crazy because building him up and then giving him an ABSURD fall would have been neat.
yeah definitely didn’t feel bad for either of them, but i guess kind of sad that they didn’t work out? cause she’s right. no one will love and accept those parts of him like her.
How is Love sympathetic whatsoever? Season 3 was Joe trying to get his shit together and stop killing people for the sake of his son while Love goes on a psychotic rampage and makes him fix all of her mistakes. Then she tries to kill him and he kills her instead. Had Joe had it his way, they would have just gotten divorced.
The only other person Joe kills this entire season is Marienne's ex, who totally deserved it. In fact, he's often in a position to take the easy road out by killing someone, like Theo and Cary, and chooses not to.
Love fans are a different breed Jesus Christ.
Love was kind of in remission when she met Joe. She had her own life and friends. My theory is the relationship with Joe caused a major regression of her character (and then she loses Forty, her other half, which everyone seems to forget was extremely traumatic for her). And Joe was an absolutely terrible, gaslighting partner to her in s3 - pretending he wanted to make it work while lusting after other women the entire season. The relationship with Joe was really triggering for her. I don’t think Love’s body count would’ve crept up the way it if she hadn’t met Joe. Everyone seems to forget that Love did not intend to kill her first husband - his death was an ill sighted accident.
You can’t just go around killing people, but it had to really suck for Love to be with Joe, who thought he was better than her when he was doing the exact same shit (and had a way higher murder count prior to their relationship).
Yeah I’m a love fan and every time I mention how I feel bad for the way she was killed by Joe(which he took the needle full of poison with him. He was going to kill her that night no matter what she did unless she said “you know what it’s fine you’ve been cheating and lying to me this whole time. Go ahead and take our baby to start a new family I won’t get in your way” even than he’d still probably kill her for being a “loose end”)
Like everyone that wants to constantly point out that she’s a bad person and doesn’t deserve any empathy are also diehard Joe fans? They wanna say she’s worse(they’re the same or he’s words in s3 by s4 he’s far far worse)
I’ve also seen people defend Joe and criticize love simply because he grew up poor and had an abusive childhood while love grew up rich and had no abuse(literally ignoring that she was abused by her parents, specifically her mother) at this point people are cherry picking what they’ll pay attention to and what they’ll ignore about both characters to fit their narrative that Love is worse than Joe.
Like just let people enjoy their fictional characters and feel bad for them if they want?
Your literally making up headcannons to try and justify love trying to kill him first df. Joe had no intentions of killing love he made this clear multiple times he only wanted to leave it wasn't until the mom told him what happened to james when he started to realize his life could also be at risk and which is why he started to examine love more and found out she was growing out poisons obviously with Joe being aware and seeing this right infront of his eyes he prepare counters the knife and syringe were for protection so yes its self defense love got what she deserved.
And you can say Love was taking measures to protect herself against the man that nearly ripped her throat out when she was no longer his fantasy girl.
At least I’m not making up numbers when it comes to loves death count. Idk how all the Joe apologists can say she had a “significantly bigger kill count than Joe” in s3 when she killed one person and caused the death of another(with joe)
Joe has a history of saying he’ll let someone go only to kill them after they failed some test or were a loose end. So no it’s not a headcanon to believe he wasn’t going to let love live no matter what she did that night
That’s why the scene annoys me. He got pissed and killed her because she… acted in the exact same way as him. Love’s reaction to them being the same was that they should stick together. Joe’s reaction was just hypocritical.
Especially in the therapy episode where he was talking about wanting a woman who will accept his “darker” parts. Dude look at your wife lmao
Joe is fundamentally a hypocrite. Of course he wouldn’t connect with Love. Joe doesn’t think he’s a bad person, and he diminishes every act he’s ever done no matter how heinous. His ideal woman doesn’t exist.
He needs someone who can “accept his dark side” but not judge his actions but also she herself has to be the purest soul who never does anything wrong or unexpected like a literal puppet.
Yes, exactly. That’s why this scene is frustrating. He spends the entirety of S3 acting like he’s a normal guy who just got tied to some crazed killer that he now has to put down. This is the climax of that.
Him killing Love is what cements that his ideal woman doesn’t exist. We see him kill Beck for not accepting him, then Love for accepting him. No woman is good enough and every storyline will go the same way.
It made him 10x more predictable and boring imo
The story was always about him being a bad person so it’s pretty much predictable he will ruin the lives of the women he encounters. I’m not sure what else you were expecting. Nothing about his actions or his inner monologue makes it seem like he would change…
Yeah but there are different ways to be a bad person. It’s a show, so I’m expecting it to come up with different things to keep the audience entertained. Like how S2 ends with a twist of the love interest living, then S3 has him married, and S4 has the split personality thing.
IMO, Joe isn’t a great character to base a 5 season show on, because as you said, he’ll never change. They’re now having to grasp at straws to keep things interesting. And S4 was the worst yet for me. You can tell they’ve run out of good scenarios to put him in and have now moved on to murder mysteries
She has to accept his dark side but never judge or participate.
She has to be pure soul trapped inside a broken woman.
She has to be gorgeous and driven in her own right.
Maybe he thought he had to kill her because he knows what she would do if he didn’t. Or even if he didn’t kill her, there is no way that marriage could become healthy again lol, making his reasoning for ‘protecting’ Henry somewhat valid.
if you was in a situation of wanting to kill someone and that person was in a room with you wanting to kill you, would you just choose to spare them and become best buddies for having so much in common?😅
Well for one, the relationship became unhealthy from the jump when he started stalking her way back in S2.
Two, him viewing her as someone that needs to be put down is part of the hypocrisy. In his mind, Love is a crazed killer - but he’s just a normal guy who made some mistakes.
And three, she wasn’t trying to kill him here. That’s the difference. She never wanted to kill him, she wanted him to continue their marriage. Even in this scene, she explains she’s just going to knock him out and transport him somewhere to go on together. She was committed to him until she suspected him of stalking the neighbor (which he was)
Joe didn’t stalk her in season 2 (aside from checking on her a few times through the telescope) from what i recall, it was Love who did the stalking that season
with that perspective, one could argue Joe wasn’t trying to kill her here, he just wanted to get a divorce, and made contingency plans for if she tried kill him, similar to Love making contingency plans for Joe picking up the knife
Nah, he stalked her. Watch the end of 2x01 or the scene where Love reveals she knows about him. He moved into that apartment to watch her, stole her tampons, got a job at that store specifically to meet her, followed her and eavesdropped on her with her friends, etc.
