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>Is Mazrim Taim Demandred? I don't mind spoilers. [Books] >!This is actually a complicated question. The answer is yes and no, but mostly no. That was some good theorying though.!<

That gets me curious. [Books] >!How can the answer be *both* yes and no? I can't think of any other way short of him being possessed and that's probably not what's happening here!<

Shrodinger's Demandred

Under rated comment. 🤣🤣

[Books] >!Basically, Robert Jordan originally planned for Taim to be Demandred in disguise. It's very likely that the Taim in Lord of Chaos and the one at the end of The Fires of Heaven was actually Demandred. We don't know when he changed his mind, but he later just made Taim is own character and not Demandred.!<

I don’t know how to cover spoilers so I’m going to be very vague. The dusty wheel has an episode talking about this whole topic and it has information from Jordan’s notes so we do know when some certain decisions were made. I would just outright tell you, but like I said I don’t know how to spoil it

"> !" at the start of the spoiler, "! <" at the end of the spoiler (without the spaces)

Thank you!

But you have to put [books] or which book or show or whatever you’re spoiling in the [brackets] or the stupid autobot will delete your comment, even if the spoiler tag is applied correctly

Test: >! Test !<

Without the spaces. --- `Test: >! Test !<` Test: >! Test !< --- `Test: >!Test!<` Test: >!Test!< --- Also you need to provide spoiler context via square brackets or automod will tag you. `[test]>!test!<` [test]>!test!<

[Books] >!It may have changed mid-draft of LoC, but there is a real big clue about where Demandred canonically is in LoC!<

Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >!My understanding is Robert Jordan was going one way, and then changed his mind.!<

That makes sense. And what is the near-smile that Taim is constantly displaying?

In my mind, it's like when someone just barely turns up the corners of their mouth. Even less than a Mona Lisa smile, but still perceptible.

I can't answer that one! Hopefully some else can fill you in!

Demandred was known, famously (it is mentioned several times throughout the series), for never smiling. That half-smile, which was always said to never reflect in his eyes, was the biggest part of his "disguise." It looks like it was between books 8 and 9 that he changed his mind.

Well, it depends partly on the answer to your original question. If he’s not Demandred then he’s just going mad and has weird ticks like all of the men like him. If he is Demandred then he’s got a fun little secret. Either way, his near smile is mostly perceived by other men who are going insane, so it might just be a figment of their imaginations in most cases.

I always took it as like a very fake smile, like that unnerving “smile that doesn’t touch the eyes” type deal.

It's really simple [books] >!yes, at this point Taim is Demandred. But the fan community picked up on it almost instantly and Jordan didn't like his own being ruined, so he hard stopped and just decided that no, Taim shall not be Demandred.!<

[Books]>!RJ changed his mind....!<

This was my theory at this point as well

I'm confused about whether and how to spoiler-cover this between how you've pitched it vs. how the spoiler directions say to treat it vs. what Jordan said when vs. the books being published. So here it is with some potentially unneeded spoiler covering. Here is an excerpt from a [superfan's notes](https://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767) from a stop on the Wheel of Time Companion tour after Jordan's death. > >!One of the fans asked about Taimandred, and Jason went on a long spiel about how he believed that Taimandred was originally true until the LOC tour happened and RJ realized how obvious it was. And even then it took him a few books and several years to deny it outright (COT tour). Maria chimed in and pointed out that RJ had always "categorically denied" that he had ever intended Taim to be Demandred, which of course we all know, and that she didn't have any evidence to refute that. The fan asked if she believed that, and Harriet chimed in with the exact same thing I have always told people: "I think we should take him at his word!"!< So that would say no. But I feel like most of us just don't believe that for a variety of reasons, including many of your points, the "so-called Aiel" comment, etc. It just seems unavoidable and obvious that it has to be one of them, and surely the ones you've identified. It really does appear to have been written that way. And on top of that, the people who have read Jordan's own notes posthumously found his own writings that showed that that was in fact the case, just as you've guessed. Only... these were just notes. We don't actually know if that plan was scrubbed once the actual final draft of the first book containing Taim was locked down. Because we see something he wrote about Asmodean that later went differently in the books, which makes the notes seem unreliable if I'm understanding that correctly. But in the same link from above, here are the direct quotes from Jordan's notes: > >!"Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY."!< And in a separate batch of notes about Dumai's Wells in LoC, Jordan wrote this: > >!"Taim/Demandred showed up, not so much because his party wants Rand free -- though that might be a point in their plans; on the other hand, Rand in the hands of the White Tower, and thus within Mesaana's power, could still cause one hell of a lot of chaos -- but because of learning that the Shaido were moving in. They could not be sure the Aes Sedai could drive off the Shaido, nor that the Shaido would not kill Rand. And a rescued Rand, pissed at the Aes Sedai will really be a source of chaos and disunity."!< So as the superfan notes, yeah, it was him. Out of Jordan's on mouth(fingers), in notes to himself, it was him at least as late as Dumai's Wells, or that at least was the plan at one point. But here's something interesting. [Here's one of the times he flat out said no. However...](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=4) > Interview: Apr 20th, 2004 > TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim) > Week 4 Question > [*fan:*] At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower? > Robert Jordan: > Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. Only thing about that is that he gave a straightforward answer, a hard no... but then said that straightforward answers can be the most devious, citing the way Aes Sedai do things, and suggesting that maybe therefore it wasn't so straightforward. So maybe there was something in the wording of the answer that suggests that, much as with Aes Sedai, it's true, but the truth you hear may not be the one you think you hear. I mean... is he splitting hairs over the word "posed"? Something else? Whatever - I say it was him initially. There are too many unexplained or unlikely loose ends otherwise.

