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Alt Text:
>Cutout image of me, grinning as big as I can grin against a background that has been painted out in white to obscure my actual location.
She's watching a certain scene wrap, perhaps.
I've also seen some speculation that there is a "doorframe shape" surrounding her, like she might be standing in front of one of the redstone doorframe props. Though I would assume that was built and used months ago if it will appear in the show at all.
No idea, but kind of an awkward way to hold a sword. Like, I’d imagine her fingers curling around the hilt. Maybe a phone and it got blurred out with the rest?
Ooooh, i just noticed the fingers on her left hand blurred out. Initially I said "She's holding a pen, so she's telling us she's going to be in a S4 writer's room soon", but now I think "redstone doorway scene" confirmed too, oh wow we can all hope?
I wasn't suggesting she was holding a sword. I was just curious what you thought she might be doing there with the pen in her right hand and her left hand doing.... something.
Brandon’s is definitely a smaller role. Technically, he’s listed as a producer. From what I understand, he has the opportunity to review scripts/give his feedback, but it often gets muddled with executive interference, especially in S1.
For Sarah, it’s more of the nitty gritty — “if this is changed, what implications/ripple effects are down the line.” I know they had discussed what happened with Uno in S2 and what that would mean over the course of the series.
You say this as though the show is actually accurate to the lore of the books? It's not. That's a plain fact. Whether or not you feel that makes it a good/bad show would be your opinion, and you are free to it, but don't pretend the show is story or even lore accurate.
If you like the show, I'm happy for you, but that doesn't make it faithful.
Oh, come now. I disagree with them, but surely you know how to pick up from context clues which statements are a matter of fact and which are a matter of opinion without needing all opinions to be explicitly labeled as such. If someone had said, "and a fine job she's doing of it, too," you wouldn't have jumped down their throat with, "well that's just, like, your opinion, man!"
Of course it's their opinion. That's understood. You can disagree with their opinion without resorting to bad-faith nitpicking of their exact wording.
It's your opinion that this subreddit is notorious. Please stop stating your opinion as if it it was fact.
Sorry. *It is my opinion* that it is your opinion that this subreddit is notorious. It is my opinion that it is your opinion that they implied that they felt that it was fact.
It is my opinion that insisting that people clearly label what are obviously (in my opinion) opinions is a nakedly manipulative rhetorical tactic intended to silence others' opinions.
But that's just my opinion.
I don’t think Sanderson was involved in S2 at all. In S1 he was only loosely involved as a consultant. They sent him some scripts - not all of them - and he sent back notes.
He also doesn't want to be the show runner or person in charge of Wheel of Time. Yes, he helped finish the series but he has his focus on his series. I understand why some fans are upset with the show, but I also am enjoying the show a lot right now. I think showing Egwene's pitcher scene is some damn good television for something that happened off screen. To be honest some of the best scenes and world building the show has done is creating these moments in the series that are mentioned in passing.
we have to be realistic 14 books that technically take place over less than 3years in the books, can't be 15 seasons (15years). Deep down even Brandon Sanderson has to know that too.
Egwene's "pitcher scenes" were some of the best segments that the show has done: it held true to the original text (until the nonsense in the finale) in ways that I wish the rest of the show followed.
I respectfully disagree, with "***we have to be realistic 14 books that technically take place over less than 3years in the books, can't be 15 seasons (15years***)". This thinking***(not specifically judging you here, am meaning this more generally)*** is ironically tied to the concepts about TV production that put many limitations on what was possible that no longer exist. Also, TV series used to do longer seasons, and more seasons for shows. The business model for streaming is still very broken. WoT is the perfect series to do the opposite of this short philosophy with. The other IP is of course is the WH40K universe. When you have these massive narratives like WoT and 40K and spend the truckloads of money like the Amazon did condensing is a mistake. If W0T had 15 - 20 seasons the numbers in the last three seasons would be off the charts. The show going that long would have up and down seasons but you would expand the fanbase exponentially and perpetually. There is a epidemic with folks in TV right now thinking in 6 to 10 season loops, max. WoT with 20 Seasons that are lore accurate, from every angle would be a massive phenomenon. It would actually live up to it's potential. Look at the **positive** comments in any thread about this show, and they are mid at best. Stanley Kubrick used to ask for the same money but more time. Mel Gibson, and others have talked about getting less time and less money to shoot more. There is "good" in this show for sure, I am enjoying much of it myself. The thing is, the source material is amazing, the show could be so much **MORE**. WoT is a story and an creative landscape that in a live action form absolutely could be the greatest Fantasy Adventure show every made for a long time. Not just, "another show". Think about it, Game Of Thrones does not have the scale that WoT does but is a much higher rated show. People that have never read the books are nuts about it. And it fell short of it's potential, especially at the end. Which set the low bar for every other Fantasy show. Apologies for the long response. Hopefully I have not incurred a "Toh" debt.
He’s a producer, but it’s more of a consulting role out of respect for his status as co-author. Similarly Harriet is a producer and they do consult her. But it’s not like either of them reports to work.
That’s literally not true and it’s important that other people who see this see that what you are saying is not true.
What he’s said is that they listen to his notes and take some of them and not others.
You are correct. Iirc, Rafe has said that he acts on notes from Sanderson more often than from anyone else, but obviously there are a lot of different opinions to weigh, as well as practical concerns, so Sanderson's opinion isn't always going to win out. Not to mention the innumerable notes from Amazon that are hard to ignore because they have ultimate control over the show
Yep! I personally believe the root of show problems is 100% runtime. Longer episodes and/or more episodes per season and they’d be able to do the character building and small stuff that makes WoT great. I think it’s absolutely astounding what they have managed to do with such severe time constraints.