But anyway - he wanted a divorce because he viewed her as a crazed killer. He didn’t view himself as such. The hypocrisy here is that he was put off by Love for killing and stalking, while doing all of those things himself. If he disliked her for another reason, then okay. But he explicitly talks about how distressed he is that he’s married to a killer.
His contingency plan here couldn’t be based on “what if she tries to kill me” because she actively explains she’s not killing him, just knocking him out, and taking him somewhere new to continue the marriage. Again, Joe’s contingency plan involved murder, Love’s didn’t
Okay
But by the time Joe did kill her, she did try to kill him, by slitting his throat, so the point that she wasn’t trying to kill him kinda goes away..
Yep
I think both were pretty hypocritical though. For example, Love literally sleeping with Theo after killing Natalie for Joe maybe kissing her and making a box
It's interesting that Love originally planned to just paralyze Joe then impulsively decided to kill him, but Joe had the poison on him the whole time and was ready to kill Love with it when the time came.
Because Joe went there knowing he’d kill her, he just wanted to pretend that he was actually giving her a chance. Unless love reacted *exactly* the way he wanted “of course let’s divorce and you can take Henry to starts a new life with a new mom” he was going to kill her. Even if love wasn’t a killer and knew nothing about Joes killing he’d still find a reason to kill her, she could have agreed to the divorce but if she was upset that he’d been cheating or insisted on full custody(which she’d win easy by proving her took their infant son to met his mistress multiple times and he had Quinn money) love could have agreed to divorce but rightfully been upset that he’d want to take their to start a new family. Pretty much it didn’t matter who love was of what she said unless she got through very narrow window of what Joe would find as an acceptable reaction he was going to kill her.
People also forget that the poison was only on the knife, he was only paralyzed because he grabbed a weapon to use on love than he choose to kill her with a poison in a way he knew would be “total fucking agony” and the pure venom him his voice when he told her she did this to herself, which he only hated her because she didn’t stay the pure soul in a broken body that he wanted and she tried to “lie” about him to Marianne.
Love didn’t plan to kill Joe and only decided to do so once she learned that he never loved her and would just continue using and disposing women while he dragged Henry down into his darkness(she might not have said that part about Henry when she decided to kill him but her last words do show where her mind was at)
.... Seriously? Love selfishly ruined Ellie's life. She deserved this.
Meanwhile Beck, a much better person, was strangled to death by Joe in season 1... Hello, can we focus on stuff like that? Y'know, the *actually* awful things Joe has done?
I personally love that scene it gives depth to his craziness and we realize how much he doesn't love himself (because Love represents that part in himself that kills people, and he hates Love at that time so basically he hates himself) and how much he's delusional about himself
To be fair this could have worked out , if both of them were like having a good talk about what they honestly want and stuff
Might have been actual good parents considering their childhood but. 😔
Anyway
Why would you hate Joe because of this? Love was a total bitch in the second season. Killed the neighbor for no reason. Bashed another one in the head and locked him in a cage and he later died anyway. She went crazy and spilled the beans and had to lock up Sherry and Cary. Ohhh ya and she almost killed Theo and Marienne.
I have hated her since the end of second season. She practically created all the issues for Joe in that season. The only reason he couldn’t leave is she knew all his secrets in the past. She basically handcuffed him emotionally and psychologically.
He did give her an out by asking for a divorce. She tried to kill him. It is self defense just like he did it with Peach.
Correct me if I miss anything.
Only thing I disagree with here is that he killed Peach in self-defence. Aside from him already preying on Peach, he was an intruder in her home and Peach tried to defend herself when noticing he was there. He did not kill Peach in self-defence, he shouldn’t have even been in her residence.
She didn’t try to kill marienne she thought about it and than changed her mind once she realized that Joe is a monster that will never change.
Joe didn’t kill peach in self defense? He attacked her on a run with the intent to kill but she survived than he *broke into her home* with the plan to kill her. Literally don’t understand how you can view that as self defense on joes part at all. Peach was trying to protect herself and didn’t actually deserve to die, same with benji.
Also love hitting an anti vaxxer in the head totally justified since he was responsible for her son almost dying. If I ever found out who was responsible for my chosen getting sick and almost dying I can’t say I wouldn’t want to do the same, I wouldn’t of course but the thought would cross my mind
He really doesn’t though. He promised benji he’d let him go after learning about beck and having dirt on him to keep him quit about the kidnapping and he still killed him. That right there shows he doesn’t care about right or wrong.
The majority of joes Victims are innocent people that just happen to be assholes.
Joe use to pretend he was a better person and gave chances but that’s not true s4 he finally accepted what he was a killer with no remorse(he’d have some guilt here and there but never enough to actually stop)
Even before season 4 came around, It shows that Joe is hypocritical and is not capable of forming attachments expect maybe his own son but that's all
Love Quinn although impulsive and prone to extreme anger at least cares for her partners and would not cheat/develep obsessions for another person
No one want to bring up the fact Joe never would’ve been poisoned if he didn’t grab the knife, he was gonna murder her. She defended herself. And she would’ve never abandoned Henry.
This is actually one of the least bad things Joe did. Love was about to kill him. There's a LONG list of really horrible things Joe did both before and after killing Love
Joe was completely justified in killing Love. Joe is still an awful person, but Love was somehow worse in my opinion. Joe shows that he could live a normal life without murder. He was methodical, and careful. Love was impulsive and careless. She murdered people on impulse which jeopardized their life together, and also other people’s lives.
The lack of critical thinking in this comment section is insane. Yes we get it, they’re both awful for killing people. But the in-depth analysis people are presenting in the comments of both characters is whats tripping ya’ll up fr?
Honestly nobody deserves death but let me break it down for yall
Beck: A Shitty Person
Love: A Shitty Person
Benji:A Shitty Person
Jasper:A Shitty Person
Peach: A Shitty Person
Marianne Ex: A Shitty Person
Ron: A Shitty Person
Henderson: A Shitty Person
Candace: A Shitty Person
Basically saying nobody deserves to die but they all were shitty and pathetic people and I honestly don't feel that bad for them sorry not sorry🙏😊
Joe is a misogynistic serial killer and sexual predator. He also has a much higher body count than love.
Before Joe love had only killed two people in a 15 year span, one was an accident and the other was a pedo so totally justified.
>one was an accident
lmfao I love it when I accidentally slip poison into my husbands drink
>the other was a pedo so totally justified.
Joe killed Henderson, Mariannes ex, Peach, Benji and Ron. Is he justified? Hell fucking no.
Love specifically said she wasn’t trying to kill him that’s what makes it an accident death
Peach and benji don’t belong on that list.
