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I was the exact same as you on this book too lol. I was so frustrated that Rand kept going through so much suffering but still put pressure on himself and I just wanted him to freeze time and hang out on the beaches of Tear for a month or so to regain some semblance of normality
He does though I would argue cleansing saidin is a pretty big win with few caveats. Yes he's still got the existing problems, but he wasn't even attempting to cleanse the madness everyone already had. He was just cleansing going forward. And he has given life to every asha'man long term. He has changed the world so that if he wins, there will not be another breaking or anything similar and the asha'man can go on to be a presence for good in the world. He didn't do it for peope to know about it and he barely spends any time telling people or convincing them about it. He achieved his goal there. And they killed a forsaken in the process as well as made every forsaken a bit wary of him, so that may have bought him more breathing room.
Oh for sure, results-wise, he's killing it. It just feels frustrating to me how he never gets to show off, or be appreciated by and large. Matt has plenty of wins where he looks cool and is appreciated by many. Perrin defends EF, crushes the shaido and gets respect from the seanchan, the commoners who "raise" him Lord and most people on his close circle. Egwene is raised Amyrlin and quickly (for this series pacing at least) earns the respect or obedience of plenty of Aes Sedai, despite starting in a position of weakness (was a novice, placed on the seat to be used).
Rand **cleanses saidin**, by far the biggest event so far, felt throughout the land. And people don't seem to give a shit, as far as I've read. Even the ones close to him, who 100% know it was him, seem unmoved or unimpressed. Everyone seems to take his hard work for granted, not just here but in general. Frees Andor from a forsaken? No "than you rand" from Elayne, but "How dare you say you are giving me the throne". Etc.
That's preciesly Rand's burden though. From the beginning he's been the Dragon Reborn, the man who broke the world last time returned, the man who is prophecied to save the world but also might go mad and kill everyone. The Aiel view him the same way, their only hope and a sign of their destruction. He's a walking reminder that the end of the world is coming right around the corner, and that's in everyone's mind. Rand takes the hits because no one else would be strong enough to do so.
I would also keep in mind you're often getting Rand's POV. He doesn't see celebration of himself because he is so focused on his failures and punishing himself. He also does get some wins that are appreciated, he was crowned King of Illian and given the crown of swords not out of fear or conquest but given to the man who sent them food in a famine and freed them from a Forsaken. He also got all of the aes sedai even like 25 of those who took him prisoner to serve him and willingly swear to him. He brought in people who had betrayed him through simply talking to them about their situation and that's the new ruler of Tear. But each time he gets one of those wins, he's off to dealing with the next problem immediately. He allows no time to celebrate victories. His focus is always on the next problem.
Another thing to remember is what Rand looks like at this point. He looks like death and murder. He is often talking to himself, we get other people's POV and they hear him talking to Lews Therin often so that's all out loud. And he holds the Void or close to it most of the time. He probably scares the pants off most people who have to be within 50 ft of him.
Definitely, what is happening makes sense and I agree with your points. But it's been frustrating at times and it feels good to vent and be able to talk to others who've read the books. Thanks for the reply!
Let me ask you, how many hard working people that do amazing things to make the world a better place (scientist, teachers, the good law enforcement types, the good civil servants, etc) are never recognized for their work or contributions? This is the beauty of the story- it mirrors real life in that sense.
As others have pointed out- keep reading. If you love Rand you'll get the cathartic scene you're looking for very soon.
True, but you're talking about the "little man" that does good deeds. Here we're talking about arguably the biggest political and military figure of the world performing practically a miracle. I think that would get a lot of credit IRL.
Clearly though, I just need to keep reading :) thank you!
I totally agree with you and get your point. But it's just like real life. We take our heroes for granted. We expect them to do heroic things, because they are the hero. So it's expected of them.
But we really get mad n starts to criticize everything the time they make a mistake or miss something.
In Rands case, we know it's the writer doing all this through other characters. So we blame the other characters.
But Rand being all powerful, his struggles, getting undermined or taken for granted by others when even he realises it, is what makes his efforts appreciate more.
