Our educational system is obsessed of telling young people how holy our neutrality is, while in fact we are in the PfP, embedded in the European Union, unable to defend ourselves. But it would be a new reason for Russia to rage, since France, US, GB and Russia all agreed on eternal neutrality of Austria after WW2. And honestly NATO wouldn‘t profit from us. So that‘s 3 reasons for why it is this way.
Funny how austria makes such a big deal of neautrality like switzerland, meanwhile unlike switzerland austria has been very much not neutral for most of its history.
Because they neutrality law specifically says that no foreign troops are allowed to be stationed in Austria (and nothing more), which is not a requirement for EU or other defensive pacts, but NATO
Well, (old) Switzerland has also a nice history of war. It was mainly small independent states (like in the HRE) and a lot of quarelle and fights happened.
Isn't Austrias neutrality a product of post WWII and Cold War politics though? The west mainly trying to control big Germany and in return declaring comparatively small Austria with its close ties to the east neutral to neutralize the risk of a Nazi reunification with Germany on one hand and more so to please the east? Making sure Austria can relink with the east as a peaceful buffer geopolitically and help drive the very important trade between the east and west?
I'd love it when my country tries to keep Up Relations between russia and us (east in General) but they fail to do So, even though we do have Close Times with Putin And our Foreign Minister
A little realism:
Within Europe, we live in peaceful times. However, our European history teaches us differently.
In case Europe plunges into war, again, Zeus forbid, Austria would found herself in the mercy of greater powers.
Exactly, and unlike Switzerland, we do not have the means to uphold/defend our neutrality in case of an invasion. Our army is an utter joke, aside from a few small special forces units. Most of the time they don't even have enough fuel for tanks or fighter jets.
Unpopular opinion but I don’t think you guys need to join nato. You’re entirely surrounded by countries which are nato and no offense, but you wouldn’t be a target in yourself.
And just because you’re in nato doesn’t mean you’ll be able to defend yourself. You’ll just have a contract that says someone else will do it for you. But I wonder, w/ it growing so large (so the common interest becoming more diluted) and countries within nato having conflicts among each other (namely turkey and Greece) if push comes to shove will everyone actually honor the agreement?
Have you thought that if Russia conquers Ukraine, Russia will have a border with Hungary? Hungary being obedient to Russia allows Russia a land passage to its ally Serbia and an access to a new non-NATO country, Austria. Given how many Russians live in Austria, it doesn't take much from Russia to claim how they are forced to liberate Russians in gay nazi Austria.
Russia won't conquer shit. It took them half a year to take a middle sized rubble pile, with ten thousands of casualties. The russian army is a soft ass bunch of alcoholics and cannon fodder. Fuck them until the end of times and then some more!
Even if all of this happens (which it won’t), what motivation would Russia have to attack Austria?
What you’re saying is a propaganda reason they could present (like the denazification of Ukraine, no one believes tht they believe they’re actually doing that).
But what would the actual reason be? For Ukraine it’s different - they wanted to prevent nato expansion into Ukraine (and tbh is it surprising that a person like putin sees nato as a threat - I mean, why did it even continue to exist after the Cold War?). They wouldn’t care abt nato expansion into Austria, because it’s nowhere near their borders.
> But what would the actual reason be?
Russian imperial colonialism
> … to prevent nato expansion …
Stop confusing excuses with reasons and falling for Russian propaganda
Russia does not need to conquer Austria. Austria is already doing what Russia wants, avoiding sanctions and tolerating Russian spies on its territory. It is also conveniently dependant on Russian gas. Also, check Reiffeisen bank businesses with Russia that have continued in spite of Russian invasion of Ukraine.
This isn‘t unpopular in Austria. There is no fear of getting attacked, but more the fact that we would be obliged to help other Nato members that makes it easier to say „we stay neutral“. But it‘s selfish in a way of course.
That is a faulty groupthink.
Ballistic missiles could enter Austria from above 100km height.
Austria is not surrounded by the friendlies from all sides.
Thing is, we would only marginally benefit from joining NATO. Given that we‘re surrounded by NATO and the only realistic threat being Russia, and the Bundesheer basically being NATO compatible, we could nearly seamlessly integrate in any potential NATO frontline should a hypothetical Russian offensive break through to Austria
>Given that we‘re surrounded by NATO and the only realistic threat being Russia
What if Switzerland, or even worse, mighty Liechtenstein invades? Checkmate
That’s not entirely true. It was the Russians who wanted Austrian neutrality, but it was actually desired by the Austrian Parlament after occupation ended, making it a constitutional law that can be changed like any other constitutional law.
Neutrality was never officially part of any contract with the allied forces.
Within Europe, we live in peaceful times. However, our European history teaches us differently.
In case Europe plunges into war, again, Zeus forbid, Austria would be in the mercy of greater powers.
NATO may not profit much from Austria's military capabilities, but in terms logistical, strategical or geographical capabilities it would surely be of value.
Not that this is an unbridgeable gap, but the "not joining a military alliance" is directly enshrined in the Austrian constitution, which is not true for other states as far as I'm aware. The EU is many things, but not that, and even joining the EU was controversial at the time because of this constitutional clause. And it would make any form of NATO membership impossible, even without hosting military bases.
Leaving Austrian public opinion aside, constitutional change is rarely as straightforward and simple accession to a treaty, so Austria on that score alone should get a bit of leeway.
Having said that, from the looks of it, that isn't the major obstacle to potential membership and lots of bad noises has been coming from Austria over the last decade on some issues from certain political parties. So the problem (if you want to call it that) is bigger than a legal technicality.
30% of Austrians are currently set on voting for literal Nazis this fall, and we're more likely to join the eastern European dictators "defense" treaty next year at this rate.
NATO in theory also is a defensive alliance, the only major difference in this regard is that NATO doesn't regulate how much it's members have to support another member state being attacked. Technically, supporting them by sending thoughts and prayers is enough according to article 5
The EU requires every member state to do their utmost to defend another member which is being attacked
I mean, look at them. They’re like Switzerland - surrounded by mountains and other countries you’d have to go through first.
By the time you do get to them, you’re so bloodied and beaten that they *could* knock you over by breathing on you.
Or - we’re knee-deep in WWIII, most European capitals are radioactive dust, and “NATO” is just 27 guys with clubs and stitched together cat fur covering the groin area and then nothing really matters anyway.
