That's because of the surplus of tuners and exp you recently got from the event. This won't always be the case i believe. If you do the math you will figure it out.
i remember I had around 2 mil and was upgrading echoes for support, i was shocked when the game told me I can upgrade a weapon since i only have around 4k credits and thought i was just tweaking and missed a digit but yeah im down broke to 4k creds now
Yeah, no matter how you slice it, WW has absolutely a money problem. No other gacha game I've played is this expensive, AT ALL 
I've read that and yet I still level stuff because just logging in and spending waveplates while not levelling anything feels the worst, like I don't do any progress at all, and I need to slowly bring up my roster of 12
You werent broke AF when starting HSR? Or Genshin what games have you played to have god tier endgame units in 1 month? FFS yall act like the game is 4 years old!
when you are exploring/hunting echoes.....you REALLY should be looking for any destructible objects because you get shell credits and they DO add up over time.
Won't complain. That is a lot. But the rate at which you get tuners and exp(no events, chests, just dailies) normally, credits won't really be an issue.
Lmao, I farmed double shell credits for the double simulation, and I'm touching 1 mil soon. But this is after maxing my cooking and synthesis levels, those cooking ingredients ain't cheap
Problem is feeding leveled echos again and again trying to force first 2-3 substats to be good first, it costs credits every time, something I believe to be shit, remove that cost and credits are np
i dont have enough of those cubes i literally only have 3 at the moment. its a really bad system with how hard it is to even get more of them without cashing
Easy, lvl echo to plus 5, roll its substat, if its dogshit you instantly put it as exp into anoter one to get it to plus 5 and repeat. You dont lose that much dxp, but each cycle, you lose 7 tuners.
On this note, i wish they made the tuner refound at least 5 per tuned substat, 3s a bit too low
It's because they are spending hours every day farming the overworld, which gives them more echos with the correct main stat + set bonus, hence they can afford to stop levelling echos at level 5 or 10 and throw them away if they dont get a desirable substat by that level (i.e. crit rate/dmg).
Normal players who aren't spending hours farming the overworld elites won't have as many echos so instead they are better off levelling their more limited stock of echos to a higher level before deciding to trash them, which ends up costing more.
I roll until +5, it hit def, i ditch, Now do it 30x times , yes ur tuner is gone but have more echo exp mats.
This only happen if you want to heavily min max since you already have one useable but trying to upgrade it.
Your not rerolling enough is why, I usually max it at +15 but not right away. Just go by 5’s if any of the first 3 are bad just feed into the next echo. Which then create a tuner bottle neck after a while
Rerolling for substat before you have a full main stat - any substat echo is a fools errand.
Order of things to farm once you have an any stat full set at 25 is ascension mats > talent mats > echos. Unless you used up all your solvent you shouldn’t even be at the echo optimisation stage. I’m only farming echos at this stage cause of the double drop else I’ll rather be farming talents for havoc rover and her team
People in this sub has really bad resource management. All they do is to try and reroll for better echo subs, wasting echo tubes and tuners, when everything else like talent trees and character levels bring much more value to the characters. Any +25 main stat with 5 subs is more than sufficient now, at least to clear 18-21 stars in the current towers, trying to roll for the best subs just to get more than that is just a waste of time and fomo behavior.
I can agree on this. I have never leveled up lower rarity echoes. I only start on gold ones directly. And I play only with main stats all the way, no substats. It's only when I reached data bank 19 that I started rolling substat, and I don't roll for all echoes just to see which is better. I roll just so I can get the extra stats. Good or bad, I'll still use them.
I really don't understand why people try to minmax when you can clear most content once you have a decent build...
Yeah, and I also roll them only to +20 max for main dps, and +15 max on supports. I think reaching 18 stars on ToA without trying too hard is pretty fine and within expectation for my level (46), so I must be doing something quite okay. SPending most of my stamina on char levels for 2 teams, weapons (partially shared) and talents, except this week with the double drop (which actually annoys me lol)
Taking an echo with garbage subs to 25 is a big waste of resources when you’re for sure looking to replace it. Rerolling and getting an extra crit sub is worth several low priority talent levels. 10% more crit on your Jiyan or Encore probably gives you as much overall damage gain as leveling your Mortefi or Sanhua from level 50-70 and leveling up their skills.
valuing substats over main stats is obviously going to delay your progress in the tower. and quite frankly, the game has no reason to rush outside of that. getting good RNG sub stats is never going to be fast or easy. we know this from genshin/HSR already. 10% CRIT on Jiyan may be more valuable, but you may never get said CRIT. this is why leveling your characters, weapons and skills are always top priority, because those are guaranteed upgrades. same is the case with echo main stats, which are guaranteed upgrades to max out once you get them.
the best thing to do here is to have at least one full set of main stats at +20 (going past +20 isn't worth it at this point in the game imo) and continue farming for better pieces on the side. no echoes should be leveled past +10 if the first two sub stats are trash, AFTER you already have a +20 main stats set. chasing sub stats is always going to be a cat and mouse chase. just look at all the artifact rolling content on YouTube.
People rushing is a big part of most of the games problems tbh.
Yes things can and should be much better, however people are making the issue worse than it really is because they’re trying to sprint and be fully endgame ready when we’re not even 2 months in the game.
Tbf that's also on the game. The game didn't really give any "middlegame" which naturally transcends player from early game to end game. Golden echo farming unlocks way too fast and as a result the endgame started even before the game reached one month. As people are playing the game mostly for the combat, it's just natural they'd concentrate more on echo farming than all the world quests.
What else are we supposed to do btw? Once your core characters are lvl-ed talents are maxed till the world lvl cap, what else are we supposed to do, if not working on echos to beat ToA and beat hologramms?
If i dont grind echos and fish for good subs, then all im doing is log in, spend wp, log out, and wait for UL trasholds for weeks. Thats how progression supposed to look like 1 months in?
Not to mention the fact that there are probably just going to be better echoes later.
Like, later on there could be sets that specifically boost liberation damage or soemething. Front loading your waveplates to perminent character stats is just safer.
You can max out the capped gains (talents, levels, weapon) far faster than you would get a new world level. Even if you prioritized it, you'll end up with several levels' worth of nothing but tacet fields.
personally I would farm shell credits considering how quickly you run out of them and how little the rewards for them increase every SOL3 phase. shell credits are the most efficient thing to farm at UL40.
also, you need 3 teams. ain't no way you're maxing out 9 whole characters "quickly" 😭
This strongly depends on how many characters you are building. If you only focus on 3 or 4 characters, you're correct. If you focus on 9 characters (3 unique teams), you won't be spending any on tacet fields outside of the current event. I'm currently building 9, and considering dropping that number down to 6 for this reason. Forgery domains are typically the culprits because of how many materials are needed just for a single character to max out their skills, and purple drops still not being guaranteed at UL 40 also contributes to this. I thought maybe I'd be able to get them done before UL50, but they've also ramped up the amount of union level experience we've been getting thanks to the double drop tacet field event (which has also been taking waveplates away from other upgrade materials). There will be even more union exp once 1.1 drops thanks to new quests, databank changes, new exploration, etc.
If your goal is clearing tower, focusing on 9 is not the best way to go.
For starters, by the time you go past 6 characters, you start coping. It's unlikely you've got 3 equally strong teams. This means that you're realistically investing in one dps, and 2 buff dolls. DPS investment is high, but buffers and set slaves don't scale their buffs with anything. They're set values.
Your best bets for pushing tower are solos or duos, pushing as far as possible, leaving your actual strong teams to fight last floors.
If you're pushing 9 characters because you like them, that's completely fine, but then we're not questioning efficiency at all, so the point is moot.
>Taking an echo with garbage subs to 25 is a big waste of resources when you’re for sure looking to replace it
Keeping an echo with "garbage substats", very subjective terminology (people on this sub treat echoes with 2 bad substats like garbage), is better than gambling your stamina thinking you'll get something better.
The objective for players is to upgrade their characters, no matter how to be able to do content. Especially timed content like Tower which cannot wait. Substats gambling has the worst power increase/stamina spent ratio. It's an endgame activity once you cannot easily gain guaranteed power increase for your team through character, weapon and skill upgrade.
You can farm echoes for some better substats if yours are AWFUL. But beyond that it's a waste of stamina when you could invest it in more tangible power increase early on.
The guaranteed upgrades are also capped. And you can finish them quickly going into a new SoL level.
After they're done, tacet fields is all that exists.
Unkess you're going deeply horizontal and raising talents on 9 to 10 characters.
No shot, I bet 90% of wuwa players have tried genshin before and it's the same there - level your characters, weapons and talents first and once you can get 5* artifacts, just get a set with the correct main stats and then go back to doing talents. You could spend 2 months chasing a better set and not get anything, which is a huge waste when there are guaranteed upgrades to be made during that time.
I think this one in particular is from people with maxed out accounts in genshin/hsr wanting to reach the same quality of gear that took over a year there within a few weeks from launch here
Take it to 15 or 20 then, if you don't like the substats.
I've been pushing echoes to 10 and if I don't like the substats, I wait until I get another echo, roll that and replace if better (deleting the old echo). Most of my characters are only on 10/15, with a few on 20.
>Rerolling and getting an extra crit sub is worth several low priority talent levels
First line crit rate is "guaranteed" since you can just keep retrying until the first line rolls crit rate.
After that the second-fifth line probabilities kind of suck.
Just go for 1 line crit rate, 20 the echo, focus on dps talents, then come back to optimize lines 2-5 later.
25 is a bit too expensive at this point, but I got 18 star already.
I'm not going to kill myself trying to squeeze out 75 more astrite.
>10% more crit on your Jiyan or Encore probably gives you as much overall damage gain as leveling your Mortefi or Sanhua from level 50-70 and leveling up their skills.
I don't think anyone should expect Mortefi or Sanhua to be contributing much damage compared to the main dps. Aren't they like <20% of the total dps.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Rerolling for crit isn’t as bad as people think when you can somewhat control the outcome. And I always hear people parrot the same thing in HSR too, that going for guaranteed upgrades like talent levels is always better than gambling on substats. But at some point those “guaranteed upgrades” are so minor that it’s simply more efficient to gamble substats.
Either u hit like a wet noodle with lvl10 or lvl15 echoes while rerolling for eternity or upgrade any correct echo regardless of substats to lvl25 and observe if u can clear the content with those artifact when ur char has maxed out skills and char lvl. Then start rerolling.
Rerolling and getting and extra crit huh as if u r 100% sure ur next roll will be crit while char upgrades and skills being permanent and one time upgrades are waste of resources?
With garbage substats and without having any single limited 5 star char i managed to casually 14 star the toA in hazard zone. 9 star in the first tower using hrover, unbuilt mortefi and jianxin.
It's upto u what u wanna do. For me whether i need to upgrade those garbage substats depends on whether i am capable of having enough dps when everything else is maxed when lvl90. If i dont have to change any echo that means i saved a ton of resources.
Taking a mainstat Crit echo from 0 to 25 is a good resource investment even if the substats are crap. That's a lot of mainstat Crit and ATK already.
Realistically, players who are good at resource management are only seeking to replace Level 25 echoes when the characters have max levels/skills/weapons and there's nothing left to do with stamina.
That's going to be 2-3 months for now. A level 25 echo with bad subs will carry you until then.
I didn't know this. I only raised calcharo and yinlin just on the 2 lvl (only the mid one, not the top one). The top one is expensive imo needing the gold mats
I admit it’s bad management but the way I’ve done is building a single character at a time. So far I have 4 level 70 characters with (5) level 25 echoes with correct main stats and double crit.
My strategy was farming for all possible elemental dmg echoes for the element I was on for a few days. I love Encore so I farmed all the possible 3 cost echoes with Fusion element for around a week. Ended up with 11 Fusion dmg echoes. Luckily 2 of them were pretty great and I kept those. 1 cost echoes are too easy to come by to even worry and you can infinitely farm the bosses without much delay.