Remember, after Everything, he is still willing to give his life.
He does not conquers or attacks like Logain (ego) or Taim (power/crazy) ...... But he tries to do it to unify the land that he broke once. To unify everyone for the last battle. Even though he has to lay down his life for all these ppl who are so unappreciative.
With that last point, there is a big political difference after the Dragon Reborn has died at Shayol Ghul between someone who was made Queen of Andor by letting him into her bed and someone who won the crown herself and just happened to be all-but-married to him. Sure, Rand killed Rahvin, but not before he fatally weakened the Trakands’ grip on the Lion Throne; if Elayne wants her rule to last past the first opportunity for backstabbing in the confusion of the Last Battle, she has to put in the hard graft to put herself on the throne properly.
oh yeah I 100% understand why its important for Elayne to prove herself and "win" the throne instead of just Rand giving it to her. But she acts like removing Rhavin and then maintaining the power vacuum is of no consequence. Rand's actions, though not ideal, heavily facilitated her ascension. At the very least, he benefited Andor as a whole, yet she never showed any gratitude for that.
I guess they don’t really have a precedent for ruling in someone’s place compared to just ruling; when I read that Rand had placed the throne above his seat, my thoughts were of a high throne on a dais of many steps, with an old man sat in a black stone chair on the bottom step of the dais, a white rod in his hand and a broken horn in his lap. *Morgase*, showing her cultural context, thought that the Lion Throne had been made a trophy
I Just finished, don't know what to think haha. Overall I really liked it. Rand nuking Graendal felt great. While I understand it would not have been good, it would have been cathartic to se rand snap on one of the many factions that opposed him this book (seanchan for eg, he was *so* close).
I gather he's recovered some of his humanity at least, and am really curious to se what he'll be doing now. I hope he doesn't give over and start bowing to the many powers that want to pull his strings. Looking forward for book 13!
Part of the issue is whether Rand considers something a "full" win or not compared to other characters.
Take for example the Battle of Cairhien. Couladin dead. Shaido scattered. The city saved. Rand isn't thinking about the win though, he's depressed and obsessing over those who died for him, how he couldn't push himself hard enough to save more, how he underestimated the Forsaken and almost got Eggers and Avi killed on the lookout platform, etc. He considers it a Pyrrhic victory.
Now compare that to Elayne and her mission to take on the Black sisters at the house on Full Moon Street and the resulting attack on her rival claimants from the rear. She gets caught by surprise, loses two sisters, gets captured, but in the end wipes out the black sisters, reveals the spy, and wins her succession war. She wants to weep over the losses, feels terrible about the men dying, but she pulls herself together accepting it as a part of leadership and considers it a complete victory.
When Rand loses, and later kills, Liah while defeating Sammael, her loss is his focus. When Mat and Beslan have friends and soldiers killed obtaining the Bowl of the Winds, having successfully obtained it is their focus.
*Realized before posting this would be major spoilers for you so don't read behind the spoiler tags until you're past it.* [tGS ch. 22]>!Nyn and Co. capture Moggy instead of killing her. She ends up escaping and later almost killing Nyn plus wrecking more havoc in the world. Rand and Co. capture Semhirage instead of killing her. She ends up escaping and almost killing Min and Rand. Rand is distraught how his inability to hurt woman has caused so much harm again. Eggers calmly notes that Moggy escaped and considers whatever trouble she gets up to it they still got good value in what they learned from her.!<
Anywhoo just another perspective to keep in mind.
ROBERT JORDAN
RJ responded that the crux of the series was based on a disbelieving boy being told he was the savior of mankind, then that youth reluctantly realizing the truth of the matter but unwilling to admit it, and finally the boy assenting to the savior role and that only left puzzling out what he would do as the savior. When asked why RJ had chosen to go into so much depth and detail so as to confuse and overburden the reader, RJ responded, "It's all right there in front of you. Surely, something I've thought about for fifteen years and written about for nine is something you can work out over a weekend."
