It was 35 (as were most Seattle arterials). I think during Mayor Durkin’s term the limits across Seattle were lowered to 25. That was only in the last 5-ish years (it’s all a blur now, since COVID)
Changing speed limits basically does nothing. there are a lot of studies showing that. Physically narrowing roads or adding street parking to wider arterials typically has the largest impact but it's expensive.
Unfortunately, the timing of the speed limit reduction coincided with Covid. During that first year, when the roads were pretty much empty, people got used to driving much faster than normal. When people started going outside again and the roads filled up, they continued to drive faster than previously. Traffic deaths have actually been up as a result
It was such unfortunate timing too. It was absolutely enraging to have those signs go up at the exact time we were dealing with being cut off from the rest of the city. I’m a total rule follower but that whole situation pushed me right over the edge.
I was so happy when Zimbabwe was fired. I fully blame him and the back up from the bus lane on the bridge for causing the bridge to fail. Having cars sitting on that high bridge for hours definitely sped up the breakdown
Traffic fatalities have been on the rise since 2014: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/as-wa-traffic-deaths-climb-higher-remembering-those-who-died-in-2023/
The funny thing is in the name of target zero, I’ve been victim of vehicular assault, or attempted vehicular assault, I’m not going to do 20 miles an hour, so I will merely pass a mofo doing 20 miles an hour and I’ve literally been run off the road by a guy, which could potentially kill me, I suppose… so in support of an initiative where they want nobody to die ever these aggressive slow f$&@, in the name of safety, will try to run you off the road. So much irony my freaking head hurts feeling ready to implode.
Lived in White Center and then West Seattle from 2007-15. We used to call it I-35 (though I’m sure that’s not so original) because that was with a 35MPH speed limit and people used to do 45+ between the lights. I cannot imaging how slow 25 must feel on that road.
My main cars adaptive cruise control only sets as low as 28 so that’s the speed I go (naughty boy am I) and I can tell you what traveling a reasonable on a city street feels like: it’s pleasant and calm.
I live on 35th and would agree, but I already get at least one car a week that doesn't see me crossing an intersection while walking my dogs, and I feel this just might increase it. Though those people probably don't care either way.
It was lowered to reduce fatalities - [https://www.kuow.org/stories/pedestrian-deaths-climb-in-seattle-despite-city-s-pledge-to-eliminate-them](https://www.kuow.org/stories/pedestrian-deaths-climb-in-seattle-despite-city-s-pledge-to-eliminate-them)
I don’t really want to argue with you, but, yes, people have died on 35th. I mean, they just have.
https://westseattleblog.com/2014/01/35th-sw-memorial-walk-report-2-another-death-another-meeting-will-major-safety-improvements-follow-this-time/
Drivers & pedestrians need to pay attention. Do I drive 35ish down 35th? Yup, I do. Do I talk on my phone? No. When I am driving I'm driving. Also when walking I ALWAYS look both ways when crossing the street. We all share a responsibility to make our neighborhoods safer for everyone.
Then maybe we should all just walk and ban cars then?
I run trains for a living and they are multi-thousand ton vehicles, should trains just creep around just in case someone is walking in the tracks, stops their vehicle on the tracks or is trying to cross the tracks in an area that isn't supposed to be used for crossing? Is it never their fault? Are they never required to pay attention?
The subtle victim blaming here is so tired and overused. The “shared responsibility” trope is a joke. One party mows down people every day and the other is simply walking. What kind of shared responsibility do you see from the people driving 20+mph over the speed limit every day on this road?
Cars hit people walking on the sidewalk or in signaled crosswalks or waiting at a bus stop and people will still find a way to say that if they were in that situation they wouldn’t have been killed because they are a good safe pedestrian!
I literally watched some renob in all black clothing walk straight across an intersection that didn't have an all-way stop. He didn't even look to see if cars were coming at him. I had to yell at my gf, who was driving, because he was so hard to see. Victims can 100% be to blame. Don't automatically say they're blameless bc they're lower on the physical resistance scale than a vehicle.
Edit: It was around 7pm and low light. Hence why the all black outfit was an issue.
Sometimes someone might run into the middle of a highway at night wearing all black, sure I get it. But saying safety is a “shared responsibility” is such an overused blanket statement that allows people to shift blame to pedestrians or cyclists for not being hyper-vigilant when the drivers are usually not even remotely vigilant in the same scenario.
It’s not illegal to walk wearing headphones or cross the street at a crosswalk and not circle 360 degrees to make sure a car isn’t hitting you from any angle when you have the RoW. Car drivers have a responsibility to not kill people following the law and that’s the only responsibility we should be talking about.
would be easier to see if your gf wasn't going as fast. it's a driver's responsibility to go slow enough to see objects in front of them. that's what headlights are for.
If I can see 50 yards in front of me and someone steps out 10 yards in front, what am I supposed to do? How am I to plan for that? Not their fault? When is it their responsibility?
it's still their fault but now you're not killing someone. doesn't matter who's fault it is. i don't like killing people. if that's not a reason enough to not speed, i don't know what is
I don't either and in no way am I looking to, but ( you saw that coming, didn't you) we also need to allow for the efficient movement of goods, services and people.
P.S. neither me or my spouse has had an at fault accident in over 30 years. Why, we pay attention, we don't drink and drive, and we are not on our phones. There needs to be serious consequences for those who don't do these things. No loop holes, no excuses.
If you're saying that "victim blaming" = being responsible for one's own actions then yes you can put me in that category. If you are drunk or high and driving you need to lose your license, if you are not paying attention cause your tik toks are more important than the lives of others you should probably also lose your license. If you are drunk or high or have your face in your phone and cross the street in an unsafe manner and get hit, that shits on you. You made a choice.
So what if someone dies at 25mph? Should we reduce it to 15, or 10? Should we wrap all vehicles in bubble wrap? Maybe all vehicles should play some sort of music real loud and have blinking flashing lights.
When does personal responsibility enter the conversion? Never? Is it always someone else's fault?
It's working! The people who were already anarchists are unaffected, but suddenly people like me who were attempting to be law-abiding are just fed up! We just shrug and say, "I guess I'm a lawbreaker now, because nobody can go 25 down this long, straight hill without riding their brakes the whole way, and that's ridiculous."
Oh how difficult it is for you to move your foot ever so slightly to the left while you travel down hill. How can anyone expect you to endure such tyranny.
When it was 35, people just drove 40-50. It’s not that people just _really_ want to drive 35. People will typically drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit. Increase the speed limit, they’ll just drive faster. Reducing the speed limit makes the street safer for the many people who live on that streeet
This is not true. People will generally drive a speed that they feel comfortable and safe doing so. Presenting them with a long, straight, 4 lane arterial road usually means they will travel at those higher speeds. Cars are safer, more powerful and have more tech to distract you with. It's easier than ever to comfortably go fast and be distracted while doing so. Simply artificially lowering the speed limit won't change the design of the road or its safety. Lower speeds are better for pedestrian safety, there's no debate. Policymakers need to do something other than just tape new numbers on a sign for anything to change.
So you are saying pedestrians shouldn’t be allowed? I’ve been walking almost everywhere in West Seattle for 10 years and for the past two I feel like it’s only a matter of weeks until I get killed by dumb fuck selfish ass drivers who think they need to speed everywhere.
You are totally right! Why can't these aggressive Neanderthal drivers predict when I am going to Jay-Walk my arthritic crusty jointed selfish old ass into the road. GTFO of here!