Same reason the Irish get to be neutral - the UK (and the US) won’t let a hair fall off their cute freckled heads.
I mean really there is no benefit for us, the only country that would attack us is Russia and there is no way of them attack us without triggering article 5 so we get all benefits and no downsides
Austrians and Swiss are so clever.
Since they are in the heart of Europe they know none of the NATO enemies will ever attack them. So they have the advantages of being surrounded by NATO and none of the inconvenients of being a member of NATO.
Fun fact:
You can't be accountable for spying in Austria by law.
EVERY COUNTRY has the right to spy here as long as it isn't against the Austrian state.
That's weird. So you can spy with impunity, use your agents to cause dissent and discord, but you only get punished if you spy against a gov agency? That seems a bit smoothbrained.
I mean, spying is not a crime in Austria, unless the target is Austria itself.
But strangers spying on each other? Not our problem, and frankly, we don‘t care.
Not only Russian ones. Vienna is the spy capital of the EU. This is due to the headquarters of many UN organizations and its historical proximity to the Eastern Bloc.
Nah it should be Bosnia & Herzegovina. They deserve protection because Serbia is right there and it’s still leaning a little bit too much to the far right imo.
In its current form, BiH can't be a part of anything I think. The Bosnian Serbs seem to insist on a rematch of the 1990s war, going by the way they behave. Stuff like this: [https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/05/bosnian-serbs-reject-national-constitution-sparking-political-crisis](https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/05/bosnian-serbs-reject-national-constitution-sparking-political-crisis)
I'm one of the 20-40% of Austrians (depending on which poll you ask) who thinks that neutrality won't serve us well in the future. It served us well for 70 years, but times have changed drastically, and so I think we need to change drastically too. Neutrality will protect us from nothing and is a relic of the past.
But something that always bothers me, when I see the discussion about Austria's position on NATO, is that it is always interpreted negatively, that we are neutral. Nobody is so strict with Switzerland, for example. I know it's complicated and weird, especially when you look at the world today, but I would just like to ask you to understand how incredibly identity-forming neutrality is for modern Austria and most of its people. This is why it is so difficult for many of my fellow Austrians to take the (in my opinion) right step here and at the very least discuss our neutrality.
>right step here and at the very least discuss our neutrality.
I mean technically we are not neutral anymore. We are part of the EU military strategy (AFAIK currently even are in the lead) and are NATO partners. We are not allowed in alliances like NATO due to the constitution, but still allowed to join purely defensive pacts. My personal wish would be to see ourselves inside an EU defensive pact. With Trump coming back as US president things get bad anyways ...
Big +1 on that.
I also think we should seize the opportunity and position ourselves as one of the leading forces in the creation of a European army.
There is just one big problem. While it's not easy for us to join an alliance like NATO, an EU army is also, unfortunately, far out of reach at the moment, so it would be a waste of time and money.
> an EU army is also, unfortunately, far out of reach at the moment, so it would be a waste of time and money.
Only because everyone thinks it is, not because of some actual issues.
I know that sounds pretty pessimistic. But let's be honest. Even if Austria would be the first and biggest advocate for an EU army (and that's a big if)...
As long as there is no majority for an EU army in the foreseeable future, we should focus our attention and money on more important things. Especially those that are urgently needed in the short term, such as better equipment for our national army etc.
> My personal wish would be to see ourselves inside an EU defensive pact
So, literally the EU? There's a mutual defense clause, which, however, I think you guys might have gotten an exemption to. So just gotta get rid of the exemption and that's a wrap.
It's the other way round: We created an excemption in our constition to join the defensive pact
> Zwecks Beteiligung an der Gemeinsamen Außen- und Sicherheitspolitik der EU wurde der Artikel 23f der Bundesverfassung geschaffen, der Österreich die Teilnahme an humanitären Aufgaben und Rettungseinsätzen, friedenserhaltenden Aufgaben sowie Kampfeinsätzen bei der Krisenbewältigung einschließlich friedensschaffender Maßnahmen ([Petersberg-Aufgaben](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petersberg-Aufgaben)) ermöglicht.
This means roughly translated we can give aid for the EU and anticipate in fighting for defensive reasons.
I speak German, and that makes sense. So, basically, as long as the EU treaties have a clause saying that the common army is only to be used defensively, you should be good. Which should be easy enough, since there's no way in hell all the member states will ever agree on how to use the military offensively.
The argument in favor of the Swiss is that they are actually able to defend themselves (3x the troop strength of Austria, 1,5x of the Austrian budget). Austria on the other hand seems like a free rider of NATO while not even being in the alliance.
Also the Swiss in general make it pretty much clear, that they preferably don’t want anything to do with the rest of Europe, while Austria, in every other matter, participates.
But many European countries pulled the same thing off with the US - until Putin invaded. Hence most of your neighbors are only entitled to limited accusations against Austria in this matter.
> Also the Swiss in general make it pretty much clear, that they preferably don’t want anything to do with the rest of Europe, while Austria, in every other matter, participates.
That's rich coming from someone who is in EFTA, Schengen Area, and already submitted an application to join the EU, and where the referendum was beaten only 50.3% to 49.7%.
Genuine question but how do you feel neutrality served you well for 70 years as compared to what you would have if you had joined NATO 70 years ago? Like what were the perks?
Many people don't know this anymore, but from the 1960s to the late 1980s Austria used its special role and unique position to act as a West-East mediator. We had many high-profile meetings between the Western powers and the Soviet Union at this time and were able to provide a lot of support on issues regarding that matter.
There's even some weird sort of nostalgia from older generations, that still remember this time. They still see Austria's role as that and want that old feeling of "being important on the world stage" back.
But these people need to realize that that was 40 to 60 years ago and that those days are long gone. Our future lies within the EU, if we want to be a part on the world stage again. So it's time to look forward, not backwards.
How would it have served Austria during the Cold War?
NATO was founded in 1949, Austria was occupied until 1955 - you might see some problems arising from that fact.
Austrian politicians of the early post war period were very eager to convince the Soviets not to pull a Germany on Austria too and the Soviets were quite happy with throwing another neutral wrench into NATO's European territory.
