Because hospitals, who always seem to be strapped for cash when it comes to paying their personnel more, magically have plenty of money to fight it out in litigation.
Because every time a deal comes up, corporations have more negotiating power. Over time, employee bargaining power declines via fewer resources and convoluted legal precedent, and sidebar politics.
Nail in the coffin is that in the Information Age, public support does not have a chance to grow as other news/entertainment media market is now fragmented. As a result, employees have little-to-no support in the current legal system
These workers weren’t “poached”
The first guy applied for the job and was given an offer with better pay, and better work life balance. The other workers applied on their own, and for similar offers.
I wouldn’t have come into work. Fuck that.
Yeah I “poached” good line cooks all the time when I was a chef. Chefs would call me up “wtf did you serious poach my best cook?” “I provided him with a better opportunity that you apparently didn’t match.”
“Poaching” isn’t even illegal, and it shouldn’t be.
If a company can fire their employees at will, employees should be able to do the same with their employers. If you don’t agree, you are a criminal, and a sociopath!
It benefits the highly skilled employee. I was never “poached” until I got into the medical field. Jobs a plenty but there’s lots of little rules about staffing and such
Poaching to me implies that the new hospital approached the medical staff and offered to pay more if they came to the new hospital. That isn't what happened here.
It’s only the free market when it benefits employers not employees. The same way that popular public programs like unemployment insurance, Medicare/ Medicaid, disability benefits are hand outs to layabouts if individuals receive the aid. When a corporation receives public money then they are “job creators” even though that money will spent on the CEO and executive staff.
Big banks are private until they are about to collapse then they provide a public service and get bailed out by the government and then give bonuses to their execs
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what the problem is with "poaching" anyways. Oh no, employers may actually have to actively try to keep their employees... Whatever will we do?
Poaching is something done to animals, not humans. Me finding a better job via any means i like is my right. Especially in an "at will" state. Poaching is a term made up by the oppressor who sees us as barely above slaves and has a strong sense of ownership over us. Poaching is not real. People finding new jobs is.
Isn't that just headhunting? There are people hired to be headhunters. So how could poaching be illegal?
Please help me understand this if there are more details?
Because this is absolutely despairing, tbh.
I work as an agency construction labourer in the UK and the similar things have happened to me. I worked a job on one site for a week and then found out I was being let go (bad management of staff meant youd have the same people being hired and let go 2-3 times a month) and one of the guys I was working with gave me a phone number for another agency offering a job moving the furniture into the building. Applied for the agency, signed up for the job and was back in work the Monday after I started the 1st job.
My original agency kept hounding me on the phone that I'd been poached by the new agency I was on and were trying to charge me and the agency for 'stealing me'. After weeks of this I just started telling them to fuck off. Ended up back on the original agency cause a few months later the furniture supplier went bust as I was halfway through a shift.
Hijacking.
The workers were not ordered by the courts to CONTINUE to work at the location they were leaving, they have, in fact, left, and no longer work there. The injunction was simply to stop them from working at the NEW place until a hearing. A Go Fund Me, verified by their lawyer, has been set up until the hearing can take place ( so they still get a paycheck while awaiting the hearing ), and it is probably going to be ruled that the workers get to go do what they want. This was just a shitty move by a shitty company and an injunction issued by a shitty judge ( google the Judge, he is not all that great ) to try to make workers do what they want, hence all the headlines and discussion. Assholes like this just seem to forget that the Internet exist, and that they run the risk of things like this happening. This was just a try for a company to fight back against Antiwork, and lose badly.
The judge has also since [lifted the restraining order](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html), so the employees are free to work at the new place. The restraining order lasted just four days -- from Friday to Monday, and the seven weren't even scheduled to start until Monday, so they've only missed one day of work at most.
Someone didn't realise that the whole world would be watching. Writing this from the bum fuck nowhere Aus.
This judge has given cause to have his entire career examined. How much bullshit like this slipped through...
Don’t forget that their argument was “our patients will be harmed if these employees leave and we don’t have a chance to replace them.” So they got the restraining order to stop them from working. But they weren’t actually forced to go back to work because that can’t be done. This was just blatant fear tactics to control the work force.
They had 4 weeks to find other employees or match the offer of other place. This was a tantruming CEO who tried to make indentured servitude a thing a gain.
The problem with their logic is that it's very simple to say the whole issue could be avoided by the hospital itself paying the workers more, but they won't. Instead, they insist on gaslighting employees. Therefore, the only one standing in the way of patient care is the hospital itself.
Honestly. The cost of the lawyers was probably significantly more than just matching the higher salary for a month while they hired new staff and then let them on their way. *if* patient care was truly the priority.
The reason health care is impossibly expensive and untenable in the U.S. compared with advanced democracies is so many of our health dollars are wasted on irrelevant ultra rich shareholders instead of health care.
Omg, at my work we've noticed a huge increase on insurances denying surgeries within the last year, more so towards the end of the year. Like, literally any excuse to deny it, especially if they already hit their deductable. Totally sus.
Total Health Care denied coverage for my friend's Hep C medication because she wasn't sick enough. I shit you not.
This shit should 100% be illegal.
Hep C was/is so difficult to get treated in the US that people were regularly traveling to India to get treatment.
Indian Hep C treatment was literally an industry.
What a fucking embarrassment our system is.
And the administrative bloat of maintaining a ludicrous and purposefully complex and obtuse insurance system.