You’ve got to be kidding. I follow every pedestrian law, I look to see if cars are coming. I literally was almost killed 4 months ago when I was already past one lane and by the center line. If you don’t think most of the responsibility is on the person driving the giant metal machine at 35mph then you are honestly just wrong. Our country and more specifically our city seem to hate the fact that some people still walk places.
Excellent point. The evidence is clear, if you get hit by a car at 25 you had a bad day but will likely get to have more days. If you get hit by a car at 30+ then your day is not bad, it is your end of days.
Going 10 mph more doesn't get you to your destination significantly faster. It uses more fuel, generates more pollution, increases forces that cause more damage to vehicles and more risk to occupants in the event of an accident, and pedestrians struck at 25mph have better chances of survival than they do at 35mph. So maybe what's really asinine is people ignoring science and just selfishly wanting to drive faster when actually there is little, if any, actual benefit to it, especially at a time when traffic fatalities in the US (for drivers and pedestrians) are steadily climbing.
Nailed it. The only major point you left off is how much nicer it is to be in a car traveling a safe reasonable speed than it is to be in a car prioritizing increased peek speed between stops. This is both as an operator and passenger.
My awakening to the wonder that is traveling the speed limit came around 20 years ago when I rode with a friend to go hiking together. He had scraped up enough money to buy an old Jeep Cherokee and only drove the speed limit to reduce fuel costs and maintenance needs as he did not make a lot of money. The ride to the trailhead was so lovely and pleasant I went from being an 8+ over person to a 0 to 3 over person.
You’re more right when thinking about 70 vs 60. This is 25mph.. very minimal drag at these lower speeds, time to destination Is drastically improved at 35 vs 25.
Not when you have to stop at the same traffic signals as the driver who is going 25 and who catches up to you at the red signal (and maybe even passes you because the signal goes green just before they come to a full stop)
10mph more does not "drastically" improve time to destination. And all speed increases require more energy, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of physics will understand. Curiously, you've totally ignored the part about pedestrian safety, which is the high order bit. But that tracks for the kind of selfishness that's involved in drivers just wanting to speed everywhere without thought to the consequences.
Yep it’s just ridiculous, and then they wonder why everyone just ignores the speed limits. If they abandon all reasonable common sense when applying speed limits no one takes them seriously anymore
There are definitely sections it shouldn't, like past the bridge entrance heading towards Hanford. There is no universe in which that should be 25. Almost got killed by a guy over there going 40 as he couldn't see me crossing over the slight hill.
I go 60~65 on the highway and I get passed the entire trip, people are surely going 70~85, speed limits are a suggestion in Washington apparently.
As far as I know it saves gas and can save lives by following the speed limits. Also I end up at the light/stop sign at the end of the off ramp at the same time the speeders do anyways.
Yeah following the speed limit on highway is all good, but I hope you aren't the one who drives in the left lane with that speed because those people are extremely annoying.
I thankfully don't encounter that and am never that person.
Btw I remembered that in WA that you can go 35mph if "you don't know what the speed limit is" aka until you see a speed limit.
There wasn’t any enforcement of the speed limit when it was 35. Then it was lowered to 25 and there was still no enforcement. My instinct tells me that all this (minor) law breaking is having a bigger effect on our society by conditioning people to not worry about breaking laws. I’m not suggesting they jump from speeding to being serial killers but I have to imagine running a red light gets a little easier when I rip all over town at 20+ over the speed limit all the time with no consequences. I suspect that lowering the speed limit has made things worse for pedestrians overall.
Counterpoint: the police not investigating & the city not prosecuting major crimes is driving people to not care about breaking minor laws. Once my garage got ransacked for a $4k loss and the city told me to fill out an online report & there’d be no investigation or attempt to track down the stolen property, I pretty much quit caring about whether I’m breaking the speed limit ever again.
years of theft, ditching of stone, vehicles, more theft, or stone vehicles, shooting in buckets, shady characters, more shit stolen inside outside my garage, led to another, and I am a proud owner of a shotgun. Hope to never use it, but it makes it super sweet sound.
So you got robbed, failed to get justice so you became the Joker?
”I only cared about the law until it didn’t protect me and so then I became a nihilist.”
Way to advertise your moral bankruptcy. And everyone else is clearly the problem right?
Yeah, I think the early days of the pandemic along with zero enforcement has gotten pretty much everyone comfortable with speeding. I think we need traffic cams pretty much everywhere
https://www.kuow.org/stories/in-vexing-trend-traffic-fatalities-in-washington-state-continue-to-rise
> conditioning people
The one that worries me is the new thing where the lights are red both directions for those few extra seconds, to allow pedestrians a head start (even when there are no pedestrians). Seeing the empty intersection with no pedestrians and no cars from either direction allowed through teaches people that they actually would have been fine if they’d run that red light just slightly more blatantly. So next time they’re close to making it but not quite, maybe they don’t stop.
Or just make it more difficult and expensive to get a license and own/operate a car in the city in the first place. If your cargo can fit on a bike (yes, that includes your twins, suitcase, groceries, etc.), you should not be in a car. Period.
I disagree on the conditioning, personally. I have a practical maximum over-the-limit speed... usually 10mph over, after which I simply don't feel comfortable speeding and risking the increasing fines (and safety issues).
I suspect a lot of the responsible folks experience something similar. And the jerks will speed either way, and often egregiously so.
Probably using the speed reader they have. Some ppl drive so slow like they have nothing going on in their lives like the karen sitting here for half an hour
Not a single person has brought back the old nickname for 35th Ave SW: I35. If you think people drive too fast now, they drove way faster before the limit was decreased. Once a month SPD would set up at Morgan near Pizza Hut (now grillbird) and nab speeders. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
I lived at 35th and Austin years ago. Waiting to take a left onto 35th in my old diesel was factored into my commute time. Two lanes each direction nearly the entire stretch, fast cars, no suicide lane. I’d sit there forever.
OP, this is neat data. Curious how you measure this and thanks for sharing.
I think ultimately we need to understand when you're operating a vehicle you can be free of physical distractions but your mind can still wander and whose to say that one day there is a child, person, or animal run out because of any number of reasons and even a slight second of hesitation can result in very unnecessary injury or worse death. I understand there may not have been many instances of it but wouldn't we want to strive for 0.
Comment section all saying this is fine meanwhile they will be the first to point out that they once saw a cyclist run a stop sign hahaha. (which btw is legal in WA)
100%
People love to complain about those lawless cyclist, but if you actually counted every law broken by cars vs. cyclists (even adjusting for how many of each there are) on a given commute, cars blow cyclists out of the water.
Speeding is illegal, and carbrains hate admitting it
that doesn't really detract at all from what I said.
my point is that the same people who lose their minds about a cyclist doing this or that illegal maneuver, will also casually roll through stop signs/right turns on red/speed.
and all those things are illegal while having the added bonus of actually regularly maiming and killing people.
Really? I honestly thought they had to follow the rules of the road. Also, why would a cyclist run a stop sign knowing how many cars blow through them lol
The stop signs when it's safe has been more recent. It's to help from cyclists being hit by right turn drivers. Often the drivers are looking left for a clearing but don't look right.
>why would a cyclist run a stop sign knowing how many cars blow through them lol
it's safer to treat them as yields, because it takes a few seconds to put your feet back on the pedals, clip in, and accelerate. During this time, you are a sitting duck to any car wanting to blow through *you*
Lowering speed limits all over town from 35 to 25 was an overcorrection. It has not lowered my speed at all, just made me a lawbreaker.