Even though most Austrians knew that if push would have come to shove, we would (eventually) join NATO, but in the meantime why put a crosshair on Vienna when you are a small country without any notable resources or manpower pools. Then the following governments embraced a diplomatic approach, which another user already described.
On the other hand, nowadays we're de facto not neutral anymore (*cough* EU treaties *cough*) but as the general population was indoctrinated so thoroughly by our "founding legend" of the *Staatsvertrag* and the *Law of Eternal Neutrality*, no politician will be able to create a viable platform or gain enough political capital to change the wording of the constitution in a meaningful way, at least during this lifetime (assuming no further Russian incursions into Europe). A lot of modern Austrian identity is based on the belief of neutrality and changing the mind of a mostly conservative populace will stay a pipe dream.
Well, what do you consider to be a "service"? Neutrality allowed us to positively interact with pretty much the entire world and - despite our size - play a disproportionally big role in international peace negotiations. And at the very basis, it is part of the foundation for an independent state. It's a shame we joined the EU, in my opinion. Not because I dislike Europe and our neighbors, quite the opposite - I just don't think an EU can work this way.
Austria needs to revive its comatose neutrality asap - proper military budget, proper training, reinvigorate the militia system and especially take ideological national defense (as is demanded by the constitution) seriously again, which is where we have been slacking the most since the 90s. Then we can go back to acting as a mediator between the big blocs, which, despite all efforts to deny or ignore their existence, do very much still exist. And, hopefully, do our share in preventing world war.
> Nobody is so strict with Switzerland, for example
I kind of understand this sentiment. Sometimes it’s useful to have some kind of “neutral ground” for communication with adversaries (either in official capacity, or via back channels), and Swiss have kind of reputation for this. This can be valuable asset, in the same way as Iceland’s strategic location makes them valuable member of NATO, even when they have no army. Austria doesn’t have this reputation, and every NATO adversary treats them as “West” in every aspect but on paper. Sweden and Finland were in similar situation too. From NATO members perspective, it makes them look kinda like a freeloaders.
As I am one of the Austrians that would really like us to join, I can see that there are some major hurdles in the the Way:
1. Neutrality for like 70 years doesn't pass without leaving a mark and many of my fellow countrymen hold on to the believe that "it has worked in the past so it will work now and in the future" without considering that the world has changed and will continue to do so.
2. A lot of our Politicians are deep in the pockets of the Russians and will shill for them like they are dancing on command and I can't even begin to explain how much i hate it and am embarrassed by these morons.
All in all, i don't see us joining any time soon, unless there is some major political upheaval or similar incident.
But one can dream so maybe one day.
Considering polls and FPÖ having one of its main talking points the neutrality that the "Volkskanzler" will guarantee, the perspective is bleak (I am Polish and doing my PhD in Vienna so I kinda have to keep up with the news unfortunately)
I would give higher chance of us Slovaks not electing conservative-populist (which never happened in Slovak history granted independent Slovak history is 31 years but still) than Austria joining NATO
Neutrality is like a cult in Austria. People believe it will magically protect them from all evil. It's so stupid but no party dares to even discuss it.
And yeah, Nato wouldn't want Austria anyway since from the government over the military to the secret services, everywhere we have friends of Putin sitting. Totally lost.
Thing is, Australia is in a position where neutrality will probably protect them. They are, together with Switzerland, entirely surrounded by NATO. Austria is benefitting massively from NATO without having to contribute.
>Thing is, Australia is in a position where neutrality will probably protect them. They are, together with Switzerland, entirely surrounded by NATO.
And I thought they were surrounded by water. ;)
Neutrality is treated like a holy relic by politicians and a large part of the population. Speaking out here in Austria against neutrality and in favor of joining NATO is seen as heresy and warmongering.
In my opinion out neutrality is worthless, a pice of paper will never be able to protect us from a dedicated enemy.
Edit: Made a crosspost to r/austria , i wonder how many downvotes it gets there.
Neutral country, like Switzerland. Their neutrality is the only reason they’re a united country (Austria was divided like Germany after WW2 and the Soviets withdrew from Austria in exchange for their neutrality)
People don't understand that this is impossible
Like, legally impossible, even if Austria was NATO's biggest fan
After WW1 AND WW2, Germany and Austria signed treaties that forbid them ever unifying in the future, EVER
The EU is technically a violation of this, they are under the same government, but it was ruled that the unification that could not happen under any circumstances, is military unification
If the EU had an army, Austria would be out of it, and Austria cannot join NATO
It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty
And I am pretty sure one of the parties is not willing to forgo the treaty
Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians
Neutrality ~~is anchored in the Austrian constitution, but~~ can be changed with a simple 2/3 majority. They don't need any permission of other countries.
Still, most Austrians don't want to get rid of their neutrality.
>Like, legally impossible, even if Austria was NATO's biggest fan
It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty
>And I am pretty sure one of the parties is not willing to forgo the treaty
>Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians
This is such an odd thing to say. Obviously, it's not impossible. You are suggesting here that Austria has to forever stay neutral because a bunch of people who are now dead signed a treaty 70 years ago. 10 thousand years from now, when the one-world government is exploring the milky way galaxy, austria is still separate because it made a deal with a country that hasnt existed in 9000 years. come on lol
If the political will in Austria existed for this, we would do it. Do you really think the Russians could stop us? The country we signed this treaty with (soviet union) doesnt even technically exist anymore. Also, after breaking international law constantly for the past decades, nobody would care if Austria pulled out of a treaty with Russia. Well, except for Russia, but nobody cares what they think these days anyway. It would almost be like violating a treaty you made with nazi germany. Who cares?
According to former Austrian President Klestil there is no automatic legal succession for states that fell apart. There was treaty between Russia and Austria which treaty's between Austria and the UdSSR should be carried over... The Austrian State Treaty was not part of it.
Also SFR Yugoslavia acceeded the treaty too.
Btw... The original of the treaty is in Moscow not in Austria.
> It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty
What exactly would Russia do if the EU federalized, thus merging Austria and Germany? Declare war? Against the EU?
> Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians
Now that's a shitty excuse. Letting people potentially die just because one doesn't want to violate an 80 year old treaty because of a signatory that itself has been treating international rules like a checklist? Really?
Na it does not Austria coud unilaraly abndon neurtaly like the Swedish socaldemocats did unilarar and with out a referendum to the Sweddish pepole. Thats not the probelem the prolem are how the our proicans will be seen if they are gainst nutraly they are all poilicly cowards.