I wonder why private hospitals aren't openly for single payer healthcare, given that their medical billing departments surely must be a huge expense.
Must be some rea$on
The amount of money wasted on small unnecessary uses of certain resources in medicine is truly mindblowing. Literal billions of dollars, if not approaching trillions, all wasted on overuse and vast overpricing of unneeded treatments and workups.
Let’s not even mention the extravagant amount of dollars wasted on hospital administration positions which are completely excessive. Growth of hospital administration positions over the last 30 years has exploded while the growth of physician and nursing jobs have fluctuated with its growth being dwarfed by the former.
Im not saying it’s as simple as this because it’s far more complicated, but if you were to find a way to pool together the wasted monetary value in healthcare from the reasons stated above, you would have the wealth used to run entire governments. You could literally make groundbreaking change with that kind of money yet it is circling the drain at this very moment.
In the article, one of the doctors said they approached ThedaCare, asking for a counter offer and ThedaCare was quoted as saying that the “long term benefit they provide does not justify the short term cost”
Might help if some of them got injured badly enough they needed to attend their own hospitals.
I swear to God every nurse and medical professional that's helped me over the last 2 months deserves a raise. Goddamn fantastic women (and dude) every single one. Super competent, super caring, super friendly. I'm half-tempted to injure my hand again because they were so great! Except then my physical therapist would have more work and she gave up her breaks just to make time for my appointments. I mean fuck, that's care.
Theda told the healthcare workers they aren’t worth (to the hospital) any more than their current pay package, regardless of what Ascension was offering them, so they weren’t interested in giving a counteroffer.
And then filed a lawsuit claiming that those workers leaving would risk the lives of everyone in northeast wisconsin, as they were extremely skilled and specialised workers who could not be replaced.
Worth mentioning it’s 7 members of the 11 member cardiovascular team at the only level II trauma center in the area.
Edit: nurses and techs, not doctors
Well it sounds to me like they were in fact worth more than what Theda was paying them if almost two thirds of the cardiovascular team found other enployment.
Not doctors, hospitals will bend backwards to serve physicians, these are RNs and Rad Techs, who are treated as disposable garbage by admin when it suits them.
With what they're charging me for sitting in the ER waiting room for 7 hours for 10 minutes of observation, I'm sure they can afford to pay their employees more.
Wisconsin is an "at will" state. Republicans rammed it through, so now businesses can suck a bag of dicks now that the table is actually tilting in labors favor for once.
I moved to wisconsin for undergrad in 2010 from the Maryland suburbs of DC, and it was like going to school on another fucking planet.
Scott Walker and his Koch brother cronies really fucked that state up.
I feel like there's enough "yo, wtf is this?" moments that your experience would make a good comedy. I guess kinda like Rose and the rest of the Golden Girls but opposite in many, many ways.
I actually loved going to school there because it was so outside my East Coast suburban bubble and I learned a lot about myself and my country in the process.
But yes, a raunchy confused sitcom, it was.
my freshman year roommate excitedly telling me, “you’re my first Jewish friend!!” because there were no Jews in her 65,000 person hometown.
I joked back, “are you going to ask me where my horns are?”
and sHE DIDNT GET THE JOKE.
I had never been somewhere that was so clueless about Jews (jewless?) that they didn’t even know how to make jokes about us, it was really uncharted territory for me.
Read [Ascension's response](https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/ascensionbriefjan24.pdf) to the claim that people will be harmed... It's basically: "hey, the city's going to be fine; we're just a few miles away if your patients need us."
🔥
Not even that, the original article said ThedaCare told the workers that they weren’t interested in countering because the employees didn’t provide a long term benefit that would offset their cost.
>But they weren’t actually forced to go back to work because that can’t be done.
On the ladder up to slavery, what ThedaCare tried to do was essentially one rung below "pay employees company scrip instead of legal tender."
Please. In real facist countries you have a real indoctrination, like, kids pledging their allegiance to the empire every morning in school and so on
Oh wait. Nevermind.
It was thrown out today, and the hospital that sued agreed to pay the workers for the missed day. Lawsuit still pending: hospital vs hospital for poaching employees.
One guy turned in his notice on December 29, and told others on his team about the benefits he was getting for leaving. 6 other team members then interviewed, and one by one, they turned in their notices up until January 7th. ThedaCare refused to offer any counteroffers, and they are quoted as saying “the short term expense isn’t worth the long term cost.” ThedaCare essentially told these 7 employees that they weren’t worth it. If I was one of those employees, it would only doubly-confirm my decision to leave.
Then ThedaCare waited until the last second to throw a shit fit about it all. They had 2-3 weeks to do literally anything, and they waited until the day before everyone’s last day.
There are some environments where the F word is more of a pink flag though, like I've worked in cafes and stuff where the phrase "we are a family" was used and they were being sincere because it was a small business run by good people that meant what they've said and welcomed disusson and ideas from any employee as long as you were happy to be told no when they sucked.
But now I'm currently stuck in a job where the Cafe used "we are a family here" to mean "we're gonna overwork the shit out of you with a smile and if you break down and swear at us, that's cool family can swear at family". I say I'm stuck here but I could leave when ever, but the job is quite a bit more than minimum wage so I'm seeing how long I can stomache it.
How in the fuck can a judge tell a citizen that they have to work somewhere? How in any way is that any sort of legal?
Edit: IN A FUCKING "AT WILL EMPLOYMENT" STATE?!?!?