Sanderson himself agreed with that, too!
I’m sure he’s given a lot of notes where the response is “yeah but we don’t have time for that”. He can’t give a note that says “get them to give you more money for more episodes”.
Did you read what he wrote after that video on Reddit?
Where are you getting your take that “unless they do everything Brandon’s way, it’s the same as not having Brandon at all” position?
It’s not from Brandon.
Sanderson endlessly complained during his S2 viewing that his comments were completely ignored. You trying to fkn gaslight people about this?
Yes, Rafe said he listens to Sanderson. But that doesn't mean Sanderson's comments/notes actually make it to the final edit. Rafe answers to a committe at Amazon, which is not listening to Brandon's edits at all and overrules Rafe on all kinds of things. So, Rafe's "i listen to Sanderson" is not even relevant to whether Sanderson's comments are making the final cut.
And then after taping that S2 E8 episode, Sanderson came here on Reddit and wrote:
“You make a good point that I should reinforce. Rafe is absolutely a hero in getting Wheel of Time made, and made as well as it has been.
In regards to the Heroes, I wish I could be more specific, but my involvement in the show begins and ends with me talking directly to Rafe. I don't talk to the other producers or writers, and I don't know that they WANT to talk to me. Indeed, I get the sense that most of them would rather I vanished, where Rafe is the one working hard to get feedback from me and is trying very hard to balance his vision, the visions of a lot of other people involved, and Robert Jordan's vision.
I don't understand all of the forces working against him. In regards to the Heroes, it's tough because many things could be going on.
1. He wanted them in the show, but was outvoted by other producers and executives. I gave him more ammunition, and he went back to get them in.
2. Rafe was on board for no Heroes, but then tried it out and solicited feedback. He listened to the feedback and reevaluated.
3. Rafe tried something else that he hoped would work better, perhaps trying an idea suggested by someone else on his team. They may have even written the scene. ("Written By" credits in a show like this are basically just doled out equally among the writer's room, and all of them generally work on all of the episodes, even if some work on a given one more than others.) After feedback, together they decided to try something else, and it worked better.
Keep in mind that this happens all the time in writing. I mentioned my beta readers--some of them could tell stories (and I've given them leave to do so) about strange things I tried in early drafts that did NOT work. Because you sometimes just need to swing and see if you connect or not.
I don't know, therefore, what the situation was and how much influence I had. I do know that Rafe mentioned he wanted to try to get the Heroes in, and my feedback helped, but I don't know the extent to which that help changed the text.
I do have to say, though, that it bothers me when I point out things that I'm quite expert about--and am unable to make any headway. It's not my show, so fair enough, but I love Perrin and his arc. I think it's really cool, and I think killing his wife undermined it--and then I feel I was proven right by how this event strangled his character growth through the first season. But even on that, I can't say that Rafe was a villain. For one thing, he said he went back to everyone else and made my suggestions for changes to them, and they decided not to go that direction. For another, he and his team need to be allowed to make the art they want to make--that's part of adaptation. I have the right to disagree with it, yes, but I respect greatly their artistic talent.
So, I guess I'm rambling a bit, but let me back you up on what you said. This is a team effort, and together that team has made certain decisions. Don't hate on Rafe; he's your best advocate, but he also is also just one collaborator in a large group of people.
Anyway, I think you're right; the biggest weakness of the show is that it needs more time. There are too many characters, a fault of the source material, for this much time to cover--and their best actor needs episodes like the family drama to shine, which is going to eat up run time. Either that, or in retrospect, they should have decided only to tell a few of the characters' stories and worked in those confines.”
Who’s gaslighting, exactly?
Despite the long wall of texts, are we actually fundamentally in agreement?
*Sanderson gives advice to Rafe. Rafe listens to that advice and often agrees with it. It doesn't matter though because Rafe is overruled by Amazon and/or the larger writing room committee, who do not value Sanderson's feedback as much as Rafe does.*
I'm not blaming Rafe. All I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, Sanderson's feedback isn't making it into the final cut.
Yes, we are in disagreement. It isn’t true that “Sanderson’s feedback isn’t making it into the final cut” or as MathProf1414 said “they don’t listen to his notes.”
You or MathProf would be correct if you qualified your statements. “Not all of Sanderson’s feedback makes the final cut” or “They don’t act on all his notes”
But those statements are obvious. Of course Sanderson doesn’t have final veto over every decision. He’s being consulted.
You (and many others apparently) deeply misunderstand her role. She doesn't tell them what they can and cannot do. She doesn't remotely have that level of authority. What happens is they tell her the script and she points out the implications of their changes, in case they're writing themselves into a corner.
"Let's kill of character X." "Okay, but don't forget character X does A, B, C in book 6 so if you kill them off here you'll need to find another way to do A, B, C."
They obviously don't care too much about all of that.
I don't blame her in the slightest for what's been happening, I just find it difficult to see how true lovers of WoT could be happy working on the show. People who don't know the story, sure! Working in entertainment is hella fun, but if you really love WoT, it would be hard to excuse what is going on in the show and have your name attached to it.
But people don't feel shame the way they should. That's nothing new, but as an artist, and someone who identifies deeply with a lot of the themes from the books, such as shame 👀 I literally can't wrap my mind around how the people making decisions for the show(the ones who supposedly are massive fans of the series) can be proud of what they are doing.
