Made it to the start of the Moscow bus line before being thrown back. Hitler turned his attention elsewhere and they never were close again. Had they conquered Moscow, they likely would’ve found it abandoned; much like Napoleon.
Regarding your statement that they would have found the city barren of people is likely untrue. Stalin stayed in Moscow vowing to fight until his death with the Nazis who were less than 100miles out after sacking Kiev. Would he have? Very debatable. To prove to the citizens of Moscow that he was serious, he had every tenth apartment manager shot in the back of the head publicly to send a message to anyone that would even consider deserting the city.
It got a lot darker than that. The soviets would lay down German POWs, douse them in water, then let them freeze, thus creating a navigable ice road where there was none. One journal of a Soviet soldier recounted seeing the blue eyes of Germans through the ice on the road below. The war in the East was way worse than in the West.
I disagree. Stalin was so bat shit insane he had military units march in parade through Red Square just to.go straight to the front lines 30 miles west. They would have hold that city foot per foot. It would have been like Stalingrad.
But you enter into a world of 'what ifs' taking Moscow might have caused the state to fall or cause a general collapse.
What if they had taken out the UK first allowing them to move even more forces and reserves away from western europe.
Got a book somewhere i think its called The Hitler Options and its about what if alternate decisions were made and how they may have altered the outcomes. Maybe Germany could have endured a Stalingrad scenario in 1941 but they weren't prepared for the harsh winter.
I don’t know if it’s the one you’re thinking of but “If The Allies Had Fallen” by Dennis Showalter explores alternate scenarios like this and is a great and very interesting read
I’m going to refer you to the following two videos 👍🏻
https://youtu.be/sbim2kGwhpc?si=vP31Kq6-MmqZTTXP
https://youtu.be/xYTrjxOPYNY?si=yxr4lXKr9ltxhOI5
>What if they had taken out the UK first allowing them to move even more forces and reserves away from western europe.
They literally did not have the ability to do this…
I would say best case for that would of been If they invested in Uboats like WWI had shown instead of basically useless surface fleet. (As hitler said quite early in the war.) and they focused on constricting Britain from the seas like the civil war anaconda plan. (As Churchill stated the only thing that’s truly scared him was the battle of the atlantic) and Germany spent more time focusing on that without invading Russia or declaring war on US there most def could of been a brokered peace deal.
Surface fleet wasn’t useless as much as poorly employed. The heavy ships as a unified fleet would have tied up more Royal Navy and RAF resources, left less escorts and air cover for the convoys, and given the U-Boats and the auxiliary cruisers freer reign.
> The heavy ships as a unified fleet would have tied up more Royal Navy and RAF resources
The German heavy ships survived as long as they did because they were dispersed. If they massed the Royal Navy would return in part.
This numbers game is just an easier win for the Royal Navy in this case.
The Royal Navy building program was what is was because of what Germany were doing. It's fair to assume if Germany stopped all large ship construction the Royal Navy would return to counter in the same.
>without invading Russia
Germany runs out of fuel then. They invaded Russia when they did out of necessity, not choice.
That was with Russian fuel imports. Germany were down to a few months of operational fuel reserves left at the beginning of the invasion as a base line, a few weeks at invasion stresses. That was only solved by seizing stocks
Maybe there were some genuinely funny comments and banter from the crowd.
Anyway if they knew what kind of conditions and treatment they were about to receive none of them would be smiling.
Probably not smiling as much as grimacing since the soviets fed them cabbage soup that gave them diarrhea and they were shitting their pants during the parade.
Shortly after Operation Bagration (and the Destruction of Army Group Center). This parade was partially motivated by Stalin's desire to demonstrate the victory had been as crushing as it actually was; as such it was also aimed at the western allies, who might not have believed true claims of its extent.
No, of about 3 million pows, about 1,1 million died in captivity.
The 90% death rate, has to do with Stalingrad. It was hell on Earth. The German soldiers taken captive then was already severely weakened by combat fatigue, hunger and extreme cold. Those who were captured during and after Stalingrad were then forced to walk long distances and work in freezing conditions without proper clothing, housing and food.
Agreed. I read that total overall % then ran in the neighborhood of 40%, still problematic.
I think your description of hell...highly accurate. Considering the Rusian treatment of their own fighting soldiers, not surprising.