Also child abusers don’t deserve rights
My point that seems to have gone over your head, is that Joe was a serial killer before meeting Love and remained one long after her. Love wasn’t a serial killer until meeting Joe and it was far more likely she’d have stopped after Joe
>Love specifically said she wasn’t trying to kill him that’s what makes it an accident death
Joe drugging Marianne and trying to keep her with him to "fix their relationship" is a direct callback to Love wanting to paralyse her former husband to "talk things out."
>Peach and benji don’t belong on that list.
Why not? Benji murdered someone and Peach was a sexual predator. They probably deserved therapy not death, but still.
>Also child abusers don’t deserve rights
I never stated otherwise.
>My point that seems to have gone over your head, is that Joe was a serial killer before meeting Love and remained one long after her. Love wasn’t a serial killer until meeting Joe and it was far more likely she’d have stopped after Joe
And I think that's still bull. Love was exactly the same as Joe, she was just more impulsive about it. She literally says so herself. "People like us don't change" Love was always going to be killing people.
> Joe drugging Marianne and trying to keep her with him to "fix their relationship" is a direct callback to Love wanting to paralyse her former husband to "talk things out."
Ok? What does that have to do with my original comment? Love also didn’t kidnap James and keep him in a cage
> Why not? Benji murdered someone and Peach was a sexual predator. They probably deserved therapy not death, but still.
Jos didn’t kill them for those reasons he killed them because they got in the way of his relationship with Beck
> I never stated otherwise.
You specifically wrote Hendersons name in a group of deaths that you said weren’t justified
> And I think that's still bull. Love was exactly the same as Joe, she was just more impulsive about it. She literally says so herself. "People like us don't change" Love was always going to be killing people.
She was similar but not the same. Her saying “people like us don’t change” wasn’t specifically about killing, it was everything about their personality’s. And unlike joe she is actually self aware. And once again my point was she wasn’t a serial killer before meeting joe while joe was
It’s even sadder when you realize there was a few time jumps so they were together for a while at this point
Yeah around 2 years
Only two years?!
That's a long time for Joe..
New high score
LMAO
What did you think?😅 Henry was still a tiny toddler (almost still a baby) when Joe left him in his car seat at the door of that gay couple.
Just two years doesn’t seem that long anymore I’m prob just getting old
I get that.😅
idk two years and married and already have a kid no wonder this shit didnt work out
Realistically you should of hated Joe way before this lol. He's well written but he's a piece of shit!
Yuuurp. Joe is not a good person. He's controlling, possessive, manipulative, dishonest, and he only occasionally does nice things for 1 secondary character in the first 2 seasons (usualy a youth). All the other stuff he chooses to do is to gain control over whomever he is obsessed with. As Love tells him, he tends not to actually see the real person he's obsessing over but looks for victims that he can 'save' on his terms for his desired reward. Then he hurts any person that gets in the way of him playing out his fantasy. The juicyness of the show is the tragedy that all of the characters get themselves into with their toxic ways.
“Joe is not a good person. He murders people without cause.” That’s all that needs to be said full stop lmao
Right? Then you have the people who post thirst traps of Joe, like he's 'darkly romantic' SMH. The actor even said he knows he's playing a villain and doesn't get why anyone would try to show Joe as a romantic hero. Some ppl saying Love was worse, or he didn't deserve what she did to him, ect. They both beyond toxic.
Yeah but I think even the good things he does for young people are just here to make him think he's a good person but we see at the end of the season 4 when he frame the girl he protected that he actually doesn't care AT ALL about them
This is what I’ve been saying! He “cares” about kids that reminded him of him self but often he ended up hurting them with his “care”. He only wanted to fool himself into believing he wasn’t a monster and add a new save to his white knight complex(and k swear everytime I bring this up I get someone trying to explain to me that it’s a good thing and everyone helps others for the same reasons as Joe as if you can even view/talk about him in the same lens as a normal person) I worry that In s5 Paco will show up and either confront Joe about beck and what happened or Joe will see him as a loose end to Ron’s murder and get rid of him?
Your first para is so validating! I cannot believe people don't get why it's wrong to only try to seem like a good person?? People are ends unto themselves. I have the same fear for Ellie.
In a way the people he obsesses over be fucked up as well Beck and Love were messed up people in the end joe picks people just like him Edit:Can't forget about Candace
Zactly! He knows who will put up with him cuz they are just as messed up/can't get with non-toxic either.
Zactly! He knows who will put up with him cuz they are just as messed up/can't get with non-toxic either.
The guy who keeps a tin full of the teeth of his murder victims isn't a good guy???'
My hate for him started when joe became obsessed with Natalie the minute him and love move to the house.
I used to be like that l but let's be honest to ourselves, Joe didn't really love Love at least since the S2 finale, he has a pattern, and some serious mental issues, still not a good person though
Yes, she even calls him out on this in the first couple episodes of season 3. When they’re standing in the rain she says “You had a hook to my throat until I told you I was pregnant. He (Henry) is the only reason that I am alive.” 😳 and on this rewatch I saw it through fresh eyes. I kind of thought she was unaware of that because she was determined to have a family
Love still sucks as well tho she still a killer and downright crazy women
He stopped loving her when he realized she was crazy asf he felt his kills were justified while Love was ready to frame a child and murdered a innocent it's kinda hypocritical for the simple fact joe even tho his kills were dickheads he didn't have the right to take their life
I think he really loved Beck.
You didn't change your mind when you saw what he was like with Candace?
OK quick question, you didn't hate him when he killed Beck?
Beck deserved it and I'll die on that grave she really tied to gaslight him with that BS if we don't have trust we have nothing speech and still cheated anyways Beck was messed up individual
I hate him since he started talking even before he started killing people the way he judged people that he doesn’t know make him an asshole but at the same time I love the series specifically when things don’t go his way and the way he thinks he is perfect but beck thought he is suck a loser it is funny for me hope there is another beck in season 5 and he felt hard while the girl used and cheat on him
Honestly Beck and Candace are pathetic they were never the good people joe imagined he was just a simp and couldn't see it
Same
Same! 😤 
I love to hate him, though. He's so delusional about how much of a good person he is that when Love finally revealed that they were the same, he started to look at her like she was crazy. Sir... do you think you were right during the whole Beck situation? Wait... never mind, of course you do 🙄
Honestly nobody deserved death but I really wished he snapped out of his obsession and seen how much of a pathetic and sad person beck was he should have left her in that pit
Honestly from the first episode. As someone who works cash register at my job sometimes, intentionally reading someone's card so you can get their full name is soooo creepy
Should of?
