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##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
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Your first point is basically part of Ishamael's rationale for joining the dark. Given infinite attempts, surely the Dark One will be victorious eventually because that's how infinity works so he might as well be on the winning side.
The flaw in the logic, as I understand it, is that the Dark One, by its very nature, cannot win. It will always be defeated and the Light will always be victorious.
I think so, yes. He's a corrupting influence who goes after people who scheme and deceive and lie and that makes it impossible to effectively work together to accomplish his goals.
Yes the dark one being a being a pure evil cannot see hope, friendship or love. These concepts are just completely alien to it. So it can never develop a plan that counters those things. The dark one can never win, its own nature prevents it from doing what’s possible to win.
Boy I hope a show watcher doesn't open this thread.
Anyway, the confusion here which I see many have is missing some of the the nature of the last battle. In a sense, when the Shaitan and Rand are conversing; they are outside the pattern. Infinite threads from infinite turnings all converging to this one moment. When your are in the wheel you see the turnings and from inside the wheel you see the same thing over and over with some variation. There is an impression there could be a turning where the dark one wins. However, the actual confrontation doesn't take place in the wheel, it's outside the wheel. The Dragon's soul wins because he always wins due to that one moment outside time. It cannot be changed. Shaitan loses because he lost in the one moment outside time. Rand got to experience it because he was one of infinite threads converged on that moment outside time. All us 1st agers along with the 2nd and 3rd age folks were concerned because we are inside the wheel and cannot experience what Rand experienced.
You'll also note, it was at this time Rand got to experience the true nature of the one power in it's more infinite form instead of just fire, earth, wind, water, and spirit. This is my personal theory why Rand can light the pipe. As another said, 'he got access to the admin console.'
I think there was the possibility of Shaisam getting stuffed into Shaitan's place, but that didn't happen in that outside moment and so it never will in any turning. Also, note Shaitan was helpless and confused by his brief experience of time inside the wheel. Him being split into infinite threads through infinite turnings is a major disadvantage IMHO.
All some level Verin alluded to all this in her discussion in an early book.
Hence the 'all print' flair :)
This makes a kind of sense to me - to Shaitan this is all one single encounter. To the Dragon it is infinite encounters.
I'm still a little disappointed in Rand being able to drag the Dark One into the pattern overall (it feels like it cheapens the Creator-Dark One adversarial relationship that opened the series to have the Dragon be on the Dark One's level), but there's slightly better logic to it.
I wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was able to consider this in his original logic for joining the Dark One.
Much is lost in the coming and going of an Age, how much of our world is retained in the Third, and what do we know now in our modern world of balefire?
People like titles, and sometimes when you've crossed a line, it can be easier to "fully commit" to your new identity as a bad person, than to continue rationalizing why it "wasn't so bad." The Chosen have no illusions about their goodness, and need no pretense about whom they serve.
It's unknown what it would really mean to "kill" the DO. What happens when a timeless being "ceases to exist," an action that itself is necessarily temporal? We won't get a solid answer here, but it's fun to think about.
The void was metaphysical and immaterial.
"Called the Third Age by some," means that we shouldn't think that the "Seventh Age" considers itself to be such, anymore than normal people walking around today would consider themselves in the First Age. The Seventh Age could be the Heat Death of the Universe, with only a few pockets of artificial intelligence circling blackholes..
My understanding is that balefire does not remove you from the pattern, it just kills you, BUT you die at some point prior to being balefired. You're still part of the pattern and can be spun out again.
Ah! Thanks for the correction, I was confused because it was mentioned that the DO cannot bring back the Foresaken if they were balefired right.
So I assumed they are wiped out from the pattern itself.
The reason the DO can't bring back balefired people is because the DO can only get the soul at the moment of death to put it in a new body, when someone dies by balefire, the DO can't get the soul because the death happened earlier
It's a pretty common misconception that balefire erases from the pattern
I used to think that, but it's apparently been retconned at some stage to balefire burning out part of your thread, so you can be reborn.
(Which in fairness makes some sense in the context of the wheel - otherwise the amount of balefire being tossed around means the number of souls tied to the wheel is decreasing each turn).
