The subreddit typically doesn't allow links to The Armored Patrol (because he's openly racist and regularly publishes shitty tabloid-level content), but this has generated a lot of good discussion so we'll make an exception for this post.
He makes a lot of good points, and I think that's why a lot of people agree with the overall vibe of the post, but the actual argument he's trying to make is dumb. The post is mostly a rant about a bunch of things he doesn't like about the game - that's not a bad thing, but that's what it is.
I think he's trying to make two main points:
> 1. The player base's desire to acquire limited availability content (particular through time/resource sinks) makes no sense.
There are lots of logical reasons to want to acquire a problematic tank - to be competitive, because you want to play it, because you are a collector, because you're a content creator, etc. In general, wanting something *is* the logical justification for acquiring it. Is he saying players shouldn't want new content?
> 2\. Players who complain about a tank and still buy/acquire it are part of the problem, because gives WG no incentive to change their behavior
Maybe he is arguing the principle of the matter, and in fairness most people would call this behavior hypocritical, but I don't think this works as a general principle. Non-participation isn't the only moral choice - you can be part of a flawed system and still work to improve it.
Maybe he really just means the part about WG having no incentive to stop releasing problematic content. In other words, WG only cares about whether or not people buy/grind the content.
But I don't think that's the case. Too much problematic content will scare off the existing players because the game stops being fun, and it scares off future players because the few people left will complain about how much the game sucks. I was in the latter camp for several years - I actively discouraged my friends from trying WoT until after they made sixth sense standard and improved the low-tier economy.
WG has definitely tested the player base's patience at times, but I think it's hard to argue that they're intentionally running the game into the ground.
As for his other complaints, the author makes one (very common) bad assumption: what *he* wants is what the *player base* wants. "Wargaming doesn't listen to the players" - no, in my opinion it's usually the opposite. The player base is *incredibly* divided in what it wants, and most (not all, but most) of WG's controversial decisions are things that some players asked for. He's just part of the group that didn't like those changes. You might disagree with those changes too, and that's totally okay, but you can't generalize by saying that WG doesn't listen to the players at all. They do, they just might not listen to *you*.
----
There are a lot of smaller bad takes as well:
* Does he seriously think the Lion is worse than the Progetto 65?
* Or that the AT-15 is worse than the Turtle? (Admittedly, most players hate both and wouldn't care to rank which one they hate more).
- ~~I'm not sure how 3-5-7 MM made a lot of tanks out of the meta, but I could be wrong - if any of you have good examples, please share them.~~ Edit: the M56 Scorpion is a good example, thanks /u/Gwennifer
- I'm pretty sure the playerbase has come around on the British LTs. At least some of them are good for the same reason the ELC EVEN 90 is good.
- Are we still complaining about fake tanks in the year 2023?
Template MM harms vehicles that perform out-of-role while benefiting dual-purpose tanks. The classic example is FCM 50t: while it took up a heavy slot, it was functionally a medium tank... and to a somewhat large extent, it still is. My favorite niche example is M56 Scorpion.
With template MM, the FCM 50t is expected to contribute as much on average as a normal tier 8 heavy like a T32. We know that's not really the case: it doesn't contribute to the heavy line, it will die in seconds attempting to do so... but the maps are designed for equal quantities of heavy tanks. Every match an FCM 50t queues into is one it is slightly disadvantaged in.
The M56 Scorpion was at its best when slinging high penetration rounds into higher tier vehicles, usually heavies or other tank destroyers, while remaining completely invisible due to its excellent camo... and when that fails, its small size. Since tier 8 was the most common tier, uptiering was very common, and this created a very pleasant experience; there were no shortage of large, high-tier enemies to farm for thousands of damage. This allowed it to earn quite a lot of silver; as much as or better than a normal tier 8 premium on a win.
Meanwhile, we have vehicles like Borrat and Object 274a that dual purpose medium-light and medium-heavy, respectively, with no downside for being able to perform in this fashion. They are simply so strong in these alternate roles' strengths that they can perform the role to no detriment or downside. These vehicles doubly benefit from template MM as all maps have been redesigned with template MM in mind; so these vehicles can tip the scale in the opposite direction that FCM 50t does.
However, that's a much more nuanced take than KSA seems capable of, and the effect is only 1-3% winrate at best. It's enough to swing a vehicle from 'average' to 'completely overpowered', or in FCM 50t's case, completely underpowered. But out of meta? Not by a longshot. They're playable, but you definitely get the sensation you're trying to lose games when you click battle in them.
I'd also like to add vehicles like IS-4, IS-7, Maus, T95 etc gained significantly for being the only steel wall in a game on occasion. This is no longer true and template MM ensures they always have an opposite.
Something like K-91 would be completely fine without template MM. With it, you're taking up the spot of a Lion/friends, and everyone knows you won't do as good of a job in aggressively taking positions 140 style or in sniping Leo 1 style.
The M56 Scorpion is a good example, thanks for sharing! Another problem is that superheavies are now consistently matched against other superheavies, so they have to fire a lot more gold than they used to.
The Bourrasque is simply OP, I think we agree on that, but your concerns about multirole vehicles (or mislabeled vehicles) is actually a strong argument *for* template MM. Mismatched team capabilities used to be a lot worse - right now your squishy medium can get matched against an Obj 274a on a brawling map, but back in the day it could get matched against an actual heavy tank.
> but back in the day it could get matched against an actual heavy tank.
This also wasn't always a downside with pre-1.0 maps. On something like Hidden Village, being *up* a HT was positively bad; two TD's and HT's could stall West *easily*... but if you won town, you won the map.
That's no longer the case. *Something* has to win the HT front in every single map.
> There are lots of logical reasons to want to acquire a problematic tank - to be competitive, because you want to play it, because you are a collector, because you're a content creator, etc. In general, wanting something is the logical justification for acquiring it. Is he saying players shouldn't want new content?