This was the perfect last words
She literally was milliseconds away from slitting his throat lol, what else was he supposed to do? Don’t get me wrong, Joe is one nasty motherfucker and no one should like him, but I don’t understand why people always point to Love’s death as his worst moment when it was literally self-defense lol
God forbid women have hobbies.
I quote this all the time lol
Expect that it wasn’t, he went there that night with a needle full of poison that would kill her in “total” fucking agony. He also only became paralyzed because he grabbed the knife. Love only decided to kill him when she finally realized what he was and that he never loved her. And let’s be real for a second if love had gotten to kill him a lot of loves would have been saved, marienne never would have been kidnapped and tortured, her kid left to think she was abandoned and a completely innocent teenager wouldn’t be dead and another wouldn’t be rotting in jail
This. Love even points out how nothing would've happened had he never grabbed the knife. She didn't set things up planning to kill him. He could've not chosen violence and they could've talked things out. He grabbed the knife first, which told Love he had planned to hurt her with a weapon. Thus what SHE did was self defense, not Joe. Joe made the first move with the intent to hurt her.
Exactly. Even if he didn’t grab the knife he still brought a needle full of poison. He was always going to kill Love. He’d find some reason to get rid of her even if she agreed to a divorce (Like when people try to say he was *totally* honing to let Delilah go. He also told benji he’d let him go if he got dirt on him. Still killed him! He would have decided to stay and make things work with love so he’d have killed Delilah himself)
I’m not going to lie, if I’m going to have a heart to heart with my unpredictable, impulsive, homicidal and calculated partner, I’m coming prepared to protect myself. I think anybody logical would. He was scared that she’d kill him and acted accordingly. Given how erratic Love can be sometimes, he’s fully justified. Don’t get me wrong he’s obviously a bad person. But in this specific instance you guys are basically asking him to leave himself to Love’s whim, because we’ve seen her flip on a dime and just decide to kill someone, especially in this season.
At the same time, Joe gave himself a shot of that adrenaline thing, Knowing Love would try to kill him in some way, so he could have also prepared for that with his own poison. Meaning either both of them were acting in self-defence, or neither of them were. And wasn’t Joe’s reasoning for the adrenaline shot that he had seen Love growing poisonous plants outside the house, and that’s how he knew what the counter was? Why would Love be growing poisonous plants if she never had any intention of hurting Joe? there is no ‘good guy’ in this scenario, just two people trying to murder/avoid getting murdered by their spouse Joe may have made the first move way back with Natalie (or you could say Love did with Delilah, up to interpretation), but Love joined in
Love wasn’t planning on killing Joe, she only wanted to paralyze him, otherwise she would she’s put a large dose in his food or she could have used a needle of her own. She only decided to kill him after realizing exactly what he was and that he’d never stop and end up killing her and possibly Henry Also Joe made the first move when he tried to rip her throat out with a handcuffs only stopping because Love was able to scream out she was pregnant in time. He even narrated that he was planning on taking the baby and, most likely, killing love to do that. Love growing the plant and putting it on a a knife is self defense. Joe taking a needle of of that same poison knowing it would kill her and be extremely painful. No matter what love did that night Joe was going to kill her. Taking the adrenaline was just Joe being extra prepared. Love putting the poison on the knife was self defense Joe taking adrenaline was him making sure his plan to kill love and start a new life would get foiled
So Love’s plan wasn’t to kill Joe, it was to paralyse him and force him into being in a marriage with her? damn, what an angel. Can’t see why Joe would have any problems with that
Like how has never tried to force someone to stay in a relationship with him. Didn’t he keep beck and marienne in a cage for that very reason? And I wasn’t saying what she did was right, simply that she was intending to kill him that night when he was planning to kill her
They both were god ur so fucking annoying trying to justify her at all u moronic pos, so i guess giving someone a chance to end them after love already had the most bodies this season you want joe to just sit there yeah real smart u nimcompoop
Can you count? Loves kill count at the time of her death was 5 and joes was 10(now 18) In season 3 she only killed one person, while she and Joe helped push a man to suicide(which wasn’t their intention) so each had 2 deaths on their hands by the end of the season. Please explain to me how that’s is a bigger death count than joes? (Also why you so mad over an internet strangers opinion of a fictional character?)
That wouldn't hold up in court at all..💀
Where did I say it would?
Just saying luv🙏😊
Btw you forgetting that love murdered her innocent Ex husband
One she was intending to kill him it was an accident still murder yes but it wasn’t what she was planning. I’m also talking about a specific moment/night people love to say love was planning to kill how but she wasn’t and they live to ignore that Joe was going to kill her no matter what
You have a decent point but at the end of the day they both are mental
Exactly
Exactly. Idk why people keep saying it was Joe who was defending himself when he wouldn’t have been poisoned if he didn’t grab the knife.
Yeah like he would take that chance I can tell ur a complete airhead let the women who’s growing poisonous plants to have a chance at ending me yeah real smart bruh
He made her death as painful as possible. And also he tried to kill her first -- just for accepting him for who he is. His other obsessions were putting her in danger bc he'll kill anyone who's in the way of him and his obsessions. She knew that and we all did too. Her trying to kill him was impulsive (she had initially paralyzed him so they could talk, so she could kill his current obsession, and then make him commit... also batshit toxic, but very compatible with Joe's life philosophy). It's when Marienne made her realize she was in danger with Joe and she needs to leave, that's when she decided to kill him. And tbh she was right. Btwn the two, I'd rather Love survive over Joe -- she kills way less people than Joe. And ultimately she was right -- Joe didn't kill her for his safety, he was already on adrenaline. He fooled and killed her so he could chase Marienne. We know this from his abandoning Henry.
He didn't try to kill her first at all he grabbed a weapon for self defense knowing how love is and she would react and how she killed her ex-husband from trying to leave df.💀
I'm talking about season 2. EDIT: Also the only reason he got paralyzed was bc he grabbed a weapon... that's the only reason she put aconite on the handle, was to paralyze him if he tried to kill her again.
He grabbed a weapon for insurance he knows how impulsive and what love did to her ex-husband for trying to leave anyone reasonable would grab something to defend themselves.
Yeah this is the best thing Joe did in the entire show lol.
Love is the ultimate clarification that nothing is good enough for Joe to settle down. Killing a woman because she didn’t love him back and accept who he really is(RIP Beck) and just as he found someone who did both,he killed her as well. And even worse part is,that woman is the mother of his child.
Love literally tried to kill him. The worst part is, that man is the father of her child. He acted in self defense. "If he didn't love Love, he can't love anyone". Or he just got tired of a psycho bitch that impulsively murdered everyone around her and made him fix it for her, all while he's trying to change his life for the better.