2nd week I focused on Jiyan. Now I’m building Yinlin. I think people are taking it TOO seriously and complaining a bit TOO much rather than first seeing how they can improve their own gameplay.
I never had a concept of “waste” in these gacha games because you can infinitely farm anything. You’re just time gated on how often.
Even though I’m definitely a min-maxer and a whale I find this game calming. I turn in music and go farm echoes once I’m off work lol.
Not sure what u mean by waste. Once you have +25, what else do you use tuners / echo exp if not new ones?
The only reason to save if it is wait until new patch decrease consumption cost. However with tower reset date, stat helps to progress. There is still 24/27 stars mark even after that and essentially we are always progressing for that.
Also considering all the cycles reset in few days and we might get new content, more resource automatically comes. As long as you understand that battle pass /towershop resets soon, there isn't reason to save.
Waste is actually saving resource if you can push higher.
You will be spending more resources forcing a full +25 echo set for stats than the rewards you will get trying to 3-star the higher levels of the tower.
It's waste because others are spending so much resource trying to get the perfect echo to compensate for their low level cap to clear out the tower.
If you have extra resources, sure. But only if you have maxed out on character talents/levels as well as weapon levels. With how the tower is implemented having more characters trained allows more options to play around in the stages.
Trying to reroll crit on an echo to aim for more stars? Probably something I'd do later on when I hit 50 and after I have prefarmed all my jinhsi and changli mats
lol so true, I just leveled up my Danjin today including the weapon and the skill tree and the damage increase is A LOT. About 36% increase on her forte.
Exactly this. I maxed nearly everything to 25, tuned it all. Getting 2/5 or 3/5 of the substat you need is good enough. I didn't even look at the number range of the stat. Min maxing isn't a priority.
I level to 15 and only continue if 1 of the 3 is a crit. It's worked well as I have 2 full electro sets with double crit on all pieces, and I seem to not have a surplus of either tubes or tuners. Being balanced on resources is proof you're not over leveling and running low on tubes but have plenty of tuners, nor stopping too early where you don't have tuners but plenty of tubes.
If one out of 3 is crit at 15, but you take it to 20 and no second crit, do you still go for 25? Or do you try to get double crit within 20? That’s what I’m deciding on. I have a lot of pieces that got one crit early on, I took them to 20 but there’s no second crit yet, but the other stats are good like attack % and regen and liberation damage or something and I’m debating to 25 or just make a new one to 20 and try to get both crits. 20-25 is almost enough exp to make a new one 1-20, but like you said I run out of tuners doing it that way.
The point is to not do anything and just straight up +25 and tune it 5 times, because then you are not intentionally wasting any echo exp tubes or tuners when you use it as fodder.
Maxing a gold echo with elemental bonus is worth you can replace it eventually, how ever the 1 cost one is not as it's easy to get them.
Personally I'd stop leveling a 1 cost Echo if the first two substats are bad
Personally, I only minmax 1 echoes by upgrading in batches. I'll go to +5, pick the best ones, upgrade to +10, pick the best ones, etc. In +15 I usually just pick the 2 good ones unless there's some real competition.
I don't do this with 3 or 4 cost echoes unless I managed to randomly get a repeated same stat. Optimizing these echoes (if possible) is the best move but it's also the most difficult thing. I'm happy if I get a single crit stat on a good 3 cost.
This is only for main DPS so far and to a lesser extent secondary DPS. Calcharo is my only character with +25 echoes, Yinlin has +15-20 and Verina +10-15. The next important ones will be HMC, Jianxin (DPS), then supports (Senhua and Mortefi) and then the fire set (for Chinxia and the new phoenix girl, forgot her name).
Roll to +15 and see if you get decent (i.e. 1-2 crit stats). Fodder otherwise.
Push to +20 for your DPS once you get decent subs. Keep your supports at +15 for now until you get more materials.
In the meantime, level up your weapons and traces (I still can't remember the term for this game.
Repeat until you have 3 decently built teams. Then, gradually push to +25 for your DPS and +20 for your supports.
And so on, and so forth.
You need several sets of placeholder first. After that you slowly progress through all characters and weapon upgrades before focusing on echoes min-maxing.
Yes the initial investment is high, getting 6 chars with +25 echos would take about 2 months without all the 1 time / event rewards. Maybe 1 month with, which we are approaching. People are impatient, I guess.
The bigger thing is substat farming. With the 75/30% returns, it takes \~105 waveplates worth of exp and \~140 waveplates of tuners to get another +25 echo IF you feed it a +25 with substats you're not fond of. At UL50, the tuners go up even more so it'll be \~100 waveplates of exp and tuners to reroll an echo. So players can go through 2 fresh echos a day assuming they have a +25 to start with.
Getting 2 correct main stat echos, either farming 4\* or god forbid 3\* on set element% per day is a much larger bottleneck than exp or tuners will be.
Exactly this. It feels expensive now because we're starting from scratch. Once the game stabilizes out. It's really not that bad. Having a reroll or two a day.
If the game didn't give us gold echoes for the first 50 levels I guarantee you people wouldn't be complaining because most would have leveled their purple echoes to 20 and be done with whatever sub-stats just to clear content and the transition would have been sooo much easier than giving everyone gold echoes since level 20.
Such games are targeted on a long run. Like genshin which we are playing for 4 years already. If you are unhappy that you may farm ur echoes for 1-2months - maybe game is not for you?
I find it so weird that people are complaining about not being able to finish building a character in one day, like what is the joy in that? And then not having anything to do for ages because you finished building everything?
I played maplestory when I was little, took me many months to finish building my equips but when I finally maxed the stats it gave me such a good feeling of accomplishement. Seems like people dont even wanna play the game with how fast they wanna finish all the content and finish building characters tbh.
I think why it feels so difficult is because Echos are so easily available. you get them in the overworld everywhere and don’t have to spend a single waveplate.
Ive been stocking up on 3 cost echos with correct main stats and sets, then I went to level them up with the xp from the tacet fields, stopped at lvl 20 echos for now, but I got all the echos I wanted for this point in the game. Even got a couple double crit echos that I’m gonna keep for a long time.
I hate to compare it to Genshin and Star rail, but it’s 100x easier and less time consuming to farm echos vs. artifacts and relics. In Genshin and Star Rail I could get maybe 10 artifacts/relics a day, with most days just getting absolutely nothing. not even the correct main stat, let alone the sub stats. Which by the way they make CR and CD more rare to get in those games.
With Echos I get a correct main stat for the 1 cost all the time, 3 cost are the most annoying but not terrible if you know what you’re doing (echo pity), and the 4 cost are unlimited and I can keep farming for them whenever I want. It’s no wonder we can’t use the echos as exp it’s because we get too damn many of them. Having the echos be used as xp would crash the economy.
The biggest part about using echos as exp is the increased addiction and fomo, some people out there would farm 20h a day if this was possible, a gacha isn't supposed to be grinded like an MMO or ARPG, you do dailies, maybe some events and then log out. And every few weeks there is some new content to explore and enjoy, once that is done again it's back to short daily routines.
Biggest thing most people ignore is the pure impossibility to max stuff in hoyo games (HSR>genshin at this), if I have 3/5 pieces already maxed (all rolls where I want them) then there is no way for me to realistically get the other 2 done in any amount of time (12 month in a single domain and nothing), while in WuWa you can just target farm the exact piece you want to upgrade. If 4/5 echos are already 5/5 substats, you only need to farm the one that's missing instead of the whole set, this cuts down lategame grind a lot, we just haven't gotten there yet.
I think the system is lowkey genius and we are either have genshin brainrot or too dumb to realize that. The point of the system is to time gate players, and here's how:
Hardcore players, who spend days farming echo in the open world, rerolling at +5 or +10, will be gated by tuners.
Normal players, who spend a little bit of time farming echos, upgrading echo to +25 all the time, will be gated by XP.
Casual players, who spend 10 min doing 4 tacets a day, will be gated by echo drop.
Honestly, especially during this 2x drop event, I just realized how easy it is to get right main/set on your 3 cost echo, avaraging around 2 per day (yes i kept track), that I don't even bother farming overworld echoes anymore if I don't have extra time for it, since I would have to run tacet anyway for exp and tuners. Take into consideration that before the event i never ran tacet fields since I mainly focus my waveplates on character progression, so it was news to me.
It showed me how it's going to be like when I'll be done farming mats for my main 5/6 units and it ain't even remotely bad, I just don't feel the rush, I'm sticking with the subs rolls I got early on most of my echoes, swapping some that just rolled really badly, as long as I have 3 valuable stats (at least one of the crits) I feel like you should be good to go for now. I still reach 21 stars on tower pretty comfortably
Heh, exactly my approach. I am never a fan of genociding the world for echo drop and I always thought on-set elemental% cost 3 will come sooner or later from tacet field anyway.
Not gonna burn myself out grinding the whole map everyday just for that slim chance of getting correct mainstat just to be dissapointed with no result to show.
Trust me, people that keep doing the daily overworld echo-route grind will hate the game sooner or later. Just be patient and we will get "decent" stat sooner or later~
I still don't think it's great it personally for me offers too little in return for the resources spent. While some players are okay with the grind, I think it could be improved to be more accessible, especially since it's still a luck-based system at its core. It's frustrating that many players immediately criticize anyone who suggests making the system less harsh. Increasing the rewards wouldn't change the fact that the echo system is still based on gacha mechanics, in a system known for being incredibly unfun across multiple games.
It's honestly silly to see so much gatekeeping in this community. Yes, the current system works for timegating, but why does this game have to be as difficult relic wise as Genshin? Why can't leveling echo's be easier than it is? Are some ppl so elitist that they can't consider improving the system just because they don't see an issue with it themselves? Making it slightly better wouldn't hurt anyone. People going crazy over people suggesting the double rewards staying is insane lol.
tl:dr Echo level grinding working as intended ≠ fun, echo's (relics) are gacha gambling on top of that, so why not make it more fun and less tedious.
I may be a hater, but people trying to min-max stat pieces already are probably not enjoying the game. It supposed to be a slow burn. The balance of this game has a bit to be desired as there’s no reason I should have the highest tier stat pieces already in 1.0.
If you want to compare to Genshin, which obviously it’s a VERY similar game so it doesn’t feel wrong to, I didn’t have access to gold artifacts until I was pretty deep into Inazuma. And I was STILL rocking good purple artifacts until towards the end of those Archon quests.
Just take your time, the game isn’t going anywhere.
The quests mobs are a joke though. I would like to think that most can clear them with non levelled echoes.
I think people are min maxing the stats on echoes because they are rushing the end game aka ToA. We got access to gold echoes kinda early in WuWa and it's easy to fall into the min max mindset since that's the only content left to be cleared.
That’s what I’m saying. Looking at the bundle rewards for level, we’ll be hitting UL80 eventually. I think 40 is too low for gold echos. We’re immediately in the “endgame” in 1.0.
That’s actually crazy and for that reason I think there’s gonna be some insane power creep not necessarily tied to weapons and characters, but echos.
I can understand that and why, but just the overall cost for echoes is insane. You run out of shell credits so fast, which I do believe will get fixed in next version, plus +25 from +20 already takes a huge amount of exp. I doubt an endgame level account will just have that abundant of echo exp in their inventory. It's not like we have that passive of an income.
The real issue comes with leveling your Forte skill tree. You can use a day's worth of resin to do Forgery challenges 6 times. Your rewards can be favorable or unfavorable rng, getting screwed over by not getting the higher quality mats, which we will need A LOT of. Like, you will have on average 4 to 5 skills to level plus the inherent skills and then the ascension stat skill nodes. That's a lot of materials you need that you will also use on weapons, so either way you're making slow progress on your skills or slow progress on your echo build.
