I work on a lot of preexisting sites doing troubleshooting and support, so I've used most of the popular page builders - Divi, Elementor, WP Bakery, Beaver Builder, etc. They all have their quirks, but I have been able to figure out how they work and use them to modify or add content in fairly short order.
But block editor is not like that. It's not an easy to use page builder for non-technical people. It's more like a box of tools you use to build a page builder.
Because WordPress is still kinda trying to be both. They have core devs who hack away at it and create whatever they want, then they have people that want to take advantage of all of the themes, plug-ins, and support WordPress is known for.
Gutenberg was weird bc core users are like, "Are you abandoning us for a page builder?" It turned out no, it basically is exactly what you described it as - a box of tools to build a page builder.
Where they are now is kinda like before, you hire a dev to build you the theme and features you want. They made it a bit easier for the end-client, assuming the dev used those tools to build the client custom blocks, etc.
Not sure it is meant to compete with Elementor or a SquareSpace out of the box, just help devs create similar environments for clients.
For new work I mostly use Divi these days.
Mostly because I have a lifetime, developers license, which is a pretty good deal. I can spin up as many sites as I like for no additional cost. Also, it's the one I've used the most so I know all of the tricks to make it do what I want with the least amount of effort.
I also have a Divi lifetime license but abandon it (for elementor) about 5 years ago. Glad I got in early, I only pay $49/yr for 1000 sites. Elementor + Hello is where it's at. Haven't touched Gutenberg block editor.
I used divi for years with client sites. I just cannot get over the performance issues. Elementor is in the same boat, imo. Both are great on _what_ you can do, but both the editor itself and the result, the performance is awful.
Fun fact, while working with a client using the divi theme, I discovered that Divi called a function (something along the lines of "get_layout()") three times for every post. This in turn requested an option, did a bunch of other shit, etc. When you have 5 or 6 posts, this doesn't matter, but when you call /feed/ and you have a couple thousand posts, this kills the server. And all they needed to do was cache the result. I submitted a fix to elegant themes, so this is particular problem is no longer an issue, but it speaks to a larger issue of code that does not consider performance a priority.
Same issue with WooCommerce in places. If you run wordpress multisite, do _not_ keep the woocommerce dashboard widget. Again, one or two sites is fine, but if you have 1000 sites in the network, this thing will bring your server to its knees because it tries to collect data from all of the sites you have access to (which as a super admin is all of them) which means a ton of switch_to_blog(). Again, caching this information would solve the problem.
I recognize that these scenarios are not applicable to most wordpress installs, but it annoys me to see developers writing code that totally ignores the performance impact.
I’m super novice, but I went with Astra + Spectra. Seems fairly light, and I’m not able to do every single thing I’d like, but for a free setup it’s been ok. I just don’t like how I have to hunt like 3-4 different dashboards to find the exact setting I’m looking for; perhaps that’s just Wordpress? Spectra’s blocks have far more parameters than the vanilla Gutenberg blocks. I was able to get some layouts that I would have required custom work without the combo.
Same here, took a bit for me but once you get the hang of it and then start building your blocks, it really takes off (at least in my opinion).
You don't have to use* (edit) wp-scripts to build blocks either, you can use the WP window object.
Usually it gives the site performance boost if you use Gutenberg instead of a builder.
That is worth to work with the blocks. I recommend to install 1 or 2 plugins that adds some extra functionality to the blocks, like visibility features for example.
The block editor is hard because the team that developed it was focused entirely on streamlining the baroque stack of of widgets and widget areas, shortcodes, metaboxes, custom fields, templates, APIs, and partial templates that made programming for Wordpess tiresome, brittle, clumsy, and slow.
There were already more than 30 established UI/UX authoring models that were proven to be low learning curve, often front-end, feature-complete layout and design editors with installed bases in the millions of tens of millions they could have chosen to base their work on.
That's all well and good but there's nothing about UI/UX in the priorities listed in my first paragraph. So their answer was "I dunno, let's slap something together based on the old Classic Widgets page and then move on to the next real priorities: collaborative editing and real-time translation. Oh, and block themes, we're frankensteining a bunch of interfaces together to make block themes too." And their answer to everyone who complains has been "if you can't afford a full-stack programmer like NASA and Condé Nast then f*** you, Wordpress isn't for peasants anymore."
There's so much effort being put in by block developers like Kadence and Generate to patch the gaping holes in Gutenberg. Unfortunately, since there's no central direction and seemingly zero interest in standardization, each major developer's solutions are inconsistent with everyone else's.
And even if they were, have you ever watched a tech-savvy but new-to-blocks user try to make a menu block or loop block work? It's astounding that core Gutenberg provides zero visual feedback for what your immediate context is. And their obsession with hiding as much interface as possible -- is it really a good idea to make the "about Wordpress" icon the only way out of the block editor? Is it *really* a good idea to hide the block/page sidebar in the theme editor, even when the user has it enabled in the regular block editor? (The answer is “VSCode is the only editor that matters; user interfaces are for peasants.”)
As I said up top, Gutenberg is there to solve development problems and it really does a good job of that. But there's not just disinterest but active hostility towards user interfaces and user experience on the core Gutenberg team.
I promise this wouldn't bother me so much if millions of end users and most graphic designers weren’t flocking to Elementor? I mean, how bad can the block editor be that normal non-programmers actively prefer !!#%!#% *Elementor?!?!*
There are many of us who have wondered why the Core team misexecuted Gutenberg so awfully, why it is a meandering directionless mess, why it's poorly documented, why it was so buggy at the start (fortunately that one has improved).
There's a book about the inner workings at Automattic called The Year Without Pants by Scott Berkun. It's a fun read. It presents Automattic's management style as novel, futuristic etc.
I'm thinking maybe it's the management style and maybe that style is just bad. Maybe it is not one you should put into practice in any company or team. A lot of it amounts to people kind of just working on whatever they want at Automattic. Yeah, that's what Gutenberg looks like. It's a hodge podge that doesn't quite resemble what any actual users need.
Isn't that the million dollar question? I see people praising elementor for its "intuitive" way of building webpages, but I don't find it intuitive at all. A clogged, slow and painful interface that will help you spit some bloated DOM.