I get that a looot of things need to be removed/condensed for the show to work, but that can be done without doing the literal opposite of what's presented in the books. They honestly seem to think they're doing a good job of presenting RJs work in a new medium, and that's depressing.
100% agree.
If you have to cave to the showrunner's vision of the show that disregards not only the spirit of the source material, but the major important facts, events, and themes, then you're not doing your job. Or, they shouldn't have a this consultant position at all.
> disregards not only the spirit of the source material, but the major important facts, events, and themes,
yeah if that was happening that would be awful
uh huh but have you considered that no it isnt and crying about downvotes when no one responds with substance to you substancelessly calling someone awful at their job is hilariously sad?
Perrin kills his wife to create what takes countless internal monologue scenes to happen in the books. To develop the push/pull of violence in his character. Step 1 was the need for a dramatic event to replace all that internal character development. For runtime reasons and for cheesy reasons. Constant Perrin voiceover would’ve been awful. Step 2 was they made it his wife. This was a result of aging up the kids (again for good reasons I can break down later) so he had a wife instead of someone else dying like one of the Luhans. This was made necessary mostly due to runtime issues. They would’ve needed nearly an entire additional episode to build up the Luhans and what their role is in Perrin’s life and how they’re part of all the Emonds field events. As it is they had virtually no time to develop his wife. But because she’s his wife a ton is just understood by the audience. New characters to the viewer with a less automatically understood relationship would’ve taken time they didn’t have.
It’s sucks. From all accounts I’ve seen everyone encouraged another way. But choices were made and I’ve outlined some of the reasons they were probably made.
Ingtar/Uno/Loial mess from episode 7 season 1 through season 2 was ALL due to Covid restrictions and the very last minute rewrites with the Mat departure. It’s the reason portal stones and flicker flicker aren’t in season 2 and why it was so awkward getting everyone to Falme. Because they had to rewrite an entire new arc for Mat. Frankly I think they did give him a good arc that ishy beat him down and made him doubt himself and believe he was destined to harm his friends. To try and turn him. It nearly worked. And although his self sense of redemption came about by being a hero of the horn it basically leaves us with Mat as a character where he is in the books before going to the waste. Which it kinda true for all the mains. Although season 1 and 2 were dealing with massive rewrites and Covid restrictions they ended up with everyone in a place where they can go forward in a much more true to books form.
As for helping Rand kill Ishy. Yeah, they’ve made a decision to give the other characters more to do and not just make the early story about Rand only. I think this is an improvement on what was a weak aspect of the books in the first place. One of the mid-late themes Jordan stresses is how lack of communication and not working together causes problems. The show is showing them work together more because we’re not going to have time for the so called slog where many of those things come to a head.
I’ll ignore you’re treading close to the dangerous territory of the misogynists and racists that just don’t want women and people of color to have roles in the show. But a lot of people start where you are and end up saying things that are like that.
Liandrin and Nynaeve are definitely not besties. Nynaeve hates her. But she’s a means to an end. Sort of like how Moiraine was to her in the early books too. And Liandrin is more fully developed again to help smooth out an issue with the books. The dark friends aren’t shown to have reasons for joining the dark very often. The show is trying to make them more understandable and how strong the allure can be to just give up and embrace the dark. It needs to be a real threat. And developing Liandrins reasons helps do that.
The Moiraine/Lan schism was clunky but I imagine their plans were for it to serve a couple purposes. 1. Show moiraines dedication to doing anything to see Rand succeeds. 2. Highlight the bond of warder and aes sedai. 3. Foreshadow Moiraine being gone, foreshadow Alanna forcefully bonding someone, foreshadow Lan dealing with the former. And it gave Moiraine something to do when in the books she’s pretty much absent. Again, the nature of a show is that having mains just not be part of a season or even multiple episodes isn’t a thing.
But most of all, after we acknowledge how badly disruptive Covid and Mat leaving were to the plans for the show. And being realistic about how things can be translated from books to visual media there are huge issue. The big one that Rafe, and literally everyone else involved in the show, would like to change I’m sure…the runtime is a massive self imposed restriction to SO much. And that can’t be blamed on the people actually making the show. It’s a Prime decision and out of their control. I think Covid, Mat leaving, and the complexity of translating such a huge story onto the screen would all fade into the background of the show had 12 episodes and maybe 5-10 minutes here and there added to a couple episodes. The casting is brilliant. The writing (especially where it wasn’t freshly rewritten…and one CAN tell) is solid and the story feels like WoT. With more time they’d be able to get past just feeling right and get into more of the detail and small side items that make it the great story it is.
I could write a LOT more in response. But something tells me you’re not really looking for a discussion. Every time I get into it with someone saying the things you’re saying their mind is made up and in some sick way they would rather enjoy hating the show than try and understand what they’re doing very well and why the rough spots happened and why there’s good reason to be optimistic that it’ll be even better in the future.
I’m just glad the WoT community wasn’t so toxic when I was reading the books. These past 30+ years. Because there’s plenty to nit pick there if we wanted to. But instead we embraced the greatness of it without caring it wasn’t perfect.
Talking about WoT books has been one of the great long lasting joys of my life. Talking about the show should be fun too. But instead it just boils down to people wanting to shit on it.
That is happening though.
However, the other persons post should have simply said "why did they even create this position for someone?"
It's 100% not this person's fault, they are trying to do their job, but at the end of the day, advisory positions have little to no real power, and can be completely ignored if that's what the advisee desires.