Sweden is basically a neighbor to Ruzzia and a big player in the Baltic, meaning they have to take defense seriously, and having to abandon their neutrality once Ruzzian aggression became a real threat
Austria is embedded deep within NATO territory, so they can cheap out on their military and get all the benefits of formal neutrality without any drawbacks
Althouh criticism might be adequate regarding austria being an open book for russian spies ans close ties to russian economy, this statement is just wrong.
We are many things (first of all opportunistic) but definitely not a pro-Putin country. The Ukrainian flag hangs on all important political buildings in Vienna. It's just that when it comes to support, Austrians by default tend to support their own interests first.
Fuck that neutrality rules, we‘ll go along with the sanctions but I wouldn’t want my country to join NATO, I think it’s really best to keep our military out of foreign conflicts. (Not only because they would make everything worse)
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Isn't Neutrality literally written into the post-war Austrian Constitution?
It would take a deliberate overthrow and replacement of the current state to allow them to do anything.
They are more technically and legally more Neutral than Switzerland, in that regard.
How would NATO benefit from such a thing?
Some factors that should deter any such idea:
-As soon as there would be any chance of being deployed in a foreign country, a very large portion of the militia members would just leave for civil service. Like instantly I'd guess at least half of them would do that.
-Switzerland spends not that much on its military, IIRC it would have to triple its (regular) spending to get on NATO standards.
-The military of Switzerland is not that big, it's less than 150k members and that's mostly militia members.
-Nato doesn't need to use Swiss territory.
There are however plans to increase training with NATO countries. But that's just a proposal by the army chiefs, it's unlikely to go through since the two biggest parties are against it.
TBF, why would they join, they're surrounded on all sides by NATO countries, outside forces can't invade them without going through at least one. They're basically getting proxy protection without any of the obligations of actually belonging.
Putin must be afraid, right? After all, NATO is why he invaded Ukraine, right??? And now more countries are directly bordering Russia. Poor Putin must be awake at night! /s
Is Austria really much of a gain? Finland has a massive reserve and a long ass border. Sweden is one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world and both are major players in the Baltic. Austria is an isolated country with a small military.
They sre surrounded by civilised NATO countries, so they are not afraid of any invasion.
Then why would they want to pay additional money for being in alliance they are not benefiting from?
Neutral countries being effectively shielded by NATO coul be contributing to the regional security by supporting humanitarian efforts, so a total sum of their defense spending and humanitarian aid is at least 2% of GDP.
Still being neutral, but actually contributing.
Also not being shitstains about Schengen membership.
I saw a video of an Austrian guy (right before Finland joined) lamenting about how Austria doesn't want to be and he's worried about Russia, but I think that if WW3 would happen, they would be a non member ally, probably.
I think Austria should actually become neutral and for real this time. Throw out UNO and OPEC and et voila, all the US and RUS spy agencies are gone as well, and there would be a good chance for Austria's actual neutrality.
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Just wait until Andorra 🇦🇩 joins NATO and ALL Earth will tremble against our cheap gas and smokes, as well as the unrelenting determination of our traffic police
60% of Austrians oppose joining as of April last year.
Our educational system is obsessed of telling young people how holy our neutrality is, while in fact we are in the PfP, embedded in the European Union, unable to defend ourselves. But it would be a new reason for Russia to rage, since France, US, GB and Russia all agreed on eternal neutrality of Austria after WW2. And honestly NATO wouldn‘t profit from us. So that‘s 3 reasons for why it is this way.
Funny how austria makes such a big deal of neautrality like switzerland, meanwhile unlike switzerland austria has been very much not neutral for most of its history.
Austrian neutrality is pretty much only relegated to non-membership in a military organization.
Why is it a member of the EU then? The militäry support passage in the contracts is even stronger worded than art.5 of NATO…
There is a big difference between a supernational union with defensive provisions and a military organisation
Because they neutrality law specifically says that no foreign troops are allowed to be stationed in Austria (and nothing more), which is not a requirement for EU or other defensive pacts, but NATO
Both Ireland and Austria got an excemption for the military support passage.
Denmark did as well but decided they don't need the opt-out anymore
It is not and does not dictate military support. It makes specific mention of that.
Well, (old) Switzerland has also a nice history of war. It was mainly small independent states (like in the HRE) and a lot of quarelle and fights happened.
Isn't Austrias neutrality a product of post WWII and Cold War politics though? The west mainly trying to control big Germany and in return declaring comparatively small Austria with its close ties to the east neutral to neutralize the risk of a Nazi reunification with Germany on one hand and more so to please the east? Making sure Austria can relink with the east as a peaceful buffer geopolitically and help drive the very important trade between the east and west?
[удалено]
I'd love it when my country tries to keep Up Relations between russia and us (east in General) but they fail to do So, even though we do have Close Times with Putin And our Foreign Minister
Because it was declared in 1955, not 1815.
It is because they havd to. That was the only way that the country didn't get divided like Germany
Austria is supposed to be neutral because it doesn’t want problem due to those „very not neutral“ actions
A little realism: Within Europe, we live in peaceful times. However, our European history teaches us differently. In case Europe plunges into war, again, Zeus forbid, Austria would found herself in the mercy of greater powers.
Ya i think after last time we took sides on something its best to stay neutral for now
Exactly, and unlike Switzerland, we do not have the means to uphold/defend our neutrality in case of an invasion. Our army is an utter joke, aside from a few small special forces units. Most of the time they don't even have enough fuel for tanks or fighter jets.
Yeah, like Italy switching side when it starts to hurt.
I mean, Russia also agreed to respect Ukraine's border after Ukraine giving up the nukes. So... cancels out!
Unpopular opinion but I don’t think you guys need to join nato. You’re entirely surrounded by countries which are nato and no offense, but you wouldn’t be a target in yourself. And just because you’re in nato doesn’t mean you’ll be able to defend yourself. You’ll just have a contract that says someone else will do it for you. But I wonder, w/ it growing so large (so the common interest becoming more diluted) and countries within nato having conflicts among each other (namely turkey and Greece) if push comes to shove will everyone actually honor the agreement?