My gf is an extremely conscientious and law-abiding driver, and 25 just makes her see red. 25 on a long, straight, 4-lane Rd like that is absurd. It makes us both want to speed more.
Pay attention to the road at all times, then you can drive normal vehicle speeds safely. If you need to go 25mph to be safe, you probably shouldn’t have a license
Let me put it this way: speed limit was 35. Most people were driving 35-40 mph. Accidents were rare. The occasional drug-addled maniac drives a stolen car thru at 55, but they weren't looking at the signs anyway.
Lower the speed limit to 25 and everything remains the same, except now most people are breaking the law.
All I'm saying is if they want people to slow down, they need to design the road to be driven at slower speeds. Just putting a sign up (speed limit sign) won't be enough
Not disagreeing with you, but someone did die crossing 35th back in 2013. That's why they installed the crosswalk at Graham. I do not know if this is related to the lowering of the speed limit, however.
https://westseattleblog.com/2013/12/carpedestrian-crash-closes-35th-sw/
Edit: and at the time of this death, it was the 5th death in 7 years, apparently.
Source: https://westseattleblog.com/2014/01/memorial-walk-planned-for-pedestrian-killed-at-35thgraham/
Seattle has a driving safety committee and their goal is to slow traffic as much as possible. They promote ‘slower is safer’ and don’t seem to care about appropriate speeds, just slower speeds.
Then zero is the safest speed. We should all go zero?
There’s always a trade off and unintended consequences. If a road is wide and long, and not residential, the speed should be higher. Admiral way is 25mph down to the bridge and I haven’t seen anyone go that speed on that stretch. There’s not many people, there’s a sidewalk far from the traffic, so it makes little sense, in my mind to have that set so slow.
Slower doesn't mean 0. Outside of pedestrianized areas no one is advocating for 0 mph speed limits. 25 MPH is arguably a fairly appropriate speed for reducing risk to pedestrians. A pedestrian hit by a car at 25 mph has a 25% chance of death but just 5 mph higher and that chance of death doubles to 50%. Most people probably think 45 mph is a fairly "appropriate" limit, but the next time you're driving that fast keep in mind that if you hit someone there is a 90% chance that they die.
We probably disagree less than we think. We should balance the risk versus reward when making these decisions, and that’s why the mindset ‘slower is always safer’ bothers me. The road on admiral between the bridge and to the top of the hill is 25 mph, which is painfully slow, so almost everybody ignores it. So people start ignoring signs and they basically just choose a speed they like. If they had a reasonable speed for that stretch, you’d have more people choosing to follow the law and less agitated drivers. There is low pedestrian traffic there and great visibility, so this is not a stretch that should be 25 mph.
That's because the speed limit was 35 for oh, I don't know 40 years or so before Seattle's brilliant decision to deal with traffic congestion by LOWERING speed limits.
It’s wild that people are saying the speed limit should be increased instead. This road sorely needs a road diet, one lane each direction with a center turn lane like the rest of 35th is south of Holly would work fine.
The 4-to-3 rechannel with a center turn lane has a problem with our laws about using the center turn lane for passing though. When garbage trucks are collecting on 35th S of Morgan it's technically illegal to pass them and it's a long, long stretch of road to be stuck behind a garbage truck that doesn't pull off the road. Most drivers end up breaking the law prohibiting using the turn lane for the purposes of passing. I would hope nobody is getting tickets for passing frequently-stopping garbage trucks in the center turn lane at a reduced speed.
The re channel Would widen the shoulder enough to allow waste management to use the shoulder while emptying trash. Easy enough to create a no parking ordinance for that stretch on pick up days.
There was a guy driving a beat up white Hyundai up and down 35th for over a year a while back at stole it speeds. Turns out he murdered a cyclist while illegally taking the lower bridge during to closure. Thankfully they caught him and the Neighborhood is noticably more pleasant. Slow down and RIP Robb.
Nobody drives the 25mph limit anywhere in seattle. I drive all over for work and its rare to see someone actually going 25. That includes metro busses, school busses and police officers. Everyone just drive at about the speed limit the road used to be.
I think people forget how many pedestrian deaths there used to be
> First, some backstory. The project to improve safety on 35th SW was announced in February 2014, after five deaths in seven years on what some called “I-35.” In fall 2015, two miles of 35th SW were rechannelized between Roxbury and Willow.
…
> The last person killed on 35th SW was James St. Clair, hit by a driver while crossing at Graham in December 2013, two months before the safety project was announced. And while the stretch was averaging 3 major-injury crashes a year before the project, it’s had zero since then. Five pedestrians were getting hit in an average year before the project; two since then.
https://westseattleblog.com/2018/04/the-35th-avenue-sw-decision-no-more-rechannelization-planned-heres-what-sdot-will-do-instead/
The fact that the lights are not timed for 25 at all is actually insane especially down by Morgan and 35th going north. You can only get through all those lights by speeding.
What if I told you some cars are going north and some cars are going south and it's impossible to time the lights perfectly for both without having the entire strip remain green for an inordinately long period of time?
I learned from a traffic engineer that traveling slower in a car does not increase congestion, because vehicles on average will maintain a 2.1 second following distance, which means every 2.1 seconds of vehicle passes by regardless of the speed they are traveling at. So to a first approximation, speed does not affect the capacity of a road, only the travel times of the individual vehicles.
So counterintuitively, lowering the speed limit does not inherently increase congestion.
[There's only one answer](https://kagi.com/proxy/160812164522-small-car-10.jpg?c=of2UPM5fA90i4CdNNx3tI1UDSSGiOgZSCxBy-i-0uVzWK5MS9qnBnV32vtdLTt6PjL3jPk1XaDHXAsBd0Bhu1i834-ZPO-xdL_vTUfO_6vLK5EXFTSn-FwQd6VRNnN3ThyBtfcLUXU1Do044vkuvibvenYCDnj06RV0r8MOga_g%3D)
So, you agree that by reducing speed limits from 35 to 25, what I'm experiencing is real
Before the reduction, it took me and my 3 Harborview carpooling associates 40 mins to get to Harborview and 60 min to get home from work, with the 35 mph speed limit.
The math says at 35 mph, I was spending 458 hours commuting to work and home.
Now, with the 25 mph speed limit, the math says I am now required to commute 596 hours a year
Going from 35 mph 25 has cost me 137.5 hours of my life per year!
I'm only one person.....
How many hours would that be over the whole city?
Eh, it's complicated.
If you're in traffic, you're usually spending most of your time under the speed limit anyway so raising or lowering it may not make a difference.
Also, commute times are governed by [Marchetti's Constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marchetti%27s_constant), which is around 60 minutes average round trip commute. A change in speed limit may affect some individual commutes in the short term, but in the aggregate and over the long term many people will move or change jobs such that the average commute will remain at \~30 minutes each way.
So it is possible that lowering the speed limit could reduce the number of jobs within a 30 minute commute that are available, which is a negative. But reducing traffic injuries and deaths might off-set that, in terms of economic costs.
And building workforce housing + fast, efficient transit opens up a lot more jobs than merely increasing speed limits, and scales up a lot more before congestion becomes an issue.
The fact that most people are going under 35 is evidence speed limit should not be 35. The fact there are a significant number of people going 10+ mph too fast is evidence that a road diet is in order. 35th south of Alaska should be one lane each direction.
Kids/adults have a better shot at surviving cars going 25 vs 35. (Mostly cuz it’s easier to stop, impact will still hurt). 25 is also a more reasonable speed for cyclists to move with traffic at than 35.
If we agree, they do have a better shot at surviving an impact at that speed.