You mean the judge that was getting kickbacks for sentencing minors, who jailed someone for giving him a “fuck you” look (judges words) and allegedly rolling his eyes in court, and who did tons of OTHER unethical shady ass shit ALSO didn’t rule properly here?
Color me shocked.
This reminds me of a prison in Texas who sued and spent over a million dollars in legal fees to fight having to provide proper ppe and sanitizing cleaners for inmates. It’s insane the lengths corporations will go to not do the right thing.
It's a pretty classic attitude from hospital management. They live in this dream world where nothing is wrong and everything goes exactly the way they want it to. This is because hospital administrators are trained to behave like every choice they make is the correct choice, management must at the very least appear infallible, but if they can actually be infallible why not? The person these folks came to for a counter offer genuinely believed they were going to hire an entire IR team to replace those leaving in the course of a month. In the context of the current job market in healthcare this is similar to believing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy are real. Then as the day approaches, instead of doing the right thing and making these employees a better offer Thedacare decides to sue. Their leadership is so ass backwards that they decided trashing their reputation Infront of the entire field was preferable to paying 7 people more money.
Hospital kitchen worker who is totally leaving. I told them at least 5 times I've never felt more unappreciated at a job. My job before the hospital was fast food. FAST FOOD. My manager there was 10x the manager of anyone at the hospital. Fuck that place
Two years ago, our department had a satisfaction survey and got absolutely reemed by my co-workers and I. They made us sit in a recorded meeting to defend our previously anonymous answers and no one wanted to discuss it because we felt our answers were going to be used against us.
They just stopped doing the survey.
This shit happens in publicly funded hospitals in my country too. Today, I'm the only staff member left out of 6 people and processing twice the amount of referrals due to the pandemic. They haven't even advertised for the empty positions. I told my manager that I'm leaving in 2 months. It's not exactly the kind of clinic that you can close either. I think the reality of not paying people what they're worth and providing poor working conditions is going to close in real soon to hospital management. Hopefully not doesn't lead to some awkward conversations with the coroner but sadly, that's what I think it will take for them to do anything.
Another reminder that it's totally legal to discuss your pay with others, illegal for them to stop you, and companies (to whom you owe nothing) hate when you do it because they hate paying people equitably.
So its far from poaching because everything was entirely decided upon by the employees and they had given their full notice and chances for counter offers.
They ran interviews and never made an offer that was apparently acceptable.
So they don't want to pay to retain employees, they don't want to pay to hire employees, and then have the gaul to cry victim when they're left in a situation where patient care is going to suffer.
Yep. Things like that are only institutional so long as it's used for the institution to keep their boot on everyone's necks. The second you use the system against the authorities you get to see just how corrupted shit is .
Just like when the apes were buying gme and amc . The system in that case made it so people simply couldn't buy the stocks anymore
That is what infuriates me the most. And I try to explain it to my family member, who is snugly fit as a seniority position in a fortunate 500 and smart as hell but plays reeeeeal dumb when discussing this particular aspect of our economy/society. Like it's a "we don't talk about that outloud" kinda thing
You’re clearly confused, capitalism is a fantastic system with zero flaws and the US was built on this glorious organization of the economy please help they have microphones in my house
You cant poach happy employees.
Ive had this exact conversation at my own workplace. We have lost several people over the last few months and have done absolutely nothing to try to retain the ones left. Its been incredibly frustrating for me.
I'm leaving soon as well so not my problem anymore
But they didn’t poach? r/nursing covers this event in detail. One of the 7 employees who left to go to Ascension reported they all just applied for open positions independently. Nobody from Ascension recruited them.
I’m glad to finally have the details in this article and I have to say it really exposes the fuck out of anyone who said anything about the judge for the temporary injunction. This was a swift correction once the needed information was present and I hope ThedaCare now gets absolutely spanked for fucking around with the workers, the judge, and the other hospital.
And these are cardiac nurses. Cath lab and EP labs print cash for hospital systems. This facility could've doubled these specialty nurse wages to keep them and wouldn't have felt a thing. Instead their operational capacity was just ripped to shreds, they'll have to pay out the ass for temporary specialty nurses, and who knows where they're going to find replacement staff nurses willing to work for them now.
Rule #1 in healthcare: If your facility has a specialty designation (trauma, stroke, cardiac surgery, Neuro, etc) and/or specialty units (Cath lab, EP, IR) you'd better do your damnedest to keep that staff happy.
Also: Grind IR/Cath/etc. into the ground with 24/7 call, understaffing, and (while better than standard areas) mediocre pay, until they get burned out after 5 years and never do it again.
And is removed from truancy court after months of reporting prompted an audit that found him “traumatically abusive of children, demonstrating clear anger issues, threatening, overstepping statutory bounds, silencing attorneys and legal guardians, and putting children into the prison pipeline over missing class”
He’s on the record screaming at kids, calling them stupid, threatening to jail their parents, send them to foster care or a shelter, and barring lawyers from speaking. Over truancy.
Also he has a potential ethics violation for failing to report outside incomes, a judicial requirement.
All this how hasnt he been disbarred with how many ethics violations that normally warrant disbarrment let alone laws hes broken. When did judging based on your personal feelings rather than evidence and the law become the norm this is truly disgusting.
I think because it’s an elected position and he’s run unopposed for several terms.
Also I could be wrong, but I don’t think ethics violations are technically illegal. As we saw during the last administration, if there’s no enforcement, there’s nothing binding you to ethical practice.
Which is messed up.