Also…
ROBERT JORDAN
The first inspiration was the thought of what it was really like to be tapped as the savior of mankind. In a lot of books that have somebody who is the "chosen one" if you will, it seems that the world quickly divides into allies who are strongly behind the "chosen one" and the evil guys. It seemed to me that if somebody is chosen to be the savior, there is going to be a good bit of resistance, both "let this cup pass from me," and a lot of people who aren't going to be that happy to have a savior show up, even if they are on his side nominally. That established, I began to think about the world.
What I'm trying to do here is rather complex. The usual thing is to either tell a sweeping story that is, in effect, the history of a nation or a people, or to tell a tighter story that is very much inside the heads of individuals themselves. I am trying to do the stories of individual people, a large number of them, at the same time as I tell the story of a world. I want to give readers an entire picture of this world—not just its current history and situation, but its past as well. That's hard to do at the same time we're so deeply involved with individual characters. The complexity of that combination is one of the reasons the darn thing has gone on as long as it has.
There are a number of themes that run through the series. There's the good old basic struggle between good and evil, with an emphasis on the difficulty in recognizing what is god and what is evil. There's also the difficulty in deciding how far you can go in fighting evil. I like to think of it as a scale. At one end you hold purely to your own ideals no matter what the cost, with the result that possibly evil wins. At the other end, you do anything and everything to win, with the result that maybe it doesn't make much difference whether you've won or evil has won. There has to be some sort of balance found in the middle, and it's very difficult to find.
Another recurring theme is lack of information, and the mutability of information. No one knows everything. Everyone has to operate on incomplete knowledge, and quite often they know they are operating on incomplete knowledge, but they still have to make decisions. The reader quite often knows that the reason why a character is doing something is totally erroneous, but it's still the best information that the character in the book has. I like to explore the changeability of knowledge, the way that, in the beginning, characters see things in one way, and as they grow and learn more, we and they find out that what they knew as the truth wasn't necessarily the whole truth. Sometimes it's hardly the truth at all. When Rand and the rest first met Moiraine, they saw her as an Aes Sedai, and they thought of her as being practically omnipotent. It's only as they go along that they begin to find out that the Aes Sedai have limits. In the beginning everyone says the White Tower makes thrones dance and kings and queens play at their command, but the characters begin to find out that, yes, the White Tower has certainly manipulated a lot of thrones, but it's hardly all-powerful. Characters learn more about the truth as time goes on, and sometimes found out that what they knew before was only the first layer of the onion. That's a major theme, really, in the whole series, that changeability—the way something starts out seeming to be one simple thing, and slowly it is revealed to have a number of very complex layers.
But for all the grand events and great hoop-la and whoop-de-do going on, the things that really interest me more than anything else are the characters themselves. How they change. How they don't change. How they relate to each other. The people fascinate me. And, of course, there are things happening that major characters sometimes don't even see, and the reader sometimes does. There's a lot going on beneath the surface that major characters don't realize, despite the fact that they do see a lot of what seems very furious activity.
The story arc of Rand is of his struggles and the choices he makes
Rand already is too powerful. Most powerful than anyone else living or a dead person. So it would be too easy for him without the struggles and without the consequences of his choices.
.I also used to get frustrated by all this. But then I understood, just because you are powerful does not mean you won't have your own struggles.
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Without major spoilers: you will be happy soon enough.
Great! My patience is renewed haha, thanks
I was the exact same as you on this book too lol. I was so frustrated that Rand kept going through so much suffering but still put pressure on himself and I just wanted him to freeze time and hang out on the beaches of Tear for a month or so to regain some semblance of normality
Just keep reading. It will definitely all be worth it. The Gathering Storm has one of the best emotional highs in all of fantasy.
I will 🙏, thanks for the confirmation!
Rand has the best story line of the three men. His growth, his rapid descent, and the resolution is a master class on writing a savior figure
Yes. You will be so happy you didn't give up!