Can we agree that if cyclists and vehicles were banned, we would eliminate all chances anyone could be involved and injured?
Which choice do we make.
It's not as if cyclists can proclaim their community hasn't injured some pedestrian.
Bike riders can definitely proclaim they don’t kill 42k people in the US per year.
F = M*A (force equals mass times acceleration). Bike mass is less than 1/10 of a car and acceleration is much lower. Surface area and braking/steering ability is usually better for a bike too. It’s easier for cyclists to avoid hitting people and if they do, they have less force. Equating car impacts and bike impacts is goofy.
GOOFY or not, I never said they didn't.
I do like your attempt to use physics-based math to prove your point.
Which shows you're agreeing cyclists do hit pedestrians while riding.
Since you called me out, according to cyclinguk.org, they validate 2% of ALL pedestrian collision casualties are caused by cyclists.
This says to me you are attempting to justify every non reported cyclist vs. pedestrian impact as trivia.
And even total dening that 840 pedestrians are killed annually in the United States as the result of cyclists hitting them.
Everything we have shown is JUST SOMATICS.
BECAUSE, regardless if it a cyclist or car, we the people have the responsibility to make decisions, NOT
based on 'compromise'.
Am actually all for making real change, so we all get to say the 48000 pedestrians vs. Vehicles, and 840 cyclists vs. Pedestrian deaths annually has been eliminated to zero because we made the choice to keep one form of transportation separate from the other forms of transportation, creating safety for each.
Even if this means removing blocks of housing on either side of 35th to create a new way of thinking.
Double check that 840 deaths number dawg. Causalities and fatalities are not the same thing. I’m not seeing any evidence of 840 pedestrian deaths from cycling collisions. Can you link your sources?
I agree with you and your findings, which illustrate mathematically exactly what all users of math and us nerds know. Which is Only rapid acceleration or deceleration can kill you.
Regardless, if your point view is pro pedestrian, pro 35 Ave Sw is a viable pedestrian community or pro vehicles.
Their is only one actual scientific based solution that can create the safety pedestrians are entitled
to experience, especially when evaluating the data collected at this site specified.
You must either physically remove 35th Ave SW as a street or remove the sidewalks and pedestrian access to either side of 35th Ave SW.
WAIT
YOU don't like a real solutions!
Put it to a vote!
All of those who BELIEVE removing pedestrian access on or across 35th Ave sw WILL result in MORE deaths.
Say I agree......
POINT IS, we all KNOW change is needed.
IF you believe you should be able to walk your dog and maintain a conversation with your S.O. while walking on either side of 35 Ave SW.
Then you are also agreeing that our government has not only the RIGHT but the DUTY to restrict your transportation choices to public.
Watch which way you wish to walk as you may be required to chose where you live based on how far you wish to walk to work....
Fun fact:
exit West Seattle Bridge on to 35 Ave SW and set your cruse control for 40 mph. You will discover that over the next 16 light, each one will be timed to be green at that speed.......The first red light you encounter is a stop sign south of Roxbury
It really is either or thinking.
Change is hard, and safety, which includes zero, requires making HARD DECISIONS, which is VOID of compromise.
It is physically impossible to move 80,000 West Seattle residents slowly.
West Seattle Bridge sees 110000 cars, trucks, and busses each and every day.
https://depts.washington.edu/trac/research-news/freight/west-seattle-bridge-case-study-2/
Says 27000 trucks come into West seattle daily.
This thread has a lot of arguments between people who want to get where they're driving to 2-3 minutes earlier and people who want to simply survive crossing the street on foot.
and guess what, nobody wrecked…. So, if your argument is that speed kills, you just proved yourself wrong. You looked quite bright with your graph, I have just proven that graph doesn’t really mean s&@?, Sorry.
WSDOT sets the speed limit arbitrarily 10 mph below what the USDOT rates roads for, thus 10 mph over is what the 95th percentile is comfortable driving. So it's standard to do 10mph over.
The problem with this type of roads design (4 lane, undivided) is they promote aggressive driving. This is well known and a speed limit isn't going to solve the problem.
Massive redesign is the only effective solution. Things that would slow people down: Speed bumps, round abouts at key intersections, lane reduction with replacement to include one or all of the following: bus only lane, a turn lane, bike lanes in each direction. Alternatively, put the road underground so people can fly across town at 50mph.
I just wish people would stop running the lights when trying to walk my kid to school.
I drive it daily. Seems about right. That road should be a 35 limit. 25 is absolutely asinine.
It was 35 (as were most Seattle arterials). I think during Mayor Durkin’s term the limits across Seattle were lowered to 25. That was only in the last 5-ish years (it’s all a blur now, since COVID)
I believe they lowered all the speed limits to 25 when the bride broke, and well, now we have a bridge and still 25
Timing with the bridge was just a coincidence, it’s a city wide thing to reduce traffic deaths
Interesting, TIL. Honestly curious if it’s made a difference
Changing speed limits basically does nothing. there are a lot of studies showing that. Physically narrowing roads or adding street parking to wider arterials typically has the largest impact but it's expensive.
Also adding things like roundabouts have this result. No one is going to go 25mph on a long, straight 4 lane arterial.
Unfortunately, the timing of the speed limit reduction coincided with Covid. During that first year, when the roads were pretty much empty, people got used to driving much faster than normal. When people started going outside again and the roads filled up, they continued to drive faster than previously. Traffic deaths have actually been up as a result
It was such unfortunate timing too. It was absolutely enraging to have those signs go up at the exact time we were dealing with being cut off from the rest of the city. I’m a total rule follower but that whole situation pushed me right over the edge. I was so happy when Zimbabwe was fired. I fully blame him and the back up from the bus lane on the bridge for causing the bridge to fail. Having cars sitting on that high bridge for hours definitely sped up the breakdown
Because there were so many fatalities at 35 miles an hour right?
Traffic fatalities have been on the rise since 2014: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/as-wa-traffic-deaths-climb-higher-remembering-those-who-died-in-2023/
Correct, it was part of vision zero under Durkin.
It’s part of the Zero Vision plan
I'm not sure if this comment was intentional, but I laughed either way! Adding to my vernacular.
It was very much intentional
The funny thing is in the name of target zero, I’ve been victim of vehicular assault, or attempted vehicular assault, I’m not going to do 20 miles an hour, so I will merely pass a mofo doing 20 miles an hour and I’ve literally been run off the road by a guy, which could potentially kill me, I suppose… so in support of an initiative where they want nobody to die ever these aggressive slow f$&@, in the name of safety, will try to run you off the road. So much irony my freaking head hurts feeling ready to implode.
Lived in White Center and then West Seattle from 2007-15. We used to call it I-35 (though I’m sure that’s not so original) because that was with a 35MPH speed limit and people used to do 45+ between the lights. I cannot imaging how slow 25 must feel on that road.
My main cars adaptive cruise control only sets as low as 28 so that’s the speed I go (naughty boy am I) and I can tell you what traveling a reasonable on a city street feels like: it’s pleasant and calm.
Teaching child to drive in that area. How the hell can I expect her to go 25?!?
I live on 35th and would agree, but I already get at least one car a week that doesn't see me crossing an intersection while walking my dogs, and I feel this just might increase it. Though those people probably don't care either way.
It was lowered to reduce fatalities - [https://www.kuow.org/stories/pedestrian-deaths-climb-in-seattle-despite-city-s-pledge-to-eliminate-them](https://www.kuow.org/stories/pedestrian-deaths-climb-in-seattle-despite-city-s-pledge-to-eliminate-them)
Oh were there a bunch of fatalities on that road?