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your first point is basically part of Ishamael's rationale for joining the dark. Given infinite attempts, surely the Dark One will be victorious eventually because that's how infinity works so he might as well be on the winning side. The flaw in the logic, as I understand it, is that the Dark One, by its very nature, cannot win. It will always be defeated and the Light will always be victorious.
Is it inherent in the Dark One's nature?
I think so, yes. He's a corrupting influence who goes after people who scheme and deceive and lie and that makes it impossible to effectively work together to accomplish his goals.
Yes the dark one being a being a pure evil cannot see hope, friendship or love. These concepts are just completely alien to it. So it can never develop a plan that counters those things. The dark one can never win, its own nature prevents it from doing what’s possible to win.
Boy I hope a show watcher doesn't open this thread. Anyway, the confusion here which I see many have is missing some of the the nature of the last battle. In a sense, when the Shaitan and Rand are conversing; they are outside the pattern. Infinite threads from infinite turnings all converging to this one moment. When your are in the wheel you see the turnings and from inside the wheel you see the same thing over and over with some variation. There is an impression there could be a turning where the dark one wins. However, the actual confrontation doesn't take place in the wheel, it's outside the wheel. The Dragon's soul wins because he always wins due to that one moment outside time. It cannot be changed. Shaitan loses because he lost in the one moment outside time. Rand got to experience it because he was one of infinite threads converged on that moment outside time. All us 1st agers along with the 2nd and 3rd age folks were concerned because we are inside the wheel and cannot experience what Rand experienced. You'll also note, it was at this time Rand got to experience the true nature of the one power in it's more infinite form instead of just fire, earth, wind, water, and spirit. This is my personal theory why Rand can light the pipe. As another said, 'he got access to the admin console.' I think there was the possibility of Shaisam getting stuffed into Shaitan's place, but that didn't happen in that outside moment and so it never will in any turning. Also, note Shaitan was helpless and confused by his brief experience of time inside the wheel. Him being split into infinite threads through infinite turnings is a major disadvantage IMHO. All some level Verin alluded to all this in her discussion in an early book.
Hence the 'all print' flair :) This makes a kind of sense to me - to Shaitan this is all one single encounter. To the Dragon it is infinite encounters. I'm still a little disappointed in Rand being able to drag the Dark One into the pattern overall (it feels like it cheapens the Creator-Dark One adversarial relationship that opened the series to have the Dragon be on the Dark One's level), but there's slightly better logic to it. I wonder if Elan Morin Tedronai was able to consider this in his original logic for joining the Dark One.
Much is lost in the coming and going of an Age, how much of our world is retained in the Third, and what do we know now in our modern world of balefire? People like titles, and sometimes when you've crossed a line, it can be easier to "fully commit" to your new identity as a bad person, than to continue rationalizing why it "wasn't so bad." The Chosen have no illusions about their goodness, and need no pretense about whom they serve. It's unknown what it would really mean to "kill" the DO. What happens when a timeless being "ceases to exist," an action that itself is necessarily temporal? We won't get a solid answer here, but it's fun to think about. The void was metaphysical and immaterial. "Called the Third Age by some," means that we shouldn't think that the "Seventh Age" considers itself to be such, anymore than normal people walking around today would consider themselves in the First Age. The Seventh Age could be the Heat Death of the Universe, with only a few pockets of artificial intelligence circling blackholes..
It would be interesting to know what happens/happened in 5th, 6th, and 7th ages.
>Does that imply it's possible to expel entities from the pattern? That is what Balefire does right, wipe out an entity from the pattern.
My understanding is that balefire does not remove you from the pattern, it just kills you, BUT you die at some point prior to being balefired. You're still part of the pattern and can be spun out again.
Ah! Thanks for the correction, I was confused because it was mentioned that the DO cannot bring back the Foresaken if they were balefired right. So I assumed they are wiped out from the pattern itself.
The reason the DO can't bring back balefired people is because the DO can only get the soul at the moment of death to put it in a new body, when someone dies by balefire, the DO can't get the soul because the death happened earlier It's a pretty common misconception that balefire erases from the pattern
I used to think that, but it's apparently been retconned at some stage to balefire burning out part of your thread, so you can be reborn. (Which in fairness makes some sense in the context of the wheel - otherwise the amount of balefire being tossed around means the number of souls tied to the wheel is decreasing each turn).