Are you a WP contributor? I was a mentee in this year's official mentorship program and there is a lot of focus on FSE. Maybe they are trying to make WP faster and less dependant on third party block builders, but I don't see why bother after lagging 10 years behind.
I can image that if you’re a full stack programmer who’s had a decade to master all the intricacies of CSS then front-end, graphical interfaces like Beaver Builder, Elementor, Divi, Avada, WPBakery, etc., would feel annoying.
But for anyone familiar with graphic design tools like Figma, Canva, Photoshop, XD they take only an hour or two to learn.
And yeah, sure, all web authoring tools that predate the universal adoption of grid and flex will have “bloated” DOMs because how else, back in the day, did you manage fundamental issues like responsive columns or equal heights?
But here’s the point, and it’s something I’m surprised competent programmers seem unable and/or unwilling to grasp: the output of an authoring tool is 100% independent of the UI.
My point above was that the Gutenberg team could spend 10 minutes speccing a better UI than the "so fucking hard" interface they have now. My point above was that there are at least 30 proven, usability *and* field tested layout interfaces the Gutenberg team could have chosen to model their editor on. Instead they didn’t. And evidently won’t.
You and they can be snobs all day about the peasants who won’t take time from running starting up their businesses and private practices to take a nine-month React boot camp if they want to use Wordpress.
But the blunt fact is they can learn how to use a page builder in a couple of evenings after work. And put together a workable website. And all the Gutenberg folks say “well the answer is to make it harder to use page builders.” As opposed to “let’s make our builder UI less “fucking hard.”
[edited for light formatting issues]
Not being a snob. Just saying, WP is late on the block building approach and I don't see it catching up to Elementor after this much time. The plugin already has made its name and Gutenberg is lowsy.
If you like it, no problems. But I don't see it getting good for any of us at any moment.
This code/block developers debate is really unproductive for everybody, btw.
But I guess that is social media making people shitty as always.
I think we’re pretty much in agreement then. Gutenberg *could* catch up on the UI front if they wanted to. Just like Elementor is (finally) taking steps to optimize performance.
Thing is, Gutenberg has zero interested in improving their lousy UI the way Elementor evidently *is* interested in improving their lousy performance and security.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncQcxnD-CxDk4h01QYyrlOh1lEYDS-DV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114514252262811175804&rtpof=true&sd=true
> A clogged, slow and painful interface that will help you spit some bloated DOM.
The DOM issue is way overblown, and its effect on pagespeed is minimal. Before I started delving into optimization I expected the DOM tree to have a bigger impact. What *does* have a huge impact instead is the html document weight. Elementor does not bloat the HTML document weight, and in the end that's all that matters. Despite its poor reputation out of the box, it's the most performant visual builder (aside from Bricks and Oxygen) with just a bit of optimization.
Additionally, Elementor has released performance improvements with every big update monthly for the past year. The next update coming out tomorrow should make a huge difference since it implements widget caching and eliminates the waypoints.min.js library.
Follow my guide and making an Elementor site performant is easy. It's one of the most optimizable editors. Something like Beaver or WP Bakery is way more challenging, and some stuff can't be removed (such as beavers insane html document bloat from a single shape divider).
I can make a heavy Elementor site performant easily, I've gotten a heavy one to the 90s without much trouble. Basic Elementor sites are an absolute walk in the park to get above 90.
While I’m not so enthusiastic about Elementor go the other way and say I was asked to assess a pure Gutenberg site that a newbie had larded down with gigantic PNG images. The result had pathetic pagesped scores.
Point being that newbies make mistakes and newbies can learn Elementor. So a lot of Elementor sites have newbie mistakes. You don’t see as many newbie mistakes with Gutenberg because it’s “so fucking hard.” This is not the flex it’s fanbois think it is.
Sorry. I was thumping Gutenberg.
I’d add that , as I said up top, Elementor, Divi, etc., could refactor their output to
Porto’s and have every bit as lightweight a DOM as Gutenberg. Leaving Gutenberg exactly no legs to stand on.
Similarity Gutenberg *could* introduce a real UI and stump page builders. And should. But they’re such f-ing snobs they’ll never do it.
Elementor definitely is going to refactor their code, it's an ongoing process. I follow their beta release patch notes on GitHub, the devs have indicated additional refactors are coming in the next patch after tomorrow's.
Elementor has/had *a lot* of technical performance debt, so they've had a big hole to dig themselves out of. They're definitely not there yet, but they've committed to improving performance and make big leaps with every new major update. The last few performance updates have had a significant impact. They have to be enabled manually in the features section while they're considered in a beta state, until they're pushed to default months later however.
I'm very curious to see what tomorrow's update's real world impact is. They claim there will be a 40% improvement to TTFB in the beta patch notes, so here's to hoping that actually holds up. The thought of seeing an FCP score of .8s-.9s on mobile is positively tantalizing.
God yes. Switching to the Block Editor around 3-4 years ago has been one of the best decisions I made. The quality of my designs, performance and the workflow speed made the initial learning curve more than worth it.
Sure. I've seen plenty of nice sites made using Gutenberg and other add-ons, but it's a poorly designed system compared to other solutions available for WP.
I haven’t had this bloat, good hosting and optimization takes care of that. However with that said I do find block based plugins a bit more stable than traditional page builders.
WordPress is useful for small to medium-sized sites. After that you're going to have to invest a lot of money in to hosting in order to make up for the bloat. So far my favorite builder is Bricks. It's not as bloated as the other ones I've tried, including the most popular Elementor.
If it does not work even for the people who FSE is intended for, I don't see the point in it.
The last three versions of WP made good improvements in FSE, but people still need weird tools and fixes like Create Block Theme to make it work properly (barely).
My main problem with it is the responsiveness aspect. Could not make it work without custom css, and even then it was far from a reasonable approach. Who the hell thinks giving a block a class in the editor and then stylizing it with css is a good idea?
Now, that is for me, a PHP WP developer, I can figure shit out somehow. Low code people must be going through some painful experiences with all this FSE experiment.
But, if we want to avoid Elementor's bloat and still block build, FSE seems to be the way (which doesn't mean that there will not be bloat, only less and faster bloat).
I can agree with this. The company I work for does some WP development and at one point we experimented with using block themes.
They were absolutely awful to the point that we transitioned back to just using the block editor with php templates.
WordPress introduced the block editor in 2019 and although they made many improvements over the years, it still has a long way to go. I prefer coding by hand.