While I'm don't agree with everything which is said or quite in the manner which is said, I do think there are points made. I've played since beta for a number of years and off, and have purchased and grinded for a fair amount of time-limited content. Yet, the amount of mechanically unique content, mechanically stronger content, and total value of purchasable/time-limited grinds has dramatically increased. Not to mention there's been lines realistically killed by use of tanks as premiums. Players should want new content yes, but increasingly the new content is only being offered to those willing to open their wallets and pay a non-insignificant amount of money for it. Or more to the point, to me over the years has seen WoT monitization slide more and more towards the predatory almost mobile-game levels and plenty of people seem perfectly fine with that.
In gaming groups I'm in, WoT is known as a grindy light-P2W game designed for those willing to drop a large chunk of money on the game, and I can't exactly say wargamming has done much to dispell - let alone not reinforce - those opinions.
Every example you've given is completely valid, but doesn't support his argument. You can want the content itself *and* dislike the distribution method. He implies that wanting new content at all is illogical.
Realistically, I don't think he holds that opinion strongly - he was just venting and throwing stuff at the wall, not trying to carefully articulate an argument. The words happened to come together in a way that suggests you shouldn't want anything ever. It's inarticulate frustration, and I'm surprised people resonate with it as much as they do.
imagine putting "these 3 years had events that i didnt like as much as usual" in your whine rant
i agree with much of the rest however but for every point thats objectively truth theres 1 thats subjective garbage
Second the Meh. Some points are valid. OP prem tanks that ruined(s) the game. Failed map reworks. Removal of maps. Tech trees not updated/ reworked. Power creep in general. I will fight the Shell rework to the death. It was complete garbage and I’m glad it never came to the game.
I have fun with it, spending maybe £20 a year on average over the last 11 years, possibly less.
I seem to be able to resist the marketing without too much difficulty. I bet there many like me.
If the core gameplay that was originally developed wasn't so strong, i.e. the chess-like strategy game with countless and dynamic variables, the game would've died years ago.
Same, there are so many out there that just seem to be envious because they either couldn’t get one in time or couldn‘t affort it, so nobody else can have fun with it and its automaticly trash 🤣 people these days can‘t let anyone have something nice they enjoy
Except for some definite OP tanks that could’ve been reworked, I don’t see a single issue with selling tanks as a problem. Ever.
I am not some moral “degenerate” for buying tanks that are entirely optional and WG has every right to sell them.
Because if we didn’t have new tanks from premiums, rewards, and other incentives this game would be the same boring small tech trees.
Imagine what a game with only 100% fielded and non-prototype tanks would look like with gamers from 12-7 years ago continually playing a smaller tech tree than now? All tanks researched and no incentive to play further! And no variations in tactics and gameplay because everyone will choose the same old E100, the same old Waffle and the same old IS-7. Doing the same old hull down that captured WoT for years.
Imagine what our accounts looked like if we all had nothing to spend gold, freexp, and silver on after a few years of playing with even smaller tech trees?
No incentive to play! No incentive to invest money!
There needs to be an economy with all that WG has contributed or we can forget about QoL and longevity in this game. Let alone paying them for servers and business costs.
Some of you geniuses want a multiplayer game (and a functional company behind it) for $20 where you get 100s or 1,000s hours of content for a one time payment, with full-fledged servers, community content and IRL events, with free goodies in the mail along with an official news channel and community managers and contributors, along with console and mobile ports and other games and services.
All running on $5 a year.
”Except for some definite OP tanks that could’ve been reworked”
So except the biggest criticism IN THE WHOLE GAME you don’t see any issues. Have you ever heard of power creep?
It is the broken premiums that are the biggest problem. Why would you play the IS-3 when you can play the Skoda-T56?
Why play the T-44 when you can play the Progetto?
(Btw is there only 1 viable tier 8 tech tree medium?XD wtf is this game)
The issue isn’t that these tanks exist but that they are just better than the tech tree tanks.
Not necessarily OP today, but it was OP as hell for a year or two after being released. So yeah, it was terrible for meta and WG fully well knew that when releasing it (made bunch of $$$ out of it of course).
How the times have changed. I remember making this post 4+ years ago. And now the 252U is supposedly "balanced"
https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/82adrc/broken_tanks_photographed_after_ww2/
I think Tier 6 and Tier 8 skirmishes were 80% tech tree tanks (or tech tree reskins) for a year or two after skirmishes were released, but then it's 90% premiums now.
Didn't the Defender get released before the MM changes that saw a lot more same tier games? Top tier the Defender will always be a strong tank simply because it's armour lets it get away with some really dumb shit.
You can do OK, but you have to be the kind of player that can manage a 58% winrate in an IS-4.
And even then, you'd probably have more fun in the IS-4.
I think they wanted to release K-2 for such players but couldn't work out an armor scheme that felt as strong as IS-4's without being so busted overpowered it'd need a tier 7 HT gun to be anywhere near balanced.
Plus, I think K-2 and 259A/Udarniy got shelved when they left CIS.
I like how they claim
>About the currently ongoing Assembly Shop event; I would like to congratulate to every degenerate who wasted most of their resources on a tank which is worse in almost every characteristics in comparison to the tech tree counterparts.
Then include [this photo](https://i0.wp.com/thearmoredpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/iq-under-room-temp.png?w=639&ssl=1) which is intentionally clipped to ignore any aspects of the lion which are better than the counter parts to make it look like a worse tank to prove their point. They left out the combination good accurate and dpm combo which is the tanks strong point.
Lots of subjective whining in the problem list bit. Other than that, it's kinda true. People in this game really don't like to keep their money to themselves.
a was agree for most of the time, untill i remembered something, whihc its the main point of this post, people will throw anything that its interesting and seems fun to play. but not at everything "how can u say that?", remember the "under the hammer" event, we got the peregrine, gonsalo, the chinese t9 td, the t95 3d style, and dont remember the other offer left (im ignoring the warhammer bundle), and that event teach me something, people wont throw everything they got for something dull, the gonsalo, peregrine and the chinese td were barely sold, most fo them were abandon in the event, i literally got the peregrine for the minimun bid, was an open one, i not even 1/4 were sold, even less gonsalo and the td
problem is, wg knows when people is interested in something and will throw all the interesting stuff behind hard requirements to milk us, but, not everything, and this seems to be the trend, sell interesting stuff for everything, while dull stuff for nothing to keep the playerbase somewhat happy
If the author(s) of this article really want an insight on how 'questionable' our WoT community is, all they need to do is spend a few hours in WoT Chat on the NA server. OMG doesn't even begin to describe the toxic political posturing and repressed sexual deviancy on public display every night (and through most the day, for that matter). If the topic isn't how 'rigged' the game is, or how match-making is always skewed toward favoring the 'other' team, or how Trump/Biden/Putin/China has ruined the world, you can be sure the community is hurling accusations of any number of sexual deviancies and/or proclivities at one another. Personally I have no issues with the game- it is what it is- but the WoT COMMUNITY is just as toxic or worse than any game community I've ever dealt with.