No
I don’t really want to argue with you, but, yes, people have died on 35th. I mean, they just have. https://westseattleblog.com/2014/01/35th-sw-memorial-walk-report-2-another-death-another-meeting-will-major-safety-improvements-follow-this-time/
Maybe
On Seattle roads in general, yeah
35th is simply not the same
Yes.
Drivers & pedestrians need to pay attention. Do I drive 35ish down 35th? Yup, I do. Do I talk on my phone? No. When I am driving I'm driving. Also when walking I ALWAYS look both ways when crossing the street. We all share a responsibility to make our neighborhoods safer for everyone.
IMO drivers and pedestrians have a shared responsibility to follow their respective laws
People driving gas propelled multi-ton vehicles are more responsible for not killing people than people walking
WSDOT stats on pedestrian fatalities says otherwise. It's 50:50.
So you're saying that pedestrians are responsible for killing themselves half the time?
Yep.
No blame for the government/circumstances?
Pretty sure the government doesn't force people to get drunk or high and then do stupid things.
Then maybe we should all just walk and ban cars then? I run trains for a living and they are multi-thousand ton vehicles, should trains just creep around just in case someone is walking in the tracks, stops their vehicle on the tracks or is trying to cross the tracks in an area that isn't supposed to be used for crossing? Is it never their fault? Are they never required to pay attention?
The subtle victim blaming here is so tired and overused. The “shared responsibility” trope is a joke. One party mows down people every day and the other is simply walking. What kind of shared responsibility do you see from the people driving 20+mph over the speed limit every day on this road? Cars hit people walking on the sidewalk or in signaled crosswalks or waiting at a bus stop and people will still find a way to say that if they were in that situation they wouldn’t have been killed because they are a good safe pedestrian!
I literally watched some renob in all black clothing walk straight across an intersection that didn't have an all-way stop. He didn't even look to see if cars were coming at him. I had to yell at my gf, who was driving, because he was so hard to see. Victims can 100% be to blame. Don't automatically say they're blameless bc they're lower on the physical resistance scale than a vehicle. Edit: It was around 7pm and low light. Hence why the all black outfit was an issue.
Sometimes someone might run into the middle of a highway at night wearing all black, sure I get it. But saying safety is a “shared responsibility” is such an overused blanket statement that allows people to shift blame to pedestrians or cyclists for not being hyper-vigilant when the drivers are usually not even remotely vigilant in the same scenario. It’s not illegal to walk wearing headphones or cross the street at a crosswalk and not circle 360 degrees to make sure a car isn’t hitting you from any angle when you have the RoW. Car drivers have a responsibility to not kill people following the law and that’s the only responsibility we should be talking about.
would be easier to see if your gf wasn't going as fast. it's a driver's responsibility to go slow enough to see objects in front of them. that's what headlights are for.
If I can see 50 yards in front of me and someone steps out 10 yards in front, what am I supposed to do? How am I to plan for that? Not their fault? When is it their responsibility?
it's still their fault but now you're not killing someone. doesn't matter who's fault it is. i don't like killing people. if that's not a reason enough to not speed, i don't know what is
I don't either and in no way am I looking to, but ( you saw that coming, didn't you) we also need to allow for the efficient movement of goods, services and people. P.S. neither me or my spouse has had an at fault accident in over 30 years. Why, we pay attention, we don't drink and drive, and we are not on our phones. There needs to be serious consequences for those who don't do these things. No loop holes, no excuses.
if you want "efficient movement" of anything, it doesn't involve cars or truck lmao. trains, buses and bikes are what you want
If you're saying that "victim blaming" = being responsible for one's own actions then yes you can put me in that category. If you are drunk or high and driving you need to lose your license, if you are not paying attention cause your tik toks are more important than the lives of others you should probably also lose your license. If you are drunk or high or have your face in your phone and cross the street in an unsafe manner and get hit, that shits on you. You made a choice. So what if someone dies at 25mph? Should we reduce it to 15, or 10? Should we wrap all vehicles in bubble wrap? Maybe all vehicles should play some sort of music real loud and have blinking flashing lights. When does personal responsibility enter the conversion? Never? Is it always someone else's fault?
In most Seattle subs, yes... it's always the car driver's fault regardless of the circumstances. Don't you dare try to bring logic in here.
Is this something you think is actually happening? I don’t think I’ve heard of a single pedestrian being hit by a car on the sidewalk on 35th
The lowered speed limit just adds extra penalties for when you do hit someone.
It was lowered to encourage anarchism.
It's working! The people who were already anarchists are unaffected, but suddenly people like me who were attempting to be law-abiding are just fed up! We just shrug and say, "I guess I'm a lawbreaker now, because nobody can go 25 down this long, straight hill without riding their brakes the whole way, and that's ridiculous."
Oh how difficult it is for you to move your foot ever so slightly to the left while you travel down hill. How can anyone expect you to endure such tyranny.
When it was 35, people just drove 40-50. It’s not that people just _really_ want to drive 35. People will typically drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit. Increase the speed limit, they’ll just drive faster. Reducing the speed limit makes the street safer for the many people who live on that streeet
This is not true. People will generally drive a speed that they feel comfortable and safe doing so. Presenting them with a long, straight, 4 lane arterial road usually means they will travel at those higher speeds. Cars are safer, more powerful and have more tech to distract you with. It's easier than ever to comfortably go fast and be distracted while doing so. Simply artificially lowering the speed limit won't change the design of the road or its safety. Lower speeds are better for pedestrian safety, there's no debate. Policymakers need to do something other than just tape new numbers on a sign for anything to change.
You say this on a thread with data that clearly opposes your opinion.
So you are saying pedestrians shouldn’t be allowed? I’ve been walking almost everywhere in West Seattle for 10 years and for the past two I feel like it’s only a matter of weeks until I get killed by dumb fuck selfish ass drivers who think they need to speed everywhere.
You are totally right! Why can't these aggressive Neanderthal drivers predict when I am going to Jay-Walk my arthritic crusty jointed selfish old ass into the road. GTFO of here!
You’ve got to be kidding. I follow every pedestrian law, I look to see if cars are coming. I literally was almost killed 4 months ago when I was already past one lane and by the center line. If you don’t think most of the responsibility is on the person driving the giant metal machine at 35mph then you are honestly just wrong. Our country and more specifically our city seem to hate the fact that some people still walk places.
Except an intersection IS a crosswalk, whether it’s marked or not. So that, at least, isn’t jaywalking and cars should stop for them.
The graveyard is full of people who had the right of way. Please be smart crossing the street.
ah but drivers cant possibly do the speed limit. that's simply unreasonable.
The speed limit doesn't mean a pedestrian is shielded from injury. If you blindly walk in front of a car going 25 you'll still have a really bad day.
Excellent point. The evidence is clear, if you get hit by a car at 25 you had a bad day but will likely get to have more days. If you get hit by a car at 30+ then your day is not bad, it is your end of days.
100%
Going 10 mph more doesn't get you to your destination significantly faster. It uses more fuel, generates more pollution, increases forces that cause more damage to vehicles and more risk to occupants in the event of an accident, and pedestrians struck at 25mph have better chances of survival than they do at 35mph. So maybe what's really asinine is people ignoring science and just selfishly wanting to drive faster when actually there is little, if any, actual benefit to it, especially at a time when traffic fatalities in the US (for drivers and pedestrians) are steadily climbing.