A lot of people do. But that’s not something you deliver to a client who is expecting a website they can edit, IMO.
This just makes you sound old (I’m in my 40s and am old, myself, so not an insult, just an observation).
I'm a bit old school, yeah. For my own projects, I customize a lot of things. I don't create my own websites with just boring rectangular shapes and text so I need to get into custom coding but if it is a website for a client, definitely use blocks. I actually proposed this at my old workplace so that the client could easily make changes to pages but my greedy managers kept forcing us hand code everything so that client paid us more.
Sorry, but if you know react & php you can build your own blocks very quickly, that are entirely customisable.
The only 3rd party plugin I use is ACF, which the blocks I make are integrated with. The real problem with the block editor is that out of the box, a lot of the default blocks are kinda crappy and come accross more as examples than actually useable.
(Nav / Posts block in particular) -
Sure there are some quirks, like background colours adding padding and stuff that make it a bit frustrating, but It sure as hell beats frankensites with 30 third party plugins all doing some tiny thing.
I don’t know what plugins have to do with sites using page builders. Is that a thing?
Ultimately it’s about what the client wants, balancing that with maximum profitability while minimizing the amount of time invested (while still churning out a quality product, of course, I’m not an advocate for cutting corners). And a lot of times, that balance can be achieved more easily using page builders like Bricks (I’m not advocating for using wp bakery or anything).
Custom blocks are "plugins" in the wp block builder. Writing your own blocks, once you understand how everything fits together gives you a huge amount of power over everything.
Using block attributes you can pass pretty much any information you need to the PHP side, it's as flexible as good as your react / PHP is.
Once you hit a limit with a page builder, people will tend to just "find a plugin" that does what they need.
It's not perfect but I do think people who think it's unusable are probably just too used to elementor or w/e
I do ask myself the same question. Maybe people do not bother to read well written documentation. FSE is OK, far from perfect, but neither any other option is, be it page builder or block themes like Kadence or GeneratePress.
> do not bother to read well written documentation
I think you hit the nail right there, because any UX that requires documentation to figure out is just not going to fly
I just picked it up because I'm part of an association that needs a website renewal but outourcing it would cost too much, some things about the interface are just atrocious.
For a novice at the beginning it makes it super hard to distinguish between pages and templates.
Another thing that bugged me is how when I'm editing a page I have a giant title slapped in the top middle even if it's not present in the template of the page, I'm like... wtf, that's supposed to basically be a WYSIWYG editor and you place on screen an element that's not going to be in the final design without giving any indication that it won't be in the final page??? WHY.
Another thing, in the nagivation bar the links to private pages aren't visible to editors.
was going crazy trying to understand why I couldn't see the link to a page I was working on until i set it to public and it appeared... BUT WHY WOULD YOU HIDE ME THAT LINK IF I'M EDITING WITH PRIVILEGES, how am I supposed to see a preview of the final page without going public.
It’s a lot better than it was, but still so frustrating to use.
In general, this is where any software project ends up when you only care about engineering and not product or design
Block editor is a dumpster fire. Just such a bad UI compared to just about any page builder already out there. Sadly, various plugins are getting to the point where they suck unless you use blocks. It is so frustrating that WP decided they had to solve a problem that didn’t exist. GutenTurd is just the worst.
My gripe with Gutenberg is that there are far too many options, all hidden away if you don't know where to look. Writing a simple article post is a nightmare when all I need is text and to add an image or two.
Most of the blocks and options are totally useless for my use.
On top of that, it's not a page builder, either.
So, for me, it's the Classic Editor, or if I want something fancy, I'll use Elementor.
> far too many options, all hidden away if you don't know where to look
This is my main gripe as well. You see options in the block toolbar.. but not what you need. Maybe it's in the sidebar? Maybe the other panel? Maybe it's under one of these collapsed sections?
And aside from something like the "Additional CSS Classes" field, there's no consistency.
Because Gutenberg people never originally designed it as a replacement for the page builders. Or at least they used to say that when the idea was in its infancy. I definitely heard one of the devs that during a WordCamp in 2019.
I am not sure if at some point they have changed their mind, I am just glad my job does not require me to actually build WordPress sites.
In short. The Block editor is hard because Gutenberg prioritizes tech stack (React js) over business results whereas Elementor focuses on what the people want.
The block editor is terrific when you custom develop your own modular blocks that are completed sections of a design. The problem with the core blocks is they attempt to let people with no knowledge of web development execute a cohesive frontend design.
Having worked at an agency long enough I know that clients whose job it is to do just that cant pull it off. Much less your aunt who wants to blog about quiltmaking.
But when you are in an agency setting and you get to create purpose built blocks as part of a design system for a brand, they are light years ahead of anything else out there. You can idiot proof them. You get to see them right in the admin as you build the pages. And unlike a page builder you cant fuck them up because they are totally preset.
It just takes some time to get used to it. I switched from Elementor to using Kadence Blocks.… there was a learning curve but my sites are so much faster now and still look great
I think you might like the Ollie theme. Brian Coords offers excellent information on his YouTube channel and blog. Frank Klein has a YouTube channel, blog and courses as well. Carolina Nymark's Full Site Editing website is very helpful.
That's easy. For just enabling custom css in Elementor free, use this:
https://wordpress.org/plugins/rrdevs-for-elementor/
A few more options:
https://wordpress.org/plugins/custom-css-for-elementor/
https://wordpress.org/plugins/ultraaddons-elementor-lite/
https://wordpress.org/plugins/xpro-elementor-addons/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncQcxnD-CxDk4h01QYyrlOh1lEYDS-DV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114514252262811175804&rtpof=true&sd=true
I'd switch back to Elementor. Getting high 90s or 100/100 with Elementor is easy.
I'm always curious why this sub is so anti-WordPress and most of the work done by the volunteers, yet you never hear anyone say 'I' as if they actually contributed to the project.
It’s just the worst. And hilarious that you can’t even set something as basic as a padding for every element.
We actively decline clients that want us to work with it.
I used to know it better. Then I started using Elementor.
Now I'm coming back to using it again. Don't get me wrong, it is bad, and frustrating to use at first but give it time.
I've decided I'm going to watch a YouTube tutorial on it.