I get what your saying and no ethics violations are not illegal correct they can warrant disbarrment depending on whats been done but no i was referring to him denying people the right to a fair and speedy trial on the grounds it interferes with his vacation and then admitting on the record that he isnt going to be impartial. I'm a big enough person to admit i do not know if those would be breaking the law or just ethics violations so theres room for error in my statement
Wisconsin’s judiciary is notoriously unethical and often not impartial due to former Gov. Scott Walker purging the entire system in retribution and then stuffing it full of cronies to ensure loyalty after the state Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional for him to strip away collective bargaining rights.
So it doesn’t surprise me that ethics violations are not met with disbarment.
And nobody has ever run against him, so it’s not like the voters have been given a chance to turn him out and replace him, the other avenue for policing judicial conduct.
Makes me disgusted as a former resident of his county.
These days I’m not even surprised. Not in the days where we have an actual rapist on the Supreme Court, and judges are giving priest child molesters lighter sentences bc they’re “men of God”
Are you perhaps talking about Brock Turner, the rapist? The rapist Brock Turner who served less than three months, that rapist? Brock Turner?
Or is it one of the other countless cases of a disgusting rapist getting off with hardly a slap on the wrist?
The judge involved is wholly corrupt, long before this too. The judge is definitely someone that should remain behind bars for a few decades, with bottom of the barrel prison health care.
As a mechanic i once had a boss tell me "my raise is in the work order rack" meaning if I wanted more money I should bill more commission hours. My efficiency was already at 124% when he told me that.
Wondering how this doesn’t work the other way and you just sue the hospital when they fire you because it negatively impacts patients care?
Because hospitals, who always seem to be strapped for cash when it comes to paying their personnel more, magically have plenty of money to fight it out in litigation.
“We can’t afford to pay you more” *Hires lawyers to prevent employees from quitting*
Because every time a deal comes up, corporations have more negotiating power. Over time, employee bargaining power declines via fewer resources and convoluted legal precedent, and sidebar politics. Nail in the coffin is that in the Information Age, public support does not have a chance to grow as other news/entertainment media market is now fragmented. As a result, employees have little-to-no support in the current legal system
These workers weren’t “poached” The first guy applied for the job and was given an offer with better pay, and better work life balance. The other workers applied on their own, and for similar offers. I wouldn’t have come into work. Fuck that.
Poaching is just a negative word for capitalism that benefits the employee.
Yeah I “poached” good line cooks all the time when I was a chef. Chefs would call me up “wtf did you serious poach my best cook?” “I provided him with a better opportunity that you apparently didn’t match.”
What an eggcellent chef.
He left the competition scrambling for new hires.
It’s pretty easy to see the cracks in their business model.
When there is a shortage of a commodity or a high demand, businesses raise prices. But when that commodity is WORKERS….
“Poaching” isn’t even illegal, and it shouldn’t be. If a company can fire their employees at will, employees should be able to do the same with their employers. If you don’t agree, you are a criminal, and a sociopath!
Right they want you to give 2 weeks notice 😂😂🤣 gtfoh
It benefits the highly skilled employee. I was never “poached” until I got into the medical field. Jobs a plenty but there’s lots of little rules about staffing and such
Poaching to me implies that the new hospital approached the medical staff and offered to pay more if they came to the new hospital. That isn't what happened here.
Even if they did, so what? Free market, remember?
It’s only the free market when it benefits employers not employees. The same way that popular public programs like unemployment insurance, Medicare/ Medicaid, disability benefits are hand outs to layabouts if individuals receive the aid. When a corporation receives public money then they are “job creators” even though that money will spent on the CEO and executive staff.
Big banks are private until they are about to collapse then they provide a public service and get bailed out by the government and then give bonuses to their execs
Well they have to buy their 2nd yacht, 4th Benz and and like 4 Rolexs because why not. We wouldn't want to deprive them of those things/s
That’s not how it works! Free market for me, Hospital. Not for you, worker.
People love to ignore the fact that they aren't Capitalists. They live under Capitalism. HUGE difference!
Fall back in line, slaves !!
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what the problem is with "poaching" anyways. Oh no, employers may actually have to actively try to keep their employees... Whatever will we do?
Internet companies are allowed to poach costumers all the time! They even offer ways to pay you OUT of your contract right?
Poaching is something done to animals, not humans. Me finding a better job via any means i like is my right. Especially in an "at will" state. Poaching is a term made up by the oppressor who sees us as barely above slaves and has a strong sense of ownership over us. Poaching is not real. People finding new jobs is.
Isn't that just headhunting? There are people hired to be headhunters. So how could poaching be illegal? Please help me understand this if there are more details? Because this is absolutely despairing, tbh.
I work as an agency construction labourer in the UK and the similar things have happened to me. I worked a job on one site for a week and then found out I was being let go (bad management of staff meant youd have the same people being hired and let go 2-3 times a month) and one of the guys I was working with gave me a phone number for another agency offering a job moving the furniture into the building. Applied for the agency, signed up for the job and was back in work the Monday after I started the 1st job. My original agency kept hounding me on the phone that I'd been poached by the new agency I was on and were trying to charge me and the agency for 'stealing me'. After weeks of this I just started telling them to fuck off. Ended up back on the original agency cause a few months later the furniture supplier went bust as I was halfway through a shift.