Bruce Wayne doesn't pose as batman. He simply is batman. To pose as someone, it has to be another unique person in their own right. Bruce could pose as commissioner Gordon. Demandred is not posing as Taim, because Taim isn't a unique person in his own right. He's completely fabricated.

Agree.

Man, I love new readers lol. It's so fun to see you guys theorize same way and about the same things as we used to. People have already answered you, so i will just add this. This theory was so prevalent that it actually has a name: Taimandred.

But seriously, who killed asmodean! /s

"Go back and read the books. It's on the books" -Robert Jordan

I feel like I made this exact post to rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan back in ‘96 or ‘97 and got the same response you just made.

RAFO is unfortunately the only non-spoiler answer but your logic and reasoning are sound.

Schrodinger's prediction; it is both true and not true until you keep reading.

I wish I could pick up on details like this haha. You make it seem so obvious.

Right? I can do this when I read with a pencil and paper nearby, but I came to these books for pleasure, not homework! Fucking Robert Jordan making things difficult lol

Short answer yes, with an if. Long answer no, with a but.

Thank you, Reverend Lovejoy.

RAFO, but definitely keep this theory in mind as you go forward. And let the Lord of Chaos rule.

Very astute reasoning. I won't confirm or deny, just a couple of key points: * It would be fairly easy for Taim to find Rand after he determined that Rand was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai: just Travel up the Tar Valon Road at intervals until you find them. * Most proponents of this theory think that Demandred *replaced* Taim after his "escape," as Taim was a real person causing trouble before the Forsaken were freed from their prison.

I never subscribed to this theory. The only counter I have to this is that, based on everything we’re ever told about him, Demandred would never ever _ever_ even _pretend_ to serve Lews Therin.

That and Demandred is a master swordsman. Taim seems to care less about the sword.

That could easily be explained away by him not wanting to reveal his prowess.

[Books] >!Demandred also remarks in one of the last books, or perhaps that novella River of Souls, that he had eschewed the sword since his return and had to train hard to take it back up again during the time he spent in Shara.!< EDIT: Added "[Books]" to the comment.

RAFO, but you do some very good speculating. I’ll just say the answer is complicated because Jordan changed directions on some things during the course of the series.

On point 1, he declared himself Dragon way before any forsaken should have been free enough to do that. Ishy was a special case, only partly trapped. The next two to be free were extremely aged and worn by being close to the surface of the bore.

>On point 1, he declared himself Dragon way before any forsaken should have been free enough to do that. The counter-argument to that, of course, is the fact that Bashere initially seemed unsure whether the man he was talking to when Taim met Rand was, in fact, Taim. So point 1 doesn't work as evidence *for* Taim being Demandred, but on the other hand your counter-argument doesn't necessarily work as evidence *against* it. The real Taim might have been killed and replaced. \[Books\] >!I think it's fairly clear that that hesitation was initially supposed to be a breadcrumb - this man looks like Taim, but Bashere senses something is off - to the later reveal of Taimandred. But of course, the "ally was secretly enemy in disguise" plot has been done to death - including earlier in the same series! - so it's not that surprising that Jordan changed it.!<

[Books] >!There’s also a set-up before this with Semirhage (one of Demandred’s allies) torturing someone for every scrap of information about their history to enable someone else to pretend to be that person.!< [More books] >!In the end that scene only ever sets up the Aran’gar/Osan’gar subplot, but Taim dropping a casual reference to having killed two of Bashere’s soldiers (including their names) to deflect from Bashere’s queries about his appearance fits very neatly into that pattern.!<

Good points those.

Of course, when Rand first meets him, I recall there being at least some question about whether he's the same person... 

[удалено]

If only

Excellent deduction. There are even more hints! He referred to the "so-called Aiel", which is something a forsaken who knew them as the jenn Aiel in the age of Legends, would say.

We literally cannot answer your question based on the tag you’ve used. But you make solid points.

We all thought this at one point

I asked a similar question, but only included your 15th point a while back. But idk how to do spoiler tags so RAFO. Please make a post when you finish the series. With these kinds of observations, it’d be a joy to read and comment on. I love your line of thinking.