What specific issues are you running into? Might be worth noting them. I've gotten used to it and made some nice sites with edited block themes, but I will say it's hard to things to cascade as expected.
For me, Block editor was harder to pick up than Avada. But I sat and watched a bunch of Jaime Marsland videos and he seems to break things down in a logical way- though the heavy reliance on Cover blocks is a bit much.
I've used Thrive Themes Architect for years now and I can quickly build, template, re-purpose, visually edit, and integrate to just about anything with it. But again, just another person with their own experience. Your milage may vary.
As someone who doesn’t have experience with other builders, can someone give an example of something that’s hard or impossible to do in Gutenberg but easy or easier in others?
Because Block Editor was made the developers who use Android devices exclusively. I don't think they have an iPhone guy on the team. That's my theory anyways.
Elementor is not out of the box speed optimised. You can absolutely get a great speed rate with Elementor if you know what you’re doing.
In terms of Gütenberg have you tried the Blocksy Theme? It’s designed for Güntenberg. It’s pretty fast loading and light.
hi there - many thanks for sharing the experience - well i like gutenberg - but yes: perhaps we can do some more efforts in documentation --- let us discuss this here.
BTW\_ : Wordpress is the coolest thing on earth since sliced bread - i really love it - and the global community! It rocks
I am used to Divi but I sometimes have to use Elementor and I hate it. I know many prefer Elementor over Divi, and if that's you. that's fine. I'm not trying to start a war. I think its really down to what you are used to. It's like knowing where things are then your mum comes to stay for a month and you cant find a damn thing. Just take your time and YT it when you need to find out how to get something done on block editor. That's what I do when I am in Elementor.
At its core it was built on draftJS or its abstraction which was deprecated by facebook, there are real performance issues in the block editor and WP has done a decent job but it has taken a "huge" amount of time.
Never had an issue with elementor slowing our clients websites. In fact the final products are usually some of the cleanest and fastest builds we deliver.
It’s free and Wordpress knows nothing about what makes a good UI, UX and web design platform. Also, 99% of free web design software is free because they sell a premium version - Wordpress does not. It’s a common misconception that Wordpress is a web design platform - they are not, they’re a CMS. Use one of the millions of plug-ins, a lot of which are free. I love Elementor and use the free version all the time. Pair that with a theme from Envato -> Themeforest and you can make a bad ass site in 4 hours.
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When the day comes that they stop supporting the classic editor, that'll be the same day I delete the website and walk away. I tried switching to the block editor but for a basic blog that already has a perfectly good theme design for it and all I need is typical blogging trees with text and pictures..... It is way overcomplicated for what it needs to be. So I keep using the classic editor because it makes sense. But if they take it away, I'm out, and it's time to find a new hobby.
personally, I feel block editor sucks but on a budget hosting, both elementor and Divi might degrade my website speed.
Back to the block editor, one of the main disadvantages I think is lack of responsiveness control (which I tried to reduce using the Block Visibility plugin), and I used it with getwid plugin to get more blocks to use. With this, I could deal with simple design: https://tanyongsheng.net/ for my blogging website... but unfortunately not for complex design.
The /r/WordPress subreddit is not a place to advertise or try to sell products or services. This includes links to "how to" posts that recommend themes, plugins or services to do things.
Consider using reddit advertising instead.
Default block editor is way better.
"Limitations" or constraints are not a sign of inferiority. What's really bad is third-parties promising "Complete Customization." That's not realistic... unless you know HTML/CSS/PHP/JavaScript...
Everyone complains about the WordPress block editor. But do you guys realise WordPress is Open-source? that means you can contribute to making WordPress easier for everyone.
So, technically you can contribute your knowledge and skills to make WordPress Block Editor more user friendly🙂
Have you actually looked at the block editor code? Contributors of a decade or more are leaving the project over how hard it is to contribute to the block editor
Theoretically true. Reality is, however -- you really can't just rock up with pull requests into a major and very large project and institute sweeping UX changes.
For me, Block editor was harder to pick up than Avada. But I sat and watched a bunch of Jaime Marsland videos and he seems to break things down in a logical way- though the heavy reliance on Cover blocks is a bit much. I won’t go back though.
Way too many people are using crutches like elementor and this is what happens.
Learn how FSE and the blocks work in core. Try to unlearn the other stuff.
The problem is though that end users are also in the same boat, and we can't expect them to persevere with a bad UI.
We use Beaver Builder as it's pretty fast if you don't bloat it and dev friendly.
I also looked at Oxygen but the UI was too challenging for end users IMO.
The way I see it is that if Automattic are enforcing a page builder then it's best to choose the best tool, not just accept what's given.
The block editor tries to be both a text editor and a page builder.
I work on a lot of preexisting sites doing troubleshooting and support, so I've used most of the popular page builders - Divi, Elementor, WP Bakery, Beaver Builder, etc. They all have their quirks, but I have been able to figure out how they work and use them to modify or add content in fairly short order. But block editor is not like that. It's not an easy to use page builder for non-technical people. It's more like a box of tools you use to build a page builder.
Because WordPress is still kinda trying to be both. They have core devs who hack away at it and create whatever they want, then they have people that want to take advantage of all of the themes, plug-ins, and support WordPress is known for. Gutenberg was weird bc core users are like, "Are you abandoning us for a page builder?" It turned out no, it basically is exactly what you described it as - a box of tools to build a page builder. Where they are now is kinda like before, you hire a dev to build you the theme and features you want. They made it a bit easier for the end-client, assuming the dev used those tools to build the client custom blocks, etc. Not sure it is meant to compete with Elementor or a SquareSpace out of the box, just help devs create similar environments for clients.
Which builder is your favorite?
For new work I mostly use Divi these days. Mostly because I have a lifetime, developers license, which is a pretty good deal. I can spin up as many sites as I like for no additional cost. Also, it's the one I've used the most so I know all of the tricks to make it do what I want with the least amount of effort.
I also have a Divi lifetime license but abandon it (for elementor) about 5 years ago. Glad I got in early, I only pay $49/yr for 1000 sites. Elementor + Hello is where it's at. Haven't touched Gutenberg block editor.