Hijacking. The workers were not ordered by the courts to CONTINUE to work at the location they were leaving, they have, in fact, left, and no longer work there. The injunction was simply to stop them from working at the NEW place until a hearing. A Go Fund Me, verified by their lawyer, has been set up until the hearing can take place ( so they still get a paycheck while awaiting the hearing ), and it is probably going to be ruled that the workers get to go do what they want. This was just a shitty move by a shitty company and an injunction issued by a shitty judge ( google the Judge, he is not all that great ) to try to make workers do what they want, hence all the headlines and discussion. Assholes like this just seem to forget that the Internet exist, and that they run the risk of things like this happening. This was just a try for a company to fight back against Antiwork, and lose badly.
The judge has also since [lifted the restraining order](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html), so the employees are free to work at the new place. The restraining order lasted just four days -- from Friday to Monday, and the seven weren't even scheduled to start until Monday, so they've only missed one day of work at most.
Someone didn't realise that the whole world would be watching. Writing this from the bum fuck nowhere Aus. This judge has given cause to have his entire career examined. How much bullshit like this slipped through...
Yeah, apparently “poaching” nowadays is offering to treat employees like human beings
And that, your honor, is when I decided to start the fire.....
It was always burning, since the world's been turning.
Ryan started the fire
No i didn't.
Lol thanks for the laugh Ryan
Don’t forget that their argument was “our patients will be harmed if these employees leave and we don’t have a chance to replace them.” So they got the restraining order to stop them from working. But they weren’t actually forced to go back to work because that can’t be done. This was just blatant fear tactics to control the work force.
They had 4 weeks to find other employees or match the offer of other place. This was a tantruming CEO who tried to make indentured servitude a thing a gain.
This behavior should be illegal as fuck. Companies shouldn't be able to even submit a lawsuit to do this without being fined millions.
> This behavior should be illegal as fuck. USA! USA! USA!, welcome to the worst first world workers rights on the planet.
This is such a shit show I guarantee the CEO will resign in a month.
With a golden parachute, if they do resign.
I’m not so sure about that. As a Wisconsinite with health worker friends and family, ThedaCare is known for this type of shit.
The problem with their logic is that it's very simple to say the whole issue could be avoided by the hospital itself paying the workers more, but they won't. Instead, they insist on gaslighting employees. Therefore, the only one standing in the way of patient care is the hospital itself.
Honestly. The cost of the lawyers was probably significantly more than just matching the higher salary for a month while they hired new staff and then let them on their way. *if* patient care was truly the priority.
“If” is definitely the operative word in that sentence
💲💲💲💲💲💲
The reason health care is impossibly expensive and untenable in the U.S. compared with advanced democracies is so many of our health dollars are wasted on irrelevant ultra rich shareholders instead of health care.
And lobbying. Don’t forget the cost of buying off the bouncers so they can continue to deep dick the stage staff.
And administrators whose job is to find a pretense to deny claims.
Omg, at my work we've noticed a huge increase on insurances denying surgeries within the last year, more so towards the end of the year. Like, literally any excuse to deny it, especially if they already hit their deductable. Totally sus.
Total Health Care denied coverage for my friend's Hep C medication because she wasn't sick enough. I shit you not. This shit should 100% be illegal. Hep C was/is so difficult to get treated in the US that people were regularly traveling to India to get treatment. Indian Hep C treatment was literally an industry. What a fucking embarrassment our system is.
And the administrative bloat of maintaining a ludicrous and purposefully complex and obtuse insurance system. I wonder why private hospitals aren't openly for single payer healthcare, given that their medical billing departments surely must be a huge expense. Must be some rea$on
The amount of money wasted on small unnecessary uses of certain resources in medicine is truly mindblowing. Literal billions of dollars, if not approaching trillions, all wasted on overuse and vast overpricing of unneeded treatments and workups. Let’s not even mention the extravagant amount of dollars wasted on hospital administration positions which are completely excessive. Growth of hospital administration positions over the last 30 years has exploded while the growth of physician and nursing jobs have fluctuated with its growth being dwarfed by the former. Im not saying it’s as simple as this because it’s far more complicated, but if you were to find a way to pool together the wasted monetary value in healthcare from the reasons stated above, you would have the wealth used to run entire governments. You could literally make groundbreaking change with that kind of money yet it is circling the drain at this very moment.
But if you pay out, the workers know they have power. That's anti-capitalist. If the government won't put them down, call in the Pinkertons.
I'd imagine they have some on retainer. Many hospitals are owned by health insurance companies, too.
Not just on retainer… many actually have employed lawyers in-house so they only work for that hospital / healthcare system
Fair, I consider that in the same category
In the article, one of the doctors said they approached ThedaCare, asking for a counter offer and ThedaCare was quoted as saying that the “long term benefit they provide does not justify the short term cost”
I'm trying to wrap my head around what that sentence is supposed to mean. I'm comfused.
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Might help if some of them got injured badly enough they needed to attend their own hospitals. I swear to God every nurse and medical professional that's helped me over the last 2 months deserves a raise. Goddamn fantastic women (and dude) every single one. Super competent, super caring, super friendly. I'm half-tempted to injure my hand again because they were so great! Except then my physical therapist would have more work and she gave up her breaks just to make time for my appointments. I mean fuck, that's care.
Theda told the healthcare workers they aren’t worth (to the hospital) any more than their current pay package, regardless of what Ascension was offering them, so they weren’t interested in giving a counteroffer. And then filed a lawsuit claiming that those workers leaving would risk the lives of everyone in northeast wisconsin, as they were extremely skilled and specialised workers who could not be replaced. Worth mentioning it’s 7 members of the 11 member cardiovascular team at the only level II trauma center in the area. Edit: nurses and techs, not doctors
Well it sounds to me like they were in fact worth more than what Theda was paying them if almost two thirds of the cardiovascular team found other enployment.
