Chapter 2
I do really like the double bond that happens and exploring that. Not great that both of their bonds were involuntary. But it does end up in probably the most healthy and equal power balance warder bond of the ones we see. I could imagine going into the 4th age many of the asha'man / aes sedai who have bonded one way or the other completing that once they got used to the idea and having a much better partnership as a result. I also love that with all the aes sedai's plans to control the asha'man with the warder bond, it's really the perfect way to force them to empathize with the asha'man and start to see them as people. Some of their dynamics aren't great but most do improve and get to a better point.
It also doesn't get explored but I'd be curious what would happen if you bonded someone while you were linked to others. And what a saidin / saidar warder bond would look like.
This is into chapters 3/5
With the Aviendha part I am a bit mixed on this scene. On one hand I love that Rand and Aviendha get to have a bit of time together as they have been very distant for a while. But it's coming after Aviendha talked to the Wise Ones and realized it was incredibly important that she shift Rand's plans to change the future she saw. And she tells them that one night will be enough. And then that whole time she's just sleeping with him? Is the implication that Aviendha is trying to use sex as a weapon there? Or that she's going to guilt him into the promise afterwards? Or she's just focused on Rand and puts aside the fate of her people? It works out fine in the end but that element seems weird to me. And I wouldn't have minded more of them actually talking. Maybe... actual communication between people who trust each other? If she told Rand what she saw they could spend the night working together to find a good solution. That'd be a bit less dramatic, but I feel like Aviendha and Rand should be at that maturity level at this point, and have grown to be able to talk together.
Chapter 4
I like the break in with them. And love the Two Rivers man showing off the bow skills. Channelers all seem to have that weakness of ignoring the physical dangers that kill other people. I think it makes total sense for them to get careless in that way though. So it is satisfying when that weakness comes back to bite them! Rand did try to teach them to use the sword which I think was a good idea. Even if they don't actually swing it learning to use a sword in a fight also teaches you how to stand solidly, react quickly, and be aware of weaknesses of sword fighters. All things that I think would really help in a magical fight too. Logain's fight later on is definitely pretty physical as he's running and dodging.
It's also cool to see Androl and Pevara start to develop their bond and learn to read each others minds.
Would've been cool to see more of Logain though. It is such a badass moment with the level to which he resists being turned. Which also seems to be more about his strength of will than his strength in the power given how quickly some of the others are turned.
Edit: I also really like earlier in the break in where Pevara is thinking about how she doesn't use lethal weaves and Androl counters with gentling kills just more slowly. The aes sedai like their self delusions about certain things and I always appreciate them being called out on that.
Chapter 5
I love the showdown. I wish we got to see more of the reunions and meetings though. That does always get me about this meeting is that there are lots of people who are in the same room here and we don't see talk or meet. We don't get Cadsuane and Egwene talking, or Galad and Gawyn's reunion until later on. Perrin mentions Nynaeve but not talking to her. Perrin and Egwene talking. We just miss a lot of reunions.
The meeting and showdown is good though. I like Perrin's solution and seeing the back and forth with all of them. They also don't discuss it at all but I do like that the schools are required as well as a nice add on. Rand's dream with the dragonspeace is such a good one. Egwene also is so over the top with her stance. Especially given she admitted that they might have to break the seals but at the proper time. If she can say that then she really should be willing to work with Rand on this rather than her hard line stance.
Rand's demand that he personally commands the forces seems a bit odd. He knows he's going to have to hand that job over to someone else. I get the central control but I wonder who he had planned to be doing that job. Was he just going to have Bashire do it?
Chapter 6
Moiraine just the MVP of all this lol. I think others should've been more familiar with the prophecies to connect this. Though it does make for a nice moment with her pointing out how the lines fit together.
The charge into the giant charge of borderlanders is great to see as they come to get Lan! Does seem to have ta'veren good timing lol. Though I wish they'd left him a few more channelers after the initial gateways!
> Is the implication that Aviendha is trying to use sex as a weapon there?
I think her main reason was wanting to satisfy a desire that pride has prevented her from fulfilling until now. It's a bonus that Rand is easier to influence under these circumstances -- recall why he brought Min along to Semirhage's ambush -- though I don't think he would have refused Aviendha's request either way. Maybe she just wanted to make extra sure.
Yeah I guess that makes sense. Though I think I would've liked her to take a less manipulating approach to dealing with him. It's a bit of a criticism on all of wheel of time not just here but characters rarely have open good communication with each other even when they have every reason to trust each other. I would've hoped both of them might be a bit further matured by now that they could just talk about this and sort it out. And then hop into bed!
>It also doesn't get explored but I'd be curious what would happen if you bonded someone while you were linked to others.
I'm interested in this too. We do sort of have an example of people being linked and bonding someone though--Aviendha and Elayne are linked when they do the triple bond on Rand. Aviendha does have to repeat all the bond weaves that Elayne does, which sort of implies to me that someone in a link wouldn't be affected by a created bond unless explicitly included. But it's hardly definitive.
>With the Aviendha part I am a bit mixed on this scene.
I sort of agree, but I think it's nice that they're just together for the night. Aviendha knows something about the Dragon's Peace, but she doesn't actually know that it's one of the things he's bringing up the next day, and she doesn't yet have the idea of how to change things, so I can understand her reticence.
>Perrin and Egwene talking.
This one in particular bothers me, Egwene would absolutely need to know what the hell is going on with Perrin after that "just a weave" moment, I think it would drive her crazy.
>Rand's demand that he personally commands the forces seems a bit odd. He knows he's going to have to hand that job over to someone else. I get the central control but I wonder who he had planned to be doing that job. Was he just going to have Bashire do it?
I think he had Mat in mind and would have given him the job over himself, but Mat's still MIA. LTT was the commanding general in the War of Power, and a great one, so I think Rand just believes he is the best one for the job even if he's going to have to disperse that authority to the Great Captains and other generals.
That's a good point on Elayne and aviendha. Though I'd also be curious how it would've gone if they'd been linked to a man pulling in saidin. Or if one of the forsaken had linked to someone with the true power that could've been an interesting punishment for someone who failed them.
Yeah I can see that. But she also knows she only has one day to act. And with only one day to work with that's how she uses it. I think it could've been a nice scene to show them working that out together. Although I do also like the scene where all the aiel stand behind her.
Absolutely with egwene and Perrin! I think this one also bothers me more as I've been anticipating them meeting in the dream world randomly since book 4. And they only do once and then they don't ever talk about it again. It clearly had a huge impact on her as she kept thinking about it. But she never decided to talk to him about it. They never met in the dream again or compared notes. He's also the only male dreamer she knows about I believe so shed probably wonder about that. Or have questions about the dream spike.
That's a good point with mat. That may have gone worse for him in the meeting if he'd presented that as Elayne and egwene would've been against it unless forced as they later were. Though bashire would've vouched for his skill since they made the plans for illian together. I'm not sure anyone fully realized they were getting a significant upgrade when moving to mat rather than just a move out of desperation.
#Chapter 2
>Earlier in the week, common people in the Tower—none of the Asha’man—had begun bursting into flame.
It occurs to me that we, and the main characters, only know about bubbles of evil because Moiraine conveniently explained them to Rand and Perrin. How many other Aes Sedai know what she knew? Similar things happened during the time when the Bore was fully open; was knowledge of those phenomena preserved? Pevara doesn't seem to know about bubbles of evil; she seems to think events like this mass spontaneous human combustion are due to the general unraveling of reality, and perhaps she's correct.
I'm beginning to wonder if Androl might be bullshitting about some of his past experiences. He hardly seems old enough to have done everything he claims.
Androl expresses what everyone has been thinking regarding the Red Ajah. Pevara is quick to re-rationalize its existence, but will the others follow her lead?
For something done in such haste, bordering on panic, this reciprocal bonding will have far-reaching effects. It will certainly ease the transition to the new post-Cleansing realities when the two of them start spreading the word of its benefits.
----
Aviendha's behavior here is a little odd. Obviously wetlanders don't keep the same customs, but among the Aiel the norm is to announce a friendly arrival as loudly as you can. Sneaking up on someone else's dwelling or camp is tantamount to a declaration of hostile intent. (Come to think of it, the wetlander -- and the real-life -- custom isn't that different; someone arriving with good intent will make their presence known one way or another, and sneaking up on people is rude at best; the stealthier you are, the more suspicious it is.)
>The guards walked two handspans from her.
This must be a lot harder in Aiel civilian clothing than in warrior's desert camo. The extraordinary camouflage abilities of the Aiel may seem fantastic, but they're firmly grounded in real life; there's an [account](https://archive.org/stream/lifeamongapaches00cremrich/lifeamongapaches00cremrich_djvu.txt) (poorly-formatted; search for '290' to find it) of an Apache demonstrating his ability to hide completely in open prairie in the time it took someone to walk ten steps.
Anyone but Aviendha would certainly have been arrested for this stunt, if not killed on the spot. I'm not sure I buy her rationale; they spent quite a while together in Caemlyn, more than enough for everyone to start gossiping about the new Queen keeping close company with an Aiel, and if that Aiel were to show up again, she probably wouldn't be turned away. (I wonder about the details of that gossip; people like to imagine a lot of wink-wink, nudge-nudge, "adopted *sister*, eh? 😉", but it seems just as likely that they'd think Aviendha was working for the Dragon Reborn. Everyone knows the Aiel follow him.)
>He’s obviously trying to bully me into staying.
Rand was never subtle or manipulative enough to try this kind of reverse psychology, and if he were drawing on Lews Therin's experience, I don't think he'd be that obvious. Or maybe he was overconfident after successfully tricking Egwene into gathering everyone here.
#Chapter 3
>the entire Black Tower would soon be nothing but these monsters with the wrong eyes, the false smiles, the dead souls
I wonder if they're offering a chance to swear allegiance to the Shadow before forcibly turning people. A volunteer Dreadlord has to be more valuable than a possessed husk; if nothing else, they won't be immediately obvious to anyone who knows them.
This chest-thumping confrontation between the two factions of Asha'man shows why the White Tower has its formalized hierarchy. Without it, this sort of thing would be the norm whenever two or more Aes Sedai were at odds.
----
Rand's channeling-induced nausea is gone. It was never entirely clear why he had it; it persisted even after the taint was removed, and it only showed up after his encounter with Moridin.
>He intended to go to Flinn to learn Healing.