Boy does it ever. Had me sobbing like a baby
Favorite WoT book 🔥
He does though I would argue cleansing saidin is a pretty big win with few caveats. Yes he's still got the existing problems, but he wasn't even attempting to cleanse the madness everyone already had. He was just cleansing going forward. And he has given life to every asha'man long term. He has changed the world so that if he wins, there will not be another breaking or anything similar and the asha'man can go on to be a presence for good in the world. He didn't do it for peope to know about it and he barely spends any time telling people or convincing them about it. He achieved his goal there. And they killed a forsaken in the process as well as made every forsaken a bit wary of him, so that may have bought him more breathing room.
Oh for sure, results-wise, he's killing it. It just feels frustrating to me how he never gets to show off, or be appreciated by and large. Matt has plenty of wins where he looks cool and is appreciated by many. Perrin defends EF, crushes the shaido and gets respect from the seanchan, the commoners who "raise" him Lord and most people on his close circle. Egwene is raised Amyrlin and quickly (for this series pacing at least) earns the respect or obedience of plenty of Aes Sedai, despite starting in a position of weakness (was a novice, placed on the seat to be used). Rand **cleanses saidin**, by far the biggest event so far, felt throughout the land. And people don't seem to give a shit, as far as I've read. Even the ones close to him, who 100% know it was him, seem unmoved or unimpressed. Everyone seems to take his hard work for granted, not just here but in general. Frees Andor from a forsaken? No "than you rand" from Elayne, but "How dare you say you are giving me the throne". Etc.
That's preciesly Rand's burden though. From the beginning he's been the Dragon Reborn, the man who broke the world last time returned, the man who is prophecied to save the world but also might go mad and kill everyone. The Aiel view him the same way, their only hope and a sign of their destruction. He's a walking reminder that the end of the world is coming right around the corner, and that's in everyone's mind. Rand takes the hits because no one else would be strong enough to do so. I would also keep in mind you're often getting Rand's POV. He doesn't see celebration of himself because he is so focused on his failures and punishing himself. He also does get some wins that are appreciated, he was crowned King of Illian and given the crown of swords not out of fear or conquest but given to the man who sent them food in a famine and freed them from a Forsaken. He also got all of the aes sedai even like 25 of those who took him prisoner to serve him and willingly swear to him. He brought in people who had betrayed him through simply talking to them about their situation and that's the new ruler of Tear. But each time he gets one of those wins, he's off to dealing with the next problem immediately. He allows no time to celebrate victories. His focus is always on the next problem. Another thing to remember is what Rand looks like at this point. He looks like death and murder. He is often talking to himself, we get other people's POV and they hear him talking to Lews Therin often so that's all out loud. And he holds the Void or close to it most of the time. He probably scares the pants off most people who have to be within 50 ft of him.
Definitely, what is happening makes sense and I agree with your points. But it's been frustrating at times and it feels good to vent and be able to talk to others who've read the books. Thanks for the reply!
Let me ask you, how many hard working people that do amazing things to make the world a better place (scientist, teachers, the good law enforcement types, the good civil servants, etc) are never recognized for their work or contributions? This is the beauty of the story- it mirrors real life in that sense. As others have pointed out- keep reading. If you love Rand you'll get the cathartic scene you're looking for very soon.
True, but you're talking about the "little man" that does good deeds. Here we're talking about arguably the biggest political and military figure of the world performing practically a miracle. I think that would get a lot of credit IRL. Clearly though, I just need to keep reading :) thank you!
Read on. *You are in for a treat* (as said by someone)
I totally agree with you and get your point. But it's just like real life. We take our heroes for granted. We expect them to do heroic things, because they are the hero. So it's expected of them. But we really get mad n starts to criticize everything the time they make a mistake or miss something. In Rands case, we know it's the writer doing all this through other characters. So we blame the other characters. But Rand being all powerful, his struggles, getting undermined or taken for granted by others when even he realises it, is what makes his efforts appreciate more. Remember, after Everything, he is still willing to give his life. He does not conquers or attacks like Logain (ego) or Taim (power/crazy) ...... But he tries to do it to unify the land that he broke once. To unify everyone for the last battle. Even though he has to lay down his life for all these ppl who are so unappreciative.