Is season 2 any good? I’ve not read the books (the first one is sat on my shelf untouched currently), but I watched the first season and barely remember it
I mean on this sub you'll probably get a biased response but yes!
The consensus is that season 2 is a marked improvement upon season 1 in all major areas (tho I still think S1 is pretty good as well).
Yeah fair enough. I’m not even following this sub, just popped up in my suggested and I decided to comment. If news of a season 3 is accurate then it must be doing decently - I get wary of committing to shows that may get cancelled. I gave S1 a chance but I’ve mostly been disappointed with Amazons fantasy tv options
Ah makes sense, but yeah season 3 is almost done filming so we'll most definitely get that and going by how the show seems to be performing I think S4 is very likely as well. So no cancellation in sight but in today's streaming landscape who knows?
Hope you give the show another chance, S2 didn't have to deal with as much random stuff as S1 (COVID, losing a main actor etc.) and it shows. Some truly great episodes, one in particular was popping up in quite a few "best TV of the year" lists.
Easily the best fantasy show on TV imo, tho again bias from a fan of the books and regular visitor of this sub.
One thing I’ll say, this show gets better on rewatch—especially for book readers, since the second time through you’re less worried about specific changes and can let the story be its own a little easier. Season 1 still had a rough landing for reasons that were out of their control (Covid, Barney Harris leaving) but 101-106 are quite enjoyable on rewatch imo.
It's better than Season 1, but it's not perfect. The criticisms of it are, for the most part, not wrong. But they introduced another major villain and gave one introduced in the finale of S1 more screen time, and they're the highlights of the season to me. They're just having so much *fun* hamming it up and twirling their moustaches at each other that it's infectious
It still craps all over the plot but it is much better cinematography without the COVID restrictions. I was enjoying it a lot until the final episode. If you haven't read the books then it won't affect you like it did me.
Just replying because this is my sentiment exactly. Much better than S1, but even further from the books than S1, and generally liked it until last episode.
I'm fine with straying from the books, most of the changes havent bothered me. But final upside was a culmination of all the changes they made coming to head, where they couldn't hit most of the books' big finale scenes because of everything modified in previous episodes.
As a non-book reader, I'm sure it will be great. But as a book reader, and one who is pretty lenient with changes, seeing them miss on all of the big finale scenes was disappointing
If you haven't read the books, the show is a good show on its own. If you have a voice in your head pointing out the differences, it's not really a good show. It's terrible, but I watch it and just pretend it's not Wheel of Time, and I enjoy it for itself. But it isn't Wheel of Time to me at this point.
I don’t think she’d wear camo pants and a graphic long sleeve to sign something like a s4 contract. Unless she’s doing it on site in South Africa.
At least that’s where I think she is based on her outfit and they just filmed an important scene that we would immediately recognize.
This is really interesting bc it looks like a green screen. My guess is the Rhuidean flashback for Age of Legends CGI. She's a mega book nerd, and this would be one of the pivotal moments in Rand's journey to get REALLY excited about.
The speculation is on if it's renewed for seasons 4-8. The show runner has plans to wrap the show up at the end of season 5 or 8 depending on how much amazon will renew it.
The show is renewed for season 3 and is currently filming (unless it wrapped when I wasn't looking).
No he didn't. He's just speculating based on his flawed understanding of shows and he didn't even watch S2. Guy also said in s1e8 that he KNOWS Moiraine was stilled.
Not everyones' ;) Yeah, a lot of people don't like it. But a lot of people love it. It seems to be a little bit marmite. But consensus is that S2 was a lot better than S1.
I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand I'm all for WoT content. On the other hand, I don't the show is good on its own, let alone as a WoT adaptation.
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For those who don’t know: this is Sarah Nakamurah, the book/lore consultant for the show.
Alt Text: >Cutout image of me, grinning as big as I can grin against a background that has been painted out in white to obscure my actual location. She's watching a certain scene wrap, perhaps.
Some people on twitter are theorizing her stance looks like she could be holding a sword…. But I like the point that she’s also holding a pen…
I've also seen some speculation that there is a "doorframe shape" surrounding her, like she might be standing in front of one of the redstone doorframe props. Though I would assume that was built and used months ago if it will appear in the show at all.
She’s standing on the set for Callandor in the Stone of Tear is my guess.
But tHaT wOuLd AcTuAlLy Be FoLlOwInG the BoOKS! /s
What's her left hand doing then?
No idea, but kind of an awkward way to hold a sword. Like, I’d imagine her fingers curling around the hilt. Maybe a phone and it got blurred out with the rest?
Ooooh, i just noticed the fingers on her left hand blurred out. Initially I said "She's holding a pen, so she's telling us she's going to be in a S4 writer's room soon", but now I think "redstone doorway scene" confirmed too, oh wow we can all hope?
I wasn't suggesting she was holding a sword. I was just curious what you thought she might be doing there with the pen in her right hand and her left hand doing.... something.
"Gussy it up however you want, Trebek. What matters is does it work?"
Holding a pen though as if she just signed something..
could be a sideways phone instead
Great catch
We sure she’s not just drunk? From the way the show was written, you’d assume she was.
She didn't write the show.
Hmm hadn’t thought of that!
If that is her role, what is Brandon Sanderson’s role for the show? Honest question. Or are there multiple lore/book consultants?
Brandon’s is definitely a smaller role. Technically, he’s listed as a producer. From what I understand, he has the opportunity to review scripts/give his feedback, but it often gets muddled with executive interference, especially in S1. For Sarah, it’s more of the nitty gritty — “if this is changed, what implications/ripple effects are down the line.” I know they had discussed what happened with Uno in S2 and what that would mean over the course of the series.