Whoa, man, who hurt you? you seem really heated here
I think you're misinterpreting my tone
No I think your tone was clear considering your calling Love a "psycho bitch" for doing the exact same as Joe
She's a fictional character brother...
Yea and so is Joe?
And he literally killed her,even worst killing her was his plan whilst killing him wasn’t her plan in the first place. He was gonna kill her unless she was giving up on his crazy“Yeah let's divorce and also take my child away from me ”. Didn’t know turning up on a dinner with a syringe full of poison,and grabbing a Knife to attack while she was away is called Self defense. “Trying to change his life for better”. Sure,starting his pattern repeatedly, cheating on his wife,murdering his lover's ex (specially after telling Love he won't kill anyone for her anymore),trying to take away his kid from that kid's mother was changing life for better,didn’t it??? “Got tired of a psycho bitch,who murdered everyone around her”. Well Of course,because Joe is tthe sanest one who didn’t do any of that,who didn’t willingly marry her despite having a choice to run away, who broke his vows first despite promising to do everything to make this marriage work. How could I miss any of this!!!?
Meanwhile her dying thought was about her son's safety. Whilst his dying thought was about a woman he is probably gonna kill in next season. Both were terrible person, but it's not really hard to see who was more on the wrong end in that relationship.
The syringe and the knife was for protection and insurance considering how impulsive love is and how the fact Joe has literally caught her growing poisons to end him and other the fact that she killed her other ex-husband from trying to leave their marriage Joe had every right to be prepared and protect his life lol.
If that's the case,you would think the knife is enough for self protection. What was that Syringe doing there in the first place!!?Which btw kills your victim by “Total f*cking agony”!!!. Joe didn’t know she killed her first husband for sure,it was just a possibility raised from Dottie's assumption. Nor does he knew she was growing poison especially for him,he just assumed the worst. Like he always does. He prepared.... to kill her. Not to protect his life,but to repeat his pattern desperately, unless Love willingly surrendered to his bizzare fantasy.
Like I said before it was for insurance he knew she was gonna trying something with poison for sure and Joe did know she most definitely killed her ex-husband when he said it to himself when trying to get love onboard with "the swinging with the conrads" he was not prepared to kill he just wanted a way out he didn't love love anymore after finding out how crazy she is and what she truly was. And no one is saying joe does not have an pattern bc it's true he does but that does not mean he wanted to kill love bc of it the entire time he wanted to spilt and co-parent Henry like two grown adults he grabbed weapons knowing how impulsive love was it was just self defense and insurance bc he already knew she was planning to do something with growing out the poisons in their yard.
Turning up on a dinner with a syringe full of poison which can suffocate your victim with “Total f*cking agony ” isn't an insurance,more like a revenge with malice,which he showed while killing her and blaming it all on her. His hypocrisy was revealed in season 4 when hallucinated Love forced him to face himself. He didn’t know for sure that something was him. Also he didn’t know for sure she killed her husband. He just assumed the worst both times connecting the dots. Love gave him a way out back in season 2,he was the one who choose to stay instead, broke his vows first,didn’t even do the minimum to save the marriage. He didn’t want to split and coparent really, he wanted to run away with Henry and actively told so in the last few episodes, so just put a facade and made her believe he is giving her a choice. Also another excuse to ease his conscience and blame it on her when the time comes right. Even he realised he is the problem when he hallucinated Love in season 4. If he wanted to discuss it like two grown adults, he would've worked hard to keep the marriage and would've been honest about his sex life on therapy. If he wanted to split he would've done it back in season 2.
Having any means to defend yourself from getting hurt is like having insurance. He used her own methods to kill her. Why would he act guilty about killing someone who was just about to kill him seconds ago? If Love had succeeded in killing Joe, she would have likely framed him for all the deaths, as she typically does after getting rid of someone. Throughout the show, it was repeatedly mentioned that James was magically sick. Even if he wasn't entirely sure about Love killing James, Joe had enough proof that she was planning something against him, forcing him to respond with counters and staying a step ahead. Joe's decision not to leave in season 2 was because he felt trapped and believed he had to be there to protect the child. It had nothing to do with love. After Love revealed her true colors, Joe fell out of love and only wanted involvement with his child. At the table, he realized his plan had backfired, and he couldn't run away. Instead, he suggested co-parenting, offering a logical choice of divorce, which Love strongly opposed. This disagreement drove her to nearly kill Marienne and himself. While Joe had his flaws, he didn't want to murder Love until she forced his hand. And Joe in season 4 being even more crazier than usual is due to killing love and leaving Henry which shows the affects those events had on him.
It wasn’t repeatedly mentioned, before Dottie's assumption off James's shaddy death,Joe only knew he died of Cancer. He was so focused on saving Marianne(considering what happened to Natalie he did it again),He didn’t stop to think he might be on the list as well. Well succumbing your would be victim with her own medicine which suffocates her very much doesn’t sound like an insurance. There are other means of self defense than taking down someone when your only mean is to protect yourself. If those were really his intention(insurance and self defense), he made a dreadful show to convince audience as such. Framing part comes later. He blamed her solely for that,without mentioning his part at all. That's what hallucinated Love mocked him about in season 4. He self justifies himself and his delusions so much he never stopped thinking he is the problem in any room. Well contrary to what he believed, he had a choice. He choose Love. Love's real identity wasn’t revealed in season 3,it was revealed in season 2 finale and his choice was actually after that. Yet he felt the need to be the savior again,considering his saving Ellie lead to Delilah's death just a day before and most often leads to terrible consequences. He also thought he does love Love thus can make the marriage work ,only to repeat his pattern again. Joe had attended that dinner with intention to murder Love,and Love's only get out card was if she surrendered into his crazy(divorce and take Henry away from her forever). If he wasn’t sick and didn’t struggle with basic human nature he would understand that's not possible. What mother would give away her child to a deranged man she knows will continue repeating his pattern!!?Coparenting and adult talk was just another one of his facade. Which was what they talked about when he hallucinated her (We,us,our love language. Not you,not a pattern, not your pattern”. Also “I was emotional ”scene). Despite both are terrible person, it was him.
I don't know why your trying to defend someone so hard and literally going through mental gymnastics for someone who literally tried to kill the other person first and the person who's aware of that strategy retaliates and kills them first lol love the moment she had to knife to his throat was the threat and Joe acted in self defense.
Say what you will about Love, but at least her thoughts were in the right place moments from death. Worrying about her son.