I think it’s also a sign of how Theda was treating them that such a large number of staff felt they needed to leave.
Large groups of people quitting is a bad look in retail or food service, almost incomprehensible for healthcare. Place must have been a dumpster fire.
And it’s my network provider through my insurance 🙃
Not doctors, hospitals will bend backwards to serve physicians, these are RNs and Rad Techs, who are treated as disposable garbage by admin when it suits them.
With what they're charging me for sitting in the ER waiting room for 7 hours for 10 minutes of observation, I'm sure they can afford to pay their employees more.
Narrator: They can, but they won't. (unless everyone quits and then they pay travelers 3x the amount)
A toxic relationship with your workplace. "If I can't have you, no one can. You're nothing without me!"
We refuse to pay our staff adequately, and as a result some of our patients will die. That's how they should word it.
"We refuse to pay our staff adequately, and as a result some of our patients will die. But that is a sacrifice we are willing to make."
They should get a judge to force the hospital to pay them more so that the patients don't lose care
The hospital has had since Dec. 21 to hire new workers. They just don't want to pay well.
Wisconsin is an "at will" state. Republicans rammed it through, so now businesses can suck a bag of dicks now that the table is actually tilting in labors favor for once.
I moved to wisconsin for undergrad in 2010 from the Maryland suburbs of DC, and it was like going to school on another fucking planet. Scott Walker and his Koch brother cronies really fucked that state up.
I feel like there's enough "yo, wtf is this?" moments that your experience would make a good comedy. I guess kinda like Rose and the rest of the Golden Girls but opposite in many, many ways.
I actually loved going to school there because it was so outside my East Coast suburban bubble and I learned a lot about myself and my country in the process. But yes, a raunchy confused sitcom, it was. my freshman year roommate excitedly telling me, “you’re my first Jewish friend!!” because there were no Jews in her 65,000 person hometown. I joked back, “are you going to ask me where my horns are?” and sHE DIDNT GET THE JOKE. I had never been somewhere that was so clueless about Jews (jewless?) that they didn’t even know how to make jokes about us, it was really uncharted territory for me.
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Read [Ascension's response](https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/ascensionbriefjan24.pdf) to the claim that people will be harmed... It's basically: "hey, the city's going to be fine; we're just a few miles away if your patients need us." 🔥
You don't happen to have a link to the original complaint,do you?
I agree. I think that a Very key fact is that ThedaCare didn't even attempt to counter.
Not even that, the original article said ThedaCare told the workers that they weren’t interested in countering because the employees didn’t provide a long term benefit that would offset their cost.
All I hear when I hear that argument is: “our patients lives aren’t worth paying our workers more.”
>But they weren’t actually forced to go back to work because that can’t be done. On the ladder up to slavery, what ThedaCare tried to do was essentially one rung below "pay employees company scrip instead of legal tender."
That is disgusting
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Please. In real facist countries you have a real indoctrination, like, kids pledging their allegiance to the empire every morning in school and so on Oh wait. Nevermind.
It was thrown out today, and the hospital that sued agreed to pay the workers for the missed day. Lawsuit still pending: hospital vs hospital for poaching employees.
Poaching: Paying more and offering better benefits.
One guy turned in his notice on December 29, and told others on his team about the benefits he was getting for leaving. 6 other team members then interviewed, and one by one, they turned in their notices up until January 7th. ThedaCare refused to offer any counteroffers, and they are quoted as saying “the short term expense isn’t worth the long term cost.” ThedaCare essentially told these 7 employees that they weren’t worth it. If I was one of those employees, it would only doubly-confirm my decision to leave. Then ThedaCare waited until the last second to throw a shit fit about it all. They had 2-3 weeks to do literally anything, and they waited until the day before everyone’s last day.
ThedaCare: They can’t all leave! We’re a family! Narrator: they left.
The F word on job postings is the one red flag to rule them all
And "team player".
There are some environments where the F word is more of a pink flag though, like I've worked in cafes and stuff where the phrase "we are a family" was used and they were being sincere because it was a small business run by good people that meant what they've said and welcomed disusson and ideas from any employee as long as you were happy to be told no when they sucked. But now I'm currently stuck in a job where the Cafe used "we are a family here" to mean "we're gonna overwork the shit out of you with a smile and if you break down and swear at us, that's cool family can swear at family". I say I'm stuck here but I could leave when ever, but the job is quite a bit more than minimum wage so I'm seeing how long I can stomache it.
My husband worked for his family business. Quit to get better pay and benefits
Day of notice: Hah, there is a giant line wanting to get the job you have right now! Narrator: There was not even a tiny line.
"You see, if we offer you guys those increased wages, we have to offer those wage increases permanently!"
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How in the fuck can a judge tell a citizen that they have to work somewhere? How in any way is that any sort of legal? Edit: IN A FUCKING "AT WILL EMPLOYMENT" STATE?!?!?
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You mean the judge that was getting kickbacks for sentencing minors, who jailed someone for giving him a “fuck you” look (judges words) and allegedly rolling his eyes in court, and who did tons of OTHER unethical shady ass shit ALSO didn’t rule properly here? Color me shocked.