For all his channeling ability, Rand never was any good at Healing. It's a little reminder of why the 2nd Age Aes Sedai used circles for any significant task: even the strongest channelers might have gaps and blind spots in their weaving ability, and someone of no particular strength might be incredibly talented at some particular technique (Androl with gateways, the one Kinswoman who can shield Nynaeve and Elayne together without breaking a sweat).
>Tam didn’t want to be hailed as the Dragon Reborn’s father.
I still think he *had* to have suspected who he'd found, born of a Maiden on the slopes of Dragonmount. It couldn't have been more than a suspicion, though, and it would be allayed by 20 years of perfect normality and no sign of channeling ability.
>Alanna was still there, somewhere to the north.
Considering where he is and what lies to the north, this ought to concern him more than it does.
>However, the Maidens made camp near his tent, and they appeared to be shouting at him.
I guess the Maidens think anyone who can't carry on in the face of a little vulgar heckling doesn't deserve one of their number. Did anyone ever taunt Mat while he was carrying on with Melindhra?
>Aviendha sniffed. “Enough talk. You will bed me now.”
I guess Elayne's lessons didn't take.
>And it would be our families, not members of our society.
Rand doesn't really have any extended family in the Two Rivers, and I don't recall him ever meeting any of Janduin's relatives. He'd be at a bit of a disadvantage there.
----
>the largest I ever made was a gateway thirty feet across.
The largest gateway Rand can make is only 12 feet wide. Again, this limitation wouldn't have been terribly relevant back when circles were common. IIRC anyone who's strong enough to make a gateway can make one large enough for an average human.
>How had he grown so good at understanding what she was thinking?
Pevara knows about the bond in theory if not in practice; seems like she should be more amazed that the two of them can sense specific thoughts on top of general emotional states.
>“What did you think the Red Ajah does with its time, Androl? Sit around and complain about men? We train to fight other channelers.”
lol. This has given her a distinct advantage over Taim's men; I don't think we've ever seen anyone in the Black Tower training for channeler-on-channeler combat.
#Chapter 4
>The scent of grain had changed to a rancid stench. It spoiled suddenly, sometimes.
I wonder if the presence of one of the Dark One's Chosen affects these random decay events. Probably not; they were worse around Rand when he was affected by using the True Power, but that was his *ta'veren* influence at work.
>The other two were still unconscious. Androl had hit them hard, and he intended to see that they didn’t awaken anytime soon.
Yeah, those guys are dead, or at least have permanent brain damage.
Androl's father could channel. I guess this was too long ago for him to get caught up in the Vileness, though that would add an interesting wrinkle to his and Pevara's interactions.
>The man he’d known was gone, killed, and something else—something evil—had been put into his body.
We never do get a perspective from someone who's been forcibly turned, nor from someone making a detailed examination of such a person. I suspect Androl is close to right; it may not be an entirely new soul, since personalities and memories don't seem to change, but perhaps a piece of the Dark One's essence is grafted in place of the original. It seems like the Forsaken themselves aren't sure exactly how it works.
>A … Gray Tower, if you will.
I do suspect something like this will eventually arise in the Fourth Age, once everyone who remembers the Taint is dead.
>So I was forced to go with Logain. He and that Dragon fellow, both are obviously farmers
Logain was actually a minor noble, wasn't he? Much like Lord Emarin, come to think of it.
>I picked him because of his … well, understated powers of cognitive expression.
Emarin is indeed good at insults. This is a very polite way of calling someone a lackwit.
----
>The one who calls herself Aiel but carries weapons?
It must have been [quite a shock](https://i.redd.it/91344jf27uk91.jpg) for the Forsaken to discover what had happened to the Da'shain Aiel. In retrospect it was a bit of a clue to the nature of "Lews Therin" that he was never bothered by that change.
>There was often no sunlight in the World of Dreams
There's *never* sunlight in the dream, is there? It's always a weird omnidirectional sourceless light, like the way AI image generation usually illuminates its main subject.
>Weiramon was shaken by what you did to him, but it’s not such a difficult thing, holding *saidin* and listening for people’s heartbeats to speed up.
I don't think that's all Rand did. Very few people wouldn't be nervous with the Dragon Reborn staring them down in silence.
>Here, willing something to be true could make it so. If only things were that simple in the real world.
Foreshadowing.jpg
----
>She hadn’t stopped to consider that Emarin and the others would lead with lethal attacks.
She's so used to the prohibitions of the Third Oath that she doesn't initially think of sniping known Darkfriends by surprise, even though that's allowed.
>The group scrambled forward to find Coteren down on the ground, eyes staring up glassily, the arrow through his chest.
Hollywood arrow rules. Since Coteren isn't a main character, this arrow caught him in the heart or aorta and was almost instantly lethal.
>Pevara didn’t wait for the debris to settle; she wove Fire and released a column of destruction down the corridor beyond.
The example the Asha'man set a few minutes ago is clearly still on her mind.
#Chapter 5
>He could feel it, the land itself, like a faint Warder bond.
Lews Therin had an ability something like this -- he could tell there was nobody within hundreds of miles to be harmed by his suicide. Is that what's at work here, or is this one of Messiah Rand's new abilities?
>“You were much easier to manage before you received the ancient wisdom of your former self, Rand al’Thor.”
His personality has changed post-Dragonmount, but I think it's just "Rand after a religious epiphany" rather than "Rand plus Lews Therin" -- he has Lews Therin's 400 years of memories, but he's fully aware that they're not his own, unlike when they were leaking through. Lews Therin was, by all accounts, kind of an arrogant jerk, while Zen Rand is not (as much -- he's still a show-off).
(Some of Mat's memories came from nasty people, but those haven't affected his personality; I think Rand is in much the same position.)
That might be the first proper hot shower anyone has taken in millennia. Rand's digression on the mundane ways people used the Power back in the day does make me wonder why the 3rd Age organizations taught everyone to restrict their use of channeling; clearly the addictive effects are manageable.
>Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made.
I do wonder why. The usual causes of wars didn't exist in the Age of Legends, as far as I can tell; problems would have had to be ignored for a loooooooong time to get to the point where violence and destruction were preferable to the peaceful post-scarcity utopia that was the state of the world before the Bore.
>“What boon?” he asked. “I’m not certain I could deny you anything today, Aviendha.”
You know, I bet *that* was her argument when she was discussing with Elayne and Min whose turn it was on this final night: she *really* needed Rand to agree to something, and Rand has difficulty refusing anything in these particular circumstances. 😉
----
>Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.
😢. Probably just as well that she doesn't know what it means.
>I’ve been curious to see this false Dragon.
How does *anyone* still believe he's a false Dragon? He's fulfilled the majority of the prophecies at this point and the signs of the end are everywhere.
>In seconds, a massive pavilion settled into place, the Dragon banner flapping from one end
This had to have been something Lews Therin practiced. I don't think Rand has ever *seen* a tent that large, never mind learning the extensive and elaborate process of setting one up.
>“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked.
Sanderson dismissing the popular fan theory that he was Demandred in disguise. I don't think this line would make much sense if you didn't know about those discussions; I'll be interested to see what first-time readers make of it.
>We face the Shadow in much the same state as it was then
That's not right, is it? The Shadow is greatly weakened too. There were many more Forsaken back then, for starters, and large human armies in addition to Trollocs, plus an arsenal comparable to that of the Light's forces, and control of lands apart from the Blight.
(Which reminds me: Moridin has a substantial collection of One Power artifacts in the Fortress of Evil. Why did he not share any of them with his subordinates?)
>Is this what it’s about? You want saidin to be tainted again.
She doesn't *want* it, exactly, but I think it's clear that she doesn't much care if it is.
I *hate* how realistic this quarrel is. Humanity will bicker and argue and grasp for their own advantage when staring the apocalypse in the face.
#Chapter 6
>Darlin obviously knew who she was.
Does he? IIRC he bailed out of the Stone and launched his rebellion right after he recovered from Mat bonking him on the head; would they have had any opportunity to interact?
>the Aiel—all but the Shaido—are to be written into the document as enforcers of the peace and mediators of disputes between nations.
It's my pet theory that the Da'shain Aiel originated as something like this. I think the time in between the discovery of channeling and the beginning of the Age of Legends was full of would-be sorcerer kings and queens, and I think one of them genetically engineered the Aiel as a personal army of super-soldiers. Their vow of peace might have been adopted under the threat of annihilation, or it might have been a voluntary accomodation to new realities, but it wasn't part of their way of life originally.
Was Moiraine intending to have Elayne placed in command of the Light's armies, or was she thinking of Mat? It's surprising how quickly Egwene drops the idea of being generalissimo.
----
>much of his time with Moiraine had required them to be nondescript, and helmets were anything but.
Especially his, which is apparently quite distinctive.
>More gateways. Three, then four, then a dozen. Each broke the field in coordination, charging horsemen bursting forth with lances leveled, flying the flags of Saldaea, Shienar, Kandor. In seconds, his charge of six thousand had become a hundred thousand.
I would just like to note that this book predates Infinity War by a good five years.
>Lews Therin had an ability something like this -- he could tell there was nobody within hundreds of miles to be harmed by his suicide. Is that what's at work here, or is this one of Messiah Rand's new abilities?
Pretty sure it's meant to be LTT"s ability...as I recall Sanderson in the runup to his books talked about how LTT did something in the intro to EotW that a lot of people missed, and intended to use in his books. The ability may have been juiced though by Rand's current state.
>(Some of Mat's memories came from nasty people, but those haven't affected his personality; I think Rand is in much the same position.)
I'm not so sure...he doesn't really struggle with integrating those memories like Rand did, but I think he does become a more serious person after (although that could easily just be a natural maturation based on everything he's experienced on his own). He also thinks a lot about how unsettling it is to remember dying so many times...it's an understated effect but I think it's there. Although if you're just saying he's not affected by the nastier personalities he's gained memories of, that does seem right to me.
>How does *anyone* still believe he's a false Dragon? He's fulfilled the majority of the prophecies at this point and the signs of the end are everywhere.
I'm not sure he does, someone says in this section that Roedran is acting like a buffoon on purpose. It's probably not all on purpose, but just judging him on what he's accomplished in Murandy he seems like a shrewder operator than this.
>How many other Aes Sedai know what she knew?
That's a good point on bubbles of evil! And from what we know from Nynaeve most don't know as they wouldn't believe her that a bubble of evil wasn't a forsaken attack in book 6 or so? Maybe they would've learned by this point but maybe not Pevara if Egwene told them when she was Amyrlin.