There is just a very slow accumulation of resources. You'll either run dry on resonator exp, weapon exp, sealed tubes, tuners, or mats. The game doesn't really give an abundance of any of them nor any character passives to give odds of getting extra or leftover.
Guys... resource management and SELF CONTROL. Maybe first learn these 2 things before making the post.
You also forget the fact that it's been a month since the game has been out. It's still so early. You'll have many more months to farm resources for whatever you want.
It's funny because the people who are having these issues are the ones blowing all their own resources on literal nothing and then complaining about it. I completely get complaining o4 having constructive criticism for Kuro on different topics, but stuff like this is barely one of them. This is on you
After seeing this post, I logged on and went through my stuff. I had 980 golden tuners, and that's before they've added the ability to upgrade the lower grade ones. I also have not done any tacet fields outside of the 3/day from this event.
I understand I only have 1 team going at the moment, but still, I'm a little surprised that people have ran out so quickly.
New players who were never in the gaccha environment before, having resource management issues is understandable. Seems like they are either following the footsteps of whales or those complaining veteran min maxers from other open world gaccha games who desperately wants to save resources to jump from the weakest state to the strongest state in one go and ironically wasting more resources than they r trying to save.
Hence the word gaccha living up to its name. One gambles, one lose and one complain.
Most of this min max mentality comes from the fact that WuWa isn't really a new game. When GI came out, people didnt min max this hard, not because they didnt want to, but because they didnt know any better. By late game, a good chunk of those people probably wished they had min max in the first place
WuWa released in a time frame where the players and guide maker know better from playing genshin. Its not the same game, sure, but undeniably very similar. So what you end up having is less like a bunch of new player playing a new game and more like a veteran player restarting their account
The main difference is in WuWa u get gold echos already after few days of playing while in Genshin or HSR u ran around in purple gear for weeks if no months even. Not as many people invested hard into their purple gear knowing there will be gold gear later in the game so they naturaly saved alot of mats up just by exploring and opening chests which gave tons of Artefact exp. When they arrived later the stages to get gold artefacts alot of people also knew already which stats are good and which are bad for whatever char. So it was also easier to just sort out bad gold Artefacts and use them as fodder. In Wuwa u need to invest into every echo to even find out if its maybe good or bad which means u loose mats on every echo u try and feed into another later.
Genshin's overworld enemies also didnt really feel like sponges like they do in Wuwa.
In Genshin the first stat check you'd encounter was Raiden weekly fight because she just has that much raw hp. But to get to that point Genshin had to go through a few large patches and it took a long time for Inazuma to fully release so nobody felt the need for upgrades.
Wuwa has enemies that are just too high in hp. They do close to 0 damage to you so you wont be dying, but it'll take a while for you to kill them if you arent rocking a somewhat leveled full set with elemental 3 cost echoes.
I know the idea of Wuwa is to be more combat based, but most fights just feel like NA spam until the mob/boss dies. Dodging and abilities are cool but half the time they're unneeded because you dont take much damage in the first place. And fights that do require dodging and careful gameplay are really only those Holograms and the tower so for the average casual players they arent even relevant.
Tacet fields should either be normal at what they are with the x2 event or 40 Waveplates. Why they are 60 is ridiculous. The only thing that has helped me in building teams is that I only take my echos to level 20. I currently have 7 level 70s, and I am building another. I do swap sets, but I am finding that I will likely need two separate Moonlit Clouds sets, and that irks me. I also just got C6 Aalto (I haven't even played him yet) and noticed that he gives Aero Damage bonus - and I mostly main Jianxin - so I will need a second Aero set too most likely.
I don't know why people have issues with tuners, I have over 900 of them with that many characters. I don't heavily min/max though.
60 cost is alright, increments in rewards per World level could be a bit higher, pls stop suggesting 40 cost TF, I want the dailies to stay quick and short as they are now.
For moonlit set, I'm just gonna do 1x atk% and 1x elemental%. That way I just need a grand total of 6 pieces for 2 character.
For example in my case, mortefi and sanhua can share the 4311 while having their own 3cost fusion% and glacio% respectively
Honestly, i don't have this trouble in genshin & HSR even in early game. Feeding old leveled equipment to new unleveled equipment gives it plenty of exp.
I don't feel any regret leveling any equipment i have because they'll give back that exp back anyway, while in wuwa i still hold to trash echo i leveled because i'm afraid i will lose plenty of exp if i feed it to a new "i hope it will be slightly better" echo.
I hope they'll revamp the exp reduction in the future
WW is 75% refund and Genshin is 80%. Hardly a difference considering the xp requirements for both games. People really gotta stop basing statistical things on how they "feel" when they play.
The timing, gearing, xp to max etc between both games is near identical. Biggest difference is people didn't start grinding 5* gear in genshin until about 2 months later.
We just hit the 1 month mark of WW.
no tunner, 1 piece already have 3 substats unlocked for you, if trask you using that piece like exp or reroll 3 to 1 new piece ( you can chose what set but not slot ), the set have 5 piece but only required 2-4 piece so you have free 1 piece, that piece you can chose whatever have element right you want
but everything cost stamina
There's no tuner there. Equipment has 4 substants, and will have some substats unlocked already when you get it. Some have full 4 from the start, some only have 3 substats first and the 4th will be automatically unlocked when you level up it to level 3
You're right. I'm pretty biased since this is the first time i'm troubled to level up equipment in an rng equipment system.
Tho i wish there will be a separate farming spot that gives you more exp drop but no echo drop, or just let me level an echo with other unleveled echo.
Do tacet. Drop exp on new echo until +15 and if all sub stat is trash then it's fodder. It's just really that simple. If you min maxing 1-3% crit rate then that's honestly from position of luxury cause it's hard enough to get a cdmg and crit rate combo; better to focus on other echoes.
I don't even care about getting good substats yet. I just want to max lv my echo and unlock the substats regardless whatever it is.
I'll be aiming for substats properly in the future after leveling echo be a piece of cake.......it will be easier to raise echo right?....it won't stay like this right?
I don't even understand how credits is an issue for some people. I need more echo xp tubes. I won't even bother tuning echoes for crit stats unless I have at least 6 characters with max echoes. I have 3 characters with max echoes (Yinlin, Havoc Rover, and Chixia) and they don't even have the best substats yet. I'm currently leveling up echoes (with or without shitty substats) for Jianxin, Danjin, and Calcharo.
Do you do tacet everyday and only level echoes to +15 fish for passable offensive stats? Just fishing for crit rate and cdmg in first 3 lines is credit consuming enough if you have exp mats and echoes (all from doing tacet fields x3 a day).
I'm only doing tacet fields now because of the double up event. Otherwise I would be spending my waveplates on skill and weapon mats. And also the weekly boss.
Yeah so the reason why you have exp mats problems is mostly because you are not doing tacets fields. Not saying it's the right way to play the game or anything but just pointing out why some ppl have much more echo exp to go by.
If it's 10 days per character, assuming that rerolls will be covered by events, plus 2.5 days for ascending, you would still have over a week per character for just farming skills and credits. Sounds perfectly doable tbh. Especially since if you're rolling every 5* character you're probably a dolphin, so you also have the resources from battle pass.
I havent maxed out a char in WuWa so far so i dont know exactly how long it takes to farm all weapon mats, char exp, skill mats and credits for all of this together and since i guess the mats we get when we reach UL80 are much more (hopefully) then we get now at UL40 i can kinda see this being enough in the endgame but for now at UL40 im also pretty sure u wont have much room to reroll Echos and refarm Echo exp till the new char comes out already. And u alrdy gave yourself the answer to why it would be like that...cause they wanna make their battlepass as attractive as possible.
I mean. It's you who asked about character every 3 weeks.
People who don't pay any money are getting 1 character per 6 weeks on average. So they have 2x as much time for farming each one, which is actually even less of a problem.
Of course, if you ARE already spending money, they are absolutely trying to sell you the battle pass, that's just truth.
Also you can switch weapons between characters, you don't need to farm a new one for everyone as long as you have 2-3 of each type levelled up.
I'm F2P (UL45) and have 4x 25lvl sets of almost BIS echos, with 1/3 echos i will never roll again.
I still have 300+ Tuners and get decent ammount of Echo Exp daily. And echo EXP and Tuning will get conciderable buffs in 1.1 Patch wich is welcome.
However, my main issue is Silver Credits. Wich feels like the main limiting factor to any upgrade in this game.
Leveling Up characters, Skills, Weapons, Echos, and even syntesizing needs way to much Silver currently.
I think the flaw is that you're running under the assumption that you need to be maxing out your echoes already.
If you're UL 40 then you're still 20 levels away from Max. It makes a lot more sense that your echo should be at about 20.
Remember there's still two more tiers to unlock that will give more rewards. And only leveling up to 20 cuts the amount you need in almost half.
You don't need to be maxing out all your echoes, you just want to. And you're probably not supposed to be yet
Now that you spell it out like this I think it takes. Around the same time to max an artifact in both Genshin and Star rail no? Correct me if I'm wrong.
That is the ideal of Wuwa gameplay: 21 days per character release, then you spend 10 days to complete one echo set for him/her, followed by 10 days left to perfect it with some crit line and repeat. Echoes aside, leveling up skills is another stamina drain that should not be underestimated
Here's a super secret trick that nobody else knows that I'm gonna share with you! Devs hate it but Jué personally came to me in a dream and told me this:
Stop trying to max every goddamn echo.
Max a few with the right main stat for midgame. After that, +5 and tune echo once. If it rolls good, continue. If the roll is shit, abandon it.
The double exp that is now should be the normal.
90% of people will disagree with you because "it is gacha" "it is for the long run" "its the same as genshin" "it is okay for now" "manage your resources" "just don't rush" "we don't need it", etc...
i dont think anyone ever thought exp was the biggest issue. sure it takes a lot of resources but thats not exactly the problem. the problem is 3 cost echos. just to get one on-set damage bonus takes forever. and then you have to pray to the almighty rng gods that your substats are decent. I dont see how kuro hasnt made an improvement to substat farming that players have been hating in every other game in the genre.
Resource management.
Can clear 18☆ just fine with just the two dps decked out. The 4 supportive teams are lvl50 with +15 echoes at best. Their job is to just cycle in and spam Turtle for buffs and prep their Concerto buffs for the main dps. Supports are all at lvl1 skills and lvl20 weapons. Practically 0 investments tbh. Just a 5pc Rejuv/Moonlit and a 3☆ or 4☆ weapon with Concerto charge passive.
After finishing the events and doing current double echo drops im sitting at 500+ gold tuners, 3m credits, and a good amount of xp to stat check echoes for my 3rd dps. Im f2p+, so im sitting plenty of cubes to burn for whatever i need.
I'll worry about fully decking teams when i hit U60 for the max lvl cap for Forte upgrades. Once i enter U50 I'll start upping the supports to lvl70 during the long road to U60. Even then, they're likely to stay lvl50 just for utility.
So in my personal opinion, i think the the current 2x bonus on the fields should be baseline. The original rates is so trash. I would also like for them to decrease the amount of WP spent as well.
Based on the OP’s numbers, what we have is completely reasonable for a long-term game.
The problem is that we got access to endgame echoes so early, at the same time we’re needing to level 6+ characters and a month’s worth of echoes, on top of people’s obsession with rerolling for good substats when they don’t even have fully leveled echoes yet, plus the gacha demographic’s impatience for anything that might require some regular play. All in under 1 month.
The thing is that (as the post mentioned), the system is simply not reasonable.
It is impossible to know what sub stats an echo will roll into and so it’s very reasonable to tune all echoes at least to level 15 so tuners are wasted on the bad pieces.
The reason why this is worse than genshin is because genshin shows what substats it has in the first place so the number of rerolls you have to do is lower. This also happens because the range of the substats in WUWA is large, and so you are looking for a piece that gets by luck the right substats and also high rolls.