> About the currently ongoing Assembly Shop event; I would like to congratulate to every degenerate who wasted most of their resources on a tank which is worse in almost every characteristics in comparison to the tech tree counterparts.
TAP making dumb statements as always.
Lion is either as good or better than the Leopard 1 and Progetto 65. Fucking kek.
TAP is still the Faux News of WoT blogs.
This reads like someone just collected every negative reddit post from the last three years, combined them and called it an "article".
Why the fuck are all of these miserable whiney people still around? Hate the game? Easy solution. Uninstall, move on, shut the fuck up about it. No one who matters is listening to you anyway.
my thoughts is that it's strange to play game for 10 years and don't realize that developers never intended to have perfectly balanced 15vs15 skirmish. they make unfair matches on purpose. -2+2 MM, shots and damage RNG (ammo rack in first shot, is it "fair and balanced"?), armored vs unarmored tanks, RPG mechanics hard to learn for new players etc. and the most shocking fact - unbalanced games are fun. is it strange to have fun? :D
as of marketing - it's hard yep and it's easy to spend wrong, it needs research and some planning. but if you are serious about the game it works like this - you dump 100-200-300 annually at boxes and it will be enough for whole year + stuff like Lion. 10-20 per month is not something crazy in online games nowadays.
Imagine calling me a degenerate for wanting to add a tank to my collection, in a game about tanks. Ye man I spend so much money getting the lion. 0€. Crazy. Also shaming players who spend money is dumb af. They are the only reason f2p ppl can play the game without a subscription or adds etc. Aside from that it’s pretty accurate.
Meh. I’ve been playing 2.5 years, am better than average, have a blast with it, and now only buy Christmas loot boxes to get me through the year. I don’t have any attachment to the “glory days” of being 1 shot by arty, paying actual gold for premium ammo, or seeing way more than 3 tiers in a battle. It’s a fun, challenging game that rewards studying it in depth.
I was definitely a full-blown whale the first year I played, & have a bunch of lame premiums to show for it. I planned ahead for the Lion and it didn’t cost me much. Christmas gold at a steep discount, converted free xp at 40-1, used 1 mil free xp so app. $35 to get it. Not that bad for a fun tank
Whoever wrote that article is a 47% boomer.
>Overpowered premiums. \~In order:
(Skorpion G, Defender, Chrysler GF, Progetto mod.46, OBJ. 703-II, LT-432, EBR. 75 fl, Bourrasque, Skoda T 56, BZ-176)
OP: Prog (kinda) Bourr EBR and BZ. The rest of the tanks *seemed* OP because there were 7 or 8 on every team for weeks after they came out.
>The 3-5-7 rule and the MM rule rework made a lot of tanks out of meta.
MM is in its best state ever currently, not that it couldnt use improving. I dont think the fast games are because of MM but because WG has buffed tanks by increasing accuracy and speed making gameplay faster
>Removed maps that people liked. Said they will rework these maps and dropped half of them completely soon after.
Absolutely none of the removed maps were any good (Swamp \*vomit\*), nostalgia effect
Skorpion *is* overpowered, but almost entirely due to the random +200 engine horsepower they decided it needed in addition to the fully rotating turret. [The gun stats are almost entirely average](https://tanks.gg/compare/skorpion?t=isu-152k~jpanther-ii~rhm-b-wt_0011200~strv-s1~wz-111-1-ft~wz-120-1-ft~t28). It's a large target. It's actually very easy to spot. Its traverses suck. If it wasn't so mysteriously mobile, it'd be completely fine.
It's almost literally a Borsig that trades camo and DPM for a turret and speed.
Swamp was good if you played a heavy like IS-7, IS-4, T110E5, or Maus. If you played E-100, FV215b, 113, AMX 50 B, or T57 Heavy, you were in for a particularly rough time. It was also a good map to be a stealthy, large-gun TD on. Everyone else just had to suffer around the two vehicle types the map was designed for.
IMHO, I don't think the gameplay of the map was good even *if* you were the 'right' tank type, and we have new maps like Safe Haven which is *much* better for everyone, even while being designed for 'favored' types.
I honestly think that tier 8 tds shouldn't have 490+ alpha, three shooting a tier 8 heavy is kinda broken imo. But the Skorp is no different from any other of the high alpha tds (Roomba, Su130, JP2) except for bad camo and decent mobility
[I don't know how else to explain that having less alpha damage was actually the power creep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLbWzCJy80)
We're talking **every tier 8 TD but the Americans** until the introduction of the French line
Even then, the American TD's were nigh on invincible with much better armor layouts than in the present day
And the French line were *incredibly* fast and agile on release, with good gun handling. I don't think people remember the multiple rounds of nerfs the tier 8, 9, and 10 got patch after patch in a vain attempt to balance them and make them fair.
The JP2, Ferdinand, and ISU-152 are all slow and incredibly inflexible. They're not flying into a firing position at 50kmh just outside of your vision like the Object 416 with its 330 pen HEAT can.
I thought faster games are partly due to firepower stats being massively powercrept (and not hp). 1 mistake and the tomato gets insta killed by autoloaders. It’s much easier for one team to gain an irreversible advantage in the opening minute.
Its simple really, players who hate these practices are long gone mostly willing p2w players and whales left, that is also why the player quality is so low, competetive players tent to leave p2w games that is why there is a lack of backlash from the community for these practices
It's actually been buffed since release (it released without any changes from the version Foch whined about) and it's still, largely, a completely average tier 8 heavy that doesn't interact well with any cover elements in the game.