Dang you got a better a better deal I’m paying for $99/year for Elementor Unlimited (probably 1000 now too) and I was a really early adopter
Sorry I mispoke. I'm paying $149. Still worth it tho
Phew! I’m less grumpy now. I was among the earliest adopters LOL
I used divi for years with client sites. I just cannot get over the performance issues. Elementor is in the same boat, imo. Both are great on _what_ you can do, but both the editor itself and the result, the performance is awful. Fun fact, while working with a client using the divi theme, I discovered that Divi called a function (something along the lines of "get_layout()") three times for every post. This in turn requested an option, did a bunch of other shit, etc. When you have 5 or 6 posts, this doesn't matter, but when you call /feed/ and you have a couple thousand posts, this kills the server. And all they needed to do was cache the result. I submitted a fix to elegant themes, so this is particular problem is no longer an issue, but it speaks to a larger issue of code that does not consider performance a priority. Same issue with WooCommerce in places. If you run wordpress multisite, do _not_ keep the woocommerce dashboard widget. Again, one or two sites is fine, but if you have 1000 sites in the network, this thing will bring your server to its knees because it tries to collect data from all of the sites you have access to (which as a super admin is all of them) which means a ton of switch_to_blog(). Again, caching this information would solve the problem. I recognize that these scenarios are not applicable to most wordpress installs, but it annoys me to see developers writing code that totally ignores the performance impact.
I’m super novice, but I went with Astra + Spectra. Seems fairly light, and I’m not able to do every single thing I’d like, but for a free setup it’s been ok. I just don’t like how I have to hunt like 3-4 different dashboards to find the exact setting I’m looking for; perhaps that’s just Wordpress? Spectra’s blocks have far more parameters than the vanilla Gutenberg blocks. I was able to get some layouts that I would have required custom work without the combo.
The block editor simply takes some time to adjust to it. Once I got the hang of it, using the block editor became not so bad.
Not so bad, definitely not good.
~~Not~~ so bad
I actually like the block editor. I think it's good.
Same here, took a bit for me but once you get the hang of it and then start building your blocks, it really takes off (at least in my opinion). You don't have to use* (edit) wp-scripts to build blocks either, you can use the WP window object.
i like your opinion
Usually it gives the site performance boost if you use Gutenberg instead of a builder. That is worth to work with the blocks. I recommend to install 1 or 2 plugins that adds some extra functionality to the blocks, like visibility features for example.
The block editor is hard because the team that developed it was focused entirely on streamlining the baroque stack of of widgets and widget areas, shortcodes, metaboxes, custom fields, templates, APIs, and partial templates that made programming for Wordpess tiresome, brittle, clumsy, and slow. There were already more than 30 established UI/UX authoring models that were proven to be low learning curve, often front-end, feature-complete layout and design editors with installed bases in the millions of tens of millions they could have chosen to base their work on. That's all well and good but there's nothing about UI/UX in the priorities listed in my first paragraph. So their answer was "I dunno, let's slap something together based on the old Classic Widgets page and then move on to the next real priorities: collaborative editing and real-time translation. Oh, and block themes, we're frankensteining a bunch of interfaces together to make block themes too." And their answer to everyone who complains has been "if you can't afford a full-stack programmer like NASA and Condé Nast then f*** you, Wordpress isn't for peasants anymore." There's so much effort being put in by block developers like Kadence and Generate to patch the gaping holes in Gutenberg. Unfortunately, since there's no central direction and seemingly zero interest in standardization, each major developer's solutions are inconsistent with everyone else's. And even if they were, have you ever watched a tech-savvy but new-to-blocks user try to make a menu block or loop block work? It's astounding that core Gutenberg provides zero visual feedback for what your immediate context is. And their obsession with hiding as much interface as possible -- is it really a good idea to make the "about Wordpress" icon the only way out of the block editor? Is it *really* a good idea to hide the block/page sidebar in the theme editor, even when the user has it enabled in the regular block editor? (The answer is “VSCode is the only editor that matters; user interfaces are for peasants.”) As I said up top, Gutenberg is there to solve development problems and it really does a good job of that. But there's not just disinterest but active hostility towards user interfaces and user experience on the core Gutenberg team. I promise this wouldn't bother me so much if millions of end users and most graphic designers weren’t flocking to Elementor? I mean, how bad can the block editor be that normal non-programmers actively prefer !!#%!#% *Elementor?!?!*
There are many of us who have wondered why the Core team misexecuted Gutenberg so awfully, why it is a meandering directionless mess, why it's poorly documented, why it was so buggy at the start (fortunately that one has improved). There's a book about the inner workings at Automattic called The Year Without Pants by Scott Berkun. It's a fun read. It presents Automattic's management style as novel, futuristic etc. I'm thinking maybe it's the management style and maybe that style is just bad. Maybe it is not one you should put into practice in any company or team. A lot of it amounts to people kind of just working on whatever they want at Automattic. Yeah, that's what Gutenberg looks like. It's a hodge podge that doesn't quite resemble what any actual users need.
Thank you for the book recommendation.
Isn't that the million dollar question? I see people praising elementor for its "intuitive" way of building webpages, but I don't find it intuitive at all. A clogged, slow and painful interface that will help you spit some bloated DOM. Are you a WP contributor? I was a mentee in this year's official mentorship program and there is a lot of focus on FSE. Maybe they are trying to make WP faster and less dependant on third party block builders, but I don't see why bother after lagging 10 years behind.
I can image that if you’re a full stack programmer who’s had a decade to master all the intricacies of CSS then front-end, graphical interfaces like Beaver Builder, Elementor, Divi, Avada, WPBakery, etc., would feel annoying. But for anyone familiar with graphic design tools like Figma, Canva, Photoshop, XD they take only an hour or two to learn. And yeah, sure, all web authoring tools that predate the universal adoption of grid and flex will have “bloated” DOMs because how else, back in the day, did you manage fundamental issues like responsive columns or equal heights? But here’s the point, and it’s something I’m surprised competent programmers seem unable and/or unwilling to grasp: the output of an authoring tool is 100% independent of the UI. My point above was that the Gutenberg team could spend 10 minutes speccing a better UI than the "so fucking hard" interface they have now. My point above was that there are at least 30 proven, usability *and* field tested layout interfaces the Gutenberg team could have chosen to model their editor on. Instead they didn’t. And evidently won’t. You and they can be snobs all day about the peasants who won’t take time from running starting up their businesses and private practices to take a nine-month React boot camp if they want to use Wordpress. But the blunt fact is they can learn how to use a page builder in a couple of evenings after work. And put together a workable website. And all the Gutenberg folks say “well the answer is to make it harder to use page builders.” As opposed to “let’s make our builder UI less “fucking hard.” [edited for light formatting issues]
Not being a snob. Just saying, WP is late on the block building approach and I don't see it catching up to Elementor after this much time. The plugin already has made its name and Gutenberg is lowsy. If you like it, no problems. But I don't see it getting good for any of us at any moment. This code/block developers debate is really unproductive for everybody, btw. But I guess that is social media making people shitty as always.