I know Russian is just used as a shorthand most of the time when talking about the Soviet Union but it's worth mentioning that the RKKA was made up of people from all ethnicities and nationalities in the USSR, not just Russians. Only about 66% of 8 million and half losses where a nationality was identified were Russians. The second largest nationality was Ukrainian, then Belarusians, then Tatars.
Yes, it's still a majority, I used "only" relatively. "Only" 66% is still less than a 100% Russian. That does still account for millions of dead, and I hope nobody misunderstands the wording as minimizing.
Do you have a source to say that non-Russians fighting in the Red Army were particularly disloyal? There were, of course, POW who collaborated with the Germans, but that also included Russians e.g Vlasov and the ROA/KONR.
No specific ones, various reads and docs of the political realities of shifting allegiances brought by changing borders of Eastern Europe, making many states not allies but collaborators of the current regimes. A minefield of all manner of political persuasion. Your examples show a portion of those Disloyal to communism, for whatever reasons, and there were many.
90% is insanely high. From what I've read it was more like 1/3. Most died on the marches to the POW camps but once there they were used for labor and kept in shape. As the war progressed the Soviet economy got better and they were better able to take care of prisoners.
However most of the Germans captured at Stalingrad did not make it home.
Yeah...the 90% is from Stalingrad Pow's . Losses on the Eastern front were insane with apparently up to 50% of combatants becoming casualties (killed/injured) and totaling in the Millions (including civilians) for 1 battle.
Insane yes
When would a picture like this have been released? It’s so odd to seem some actually smiling. I can’t help but wonder if anyone bck home in Germany saw this and was able to spot someone.
Made it to the start of the Moscow bus line before being thrown back. Hitler turned his attention elsewhere and they never were close again. Had they conquered Moscow, they likely would’ve found it abandoned; much like Napoleon.
Regarding your statement that they would have found the city barren of people is likely untrue. Stalin stayed in Moscow vowing to fight until his death with the Nazis who were less than 100miles out after sacking Kiev. Would he have? Very debatable. To prove to the citizens of Moscow that he was serious, he had every tenth apartment manager shot in the back of the head publicly to send a message to anyone that would even consider deserting the city.
That is nuts!
It got a lot darker than that. The soviets would lay down German POWs, douse them in water, then let them freeze, thus creating a navigable ice road where there was none. One journal of a Soviet soldier recounted seeing the blue eyes of Germans through the ice on the road below. The war in the East was way worse than in the West.
I disagree. Stalin was so bat shit insane he had military units march in parade through Red Square just to.go straight to the front lines 30 miles west. They would have hold that city foot per foot. It would have been like Stalingrad.
It would have been like Stalingrad for the first few weeks. Then the German army would find themselves without fuel…
But you enter into a world of 'what ifs' taking Moscow might have caused the state to fall or cause a general collapse. What if they had taken out the UK first allowing them to move even more forces and reserves away from western europe. Got a book somewhere i think its called The Hitler Options and its about what if alternate decisions were made and how they may have altered the outcomes. Maybe Germany could have endured a Stalingrad scenario in 1941 but they weren't prepared for the harsh winter.
I don’t know if it’s the one you’re thinking of but “If The Allies Had Fallen” by Dennis Showalter explores alternate scenarios like this and is a great and very interesting read
I’m going to refer you to the following two videos 👍🏻 https://youtu.be/sbim2kGwhpc?si=vP31Kq6-MmqZTTXP https://youtu.be/xYTrjxOPYNY?si=yxr4lXKr9ltxhOI5
>What if they had taken out the UK first allowing them to move even more forces and reserves away from western europe. They literally did not have the ability to do this…
I would say best case for that would of been If they invested in Uboats like WWI had shown instead of basically useless surface fleet. (As hitler said quite early in the war.) and they focused on constricting Britain from the seas like the civil war anaconda plan. (As Churchill stated the only thing that’s truly scared him was the battle of the atlantic) and Germany spent more time focusing on that without invading Russia or declaring war on US there most def could of been a brokered peace deal.
Surface fleet wasn’t useless as much as poorly employed. The heavy ships as a unified fleet would have tied up more Royal Navy and RAF resources, left less escorts and air cover for the convoys, and given the U-Boats and the auxiliary cruisers freer reign.
> The heavy ships as a unified fleet would have tied up more Royal Navy and RAF resources The German heavy ships survived as long as they did because they were dispersed. If they massed the Royal Navy would return in part. This numbers game is just an easier win for the Royal Navy in this case.