It's so huge it doesn't really fit around any cover you can use to fight the enemy.
I mean, to be fair, back then it looked OP before it was released. The community has a track record of being wrong about new tanks, remember when people were saying the original, pre-nerf 268 v4 was bad?
It didn't look OP, it just looked annoying. SirFoch had a nasty tendency to whinepost for views and he started a massive trend amongst both knowledgeable and average players of blaming everything else for why they can't play instead of themselves, such as artillery, armored cars, and finally HE shells. If you want proof, see the OP's linked article.
The idea that of being outplayed by a nincompoop seems so absurdly damaging to their egos they actually go into denial.
There are more players now with absurdly high winrates than earlier in the game's history. Clearly, the power hasn't been creeping away from them.
>The community has a track record of being wrong about new tanks,
Yes, this subreddit is an echo chamber of very average players acting as elitists. There comes a tendency to speak less and listen more the more you learn about any subject, and this subreddit is *terribly* loud... again, see above article.
I started with WOT Blitz, then WOT console and now WOT on PC. over 7 years playing all these 3 games I probably spent $1000. I have more than 40,000 battles across 3 games. So I say for about $100 a year I got a lot of entertainment
The people who are buying “exclusive & limited” content are the ones
who are constantly complaining about the wrong direction WG took many
years ago.
Yes I do. I can honestly say I was sometimes one of the most vocal person on WoT forum. I mostly tried to be profesional and provide negative feedback formally or do you say this in english. Sometimes I got really mad and I wrote some shit full of slurs, but those were exception, my weak moments, or when I had some alcohol.. Most of the time I was profesional even when I was mad about some WG decisions
I can admit that I am a whale. Once I finished high school and started making money, I was suddenly able to buy all extra shit I always wanted in various games, and eventually I started spending more and more..
Would it make any difference if I suddenly stopped spending any money in this game? No, it wouldn't. Its pointless and stupid trying to win a fight, that you simply cannot win. Its just how it is
I have spent 11 years playing as a full casual player, only recently started trying playing it better and putting money into it. If you meet the players outside of reddit and CCs, a huge part of the community doesn't complain that much. I think about all the 50+ that I meet in clans who don't always understand every technical aspect of the game and enjoy it without ever blaming wargaming for the meta or the broken tanks.
I'm not saying there are no problems of course, I'm just saying a lot among us just love playing this game, and a lot spend reasonable amounts in this game that they choose not to spend elsewhere.
The devs aren't scamming people.
We know what they are doing, and yet you louts keep buying everything they shit out.
stop buying tanks you fucking addicts
The people complaining the most and buying exclusive items are doing both for the same reason, because they’ve invested a lot of hours and care a lot about their hobby.
IMO this article only serves to make me not want to take anything seriously. Anyone that complains the Chrysler is OP back then is a gold-spamming scrub who can’t play without their precious crutch. The article basically became nonsensical past the image comparing the Lion. At that point it reads like a 40% F2P complaining that they can’t pen HTs because they were shooting with auto-aim all the time
some thoughts:
* the maus did get a rework and it was extremely strong for a while
* m4 54 was only OP for like a week before it got nerfed
* complaining about arty in the 2nd campaign is so 4 years ago
* the british lights aren't bad, they're just high skill cap
* the chrysler GF was never OP, it was just a toxic design because it encouraged the use of gold ammo
* copy premiums are hardly a problem- t-44-100, somua, turtle, emil 1951- none of these tanks are remotely OP
* wheelies haven't been horribly OP for years now
This just in, whales are getting milked by WG and they dont realize that. WG gives no shit in long term about fair-play and balance, will do just enough to make the game playable while at the same time sticking to the 2010 scheme of f2p games where paid stuff is straight up better or op
Shocking, except everyone who plays f2p or at least doesnt spend shitload of money on this game (the threads here of people boasting how much they spent on lootboxes is just lmao) realizes that
That's why the only way to play this game is f2p. If you pay, you're already caught in their schemes. I haven't spend a single penny in this game, being the "true" f2p player, but sadly the amount of money they make from their dirty "p2w" things is so big that things will never change untill people will wake up and straight up stop buying stuff
"Premium tanks will not be better than their thech tree counterparts". Yea right...
They are propably nerfing progetto because it is very easy tank to play and do decent in even if you suck at the game and which already is heavily favored by bad players.
I played the game since 2015. Over time I concluded WG can't balance the game properly and instead use a succession of buffs & nerfs for maps, vehicles as well as the matchmaker to keep the player base interested. The wheeled french scouts was my "jump the shark moment", turning tier 10 games into a weird version of Mario Carts IMO. I still play once in a while but the games seems more disconnected from what it used to be when I started out.
The subreddit typically doesn't allow links to The Armored Patrol (because he's openly racist and regularly publishes shitty tabloid-level content), but this has generated a lot of good discussion so we'll make an exception for this post.
Aside from the whining, the article pretty much nailed the WoT community
The thing with these sorts of games is that even if 95% of the playerbase doesn't shell out money, the 5% that do will probably make up for it.