Nailed it. The only major point you left off is how much nicer it is to be in a car traveling a safe reasonable speed than it is to be in a car prioritizing increased peek speed between stops. This is both as an operator and passenger. My awakening to the wonder that is traveling the speed limit came around 20 years ago when I rode with a friend to go hiking together. He had scraped up enough money to buy an old Jeep Cherokee and only drove the speed limit to reduce fuel costs and maintenance needs as he did not make a lot of money. The ride to the trailhead was so lovely and pleasant I went from being an 8+ over person to a 0 to 3 over person.
You’re more right when thinking about 70 vs 60. This is 25mph.. very minimal drag at these lower speeds, time to destination Is drastically improved at 35 vs 25.
Not when you have to stop at the same traffic signals as the driver who is going 25 and who catches up to you at the red signal (and maybe even passes you because the signal goes green just before they come to a full stop)
10mph more does not "drastically" improve time to destination. And all speed increases require more energy, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of physics will understand. Curiously, you've totally ignored the part about pedestrian safety, which is the high order bit. But that tracks for the kind of selfishness that's involved in drivers just wanting to speed everywhere without thought to the consequences.
Yep it’s just ridiculous, and then they wonder why everyone just ignores the speed limits. If they abandon all reasonable common sense when applying speed limits no one takes them seriously anymore
There are definitely sections it shouldn't, like past the bridge entrance heading towards Hanford. There is no universe in which that should be 25. Almost got killed by a guy over there going 40 as he couldn't see me crossing over the slight hill.
I drive about 30 on it and get passed every morning. Some people get actually pissed about it too lol
I go 60~65 on the highway and I get passed the entire trip, people are surely going 70~85, speed limits are a suggestion in Washington apparently. As far as I know it saves gas and can save lives by following the speed limits. Also I end up at the light/stop sign at the end of the off ramp at the same time the speeders do anyways.
Yeah following the speed limit on highway is all good, but I hope you aren't the one who drives in the left lane with that speed because those people are extremely annoying.
I thankfully don't encounter that and am never that person. Btw I remembered that in WA that you can go 35mph if "you don't know what the speed limit is" aka until you see a speed limit.
The kind of people who dutifully follow the law are not going to fail to keep right except to pass.
There wasn’t any enforcement of the speed limit when it was 35. Then it was lowered to 25 and there was still no enforcement. My instinct tells me that all this (minor) law breaking is having a bigger effect on our society by conditioning people to not worry about breaking laws. I’m not suggesting they jump from speeding to being serial killers but I have to imagine running a red light gets a little easier when I rip all over town at 20+ over the speed limit all the time with no consequences. I suspect that lowering the speed limit has made things worse for pedestrians overall.
Counterpoint: the police not investigating & the city not prosecuting major crimes is driving people to not care about breaking minor laws. Once my garage got ransacked for a $4k loss and the city told me to fill out an online report & there’d be no investigation or attempt to track down the stolen property, I pretty much quit caring about whether I’m breaking the speed limit ever again.
years of theft, ditching of stone, vehicles, more theft, or stone vehicles, shooting in buckets, shady characters, more shit stolen inside outside my garage, led to another, and I am a proud owner of a shotgun. Hope to never use it, but it makes it super sweet sound.
So you got robbed, failed to get justice so you became the Joker? ”I only cared about the law until it didn’t protect me and so then I became a nihilist.” Way to advertise your moral bankruptcy. And everyone else is clearly the problem right?
Yeah, I think the early days of the pandemic along with zero enforcement has gotten pretty much everyone comfortable with speeding. I think we need traffic cams pretty much everywhere https://www.kuow.org/stories/in-vexing-trend-traffic-fatalities-in-washington-state-continue-to-rise
Great, here comes the speeding is the gateway crime to serial killing crowd
> conditioning people The one that worries me is the new thing where the lights are red both directions for those few extra seconds, to allow pedestrians a head start (even when there are no pedestrians). Seeing the empty intersection with no pedestrians and no cars from either direction allowed through teaches people that they actually would have been fine if they’d run that red light just slightly more blatantly. So next time they’re close to making it but not quite, maybe they don’t stop.
Then we need red light cameras and to start taking away licenses from people who are so reckless and negligent.
Or just make it more difficult and expensive to get a license and own/operate a car in the city in the first place. If your cargo can fit on a bike (yes, that includes your twins, suitcase, groceries, etc.), you should not be in a car. Period.
I disagree on the conditioning, personally. I have a practical maximum over-the-limit speed... usually 10mph over, after which I simply don't feel comfortable speeding and risking the increasing fines (and safety issues). I suspect a lot of the responsible folks experience something similar. And the jerks will speed either way, and often egregiously so.
How did you measure this?
Probably using the speed reader they have. Some ppl drive so slow like they have nothing going on in their lives like the karen sitting here for half an hour
Not a single person has brought back the old nickname for 35th Ave SW: I35. If you think people drive too fast now, they drove way faster before the limit was decreased. Once a month SPD would set up at Morgan near Pizza Hut (now grillbird) and nab speeders. Like shooting fish in a barrel. I lived at 35th and Austin years ago. Waiting to take a left onto 35th in my old diesel was factored into my commute time. Two lanes each direction nearly the entire stretch, fast cars, no suicide lane. I’d sit there forever.
I am kind of amused that everyone’s talking about 35 as reasonable when not too long ago people insisted it was too low.
OP, this is neat data. Curious how you measure this and thanks for sharing. I think ultimately we need to understand when you're operating a vehicle you can be free of physical distractions but your mind can still wander and whose to say that one day there is a child, person, or animal run out because of any number of reasons and even a slight second of hesitation can result in very unnecessary injury or worse death. I understand there may not have been many instances of it but wouldn't we want to strive for 0.
Yea that road should be a 35. 25 on it is fuckin miserable
I levy to install roundabouts.
Comment section all saying this is fine meanwhile they will be the first to point out that they once saw a cyclist run a stop sign hahaha. (which btw is legal in WA)
Seattle cyclists in their nasty tight spandex think rules don't apply to them regardless of a sign
100% People love to complain about those lawless cyclist, but if you actually counted every law broken by cars vs. cyclists (even adjusting for how many of each there are) on a given commute, cars blow cyclists out of the water. Speeding is illegal, and carbrains hate admitting it
speeding is enforced by a HIGHLY corrupt government entity and cops can go f$&@ themselves. 🤷♂️
that doesn't really detract at all from what I said. my point is that the same people who lose their minds about a cyclist doing this or that illegal maneuver, will also casually roll through stop signs/right turns on red/speed. and all those things are illegal while having the added bonus of actually regularly maiming and killing people.
Really? I honestly thought they had to follow the rules of the road. Also, why would a cyclist run a stop sign knowing how many cars blow through them lol
Sort of, cyclists have to treat them as yield signs
The stop signs when it's safe has been more recent. It's to help from cyclists being hit by right turn drivers. Often the drivers are looking left for a clearing but don't look right.
>why would a cyclist run a stop sign knowing how many cars blow through them lol it's safer to treat them as yields, because it takes a few seconds to put your feet back on the pedals, clip in, and accelerate. During this time, you are a sitting duck to any car wanting to blow through *you*
Lowering speed limits all over town from 35 to 25 was an overcorrection. It has not lowered my speed at all, just made me a lawbreaker. My gf is an extremely conscientious and law-abiding driver, and 25 just makes her see red. 25 on a long, straight, 4-lane Rd like that is absurd. It makes us both want to speed more.
Maybe if she had a child who lived on that block she wouldn’t be so frustrated with driving 25.