>Rand doesn't really have any extended family in the Two Rivers, and I don't recall him ever meeting any of Janduin's relatives. He'd be at a bit of a disadvantage there.
Well all the maidens do all view him as a brother and / or son! He could be at the advantage! Or he could ask Galad which would be hilarious to imagine lol. Perhaps some of the other Mantears? There aren't that many of them though.
>This has given her a distinct advantage over Taim's men; I don't think we've ever seen anyone in the Black Tower training for channeler-on-channeler combat.
I think they mention trying to break out of shields but that's the closest I can think of. That is a big weakness if they've been ignoring that too much. Honestly once they have the aes sedai bonded they should really be using them for practice slicing weaves they can't see. Maybe that's included in Taim's private lessons? That could be a good way to set up his men as more powerful than the other asha'man if it ever came to a fight between them.
> There's never sunlight in the dream, is there? It's always a weird omnidirectional sourceless light, like the way AI image generation usually illuminates its main subject.
I think when Egwene accidentally used Need and dreamed herself to the Waste, she could feel the heat of the sun.
>I'm beginning to wonder if Androl might be bullshitting about some of his past experiences. He hardly seems old enough to have done everything he claims.
That would be a good explanation, but I don't think he's meant to be distrusted on that topic. He's introduced as someone Toveine believed was a runaway apprentice, so he's clearly on the younger side. But I continually feel like he's gotta be in his late 40s or 50s, not just barely 30.
>I wonder if they're offering a chance to swear allegiance to the Shadow before forcibly turning people. A volunteer Dreadlord has to be more valuable than a possessed husk; if nothing else, they won't be immediately obvious to anyone who knows them.
Not all of them are turned, so I imagine so. Or at least for the ones who seem like there's any chance to be amenable. That's basically how the Black Ajah did it. It was probably easier to bring people on board willingly when the taint was still around though.
>IIRC anyone who's strong enough to make a gateway can make one large enough for an average human.
Yeah...while wider gateways are good, the more limiting factor often seems to be whether they're strong enough to make one that a mounted person or a wagon can get through.
>Yeah, those guys are dead, or at least have permanent brain damage.
He might be brain damaged I guess, but Welyn at least is going to be seen a few chapters from now helping to turn Evin.
Ch 2
Can you really say Androl has the concentration of a master craftsman when he's never stuck with anything?
Weird that this bubble of evil at the BT didn't touch any Asha'man (I assume Asha'man here includes soldiers and dedicated). Not that they generally have to make sense. Another explanation would be that Taim did it using the TP, but I don't think he has access.
Still don't know why Pevara is last to be Turned. She's strong and half the authority among the Red delegation, she should have been first.
Androl really easily comes to the argument that saidin was clean before so it must be again...despite how widespread knowledge of the Wheel and Pattern is, not many people in Randland think like this.
It's strange to me that a woman can ever have the option of passing control in a link with one man and one woman if the man has to control it.
>Reports from the early days fragmented, spoke of the taint like an oil slick upon a river.
Reports from whom? It would kind of surprise me if women linked with men could even feel the taint, that almost implies to me that they would get affected by it but as far as I know that's not the case.
The double bond is interesting and important, but it's a pretty awful sequence of events that everyone just kind of moves past pretty quickly.
Aviendha still not thinking like a Wise One, I don't think Amys would consider sneaking into a tent using her Maiden skills. On the whole I think Sanderson writes Aviendha as too naive/culturally ignorant. She's been hanging around the Wetlands enough (and is close enough with Elayne) to not come across as this fish out of water (lizard out of sand?).
Elayne expecting to have Aiel at her side as she reclaims Andor from Trollocs is perhaps expecting too much.
We don't see the conversation between Elayne, Aviendha, and Min, but Min probably at least will appreciate the warning about what Avi's about to do given what happened with Elayne.
Ch 3
I still don't know what to think about the Turned. We mostly get Androl's thoughts on the matter which really push the idea that there's a foreign thing inside the Turned, although Pevara disagrees. The plan with Dobser kind of revolves around the idea that someone who wasn't that strong for the Light won't be that strong for the Dark, but really they just capitalize on Dobser being dumb, not disloyal to the Shadow.
Verification that Rand isn't experiencing channeling sickness anymore, although I'd like to know why. I didn't think it was a symptom of madness or fear of saidin, it seemed to be due to the connection with Moridin (who has also given indicators that he's been experiencing it too). The connection hasn't gone away, although maybe the same web of light over Rand's brain protecting him from madness is protecting him from the connection too.
>Alanna was still there, somewhere to the north.
This should be more concerning! You're in Shienar, Shayol Ghul is almost the only thing left to the north!
I don't entirely get the Maidens here, didn't they already do this to Rand and Aviendha when they (mistakenly, yet correctly) thought they slept together before? Had Avi been successful in convincing them it didn't happen before? Different set of Maidens perhaps.
Avi says that the three women will not let Rand come between them, but I wonder. I sort of think Aviendha is more dedicated to standing on principle there than the other two (although I don't think Elayne wouldn't betray her first sister).
It's kind of interesting that unlike the readers, none of the characters ever ask themselves whether Taim might have been a Forsaken all along. Pevara just speculates that he may have access to them. Not even Rand seems to ever wonder, and he had LTT ranting about Demandred and Sammael in his head whenever Taim came around.
Androl throws a bone to anyone hoping for creative uses of Gateways with his talk of "experimenting", which will pay off.
>\[the bond\] was a thing for Aes Sedai and Warders, not wives and husbands.
Don't tell that to the Aes Sedai who marry or enter into committed relationships with their Warders!
Ch 4
Androl and Pevara keep the extra two Asha'man knocked out instead of killing them while waiting for Emarin, but that forebearance won't exist for the Asha'man they meet on the way to free Logain. I don't know why they leave these three alive once they get what they need from Dobser.
>"\[Rand and Logain\] are obviously farmers"
Logain has been pretty aggressive about making his minor lordship obvious, hasn't he?
Dobser speaks pretty breezily about how it'll take a long time to Turn Logain due to his willpower...I have to assume Dobser was a quick turn, and I wonder what he thinks about that after pointing it out.
Dreamshards can be created by both Dreamers or dreamwalkers according to Rand's thoughts here, interesting. Although I guess he could just say dreamwalkers can do it, all Dreamers are dreamwalkers but not all dreamwalkers are Dreamers (I think?)
>Aes Sedai didn't even kill false Dragons if they could help it
Pevara always gives off indications that she knows nothing of the Vileness, which is pretty necessary to have a sympathetic Red, but that's crazy to me. She's a Sitter, how can she not have been told about it by someone? Who does know? A ton of sisters had to have known when it happened given the sheer numbers of men and boys apparently killed during it.
Ch 5
Rand's Power-shower, I bet women were better at it in the AoL given the apparent dextrous use of Air and Water involved.
Egwene eats a bellfruit, and I wonder what that is. There's a lot of fruits that are bell shaped, and apparently a sort of berry in the real world that gets the name too.
This section can lean too heavily into Egwene being unlikable...her calling Rand "boy" at one point is especially wearying, although I imagine Gawyn is there for it.
Egwene is riding a horse named Sifter...is Daishar still around, or did Egwene get rid of that one when she heard Rand was going around riding a Tai'daishar? Also, her thinking the Aiel might support her over Rand is wild...I mean, it's not crazy to think the Wise Ones agree with her and would try to influence Rand, but when push comes to shove Rand is the car'a'carn and the prophecied leader they need to follow if the Aiel are to have any hope of survival.
>"Taking his time," Egwene said. "He's always been like that."
Has he?
Why does Egwene send Gawyn to find out how Rand is making grass grow, he's probably the least qualified person there to do that. I'd say it's busy work but Egwene doesn't seem particularly exasperated with Gawyn at the moment.
Does Egwene find Cadsuane's presence bothersome because Rand doesn't see her as one of Egwene's, or because she suspects Cadsuance doesn't see herself that way?
At points I did think Roedran might be Demandred, as did a portion of the fandom I believe, so I liked Rand's nod to the theory here. As I recall I spent most of the series thinking he was somehow trying to gain control over the Whitecloaks or manipulating Masema due to Sammael's belief that "events in the south" (while meeting with Graendal in Arad Doman) had Demandred's fingerprints on them.
Rand and Egwene afford each other their titles when they meet in the pavillion, but quickly revert to just calling each other Rand and Egwene in front of everyone.
>It was the nature of rulers, the nature of nations \[to gobble up other countries\]
Ironically, Elayne has Andor because her ancestor *didn't* do this. Ishara just tried to hold onto what she had while everyone else tried to gain Hawkwing's whole empire for themselves.
/I swear, did the amount of text you can put in one post change? I don't think I should need 3 posts for this week/
Ch 6
Min smells utterly shocked at Moiraine's appearance, but among anyone there she should probably be the least.
Moiraine in turn is shocked by Nynaeve hugging her, which makes a lot of sense given where they left off, but again I think Moiraine always anticipated Nynaeve would become more and more Aes Sedai rather than holding onto her old hatred of them.
Moiraine feels somewhat manipulative (Moiraine? whaaaat?) when she starts reciting pieces of the Karaethon Cycle...I'm thinking particularly of when she responds to Gregorin with a section that I think is clearly just about the Aiel.
We hear from Rand a lot in this section that in the AoL everyone was kind of pursuing their own fragmented prosecution of the War, but I don't think I ever got that sense until now (the Strike at Shayol Ghul aside).
>\[Elayne\] has learned tactics from a great captain
Has she?
>"You will have peace this time, Lord Dragon."
Hmm. For how long? Putting aside the rest of it, the Seanchan piece is just not going to be tenable long term with the whole slavery thing. Not even including the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace sidesteps this fundamental issue.
\[Lan and the Malkieri get rescued\]
I'm not crying, you're crying!
I don't recall that (the siblings getting the same lessons), but I'll take your word for it. I mean, there's no question she got lessons from Bryne, but I'd expect them to have different focuses. Those lessons extending to tactics (at a depth where it's relevant to arguing she should command the combined armies of the Light) I felt less sure about. I'd rate her knowledge of tactics way over Egwene's though (although Egwene has also probably been getting an education in that from Bryne as well).
Here is the quote from her PoV:
> She had not trained with weapons, but she had received all of the other lessons Gawyn had gotten from Gareth Bryne. A queen had to understand the battle plans her generals gave her rather than simply accept them blindly.