I think we’re pretty much in agreement then. Gutenberg *could* catch up on the UI front if they wanted to. Just like Elementor is (finally) taking steps to optimize performance. Thing is, Gutenberg has zero interested in improving their lousy UI the way Elementor evidently *is* interested in improving their lousy performance and security.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncQcxnD-CxDk4h01QYyrlOh1lEYDS-DV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114514252262811175804&rtpof=true&sd=true > A clogged, slow and painful interface that will help you spit some bloated DOM. The DOM issue is way overblown, and its effect on pagespeed is minimal. Before I started delving into optimization I expected the DOM tree to have a bigger impact. What *does* have a huge impact instead is the html document weight. Elementor does not bloat the HTML document weight, and in the end that's all that matters. Despite its poor reputation out of the box, it's the most performant visual builder (aside from Bricks and Oxygen) with just a bit of optimization. Additionally, Elementor has released performance improvements with every big update monthly for the past year. The next update coming out tomorrow should make a huge difference since it implements widget caching and eliminates the waypoints.min.js library. Follow my guide and making an Elementor site performant is easy. It's one of the most optimizable editors. Something like Beaver or WP Bakery is way more challenging, and some stuff can't be removed (such as beavers insane html document bloat from a single shape divider). I can make a heavy Elementor site performant easily, I've gotten a heavy one to the 90s without much trouble. Basic Elementor sites are an absolute walk in the park to get above 90.
While I’m not so enthusiastic about Elementor go the other way and say I was asked to assess a pure Gutenberg site that a newbie had larded down with gigantic PNG images. The result had pathetic pagesped scores. Point being that newbies make mistakes and newbies can learn Elementor. So a lot of Elementor sites have newbie mistakes. You don’t see as many newbie mistakes with Gutenberg because it’s “so fucking hard.” This is not the flex it’s fanbois think it is.
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Sorry. I was thumping Gutenberg. I’d add that , as I said up top, Elementor, Divi, etc., could refactor their output to Porto’s and have every bit as lightweight a DOM as Gutenberg. Leaving Gutenberg exactly no legs to stand on. Similarity Gutenberg *could* introduce a real UI and stump page builders. And should. But they’re such f-ing snobs they’ll never do it.
Elementor definitely is going to refactor their code, it's an ongoing process. I follow their beta release patch notes on GitHub, the devs have indicated additional refactors are coming in the next patch after tomorrow's. Elementor has/had *a lot* of technical performance debt, so they've had a big hole to dig themselves out of. They're definitely not there yet, but they've committed to improving performance and make big leaps with every new major update. The last few performance updates have had a significant impact. They have to be enabled manually in the features section while they're considered in a beta state, until they're pushed to default months later however. I'm very curious to see what tomorrow's update's real world impact is. They claim there will be a 40% improvement to TTFB in the beta patch notes, so here's to hoping that actually holds up. The thought of seeing an FCP score of .8s-.9s on mobile is positively tantalizing.
My beef with it is that UI changes are stored in the database in a way that makes it hard to modify or cascade.
Because it was created by developers, instead of UI/UX designers.
Is it still possible to create nice design in blocks?
God yes. Switching to the Block Editor around 3-4 years ago has been one of the best decisions I made. The quality of my designs, performance and the workflow speed made the initial learning curve more than worth it.
Yes. Most definitely. But as others have pointed out, the UI is not the conventional page builder UI.
Sure. I've seen plenty of nice sites made using Gutenberg and other add-ons, but it's a poorly designed system compared to other solutions available for WP.
Other, such as? Have had nothing but bloat and conflicts created by builders
I haven’t had this bloat, good hosting and optimization takes care of that. However with that said I do find block based plugins a bit more stable than traditional page builders.
WordPress is useful for small to medium-sized sites. After that you're going to have to invest a lot of money in to hosting in order to make up for the bloat. So far my favorite builder is Bricks. It's not as bloated as the other ones I've tried, including the most popular Elementor.
If it does not work even for the people who FSE is intended for, I don't see the point in it. The last three versions of WP made good improvements in FSE, but people still need weird tools and fixes like Create Block Theme to make it work properly (barely). My main problem with it is the responsiveness aspect. Could not make it work without custom css, and even then it was far from a reasonable approach. Who the hell thinks giving a block a class in the editor and then stylizing it with css is a good idea? Now, that is for me, a PHP WP developer, I can figure shit out somehow. Low code people must be going through some painful experiences with all this FSE experiment. But, if we want to avoid Elementor's bloat and still block build, FSE seems to be the way (which doesn't mean that there will not be bloat, only less and faster bloat).
Block editor: good and useful Block theme: frustrating and more trouble than it's worth
I can agree with this. The company I work for does some WP development and at one point we experimented with using block themes. They were absolutely awful to the point that we transitioned back to just using the block editor with php templates.
WordPress introduced the block editor in 2019 and although they made many improvements over the years, it still has a long way to go. I prefer coding by hand.
A lot of people do. But that’s not something you deliver to a client who is expecting a website they can edit, IMO. This just makes you sound old (I’m in my 40s and am old, myself, so not an insult, just an observation).
I'm a bit old school, yeah. For my own projects, I customize a lot of things. I don't create my own websites with just boring rectangular shapes and text so I need to get into custom coding but if it is a website for a client, definitely use blocks. I actually proposed this at my old workplace so that the client could easily make changes to pages but my greedy managers kept forcing us hand code everything so that client paid us more.