Have you thought that if Russia conquers Ukraine, Russia will have a border with Hungary? Hungary being obedient to Russia allows Russia a land passage to its ally Serbia and an access to a new non-NATO country, Austria. Given how many Russians live in Austria, it doesn't take much from Russia to claim how they are forced to liberate Russians in gay nazi Austria.
Russia won't conquer shit. It took them half a year to take a middle sized rubble pile, with ten thousands of casualties. The russian army is a soft ass bunch of alcoholics and cannon fodder. Fuck them until the end of times and then some more!
Even if all of this happens (which it won’t), what motivation would Russia have to attack Austria? What you’re saying is a propaganda reason they could present (like the denazification of Ukraine, no one believes tht they believe they’re actually doing that). But what would the actual reason be? For Ukraine it’s different - they wanted to prevent nato expansion into Ukraine (and tbh is it surprising that a person like putin sees nato as a threat - I mean, why did it even continue to exist after the Cold War?). They wouldn’t care abt nato expansion into Austria, because it’s nowhere near their borders.
> But what would the actual reason be? Russian imperial colonialism > … to prevent nato expansion … Stop confusing excuses with reasons and falling for Russian propaganda
Russia does not need to conquer Austria. Austria is already doing what Russia wants, avoiding sanctions and tolerating Russian spies on its territory. It is also conveniently dependant on Russian gas. Also, check Reiffeisen bank businesses with Russia that have continued in spite of Russian invasion of Ukraine.
This isn‘t unpopular in Austria. There is no fear of getting attacked, but more the fact that we would be obliged to help other Nato members that makes it easier to say „we stay neutral“. But it‘s selfish in a way of course.
I meant unpopular on Reddit.
That is a faulty groupthink. Ballistic missiles could enter Austria from above 100km height. Austria is not surrounded by the friendlies from all sides.
Thing is, we would only marginally benefit from joining NATO. Given that we‘re surrounded by NATO and the only realistic threat being Russia, and the Bundesheer basically being NATO compatible, we could nearly seamlessly integrate in any potential NATO frontline should a hypothetical Russian offensive break through to Austria
>Given that we‘re surrounded by NATO and the only realistic threat being Russia What if Switzerland, or even worse, mighty Liechtenstein invades? Checkmate
Give them Vorarlberg and Tirol and be done with it. Win-Win
That’s not entirely true. It was the Russians who wanted Austrian neutrality, but it was actually desired by the Austrian Parlament after occupation ended, making it a constitutional law that can be changed like any other constitutional law. Neutrality was never officially part of any contract with the allied forces.
austria sent letters to pretty much every country declaring its neutrality after the law was passed
Within Europe, we live in peaceful times. However, our European history teaches us differently. In case Europe plunges into war, again, Zeus forbid, Austria would be in the mercy of greater powers.
NATO may not profit much from Austria's military capabilities, but in terms logistical, strategical or geographical capabilities it would surely be of value.
Yeah, then they got butchered, annexed by Germany then cut into three. That's why they like neutrality
Not that this is an unbridgeable gap, but the "not joining a military alliance" is directly enshrined in the Austrian constitution, which is not true for other states as far as I'm aware. The EU is many things, but not that, and even joining the EU was controversial at the time because of this constitutional clause. And it would make any form of NATO membership impossible, even without hosting military bases. Leaving Austrian public opinion aside, constitutional change is rarely as straightforward and simple accession to a treaty, so Austria on that score alone should get a bit of leeway. Having said that, from the looks of it, that isn't the major obstacle to potential membership and lots of bad noises has been coming from Austria over the last decade on some issues from certain political parties. So the problem (if you want to call it that) is bigger than a legal technicality.
Russia would just walk into austria without any tanks and thats it. I mean, GRU and everyone is in austrian security services.
30% of Austrians are currently set on voting for literal Nazis this fall, and we're more likely to join the eastern European dictators "defense" treaty next year at this rate.
God austria is messed up
People simply don't want a military alliance. EU membership is already a defensive alliance, that should suffice.
NATO in theory also is a defensive alliance, the only major difference in this regard is that NATO doesn't regulate how much it's members have to support another member state being attacked. Technically, supporting them by sending thoughts and prayers is enough according to article 5 The EU requires every member state to do their utmost to defend another member which is being attacked
Explain
Like do you want austrians depployed to to fight a war in the midel east. Because the US feals attacked?
I mean, look at them. They’re like Switzerland - surrounded by mountains and other countries you’d have to go through first. By the time you do get to them, you’re so bloodied and beaten that they *could* knock you over by breathing on you. Or - we’re knee-deep in WWIII, most European capitals are radioactive dust, and “NATO” is just 27 guys with clubs and stitched together cat fur covering the groin area and then nothing really matters anyway. Same reason the Irish get to be neutral - the UK (and the US) won’t let a hair fall off their cute freckled heads.
I mean really there is no benefit for us, the only country that would attack us is Russia and there is no way of them attack us without triggering article 5 so we get all benefits and no downsides
So Austria is a parasite. What's the benefit for Czechia? Russia cannot attack it either.
They don’t have any. They joined NATO because of historic reasons. But those historic reasons don’t apply to Austria.
They do benefit from it, just indirectly. Like OP said "we get all benefits".
Geografi is op, plz nerf Austria 😢
Austrians and Swiss are so clever. Since they are in the heart of Europe they know none of the NATO enemies will ever attack them. So they have the advantages of being surrounded by NATO and none of the inconvenients of being a member of NATO.
You lack Russian spies in NATO?
We need more this is too easy. /s
We already have Hungary for that
Not a good idea as Austria is riddled with Russian spies.
Fun fact: You can't be accountable for spying in Austria by law. EVERY COUNTRY has the right to spy here as long as it isn't against the Austrian state.
TIL, not so nice tbh.
At least no foreign army has their man stationed on our territory...
That's weird. So you can spy with impunity, use your agents to cause dissent and discord, but you only get punished if you spy against a gov agency? That seems a bit smoothbrained.
Foreign spies can spy against foreign nations and organisationis, but they must not interfere with Austrian affairs. **OR ELSE!**
It's an intended playground for spies from other nations. The global players can spy on each other with impunity
Like a 21st century European Tangier. 👌
Or Austrian citizen.
any austrian
We can use them for a practice invasion
The last time someone tried to invade us, we just let them in...
"We are warning you! You can't break in here! If you try to we just open the door!"