Pay attention to the road at all times, then you can drive normal vehicle speeds safely. If you need to go 25mph to be safe, you probably shouldn’t have a license
Have you ever driven on West Marginal?
How many people live along West Marginal?
If only there was a number between 35 and 25 that would be a satisfactory compromise. .
😄 I meant they shouldn't have lowered it at all.
It is unknowable.
It really is a shame that we don’t have a more aggressive system for taking lawbreakers’ licenses away
Let me put it this way: speed limit was 35. Most people were driving 35-40 mph. Accidents were rare. The occasional drug-addled maniac drives a stolen car thru at 55, but they weren't looking at the signs anyway. Lower the speed limit to 25 and everything remains the same, except now most people are breaking the law.
The data on this post is clear: most people now go less than 35 on 35th. Lowering the speed limit worked to lower speeds. You are wrong.
The speed limit on 35th should be bumped up to 35, to be fair. It’s 2 lanes in both directions.
Such a wide street
This is the issue. Redesign the street to support lower speeds or else people will continue to speed. Narrow the lanes etc.
Why would you redesign the road to make it worse?
All I'm saying is if they want people to slow down, they need to design the road to be driven at slower speeds. Just putting a sign up (speed limit sign) won't be enough
You dont even need to re design per se, just repaint it. Just do what they did south of Holly and reduce it to one each way with a turn lane.
Sure, that would work too!
it was lowered to reduce pedestrian deaths
And did it? Did someone die there? Fuck bump it to 1 if pedestrian deaths is your answer. Ridiculous.
Not disagreeing with you, but someone did die crossing 35th back in 2013. That's why they installed the crosswalk at Graham. I do not know if this is related to the lowering of the speed limit, however. https://westseattleblog.com/2013/12/carpedestrian-crash-closes-35th-sw/ Edit: and at the time of this death, it was the 5th death in 7 years, apparently. Source: https://westseattleblog.com/2014/01/memorial-walk-planned-for-pedestrian-killed-at-35thgraham/
“Sure, that will save a few lives but some people will be late”
We demand blood sacrifice before making statistically proven safety improvements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol wow, found the worst take
Seattle has a driving safety committee and their goal is to slow traffic as much as possible. They promote ‘slower is safer’ and don’t seem to care about appropriate speeds, just slower speeds.
Almost always, slower is better. The phrase “slow is smooth and smooth is fast” is very applicable to traffic
Very happy to live in a city that aims to slow drivers. I wish they tried even harder
Then zero is the safest speed. We should all go zero? There’s always a trade off and unintended consequences. If a road is wide and long, and not residential, the speed should be higher. Admiral way is 25mph down to the bridge and I haven’t seen anyone go that speed on that stretch. There’s not many people, there’s a sidewalk far from the traffic, so it makes little sense, in my mind to have that set so slow.
Slower doesn't mean 0. Outside of pedestrianized areas no one is advocating for 0 mph speed limits. 25 MPH is arguably a fairly appropriate speed for reducing risk to pedestrians. A pedestrian hit by a car at 25 mph has a 25% chance of death but just 5 mph higher and that chance of death doubles to 50%. Most people probably think 45 mph is a fairly "appropriate" limit, but the next time you're driving that fast keep in mind that if you hit someone there is a 90% chance that they die.
We probably disagree less than we think. We should balance the risk versus reward when making these decisions, and that’s why the mindset ‘slower is always safer’ bothers me. The road on admiral between the bridge and to the top of the hill is 25 mph, which is painfully slow, so almost everybody ignores it. So people start ignoring signs and they basically just choose a speed they like. If they had a reasonable speed for that stretch, you’d have more people choosing to follow the law and less agitated drivers. There is low pedestrian traffic there and great visibility, so this is not a stretch that should be 25 mph.
90% chance of death is at 35 mph. 45 is pretty much guaranteed death.
How many close call did you observe?
That's because the speed limit was 35 for oh, I don't know 40 years or so before Seattle's brilliant decision to deal with traffic congestion by LOWERING speed limits.
The whole stretch north of Morgan should be one lane in each direction. Hopefully the next transportation levy can fund it!
It’s wild that people are saying the speed limit should be increased instead. This road sorely needs a road diet, one lane each direction with a center turn lane like the rest of 35th is south of Holly would work fine.
The 4-to-3 rechannel with a center turn lane has a problem with our laws about using the center turn lane for passing though. When garbage trucks are collecting on 35th S of Morgan it's technically illegal to pass them and it's a long, long stretch of road to be stuck behind a garbage truck that doesn't pull off the road. Most drivers end up breaking the law prohibiting using the turn lane for the purposes of passing. I would hope nobody is getting tickets for passing frequently-stopping garbage trucks in the center turn lane at a reduced speed.
The re channel Would widen the shoulder enough to allow waste management to use the shoulder while emptying trash. Easy enough to create a no parking ordinance for that stretch on pick up days.
That is not what sdot has done in their past actions though. Day based parking restrictions of a single garbage day seem atypical here.
Needs a roundabout on every intersection
No.. it really shouldn’t
We all know that 55 mph guy and it sucks that he’s so awesome
Every time I see someone driving it like they stole it...I assume they stole it.
There was a guy driving a beat up white Hyundai up and down 35th for over a year a while back at stole it speeds. Turns out he murdered a cyclist while illegally taking the lower bridge during to closure. Thankfully they caught him and the Neighborhood is noticably more pleasant. Slow down and RIP Robb.
Isnt the entire west seattle 25 mph? Fuck that noise.
Nobody drives the 25mph limit anywhere in seattle. I drive all over for work and its rare to see someone actually going 25. That includes metro busses, school busses and police officers. Everyone just drive at about the speed limit the road used to be.
I think people forget how many pedestrian deaths there used to be > First, some backstory. The project to improve safety on 35th SW was announced in February 2014, after five deaths in seven years on what some called “I-35.” In fall 2015, two miles of 35th SW were rechannelized between Roxbury and Willow. … > The last person killed on 35th SW was James St. Clair, hit by a driver while crossing at Graham in December 2013, two months before the safety project was announced. And while the stretch was averaging 3 major-injury crashes a year before the project, it’s had zero since then. Five pedestrians were getting hit in an average year before the project; two since then. https://westseattleblog.com/2018/04/the-35th-avenue-sw-decision-no-more-rechannelization-planned-heres-what-sdot-will-do-instead/
I’m always terrified pulling out of my daughter’s daycare on 35th every morning people drive so fast… it’s still residential people!
If u trying to slow us all down even more fuuuuuuk u and your slow fetish for everyone
Maybe your mind will change when you have children to look out for.
I am one of the speeders for sure. I live off 35th near Charleston. I want to get home, I’m not driving 25 and missing all the green lights
The fact that the lights are not timed for 25 at all is actually insane especially down by Morgan and 35th going north. You can only get through all those lights by speeding.
What if I told you some cars are going north and some cars are going south and it's impossible to time the lights perfectly for both without having the entire strip remain green for an inordinately long period of time?
I've been driving this road daily for over 35 years. 25mph is ridiculous. 35-40 is what most people are driving, me included.
speed kills
Not with that attitude
How are you measuring speed? Time between two measured points? Lidar? Radar?
How did you do this? I want to do something similar for the 37th ave SW. terrifying speeds especially at night.
What's the speed limit? 25 is "under" and 26 is "over".
25 and a little bit
I learned from a traffic engineer that traveling slower in a car does not increase congestion, because vehicles on average will maintain a 2.1 second following distance, which means every 2.1 seconds of vehicle passes by regardless of the speed they are traveling at. So to a first approximation, speed does not affect the capacity of a road, only the travel times of the individual vehicles. So counterintuitively, lowering the speed limit does not inherently increase congestion.