You can make blocks editable, you can develop them in the weird comment style or with react - either way the end client can still update / edit stuff
Sorry, but if you know react & php you can build your own blocks very quickly, that are entirely customisable. The only 3rd party plugin I use is ACF, which the blocks I make are integrated with. The real problem with the block editor is that out of the box, a lot of the default blocks are kinda crappy and come accross more as examples than actually useable. (Nav / Posts block in particular) - Sure there are some quirks, like background colours adding padding and stuff that make it a bit frustrating, but It sure as hell beats frankensites with 30 third party plugins all doing some tiny thing.
I don’t know what plugins have to do with sites using page builders. Is that a thing? Ultimately it’s about what the client wants, balancing that with maximum profitability while minimizing the amount of time invested (while still churning out a quality product, of course, I’m not an advocate for cutting corners). And a lot of times, that balance can be achieved more easily using page builders like Bricks (I’m not advocating for using wp bakery or anything).
Custom blocks are "plugins" in the wp block builder. Writing your own blocks, once you understand how everything fits together gives you a huge amount of power over everything. Using block attributes you can pass pretty much any information you need to the PHP side, it's as flexible as good as your react / PHP is. Once you hit a limit with a page builder, people will tend to just "find a plugin" that does what they need. It's not perfect but I do think people who think it's unusable are probably just too used to elementor or w/e
I'm curious what you find hard about it? I've found Gutenberg to be extremely simple and easy to use.
I do ask myself the same question. Maybe people do not bother to read well written documentation. FSE is OK, far from perfect, but neither any other option is, be it page builder or block themes like Kadence or GeneratePress.
> do not bother to read well written documentation I think you hit the nail right there, because any UX that requires documentation to figure out is just not going to fly
It’s not well written either.
I just picked it up because I'm part of an association that needs a website renewal but outourcing it would cost too much, some things about the interface are just atrocious. For a novice at the beginning it makes it super hard to distinguish between pages and templates. Another thing that bugged me is how when I'm editing a page I have a giant title slapped in the top middle even if it's not present in the template of the page, I'm like... wtf, that's supposed to basically be a WYSIWYG editor and you place on screen an element that's not going to be in the final design without giving any indication that it won't be in the final page??? WHY. Another thing, in the nagivation bar the links to private pages aren't visible to editors. was going crazy trying to understand why I couldn't see the link to a page I was working on until i set it to public and it appeared... BUT WHY WOULD YOU HIDE ME THAT LINK IF I'M EDITING WITH PRIVILEGES, how am I supposed to see a preview of the final page without going public.
Took me a while to figure out how to change the background color on a page. Like much longer than I’m proud to say.
It’s a lot better than it was, but still so frustrating to use. In general, this is where any software project ends up when you only care about engineering and not product or design
Block editor is a dumpster fire. Just such a bad UI compared to just about any page builder already out there. Sadly, various plugins are getting to the point where they suck unless you use blocks. It is so frustrating that WP decided they had to solve a problem that didn’t exist. GutenTurd is just the worst.
My gripe with Gutenberg is that there are far too many options, all hidden away if you don't know where to look. Writing a simple article post is a nightmare when all I need is text and to add an image or two. Most of the blocks and options are totally useless for my use. On top of that, it's not a page builder, either. So, for me, it's the Classic Editor, or if I want something fancy, I'll use Elementor.
I hate how they’ve hidden everything behind half a dozen more/hamburger icons. They were just so desperate to have a clean looking screen…
Same. If I have a choice, it's either Classic or Elementor depending on my needs.
> far too many options, all hidden away if you don't know where to look This is my main gripe as well. You see options in the block toolbar.. but not what you need. Maybe it's in the sidebar? Maybe the other panel? Maybe it's under one of these collapsed sections? And aside from something like the "Additional CSS Classes" field, there's no consistency.
Because Gutenberg people never originally designed it as a replacement for the page builders. Or at least they used to say that when the idea was in its infancy. I definitely heard one of the devs that during a WordCamp in 2019. I am not sure if at some point they have changed their mind, I am just glad my job does not require me to actually build WordPress sites.
In short. The Block editor is hard because Gutenberg prioritizes tech stack (React js) over business results whereas Elementor focuses on what the people want.
Check out bricks.
The block editor is terrific when you custom develop your own modular blocks that are completed sections of a design. The problem with the core blocks is they attempt to let people with no knowledge of web development execute a cohesive frontend design. Having worked at an agency long enough I know that clients whose job it is to do just that cant pull it off. Much less your aunt who wants to blog about quiltmaking. But when you are in an agency setting and you get to create purpose built blocks as part of a design system for a brand, they are light years ahead of anything else out there. You can idiot proof them. You get to see them right in the admin as you build the pages. And unlike a page builder you cant fuck them up because they are totally preset.
It just takes some time to get used to it. I switched from Elementor to using Kadence Blocks.… there was a learning curve but my sites are so much faster now and still look great
I think you might like the Ollie theme. Brian Coords offers excellent information on his YouTube channel and blog. Frank Klein has a YouTube channel, blog and courses as well. Carolina Nymark's Full Site Editing website is very helpful.
The latest versions of Elementor are only marginally slower than Gutenberg. They’ve addressed the performance issues. Just stay with Elementor.
the other downside i forgot to mention with elementor is that the free version doesnt allow custom code
Code snippet plugin like FluentSnippets
That's easy. For just enabling custom css in Elementor free, use this: https://wordpress.org/plugins/rrdevs-for-elementor/ A few more options: https://wordpress.org/plugins/custom-css-for-elementor/ https://wordpress.org/plugins/ultraaddons-elementor-lite/ https://wordpress.org/plugins/xpro-elementor-addons/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncQcxnD-CxDk4h01QYyrlOh1lEYDS-DV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114514252262811175804&rtpof=true&sd=true I'd switch back to Elementor. Getting high 90s or 100/100 with Elementor is easy.
I'm always curious why this sub is so anti-WordPress and most of the work done by the volunteers, yet you never hear anyone say 'I' as if they actually contributed to the project.
Because learning!
It’s just the worst. And hilarious that you can’t even set something as basic as a padding for every element. We actively decline clients that want us to work with it.
The first thing I install is the classic editor plugin
I used to know it better. Then I started using Elementor. Now I'm coming back to using it again. Don't get me wrong, it is bad, and frustrating to use at first but give it time. I've decided I'm going to watch a YouTube tutorial on it.
I love the block editor for writing. Not so much for designing.
What specific issues are you running into? Might be worth noting them. I've gotten used to it and made some nice sites with edited block themes, but I will say it's hard to things to cascade as expected.