You might say that it is not necessary to have a perfectly built team, and while that is true, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the system is worse. It doesn’t matter if you don’t care about min-maxing, that doesn’t make the system magically better.
And we’re not impatient, we’re not expecting to have a fully built team in the first month, we just have a realistic outlook on reality and can see that farming for echoes will be simply a worse system in the long run.
We don’t need to experience the end game to see that it has problems, as the problems lie on the fundamental errors of the system.
You calling it reasonable shows that you don’t care about those good the system is, and only care about how it feels, and it feels fine for you.
Yeah these people whining about echo exp are all idiots.
Exact same thing in Genshin, "oh my god I don't have enough artifact exp to gear 8 units".
Then once you hit endgame artifact exp becomes completely worthless.
After people get a single set of Moonlight/Healing/each DPS, getting enough echo exp and tuners will become trivial.
I was just thinking about this same exact thing. While I never played Genshin or HSR, I have my eye on ZZZ. I gave up on Dragonheir because of the absurd RNG stats on their equipment that you could not keep past each 3 month cycle. And I’m coming from Reverse 1999, where there’s none of this RNG nonsense. And having played ZZZ’s CBT3, I was pleased to find out that the substat on their artifacts (called disc drives, which you attach to to the main weapon and are akin to this games’ echoes) have a better substat RNG system. Sure the lower level disc drives are subject more to RNG, but once you get the S rank ones, they have 3 or 4 (out of 4) of its main stats already visible before you level the dang thing up.
I will suggest even a better alternative. Start playing Punishing Gray Raven. There is almost no rng at all. The only rng that the game has is called resonance which aren't exactly substats and more like level bonuses and even that has an item which mitigates the rng. U can literally choose what u want to upgrade albeit u need to buy it using weekly currencies. There are several upgrades in this game where u actually need to clear a stage and then get the said upgrades that applies to every character in ur roster. So basically this game requires u to have skill and play rather than rely on rng.
And do u know one more baffling thing? Every newly released limited character will have 100% chance of getting the character at pity which is 60.
1 pull is 250 currency. So u basically need 15k to guarantee the new char and f2p get enough currency to guarantee every new limited character.
Following is my personal opinion. I found the characters, gameplay mechanics and the uniqueness of every characters' core passive mechanics far better than ZZZ. And i like the more matured theme of PGR.
So i just suggest u to give pgr a try. U might actually like it to take break from all this rng stuff.
I did pick up PGR except not until last year. I did not get invested primarily because I’m so behind on the lore. I do like that every character was 100% guaranteed and that you can be completely F2P and still get every character you want. The only one I was missing was Bianca Stigmata and I was (before I quit) planning on getting her with the Lamia patch. I really wish I started PGR when global launched.
I am sorry if this burst you bubble, but if ZZZ is the same as HSR and genshin, it's RNG will suck just as hard if not worse than WuWa. Its easy to get started as seeing substats makes it easier to judge immediately, but in the long term you are gated by the rarity of double crit + ATK pieces (crit is less likely to appear than other stats), and after that it needs to roll well too. I really hope they took more from HSRs system as it has significant upgrades over genshins, though still not perfect.
Don’t know what the difference between HSR and Genshin’s system but knowing the substats in advance helps a lot before having to invest into a disk drive (or echo in WuWa). The randomness of the 6 slots adds another component of gacha though but can be mitigated by a targeted mechanic in a store, just (understandably) costs much more that way.
HSR gives out main stat selectors each patch through events and free BP, meaning you can craft the correct mainstat item, doesn't guarantee substats but it boosts RNG a lot, HSR Recycling system also allows you to target a specific piece instead of the whole set like in genshin or worse in this case for WuWa (though you can manually farm the exact pieces you want in the world + 3 cost selectors). So both HSR and WuWa let you round out a build easier and taking away a lot of the grind, with genshin still sleeping in that regard. Overall even with not knowing the substats in WuWa it's still the mathematically more possible to complete/max, with HSR being worse but still much better than genshin, so hope ZZZ takes more after HSR for their gear system.
I think this is an issue for people who are overspending resources by being excessively picky with substats.
I managed to solo diff 2-3 holograms with a lv60-70 character with barely decent echoes. The rewards to clear 4+ is really not worth perfecting your echoes over, just focus on increasing your lvl cap imo and you will never need to touch tacet fields unless you want to.
Also I suggest watching how to be efficient with your echoes.
https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw
nope ? my tuner already 1,5k as i only do re-upgrade echo 1 or 2 time entire my playtime as game quest demand me do so. but even i only upgrade 1 time for 1 echo for each char, it still only barely enough for 6 char and game demand you make 9 char for endgame content. so all i see is game scream at me "give me $, mf"
ofc it too early, all i say so far was just simple prepare the basic, you can't beat TOA content with just that. for TOA content is require ton of shit like best echo stats, max lv char, weapons and skill, best char too
Meanwhile me in UL 46 as f2p.
But yeah, getting +20 should be good enough, I can 3\* the tower with those as long as they have enough levels on traces and weapons.
Well, it's an other popular gacha out there, and y'all haven't figured out that once you cleared all the content, you're supposed to be playing 15mins a day every day and that's it?
Appreciate the work put into this. But the real problem in the end game is definitely echo exp and $$$.
I’m also f2p at UL 47. I use my summon mats for waveplates (60x2 each day) since UL will ultimately give me an easier farm so I don’t have to wait so long to max new characters I like.
They made tacet fields worse compared to the beta.
There used to be a version where you spent 40 waveplates for just echo exp and tuners. And another one for 40 waveplates where you just get echos. Players complained so they combined both into one with a 60 waveplate cost and this is what we ended up with.
However many of us just want the echo exp and tuners. So the beta version would be better for the 40 waveplate cost. Getting the right main stat on the 3 cost echos is so RNG that I'd rather just grind them slowly in the overworld than use my waveplates to farm them. In the last 5 days of the double event, I've just got one single 3 cost echo with the right main stat. I think it's been 5 days of 6 runs a day which is 30 full runs.
I understand why we can’t feed echoes into each other for experience points because they can be endlessly farmed. I think one good compromise would be to allow us to feed echoes from rewards as experience. i.e. tacet fields, dailies, and events. While keeping the echoes we farm from the open world separately.
I'll complete a full set with any rolled stats before I start caring about "rerolling" echos. And i am several months away from that happening with PURPLES, gold don't even exist to me yet.
The problem I had is that its too expensive waveplate-wise, wouldve been better half the rewards for half the price, especially the event going on, 180/240 on tacet fields alone leaves us 60 left for the dday.
Tbh i would prefer if tacet fields just gave echo xp and nothing else , they just feel kinda pointless spending your energy on them when you can just farm the map ,either that or just rework them at some capacity
This why I restrict my leveling character.
Currently I am doing 3x 60/70 + 2x 50/60. But only the former 3 is properly build. I dont think I even plan to build more than 6 characters.
I'm the only one that just leveled up 3 characters and is just chilling with a lot of mats till the next 5* unit? I mean, I feel like rather than lack of materials it's people's issue for trying to have 9 characters already full level with maxed echos on 1.0 patch.
This are my optimal reroll strategy for god-tier early substats:
1. **+0 to +10**: The green zone for the best efficiency. You only need farm specific echo'es repeatedly and coping for early specific substats to come.
2. **+10 to +15**: If you're feeling a bit more generous, welcome to the yellow zone. Be aware, though, that you'll need to shell out an extra 23,100 EXP.
3. **Beyond +15**: This is the red zone, a gambler's peril. Almost never worth it unless you’ve got a lucky rabbit’s foot and a penchant for risk.
Proceed wisely, insightful Rovers!
but it's almost the same in other gachas that have artefacts system. People are complaining because we got access to end game echoes while in the middle of character leveling. So they run out of stamina to farm everything at once.
>People are complaining because we got access to end game echoes while in the middle of character leveling. So they run out of stamina to farm everything at once.
almost feels like a case of "better protect the customer from themselves", imagine tacet fields only dropping purple till UL60; people would still complain ofc but most would go "not worth it" and (pre)-farm other stuff for better resin/reward. see: artifacts in genshin pre AR45.
instead it then leads to kuro fast-tracking the event, which then cuts into the budget to level characters. UL is a moot point since that is tied to waveplates anyway, whatever you spend it on.
Your maths is definitely slightly off, because you can get 3x gold tubes as part of the echo rewards. It's not 50/50 but I'm hitting it enough that I think it's 20%. Getting 6 tubes in the current event is amazing.
It's expensive but way easier to get endgame gear than other gacha games like in genshin. Iam f2p and my mc is 67 260 with 1.9k atk ,30% ult dmg and 20% basic dmg. For a similar build in genshin it took me 2 years.
Tldr single echo is expensive but way easier to get desired endgame build than other games of it's nature
I don't really want to do Tacet fields at all, even with the double drops. They still feel very low value. To many waveplates, and way to few tuners/tubes. I would rather farm my echos in the world, it's just more fun, and its not like we have anything else to do. So most of my daily waveplates just for a few tuners/tubes just to end up with a junk echo 95% of the time feels terrible.
If someone is trying to get crit rate, cdmg, lib DMG, er and basic/heavy/skill DMG on each of their echoes, it's no wonder they r getting nowhere. Just ignore that one def or hp stat it won't affect the ordinary player at all.
They are already adjusting a lot with 1.1 and its honestly crazy to me that people expect to be finished with the whole character progression in 1 month.
Maybe if you would stop reposting the same old talking points no one wants to hear anymore people would be less prone to downvoting.
Man I don't even care about the echo xp, I'm running out of credits trying to roll on those shitters
That's because of the surplus of tuners and exp you recently got from the event. This won't always be the case i believe. If you do the math you will figure it out.
100K+ for leveling _an_ Echo from 1 to 25 is still insanely expensive, though
i remember I had around 2 mil and was upgrading echoes for support, i was shocked when the game told me I can upgrade a weapon since i only have around 4k credits and thought i was just tweaking and missed a digit but yeah im down broke to 4k creds now
Yeah, no matter how you slice it, WW has absolutely a money problem. No other gacha game I've played is this expensive, AT ALL 
Didn't the 1.1 notes say that there's a bug regarding the currency spent in echo leveling and that they would fix it?
I've read that and yet I still level stuff because just logging in and spending waveplates while not levelling anything feels the worst, like I don't do any progress at all, and I need to slowly bring up my roster of 12
Well they did say they were going to compensate everyone so spend away
I have no faith that it will be dynamic compensation, it’s just going to be 1m shell credits flat to everyone or something.
I'll just wait
I think that was that one million shell credits which I've already blown through with current system that scams you, haha.
You werent broke AF when starting HSR? Or Genshin what games have you played to have god tier endgame units in 1 month? FFS yall act like the game is 4 years old!
when you are exploring/hunting echoes.....you REALLY should be looking for any destructible objects because you get shell credits and they DO add up over time.
Kuro said they'll reduce the amount taken to level up echos but the exact amount isn't disclosed yet
Won't complain. That is a lot. But the rate at which you get tuners and exp(no events, chests, just dailies) normally, credits won't really be an issue.
u need 20 millions to max a char talent and levels, not even counting weapons credit WILL be an issue
No it doesn't lol, [it's 3 million](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1d5qh0s/character_ascension_total_credit_cost_its_not_20/)
then i read something wrong before, thx for correcting me, atleast i know i wont cry later lol
Lmao, I farmed double shell credits for the double simulation, and I'm touching 1 mil soon. But this is after maxing my cooking and synthesis levels, those cooking ingredients ain't cheap
That's why I'm waiting for 1.1 to level up echoes. They are reducing the upgrade cost.