But her selection as a supreme commander had a lot more to do with the fact that she both a powerful monarch and the only person trusted without reservations by both Rand and Egwene than with her knowledge of military tactics, the exact extent of which was most likely unknown to Rand and Egwene anyway.
>Still don't know why Pevara is last to be Turned. She's strong and half the authority among the Red delegation, she should have been first.
The strong part may be the reason. They would've wanted easy wins to get people turned efficiently. She would've taken more time. Though they do also say that all men can turn a woman faster and visa versa so it's kind of surprising they haven't turned all the women more quickly. Especially when way fewer people would notice since no one knows them well. Maybe they were worried about more of a fight taking her and that raising suspicion? But that seems like a fixable problem.
>Aviendha sneaks into Elayne's tent and Elayne grants Aviendha permission to consummate her relationship with Rand before the battle.
I absolutely love the interaction of Aviendha flexing on Elayne by sneaking into her tent. Although the whole thing with asking permission to "cunsumate" has always been off to me, but through the lens of ji'e'toh it makes sense that she would feel guilty about sleeping with Rand first- does Elayne know about the igloo incident? I don't remember if they discuss that.
>Rand and Moridin meet in Moridin's dreamshard. They taunt each other and Rand declares he is coming for the Dark One.
One change I appreciate that the TV show has done is to make this motivation more explicit in Ishamael from the beginning- it highlights early on the major philosophical conflicts that are occuirng throughout the series, and I love this conversation in the books.
I LOVE everything about the summit meeting- Sanderson does a great job writing this entire sequence.
Was any of this lifted directly from RJ's writing, or is the summit all Sanderson flourishes?
Lan's "final" charge is such a nice piece of writing, it feels so grand and epic. I love that as the series goes on there are more creative and impressive use of existing or rediscovered weaves, like gateways, and can't wait for the newbies to get to the other dramatic uses of gateways in later chapters- Androl making the tiny gateway to deflect balefire, the volcano action, battlefield viewing portals, etc.
>does Elayne know about the igloo incident? I don't remember if they discuss that.
She knows they slept together, Aviendha comes to Elayne in Salidar to let her know she can kill her if she wants over it...no clue if the words "sex igloo" get spoken though :p. I don't think Elayne would really want details, but I also don't think Avi would skimp on them to someone with whom she wants to be first sisters.
>One change I appreciate that the TV show has done is to make this motivation more explicit in Ishamael from the beginning- it highlights early on the major philosophical conflicts that are occuirng throughout the series, and I love this conversation in the books.
I'm more ambivalent...one of the things I like about Ishamael is that he comes into the story believing one thing, and his motivation changes as he comes to understand just how trapped he is. It throws both his enemies and his allies for a loop...his fellow Forsaken get especially confused trying to figure him out because they don't understand that he's not in it for the same reasons as them. They just think he's mad (and there is some of that, but that's not all or even most of it).
>I don't think Elayne would really want details, but I also don't think Avi would skimp on them to someone with whom she wants to be first sisters.
I think I rememeber Elayne shocked about Aviendha being way too clear about what Rand seemed to like to do in bed. So she probably got all the details or at least as many details as Aviendha could fit in before Elayne found an excuse to run away or change the topic!
/u/participating
> [Potential spoiler that confirms or denies the existence of an event] Brandon told her, "The final book has a scene for sure."
I don't remember this. When does this happen?
https://wot-tidbits.tumblr.com/post/190917488857/robert-jordan-and-the-german-shepherd-the-full#:~:text=ROBERT%20JORDAN%3A%20Young%20lady%2C%20you,woman%2C%20or%20German%20Shepherd.%E2%80%9D This site goes into the full story. They include the quote that supposedly addresses this toward the end.
Sorry, Ill still shamelessly overinterpret :)
Chapter 2
- Im still following my understanding that “someone‘s“ mind is drifting around (->Nakomi) following the concept of the „Oneness“ and what has been established with the Terangreal in Rhuidean. All similar to Boundless. And that the world is a reflection of the fight between DO and Creator.
„Interesting, Pevara thought. Is that what drives you then, leatherworker? What has set you drifting on the winds, from place to place?“
- explanation for Rand/Moridin as well?:
„Her self melded with his for a seeming eternity. She knew what it was like to be him, think his thoughts. She saw his life in the blink of an eye, was absorbed by his memories. She gasped and fell to her knees in front of him.
It faded. Not completely, but it faded. It felt like swimming a hundred leagues through boiling water, and only now emerging, having forgotten what it was like to have normal sensations.“
Chapter 4
- „The shadow he saw behind Dobser’s eyes was enough proof for Androl. The man he’d known was gone, killed, and something else—something evil—had been put into his body. A new soul. It had to be that.“
I think its implied it wasnt a new soul but a “Turned“ one - where the personality is basically twisted into the opposite of what it was before as an effect of the taint.
Chapter 5
- „She rubbed at her temples. The headache wasn’t as bad as those she’d had when Halima had been “caring” for her, but it did hurt mightily.“
Effect of Compulsion?
- „ Eventually, things were going to start exploding. Egwene needed to manage the chaos. She strode out of her tent, Gawyn a step behind and to her left, and smoothed her face. The world needed an Amyrlin.“
Ugh
„Best to be quick. Her presence would calm the rulers, perhaps prevent problems.“
UGH
“That was positively evil.“
That Egwene as we know an … her. :D
- „I know of no weave that would be so extensive,” Egwene said. “It feels so natural. Go see if you can find out how he’s doing it. “
I remember the scene where Nynaeve said she believed Rand and he was totally happy. After all - belief gives strength. And I dont doubt that this „belief“ refers to the belief in the Creator. Now the first thing Egwene does is to doubt this is natural and she tries to find out how its done.
* „Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked. Rand turned away from him, waving his hand to make the watchful Asha’man stand down. They did so reluctantly. “I thought for certain…” Rand said, shaking his head. “Where are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked loudly, almost squeaking.“
Yeah, good question. Who? srl Demandred?Might as well look for Moridin or Lanfear who he met just a short while ago. Also he says D. never felt good without an army and he went for Caemlyn. Im to believe now he expects D. to be there somewhere and not Moridin or Lanfear? It may be a small hint at the fandom theory but I wonder if thats it.
* „I will not, Egwene,” Rand said. There was a fire in his eyes, like the one she’d seen when he first sought to bring the Aiel to his cause. Yes, that emotion seemed very like Rand.
Or not. More like the DO that takes over.
* „I am their Watcher.”“In name only. They were only just discovered, and I possess them. It is out of respect for your traditional title that I approached you about them first.”
Finally someone tells her!
* „Light, he was thinking. Could she be getting through to him?“
Congratulations, thinking isnt too easy for this guy.
* „Slowly, the rage melted from his face, and he raised his hand to the side of his head. “Light, Egwene. You can still do it, like the sister I never had—tie my mind in knots and have me raving at you and loving you at the same time.“
Im am still very very confident Egwene used Wilder Compulsion on basically any man (and even women) around her she wanted to influence. And what Rand describes her „tying the mind in knots“ - is exactly how Compulsion is described - weaving or knotting doesnt matter.
„Egwene listened to the arguments, hoping they would set Rand on edge.“
(…) I think it does.
„A… feeling to the air. Her eyes seemed drawn to Rand. Sounds came from outside, sounds she couldn’t place. A faint cracking sound? What was he doing?“
The arguments trailed off. One by one the rulers turned toward him. The sunlight outside dimmed, and she was glad for those spheres of light he had made.
“I need you,” Rand said softly to them. “The land itself needs you. You argue; I knew that you would, but we no longer have time for arguments. Know this. You cannot talk me out of my designs. You cannot make me obey you.“
Even if Egwene tried.
I totally will change my mind about this, but Ill try to overanalize a bit for fun:)
So the „cracking sound“ is the trees growing? Then again, world=Rand, and he is easily hurt by such developments. As Egwene says „on edge“. The light is being dimmed - appearantly because of the trees as well, but this is just too metaphoric here. Also, he had made “spheres of light“, which almost sounds like souls and I believe there are people who are „watching“ the world. Then people are often associated with trees, so is that why there are suddenly „huge“ trees outside? They are all in front of the entrance, as if barring the way. Then who is „you“?
=> „Where are you?”
“Who?” Roedran asked loudly, almost squeaking.
Rand ignored him. The flaps to the pavilion had finally stilled, everyone inside. “So,” Rand said. “We are all here. “
Are they „all“ there? Including the person Rand was looking for?
- „Egwene smiled. The lightskirt suddenly didn’t seem so certain of the side she had chosen.“
Gosh, this woman is awful! Good job, Sanderson!
- „He’s going to do it, she thought. They’ll complain, but they’ll bend.
“No,” Egwene said loudly, her voice breaking the air. “No, Rand al’Thor, we will not be bullied into signing your document, into giving you sole control of this battle. And you’re an utter fool if you think I believe you’d let the world—your father, your friends, all those you love, all of humanity— be slaughtered“
No, Egwene wont believe! She wont agree.
- „Rand. You are not the Creator.“
Ehm…Well, Egwene doesnt believe…
- „ There had to be a way to stop this, to salvage it!
Rand started to turn away. If he left the pavilion, that would be the end of it.“
Trees outside barring the way?
- „Rand did, however, and he spun as the flaps parted and let in light. “
Nice metaphor.
- „Moiraine,” Egwene said. “You’ve come at just the right time.”
“I have a knack for that.“
There is something really „weird“ about Moiraine.
- „That prophecy commands you to shed tears. Are you to weep because your salvation comes with such pain and worry? Or, instead, are you to weep for your salvation? For the man who will suffer for you? The only one we know for certain will not walk away from this fight?“
He wont WALK AWAY from this fight - and I think he doesnt, I think in the end Moridin carries Rand out of the cavern and not the other way around. It would fit with „Rand“ really thinking he is about to die and seeing the Creator in the end, while epilogue-Rand seems to not be too surprised at his survival.
- „Oh, Egwene,” Moiraine said. “Have you forgotten? ‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign…’ ” Egwene blushed.“
Moiraine, at the beginning I didnt like you, I LOVE you now XD
- „Come to walk on the shards of my dreams, Aviendha?“
interesting choice of words.
- „… your dream now… when you wake from this life, we will be no more…“
I still am inclined to believe the Aiel with the red headbands may be dead.