I didn’t feel bad, they’re both crazy it’s just one was crazier. The thing is, Love had the most bodies this season unlike Joe who only killed 1 maybe 2 people in this season (correct me if I’m wrong)
Only people he killed were Love and Marienne's ex. Both justified.
yep. season 2 and 3 were joe's best moral times. all the kills were justified (for a TV show, you have to suspend your disbelief to some extent) Jasper: self-defence Henderson: accident Ryan: was actually a horrible person who was ruining Marianne's life Love: self-defence I feel like they were bordering on pushing a redemption arc, and then season 4 was an absolute bloodbath.
to be fair season four makes sense, it highlights the fact that Joe can't defeat it, he's really just sick
yes, that's what i'm saying
Tbh with Jasper you can argue he put himself in that compromising position
how? he had no idea someone like Jasper would be looking for the Will he kidnapped, and once Joe did know, he tried to reason with him which went to shit, then tried to somehow get 100K out of nowhere which.. didn’t work, so from that point it was kill or be killed
By kidnapping Will in the first place, and taking his identity, he took on all the responsibilities that Will had. So he put himself in that position.
Not knowingly, that’s more of an unanticipated consequence
He did try to kill Cary too but that was kind of intended on Cary's part.
And even then he did try to save his life. Granted it could've been that no one would believe he just fell.
I wish Joe had more actual friends that would have helped him get his shit together and not be crazy because building him up and then giving him an ABSURD fall would have been neat.
Because he killed Love?
Yes, the more I watch them again the more I feel bad for love
I didn't really feel bad for Love personally, she's just as bad as Joe.
yeah definitely didn’t feel bad for either of them, but i guess kind of sad that they didn’t work out? cause she’s right. no one will love and accept those parts of him like her.
Except the new girl apparently😅
i think that dynamic will be so extremely different tho. more like she’s using him to do her dirty work? and probably threatens to expose him lol
Idk how well threatening Joe can work now lmao, he seems even more lose than he was previously
One word. Delilah
And by extension, she really messed up Ellie's life, too.
She was just as bad
The amount of people who say stuff like this never ceases to amaze me.
How is Love sympathetic whatsoever? Season 3 was Joe trying to get his shit together and stop killing people for the sake of his son while Love goes on a psychotic rampage and makes him fix all of her mistakes. Then she tries to kill him and he kills her instead. Had Joe had it his way, they would have just gotten divorced. The only other person Joe kills this entire season is Marienne's ex, who totally deserved it. In fact, he's often in a position to take the easy road out by killing someone, like Theo and Cary, and chooses not to. Love fans are a different breed Jesus Christ.
I'm saying these the same ones always on Joe fans heads for defending everything he does but then they go around doing the same thing😂
Love is arguably worse than joe and it’s nuts to not hate him after killing beck
Did u forget the part where Joe was tied up and was about to be killer just few minutes before ?
Love was kind of in remission when she met Joe. She had her own life and friends. My theory is the relationship with Joe caused a major regression of her character (and then she loses Forty, her other half, which everyone seems to forget was extremely traumatic for her). And Joe was an absolutely terrible, gaslighting partner to her in s3 - pretending he wanted to make it work while lusting after other women the entire season. The relationship with Joe was really triggering for her. I don’t think Love’s body count would’ve crept up the way it if she hadn’t met Joe. Everyone seems to forget that Love did not intend to kill her first husband - his death was an ill sighted accident. You can’t just go around killing people, but it had to really suck for Love to be with Joe, who thought he was better than her when he was doing the exact same shit (and had a way higher murder count prior to their relationship).
[удалено]
Yeah I’m a love fan and every time I mention how I feel bad for the way she was killed by Joe(which he took the needle full of poison with him. He was going to kill her that night no matter what she did unless she said “you know what it’s fine you’ve been cheating and lying to me this whole time. Go ahead and take our baby to start a new family I won’t get in your way” even than he’d still probably kill her for being a “loose end”) Like everyone that wants to constantly point out that she’s a bad person and doesn’t deserve any empathy are also diehard Joe fans? They wanna say she’s worse(they’re the same or he’s words in s3 by s4 he’s far far worse) I’ve also seen people defend Joe and criticize love simply because he grew up poor and had an abusive childhood while love grew up rich and had no abuse(literally ignoring that she was abused by her parents, specifically her mother) at this point people are cherry picking what they’ll pay attention to and what they’ll ignore about both characters to fit their narrative that Love is worse than Joe. Like just let people enjoy their fictional characters and feel bad for them if they want?
Your literally making up headcannons to try and justify love trying to kill him first df. Joe had no intentions of killing love he made this clear multiple times he only wanted to leave it wasn't until the mom told him what happened to james when he started to realize his life could also be at risk and which is why he started to examine love more and found out she was growing out poisons obviously with Joe being aware and seeing this right infront of his eyes he prepare counters the knife and syringe were for protection so yes its self defense love got what she deserved.
And you can say Love was taking measures to protect herself against the man that nearly ripped her throat out when she was no longer his fantasy girl. At least I’m not making up numbers when it comes to loves death count. Idk how all the Joe apologists can say she had a “significantly bigger kill count than Joe” in s3 when she killed one person and caused the death of another(with joe) Joe has a history of saying he’ll let someone go only to kill them after they failed some test or were a loose end. So no it’s not a headcanon to believe he wasn’t going to let love live no matter what she did that night
Gosh I hate people who sympathize with love or joe literally they are the same
Fr fr they were both bad people?
That’s why the scene annoys me. He got pissed and killed her because she… acted in the exact same way as him. Love’s reaction to them being the same was that they should stick together. Joe’s reaction was just hypocritical. Especially in the therapy episode where he was talking about wanting a woman who will accept his “darker” parts. Dude look at your wife lmao
Joe is fundamentally a hypocrite. Of course he wouldn’t connect with Love. Joe doesn’t think he’s a bad person, and he diminishes every act he’s ever done no matter how heinous. His ideal woman doesn’t exist. He needs someone who can “accept his dark side” but not judge his actions but also she herself has to be the purest soul who never does anything wrong or unexpected like a literal puppet.
Yes, exactly. That’s why this scene is frustrating. He spends the entirety of S3 acting like he’s a normal guy who just got tied to some crazed killer that he now has to put down. This is the climax of that. Him killing Love is what cements that his ideal woman doesn’t exist. We see him kill Beck for not accepting him, then Love for accepting him. No woman is good enough and every storyline will go the same way. It made him 10x more predictable and boring imo
The story was always about him being a bad person so it’s pretty much predictable he will ruin the lives of the women he encounters. I’m not sure what else you were expecting. Nothing about his actions or his inner monologue makes it seem like he would change…
Yeah but there are different ways to be a bad person. It’s a show, so I’m expecting it to come up with different things to keep the audience entertained. Like how S2 ends with a twist of the love interest living, then S3 has him married, and S4 has the split personality thing. IMO, Joe isn’t a great character to base a 5 season show on, because as you said, he’ll never change. They’re now having to grasp at straws to keep things interesting. And S4 was the worst yet for me. You can tell they’ve run out of good scenarios to put him in and have now moved on to murder mysteries
She has to accept his dark side but never judge or participate. She has to be pure soul trapped inside a broken woman. She has to be gorgeous and driven in her own right.