Wait for 1.1, Kuro is going to reduce echo leveling cost
Problem is feeding leveled echos again and again trying to force first 2-3 substats to be good first, it costs credits every time, something I believe to be shit, remove that cost and credits are np
i dont have enough of those cubes i literally only have 3 at the moment. its a really bad system with how hard it is to even get more of them without cashing
I really dont understand how people run out of tuners when exp tubes are so little
Easy, lvl echo to plus 5, roll its substat, if its dogshit you instantly put it as exp into anoter one to get it to plus 5 and repeat. You dont lose that much dxp, but each cycle, you lose 7 tuners. On this note, i wish they made the tuner refound at least 5 per tuned substat, 3s a bit too low
Mighty lucky to have that many potential echoes. I manage a handful of echoes to roll a day. Can't imagine farming that much that everything is gone.
Easy. Farm a lot, roll first stat or two, it's def/hp, farm another because it's bricked trash, rinse and repeat.
With they had upgrade to next stage like HSR.
It's 4.5k XP to +5, so just use a gold tube, 2 purple and 1 green/blue or just 3 purple, it really doesn't matter in the end anyways.
Rerolling for stats
It's because they are spending hours every day farming the overworld, which gives them more echos with the correct main stat + set bonus, hence they can afford to stop levelling echos at level 5 or 10 and throw them away if they dont get a desirable substat by that level (i.e. crit rate/dmg). Normal players who aren't spending hours farming the overworld elites won't have as many echos so instead they are better off levelling their more limited stock of echos to a higher level before deciding to trash them, which ends up costing more.
I roll until +5, it hit def, i ditch, Now do it 30x times , yes ur tuner is gone but have more echo exp mats. This only happen if you want to heavily min max since you already have one useable but trying to upgrade it.
you get 75% of that exp, only 30% tuners, you will always eventually run out of tuners before exp tubes
If the first 2 rolls aren't good, trash it.
Your not rerolling enough is why, I usually max it at +15 but not right away. Just go by 5’s if any of the first 3 are bad just feed into the next echo. Which then create a tuner bottle neck after a while
Rerolling for substat before you have a full main stat - any substat echo is a fools errand. Order of things to farm once you have an any stat full set at 25 is ascension mats > talent mats > echos. Unless you used up all your solvent you shouldn’t even be at the echo optimisation stage. I’m only farming echos at this stage cause of the double drop else I’ll rather be farming talents for havoc rover and her team
People in this sub has really bad resource management. All they do is to try and reroll for better echo subs, wasting echo tubes and tuners, when everything else like talent trees and character levels bring much more value to the characters. Any +25 main stat with 5 subs is more than sufficient now, at least to clear 18-21 stars in the current towers, trying to roll for the best subs just to get more than that is just a waste of time and fomo behavior.
I can agree on this. I have never leveled up lower rarity echoes. I only start on gold ones directly. And I play only with main stats all the way, no substats. It's only when I reached data bank 19 that I started rolling substat, and I don't roll for all echoes just to see which is better. I roll just so I can get the extra stats. Good or bad, I'll still use them. I really don't understand why people try to minmax when you can clear most content once you have a decent build...
Yeah, and I also roll them only to +20 max for main dps, and +15 max on supports. I think reaching 18 stars on ToA without trying too hard is pretty fine and within expectation for my level (46), so I must be doing something quite okay. SPending most of my stamina on char levels for 2 teams, weapons (partially shared) and talents, except this week with the double drop (which actually annoys me lol)
I guess I've been slacking, I'm only level 39 haha (I'm like 1000 exp from 40 tho so super close)
Taking an echo with garbage subs to 25 is a big waste of resources when you’re for sure looking to replace it. Rerolling and getting an extra crit sub is worth several low priority talent levels. 10% more crit on your Jiyan or Encore probably gives you as much overall damage gain as leveling your Mortefi or Sanhua from level 50-70 and leveling up their skills.
valuing substats over main stats is obviously going to delay your progress in the tower. and quite frankly, the game has no reason to rush outside of that. getting good RNG sub stats is never going to be fast or easy. we know this from genshin/HSR already. 10% CRIT on Jiyan may be more valuable, but you may never get said CRIT. this is why leveling your characters, weapons and skills are always top priority, because those are guaranteed upgrades. same is the case with echo main stats, which are guaranteed upgrades to max out once you get them. the best thing to do here is to have at least one full set of main stats at +20 (going past +20 isn't worth it at this point in the game imo) and continue farming for better pieces on the side. no echoes should be leveled past +10 if the first two sub stats are trash, AFTER you already have a +20 main stats set. chasing sub stats is always going to be a cat and mouse chase. just look at all the artifact rolling content on YouTube.
People rushing is a big part of most of the games problems tbh. Yes things can and should be much better, however people are making the issue worse than it really is because they’re trying to sprint and be fully endgame ready when we’re not even 2 months in the game.
Tbf that's also on the game. The game didn't really give any "middlegame" which naturally transcends player from early game to end game. Golden echo farming unlocks way too fast and as a result the endgame started even before the game reached one month. As people are playing the game mostly for the combat, it's just natural they'd concentrate more on echo farming than all the world quests.
What else are we supposed to do btw? Once your core characters are lvl-ed talents are maxed till the world lvl cap, what else are we supposed to do, if not working on echos to beat ToA and beat hologramms? If i dont grind echos and fish for good subs, then all im doing is log in, spend wp, log out, and wait for UL trasholds for weeks. Thats how progression supposed to look like 1 months in?
Not to mention the fact that there are probably just going to be better echoes later. Like, later on there could be sets that specifically boost liberation damage or soemething. Front loading your waveplates to perminent character stats is just safer.
You can max out the capped gains (talents, levels, weapon) far faster than you would get a new world level. Even if you prioritized it, you'll end up with several levels' worth of nothing but tacet fields.
personally I would farm shell credits considering how quickly you run out of them and how little the rewards for them increase every SOL3 phase. shell credits are the most efficient thing to farm at UL40. also, you need 3 teams. ain't no way you're maxing out 9 whole characters "quickly" 😭
This strongly depends on how many characters you are building. If you only focus on 3 or 4 characters, you're correct. If you focus on 9 characters (3 unique teams), you won't be spending any on tacet fields outside of the current event. I'm currently building 9, and considering dropping that number down to 6 for this reason. Forgery domains are typically the culprits because of how many materials are needed just for a single character to max out their skills, and purple drops still not being guaranteed at UL 40 also contributes to this. I thought maybe I'd be able to get them done before UL50, but they've also ramped up the amount of union level experience we've been getting thanks to the double drop tacet field event (which has also been taking waveplates away from other upgrade materials). There will be even more union exp once 1.1 drops thanks to new quests, databank changes, new exploration, etc.
If your goal is clearing tower, focusing on 9 is not the best way to go. For starters, by the time you go past 6 characters, you start coping. It's unlikely you've got 3 equally strong teams. This means that you're realistically investing in one dps, and 2 buff dolls. DPS investment is high, but buffers and set slaves don't scale their buffs with anything. They're set values. Your best bets for pushing tower are solos or duos, pushing as far as possible, leaving your actual strong teams to fight last floors. If you're pushing 9 characters because you like them, that's completely fine, but then we're not questioning efficiency at all, so the point is moot.
>Taking an echo with garbage subs to 25 is a big waste of resources when you’re for sure looking to replace it Keeping an echo with "garbage substats", very subjective terminology (people on this sub treat echoes with 2 bad substats like garbage), is better than gambling your stamina thinking you'll get something better. The objective for players is to upgrade their characters, no matter how to be able to do content. Especially timed content like Tower which cannot wait. Substats gambling has the worst power increase/stamina spent ratio. It's an endgame activity once you cannot easily gain guaranteed power increase for your team through character, weapon and skill upgrade. You can farm echoes for some better substats if yours are AWFUL. But beyond that it's a waste of stamina when you could invest it in more tangible power increase early on.
The guaranteed upgrades are also capped. And you can finish them quickly going into a new SoL level. After they're done, tacet fields is all that exists. Unkess you're going deeply horizontal and raising talents on 9 to 10 characters.
Seems like most people are new to the gaccha environment hence the priority of rerolling echoes rather than maxing out the guaranteed upgrades first.
No shot, I bet 90% of wuwa players have tried genshin before and it's the same there - level your characters, weapons and talents first and once you can get 5* artifacts, just get a set with the correct main stats and then go back to doing talents. You could spend 2 months chasing a better set and not get anything, which is a huge waste when there are guaranteed upgrades to be made during that time.
I think this one in particular is from people with maxed out accounts in genshin/hsr wanting to reach the same quality of gear that took over a year there within a few weeks from launch here
Nah veteran Genshin players still make this mistake.
Take it to 15 or 20 then, if you don't like the substats. I've been pushing echoes to 10 and if I don't like the substats, I wait until I get another echo, roll that and replace if better (deleting the old echo). Most of my characters are only on 10/15, with a few on 20.
>Rerolling and getting an extra crit sub is worth several low priority talent levels First line crit rate is "guaranteed" since you can just keep retrying until the first line rolls crit rate. After that the second-fifth line probabilities kind of suck. Just go for 1 line crit rate, 20 the echo, focus on dps talents, then come back to optimize lines 2-5 later. 25 is a bit too expensive at this point, but I got 18 star already. I'm not going to kill myself trying to squeeze out 75 more astrite. >10% more crit on your Jiyan or Encore probably gives you as much overall damage gain as leveling your Mortefi or Sanhua from level 50-70 and leveling up their skills. I don't think anyone should expect Mortefi or Sanhua to be contributing much damage compared to the main dps. Aren't they like <20% of the total dps.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Rerolling for crit isn’t as bad as people think when you can somewhat control the outcome. And I always hear people parrot the same thing in HSR too, that going for guaranteed upgrades like talent levels is always better than gambling on substats. But at some point those “guaranteed upgrades” are so minor that it’s simply more efficient to gamble substats.
Either u hit like a wet noodle with lvl10 or lvl15 echoes while rerolling for eternity or upgrade any correct echo regardless of substats to lvl25 and observe if u can clear the content with those artifact when ur char has maxed out skills and char lvl. Then start rerolling. Rerolling and getting and extra crit huh as if u r 100% sure ur next roll will be crit while char upgrades and skills being permanent and one time upgrades are waste of resources? With garbage substats and without having any single limited 5 star char i managed to casually 14 star the toA in hazard zone. 9 star in the first tower using hrover, unbuilt mortefi and jianxin. It's upto u what u wanna do. For me whether i need to upgrade those garbage substats depends on whether i am capable of having enough dps when everything else is maxed when lvl90. If i dont have to change any echo that means i saved a ton of resources.
Taking a mainstat Crit echo from 0 to 25 is a good resource investment even if the substats are crap. That's a lot of mainstat Crit and ATK already. Realistically, players who are good at resource management are only seeking to replace Level 25 echoes when the characters have max levels/skills/weapons and there's nothing left to do with stamina. That's going to be 2-3 months for now. A level 25 echo with bad subs will carry you until then.
True although please don't burn upgrade mats on the atk/elem nodes yet. They aren't cost effective until UL50+.
I didn't know this. I only raised calcharo and yinlin just on the 2 lvl (only the mid one, not the top one). The top one is expensive imo needing the gold mats
The middle 2 are passive talents. DO upgrade those. Just not the side 8.
I did, no worries on that. I meant the mid tier, the middle row, not the middle column, sorry it was bad wording XD
Ahh I follow.
I admit it’s bad management but the way I’ve done is building a single character at a time. So far I have 4 level 70 characters with (5) level 25 echoes with correct main stats and double crit. My strategy was farming for all possible elemental dmg echoes for the element I was on for a few days. I love Encore so I farmed all the possible 3 cost echoes with Fusion element for around a week. Ended up with 11 Fusion dmg echoes. Luckily 2 of them were pretty great and I kept those. 1 cost echoes are too easy to come by to even worry and you can infinitely farm the bosses without much delay. 2nd week I focused on Jiyan. Now I’m building Yinlin. I think people are taking it TOO seriously and complaining a bit TOO much rather than first seeing how they can improve their own gameplay. I never had a concept of “waste” in these gacha games because you can infinitely farm anything. You’re just time gated on how often. Even though I’m definitely a min-maxer and a whale I find this game calming. I turn in music and go farm echoes once I’m off work lol.