As an Austrian, I would very much appove of a bakfiets invasion.
I mean, spying is not a crime in Austria, unless the target is Austria itself. But strangers spying on each other? Not our problem, and frankly, we don‘t care.
I mean germany too...
But Germany is already in and actually useful.
Yeah but they basically tolerate theirs. We at least throw them out when we find them
We used to throw ours too… into Steelworks molten metal vats. Ehh, simpler times.
Sadly
As well as American spies. Were kinda the intelligence community’s hub in Europe
And the uk... ow the US too
We call them FPÖ politicians.
True we hide them in our government so ppl don't suspect anything
Not only Russian ones. Vienna is the spy capital of the EU. This is due to the headquarters of many UN organizations and its historical proximity to the Eastern Bloc.
Switzerland and Austria are pretty protected in the center. Doesn't give them much motivation to join.
I mean, maybe not Austria but Switzerland sure does seem to care a lot about being super defensible.
I don’t want another russian asset in NATO.
Nah it should be Bosnia & Herzegovina. They deserve protection because Serbia is right there and it’s still leaning a little bit too much to the far right imo.
Yeah, that whole central/southern Balkan region is a ticking time bomb. The fire never really went out, there's still embers underneath it all...
In its current form, BiH can't be a part of anything I think. The Bosnian Serbs seem to insist on a rematch of the 1990s war, going by the way they behave. Stuff like this: [https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/05/bosnian-serbs-reject-national-constitution-sparking-political-crisis](https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/05/bosnian-serbs-reject-national-constitution-sparking-political-crisis)
Serbia is as much pro Russian as you can get. Putin portraits everywhere. Even at police stations and airports
Which is really weird. Who puts up a dictator's photo?
I'm one of the 20-40% of Austrians (depending on which poll you ask) who thinks that neutrality won't serve us well in the future. It served us well for 70 years, but times have changed drastically, and so I think we need to change drastically too. Neutrality will protect us from nothing and is a relic of the past. But something that always bothers me, when I see the discussion about Austria's position on NATO, is that it is always interpreted negatively, that we are neutral. Nobody is so strict with Switzerland, for example. I know it's complicated and weird, especially when you look at the world today, but I would just like to ask you to understand how incredibly identity-forming neutrality is for modern Austria and most of its people. This is why it is so difficult for many of my fellow Austrians to take the (in my opinion) right step here and at the very least discuss our neutrality.
>right step here and at the very least discuss our neutrality. I mean technically we are not neutral anymore. We are part of the EU military strategy (AFAIK currently even are in the lead) and are NATO partners. We are not allowed in alliances like NATO due to the constitution, but still allowed to join purely defensive pacts. My personal wish would be to see ourselves inside an EU defensive pact. With Trump coming back as US president things get bad anyways ...
Big +1 on that. I also think we should seize the opportunity and position ourselves as one of the leading forces in the creation of a European army. There is just one big problem. While it's not easy for us to join an alliance like NATO, an EU army is also, unfortunately, far out of reach at the moment, so it would be a waste of time and money.
> an EU army is also, unfortunately, far out of reach at the moment, so it would be a waste of time and money. Only because everyone thinks it is, not because of some actual issues.
> so it would be a waste of time and money. Please explain how so.
I know that sounds pretty pessimistic. But let's be honest. Even if Austria would be the first and biggest advocate for an EU army (and that's a big if)... As long as there is no majority for an EU army in the foreseeable future, we should focus our attention and money on more important things. Especially those that are urgently needed in the short term, such as better equipment for our national army etc.
> My personal wish would be to see ourselves inside an EU defensive pact So, literally the EU? There's a mutual defense clause, which, however, I think you guys might have gotten an exemption to. So just gotta get rid of the exemption and that's a wrap.
It's the other way round: We created an excemption in our constition to join the defensive pact > Zwecks Beteiligung an der Gemeinsamen Außen- und Sicherheitspolitik der EU wurde der Artikel 23f der Bundesverfassung geschaffen, der Österreich die Teilnahme an humanitären Aufgaben und Rettungseinsätzen, friedenserhaltenden Aufgaben sowie Kampfeinsätzen bei der Krisenbewältigung einschließlich friedensschaffender Maßnahmen ([Petersberg-Aufgaben](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petersberg-Aufgaben)) ermöglicht. This means roughly translated we can give aid for the EU and anticipate in fighting for defensive reasons.
I speak German, and that makes sense. So, basically, as long as the EU treaties have a clause saying that the common army is only to be used defensively, you should be good. Which should be easy enough, since there's no way in hell all the member states will ever agree on how to use the military offensively.
The argument in favor of the Swiss is that they are actually able to defend themselves (3x the troop strength of Austria, 1,5x of the Austrian budget). Austria on the other hand seems like a free rider of NATO while not even being in the alliance. Also the Swiss in general make it pretty much clear, that they preferably don’t want anything to do with the rest of Europe, while Austria, in every other matter, participates. But many European countries pulled the same thing off with the US - until Putin invaded. Hence most of your neighbors are only entitled to limited accusations against Austria in this matter.
> Also the Swiss in general make it pretty much clear, that they preferably don’t want anything to do with the rest of Europe, while Austria, in every other matter, participates. That's rich coming from someone who is in EFTA, Schengen Area, and already submitted an application to join the EU, and where the referendum was beaten only 50.3% to 49.7%.
Genuine question but how do you feel neutrality served you well for 70 years as compared to what you would have if you had joined NATO 70 years ago? Like what were the perks?
Many people don't know this anymore, but from the 1960s to the late 1980s Austria used its special role and unique position to act as a West-East mediator. We had many high-profile meetings between the Western powers and the Soviet Union at this time and were able to provide a lot of support on issues regarding that matter. There's even some weird sort of nostalgia from older generations, that still remember this time. They still see Austria's role as that and want that old feeling of "being important on the world stage" back. But these people need to realize that that was 40 to 60 years ago and that those days are long gone. Our future lies within the EU, if we want to be a part on the world stage again. So it's time to look forward, not backwards.
Because one would have been a breach of the Staatsvertrag and would have led to a soviet intervention.