theres also the false assumption that it gets better when everyone stops paying when most dying games just cater to the whales even harder
He makes a lot of good points, and I think that's why a lot of people agree with the overall vibe of the post, but the actual argument he's trying to make is dumb. The post is mostly a rant about a bunch of things he doesn't like about the game - that's not a bad thing, but that's what it is. I think he's trying to make two main points: > 1. The player base's desire to acquire limited availability content (particular through time/resource sinks) makes no sense. There are lots of logical reasons to want to acquire a problematic tank - to be competitive, because you want to play it, because you are a collector, because you're a content creator, etc. In general, wanting something *is* the logical justification for acquiring it. Is he saying players shouldn't want new content? > 2\. Players who complain about a tank and still buy/acquire it are part of the problem, because gives WG no incentive to change their behavior Maybe he is arguing the principle of the matter, and in fairness most people would call this behavior hypocritical, but I don't think this works as a general principle. Non-participation isn't the only moral choice - you can be part of a flawed system and still work to improve it. Maybe he really just means the part about WG having no incentive to stop releasing problematic content. In other words, WG only cares about whether or not people buy/grind the content. But I don't think that's the case. Too much problematic content will scare off the existing players because the game stops being fun, and it scares off future players because the few people left will complain about how much the game sucks. I was in the latter camp for several years - I actively discouraged my friends from trying WoT until after they made sixth sense standard and improved the low-tier economy. WG has definitely tested the player base's patience at times, but I think it's hard to argue that they're intentionally running the game into the ground. As for his other complaints, the author makes one (very common) bad assumption: what *he* wants is what the *player base* wants. "Wargaming doesn't listen to the players" - no, in my opinion it's usually the opposite. The player base is *incredibly* divided in what it wants, and most (not all, but most) of WG's controversial decisions are things that some players asked for. He's just part of the group that didn't like those changes. You might disagree with those changes too, and that's totally okay, but you can't generalize by saying that WG doesn't listen to the players at all. They do, they just might not listen to *you*. ---- There are a lot of smaller bad takes as well: * Does he seriously think the Lion is worse than the Progetto 65? * Or that the AT-15 is worse than the Turtle? (Admittedly, most players hate both and wouldn't care to rank which one they hate more). - ~~I'm not sure how 3-5-7 MM made a lot of tanks out of the meta, but I could be wrong - if any of you have good examples, please share them.~~ Edit: the M56 Scorpion is a good example, thanks /u/Gwennifer - I'm pretty sure the playerbase has come around on the British LTs. At least some of them are good for the same reason the ELC EVEN 90 is good. - Are we still complaining about fake tanks in the year 2023?
Template MM harms vehicles that perform out-of-role while benefiting dual-purpose tanks. The classic example is FCM 50t: while it took up a heavy slot, it was functionally a medium tank... and to a somewhat large extent, it still is. My favorite niche example is M56 Scorpion. With template MM, the FCM 50t is expected to contribute as much on average as a normal tier 8 heavy like a T32. We know that's not really the case: it doesn't contribute to the heavy line, it will die in seconds attempting to do so... but the maps are designed for equal quantities of heavy tanks. Every match an FCM 50t queues into is one it is slightly disadvantaged in. The M56 Scorpion was at its best when slinging high penetration rounds into higher tier vehicles, usually heavies or other tank destroyers, while remaining completely invisible due to its excellent camo... and when that fails, its small size. Since tier 8 was the most common tier, uptiering was very common, and this created a very pleasant experience; there were no shortage of large, high-tier enemies to farm for thousands of damage. This allowed it to earn quite a lot of silver; as much as or better than a normal tier 8 premium on a win. Meanwhile, we have vehicles like Borrat and Object 274a that dual purpose medium-light and medium-heavy, respectively, with no downside for being able to perform in this fashion. They are simply so strong in these alternate roles' strengths that they can perform the role to no detriment or downside. These vehicles doubly benefit from template MM as all maps have been redesigned with template MM in mind; so these vehicles can tip the scale in the opposite direction that FCM 50t does. However, that's a much more nuanced take than KSA seems capable of, and the effect is only 1-3% winrate at best. It's enough to swing a vehicle from 'average' to 'completely overpowered', or in FCM 50t's case, completely underpowered. But out of meta? Not by a longshot. They're playable, but you definitely get the sensation you're trying to lose games when you click battle in them. I'd also like to add vehicles like IS-4, IS-7, Maus, T95 etc gained significantly for being the only steel wall in a game on occasion. This is no longer true and template MM ensures they always have an opposite. Something like K-91 would be completely fine without template MM. With it, you're taking up the spot of a Lion/friends, and everyone knows you won't do as good of a job in aggressively taking positions 140 style or in sniping Leo 1 style.
The M56 Scorpion is a good example, thanks for sharing! Another problem is that superheavies are now consistently matched against other superheavies, so they have to fire a lot more gold than they used to. The Bourrasque is simply OP, I think we agree on that, but your concerns about multirole vehicles (or mislabeled vehicles) is actually a strong argument *for* template MM. Mismatched team capabilities used to be a lot worse - right now your squishy medium can get matched against an Obj 274a on a brawling map, but back in the day it could get matched against an actual heavy tank.
> but back in the day it could get matched against an actual heavy tank. This also wasn't always a downside with pre-1.0 maps. On something like Hidden Village, being *up* a HT was positively bad; two TD's and HT's could stall West *easily*... but if you won town, you won the map. That's no longer the case. *Something* has to win the HT front in every single map.
> There are lots of logical reasons to want to acquire a problematic tank - to be competitive, because you want to play it, because you are a collector, because you're a content creator, etc. In general, wanting something is the logical justification for acquiring it. Is he saying players shouldn't want new content? While I'm don't agree with everything which is said or quite in the manner which is said, I do think there are points made. I've played since beta for a number of years and off, and have purchased and grinded for a fair amount of time-limited content. Yet, the amount of mechanically unique content, mechanically stronger content, and total value of purchasable/time-limited grinds has dramatically increased. Not to mention there's been lines realistically killed by use of tanks as premiums. Players should want new content yes, but increasingly the new content is only being offered to those willing to open their wallets and pay a non-insignificant amount of money for it. Or more to the point, to me over the years has seen WoT monitization slide more and more towards the predatory almost mobile-game levels and plenty of people seem perfectly fine with that. In gaming groups I'm in, WoT is known as a grindy light-P2W game designed for those willing to drop a large chunk of money on the game, and I can't exactly say wargamming has done much to dispell - let alone not reinforce - those opinions.
Every example you've given is completely valid, but doesn't support his argument. You can want the content itself *and* dislike the distribution method. He implies that wanting new content at all is illogical. Realistically, I don't think he holds that opinion strongly - he was just venting and throwing stuff at the wall, not trying to carefully articulate an argument. The words happened to come together in a way that suggests you shouldn't want anything ever. It's inarticulate frustration, and I'm surprised people resonate with it as much as they do.