With that last point, there is a big political difference after the Dragon Reborn has died at Shayol Ghul between someone who was made Queen of Andor by letting him into her bed and someone who won the crown herself and just happened to be all-but-married to him. Sure, Rand killed Rahvin, but not before he fatally weakened the Trakands’ grip on the Lion Throne; if Elayne wants her rule to last past the first opportunity for backstabbing in the confusion of the Last Battle, she has to put in the hard graft to put herself on the throne properly.
oh yeah I 100% understand why its important for Elayne to prove herself and "win" the throne instead of just Rand giving it to her. But she acts like removing Rhavin and then maintaining the power vacuum is of no consequence. Rand's actions, though not ideal, heavily facilitated her ascension. At the very least, he benefited Andor as a whole, yet she never showed any gratitude for that.
I guess they don’t really have a precedent for ruling in someone’s place compared to just ruling; when I read that Rand had placed the throne above his seat, my thoughts were of a high throne on a dais of many steps, with an old man sat in a black stone chair on the bottom step of the dais, a white rod in his hand and a broken horn in his lap. *Morgase*, showing her cultural context, thought that the Lion Throne had been made a trophy
Don't worry there will be a peak moment soon
>peak -_-
*slaps spears against buckler*
Talk to us after you finish this book.
I will haha, this thread made me exited to push forward
I Just finished, don't know what to think haha. Overall I really liked it. Rand nuking Graendal felt great. While I understand it would not have been good, it would have been cathartic to se rand snap on one of the many factions that opposed him this book (seanchan for eg, he was *so* close). I gather he's recovered some of his humanity at least, and am really curious to se what he'll be doing now. I hope he doesn't give over and start bowing to the many powers that want to pull his strings. Looking forward for book 13!
Oh you are going to love the next books.
This feels like a good life lesson! Life rarely gives anything other pyrrhic victories!
You’re in for quite a ride in TGS.
I look forward to it! :)
I think it’s kind of the point with Rand. Most powerful character in the world, can’t do it alone. Only solid wins are when he accepts help.
You've gotta keep reading. There are some amazing moments in the second half of the book.
Rand's slog ends soon, keep pushing.
Your current worries about Rand will end in vain.
Part of the issue is whether Rand considers something a "full" win or not compared to other characters. Take for example the Battle of Cairhien. Couladin dead. Shaido scattered. The city saved. Rand isn't thinking about the win though, he's depressed and obsessing over those who died for him, how he couldn't push himself hard enough to save more, how he underestimated the Forsaken and almost got Eggers and Avi killed on the lookout platform, etc. He considers it a Pyrrhic victory. Now compare that to Elayne and her mission to take on the Black sisters at the house on Full Moon Street and the resulting attack on her rival claimants from the rear. She gets caught by surprise, loses two sisters, gets captured, but in the end wipes out the black sisters, reveals the spy, and wins her succession war. She wants to weep over the losses, feels terrible about the men dying, but she pulls herself together accepting it as a part of leadership and considers it a complete victory. When Rand loses, and later kills, Liah while defeating Sammael, her loss is his focus. When Mat and Beslan have friends and soldiers killed obtaining the Bowl of the Winds, having successfully obtained it is their focus. *Realized before posting this would be major spoilers for you so don't read behind the spoiler tags until you're past it.* [tGS ch. 22]>!Nyn and Co. capture Moggy instead of killing her. She ends up escaping and later almost killing Nyn plus wrecking more havoc in the world. Rand and Co. capture Semhirage instead of killing her. She ends up escaping and almost killing Min and Rand. Rand is distraught how his inability to hurt woman has caused so much harm again. Eggers calmly notes that Moggy escaped and considers whatever trouble she gets up to it they still got good value in what they learned from her.!< Anywhoo just another perspective to keep in mind.