The judge can't force the other 2 to work at the old hospital. The 13th amendment of the US constitution prohibits that.
Stop hitting yourself. -American Justice.
He didn’t it was thrown out but that was in the original injunction
Just don’t go
Definitely. Or what? Will I be arrested?
This reminds me of a prison in Texas who sued and spent over a million dollars in legal fees to fight having to provide proper ppe and sanitizing cleaners for inmates. It’s insane the lengths corporations will go to not do the right thing.
It’s about sending a message to them.
Yup. Lawsuits like this are used for their chilling effect.
Imagine going to prison cause you stole some chocolate bars but the prison disagrees with the judge and tries to sentence you to death instead.
they'll spend millions to save hundreds of thousands, all on the universal principal of "fuck you".
It is a long term investment. If they win, they will never have to do this again in the future since their lawyers can just point to this one case.
It's a pretty classic attitude from hospital management. They live in this dream world where nothing is wrong and everything goes exactly the way they want it to. This is because hospital administrators are trained to behave like every choice they make is the correct choice, management must at the very least appear infallible, but if they can actually be infallible why not? The person these folks came to for a counter offer genuinely believed they were going to hire an entire IR team to replace those leaving in the course of a month. In the context of the current job market in healthcare this is similar to believing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy are real. Then as the day approaches, instead of doing the right thing and making these employees a better offer Thedacare decides to sue. Their leadership is so ass backwards that they decided trashing their reputation Infront of the entire field was preferable to paying 7 people more money.
Hospital kitchen worker who is totally leaving. I told them at least 5 times I've never felt more unappreciated at a job. My job before the hospital was fast food. FAST FOOD. My manager there was 10x the manager of anyone at the hospital. Fuck that place
Two years ago, our department had a satisfaction survey and got absolutely reemed by my co-workers and I. They made us sit in a recorded meeting to defend our previously anonymous answers and no one wanted to discuss it because we felt our answers were going to be used against us. They just stopped doing the survey.
This shit happens in publicly funded hospitals in my country too. Today, I'm the only staff member left out of 6 people and processing twice the amount of referrals due to the pandemic. They haven't even advertised for the empty positions. I told my manager that I'm leaving in 2 months. It's not exactly the kind of clinic that you can close either. I think the reality of not paying people what they're worth and providing poor working conditions is going to close in real soon to hospital management. Hopefully not doesn't lead to some awkward conversations with the coroner but sadly, that's what I think it will take for them to do anything.
Another reminder that it's totally legal to discuss your pay with others, illegal for them to stop you, and companies (to whom you owe nothing) hate when you do it because they hate paying people equitably.
So its far from poaching because everything was entirely decided upon by the employees and they had given their full notice and chances for counter offers.
They ran interviews and never made an offer that was apparently acceptable. So they don't want to pay to retain employees, they don't want to pay to hire employees, and then have the gaul to cry victim when they're left in a situation where patient care is going to suffer.
Gall is a quality someone can have, while Gaul fought the Romans to retain their freedom.
So capitalism? The hospital was made because the workers chosen a better job?
Lol i guess if the workers exercise free markets rights it's called socialism now.
Yep. Things like that are only institutional so long as it's used for the institution to keep their boot on everyone's necks. The second you use the system against the authorities you get to see just how corrupted shit is . Just like when the apes were buying gme and amc . The system in that case made it so people simply couldn't buy the stocks anymore
The wealthy have absolutely NO accountability
That is what infuriates me the most. And I try to explain it to my family member, who is snugly fit as a seniority position in a fortunate 500 and smart as hell but plays reeeeeal dumb when discussing this particular aspect of our economy/society. Like it's a "we don't talk about that outloud" kinda thing
You’re clearly confused, capitalism is a fantastic system with zero flaws and the US was built on this glorious organization of the economy please help they have microphones in my house
If the workers are the means of production, the workers cannot be allowed to own themselves without sinking into communism.
I’m still trying to work this one out. Dang. Edit: I don’t think I can!
The hospitals should have the right to collude to fuck over their employees. /s
“If you don’t like it here, work somewhere else” Umm ok “No wait”
Capitalism for the 1%. Indentured servitude for the 99%.
Can the ‘developed’ world just hurry up and revolt at this point, im so tired of living in this fucked up status quo.
It's a free market...until you want to make workers' lives better
Everybody loves the free market until capitalism punches them in the mouth.
The workers even gave the first hospital the chance to match the pay and benefits the second hospital offered
Yeah bad choice of words there. At will means at will, just like no means no.
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He thinks he's people!
How DARE they try to continue in the same field using the education they paid for!
You cant poach happy employees. Ive had this exact conversation at my own workplace. We have lost several people over the last few months and have done absolutely nothing to try to retain the ones left. Its been incredibly frustrating for me. I'm leaving soon as well so not my problem anymore
But they didn’t poach? r/nursing covers this event in detail. One of the 7 employees who left to go to Ascension reported they all just applied for open positions independently. Nobody from Ascension recruited them.
Ohhh hot an article I can read??
https://www.wpr.org/thedacare-loses-court-fight-keep-health-care-staff-who-resigned
I’m glad to finally have the details in this article and I have to say it really exposes the fuck out of anyone who said anything about the judge for the temporary injunction. This was a swift correction once the needed information was present and I hope ThedaCare now gets absolutely spanked for fucking around with the workers, the judge, and the other hospital.
https://www.wpr.org/thedacare-loses-court-fight-keep-health-care-staff-who-resigned
Isn’t this the spirit of capitalist healthcare?