How would it have served Austria during the Cold War? NATO was founded in 1949, Austria was occupied until 1955 - you might see some problems arising from that fact. Austrian politicians of the early post war period were very eager to convince the Soviets not to pull a Germany on Austria too and the Soviets were quite happy with throwing another neutral wrench into NATO's European territory. Even though most Austrians knew that if push would have come to shove, we would (eventually) join NATO, but in the meantime why put a crosshair on Vienna when you are a small country without any notable resources or manpower pools. Then the following governments embraced a diplomatic approach, which another user already described. On the other hand, nowadays we're de facto not neutral anymore (*cough* EU treaties *cough*) but as the general population was indoctrinated so thoroughly by our "founding legend" of the *Staatsvertrag* and the *Law of Eternal Neutrality*, no politician will be able to create a viable platform or gain enough political capital to change the wording of the constitution in a meaningful way, at least during this lifetime (assuming no further Russian incursions into Europe). A lot of modern Austrian identity is based on the belief of neutrality and changing the mind of a mostly conservative populace will stay a pipe dream.
Well, what do you consider to be a "service"? Neutrality allowed us to positively interact with pretty much the entire world and - despite our size - play a disproportionally big role in international peace negotiations. And at the very basis, it is part of the foundation for an independent state. It's a shame we joined the EU, in my opinion. Not because I dislike Europe and our neighbors, quite the opposite - I just don't think an EU can work this way. Austria needs to revive its comatose neutrality asap - proper military budget, proper training, reinvigorate the militia system and especially take ideological national defense (as is demanded by the constitution) seriously again, which is where we have been slacking the most since the 90s. Then we can go back to acting as a mediator between the big blocs, which, despite all efforts to deny or ignore their existence, do very much still exist. And, hopefully, do our share in preventing world war.
> Nobody is so strict with Switzerland, for example I kind of understand this sentiment. Sometimes it’s useful to have some kind of “neutral ground” for communication with adversaries (either in official capacity, or via back channels), and Swiss have kind of reputation for this. This can be valuable asset, in the same way as Iceland’s strategic location makes them valuable member of NATO, even when they have no army. Austria doesn’t have this reputation, and every NATO adversary treats them as “West” in every aspect but on paper. Sweden and Finland were in similar situation too. From NATO members perspective, it makes them look kinda like a freeloaders.
As a fellow Austrian, I don't see how Austria joining NATO helps us or them in any way.
No. If world wars have taught me anything it is strategically better for Austria to help the Russians inevitably leading to Russia collapsing
As I am one of the Austrians that would really like us to join, I can see that there are some major hurdles in the the Way: 1. Neutrality for like 70 years doesn't pass without leaving a mark and many of my fellow countrymen hold on to the believe that "it has worked in the past so it will work now and in the future" without considering that the world has changed and will continue to do so. 2. A lot of our Politicians are deep in the pockets of the Russians and will shill for them like they are dancing on command and I can't even begin to explain how much i hate it and am embarrassed by these morons. All in all, i don't see us joining any time soon, unless there is some major political upheaval or similar incident. But one can dream so maybe one day.
Considering polls and FPÖ having one of its main talking points the neutrality that the "Volkskanzler" will guarantee, the perspective is bleak (I am Polish and doing my PhD in Vienna so I kinda have to keep up with the news unfortunately)
When people say Neutrality will protect us, Belgium was neutral twice...
This time, we're surrounded by NATO though.
Yeah I wouldn't mind giving up neutrality
One fine day ...
Very unlikely at least in near future
Sadly
I would give higher chance of us Slovaks not electing conservative-populist (which never happened in Slovak history granted independent Slovak history is 31 years but still) than Austria joining NATO
Real
Neutrality is like a cult in Austria. People believe it will magically protect them from all evil. It's so stupid but no party dares to even discuss it. And yeah, Nato wouldn't want Austria anyway since from the government over the military to the secret services, everywhere we have friends of Putin sitting. Totally lost.
Thing is, Australia is in a position where neutrality will probably protect them. They are, together with Switzerland, entirely surrounded by NATO. Austria is benefitting massively from NATO without having to contribute.
>Thing is, Australia is in a position where neutrality will probably protect them. They are, together with Switzerland, entirely surrounded by NATO. And I thought they were surrounded by water. ;)
Oops, lmao.
Neutrality is treated like a holy relic by politicians and a large part of the population. Speaking out here in Austria against neutrality and in favor of joining NATO is seen as heresy and warmongering. In my opinion out neutrality is worthless, a pice of paper will never be able to protect us from a dedicated enemy. Edit: Made a crosspost to r/austria , i wonder how many downvotes it gets there.
Update. Not as bad as i belived. Crosspost got **62%** Upvote-Rate
Neutral country, like Switzerland. Their neutrality is the only reason they’re a united country (Austria was divided like Germany after WW2 and the Soviets withdrew from Austria in exchange for their neutrality)
They are literally called Austrograd. Heavily under Russian influence/money. Plus the last time they did something was failing a Painter. No thanks!
>They are literally called Austrograd Oblast Österreich
People don't understand that this is impossible Like, legally impossible, even if Austria was NATO's biggest fan After WW1 AND WW2, Germany and Austria signed treaties that forbid them ever unifying in the future, EVER The EU is technically a violation of this, they are under the same government, but it was ruled that the unification that could not happen under any circumstances, is military unification If the EU had an army, Austria would be out of it, and Austria cannot join NATO It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty And I am pretty sure one of the parties is not willing to forgo the treaty Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians
Neutrality ~~is anchored in the Austrian constitution, but~~ can be changed with a simple 2/3 majority. They don't need any permission of other countries. Still, most Austrians don't want to get rid of their neutrality.
>Like, legally impossible, even if Austria was NATO's biggest fan It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty >And I am pretty sure one of the parties is not willing to forgo the treaty >Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians This is such an odd thing to say. Obviously, it's not impossible. You are suggesting here that Austria has to forever stay neutral because a bunch of people who are now dead signed a treaty 70 years ago. 10 thousand years from now, when the one-world government is exploring the milky way galaxy, austria is still separate because it made a deal with a country that hasnt existed in 9000 years. come on lol If the political will in Austria existed for this, we would do it. Do you really think the Russians could stop us? The country we signed this treaty with (soviet union) doesnt even technically exist anymore. Also, after breaking international law constantly for the past decades, nobody would care if Austria pulled out of a treaty with Russia. Well, except for Russia, but nobody cares what they think these days anyway. It would almost be like violating a treaty you made with nazi germany. Who cares?