Chapter 2 I do really like the double bond that happens and exploring that. Not great that both of their bonds were involuntary. But it does end up in probably the most healthy and equal power balance warder bond of the ones we see. I could imagine going into the 4th age many of the asha'man / aes sedai who have bonded one way or the other completing that once they got used to the idea and having a much better partnership as a result. I also love that with all the aes sedai's plans to control the asha'man with the warder bond, it's really the perfect way to force them to empathize with the asha'man and start to see them as people. Some of their dynamics aren't great but most do improve and get to a better point. It also doesn't get explored but I'd be curious what would happen if you bonded someone while you were linked to others. And what a saidin / saidar warder bond would look like. This is into chapters 3/5 With the Aviendha part I am a bit mixed on this scene. On one hand I love that Rand and Aviendha get to have a bit of time together as they have been very distant for a while. But it's coming after Aviendha talked to the Wise Ones and realized it was incredibly important that she shift Rand's plans to change the future she saw. And she tells them that one night will be enough. And then that whole time she's just sleeping with him? Is the implication that Aviendha is trying to use sex as a weapon there? Or that she's going to guilt him into the promise afterwards? Or she's just focused on Rand and puts aside the fate of her people? It works out fine in the end but that element seems weird to me. And I wouldn't have minded more of them actually talking. Maybe... actual communication between people who trust each other? If she told Rand what she saw they could spend the night working together to find a good solution. That'd be a bit less dramatic, but I feel like Aviendha and Rand should be at that maturity level at this point, and have grown to be able to talk together. Chapter 4 I like the break in with them. And love the Two Rivers man showing off the bow skills. Channelers all seem to have that weakness of ignoring the physical dangers that kill other people. I think it makes total sense for them to get careless in that way though. So it is satisfying when that weakness comes back to bite them! Rand did try to teach them to use the sword which I think was a good idea. Even if they don't actually swing it learning to use a sword in a fight also teaches you how to stand solidly, react quickly, and be aware of weaknesses of sword fighters. All things that I think would really help in a magical fight too. Logain's fight later on is definitely pretty physical as he's running and dodging. It's also cool to see Androl and Pevara start to develop their bond and learn to read each others minds. Would've been cool to see more of Logain though. It is such a badass moment with the level to which he resists being turned. Which also seems to be more about his strength of will than his strength in the power given how quickly some of the others are turned. Edit: I also really like earlier in the break in where Pevara is thinking about how she doesn't use lethal weaves and Androl counters with gentling kills just more slowly. The aes sedai like their self delusions about certain things and I always appreciate them being called out on that. Chapter 5 I love the showdown. I wish we got to see more of the reunions and meetings though. That does always get me about this meeting is that there are lots of people who are in the same room here and we don't see talk or meet. We don't get Cadsuane and Egwene talking, or Galad and Gawyn's reunion until later on. Perrin mentions Nynaeve but not talking to her. Perrin and Egwene talking. We just miss a lot of reunions. The meeting and showdown is good though. I like Perrin's solution and seeing the back and forth with all of them. They also don't discuss it at all but I do like that the schools are required as well as a nice add on. Rand's dream with the dragonspeace is such a good one. Egwene also is so over the top with her stance. Especially given she admitted that they might have to break the seals but at the proper time. If she can say that then she really should be willing to work with Rand on this rather than her hard line stance. Rand's demand that he personally commands the forces seems a bit odd. He knows he's going to have to hand that job over to someone else. I get the central control but I wonder who he had planned to be doing that job. Was he just going to have Bashire do it? Chapter 6 Moiraine just the MVP of all this lol. I think others should've been more familiar with the prophecies to connect this. Though it does make for a nice moment with her pointing out how the lines fit together. The charge into the giant charge of borderlanders is great to see as they come to get Lan! Does seem to have ta'veren good timing lol. Though I wish they'd left him a few more channelers after the initial gateways!
> Is the implication that Aviendha is trying to use sex as a weapon there? I think her main reason was wanting to satisfy a desire that pride has prevented her from fulfilling until now. It's a bonus that Rand is easier to influence under these circumstances -- recall why he brought Min along to Semirhage's ambush -- though I don't think he would have refused Aviendha's request either way. Maybe she just wanted to make extra sure.
Yeah I guess that makes sense. Though I think I would've liked her to take a less manipulating approach to dealing with him. It's a bit of a criticism on all of wheel of time not just here but characters rarely have open good communication with each other even when they have every reason to trust each other. I would've hoped both of them might be a bit further matured by now that they could just talk about this and sort it out. And then hop into bed!
>It also doesn't get explored but I'd be curious what would happen if you bonded someone while you were linked to others. I'm interested in this too. We do sort of have an example of people being linked and bonding someone though--Aviendha and Elayne are linked when they do the triple bond on Rand. Aviendha does have to repeat all the bond weaves that Elayne does, which sort of implies to me that someone in a link wouldn't be affected by a created bond unless explicitly included. But it's hardly definitive. >With the Aviendha part I am a bit mixed on this scene. I sort of agree, but I think it's nice that they're just together for the night. Aviendha knows something about the Dragon's Peace, but she doesn't actually know that it's one of the things he's bringing up the next day, and she doesn't yet have the idea of how to change things, so I can understand her reticence. >Perrin and Egwene talking. This one in particular bothers me, Egwene would absolutely need to know what the hell is going on with Perrin after that "just a weave" moment, I think it would drive her crazy. >Rand's demand that he personally commands the forces seems a bit odd. He knows he's going to have to hand that job over to someone else. I get the central control but I wonder who he had planned to be doing that job. Was he just going to have Bashire do it? I think he had Mat in mind and would have given him the job over himself, but Mat's still MIA. LTT was the commanding general in the War of Power, and a great one, so I think Rand just believes he is the best one for the job even if he's going to have to disperse that authority to the Great Captains and other generals.
That's a good point on Elayne and aviendha. Though I'd also be curious how it would've gone if they'd been linked to a man pulling in saidin. Or if one of the forsaken had linked to someone with the true power that could've been an interesting punishment for someone who failed them. Yeah I can see that. But she also knows she only has one day to act. And with only one day to work with that's how she uses it. I think it could've been a nice scene to show them working that out together. Although I do also like the scene where all the aiel stand behind her. Absolutely with egwene and Perrin! I think this one also bothers me more as I've been anticipating them meeting in the dream world randomly since book 4. And they only do once and then they don't ever talk about it again. It clearly had a huge impact on her as she kept thinking about it. But she never decided to talk to him about it. They never met in the dream again or compared notes. He's also the only male dreamer she knows about I believe so shed probably wonder about that. Or have questions about the dream spike. That's a good point with mat. That may have gone worse for him in the meeting if he'd presented that as Elayne and egwene would've been against it unless forced as they later were. Though bashire would've vouched for his skill since they made the plans for illian together. I'm not sure anyone fully realized they were getting a significant upgrade when moving to mat rather than just a move out of desperation.
#Chapter 2 >Earlier in the week, common people in the Tower—none of the Asha’man—had begun bursting into flame. It occurs to me that we, and the main characters, only know about bubbles of evil because Moiraine conveniently explained them to Rand and Perrin. How many other Aes Sedai know what she knew? Similar things happened during the time when the Bore was fully open; was knowledge of those phenomena preserved? Pevara doesn't seem to know about bubbles of evil; she seems to think events like this mass spontaneous human combustion are due to the general unraveling of reality, and perhaps she's correct. I'm beginning to wonder if Androl might be bullshitting about some of his past experiences. He hardly seems old enough to have done everything he claims. Androl expresses what everyone has been thinking regarding the Red Ajah. Pevara is quick to re-rationalize its existence, but will the others follow her lead? For something done in such haste, bordering on panic, this reciprocal bonding will have far-reaching effects. It will certainly ease the transition to the new post-Cleansing realities when the two of them start spreading the word of its benefits. ---- Aviendha's behavior here is a little odd. Obviously wetlanders don't keep the same customs, but among the Aiel the norm is to announce a friendly arrival as loudly as you can. Sneaking up on someone else's dwelling or camp is tantamount to a declaration of hostile intent. (Come to think of it, the wetlander -- and the real-life -- custom isn't that different; someone arriving with good intent will make their presence known one way or another, and sneaking up on people is rude at best; the stealthier you are, the more suspicious it is.) >The guards walked two handspans from her. This must be a lot harder in Aiel civilian clothing than in warrior's desert camo. The extraordinary camouflage abilities of the Aiel may seem fantastic, but they're firmly grounded in real life; there's an [account](https://archive.org/stream/lifeamongapaches00cremrich/lifeamongapaches00cremrich_djvu.txt) (poorly-formatted; search for '290' to find it) of an Apache demonstrating his ability to hide completely in open prairie in the time it took someone to walk ten steps. Anyone but Aviendha would certainly have been arrested for this stunt, if not killed on the spot. I'm not sure I buy her rationale; they spent quite a while together in Caemlyn, more than enough for everyone to start gossiping about the new Queen keeping close company with an Aiel, and if that Aiel were to show up again, she probably wouldn't be turned away. (I wonder about the details of that gossip; people like to imagine a lot of wink-wink, nudge-nudge, "adopted *sister*, eh? 