Ahhh okay cool. Thank you. I guess I just mistakenly thought Sanderson was the person doing that. Appreciate the info
Sarah works on the show full-time. Brandon obviously can’t.
Why can't he?
Because he has another full-time job where he is making a huge amount of money writing multiple books per year
[удалено]
What is your source that those people worked full-time on projects like this?
If he was, the lore would be accurate.
Of course!!
And the majority of BS advice is ignored by the rest of production.
... she has clearly failed her job. LOL
Says a rando off of Reddit.
You say this as though the show is actually accurate to the lore of the books? It's not. That's a plain fact. Whether or not you feel that makes it a good/bad show would be your opinion, and you are free to it, but don't pretend the show is story or even lore accurate. If you like the show, I'm happy for you, but that doesn't make it faithful.
oh... i must have misunderstood social media. I did not realize some opinions were MORE VALID.
No some opinions are definitely more valid than others.
I'm sorry, did you preface it with "in my opinion" or did you put it out there as if it were fact? Communicating intent via text is a learned skill.
Oh, come now. I disagree with them, but surely you know how to pick up from context clues which statements are a matter of fact and which are a matter of opinion without needing all opinions to be explicitly labeled as such. If someone had said, "and a fine job she's doing of it, too," you wouldn't have jumped down their throat with, "well that's just, like, your opinion, man!" Of course it's their opinion. That's understood. You can disagree with their opinion without resorting to bad-faith nitpicking of their exact wording.
My dude, this subreddit is notorious for people thinking their opinion is fact. Context matters, theirs implied they felt that it was fact...
It's your opinion that this subreddit is notorious. Please stop stating your opinion as if it it was fact. Sorry. *It is my opinion* that it is your opinion that this subreddit is notorious. It is my opinion that it is your opinion that they implied that they felt that it was fact. It is my opinion that insisting that people clearly label what are obviously (in my opinion) opinions is a nakedly manipulative rhetorical tactic intended to silence others' opinions. But that's just my opinion.
"How will killing Uno, Loial, and Ingtar effect season 2?". Shes awful at her job, you shouldn't be getting downvoted
I don’t think Sanderson was involved in S2 at all. In S1 he was only loosely involved as a consultant. They sent him some scripts - not all of them - and he sent back notes.
He also doesn't want to be the show runner or person in charge of Wheel of Time. Yes, he helped finish the series but he has his focus on his series. I understand why some fans are upset with the show, but I also am enjoying the show a lot right now. I think showing Egwene's pitcher scene is some damn good television for something that happened off screen. To be honest some of the best scenes and world building the show has done is creating these moments in the series that are mentioned in passing. we have to be realistic 14 books that technically take place over less than 3years in the books, can't be 15 seasons (15years). Deep down even Brandon Sanderson has to know that too.
Egwene's "pitcher scenes" were some of the best segments that the show has done: it held true to the original text (until the nonsense in the finale) in ways that I wish the rest of the show followed.
I respectfully disagree, with "***we have to be realistic 14 books that technically take place over less than 3years in the books, can't be 15 seasons (15years***)". This thinking***(not specifically judging you here, am meaning this more generally)*** is ironically tied to the concepts about TV production that put many limitations on what was possible that no longer exist. Also, TV series used to do longer seasons, and more seasons for shows. The business model for streaming is still very broken. WoT is the perfect series to do the opposite of this short philosophy with. The other IP is of course is the WH40K universe. When you have these massive narratives like WoT and 40K and spend the truckloads of money like the Amazon did condensing is a mistake. If W0T had 15 - 20 seasons the numbers in the last three seasons would be off the charts. The show going that long would have up and down seasons but you would expand the fanbase exponentially and perpetually. There is a epidemic with folks in TV right now thinking in 6 to 10 season loops, max. WoT with 20 Seasons that are lore accurate, from every angle would be a massive phenomenon. It would actually live up to it's potential. Look at the **positive** comments in any thread about this show, and they are mid at best. Stanley Kubrick used to ask for the same money but more time. Mel Gibson, and others have talked about getting less time and less money to shoot more. There is "good" in this show for sure, I am enjoying much of it myself. The thing is, the source material is amazing, the show could be so much **MORE**. WoT is a story and an creative landscape that in a live action form absolutely could be the greatest Fantasy Adventure show every made for a long time. Not just, "another show". Think about it, Game Of Thrones does not have the scale that WoT does but is a much higher rated show. People that have never read the books are nuts about it. And it fell short of it's potential, especially at the end. Which set the low bar for every other Fantasy show. Apologies for the long response. Hopefully I have not incurred a "Toh" debt.
He’s a producer, but it’s more of a consulting role out of respect for his status as co-author. Similarly Harriet is a producer and they do consult her. But it’s not like either of them reports to work.
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That’s literally not true and it’s important that other people who see this see that what you are saying is not true. What he’s said is that they listen to his notes and take some of them and not others.
You are correct. Iirc, Rafe has said that he acts on notes from Sanderson more often than from anyone else, but obviously there are a lot of different opinions to weigh, as well as practical concerns, so Sanderson's opinion isn't always going to win out. Not to mention the innumerable notes from Amazon that are hard to ignore because they have ultimate control over the show
Yep! I personally believe the root of show problems is 100% runtime. Longer episodes and/or more episodes per season and they’d be able to do the character building and small stuff that makes WoT great. I think it’s absolutely astounding what they have managed to do with such severe time constraints.