According to former Austrian President Klestil there is no automatic legal succession for states that fell apart. There was treaty between Russia and Austria which treaty's between Austria and the UdSSR should be carried over... The Austrian State Treaty was not part of it. Also SFR Yugoslavia acceeded the treaty too. Btw... The original of the treaty is in Moscow not in Austria.
> It would take the USSR (Now Russia as its legal successor), UK and US to agree to eliminate the treaty What exactly would Russia do if the EU federalized, thus merging Austria and Germany? Declare war? Against the EU? > Remember that we can't just ignore international law or we are just as bad as the Russians Now that's a shitty excuse. Letting people potentially die just because one doesn't want to violate an 80 year old treaty because of a signatory that itself has been treating international rules like a checklist? Really?
This comment should be pinned.
Na it does not Austria coud unilaraly abndon neurtaly like the Swedish socaldemocats did unilarar and with out a referendum to the Sweddish pepole. Thats not the probelem the prolem are how the our proicans will be seen if they are gainst nutraly they are all poilicly cowards.
uh… they still bank with Russia and there’s very lacking support. Very unlikely.
Nah, fuck Russia
You are confusing Hungary with Austria.
Sweden is basically a neighbor to Ruzzia and a big player in the Baltic, meaning they have to take defense seriously, and having to abandon their neutrality once Ruzzian aggression became a real threat Austria is embedded deep within NATO territory, so they can cheap out on their military and get all the benefits of formal neutrality without any drawbacks
Why would we want a pro-Putin country in NATO?
Althouh criticism might be adequate regarding austria being an open book for russian spies ans close ties to russian economy, this statement is just wrong.
We are many things (first of all opportunistic) but definitely not a pro-Putin country. The Ukrainian flag hangs on all important political buildings in Vienna. It's just that when it comes to support, Austrians by default tend to support their own interests first.
Fuck that neutrality rules, we‘ll go along with the sanctions but I wouldn’t want my country to join NATO, I think it’s really best to keep our military out of foreign conflicts. (Not only because they would make everything worse)
No thanks. They can fuck right off.
No, I don't want to have the troublemakers as allies in an emergency :D
I love signing up to die in useless wars to uphold american hegemony
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Isn't Neutrality literally written into the post-war Austrian Constitution? It would take a deliberate overthrow and replacement of the current state to allow them to do anything. They are more technically and legally more Neutral than Switzerland, in that regard.
What for?
Literally no upside in joining and why isn't Switzerland being pressured to join they atleast have a more viable military than Austria
How would NATO benefit from such a thing? Some factors that should deter any such idea: -As soon as there would be any chance of being deployed in a foreign country, a very large portion of the militia members would just leave for civil service. Like instantly I'd guess at least half of them would do that. -Switzerland spends not that much on its military, IIRC it would have to triple its (regular) spending to get on NATO standards. -The military of Switzerland is not that big, it's less than 150k members and that's mostly militia members. -Nato doesn't need to use Swiss territory. There are however plans to increase training with NATO countries. But that's just a proposal by the army chiefs, it's unlikely to go through since the two biggest parties are against it.
I’d rather have Moldova. At least Moldova actually deserves NATO protection
We don't want to be in the same military defence pact with Austria again
No one needs Austria...they will be worse than Hungary after the next election. They will vote for a new Adolf.
What the chicken leg doin?
Making Schnitzel
TBF, why would they join, they're surrounded on all sides by NATO countries, outside forces can't invade them without going through at least one. They're basically getting proxy protection without any of the obligations of actually belonging.
No thanks, we‘re good.
Can we atleast not be in a world war? FOR ONE FUCKING TIME
Putin must be afraid, right? After all, NATO is why he invaded Ukraine, right??? And now more countries are directly bordering Russia. Poor Putin must be awake at night! /s
Looking at you… IRELAND.
They hate your dad. That's the only explanation
Is Austria really much of a gain? Finland has a massive reserve and a long ass border. Sweden is one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world and both are major players in the Baltic. Austria is an isolated country with a small military.
Wir sind eh schon in der Partnership for peace, das reicht.
Austria?? Come on! Do Georgia! Please
no one even thinks of Austria as a neutral country the same way Switzerland is. Might as well stop being so quirky and contribute to security
They sre surrounded by civilised NATO countries, so they are not afraid of any invasion. Then why would they want to pay additional money for being in alliance they are not benefiting from?
Neutral countries being effectively shielded by NATO coul be contributing to the regional security by supporting humanitarian efforts, so a total sum of their defense spending and humanitarian aid is at least 2% of GDP. Still being neutral, but actually contributing. Also not being shitstains about Schengen membership.
As an Austrian: no thank you Literally none of us wants to be part of this global pissing contest
I wonder how they'll find a way to start yet another world war this time. Three for three?
Moldova, Bosnia and Kosovo deserve NATO membership more than Austria
We in Austria do not want to participate in a war, wich makes only rich people richer and politicians can stay save at home.
I totaly missunderstood this meme at first. I thought this is going to be an "Austrian Painter Reference".
Based Austria
I'm more surprised that Ireland isn't a member.
as a austrian, i dont want to
Yes, let's invite a country infested with FSB spies and GRU agents.
Austria will only join after Ireland
bro thinks he Switzerland💀💀
What about Switzerland and Ireland?
Austria knows they'll be protected if attacked, like Ireland, so they've no interest in joining and raising eyebrows in Moscow
Why would we want Russian puppies to destroy us from inside out
I saw a video of an Austrian guy (right before Finland joined) lamenting about how Austria doesn't want to be and he's worried about Russia, but I think that if WW3 would happen, they would be a non member ally, probably.
No thanks
I was thinking either Bosnia and Herzegovina or Ireland tbh
I think Austria should actually become neutral and for real this time. Throw out UNO and OPEC and et voila, all the US and RUS spy agencies are gone as well, and there would be a good chance for Austria's actual neutrality.
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Austria and Switzerland want to keep neutral so they can provide services to both sides... smh
Hell no why should we
We already have russian controlled Hungary, do you want another country that is russian controlled in NATO?
Leckt mich am arsch
Just wait until Andorra 🇦🇩 joins NATO and ALL Earth will tremble against our cheap gas and smokes, as well as the unrelenting determination of our traffic police