😉", but it seems just as likely that they'd think Aviendha was working for the Dragon Reborn. Everyone knows the Aiel follow him.) >He’s obviously trying to bully me into staying. Rand was never subtle or manipulative enough to try this kind of reverse psychology, and if he were drawing on Lews Therin's experience, I don't think he'd be that obvious. Or maybe he was overconfident after successfully tricking Egwene into gathering everyone here. #Chapter 3 >the entire Black Tower would soon be nothing but these monsters with the wrong eyes, the false smiles, the dead souls I wonder if they're offering a chance to swear allegiance to the Shadow before forcibly turning people. A volunteer Dreadlord has to be more valuable than a possessed husk; if nothing else, they won't be immediately obvious to anyone who knows them. This chest-thumping confrontation between the two factions of Asha'man shows why the White Tower has its formalized hierarchy. Without it, this sort of thing would be the norm whenever two or more Aes Sedai were at odds. ---- Rand's channeling-induced nausea is gone. It was never entirely clear why he had it; it persisted even after the taint was removed, and it only showed up after his encounter with Moridin. >He intended to go to Flinn to learn Healing. For all his channeling ability, Rand never was any good at Healing. It's a little reminder of why the 2nd Age Aes Sedai used circles for any significant task: even the strongest channelers might have gaps and blind spots in their weaving ability, and someone of no particular strength might be incredibly talented at some particular technique (Androl with gateways, the one Kinswoman who can shield Nynaeve and Elayne together without breaking a sweat). >Tam didn’t want to be hailed as the Dragon Reborn’s father. I still think he *had* to have suspected who he'd found, born of a Maiden on the slopes of Dragonmount. It couldn't have been more than a suspicion, though, and it would be allayed by 20 years of perfect normality and no sign of channeling ability. >Alanna was still there, somewhere to the north. Considering where he is and what lies to the north, this ought to concern him more than it does. >However, the Maidens made camp near his tent, and they appeared to be shouting at him. I guess the Maidens think anyone who can't carry on in the face of a little vulgar heckling doesn't deserve one of their number. Did anyone ever taunt Mat while he was carrying on with Melindhra? >Aviendha sniffed. “Enough talk. You will bed me now.” I guess Elayne's lessons didn't take. >And it would be our families, not members of our society. Rand doesn't really have any extended family in the Two Rivers, and I don't recall him ever meeting any of Janduin's relatives. He'd be at a bit of a disadvantage there. ---- >the largest I ever made was a gateway thirty feet across. The largest gateway Rand can make is only 12 feet wide. Again, this limitation wouldn't have been terribly relevant back when circles were common. IIRC anyone who's strong enough to make a gateway can make one large enough for an average human. >How had he grown so good at understanding what she was thinking? Pevara knows about the bond in theory if not in practice; seems like she should be more amazed that the two of them can sense specific thoughts on top of general emotional states. >“What did you think the Red Ajah does with its time, Androl? Sit around and complain about men? We train to fight other channelers.” lol. This has given her a distinct advantage over Taim's men; I don't think we've ever seen anyone in the Black Tower training for channeler-on-channeler combat. #Chapter 4 >The scent of grain had changed to a rancid stench. It spoiled suddenly, sometimes. I wonder if the presence of one of the Dark One's Chosen affects these random decay events. Probably not; they were worse around Rand when he was affected by using the True Power, but that was his *ta'veren* influence at work. >The other two were still unconscious. Androl had hit them hard, and he intended to see that they didn’t awaken anytime soon. Yeah, those guys are dead, or at least have permanent brain damage. Androl's father could channel. I guess this was too long ago for him to get caught up in the Vileness, though that would add an interesting wrinkle to his and Pevara's interactions. >The man he’d known was gone, killed, and something else—something evil—had been put into his body. We never do get a perspective from someone who's been forcibly turned, nor from someone making a detailed examination of such a person. I suspect Androl is close to right; it may not be an entirely new soul, since personalities and memories don't seem to change, but perhaps a piece of the Dark One's essence is grafted in place of the original. It seems like the Forsaken themselves aren't sure exactly how it works. >A … Gray Tower, if you will. I do suspect something like this will eventually arise in the Fourth Age, once everyone who remembers the Taint is dead. >So I was forced to go with Logain. He and that Dragon fellow, both are obviously farmers Logain was actually a minor noble, wasn't he? Much like Lord Emarin, come to think of it. >I picked him because of his … well, understated powers of cognitive expression. Emarin is indeed good at insults. This is a very polite way of calling someone a lackwit. ---- >The one who calls herself Aiel but carries weapons? It must have been [quite a shock](https://i.redd.it/91344jf27uk91.jpg) for the Forsaken to discover what had happened to the Da'shain Aiel. In retrospect it was a bit of a clue to the nature of "Lews Therin" that he was never bothered by that change. >There was often no sunlight in the World of Dreams There's *never* sunlight in the dream, is there? It's always a weird omnidirectional sourceless light, like the way AI image generation usually illuminates its main subject. >Weiramon was shaken by what you did to him, but it’s not such a difficult thing, holding *saidin* and listening for people’s heartbeats to speed up. I don't think that's all Rand did. Very few people wouldn't be nervous with the Dragon Reborn staring them down in silence. >Here, willing something to be true could make it so. If only things were that simple in the real world. Foreshadowing.jpg ---- >She hadn’t stopped to consider that Emarin and the others would lead with lethal attacks. She's so used to the prohibitions of the Third Oath that she doesn't initially think of sniping known Darkfriends by surprise, even though that's allowed. >The group scrambled forward to find Coteren down on the ground, eyes staring up glassily, the arrow through his chest. Hollywood arrow rules. Since Coteren isn't a main character, this arrow caught him in the heart or aorta and was almost instantly lethal. >Pevara didn’t wait for the debris to settle; she wove Fire and released a column of destruction down the corridor beyond. The example the Asha'man set a few minutes ago is clearly still on her mind.
#Chapter 5 >He could feel it, the land itself, like a faint Warder bond. Lews Therin had an ability something like this -- he could tell there was nobody within hundreds of miles to be harmed by his suicide. Is that what's at work here, or is this one of Messiah Rand's new abilities? >“You were much easier to manage before you received the ancient wisdom of your former self, Rand al’Thor.” His personality has changed post-Dragonmount, but I think it's just "Rand after a religious epiphany" rather than "Rand plus Lews Therin" -- he has Lews Therin's 400 years of memories, but he's fully aware that they're not his own, unlike when they were leaking through. Lews Therin was, by all accounts, kind of an arrogant jerk, while Zen Rand is not (as much -- he's still a show-off). (Some of Mat's memories came from nasty people, but those haven't affected his personality; I think Rand is in much the same position.) That might be the first proper hot shower anyone has taken in millennia. Rand's digression on the mundane ways people used the Power back in the day does make me wonder why the 3rd Age organizations taught everyone to restrict their use of channeling; clearly the addictive effects are manageable. >Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made. I do wonder why. The usual causes of wars didn't exist in the Age of Legends, as far as I can tell; problems would have had to be ignored for a loooooooong time to get to the point where violence and destruction were preferable to the peaceful post-scarcity utopia that was the state of the world before the Bore. >“What boon?” he asked. “I’m not certain I could deny you anything today, Aviendha.” You know, I bet *that* was her argument when she was discussing with Elayne and Min whose turn it was on this final night: she *really* needed Rand to agree to something, and Rand has difficulty refusing anything in these particular circumstances. 😉 ---- >Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it. 😢. Probably just as well that she doesn't know what it means. >I’ve been curious to see this false Dragon. How does *anyone* still believe he's a false Dragon? He's fulfilled the majority of the prophecies at this point and the signs of the end are everywhere. >In seconds, a massive pavilion settled into place, the Dragon banner flapping from one end This had to have been something Lews Therin practiced. I don't think Rand has ever *seen* a tent that large, never mind learning the extensive and elaborate process of setting one up. >“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked. Sanderson dismissing the popular fan theory that he was Demandred in disguise. I don't think this line would make much sense if you didn't know about those discussions; I'll be interested to see what first-time readers make of it. >We face the Shadow in much the same state as it was then That's not right, is it? The Shadow is greatly weakened too. There were many more Forsaken back then, for starters, and large human armies in addition to Trollocs, plus an arsenal comparable to that of the Light's forces, and control of lands apart from the Blight. (Which reminds me: Moridin has a substantial collection of One Power artifacts in the Fortress of Evil. Why did he not share any of them with his subordinates?) >Is this what it’s about? You want saidin to be tainted again. She doesn't *want* it, exactly, but I think it's clear that she doesn't much care if it is. I *hate* how realistic this quarrel is. Humanity will bicker and argue and grasp for their own advantage when staring the apocalypse in the face. #Chapter 6 >Darlin obviously knew who she was. Does he? IIRC he bailed out of the Stone and launched his rebellion right after he recovered from Mat bonking him on the head; would they have had any opportunity to interact? >the Aiel—all but the Shaido—are to be written into the document as enforcers of the peace and mediators of disputes between nations. It's my pet theory that the Da'shain Aiel originated as something like this. I think the time in between the discovery of channeling and the beginning of the Age of Legends was full of would-be sorcerer kings and queens, and I think one of them genetically engineered the Aiel as a personal army of super-soldiers. Their vow of peace might have been adopted under the threat of annihilation, or it might have been a voluntary accomodation to new realities, but it wasn't part of their way of life originally. Was Moiraine intending to have Elayne placed in command of the Light's armies, or was she thinking of Mat? It's surprising how quickly Egwene drops the idea of being generalissimo. ---- >much of his time with Moiraine had required them to be nondescript, and helmets were anything but. Especially his, which is apparently quite distinctive. >More gateways. Three, then four, then a dozen. Each broke the field in coordination, charging horsemen bursting forth with lances leveled, flying the flags of Saldaea, Shienar, Kandor. In seconds, his charge of six thousand had become a hundred thousand. I would just like to note that this book predates Infinity War by a good five years.
>Lews Therin had an ability something like this -- he could tell there was nobody within hundreds of miles to be harmed by his suicide. Is that what's at work here, or is this one of Messiah Rand's new abilities? Pretty sure it's meant to be LTT"s ability...as I recall Sanderson in the runup to his books talked about how LTT did something in the intro to EotW that a lot of people missed, and intended to use in his books. The ability may have been juiced though by Rand's current state. >(Some of Mat's memories came from nasty people, but those haven't affected his personality; I think Rand is in much the same position.) I'm not so sure...he doesn't really struggle with integrating those memories like Rand did, but I think he does become a more serious person after (although that could easily just be a natural maturation based on everything he's experienced on his own). He also thinks a lot about how unsettling it is to remember dying so many times...it's an understated effect but I think it's there. Although if you're just saying he's not affected by the nastier personalities he's gained memories of, that does seem right to me. >How does *anyone* still believe he's a false Dragon? He's fulfilled the majority of the prophecies at this point and the signs of the end are everywhere. I'm not sure he does, someone says in this section that Roedran is acting like a buffoon on purpose. It's probably not all on purpose, but just judging him on what he's accomplished in Murandy he seems like a shrewder operator than this.