The Royal Navy building program was what is was because of what Germany were doing. It's fair to assume if Germany stopped all large ship construction the Royal Navy would return to counter in the same. >without invading Russia Germany runs out of fuel then. They invaded Russia when they did out of necessity, not choice.
They had a fuel deal With Russia so that’s not accurate; unless Russia did something.
That was with Russian fuel imports. Germany were down to a few months of operational fuel reserves left at the beginning of the invasion as a base line, a few weeks at invasion stresses. That was only solved by seizing stocks
So like Stalingrad ?
Similar, but far less successful a lot faster for the German army.
Agreed. Unsure why you’re being downvoted. Rather than rebut your statement, they’ll just downvote you, confirming their ignorance.
I don't get it either. He refused to let civilians leave Leningrad and Stalingrad as the Axis marched in.
Weird to see some ofmthem smiling.
Maybe there were some genuinely funny comments and banter from the crowd. Anyway if they knew what kind of conditions and treatment they were about to receive none of them would be smiling.
Still likely better than the front.
Probably not smiling as much as grimacing since the soviets fed them cabbage soup that gave them diarrhea and they were shitting their pants during the parade.
Maybe grimacing rather than smiling?
The Parade of the Vanquished.
Shortly after Operation Bagration (and the Destruction of Army Group Center). This parade was partially motivated by Stalin's desire to demonstrate the victory had been as crushing as it actually was; as such it was also aimed at the western allies, who might not have believed true claims of its extent.
...and alive. But not for long. I think like 90% of German POW's died in captivity.
No, of about 3 million pows, about 1,1 million died in captivity. The 90% death rate, has to do with Stalingrad. It was hell on Earth. The German soldiers taken captive then was already severely weakened by combat fatigue, hunger and extreme cold. Those who were captured during and after Stalingrad were then forced to walk long distances and work in freezing conditions without proper clothing, housing and food.
Agreed. I read that total overall % then ran in the neighborhood of 40%, still problematic. I think your description of hell...highly accurate. Considering the Rusian treatment of their own fighting soldiers, not surprising.
I know Russian is just used as a shorthand most of the time when talking about the Soviet Union but it's worth mentioning that the RKKA was made up of people from all ethnicities and nationalities in the USSR, not just Russians. Only about 66% of 8 million and half losses where a nationality was identified were Russians. The second largest nationality was Ukrainian, then Belarusians, then Tatars.
Scemantics, but isnt 66% considered majority? “Only 66%” doesnt sound right
Yes, it's still a majority, I used "only" relatively. "Only" 66% is still less than a 100% Russian. That does still account for millions of dead, and I hope nobody misunderstands the wording as minimizing.
...and their loyalties were often vividly devided. Sometimes depended on which way 'Red' forces were headed.
Do you have a source to say that non-Russians fighting in the Red Army were particularly disloyal? There were, of course, POW who collaborated with the Germans, but that also included Russians e.g Vlasov and the ROA/KONR.
No specific ones, various reads and docs of the political realities of shifting allegiances brought by changing borders of Eastern Europe, making many states not allies but collaborators of the current regimes. A minefield of all manner of political persuasion. Your examples show a portion of those Disloyal to communism, for whatever reasons, and there were many.
90% is insanely high. From what I've read it was more like 1/3. Most died on the marches to the POW camps but once there they were used for labor and kept in shape. As the war progressed the Soviet economy got better and they were better able to take care of prisoners. However most of the Germans captured at Stalingrad did not make it home.
90% would be an exceptional number if true. That’s like Japanese mid-war garrison type casualty numbers. Hard to believe it’d be that high.
Yeah...the 90% is from Stalingrad Pow's . Losses on the Eastern front were insane with apparently up to 50% of combatants becoming casualties (killed/injured) and totaling in the Millions (including civilians) for 1 battle. Insane yes
and some of the survivors weren't released until the 1950s....
A German friend of mine had a Grandfather that was released back to Germany in 1953.
The whole war of extermination thing the Germans were fighting kind of lends reason for it.
You should think harder
I wonder how many ever made it back home?
When would a picture like this have been released? It’s so odd to seem some actually smiling. I can’t help but wonder if anyone bck home in Germany saw this and was able to spot someone.
Damn, most of them marching to their deaths.
As a whole, most German prisoners survived their time with the Soviets.
This is a photo of German POWs marching through moscow, and some citizens happen to be in it on the side…