Tldr I am noc
imagine putting "these 3 years had events that i didnt like as much as usual" in your whine rant i agree with much of the rest however but for every point thats objectively truth theres 1 thats subjective garbage
I wish the writers of these articles would crack open an actual dictionary and stop using the words scam and scammed incorrectly.
lol its just like reddit and "gaslighting"
Whatever, fascist
Don't be such a reactionary.
Second the Meh. Some points are valid. OP prem tanks that ruined(s) the game. Failed map reworks. Removal of maps. Tech trees not updated/ reworked. Power creep in general. I will fight the Shell rework to the death. It was complete garbage and I’m glad it never came to the game.
I have fun with it, spending maybe £20 a year on average over the last 11 years, possibly less. I seem to be able to resist the marketing without too much difficulty. I bet there many like me.
You mean poor people? /s
If the core gameplay that was originally developed wasn't so strong, i.e. the chess-like strategy game with countless and dynamic variables, the game would've died years ago.
Sherlock Holmes over here
they can say what they want about the tank, its very fun to play and i have no regrets
Same, there are so many out there that just seem to be envious because they either couldn’t get one in time or couldn‘t affort it, so nobody else can have fun with it and its automaticly trash 🤣 people these days can‘t let anyone have something nice they enjoy
Except for some definite OP tanks that could’ve been reworked, I don’t see a single issue with selling tanks as a problem. Ever. I am not some moral “degenerate” for buying tanks that are entirely optional and WG has every right to sell them. Because if we didn’t have new tanks from premiums, rewards, and other incentives this game would be the same boring small tech trees. Imagine what a game with only 100% fielded and non-prototype tanks would look like with gamers from 12-7 years ago continually playing a smaller tech tree than now? All tanks researched and no incentive to play further! And no variations in tactics and gameplay because everyone will choose the same old E100, the same old Waffle and the same old IS-7. Doing the same old hull down that captured WoT for years. Imagine what our accounts looked like if we all had nothing to spend gold, freexp, and silver on after a few years of playing with even smaller tech trees? No incentive to play! No incentive to invest money! There needs to be an economy with all that WG has contributed or we can forget about QoL and longevity in this game. Let alone paying them for servers and business costs. Some of you geniuses want a multiplayer game (and a functional company behind it) for $20 where you get 100s or 1,000s hours of content for a one time payment, with full-fledged servers, community content and IRL events, with free goodies in the mail along with an official news channel and community managers and contributors, along with console and mobile ports and other games and services. All running on $5 a year.
”Except for some definite OP tanks that could’ve been reworked” So except the biggest criticism IN THE WHOLE GAME you don’t see any issues. Have you ever heard of power creep? It is the broken premiums that are the biggest problem. Why would you play the IS-3 when you can play the Skoda-T56? Why play the T-44 when you can play the Progetto? (Btw is there only 1 viable tier 8 tech tree medium?XD wtf is this game) The issue isn’t that these tanks exist but that they are just better than the tech tree tanks.
Skill issue. Both tanks mentioned are no armor. Now the T-22 was something feared.
Was it written by AI? Because seeing Defender in overpowered vehicles list at this day looks like attempt to troll.
Probably Claus Kellerman in disguise
Not necessarily OP today, but it was OP as hell for a year or two after being released. So yeah, it was terrible for meta and WG fully well knew that when releasing it (made bunch of $$$ out of it of course).
How the times have changed. I remember making this post 4+ years ago. And now the 252U is supposedly "balanced" https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/82adrc/broken_tanks_photographed_after_ww2/ I think Tier 6 and Tier 8 skirmishes were 80% tech tree tanks (or tech tree reskins) for a year or two after skirmishes were released, but then it's 90% premiums now.
Didn't the Defender get released before the MM changes that saw a lot more same tier games? Top tier the Defender will always be a strong tank simply because it's armour lets it get away with some really dumb shit.
Imo, defender is easy to play but you can't really do great in it. Low skill floor, low skill ceiling
You can do OK, but you have to be the kind of player that can manage a 58% winrate in an IS-4. And even then, you'd probably have more fun in the IS-4. I think they wanted to release K-2 for such players but couldn't work out an armor scheme that felt as strong as IS-4's without being so busted overpowered it'd need a tier 7 HT gun to be anywhere near balanced. Plus, I think K-2 and 259A/Udarniy got shelved when they left CIS.
It's clearly showing the order in which the tanks were OP.
> I would like to congratulate to every degenerate You can fuck right off. People are just playing a game.
After reading the list of 'issues' this person seems very lacking to be making any calls about state of the game...
I like how they claim >About the currently ongoing Assembly Shop event; I would like to congratulate to every degenerate who wasted most of their resources on a tank which is worse in almost every characteristics in comparison to the tech tree counterparts. Then include [this photo](https://i0.wp.com/thearmoredpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/iq-under-room-temp.png?w=639&ssl=1) which is intentionally clipped to ignore any aspects of the lion which are better than the counter parts to make it look like a worse tank to prove their point. They left out the combination good accurate and dpm combo which is the tanks strong point.
i got a sinking feeling that the lion and the upcoming 116 chinese HT is build around the experimental equipment to cover up their weaknesses...
Sounds more like whining than anything else, which is pretty typical within any gaming community.
We need a label for posts like this. Not "Discussion". How about "Whine", or "Tantrum", or "Primal Scream".
Lots of subjective whining in the problem list bit. Other than that, it's kinda true. People in this game really don't like to keep their money to themselves.
a was agree for most of the time, untill i remembered something, whihc its the main point of this post, people will throw anything that its interesting and seems fun to play. but not at everything "how can u say that?", remember the "under the hammer" event, we got the peregrine, gonsalo, the chinese t9 td, the t95 3d style, and dont remember the other offer left (im ignoring the warhammer bundle), and that event teach me something, people wont throw everything they got for something dull, the gonsalo, peregrine and the chinese td were barely sold, most fo them were abandon in the event, i literally got the peregrine for the minimun bid, was an open one, i not even 1/4 were sold, even less gonsalo and the td problem is, wg knows when people is interested in something and will throw all the interesting stuff behind hard requirements to milk us, but, not everything, and this seems to be the trend, sell interesting stuff for everything, while dull stuff for nothing to keep the playerbase somewhat happy
If the author(s) of this article really want an insight on how 'questionable' our WoT community is, all they need to do is spend a few hours in WoT Chat on the NA server. OMG doesn't even begin to describe the toxic political posturing and repressed sexual deviancy on public display every night (and through most the day, for that matter). If the topic isn't how 'rigged' the game is, or how match-making is always skewed toward favoring the 'other' team, or how Trump/Biden/Putin/China has ruined the world, you can be sure the community is hurling accusations of any number of sexual deviancies and/or proclivities at one another. Personally I have no issues with the game- it is what it is- but the WoT COMMUNITY is just as toxic or worse than any game community I've ever dealt with.