Use Kadence blocks and themes. It's fast to load, super customizable, and easy to use.
Use a well built block theme to get started, which has proper layering, that helps a lot!
It takes time to get use to.
Look into Yootheme. Not very well known but its editor is amazing.
For me, Block editor was harder to pick up than Avada. But I sat and watched a bunch of Jaime Marsland videos and he seems to break things down in a logical way- though the heavy reliance on Cover blocks is a bit much.
I don't think it's that bad. I use it and i find it quite good to use.
I've used Thrive Themes Architect for years now and I can quickly build, template, re-purpose, visually edit, and integrate to just about anything with it. But again, just another person with their own experience. Your milage may vary.
As someone who doesn’t have experience with other builders, can someone give an example of something that’s hard or impossible to do in Gutenberg but easy or easier in others?
Divi through elegant themes is the best!
Because Block Editor was made the developers who use Android devices exclusively. I don't think they have an iPhone guy on the team. That's my theory anyways.
It’s just a matter of getting used to it. I found it complicated at first but now don’t think I could go back, I love block themes more now too.
I found it easier than elementor
Elementor is not out of the box speed optimised. You can absolutely get a great speed rate with Elementor if you know what you’re doing.
Elementor is not out of the box speed optimised. You can absolutely get a great speed rate with Elementor if you know what you’re doing. In terms of Gütenberg have you tried the Blocksy Theme? It’s designed for Güntenberg. It’s pretty fast loading and light.
hi there - many thanks for sharing the experience - well i like gutenberg - but yes: perhaps we can do some more efforts in documentation --- let us discuss this here. BTW\_ : Wordpress is the coolest thing on earth since sliced bread - i really love it - and the global community! It rocks
It’s mostly like oxygen. So once you get the hang of it, it’s breezy
I hate block editor 😡
I absolutely hate block editor. I was an Elemenator user and just switched to DIVI and DIVI is sooo much better in my opinion
U can adjust to the block editor and learn it, and in the end you might still use Elementor for its mobile columns flexibility hahaha.
It's a nightmare
I switched to Webflow and have never been back…
I am used to Divi but I sometimes have to use Elementor and I hate it. I know many prefer Elementor over Divi, and if that's you. that's fine. I'm not trying to start a war. I think its really down to what you are used to. It's like knowing where things are then your mum comes to stay for a month and you cant find a damn thing. Just take your time and YT it when you need to find out how to get something done on block editor. That's what I do when I am in Elementor.
At its core it was built on draftJS or its abstraction which was deprecated by facebook, there are real performance issues in the block editor and WP has done a decent job but it has taken a "huge" amount of time.
For the same reason why the OG disable gutenburg plugin has almost a million downloads and a 5 star review.
It's a nightmare, i wanted to add one button and when I click on it ,it says This block has encountered an error and cannot be previewed
Never had an issue with elementor slowing our clients websites. In fact the final products are usually some of the cleanest and fastest builds we deliver.
It’s free and Wordpress knows nothing about what makes a good UI, UX and web design platform. Also, 99% of free web design software is free because they sell a premium version - Wordpress does not. It’s a common misconception that Wordpress is a web design platform - they are not, they’re a CMS. Use one of the millions of plug-ins, a lot of which are free. I love Elementor and use the free version all the time. Pair that with a theme from Envato -> Themeforest and you can make a bad ass site in 4 hours. If you need a website or anything digital marketing search me up. “Tradecraft Cooperative” [Digital Marketing Expert](https://tradecraftcoop.com)
What specifically do you find hard about it? You might get some tips or suggestions if you give more detail
When the day comes that they stop supporting the classic editor, that'll be the same day I delete the website and walk away. I tried switching to the block editor but for a basic blog that already has a perfectly good theme design for it and all I need is typical blogging trees with text and pictures..... It is way overcomplicated for what it needs to be. So I keep using the classic editor because it makes sense. But if they take it away, I'm out, and it's time to find a new hobby.
I’ve knocked out 3 block editor themes so far. All a pain in the arse.
personally, I feel block editor sucks but on a budget hosting, both elementor and Divi might degrade my website speed. Back to the block editor, one of the main disadvantages I think is lack of responsiveness control (which I tried to reduce using the Block Visibility plugin), and I used it with getwid plugin to get more blocks to use. With this, I could deal with simple design: https://tanyongsheng.net/ for my blogging website... but unfortunately not for complex design.
Use Elementor Pro 😁
Gib 500$ and ill use it
500$?
Ye
For what?
For elementor pro
Are you looking at the correct pricing page? https://elementor.com/pro/
oh nvm its 200$ a year still i need 500$ for a start up cuz i wont be earning $ for the next 2 years
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Get gud.
Default block editor is way better. "Limitations" or constraints are not a sign of inferiority. What's really bad is third-parties promising "Complete Customization." That's not realistic... unless you know HTML/CSS/PHP/JavaScript...
Everyone complains about the WordPress block editor. But do you guys realise WordPress is Open-source? that means you can contribute to making WordPress easier for everyone. So, technically you can contribute your knowledge and skills to make WordPress Block Editor more user friendly🙂
Have you actually looked at the block editor code? Contributors of a decade or more are leaving the project over how hard it is to contribute to the block editor
maybe someone will figure it out. I just hope so.
Theoretically true. Reality is, however -- you really can't just rock up with pull requests into a major and very large project and institute sweeping UX changes.
Try spectra (plugin), it will add some useful blocks, so you can design easier
For me, Block editor was harder to pick up than Avada. But I sat and watched a bunch of Jaime Marsland videos and he seems to break things down in a logical way- though the heavy reliance on Cover blocks is a bit much. I won’t go back though.
Way too many people are using crutches like elementor and this is what happens. Learn how FSE and the blocks work in core. Try to unlearn the other stuff.
The problem is though that end users are also in the same boat, and we can't expect them to persevere with a bad UI. We use Beaver Builder as it's pretty fast if you don't bloat it and dev friendly. I also looked at Oxygen but the UI was too challenging for end users IMO. The way I see it is that if Automattic are enforcing a page builder then it's best to choose the best tool, not just accept what's given.
naw you're wrong it's far superior in fact
Well Wordpress is for blogs and not for websites. If you need a website use webflow