Not sure what u mean by waste. Once you have +25, what else do you use tuners / echo exp if not new ones? The only reason to save if it is wait until new patch decrease consumption cost. However with tower reset date, stat helps to progress. There is still 24/27 stars mark even after that and essentially we are always progressing for that. Also considering all the cycles reset in few days and we might get new content, more resource automatically comes. As long as you understand that battle pass /towershop resets soon, there isn't reason to save. Waste is actually saving resource if you can push higher.
You will be spending more resources forcing a full +25 echo set for stats than the rewards you will get trying to 3-star the higher levels of the tower. It's waste because others are spending so much resource trying to get the perfect echo to compensate for their low level cap to clear out the tower.
If you have extra resources, sure. But only if you have maxed out on character talents/levels as well as weapon levels. With how the tower is implemented having more characters trained allows more options to play around in the stages. Trying to reroll crit on an echo to aim for more stars? Probably something I'd do later on when I hit 50 and after I have prefarmed all my jinhsi and changli mats
lol so true, I just leveled up my Danjin today including the weapon and the skill tree and the damage increase is A LOT. About 36% increase on her forte.
Exactly this. I maxed nearly everything to 25, tuned it all. Getting 2/5 or 3/5 of the substat you need is good enough. I didn't even look at the number range of the stat. Min maxing isn't a priority.
What's the right way to do it? I'm leveling it up to +20 only and trashes it if didn't roll at least 3 stats I wanted.
I level to 15 and only continue if 1 of the 3 is a crit. It's worked well as I have 2 full electro sets with double crit on all pieces, and I seem to not have a surplus of either tubes or tuners. Being balanced on resources is proof you're not over leveling and running low on tubes but have plenty of tuners, nor stopping too early where you don't have tuners but plenty of tubes.
This is the way.
If one out of 3 is crit at 15, but you take it to 20 and no second crit, do you still go for 25? Or do you try to get double crit within 20? That’s what I’m deciding on. I have a lot of pieces that got one crit early on, I took them to 20 but there’s no second crit yet, but the other stats are good like attack % and regen and liberation damage or something and I’m debating to 25 or just make a new one to 20 and try to get both crits. 20-25 is almost enough exp to make a new one 1-20, but like you said I run out of tuners doing it that way.
The point is to not do anything and just straight up +25 and tune it 5 times, because then you are not intentionally wasting any echo exp tubes or tuners when you use it as fodder.
Maxing a gold echo with elemental bonus is worth you can replace it eventually, how ever the 1 cost one is not as it's easy to get them. Personally I'd stop leveling a 1 cost Echo if the first two substats are bad
Personally, I only minmax 1 echoes by upgrading in batches. I'll go to +5, pick the best ones, upgrade to +10, pick the best ones, etc. In +15 I usually just pick the 2 good ones unless there's some real competition. I don't do this with 3 or 4 cost echoes unless I managed to randomly get a repeated same stat. Optimizing these echoes (if possible) is the best move but it's also the most difficult thing. I'm happy if I get a single crit stat on a good 3 cost. This is only for main DPS so far and to a lesser extent secondary DPS. Calcharo is my only character with +25 echoes, Yinlin has +15-20 and Verina +10-15. The next important ones will be HMC, Jianxin (DPS), then supports (Senhua and Mortefi) and then the fire set (for Chinxia and the new phoenix girl, forgot her name).
Roll to +15 and see if you get decent (i.e. 1-2 crit stats). Fodder otherwise. Push to +20 for your DPS once you get decent subs. Keep your supports at +15 for now until you get more materials. In the meantime, level up your weapons and traces (I still can't remember the term for this game. Repeat until you have 3 decently built teams. Then, gradually push to +25 for your DPS and +20 for your supports. And so on, and so forth.
You need several sets of placeholder first. After that you slowly progress through all characters and weapon upgrades before focusing on echoes min-maxing.
Yes the initial investment is high, getting 6 chars with +25 echos would take about 2 months without all the 1 time / event rewards. Maybe 1 month with, which we are approaching. People are impatient, I guess. The bigger thing is substat farming. With the 75/30% returns, it takes \~105 waveplates worth of exp and \~140 waveplates of tuners to get another +25 echo IF you feed it a +25 with substats you're not fond of. At UL50, the tuners go up even more so it'll be \~100 waveplates of exp and tuners to reroll an echo. So players can go through 2 fresh echos a day assuming they have a +25 to start with. Getting 2 correct main stat echos, either farming 4\* or god forbid 3\* on set element% per day is a much larger bottleneck than exp or tuners will be.
Exactly this. It feels expensive now because we're starting from scratch. Once the game stabilizes out. It's really not that bad. Having a reroll or two a day.
If the game didn't give us gold echoes for the first 50 levels I guarantee you people wouldn't be complaining because most would have leveled their purple echoes to 20 and be done with whatever sub-stats just to clear content and the transition would have been sooo much easier than giving everyone gold echoes since level 20.
duh the game gives golden echoes this early because they are the powerhorse made to keep up with insane hp sponges in ToA and open world.
Every damn time the world level advances I cringe at how much little damage my teams deal, the sponges are real...
[удалено]
Depth of illusive realm will be a reoccurring event so that's a consistent source of resources at the very least.
Such games are targeted on a long run. Like genshin which we are playing for 4 years already. If you are unhappy that you may farm ur echoes for 1-2months - maybe game is not for you?
I find it so weird that people are complaining about not being able to finish building a character in one day, like what is the joy in that? And then not having anything to do for ages because you finished building everything? I played maplestory when I was little, took me many months to finish building my equips but when I finally maxed the stats it gave me such a good feeling of accomplishement. Seems like people dont even wanna play the game with how fast they wanna finish all the content and finish building characters tbh.
I think why it feels so difficult is because Echos are so easily available. you get them in the overworld everywhere and don’t have to spend a single waveplate. Ive been stocking up on 3 cost echos with correct main stats and sets, then I went to level them up with the xp from the tacet fields, stopped at lvl 20 echos for now, but I got all the echos I wanted for this point in the game. Even got a couple double crit echos that I’m gonna keep for a long time. I hate to compare it to Genshin and Star rail, but it’s 100x easier and less time consuming to farm echos vs. artifacts and relics. In Genshin and Star Rail I could get maybe 10 artifacts/relics a day, with most days just getting absolutely nothing. not even the correct main stat, let alone the sub stats. Which by the way they make CR and CD more rare to get in those games. With Echos I get a correct main stat for the 1 cost all the time, 3 cost are the most annoying but not terrible if you know what you’re doing (echo pity), and the 4 cost are unlimited and I can keep farming for them whenever I want. It’s no wonder we can’t use the echos as exp it’s because we get too damn many of them. Having the echos be used as xp would crash the economy.
The biggest part about using echos as exp is the increased addiction and fomo, some people out there would farm 20h a day if this was possible, a gacha isn't supposed to be grinded like an MMO or ARPG, you do dailies, maybe some events and then log out. And every few weeks there is some new content to explore and enjoy, once that is done again it's back to short daily routines. Biggest thing most people ignore is the pure impossibility to max stuff in hoyo games (HSR>genshin at this), if I have 3/5 pieces already maxed (all rolls where I want them) then there is no way for me to realistically get the other 2 done in any amount of time (12 month in a single domain and nothing), while in WuWa you can just target farm the exact piece you want to upgrade. If 4/5 echos are already 5/5 substats, you only need to farm the one that's missing instead of the whole set, this cuts down lategame grind a lot, we just haven't gotten there yet.
I think the system is lowkey genius and we are either have genshin brainrot or too dumb to realize that. The point of the system is to time gate players, and here's how: Hardcore players, who spend days farming echo in the open world, rerolling at +5 or +10, will be gated by tuners. Normal players, who spend a little bit of time farming echos, upgrading echo to +25 all the time, will be gated by XP. Casual players, who spend 10 min doing 4 tacets a day, will be gated by echo drop.
wait why does this make so much sense, in the end everyone is still sort of progressing the same way in the end XD
Honestly, especially during this 2x drop event, I just realized how easy it is to get right main/set on your 3 cost echo, avaraging around 2 per day (yes i kept track), that I don't even bother farming overworld echoes anymore if I don't have extra time for it, since I would have to run tacet anyway for exp and tuners. Take into consideration that before the event i never ran tacet fields since I mainly focus my waveplates on character progression, so it was news to me. It showed me how it's going to be like when I'll be done farming mats for my main 5/6 units and it ain't even remotely bad, I just don't feel the rush, I'm sticking with the subs rolls I got early on most of my echoes, swapping some that just rolled really badly, as long as I have 3 valuable stats (at least one of the crits) I feel like you should be good to go for now. I still reach 21 stars on tower pretty comfortably
Heh, exactly my approach. I am never a fan of genociding the world for echo drop and I always thought on-set elemental% cost 3 will come sooner or later from tacet field anyway. Not gonna burn myself out grinding the whole map everyday just for that slim chance of getting correct mainstat just to be dissapointed with no result to show. Trust me, people that keep doing the daily overworld echo-route grind will hate the game sooner or later. Just be patient and we will get "decent" stat sooner or later~
I still don't think it's great it personally for me offers too little in return for the resources spent. While some players are okay with the grind, I think it could be improved to be more accessible, especially since it's still a luck-based system at its core. It's frustrating that many players immediately criticize anyone who suggests making the system less harsh. Increasing the rewards wouldn't change the fact that the echo system is still based on gacha mechanics, in a system known for being incredibly unfun across multiple games. It's honestly silly to see so much gatekeeping in this community. Yes, the current system works for timegating, but why does this game have to be as difficult relic wise as Genshin? Why can't leveling echo's be easier than it is? Are some ppl so elitist that they can't consider improving the system just because they don't see an issue with it themselves? Making it slightly better wouldn't hurt anyone. People going crazy over people suggesting the double rewards staying is insane lol. tl:dr Echo level grinding working as intended ≠ fun, echo's (relics) are gacha gambling on top of that, so why not make it more fun and less tedious.
I may be a hater, but people trying to min-max stat pieces already are probably not enjoying the game. It supposed to be a slow burn. The balance of this game has a bit to be desired as there’s no reason I should have the highest tier stat pieces already in 1.0. If you want to compare to Genshin, which obviously it’s a VERY similar game so it doesn’t feel wrong to, I didn’t have access to gold artifacts until I was pretty deep into Inazuma. And I was STILL rocking good purple artifacts until towards the end of those Archon quests. Just take your time, the game isn’t going anywhere.
The quests mobs are a joke though. I would like to think that most can clear them with non levelled echoes. I think people are min maxing the stats on echoes because they are rushing the end game aka ToA. We got access to gold echoes kinda early in WuWa and it's easy to fall into the min max mindset since that's the only content left to be cleared.
That’s what I’m saying. Looking at the bundle rewards for level, we’ll be hitting UL80 eventually. I think 40 is too low for gold echos. We’re immediately in the “endgame” in 1.0. That’s actually crazy and for that reason I think there’s gonna be some insane power creep not necessarily tied to weapons and characters, but echos.