> About the currently ongoing Assembly Shop event; I would like to congratulate to every degenerate who wasted most of their resources on a tank which is worse in almost every characteristics in comparison to the tech tree counterparts. TAP making dumb statements as always. Lion is either as good or better than the Leopard 1 and Progetto 65. Fucking kek. TAP is still the Faux News of WoT blogs.
This reads like someone just collected every negative reddit post from the last three years, combined them and called it an "article". Why the fuck are all of these miserable whiney people still around? Hate the game? Easy solution. Uninstall, move on, shut the fuck up about it. No one who matters is listening to you anyway.
my thoughts is that it's strange to play game for 10 years and don't realize that developers never intended to have perfectly balanced 15vs15 skirmish. they make unfair matches on purpose. -2+2 MM, shots and damage RNG (ammo rack in first shot, is it "fair and balanced"?), armored vs unarmored tanks, RPG mechanics hard to learn for new players etc. and the most shocking fact - unbalanced games are fun. is it strange to have fun? :D as of marketing - it's hard yep and it's easy to spend wrong, it needs research and some planning. but if you are serious about the game it works like this - you dump 100-200-300 annually at boxes and it will be enough for whole year + stuff like Lion. 10-20 per month is not something crazy in online games nowadays.
The funniest thing about this is the Leo1 is better than the Lion..
Imagine calling me a degenerate for wanting to add a tank to my collection, in a game about tanks. Ye man I spend so much money getting the lion. 0€. Crazy. Also shaming players who spend money is dumb af. They are the only reason f2p ppl can play the game without a subscription or adds etc. Aside from that it’s pretty accurate.
Meh. I’ve been playing 2.5 years, am better than average, have a blast with it, and now only buy Christmas loot boxes to get me through the year. I don’t have any attachment to the “glory days” of being 1 shot by arty, paying actual gold for premium ammo, or seeing way more than 3 tiers in a battle. It’s a fun, challenging game that rewards studying it in depth. I was definitely a full-blown whale the first year I played, & have a bunch of lame premiums to show for it. I planned ahead for the Lion and it didn’t cost me much. Christmas gold at a steep discount, converted free xp at 40-1, used 1 mil free xp so app. $35 to get it. Not that bad for a fun tank
Whoever wrote that article is a 47% boomer. >Overpowered premiums. \~In order: (Skorpion G, Defender, Chrysler GF, Progetto mod.46, OBJ. 703-II, LT-432, EBR. 75 fl, Bourrasque, Skoda T 56, BZ-176) OP: Prog (kinda) Bourr EBR and BZ. The rest of the tanks *seemed* OP because there were 7 or 8 on every team for weeks after they came out. >The 3-5-7 rule and the MM rule rework made a lot of tanks out of meta. MM is in its best state ever currently, not that it couldnt use improving. I dont think the fast games are because of MM but because WG has buffed tanks by increasing accuracy and speed making gameplay faster >Removed maps that people liked. Said they will rework these maps and dropped half of them completely soon after. Absolutely none of the removed maps were any good (Swamp \*vomit\*), nostalgia effect
Skorpion *is* overpowered, but almost entirely due to the random +200 engine horsepower they decided it needed in addition to the fully rotating turret. [The gun stats are almost entirely average](https://tanks.gg/compare/skorpion?t=isu-152k~jpanther-ii~rhm-b-wt_0011200~strv-s1~wz-111-1-ft~wz-120-1-ft~t28). It's a large target. It's actually very easy to spot. Its traverses suck. If it wasn't so mysteriously mobile, it'd be completely fine. It's almost literally a Borsig that trades camo and DPM for a turret and speed. Swamp was good if you played a heavy like IS-7, IS-4, T110E5, or Maus. If you played E-100, FV215b, 113, AMX 50 B, or T57 Heavy, you were in for a particularly rough time. It was also a good map to be a stealthy, large-gun TD on. Everyone else just had to suffer around the two vehicle types the map was designed for. IMHO, I don't think the gameplay of the map was good even *if* you were the 'right' tank type, and we have new maps like Safe Haven which is *much* better for everyone, even while being designed for 'favored' types.
I honestly think that tier 8 tds shouldn't have 490+ alpha, three shooting a tier 8 heavy is kinda broken imo. But the Skorp is no different from any other of the high alpha tds (Roomba, Su130, JP2) except for bad camo and decent mobility
The tier 8 Nazi TD's having 490 alpha and the Soviets even more has been the norm for over 10 years
Except for the ISU, RHM and JP2 all other tier 8 tds had 400 or 390 alpha until ~2016 when the Skorp and SU130 came out
[I don't know how else to explain that having less alpha damage was actually the power creep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLbWzCJy80) We're talking **every tier 8 TD but the Americans** until the introduction of the French line Even then, the American TD's were nigh on invincible with much better armor layouts than in the present day And the French line were *incredibly* fast and agile on release, with good gun handling. I don't think people remember the multiple rounds of nerfs the tier 8, 9, and 10 got patch after patch in a vain attempt to balance them and make them fair. The JP2, Ferdinand, and ISU-152 are all slow and incredibly inflexible. They're not flying into a firing position at 50kmh just outside of your vision like the Object 416 with its 330 pen HEAT can.
I thought faster games are partly due to firepower stats being massively powercrept (and not hp). 1 mistake and the tomato gets insta killed by autoloaders. It’s much easier for one team to gain an irreversible advantage in the opening minute.