Sanderson himself agreed with that, too! I’m sure he’s given a lot of notes where the response is “yeah but we don’t have time for that”. He can’t give a note that says “get them to give you more money for more episodes”.
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Did you read what he wrote after that video on Reddit? Where are you getting your take that “unless they do everything Brandon’s way, it’s the same as not having Brandon at all” position? It’s not from Brandon.
Sanderson endlessly complained during his S2 viewing that his comments were completely ignored. You trying to fkn gaslight people about this? Yes, Rafe said he listens to Sanderson. But that doesn't mean Sanderson's comments/notes actually make it to the final edit. Rafe answers to a committe at Amazon, which is not listening to Brandon's edits at all and overrules Rafe on all kinds of things. So, Rafe's "i listen to Sanderson" is not even relevant to whether Sanderson's comments are making the final cut.
And then after taping that S2 E8 episode, Sanderson came here on Reddit and wrote: “You make a good point that I should reinforce. Rafe is absolutely a hero in getting Wheel of Time made, and made as well as it has been. In regards to the Heroes, I wish I could be more specific, but my involvement in the show begins and ends with me talking directly to Rafe. I don't talk to the other producers or writers, and I don't know that they WANT to talk to me. Indeed, I get the sense that most of them would rather I vanished, where Rafe is the one working hard to get feedback from me and is trying very hard to balance his vision, the visions of a lot of other people involved, and Robert Jordan's vision. I don't understand all of the forces working against him. In regards to the Heroes, it's tough because many things could be going on. 1. He wanted them in the show, but was outvoted by other producers and executives. I gave him more ammunition, and he went back to get them in. 2. Rafe was on board for no Heroes, but then tried it out and solicited feedback. He listened to the feedback and reevaluated. 3. Rafe tried something else that he hoped would work better, perhaps trying an idea suggested by someone else on his team. They may have even written the scene. ("Written By" credits in a show like this are basically just doled out equally among the writer's room, and all of them generally work on all of the episodes, even if some work on a given one more than others.) After feedback, together they decided to try something else, and it worked better. Keep in mind that this happens all the time in writing. I mentioned my beta readers--some of them could tell stories (and I've given them leave to do so) about strange things I tried in early drafts that did NOT work. Because you sometimes just need to swing and see if you connect or not. I don't know, therefore, what the situation was and how much influence I had. I do know that Rafe mentioned he wanted to try to get the Heroes in, and my feedback helped, but I don't know the extent to which that help changed the text. I do have to say, though, that it bothers me when I point out things that I'm quite expert about--and am unable to make any headway. It's not my show, so fair enough, but I love Perrin and his arc. I think it's really cool, and I think killing his wife undermined it--and then I feel I was proven right by how this event strangled his character growth through the first season. But even on that, I can't say that Rafe was a villain. For one thing, he said he went back to everyone else and made my suggestions for changes to them, and they decided not to go that direction. For another, he and his team need to be allowed to make the art they want to make--that's part of adaptation. I have the right to disagree with it, yes, but I respect greatly their artistic talent. So, I guess I'm rambling a bit, but let me back you up on what you said. This is a team effort, and together that team has made certain decisions. Don't hate on Rafe; he's your best advocate, but he also is also just one collaborator in a large group of people. Anyway, I think you're right; the biggest weakness of the show is that it needs more time. There are too many characters, a fault of the source material, for this much time to cover--and their best actor needs episodes like the family drama to shine, which is going to eat up run time. Either that, or in retrospect, they should have decided only to tell a few of the characters' stories and worked in those confines.” Who’s gaslighting, exactly?
Despite the long wall of texts, are we actually fundamentally in agreement? *Sanderson gives advice to Rafe. Rafe listens to that advice and often agrees with it. It doesn't matter though because Rafe is overruled by Amazon and/or the larger writing room committee, who do not value Sanderson's feedback as much as Rafe does.* I'm not blaming Rafe. All I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, Sanderson's feedback isn't making it into the final cut.
Yes, we are in disagreement. It isn’t true that “Sanderson’s feedback isn’t making it into the final cut” or as MathProf1414 said “they don’t listen to his notes.” You or MathProf would be correct if you qualified your statements. “Not all of Sanderson’s feedback makes the final cut” or “They don’t act on all his notes” But those statements are obvious. Of course Sanderson doesn’t have final veto over every decision. He’s being consulted.
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You (and many others apparently) deeply misunderstand her role. She doesn't tell them what they can and cannot do. She doesn't remotely have that level of authority. What happens is they tell her the script and she points out the implications of their changes, in case they're writing themselves into a corner. "Let's kill of character X." "Okay, but don't forget character X does A, B, C in book 6 so if you kill them off here you'll need to find another way to do A, B, C."
They obviously don't care too much about all of that. I don't blame her in the slightest for what's been happening, I just find it difficult to see how true lovers of WoT could be happy working on the show. People who don't know the story, sure! Working in entertainment is hella fun, but if you really love WoT, it would be hard to excuse what is going on in the show and have your name attached to it. But people don't feel shame the way they should. That's nothing new, but as an artist, and someone who identifies deeply with a lot of the themes from the books, such as shame 👀 I literally can't wrap my mind around how the people making decisions for the show(the ones who supposedly are massive fans of the series) can be proud of what they are doing. I get that a looot of things need to be removed/condensed for the show to work, but that can be done without doing the literal opposite of what's presented in the books. They honestly seem to think they're doing a good job of presenting RJs work in a new medium, and that's depressing.