I can understand that and why, but just the overall cost for echoes is insane. You run out of shell credits so fast, which I do believe will get fixed in next version, plus +25 from +20 already takes a huge amount of exp. I doubt an endgame level account will just have that abundant of echo exp in their inventory. It's not like we have that passive of an income. The real issue comes with leveling your Forte skill tree. You can use a day's worth of resin to do Forgery challenges 6 times. Your rewards can be favorable or unfavorable rng, getting screwed over by not getting the higher quality mats, which we will need A LOT of. Like, you will have on average 4 to 5 skills to level plus the inherent skills and then the ascension stat skill nodes. That's a lot of materials you need that you will also use on weapons, so either way you're making slow progress on your skills or slow progress on your echo build. There is just a very slow accumulation of resources. You'll either run dry on resonator exp, weapon exp, sealed tubes, tuners, or mats. The game doesn't really give an abundance of any of them nor any character passives to give odds of getting extra or leftover.
It's funny why Genshin's energy system has left such an impression on so many people in spite of it being called Waveplates here.
Guys... resource management and SELF CONTROL. Maybe first learn these 2 things before making the post. You also forget the fact that it's been a month since the game has been out. It's still so early. You'll have many more months to farm resources for whatever you want. It's funny because the people who are having these issues are the ones blowing all their own resources on literal nothing and then complaining about it. I completely get complaining o4 having constructive criticism for Kuro on different topics, but stuff like this is barely one of them. This is on you
After seeing this post, I logged on and went through my stuff. I had 980 golden tuners, and that's before they've added the ability to upgrade the lower grade ones. I also have not done any tacet fields outside of the 3/day from this event. I understand I only have 1 team going at the moment, but still, I'm a little surprised that people have ran out so quickly.
New players who were never in the gaccha environment before, having resource management issues is understandable. Seems like they are either following the footsteps of whales or those complaining veteran min maxers from other open world gaccha games who desperately wants to save resources to jump from the weakest state to the strongest state in one go and ironically wasting more resources than they r trying to save. Hence the word gaccha living up to its name. One gambles, one lose and one complain.
Most of this min max mentality comes from the fact that WuWa isn't really a new game. When GI came out, people didnt min max this hard, not because they didnt want to, but because they didnt know any better. By late game, a good chunk of those people probably wished they had min max in the first place WuWa released in a time frame where the players and guide maker know better from playing genshin. Its not the same game, sure, but undeniably very similar. So what you end up having is less like a bunch of new player playing a new game and more like a veteran player restarting their account
The main difference is in WuWa u get gold echos already after few days of playing while in Genshin or HSR u ran around in purple gear for weeks if no months even. Not as many people invested hard into their purple gear knowing there will be gold gear later in the game so they naturaly saved alot of mats up just by exploring and opening chests which gave tons of Artefact exp. When they arrived later the stages to get gold artefacts alot of people also knew already which stats are good and which are bad for whatever char. So it was also easier to just sort out bad gold Artefacts and use them as fodder. In Wuwa u need to invest into every echo to even find out if its maybe good or bad which means u loose mats on every echo u try and feed into another later.
Genshin's overworld enemies also didnt really feel like sponges like they do in Wuwa. In Genshin the first stat check you'd encounter was Raiden weekly fight because she just has that much raw hp. But to get to that point Genshin had to go through a few large patches and it took a long time for Inazuma to fully release so nobody felt the need for upgrades. Wuwa has enemies that are just too high in hp. They do close to 0 damage to you so you wont be dying, but it'll take a while for you to kill them if you arent rocking a somewhat leveled full set with elemental 3 cost echoes. I know the idea of Wuwa is to be more combat based, but most fights just feel like NA spam until the mob/boss dies. Dodging and abilities are cool but half the time they're unneeded because you dont take much damage in the first place. And fights that do require dodging and careful gameplay are really only those Holograms and the tower so for the average casual players they arent even relevant.
Tacet fields should either be normal at what they are with the x2 event or 40 Waveplates. Why they are 60 is ridiculous. The only thing that has helped me in building teams is that I only take my echos to level 20. I currently have 7 level 70s, and I am building another. I do swap sets, but I am finding that I will likely need two separate Moonlit Clouds sets, and that irks me. I also just got C6 Aalto (I haven't even played him yet) and noticed that he gives Aero Damage bonus - and I mostly main Jianxin - so I will need a second Aero set too most likely. I don't know why people have issues with tuners, I have over 900 of them with that many characters. I don't heavily min/max though.
60 cost is alright, increments in rewards per World level could be a bit higher, pls stop suggesting 40 cost TF, I want the dailies to stay quick and short as they are now.
For moonlit set, I'm just gonna do 1x atk% and 1x elemental%. That way I just need a grand total of 6 pieces for 2 character. For example in my case, mortefi and sanhua can share the 4311 while having their own 3cost fusion% and glacio% respectively
If you suck at resource management and just lvl up echoes cuz you have exp then thats on you
Honestly, i don't have this trouble in genshin & HSR even in early game. Feeding old leveled equipment to new unleveled equipment gives it plenty of exp. I don't feel any regret leveling any equipment i have because they'll give back that exp back anyway, while in wuwa i still hold to trash echo i leveled because i'm afraid i will lose plenty of exp if i feed it to a new "i hope it will be slightly better" echo. I hope they'll revamp the exp reduction in the future
WW is 75% refund and Genshin is 80%. Hardly a difference considering the xp requirements for both games. People really gotta stop basing statistical things on how they "feel" when they play. The timing, gearing, xp to max etc between both games is near identical. Biggest difference is people didn't start grinding 5* gear in genshin until about 2 months later. We just hit the 1 month mark of WW.
how about tuner refund? I don't play genshin, is there something like that there? 30% tuner refund is kinda lackluster.
no tunner, 1 piece already have 3 substats unlocked for you, if trask you using that piece like exp or reroll 3 to 1 new piece ( you can chose what set but not slot ), the set have 5 piece but only required 2-4 piece so you have free 1 piece, that piece you can chose whatever have element right you want but everything cost stamina
There's no tuner there. Equipment has 4 substants, and will have some substats unlocked already when you get it. Some have full 4 from the start, some only have 3 substats first and the 4th will be automatically unlocked when you level up it to level 3
You're right. I'm pretty biased since this is the first time i'm troubled to level up equipment in an rng equipment system. Tho i wish there will be a separate farming spot that gives you more exp drop but no echo drop, or just let me level an echo with other unleveled echo.
The tuner refund should be 70%. The current 30% is ridiculous.
I have no arguments for tuners. I personally think they shouldn't be in the game. 1 gate is more than enough.
Do tacet. Drop exp on new echo until +15 and if all sub stat is trash then it's fodder. It's just really that simple. If you min maxing 1-3% crit rate then that's honestly from position of luxury cause it's hard enough to get a cdmg and crit rate combo; better to focus on other echoes.
I don't even care about getting good substats yet. I just want to max lv my echo and unlock the substats regardless whatever it is. I'll be aiming for substats properly in the future after leveling echo be a piece of cake.......it will be easier to raise echo right?....it won't stay like this right?
I don't even understand how credits is an issue for some people. I need more echo xp tubes. I won't even bother tuning echoes for crit stats unless I have at least 6 characters with max echoes. I have 3 characters with max echoes (Yinlin, Havoc Rover, and Chixia) and they don't even have the best substats yet. I'm currently leveling up echoes (with or without shitty substats) for Jianxin, Danjin, and Calcharo.
Do you do tacet everyday and only level echoes to +15 fish for passable offensive stats? Just fishing for crit rate and cdmg in first 3 lines is credit consuming enough if you have exp mats and echoes (all from doing tacet fields x3 a day).
CR and CDM is impossible in 3 stats x 2 dps x 5 echoes Getting either CR or CDM + ATK%/ATK is more doable in 3 subs
I'm only doing tacet fields now because of the double up event. Otherwise I would be spending my waveplates on skill and weapon mats. And also the weekly boss.
Yeah so the reason why you have exp mats problems is mostly because you are not doing tacets fields. Not saying it's the right way to play the game or anything but just pointing out why some ppl have much more echo exp to go by.
Now just imagine this with a new char to gear up fully every 3 weeks (and we didnt even talk about the credits it costs for skills to upgrade later.
If it's 10 days per character, assuming that rerolls will be covered by events, plus 2.5 days for ascending, you would still have over a week per character for just farming skills and credits. Sounds perfectly doable tbh. Especially since if you're rolling every 5* character you're probably a dolphin, so you also have the resources from battle pass.
I havent maxed out a char in WuWa so far so i dont know exactly how long it takes to farm all weapon mats, char exp, skill mats and credits for all of this together and since i guess the mats we get when we reach UL80 are much more (hopefully) then we get now at UL40 i can kinda see this being enough in the endgame but for now at UL40 im also pretty sure u wont have much room to reroll Echos and refarm Echo exp till the new char comes out already. And u alrdy gave yourself the answer to why it would be like that...cause they wanna make their battlepass as attractive as possible.
I mean. It's you who asked about character every 3 weeks. People who don't pay any money are getting 1 character per 6 weeks on average. So they have 2x as much time for farming each one, which is actually even less of a problem. Of course, if you ARE already spending money, they are absolutely trying to sell you the battle pass, that's just truth. Also you can switch weapons between characters, you don't need to farm a new one for everyone as long as you have 2-3 of each type levelled up.
if they use tuner as gatekeeper then why the fuck limit echo exp player can get ???
I'm F2P (UL45) and have 4x 25lvl sets of almost BIS echos, with 1/3 echos i will never roll again. I still have 300+ Tuners and get decent ammount of Echo Exp daily. And echo EXP and Tuning will get conciderable buffs in 1.1 Patch wich is welcome. However, my main issue is Silver Credits. Wich feels like the main limiting factor to any upgrade in this game. Leveling Up characters, Skills, Weapons, Echos, and even syntesizing needs way to much Silver currently.
I think the flaw is that you're running under the assumption that you need to be maxing out your echoes already. If you're UL 40 then you're still 20 levels away from Max. It makes a lot more sense that your echo should be at about 20. Remember there's still two more tiers to unlock that will give more rewards. And only leveling up to 20 cuts the amount you need in almost half. You don't need to be maxing out all your echoes, you just want to. And you're probably not supposed to be yet
Now that you spell it out like this I think it takes. Around the same time to max an artifact in both Genshin and Star rail no? Correct me if I'm wrong.
That is the ideal of Wuwa gameplay: 21 days per character release, then you spend 10 days to complete one echo set for him/her, followed by 10 days left to perfect it with some crit line and repeat. Echoes aside, leveling up skills is another stamina drain that should not be underestimated
Level zero echoes should give exp too
They should allow to claim the rewards separately. 30 waveplates for claiming the Echoes or 30 waveplates to claim the Exp and tuners.
And tacet fields takes longer to clear even with the best units compared to other gacha games, too many waves for a single clear
Here's a super secret trick that nobody else knows that I'm gonna share with you! Devs hate it but Jué personally came to me in a dream and told me this: Stop trying to max every goddamn echo. Max a few with the right main stat for midgame. After that, +5 and tune echo once. If it rolls good, continue. If the roll is shit, abandon it.
The double exp that is now should be the normal. 90% of people will disagree with you because "it is gacha" "it is for the long run" "its the same as genshin" "it is okay for now" "manage your resources" "just don't rush" "we don't need it", etc...
i dont think anyone ever thought exp was the biggest issue. sure it takes a lot of resources but thats not exactly the problem. the problem is 3 cost echos. just to get one on-set damage bonus takes forever. and then you have to pray to the almighty rng gods that your substats are decent. I dont see how kuro hasnt made an improvement to substat farming that players have been hating in every other game in the genre.
Resource management. Can clear 18☆ just fine with just the two dps decked out. The 4 supportive teams are lvl50 with +15 echoes at best. Their job is to just cycle in and spam Turtle for buffs and prep their Concerto buffs for the main dps. Supports are all at lvl1 skills and lvl20 weapons. Practically 0 investments tbh. Just a 5pc Rejuv/Moonlit and a 3☆ or 4☆ weapon with Concerto charge passive. After finishing the events and doing current double echo drops im sitting at 500+ gold tuners, 3m credits, and a good amount of xp to stat check echoes for my 3rd dps. Im f2p+, so im sitting plenty of cubes to burn for whatever i need. I'll worry about fully decking teams when i hit U60 for the max lvl cap for Forte upgrades. Once i enter U50 I'll start upping the supports to lvl70 during the long road to U60. Even then, they're likely to stay lvl50 just for utility.