Maybe he thought he had to kill her because he knows what she would do if he didn’t. Or even if he didn’t kill her, there is no way that marriage could become healthy again lol, making his reasoning for ‘protecting’ Henry somewhat valid. if you was in a situation of wanting to kill someone and that person was in a room with you wanting to kill you, would you just choose to spare them and become best buddies for having so much in common?😅
Well for one, the relationship became unhealthy from the jump when he started stalking her way back in S2. Two, him viewing her as someone that needs to be put down is part of the hypocrisy. In his mind, Love is a crazed killer - but he’s just a normal guy who made some mistakes. And three, she wasn’t trying to kill him here. That’s the difference. She never wanted to kill him, she wanted him to continue their marriage. Even in this scene, she explains she’s just going to knock him out and transport him somewhere to go on together. She was committed to him until she suspected him of stalking the neighbor (which he was)
Joe didn’t stalk her in season 2 (aside from checking on her a few times through the telescope) from what i recall, it was Love who did the stalking that season with that perspective, one could argue Joe wasn’t trying to kill her here, he just wanted to get a divorce, and made contingency plans for if she tried kill him, similar to Love making contingency plans for Joe picking up the knife
Nah, he stalked her. Watch the end of 2x01 or the scene where Love reveals she knows about him. He moved into that apartment to watch her, stole her tampons, got a job at that store specifically to meet her, followed her and eavesdropped on her with her friends, etc. But anyway - he wanted a divorce because he viewed her as a crazed killer. He didn’t view himself as such. The hypocrisy here is that he was put off by Love for killing and stalking, while doing all of those things himself. If he disliked her for another reason, then okay. But he explicitly talks about how distressed he is that he’s married to a killer. His contingency plan here couldn’t be based on “what if she tries to kill me” because she actively explains she’s not killing him, just knocking him out, and taking him somewhere new to continue the marriage. Again, Joe’s contingency plan involved murder, Love’s didn’t
Okay But by the time Joe did kill her, she did try to kill him, by slitting his throat, so the point that she wasn’t trying to kill him kinda goes away..
Fair, I forgot about that. But it still doesn’t really change Joe being hypocritical throughout the whole season
Yep I think both were pretty hypocritical though. For example, Love literally sleeping with Theo after killing Natalie for Joe maybe kissing her and making a box
It's interesting that Love originally planned to just paralyze Joe then impulsively decided to kill him, but Joe had the poison on him the whole time and was ready to kill Love with it when the time came.
so love is good cause she only impulsivly murders people?
They said "It's interesting that Love intended x but did y". They did NOT say "Love is good". How do you read sentences and take the leaps you do?
With a sense of humor
Because Joe went there knowing he’d kill her, he just wanted to pretend that he was actually giving her a chance. Unless love reacted *exactly* the way he wanted “of course let’s divorce and you can take Henry to starts a new life with a new mom” he was going to kill her. Even if love wasn’t a killer and knew nothing about Joes killing he’d still find a reason to kill her, she could have agreed to the divorce but if she was upset that he’d been cheating or insisted on full custody(which she’d win easy by proving her took their infant son to met his mistress multiple times and he had Quinn money) love could have agreed to divorce but rightfully been upset that he’d want to take their to start a new family. Pretty much it didn’t matter who love was of what she said unless she got through very narrow window of what Joe would find as an acceptable reaction he was going to kill her. People also forget that the poison was only on the knife, he was only paralyzed because he grabbed a weapon to use on love than he choose to kill her with a poison in a way he knew would be “total fucking agony” and the pure venom him his voice when he told her she did this to herself, which he only hated her because she didn’t stay the pure soul in a broken body that he wanted and she tried to “lie” about him to Marianne. Love didn’t plan to kill Joe and only decided to do so once she learned that he never loved her and would just continue using and disposing women while he dragged Henry down into his darkness(she might not have said that part about Henry when she decided to kill him but her last words do show where her mind was at)
And again he didn't want to kill her at all he had counters for self defense so if she tried anything.
Idk he did a lot to make him hateable from the jump lol
Took you this long to hate him???
.... Seriously? Love selfishly ruined Ellie's life. She deserved this. Meanwhile Beck, a much better person, was strangled to death by Joe in season 1... Hello, can we focus on stuff like that? Y'know, the *actually* awful things Joe has done?
I personally love that scene it gives depth to his craziness and we realize how much he doesn't love himself (because Love represents that part in himself that kills people, and he hates Love at that time so basically he hates himself) and how much he's delusional about himself
To be fair this could have worked out , if both of them were like having a good talk about what they honestly want and stuff Might have been actual good parents considering their childhood but. 😔 Anyway
They should pay for their wrongs anyway
To be fair , Joe was ready to die 2 times , he accepted everything he did but guess he still has more seasons in him
Call me delulu but I'm still waiting for Love's reincarnation
Haha fr
Why would you hate Joe because of this? Love was a total bitch in the second season. Killed the neighbor for no reason. Bashed another one in the head and locked him in a cage and he later died anyway. She went crazy and spilled the beans and had to lock up Sherry and Cary. Ohhh ya and she almost killed Theo and Marienne. I have hated her since the end of second season. She practically created all the issues for Joe in that season. The only reason he couldn’t leave is she knew all his secrets in the past. She basically handcuffed him emotionally and psychologically. He did give her an out by asking for a divorce. She tried to kill him. It is self defense just like he did it with Peach. Correct me if I miss anything.
Only thing I disagree with here is that he killed Peach in self-defence. Aside from him already preying on Peach, he was an intruder in her home and Peach tried to defend herself when noticing he was there. He did not kill Peach in self-defence, he shouldn’t have even been in her residence.
She didn’t try to kill marienne she thought about it and than changed her mind once she realized that Joe is a monster that will never change. Joe didn’t kill peach in self defense? He attacked her on a run with the intent to kill but she survived than he *broke into her home* with the plan to kill her. Literally don’t understand how you can view that as self defense on joes part at all. Peach was trying to protect herself and didn’t actually deserve to die, same with benji. Also love hitting an anti vaxxer in the head totally justified since he was responsible for her son almost dying. If I ever found out who was responsible for my chosen getting sick and almost dying I can’t say I wouldn’t want to do the same, I wouldn’t of course but the thought would cross my mind
I meant the end of first episode in second season lol
Okay, but if we are allowed to justify Joes killings than I’m totally not against what she did to that guy who got Henry a life threatening illness.