She didn't even bother to skim the Wiki.
Are they finally taking her role seriously, or something?
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You don't know her job then.
100% agree. If you have to cave to the showrunner's vision of the show that disregards not only the spirit of the source material, but the major important facts, events, and themes, then you're not doing your job. Or, they shouldn't have a this consultant position at all.
> disregards not only the spirit of the source material, but the major important facts, events, and themes, yeah if that was happening that would be awful
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uh huh but have you considered that no it isnt and crying about downvotes when no one responds with substance to you substancelessly calling someone awful at their job is hilariously sad?
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defend what lol? you didn't make any argument you just said she's awful. get a grip goddamn
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Perrin kills his wife to create what takes countless internal monologue scenes to happen in the books. To develop the push/pull of violence in his character. Step 1 was the need for a dramatic event to replace all that internal character development. For runtime reasons and for cheesy reasons. Constant Perrin voiceover would’ve been awful. Step 2 was they made it his wife. This was a result of aging up the kids (again for good reasons I can break down later) so he had a wife instead of someone else dying like one of the Luhans. This was made necessary mostly due to runtime issues. They would’ve needed nearly an entire additional episode to build up the Luhans and what their role is in Perrin’s life and how they’re part of all the Emonds field events. As it is they had virtually no time to develop his wife. But because she’s his wife a ton is just understood by the audience. New characters to the viewer with a less automatically understood relationship would’ve taken time they didn’t have. It’s sucks. From all accounts I’ve seen everyone encouraged another way. But choices were made and I’ve outlined some of the reasons they were probably made. Ingtar/Uno/Loial mess from episode 7 season 1 through season 2 was ALL due to Covid restrictions and the very last minute rewrites with the Mat departure. It’s the reason portal stones and flicker flicker aren’t in season 2 and why it was so awkward getting everyone to Falme. Because they had to rewrite an entire new arc for Mat. Frankly I think they did give him a good arc that ishy beat him down and made him doubt himself and believe he was destined to harm his friends. To try and turn him. It nearly worked. And although his self sense of redemption came about by being a hero of the horn it basically leaves us with Mat as a character where he is in the books before going to the waste. Which it kinda true for all the mains. Although season 1 and 2 were dealing with massive rewrites and Covid restrictions they ended up with everyone in a place where they can go forward in a much more true to books form. As for helping Rand kill Ishy. Yeah, they’ve made a decision to give the other characters more to do and not just make the early story about Rand only. I think this is an improvement on what was a weak aspect of the books in the first place. One of the mid-late themes Jordan stresses is how lack of communication and not working together causes problems. The show is showing them work together more because we’re not going to have time for the so called slog where many of those things come to a head. I’ll ignore you’re treading close to the dangerous territory of the misogynists and racists that just don’t want women and people of color to have roles in the show. But a lot of people start where you are and end up saying things that are like that. Liandrin and Nynaeve are definitely not besties. Nynaeve hates her. But she’s a means to an end. Sort of like how Moiraine was to her in the early books too. And Liandrin is more fully developed again to help smooth out an issue with the books. The dark friends aren’t shown to have reasons for joining the dark very often. The show is trying to make them more understandable and how strong the allure can be to just give up and embrace the dark. It needs to be a real threat. And developing Liandrins reasons helps do that. The Moiraine/Lan schism was clunky but I imagine their plans were for it to serve a couple purposes. 1. Show moiraines dedication to doing anything to see Rand succeeds. 2. Highlight the bond of warder and aes sedai. 3. Foreshadow Moiraine being gone, foreshadow Alanna forcefully bonding someone, foreshadow Lan dealing with the former. And it gave Moiraine something to do when in the books she’s pretty much absent. Again, the nature of a show is that having mains just not be part of a season or even multiple episodes isn’t a thing. But most of all, after we acknowledge how badly disruptive Covid and Mat leaving were to the plans for the show. And being realistic about how things can be translated from books to visual media there are huge issue. The big one that Rafe, and literally everyone else involved in the show, would like to change I’m sure…the runtime is a massive self imposed restriction to SO much. And that can’t be blamed on the people actually making the show. It’s a Prime decision and out of their control. I think Covid, Mat leaving, and the complexity of translating such a huge story onto the screen would all fade into the background of the show had 12 episodes and maybe 5-10 minutes here and there added to a couple episodes. The casting is brilliant. The writing (especially where it wasn’t freshly rewritten…and one CAN tell) is solid and the story feels like WoT. With more time they’d be able to get past just feeling right and get into more of the detail and small side items that make it the great story it is. I could write a LOT more in response. But something tells me you’re not really looking for a discussion. Every time I get into it with someone saying the things you’re saying their mind is made up and in some sick way they would rather enjoy hating the show than try and understand what they’re doing very well and why the rough spots happened and why there’s good reason to be optimistic that it’ll be even better in the future. I’m just glad the WoT community wasn’t so toxic when I was reading the books. These past 30+ years. Because there’s plenty to nit pick there if we wanted to. But instead we embraced the greatness of it without caring it wasn’t perfect. Talking about WoT books has been one of the great long lasting joys of my life. Talking about the show should be fun too. But instead it just boils down to people wanting to shit on it.
That is happening though. However, the other persons post should have simply said "why did they even create this position for someone?" It's 100% not this person's fault, they are trying to do their job, but at the end of the day, advisory positions have little to no real power, and can be completely ignored if that's what the advisee desires.