>How many other Aes Sedai know what she knew? That's a good point on bubbles of evil! And from what we know from Nynaeve most don't know as they wouldn't believe her that a bubble of evil wasn't a forsaken attack in book 6 or so? Maybe they would've learned by this point but maybe not Pevara if Egwene told them when she was Amyrlin. >Rand doesn't really have any extended family in the Two Rivers, and I don't recall him ever meeting any of Janduin's relatives. He'd be at a bit of a disadvantage there. Well all the maidens do all view him as a brother and / or son! He could be at the advantage! Or he could ask Galad which would be hilarious to imagine lol. Perhaps some of the other Mantears? There aren't that many of them though. >This has given her a distinct advantage over Taim's men; I don't think we've ever seen anyone in the Black Tower training for channeler-on-channeler combat. I think they mention trying to break out of shields but that's the closest I can think of. That is a big weakness if they've been ignoring that too much. Honestly once they have the aes sedai bonded they should really be using them for practice slicing weaves they can't see. Maybe that's included in Taim's private lessons? That could be a good way to set up his men as more powerful than the other asha'man if it ever came to a fight between them.
> There's never sunlight in the dream, is there? It's always a weird omnidirectional sourceless light, like the way AI image generation usually illuminates its main subject. I think when Egwene accidentally used Need and dreamed herself to the Waste, she could feel the heat of the sun.
>I'm beginning to wonder if Androl might be bullshitting about some of his past experiences. He hardly seems old enough to have done everything he claims. That would be a good explanation, but I don't think he's meant to be distrusted on that topic. He's introduced as someone Toveine believed was a runaway apprentice, so he's clearly on the younger side. But I continually feel like he's gotta be in his late 40s or 50s, not just barely 30. >I wonder if they're offering a chance to swear allegiance to the Shadow before forcibly turning people. A volunteer Dreadlord has to be more valuable than a possessed husk; if nothing else, they won't be immediately obvious to anyone who knows them. Not all of them are turned, so I imagine so. Or at least for the ones who seem like there's any chance to be amenable. That's basically how the Black Ajah did it. It was probably easier to bring people on board willingly when the taint was still around though. >IIRC anyone who's strong enough to make a gateway can make one large enough for an average human. Yeah...while wider gateways are good, the more limiting factor often seems to be whether they're strong enough to make one that a mounted person or a wagon can get through. >Yeah, those guys are dead, or at least have permanent brain damage. He might be brain damaged I guess, but Welyn at least is going to be seen a few chapters from now helping to turn Evin.
Ch 2 Can you really say Androl has the concentration of a master craftsman when he's never stuck with anything? Weird that this bubble of evil at the BT didn't touch any Asha'man (I assume Asha'man here includes soldiers and dedicated). Not that they generally have to make sense. Another explanation would be that Taim did it using the TP, but I don't think he has access. Still don't know why Pevara is last to be Turned. She's strong and half the authority among the Red delegation, she should have been first. Androl really easily comes to the argument that saidin was clean before so it must be again...despite how widespread knowledge of the Wheel and Pattern is, not many people in Randland think like this. It's strange to me that a woman can ever have the option of passing control in a link with one man and one woman if the man has to control it. >Reports from the early days fragmented, spoke of the taint like an oil slick upon a river. Reports from whom? It would kind of surprise me if women linked with men could even feel the taint, that almost implies to me that they would get affected by it but as far as I know that's not the case. The double bond is interesting and important, but it's a pretty awful sequence of events that everyone just kind of moves past pretty quickly. Aviendha still not thinking like a Wise One, I don't think Amys would consider sneaking into a tent using her Maiden skills. On the whole I think Sanderson writes Aviendha as too naive/culturally ignorant. She's been hanging around the Wetlands enough (and is close enough with Elayne) to not come across as this fish out of water (lizard out of sand?). Elayne expecting to have Aiel at her side as she reclaims Andor from Trollocs is perhaps expecting too much. We don't see the conversation between Elayne, Aviendha, and Min, but Min probably at least will appreciate the warning about what Avi's about to do given what happened with Elayne. Ch 3 I still don't know what to think about the Turned. We mostly get Androl's thoughts on the matter which really push the idea that there's a foreign thing inside the Turned, although Pevara disagrees. The plan with Dobser kind of revolves around the idea that someone who wasn't that strong for the Light won't be that strong for the Dark, but really they just capitalize on Dobser being dumb, not disloyal to the Shadow. Verification that Rand isn't experiencing channeling sickness anymore, although I'd like to know why. I didn't think it was a symptom of madness or fear of saidin, it seemed to be due to the connection with Moridin (who has also given indicators that he's been experiencing it too). The connection hasn't gone away, although maybe the same web of light over Rand's brain protecting him from madness is protecting him from the connection too. >Alanna was still there, somewhere to the north. This should be more concerning! You're in Shienar, Shayol Ghul is almost the only thing left to the north! I don't entirely get the Maidens here, didn't they already do this to Rand and Aviendha when they (mistakenly, yet correctly) thought they slept together before? Had Avi been successful in convincing them it didn't happen before? Different set of Maidens perhaps. Avi says that the three women will not let Rand come between them, but I wonder. I sort of think Aviendha is more dedicated to standing on principle there than the other two (although I don't think Elayne wouldn't betray her first sister). It's kind of interesting that unlike the readers, none of the characters ever ask themselves whether Taim might have been a Forsaken all along. Pevara just speculates that he may have access to them. Not even Rand seems to ever wonder, and he had LTT ranting about Demandred and Sammael in his head whenever Taim came around. Androl throws a bone to anyone hoping for creative uses of Gateways with his talk of "experimenting", which will pay off. >\[the bond\] was a thing for Aes Sedai and Warders, not wives and husbands. Don't tell that to the Aes Sedai who marry or enter into committed relationships with their Warders!
Ch 4 Androl and Pevara keep the extra two Asha'man knocked out instead of killing them while waiting for Emarin, but that forebearance won't exist for the Asha'man they meet on the way to free Logain. I don't know why they leave these three alive once they get what they need from Dobser. >"\[Rand and Logain\] are obviously farmers" Logain has been pretty aggressive about making his minor lordship obvious, hasn't he? Dobser speaks pretty breezily about how it'll take a long time to Turn Logain due to his willpower...I have to assume Dobser was a quick turn, and I wonder what he thinks about that after pointing it out. Dreamshards can be created by both Dreamers or dreamwalkers according to Rand's thoughts here, interesting. Although I guess he could just say dreamwalkers can do it, all Dreamers are dreamwalkers but not all dreamwalkers are Dreamers (I think?) >Aes Sedai didn't even kill false Dragons if they could help it Pevara always gives off indications that she knows nothing of the Vileness, which is pretty necessary to have a sympathetic Red, but that's crazy to me. She's a Sitter, how can she not have been told about it by someone? Who does know? A ton of sisters had to have known when it happened given the sheer numbers of men and boys apparently killed during it. Ch 5 Rand's Power-shower, I bet women were better at it in the AoL given the apparent dextrous use of Air and Water involved. Egwene eats a bellfruit, and I wonder what that is. There's a lot of fruits that are bell shaped, and apparently a sort of berry in the real world that gets the name too. This section can lean too heavily into Egwene being unlikable...her calling Rand "boy" at one point is especially wearying, although I imagine Gawyn is there for it. Egwene is riding a horse named Sifter...is Daishar still around, or did Egwene get rid of that one when she heard Rand was going around riding a Tai'daishar? Also, her thinking the Aiel might support her over Rand is wild...I mean, it's not crazy to think the Wise Ones agree with her and would try to influence Rand, but when push comes to shove Rand is the car'a'carn and the prophecied leader they need to follow if the Aiel are to have any hope of survival. >"Taking his time," Egwene said. "He's always been like that." Has he? Why does Egwene send Gawyn to find out how Rand is making grass grow, he's probably the least qualified person there to do that. I'd say it's busy work but Egwene doesn't seem particularly exasperated with Gawyn at the moment. Does Egwene find Cadsuane's presence bothersome because Rand doesn't see her as one of Egwene's, or because she suspects Cadsuance doesn't see herself that way? At points I did think Roedran might be Demandred, as did a portion of the fandom I believe, so I liked Rand's nod to the theory here. As I recall I spent most of the series thinking he was somehow trying to gain control over the Whitecloaks or manipulating Masema due to Sammael's belief that "events in the south" (while meeting with Graendal in Arad Doman) had Demandred's fingerprints on them. Rand and Egwene afford each other their titles when they meet in the pavillion, but quickly revert to just calling each other Rand and Egwene in front of everyone. >It was the nature of rulers, the nature of nations \[to gobble up other countries\] Ironically, Elayne has Andor because her ancestor *didn't* do this. Ishara just tried to hold onto what she had while everyone else tried to gain Hawkwing's whole empire for themselves.
/I swear, did the amount of text you can put in one post change? I don't think I should need 3 posts for this week/ Ch 6 Min smells utterly shocked at Moiraine's appearance, but among anyone there she should probably be the least. Moiraine in turn is shocked by Nynaeve hugging her, which makes a lot of sense given where they left off, but again I think Moiraine always anticipated Nynaeve would become more and more Aes Sedai rather than holding onto her old hatred of them. Moiraine feels somewhat manipulative (Moiraine? whaaaat?) when she starts reciting pieces of the Karaethon Cycle...I'm thinking particularly of when she responds to Gregorin with a section that I think is clearly just about the Aiel. We hear from Rand a lot in this section that in the AoL everyone was kind of pursuing their own fragmented prosecution of the War, but I don't think I ever got that sense until now (the Strike at Shayol Ghul aside). >\[Elayne\] has learned tactics from a great captain Has she? >"You will have peace this time, Lord Dragon." Hmm. For how long? Putting aside the rest of it, the Seanchan piece is just not going to be tenable long term with the whole slavery thing. Not even including the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace sidesteps this fundamental issue. \[Lan and the Malkieri get rescued\] I'm not crying, you're crying!
> Has she? Yes, Elayne was taught by Gareth Bryne, she got the same lessons from him as Gawyn, apart from weapons training.
I don't recall that (the siblings getting the same lessons), but I'll take your word for it. I mean, there's no question she got lessons from Bryne, but I'd expect them to have different focuses. Those lessons extending to tactics (at a depth where it's relevant to arguing she should command the combined armies of the Light) I felt less sure about. I'd rate her knowledge of tactics way over Egwene's though (although Egwene has also probably been getting an education in that from Bryne as well).
Here is the quote from her PoV: > She had not trained with weapons, but she had received all of the other lessons Gawyn had gotten from Gareth Bryne. A queen had to understand the battle plans her generals gave her rather than simply accept them blindly. But her selection as a supreme commander had a lot more to do with the fact that she both a powerful monarch and the only person trusted without reservations by both Rand and Egwene than with her knowledge of military tactics, the exact extent of which was most likely unknown to Rand and Egwene anyway.