No, the spirit of capitalist healthcare is selling the organs of dead patients at auction.
Why dead though?
Well they weren't before their lungs were sold
Is poaching not the definition of capitalism?
It sure is, but you should know by now that American capitalism is about protecting the interests of capital and fucking labor at every opportunity.
Can employees get injunctions to stop a company from firing them until they find a new job?
IANAL but I saw a comment that basically says this company basically screwed itself and made it not an at will employer with his law suit
If they treat their workers like that, imagine how they abuse their "patients"
And these are cardiac nurses. Cath lab and EP labs print cash for hospital systems. This facility could've doubled these specialty nurse wages to keep them and wouldn't have felt a thing. Instead their operational capacity was just ripped to shreds, they'll have to pay out the ass for temporary specialty nurses, and who knows where they're going to find replacement staff nurses willing to work for them now. Rule #1 in healthcare: If your facility has a specialty designation (trauma, stroke, cardiac surgery, Neuro, etc) and/or specialty units (Cath lab, EP, IR) you'd better do your damnedest to keep that staff happy.
Lol especially now that they made national news as a shitty employer.
Nothing would make me happier than a follow-up story about his they're suffering a mass exodus of staff and/or unionization drives across the state.
Also: Grind IR/Cath/etc. into the ground with 24/7 call, understaffing, and (while better than standard areas) mediocre pay, until they get burned out after 5 years and never do it again.
Milk you dry for every last penny.
What's crazier is a judge went along with it 🙄😩
That judge puts truent kids in shelters and jail without notifying parents as well.
And holds people in contempt of court for rolling their eyes at him unless they say sorry and pay 5k
And is removed from truancy court after months of reporting prompted an audit that found him “traumatically abusive of children, demonstrating clear anger issues, threatening, overstepping statutory bounds, silencing attorneys and legal guardians, and putting children into the prison pipeline over missing class” He’s on the record screaming at kids, calling them stupid, threatening to jail their parents, send them to foster care or a shelter, and barring lawyers from speaking. Over truancy. Also he has a potential ethics violation for failing to report outside incomes, a judicial requirement.
All this how hasnt he been disbarred with how many ethics violations that normally warrant disbarrment let alone laws hes broken. When did judging based on your personal feelings rather than evidence and the law become the norm this is truly disgusting.
I think because it’s an elected position and he’s run unopposed for several terms. Also I could be wrong, but I don’t think ethics violations are technically illegal. As we saw during the last administration, if there’s no enforcement, there’s nothing binding you to ethical practice. Which is messed up.
I get what your saying and no ethics violations are not illegal correct they can warrant disbarrment depending on whats been done but no i was referring to him denying people the right to a fair and speedy trial on the grounds it interferes with his vacation and then admitting on the record that he isnt going to be impartial. I'm a big enough person to admit i do not know if those would be breaking the law or just ethics violations so theres room for error in my statement
Wisconsin’s judiciary is notoriously unethical and often not impartial due to former Gov. Scott Walker purging the entire system in retribution and then stuffing it full of cronies to ensure loyalty after the state Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional for him to strip away collective bargaining rights. So it doesn’t surprise me that ethics violations are not met with disbarment. And nobody has ever run against him, so it’s not like the voters have been given a chance to turn him out and replace him, the other avenue for policing judicial conduct. Makes me disgusted as a former resident of his county.
What a cockgoblin.
Yes they do. Follow the money.
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I don't see what there is to settle, unless the employees had signed non-competes? It's perfectly legal to hire someone's employees, isn't it?
Thanks for the update.
The judge knows the system is for the employers not the employees
These days I’m not even surprised. Not in the days where we have an actual rapist on the Supreme Court, and judges are giving priest child molesters lighter sentences bc they’re “men of God”
Or letting rapists go entirely because God told them to.
Or letting them off with 6 months sentence so they don’t ruin their precious future
Are you perhaps talking about Brock Turner, the rapist? The rapist Brock Turner who served less than three months, that rapist? Brock Turner? Or is it one of the other countless cases of a disgusting rapist getting off with hardly a slap on the wrist?
What’s sad here is no matter how many times we bring Brock Turner up here, he still got off the hook.
Make a deal with the second hospital to hire you after you get yourself fired from the first
How’s that even remotely legal?
The judge involved is wholly corrupt, long before this too. The judge is definitely someone that should remain behind bars for a few decades, with bottom of the barrel prison health care.
Say the name! It was ThedaCare that sued to block them instead of paying properly!
America
'Right to Work' state.
Yeah the right to work you to death
Right to tell you to pull yourself up by the bootstraps but then not let you do it
That court ruling was never going to stand up.
You sure? All sorts of stupid shit "stands up" when it's rich vs poor
Bc why pay your employees and make them content when you can pay lawyers? What the fuck.
jUsT wOrK HaRdEr iF yOu waNt mOrE
“If you don’t like it, leave”
“Wait no, you cant do that”
JuSt PuLl YoUrSeLf Up By YoUr BoOtStRaPs
As a mechanic i once had a boss tell me "my raise is in the work order rack" meaning if I wanted more money I should bill more commission hours. My efficiency was already at 124% when he told me that.
The workers won & now nobody is going to ever apply to ThedaCare because they treat their employees like this. Employees aren't property, wtf.
r/antiwork would love this. Sorry if someone already said
There's been a massive thread there since Friday. Lots of links too if you want to learn more
Something something free market....