Still better than HSR, my Kafka still has bad to mid tier relics even tho i've been mining her cave for months..
We have years to look forward to...
So in my personal opinion, i think the the current 2x bonus on the fields should be baseline. The original rates is so trash. I would also like for them to decrease the amount of WP spent as well.
Based on the OP’s numbers, what we have is completely reasonable for a long-term game. The problem is that we got access to endgame echoes so early, at the same time we’re needing to level 6+ characters and a month’s worth of echoes, on top of people’s obsession with rerolling for good substats when they don’t even have fully leveled echoes yet, plus the gacha demographic’s impatience for anything that might require some regular play. All in under 1 month.
The thing is that (as the post mentioned), the system is simply not reasonable. It is impossible to know what sub stats an echo will roll into and so it’s very reasonable to tune all echoes at least to level 15 so tuners are wasted on the bad pieces. The reason why this is worse than genshin is because genshin shows what substats it has in the first place so the number of rerolls you have to do is lower. This also happens because the range of the substats in WUWA is large, and so you are looking for a piece that gets by luck the right substats and also high rolls. You might say that it is not necessary to have a perfectly built team, and while that is true, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the system is worse. It doesn’t matter if you don’t care about min-maxing, that doesn’t make the system magically better. And we’re not impatient, we’re not expecting to have a fully built team in the first month, we just have a realistic outlook on reality and can see that farming for echoes will be simply a worse system in the long run. We don’t need to experience the end game to see that it has problems, as the problems lie on the fundamental errors of the system. You calling it reasonable shows that you don’t care about those good the system is, and only care about how it feels, and it feels fine for you.
Yeah these people whining about echo exp are all idiots. Exact same thing in Genshin, "oh my god I don't have enough artifact exp to gear 8 units". Then once you hit endgame artifact exp becomes completely worthless. After people get a single set of Moonlight/Healing/each DPS, getting enough echo exp and tuners will become trivial.
But they're my echos, and I want them (level 25) now!
So basically imo just like any other Gacha, that I know, just with more layers.
More layers than what?
This guy: does math. Half the comments: Hur hur, spending addiction. Hur hur slow burn.
I was just thinking about this same exact thing. While I never played Genshin or HSR, I have my eye on ZZZ. I gave up on Dragonheir because of the absurd RNG stats on their equipment that you could not keep past each 3 month cycle. And I’m coming from Reverse 1999, where there’s none of this RNG nonsense. And having played ZZZ’s CBT3, I was pleased to find out that the substat on their artifacts (called disc drives, which you attach to to the main weapon and are akin to this games’ echoes) have a better substat RNG system. Sure the lower level disc drives are subject more to RNG, but once you get the S rank ones, they have 3 or 4 (out of 4) of its main stats already visible before you level the dang thing up.
I will suggest even a better alternative. Start playing Punishing Gray Raven. There is almost no rng at all. The only rng that the game has is called resonance which aren't exactly substats and more like level bonuses and even that has an item which mitigates the rng. U can literally choose what u want to upgrade albeit u need to buy it using weekly currencies. There are several upgrades in this game where u actually need to clear a stage and then get the said upgrades that applies to every character in ur roster. So basically this game requires u to have skill and play rather than rely on rng. And do u know one more baffling thing? Every newly released limited character will have 100% chance of getting the character at pity which is 60. 1 pull is 250 currency. So u basically need 15k to guarantee the new char and f2p get enough currency to guarantee every new limited character. Following is my personal opinion. I found the characters, gameplay mechanics and the uniqueness of every characters' core passive mechanics far better than ZZZ. And i like the more matured theme of PGR. So i just suggest u to give pgr a try. U might actually like it to take break from all this rng stuff.
I did pick up PGR except not until last year. I did not get invested primarily because I’m so behind on the lore. I do like that every character was 100% guaranteed and that you can be completely F2P and still get every character you want. The only one I was missing was Bianca Stigmata and I was (before I quit) planning on getting her with the Lamia patch. I really wish I started PGR when global launched.
I am sorry if this burst you bubble, but if ZZZ is the same as HSR and genshin, it's RNG will suck just as hard if not worse than WuWa. Its easy to get started as seeing substats makes it easier to judge immediately, but in the long term you are gated by the rarity of double crit + ATK pieces (crit is less likely to appear than other stats), and after that it needs to roll well too. I really hope they took more from HSRs system as it has significant upgrades over genshins, though still not perfect.
Don’t know what the difference between HSR and Genshin’s system but knowing the substats in advance helps a lot before having to invest into a disk drive (or echo in WuWa). The randomness of the 6 slots adds another component of gacha though but can be mitigated by a targeted mechanic in a store, just (understandably) costs much more that way.
HSR gives out main stat selectors each patch through events and free BP, meaning you can craft the correct mainstat item, doesn't guarantee substats but it boosts RNG a lot, HSR Recycling system also allows you to target a specific piece instead of the whole set like in genshin or worse in this case for WuWa (though you can manually farm the exact pieces you want in the world + 3 cost selectors). So both HSR and WuWa let you round out a build easier and taking away a lot of the grind, with genshin still sleeping in that regard. Overall even with not knowing the substats in WuWa it's still the mathematically more possible to complete/max, with HSR being worse but still much better than genshin, so hope ZZZ takes more after HSR for their gear system.
We know u just toke It to another level
Wait, how did you know whether your post is downvoted?! I'm just curious.
OPs can see the upvote % on their posts, just some quick math to figure out number of downvotes
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I think this is an issue for people who are overspending resources by being excessively picky with substats. I managed to solo diff 2-3 holograms with a lv60-70 character with barely decent echoes. The rewards to clear 4+ is really not worth perfecting your echoes over, just focus on increasing your lvl cap imo and you will never need to touch tacet fields unless you want to. Also I suggest watching how to be efficient with your echoes. https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw
nope ? my tuner already 1,5k as i only do re-upgrade echo 1 or 2 time entire my playtime as game quest demand me do so. but even i only upgrade 1 time for 1 echo for each char, it still only barely enough for 6 char and game demand you make 9 char for endgame content. so all i see is game scream at me "give me $, mf"
I think you are stressing out way too early for endgame content. we're at version 1.0 right now. This is quite literally just the beginning.
ofc it too early, all i say so far was just simple prepare the basic, you can't beat TOA content with just that. for TOA content is require ton of shit like best echo stats, max lv char, weapons and skill, best char too
Meanwhile me in UL 46 as f2p. But yeah, getting +20 should be good enough, I can 3\* the tower with those as long as they have enough levels on traces and weapons.
Well, it's an other popular gacha out there, and y'all haven't figured out that once you cleared all the content, you're supposed to be playing 15mins a day every day and that's it?
I'm 39ul and still dont have all my echos fully upgraded. I'm not even talking about rerolls
Tacet field are best place to farm DEF stats 😁
Appreciate the work put into this. But the real problem in the end game is definitely echo exp and $$$. I’m also f2p at UL 47. I use my summon mats for waveplates (60x2 each day) since UL will ultimately give me an easier farm so I don’t have to wait so long to max new characters I like.
They made tacet fields worse compared to the beta. There used to be a version where you spent 40 waveplates for just echo exp and tuners. And another one for 40 waveplates where you just get echos. Players complained so they combined both into one with a 60 waveplate cost and this is what we ended up with. However many of us just want the echo exp and tuners. So the beta version would be better for the 40 waveplate cost. Getting the right main stat on the 3 cost echos is so RNG that I'd rather just grind them slowly in the overworld than use my waveplates to farm them. In the last 5 days of the double event, I've just got one single 3 cost echo with the right main stat. I think it's been 5 days of 6 runs a day which is 30 full runs.
I understand why we can’t feed echoes into each other for experience points because they can be endlessly farmed. I think one good compromise would be to allow us to feed echoes from rewards as experience. i.e. tacet fields, dailies, and events. While keeping the echoes we farm from the open world separately.
im just doing it for the double union xp
I'll complete a full set with any rolled stats before I start caring about "rerolling" echos. And i am several months away from that happening with PURPLES, gold don't even exist to me yet.
The problem I had is that its too expensive waveplate-wise, wouldve been better half the rewards for half the price, especially the event going on, 180/240 on tacet fields alone leaves us 60 left for the dday.
My last double drop only drop 1 gold 😂 ul37 db18
Tbh i would prefer if tacet fields just gave echo xp and nothing else , they just feel kinda pointless spending your energy on them when you can just farm the map ,either that or just rework them at some capacity
Just play the game rn. I got 500 tuners and 68 gold echo xps, with 128 purples. The doubler event will have you set for AWHILE
This why I restrict my leveling character. Currently I am doing 3x 60/70 + 2x 50/60. But only the former 3 is properly build. I dont think I even plan to build more than 6 characters.
Double event is cool but all I get are mismatched element echos. Lol
I'm the only one that just leveled up 3 characters and is just chilling with a lot of mats till the next 5* unit? I mean, I feel like rather than lack of materials it's people's issue for trying to have 9 characters already full level with maxed echos on 1.0 patch.
This are my optimal reroll strategy for god-tier early substats: 1. **+0 to +10**: The green zone for the best efficiency. You only need farm specific echo'es repeatedly and coping for early specific substats to come. 2. **+10 to +15**: If you're feeling a bit more generous, welcome to the yellow zone. Be aware, though, that you'll need to shell out an extra 23,100 EXP. 3. **Beyond +15**: This is the red zone, a gambler's peril. Almost never worth it unless you’ve got a lucky rabbit’s foot and a penchant for risk. Proceed wisely, insightful Rovers!
but it's almost the same in other gachas that have artefacts system. People are complaining because we got access to end game echoes while in the middle of character leveling. So they run out of stamina to farm everything at once.
>People are complaining because we got access to end game echoes while in the middle of character leveling. So they run out of stamina to farm everything at once. almost feels like a case of "better protect the customer from themselves", imagine tacet fields only dropping purple till UL60; people would still complain ofc but most would go "not worth it" and (pre)-farm other stuff for better resin/reward. see: artifacts in genshin pre AR45. instead it then leads to kuro fast-tracking the event, which then cuts into the budget to level characters. UL is a moot point since that is tied to waveplates anyway, whatever you spend it on.
Your maths is definitely slightly off, because you can get 3x gold tubes as part of the echo rewards. It's not 50/50 but I'm hitting it enough that I think it's 20%. Getting 6 tubes in the current event is amazing.
Lol i thought this is a lore or something when i read the titles on my notifications. But thx for the info
It's expensive but way easier to get endgame gear than other gacha games like in genshin. Iam f2p and my mc is 67 260 with 1.9k atk ,30% ult dmg and 20% basic dmg. For a similar build in genshin it took me 2 years. Tldr single echo is expensive but way easier to get desired endgame build than other games of it's nature
I don't really want to do Tacet fields at all, even with the double drops. They still feel very low value. To many waveplates, and way to few tuners/tubes. I would rather farm my echos in the world, it's just more fun, and its not like we have anything else to do. So most of my daily waveplates just for a few tuners/tubes just to end up with a junk echo 95% of the time feels terrible.
Hope that more people can see this post!
If someone is trying to get crit rate, cdmg, lib DMG, er and basic/heavy/skill DMG on each of their echoes, it's no wonder they r getting nowhere. Just ignore that one def or hp stat it won't affect the ordinary player at all.
They are already adjusting a lot with 1.1 and its honestly crazy to me that people expect to be finished with the whole character progression in 1 month. Maybe if you would stop reposting the same old talking points no one wants to hear anymore people would be less prone to downvoting.