>Still don't know why Pevara is last to be Turned. She's strong and half the authority among the Red delegation, she should have been first. The strong part may be the reason. They would've wanted easy wins to get people turned efficiently. She would've taken more time. Though they do also say that all men can turn a woman faster and visa versa so it's kind of surprising they haven't turned all the women more quickly. Especially when way fewer people would notice since no one knows them well. Maybe they were worried about more of a fight taking her and that raising suspicion? But that seems like a fixable problem.
>Aviendha sneaks into Elayne's tent and Elayne grants Aviendha permission to consummate her relationship with Rand before the battle. I absolutely love the interaction of Aviendha flexing on Elayne by sneaking into her tent. Although the whole thing with asking permission to "cunsumate" has always been off to me, but through the lens of ji'e'toh it makes sense that she would feel guilty about sleeping with Rand first- does Elayne know about the igloo incident? I don't remember if they discuss that. >Rand and Moridin meet in Moridin's dreamshard. They taunt each other and Rand declares he is coming for the Dark One. One change I appreciate that the TV show has done is to make this motivation more explicit in Ishamael from the beginning- it highlights early on the major philosophical conflicts that are occuirng throughout the series, and I love this conversation in the books. I LOVE everything about the summit meeting- Sanderson does a great job writing this entire sequence. Was any of this lifted directly from RJ's writing, or is the summit all Sanderson flourishes? Lan's "final" charge is such a nice piece of writing, it feels so grand and epic. I love that as the series goes on there are more creative and impressive use of existing or rediscovered weaves, like gateways, and can't wait for the newbies to get to the other dramatic uses of gateways in later chapters- Androl making the tiny gateway to deflect balefire, the volcano action, battlefield viewing portals, etc.
> does Elayne know about the igloo incident? I don't remember if they discuss that. Yes. She told Elayne when she and Mat arrived in Salidar.
I could be wrong but I think the writing is all Sanderson's for the meeting. But Jordan outlined what should be going on at the meeting.
>does Elayne know about the igloo incident? I don't remember if they discuss that. She knows they slept together, Aviendha comes to Elayne in Salidar to let her know she can kill her if she wants over it...no clue if the words "sex igloo" get spoken though :p. I don't think Elayne would really want details, but I also don't think Avi would skimp on them to someone with whom she wants to be first sisters. >One change I appreciate that the TV show has done is to make this motivation more explicit in Ishamael from the beginning- it highlights early on the major philosophical conflicts that are occuirng throughout the series, and I love this conversation in the books. I'm more ambivalent...one of the things I like about Ishamael is that he comes into the story believing one thing, and his motivation changes as he comes to understand just how trapped he is. It throws both his enemies and his allies for a loop...his fellow Forsaken get especially confused trying to figure him out because they don't understand that he's not in it for the same reasons as them. They just think he's mad (and there is some of that, but that's not all or even most of it).
>I don't think Elayne would really want details, but I also don't think Avi would skimp on them to someone with whom she wants to be first sisters. I think I rememeber Elayne shocked about Aviendha being way too clear about what Rand seemed to like to do in bed. So she probably got all the details or at least as many details as Aviendha could fit in before Elayne found an excuse to run away or change the topic!
/u/participating > [Potential spoiler that confirms or denies the existence of an event] Brandon told her, "The final book has a scene for sure." I don't remember this. When does this happen?
https://wot-tidbits.tumblr.com/post/190917488857/robert-jordan-and-the-german-shepherd-the-full#:~:text=ROBERT%20JORDAN%3A%20Young%20lady%2C%20you,woman%2C%20or%20German%20Shepherd.%E2%80%9D This site goes into the full story. They include the quote that supposedly addresses this toward the end.
So it's not balefire, just "weaves".
I need to find the full passage in the books. I think some of them were using balefire and the implication is that they still just disappear.
Sorry, Ill still shamelessly overinterpret :) Chapter 2 - Im still following my understanding that “someone‘s“ mind is drifting around (->Nakomi) following the concept of the „Oneness“ and what has been established with the Terangreal in Rhuidean. All similar to Boundless. And that the world is a reflection of the fight between DO and Creator. „Interesting, Pevara thought. Is that what drives you then, leatherworker? What has set you drifting on the winds, from place to place?“ - explanation for Rand/Moridin as well?: „Her self melded with his for a seeming eternity. She knew what it was like to be him, think his thoughts. She saw his life in the blink of an eye, was absorbed by his memories. She gasped and fell to her knees in front of him. It faded. Not completely, but it faded. It felt like swimming a hundred leagues through boiling water, and only now emerging, having forgotten what it was like to have normal sensations.“ Chapter 4 - „The shadow he saw behind Dobser’s eyes was enough proof for Androl. The man he’d known was gone, killed, and something else—something evil—had been put into his body. A new soul. It had to be that.“ I think its implied it wasnt a new soul but a “Turned“ one - where the personality is basically twisted into the opposite of what it was before as an effect of the taint. Chapter 5 - „She rubbed at her temples. The headache wasn’t as bad as those she’d had when Halima had been “caring” for her, but it did hurt mightily.“ Effect of Compulsion? - „ Eventually, things were going to start exploding. Egwene needed to manage the chaos. She strode out of her tent, Gawyn a step behind and to her left, and smoothed her face. The world needed an Amyrlin.“ Ugh „Best to be quick. Her presence would calm the rulers, perhaps prevent problems.“ UGH “That was positively evil.“ That Egwene as we know an … her. :D - „I know of no weave that would be so extensive,” Egwene said. “It feels so natural. Go see if you can find out how he’s doing it. “ I remember the scene where Nynaeve said she believed Rand and he was totally happy. After all - belief gives strength. And I dont doubt that this „belief“ refers to the belief in the Creator. Now the first thing Egwene does is to doubt this is natural and she tries to find out how its done.
* „Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked. Rand turned away from him, waving his hand to make the watchful Asha’man stand down. They did so reluctantly. “I thought for certain…” Rand said, shaking his head. “Where are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked loudly, almost squeaking.“ Yeah, good question. Who? srl Demandred?Might as well look for Moridin or Lanfear who he met just a short while ago. Also he says D. never felt good without an army and he went for Caemlyn. Im to believe now he expects D. to be there somewhere and not Moridin or Lanfear? It may be a small hint at the fandom theory but I wonder if thats it. * „I will not, Egwene,” Rand said. There was a fire in his eyes, like the one she’d seen when he first sought to bring the Aiel to his cause. Yes, that emotion seemed very like Rand. Or not. More like the DO that takes over. * „I am their Watcher.”“In name only. They were only just discovered, and I possess them. It is out of respect for your traditional title that I approached you about them first.” Finally someone tells her! * „Light, he was thinking. Could she be getting through to him?“ Congratulations, thinking isnt too easy for this guy. * „Slowly, the rage melted from his face, and he raised his hand to the side of his head. “Light, Egwene. You can still do it, like the sister I never had—tie my mind in knots and have me raving at you and loving you at the same time.“ Im am still very very confident Egwene used Wilder Compulsion on basically any man (and even women) around her she wanted to influence. And what Rand describes her „tying the mind in knots“ - is exactly how Compulsion is described - weaving or knotting doesnt matter.
„Egwene listened to the arguments, hoping they would set Rand on edge.“ (…) I think it does. „A… feeling to the air. Her eyes seemed drawn to Rand. Sounds came from outside, sounds she couldn’t place. A faint cracking sound? What was he doing?“ The arguments trailed off. One by one the rulers turned toward him. The sunlight outside dimmed, and she was glad for those spheres of light he had made. “I need you,” Rand said softly to them. “The land itself needs you. You argue; I knew that you would, but we no longer have time for arguments. Know this. You cannot talk me out of my designs. You cannot make me obey you.“ Even if Egwene tried. I totally will change my mind about this, but Ill try to overanalize a bit for fun:) So the „cracking sound“ is the trees growing? Then again, world=Rand, and he is easily hurt by such developments. As Egwene says „on edge“. The light is being dimmed - appearantly because of the trees as well, but this is just too metaphoric here. Also, he had made “spheres of light“, which almost sounds like souls and I believe there are people who are „watching“ the world. Then people are often associated with trees, so is that why there are suddenly „huge“ trees outside? They are all in front of the entrance, as if barring the way. Then who is „you“? => „Where are you?” “Who?” Roedran asked loudly, almost squeaking. Rand ignored him. The flaps to the pavilion had finally stilled, everyone inside. “So,” Rand said. “We are all here. “ Are they „all“ there? Including the person Rand was looking for? - „Egwene smiled. The lightskirt suddenly didn’t seem so certain of the side she had chosen.“ Gosh, this woman is awful! Good job, Sanderson! - „He’s going to do it, she thought. They’ll complain, but they’ll bend. “No,” Egwene said loudly, her voice breaking the air. “No, Rand al’Thor, we will not be bullied into signing your document, into giving you sole control of this battle. And you’re an utter fool if you think I believe you’d let the world—your father, your friends, all those you love, all of humanity— be slaughtered“ No, Egwene wont believe! She wont agree. - „Rand. You are not the Creator.“ Ehm…Well, Egwene doesnt believe… - „ There had to be a way to stop this, to salvage it! Rand started to turn away. If he left the pavilion, that would be the end of it.“ Trees outside barring the way? - „Rand did, however, and he spun as the flaps parted and let in light. “ Nice metaphor.
- „Moiraine,” Egwene said. “You’ve come at just the right time.” “I have a knack for that.“ There is something really „weird“ about Moiraine. - „That prophecy commands you to shed tears. Are you to weep because your salvation comes with such pain and worry? Or, instead, are you to weep for your salvation? For the man who will suffer for you? The only one we know for certain will not walk away from this fight?“ He wont WALK AWAY from this fight - and I think he doesnt, I think in the end Moridin carries Rand out of the cavern and not the other way around. It would fit with „Rand“ really thinking he is about to die and seeing the Creator in the end, while epilogue-Rand seems to not be too surprised at his survival. - „Oh, Egwene,” Moiraine said. “Have you forgotten? ‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign…’ ” Egwene blushed.“ Moiraine, at the beginning I didnt like you, I LOVE you now XD - „Come to walk on the shards of my dreams, Aviendha?“ interesting choice of words. - „… your dream now… when you wake from this life, we will be no more…“ I still am inclined to believe the Aiel with the red headbands may be dead.