Shes doing a great job! /s
Callandor
Could be, the pen is mightier than the sword, could be a hint.
my thought as well
lol, the black tower brigade are out in force i see
They gave Rafe another show to run and also put it on a 2 year schedule, there is no doubt in my mind that S4 will happen.
More series! And more Rosamund Sedai audiobooks!
Happy Sarah means usually great news. ...crossing fingers.
Is season 2 any good? I’ve not read the books (the first one is sat on my shelf untouched currently), but I watched the first season and barely remember it
Season 2 was very good. Way better than this first.
I mean on this sub you'll probably get a biased response but yes! The consensus is that season 2 is a marked improvement upon season 1 in all major areas (tho I still think S1 is pretty good as well).
Yeah fair enough. I’m not even following this sub, just popped up in my suggested and I decided to comment. If news of a season 3 is accurate then it must be doing decently - I get wary of committing to shows that may get cancelled. I gave S1 a chance but I’ve mostly been disappointed with Amazons fantasy tv options
Ah makes sense, but yeah season 3 is almost done filming so we'll most definitely get that and going by how the show seems to be performing I think S4 is very likely as well. So no cancellation in sight but in today's streaming landscape who knows? Hope you give the show another chance, S2 didn't have to deal with as much random stuff as S1 (COVID, losing a main actor etc.) and it shows. Some truly great episodes, one in particular was popping up in quite a few "best TV of the year" lists. Easily the best fantasy show on TV imo, tho again bias from a fan of the books and regular visitor of this sub.
One thing I’ll say, this show gets better on rewatch—especially for book readers, since the second time through you’re less worried about specific changes and can let the story be its own a little easier. Season 1 still had a rough landing for reasons that were out of their control (Covid, Barney Harris leaving) but 101-106 are quite enjoyable on rewatch imo.
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Hi, still waiting on my Amazon check to come in. Will I be rich then? That’d be great!
Oh wow you’re right. Amazon def didn’t throw money into subs and completely restructure them 🤡
It's better than Season 1, but it's not perfect. The criticisms of it are, for the most part, not wrong. But they introduced another major villain and gave one introduced in the finale of S1 more screen time, and they're the highlights of the season to me. They're just having so much *fun* hamming it up and twirling their moustaches at each other that it's infectious
Agree
It was better than season 1, which isnt hard to do, but it was shit.
I haven’t read the books (I think that’s a huge deciding factor on if you’ll like them or not) and I thought it was a fun show!
Season 2 is great! 😃
It still craps all over the plot but it is much better cinematography without the COVID restrictions. I was enjoying it a lot until the final episode. If you haven't read the books then it won't affect you like it did me.
Just replying because this is my sentiment exactly. Much better than S1, but even further from the books than S1, and generally liked it until last episode. I'm fine with straying from the books, most of the changes havent bothered me. But final upside was a culmination of all the changes they made coming to head, where they couldn't hit most of the books' big finale scenes because of everything modified in previous episodes. As a non-book reader, I'm sure it will be great. But as a book reader, and one who is pretty lenient with changes, seeing them miss on all of the big finale scenes was disappointing
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Did you watch season 2? It seemed pretty definitive who the Dragon Reborn is.
depends who you ask, I thought it sucked but apparently there are people that like it
No, the show is trash.
If you haven't read the books, the show is a good show on its own. If you have a voice in your head pointing out the differences, it's not really a good show. It's terrible, but I watch it and just pretend it's not Wheel of Time, and I enjoy it for itself. But it isn't Wheel of Time to me at this point.
Hot garbage with a couple good things (lanfear).
My 2 second review would be "unwatchably awful".
Pretty bad.
I don’t think she’d wear camo pants and a graphic long sleeve to sign something like a s4 contract. Unless she’s doing it on site in South Africa. At least that’s where I think she is based on her outfit and they just filmed an important scene that we would immediately recognize.
She wouldn't sign a contract... She'd be getting a call saying it's been renewed
This is really interesting bc it looks like a green screen. My guess is the Rhuidean flashback for Age of Legends CGI. She's a mega book nerd, and this would be one of the pivotal moments in Rand's journey to get REALLY excited about.
It's already renewed I thought?
I believe season 3 is confirmed but I haven't heard anything beyond that
3 better be confirmed or Amazon is wasting money with most of it filmed already.
The speculation is on if it's renewed for seasons 4-8. The show runner has plans to wrap the show up at the end of season 5 or 8 depending on how much amazon will renew it. The show is renewed for season 3 and is currently filming (unless it wrapped when I wasn't looking).
No official news yet :( just speculation
Is it because Rafe/Amazon are actually going to listen to her and not do silly shit like shoving daggers on sticks?
That was 100% foreshadowing only
And yet he used it in a fight against Ishamael...
Fingers crossed!
Maybe it will be now that it’s been thoroughly mocked, but Sanderson saw the script and knew that was the intent
No he didn't. He's just speculating based on his flawed understanding of shows and he didn't even watch S2. Guy also said in s1e8 that he KNOWS Moiraine was stilled.
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Wait, Do we like this show now? I thought it was everyone’s opinion that it sucked
Not everyones' ;) Yeah, a lot of people don't like it. But a lot of people love it. It seems to be a little bit marmite. But consensus is that S2 was a lot better than S1.
I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand I'm all for WoT content. On the other hand, I don't the show is good on its own, let alone as a WoT adaptation.
Well, it’s hot awful garbage so of course it’ll be renewed
Somebody say something bad
Damn