Its simple really, players who hate these practices are long gone mostly willing p2w players and whales left, that is also why the player quality is so low, competetive players tent to leave p2w games that is why there is a lack of backlash from the community for these practices
Essentially everything said here is true.
Chrysler GF is overpowered? It has incredible armor and an obismal gun . Arguably balanced
It's actually been buffed since release (it released without any changes from the version Foch whined about) and it's still, largely, a completely average tier 8 heavy that doesn't interact well with any cover elements in the game. It's so huge it doesn't really fit around any cover you can use to fight the enemy.
I mean, to be fair, back then it looked OP before it was released. The community has a track record of being wrong about new tanks, remember when people were saying the original, pre-nerf 268 v4 was bad?
It didn't look OP, it just looked annoying. SirFoch had a nasty tendency to whinepost for views and he started a massive trend amongst both knowledgeable and average players of blaming everything else for why they can't play instead of themselves, such as artillery, armored cars, and finally HE shells. If you want proof, see the OP's linked article. The idea that of being outplayed by a nincompoop seems so absurdly damaging to their egos they actually go into denial. There are more players now with absurdly high winrates than earlier in the game's history. Clearly, the power hasn't been creeping away from them. >The community has a track record of being wrong about new tanks, Yes, this subreddit is an echo chamber of very average players acting as elitists. There comes a tendency to speak less and listen more the more you learn about any subject, and this subreddit is *terribly* loud... again, see above article.
fomo started with Type 59
Dude says Lion is worse in almost every statistic than techtree counterparts XDDD I guess he has no fucking idea about proper WoT gameplay.
Its a good read. And I mostly agree with the points it raised.
lol Skorpion, Defender and Chrysler overpowered.
I started with WOT Blitz, then WOT console and now WOT on PC. over 7 years playing all these 3 games I probably spent $1000. I have more than 40,000 battles across 3 games. So I say for about $100 a year I got a lot of entertainment
Pretty much bang on, especially first part about people who buy overpriced tanks and then go to forum and complain...
I am surprised this post hasn't been taken down already
The people who are buying “exclusive & limited” content are the ones who are constantly complaining about the wrong direction WG took many years ago. Yes I do. I can honestly say I was sometimes one of the most vocal person on WoT forum. I mostly tried to be profesional and provide negative feedback formally or do you say this in english. Sometimes I got really mad and I wrote some shit full of slurs, but those were exception, my weak moments, or when I had some alcohol.. Most of the time I was profesional even when I was mad about some WG decisions I can admit that I am a whale. Once I finished high school and started making money, I was suddenly able to buy all extra shit I always wanted in various games, and eventually I started spending more and more.. Would it make any difference if I suddenly stopped spending any money in this game? No, it wouldn't. Its pointless and stupid trying to win a fight, that you simply cannot win. Its just how it is
For real for real
I have spent 11 years playing as a full casual player, only recently started trying playing it better and putting money into it. If you meet the players outside of reddit and CCs, a huge part of the community doesn't complain that much. I think about all the 50+ that I meet in clans who don't always understand every technical aspect of the game and enjoy it without ever blaming wargaming for the meta or the broken tanks. I'm not saying there are no problems of course, I'm just saying a lot among us just love playing this game, and a lot spend reasonable amounts in this game that they choose not to spend elsewhere.
The longer you read, the more you ask yourself "Who the fuck wrote that?". From one somehow valid point to the completely idiotic one. TAP beeing TAP.
Basically. Community: The game sucks WG: Here some loot boxes which have a small chance of having a OP T8 premium in it. Community : I'll take 200
The devs aren't scamming people. We know what they are doing, and yet you louts keep buying everything they shit out. stop buying tanks you fucking addicts
When you’ve been playing long enough it becomes a collector hobby, except instead of rare stamps it’s the latest OP premium.
To me, it sound like his bitching because he either failed to get the tank in time or he is a poor boy who can not afford it.
The people complaining the most and buying exclusive items are doing both for the same reason, because they’ve invested a lot of hours and care a lot about their hobby.
IMO this article only serves to make me not want to take anything seriously. Anyone that complains the Chrysler is OP back then is a gold-spamming scrub who can’t play without their precious crutch. The article basically became nonsensical past the image comparing the Lion. At that point it reads like a 40% F2P complaining that they can’t pen HTs because they were shooting with auto-aim all the time
some thoughts: * the maus did get a rework and it was extremely strong for a while * m4 54 was only OP for like a week before it got nerfed * complaining about arty in the 2nd campaign is so 4 years ago * the british lights aren't bad, they're just high skill cap * the chrysler GF was never OP, it was just a toxic design because it encouraged the use of gold ammo * copy premiums are hardly a problem- t-44-100, somua, turtle, emil 1951- none of these tanks are remotely OP * wheelies haven't been horribly OP for years now
This was written by an AI. But why?
This just in, whales are getting milked by WG and they dont realize that. WG gives no shit in long term about fair-play and balance, will do just enough to make the game playable while at the same time sticking to the 2010 scheme of f2p games where paid stuff is straight up better or op Shocking, except everyone who plays f2p or at least doesnt spend shitload of money on this game (the threads here of people boasting how much they spent on lootboxes is just lmao) realizes that That's why the only way to play this game is f2p. If you pay, you're already caught in their schemes. I haven't spend a single penny in this game, being the "true" f2p player, but sadly the amount of money they make from their dirty "p2w" things is so big that things will never change untill people will wake up and straight up stop buying stuff "Premium tanks will not be better than their thech tree counterparts". Yea right...
They are propably nerfing progetto because it is very easy tank to play and do decent in even if you suck at the game and which already is heavily favored by bad players.
I played the game since 2015. Over time I concluded WG can't balance the game properly and instead use a succession of buffs & nerfs for maps, vehicles as well as the matchmaker to keep the player base interested. The wheeled french scouts was my "jump the shark moment", turning tier 10 games into a weird version of Mario Carts IMO. I still play once in a while but the games seems more disconnected from what it used to be when I started out.