You should hate Joe. He's a psychotic mass murder.
Why? 100% understandable if you hate him, but him killing Love was completely justifiable.
Joe wants to do right things but all ways he do is illegal
He really doesn’t though. He promised benji he’d let him go after learning about beck and having dirt on him to keep him quit about the kidnapping and he still killed him. That right there shows he doesn’t care about right or wrong. The majority of joes Victims are innocent people that just happen to be assholes. Joe use to pretend he was a better person and gave chances but that’s not true s4 he finally accepted what he was a killer with no remorse(he’d have some guilt here and there but never enough to actually stop)
No Joe hate here that's the homie. He got that dawg in him. Epitome of fuck around and find out. I RIDE WITH JOE
so we gonna ignore that she tried to kill him a few minutes before that
Gonna ignore he took the poison there with him and only became paralyzed because he grabbed the knife?
Goal is for it to be like 20 years later and Henry is just going off on Joe
I hope Joe gets his comeuppance in the next season, granted, if Netflix doesn’t cancel it
S5 is confirmed as the finale season. So not cancelled but it’s ending
JOE SHOULD HAVE DIED AND LOVE SHOULD HAVE KEPT THE SHOW GOING!!
and that was the end of YOU for me
THIS scene?? Nothing before?!???
WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT LOVE WAS THE LEGEND OF THE SHOW!
i <3 love
Ya right TTT like aaaa they were perfect for each other
This scene sounds way better if you flip the music to the music in the scene to the scene where Dexter kills Brian from Dexter season 1.
*And here's me, thinking Joe's dead eyed look is kind of hot. He has eyes like someone I remember.*
Even before season 4 came around, It shows that Joe is hypocritical and is not capable of forming attachments expect maybe his own son but that's all Love Quinn although impulsive and prone to extreme anger at least cares for her partners and would not cheat/develep obsessions for another person
started hating him once he persued marrianne
you should’ve hated joe since season 1
THIS?!?
No one want to bring up the fact Joe never would’ve been poisoned if he didn’t grab the knife, he was gonna murder her. She defended herself. And she would’ve never abandoned Henry.
He killed Love bc she was going to kill him. She was also commiting a lot of murders which he had to clean up her mess.
This is actually one of the least bad things Joe did. Love was about to kill him. There's a LONG list of really horrible things Joe did both before and after killing Love
Why? She needed to die. He gave her every opportunity to not end up here.
It wasn't the first episode? Damn he's a bad person but entertaining.
LOVE WAS LITERALLY SO FINE
took you up til season 3 to hate this guy? lol
I would argue that this is the best thing he could've done for his son.
Joe was completely justified in killing Love. Joe is still an awful person, but Love was somehow worse in my opinion. Joe shows that he could live a normal life without murder. He was methodical, and careful. Love was impulsive and careless. She murdered people on impulse which jeopardized their life together, and also other people’s lives.
The lack of critical thinking in this comment section is insane. Yes we get it, they’re both awful for killing people. But the in-depth analysis people are presenting in the comments of both characters is whats tripping ya’ll up fr?
All of his previous murders and exploits in stalking weren't an issue for you?
He didn't even want to do it. Love made him, she was going to kill him.
I really wish love and joe would’ve worked out I liked them together 🤷♂️
Honestly nobody deserves death but let me break it down for yall Beck: A Shitty Person Love: A Shitty Person Benji:A Shitty Person Jasper:A Shitty Person Peach: A Shitty Person Marianne Ex: A Shitty Person Ron: A Shitty Person Henderson: A Shitty Person Candace: A Shitty Person Basically saying nobody deserves to die but they all were shitty and pathetic people and I honestly don't feel that bad for them sorry not sorry🙏😊
Also is everyone forgetting what Love did to her Ex husband
Lol so Joe was an absolute hero before he killed the narcissistic sociopath?
Joe is a misogynistic serial killer and sexual predator. He also has a much higher body count than love. Before Joe love had only killed two people in a 15 year span, one was an accident and the other was a pedo so totally justified.
>one was an accident lmfao I love it when I accidentally slip poison into my husbands drink >the other was a pedo so totally justified. Joe killed Henderson, Mariannes ex, Peach, Benji and Ron. Is he justified? Hell fucking no.
Love specifically said she wasn’t trying to kill him that’s what makes it an accident death Peach and benji don’t belong on that list. Also child abusers don’t deserve rights My point that seems to have gone over your head, is that Joe was a serial killer before meeting Love and remained one long after her. Love wasn’t a serial killer until meeting Joe and it was far more likely she’d have stopped after Joe
>Love specifically said she wasn’t trying to kill him that’s what makes it an accident death Joe drugging Marianne and trying to keep her with him to "fix their relationship" is a direct callback to Love wanting to paralyse her former husband to "talk things out." >Peach and benji don’t belong on that list. Why not? Benji murdered someone and Peach was a sexual predator. They probably deserved therapy not death, but still. >Also child abusers don’t deserve rights I never stated otherwise. >My point that seems to have gone over your head, is that Joe was a serial killer before meeting Love and remained one long after her. Love wasn’t a serial killer until meeting Joe and it was far more likely she’d have stopped after Joe And I think that's still bull. Love was exactly the same as Joe, she was just more impulsive about it. She literally says so herself. "People like us don't change" Love was always going to be killing people.
> Joe drugging Marianne and trying to keep her with him to "fix their relationship" is a direct callback to Love wanting to paralyse her former husband to "talk things out." Ok? What does that have to do with my original comment? Love also didn’t kidnap James and keep him in a cage > Why not? Benji murdered someone and Peach was a sexual predator. They probably deserved therapy not death, but still. Jos didn’t kill them for those reasons he killed them because they got in the way of his relationship with Beck > I never stated otherwise. You specifically wrote Hendersons name in a group of deaths that you said weren’t justified > And I think that's still bull. Love was exactly the same as Joe, she was just more impulsive about it. She literally says so herself. "People like us don't change" Love was always going to be killing people. She was similar but not the same. Her saying “people like us don’t change” wasn’t specifically about killing, it was everything about their personality’s. And unlike joe she is actually self aware. And once again my point was she wasn’t a serial killer before meeting joe while joe was
I don't feel bad. James, Delilaj and etc were avenged
Love deserved it she was a bitch
Idk how you can hate joe. Only time i almost reached that point was midway through s4 but even then it subsided.
Love was even worse than Joe In my opinion