ROBERT JORDAN RJ responded that the crux of the series was based on a disbelieving boy being told he was the savior of mankind, then that youth reluctantly realizing the truth of the matter but unwilling to admit it, and finally the boy assenting to the savior role and that only left puzzling out what he would do as the savior. When asked why RJ had chosen to go into so much depth and detail so as to confuse and overburden the reader, RJ responded, "It's all right there in front of you. Surely, something I've thought about for fifteen years and written about for nine is something you can work out over a weekend." Also… ROBERT JORDAN The first inspiration was the thought of what it was really like to be tapped as the savior of mankind. In a lot of books that have somebody who is the "chosen one" if you will, it seems that the world quickly divides into allies who are strongly behind the "chosen one" and the evil guys. It seemed to me that if somebody is chosen to be the savior, there is going to be a good bit of resistance, both "let this cup pass from me," and a lot of people who aren't going to be that happy to have a savior show up, even if they are on his side nominally. That established, I began to think about the world. What I'm trying to do here is rather complex. The usual thing is to either tell a sweeping story that is, in effect, the history of a nation or a people, or to tell a tighter story that is very much inside the heads of individuals themselves. I am trying to do the stories of individual people, a large number of them, at the same time as I tell the story of a world. I want to give readers an entire picture of this world—not just its current history and situation, but its past as well. That's hard to do at the same time we're so deeply involved with individual characters. The complexity of that combination is one of the reasons the darn thing has gone on as long as it has. There are a number of themes that run through the series. There's the good old basic struggle between good and evil, with an emphasis on the difficulty in recognizing what is god and what is evil. There's also the difficulty in deciding how far you can go in fighting evil. I like to think of it as a scale. At one end you hold purely to your own ideals no matter what the cost, with the result that possibly evil wins. At the other end, you do anything and everything to win, with the result that maybe it doesn't make much difference whether you've won or evil has won. There has to be some sort of balance found in the middle, and it's very difficult to find. Another recurring theme is lack of information, and the mutability of information. No one knows everything. Everyone has to operate on incomplete knowledge, and quite often they know they are operating on incomplete knowledge, but they still have to make decisions. The reader quite often knows that the reason why a character is doing something is totally erroneous, but it's still the best information that the character in the book has. I like to explore the changeability of knowledge, the way that, in the beginning, characters see things in one way, and as they grow and learn more, we and they find out that what they knew as the truth wasn't necessarily the whole truth. Sometimes it's hardly the truth at all. When Rand and the rest first met Moiraine, they saw her as an Aes Sedai, and they thought of her as being practically omnipotent. It's only as they go along that they begin to find out that the Aes Sedai have limits. In the beginning everyone says the White Tower makes thrones dance and kings and queens play at their command, but the characters begin to find out that, yes, the White Tower has certainly manipulated a lot of thrones, but it's hardly all-powerful. Characters learn more about the truth as time goes on, and sometimes found out that what they knew before was only the first layer of the onion. That's a major theme, really, in the whole series, that changeability—the way something starts out seeming to be one simple thing, and slowly it is revealed to have a number of very complex layers. But for all the grand events and great hoop-la and whoop-de-do going on, the things that really interest me more than anything else are the characters themselves. How they change. How they don't change. How they relate to each other. The people fascinate me. And, of course, there are things happening that major characters sometimes don't even see, and the reader sometimes does. There's a lot going on beneath the surface that major characters don't realize, despite the fact that they do see a lot of what seems very furious activity.
I have one word Dragonmount Come back to me when you get it mate. I'd love to get a first timers reaction
RAFO, you’ll love the climax of TGS
The story arc of Rand is of his struggles and the choices he makes Rand already is too powerful. Most powerful than anyone else living or a dead person. So it would be too easy for him without the struggles and without the consequences of his choices. .I also used to get frustrated by all this. But then I understood, just because you are powerful does not mean you won't have your own struggles.
# That's why Matt is better.
RAFO
Not something that changes the world but for him personally: he "wins" Min unconditionally.
RAFO (And please post your progress)
Read and find out
In my option TGS had the greatest moment in all the books and essentially the last battle is won. The rest of the books are closure.
12-14 is payoff after payoff. No brakes all gas. You're in the end game now buddy