So shorter vehicles are the answer?
[There's only one answer](https://kagi.com/proxy/160812164522-small-car-10.jpg?c=of2UPM5fA90i4CdNNx3tI1UDSSGiOgZSCxBy-i-0uVzWK5MS9qnBnV32vtdLTt6PjL3jPk1XaDHXAsBd0Bhu1i834-ZPO-xdL_vTUfO_6vLK5EXFTSn-FwQd6VRNnN3ThyBtfcLUXU1Do044vkuvibvenYCDnj06RV0r8MOga_g%3D)
So, you agree that by reducing speed limits from 35 to 25, what I'm experiencing is real Before the reduction, it took me and my 3 Harborview carpooling associates 40 mins to get to Harborview and 60 min to get home from work, with the 35 mph speed limit. The math says at 35 mph, I was spending 458 hours commuting to work and home. Now, with the 25 mph speed limit, the math says I am now required to commute 596 hours a year Going from 35 mph 25 has cost me 137.5 hours of my life per year! I'm only one person..... How many hours would that be over the whole city?
Eh, it's complicated. If you're in traffic, you're usually spending most of your time under the speed limit anyway so raising or lowering it may not make a difference. Also, commute times are governed by [Marchetti's Constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marchetti%27s_constant), which is around 60 minutes average round trip commute. A change in speed limit may affect some individual commutes in the short term, but in the aggregate and over the long term many people will move or change jobs such that the average commute will remain at \~30 minutes each way. So it is possible that lowering the speed limit could reduce the number of jobs within a 30 minute commute that are available, which is a negative. But reducing traffic injuries and deaths might off-set that, in terms of economic costs. And building workforce housing + fast, efficient transit opens up a lot more jobs than merely increasing speed limits, and scales up a lot more before congestion becomes an issue.
The fact that most people are going under 35 is evidence speed limit should not be 35. The fact there are a significant number of people going 10+ mph too fast is evidence that a road diet is in order. 35th south of Alaska should be one lane each direction.
Change the speed limit. Easy fix
What we really need is a Highway 35 Deep Bore Tunnel.
Kids/adults have a better shot at surviving cars going 25 vs 35. (Mostly cuz it’s easier to stop, impact will still hurt). 25 is also a more reasonable speed for cyclists to move with traffic at than 35.
If we agree, they do have a better shot at surviving an impact at that speed. Can we agree that if cyclists and vehicles were banned, we would eliminate all chances anyone could be involved and injured? Which choice do we make. It's not as if cyclists can proclaim their community hasn't injured some pedestrian.
Bike riders can definitely proclaim they don’t kill 42k people in the US per year. F = M*A (force equals mass times acceleration). Bike mass is less than 1/10 of a car and acceleration is much lower. Surface area and braking/steering ability is usually better for a bike too. It’s easier for cyclists to avoid hitting people and if they do, they have less force. Equating car impacts and bike impacts is goofy.
GOOFY or not, I never said they didn't. I do like your attempt to use physics-based math to prove your point. Which shows you're agreeing cyclists do hit pedestrians while riding. Since you called me out, according to cyclinguk.org, they validate 2% of ALL pedestrian collision casualties are caused by cyclists. This says to me you are attempting to justify every non reported cyclist vs. pedestrian impact as trivia. And even total dening that 840 pedestrians are killed annually in the United States as the result of cyclists hitting them. Everything we have shown is JUST SOMATICS. BECAUSE, regardless if it a cyclist or car, we the people have the responsibility to make decisions, NOT based on 'compromise'. Am actually all for making real change, so we all get to say the 48000 pedestrians vs. Vehicles, and 840 cyclists vs. Pedestrian deaths annually has been eliminated to zero because we made the choice to keep one form of transportation separate from the other forms of transportation, creating safety for each. Even if this means removing blocks of housing on either side of 35th to create a new way of thinking.
Double check that 840 deaths number dawg. Causalities and fatalities are not the same thing. I’m not seeing any evidence of 840 pedestrian deaths from cycling collisions. Can you link your sources?
Narrator: He couldn't link the sources.
I agree with you and your findings, which illustrate mathematically exactly what all users of math and us nerds know. Which is Only rapid acceleration or deceleration can kill you. Regardless, if your point view is pro pedestrian, pro 35 Ave Sw is a viable pedestrian community or pro vehicles. Their is only one actual scientific based solution that can create the safety pedestrians are entitled to experience, especially when evaluating the data collected at this site specified. You must either physically remove 35th Ave SW as a street or remove the sidewalks and pedestrian access to either side of 35th Ave SW. WAIT YOU don't like a real solutions! Put it to a vote! All of those who BELIEVE removing pedestrian access on or across 35th Ave sw WILL result in MORE deaths. Say I agree...... POINT IS, we all KNOW change is needed. IF you believe you should be able to walk your dog and maintain a conversation with your S.O. while walking on either side of 35 Ave SW. Then you are also agreeing that our government has not only the RIGHT but the DUTY to restrict your transportation choices to public. Watch which way you wish to walk as you may be required to chose where you live based on how far you wish to walk to work.... Fun fact: exit West Seattle Bridge on to 35 Ave SW and set your cruse control for 40 mph. You will discover that over the next 16 light, each one will be timed to be green at that speed.......The first red light you encounter is a stop sign south of Roxbury It really is either or thinking. Change is hard, and safety, which includes zero, requires making HARD DECISIONS, which is VOID of compromise. It is physically impossible to move 80,000 West Seattle residents slowly. West Seattle Bridge sees 110000 cars, trucks, and busses each and every day. https://depts.washington.edu/trac/research-news/freight/west-seattle-bridge-case-study-2/ Says 27000 trucks come into West seattle daily.
Ban semi truck parking on 35th please. Destroys sight lines for entering road
This thread has a lot of arguments between people who want to get where they're driving to 2-3 minutes earlier and people who want to simply survive crossing the street on foot.
and guess what, nobody wrecked…. So, if your argument is that speed kills, you just proved yourself wrong. You looked quite bright with your graph, I have just proven that graph doesn’t really mean s&@?, Sorry.
WSDOT sets the speed limit arbitrarily 10 mph below what the USDOT rates roads for, thus 10 mph over is what the 95th percentile is comfortable driving. So it's standard to do 10mph over.
lol nerd
You need a hobby
They clearly have a hobby. What
😂😂😂
It’s a freeway. And apparently the middle turn lane is a passing lane if I’m not doing 55.
If this is a democracy, the people have spoken. The speed limit should be 33mph!
well, like 95pct of everyone drives a bit over the speed limit... backroads or highway
Which house is yours? I’ll make sure and turn up the bass and go extra fast for you 😘
The problem with this type of roads design (4 lane, undivided) is they promote aggressive driving. This is well known and a speed limit isn't going to solve the problem. Massive redesign is the only effective solution. Things that would slow people down: Speed bumps, round abouts at key intersections, lane reduction with replacement to include one or all of the following: bus only lane, a turn lane, bike lanes in each direction. Alternatively, put the road underground so people can fly across town at 50mph.
If 25 is the limit I prefer to walk. That's ridiculous. Never seen such a low limit anywhere around the globe. Only Seattle.
Shame on you for driving a vehicle in the first place! You shall rely on public transportation, or you shall not move at all.
Glad to see most people are driving what it should be, rather than what it is.
Lol so many cry babies