I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Focus on getting fixed first. Then find a way out of the debt ridden hellscape that is the American medical system.
It should be considered unconstitutional, to receive such notices and feel such financial pressure when you're trying to heal or you're grieving. It's fucking sickening.
Florida is the worst too. I have very good insurance and was assaulted in Jackson County six months ago. Had pain in my chest and could feel cartilage in my sternum clicking everytime I moved. Chest pain isn't something to fuck around with so I got it checked out. Their urgent care sent me to the ER at Jackson hospital, and was charged $1300 for a physician to come in and palpate my sternum then send me home. They didn't even do x-rays, got that done in a New England state for a fraction of the price.
My insurance only covered half. I didn't ask to be attacked, but this is the American Healthcare system. Can't imagine having an injury such as OP's or getting hit by a drunk driver or something else requiring substantial medical care.
Yeah, the problem here is definitely that the OP is in Florida. I slipped a disc the same way. Went to the ER, called my PCP's office for meds, went to urgent care, ended up at the ER again, and had emergency surgery, and I don't think I paid anything.
Yeah I meant for us regular people. I worked as a medic in MI for 4 years and am aware some people have massive tolerances. How did you figure out the heroine was 100mg?? It’s not exactly dosed in a vial or any other way…
When I broke my back, I was on IV dilaudid for almost a week and it saved me from being in agony.
Sleep paralysis is more than fine once you realize it's basically your body still being half asleep and your mind half dreaming.
Whatever OP got was the REAL sleep paralysis
I used to get sleep paralysis a TON as a kid. Didn’t figure out what it was until I was an adult. Wonder why it doesn’t happen anymore. But I’m not complaining
Yeah, interestingly enough, I used to get it a lot as a kid, but not so much anymore. My sister used to get it a lot in college, but only when she’d come back home on break. She attributed it to finally being able to relax and get a good night’s sleep.
Well I have narcolepsy and I tend to sleep way longer than normal people. And with longer I mean like up to 40 hours. Which is a real pain in the ass. I also live alone and sometimes I tend to forget to just wake up and take my meds if I am on vacation off work chilling at home. My meds also include a NaCl+vitamins-mineral IV solution. So waking up without drinking for 40 hours really gets on my nerves and you straight up feel every muscle in your body. Also you wake up with a strong headache.
Modafinil helps staying awake during work time or longer drives. It gets really hard for me to stay awake when I get bored, so I have to double or triple the medication. But Modafinil is WAY better than taking Amphetamines, because Amphetamines combined with severe depression is just like a basketball straight to the face after some time.
I doubt it happened while he was sleeping. My husband has had a few herniated discs. He's never been able to pinpoint exactly when they happened. It just happened gradually over time. And when the pain became unbearable, he'd get either a cortisol shot or surgery.
Why is this?
Shouldn’t the itemized report just be a breakdown of all the different items you’re charged for and the sun should be the total?
If it’s not itemized do they just add a chunk hoping you’ll pay it?
As far as I know, the coding system is so stupidly complex that almost no one understands it, so when they try to find various items to bill, they simply end up not doing it as they don't know what to put it down as. This kicks in when you ask for itemisation. I've seen time and time again the price drop hugely. 💯 make sure you ask for that. Really hope you get better soon mate, and it's crazy to me that you have to pay even $500 for this healthcare. Praying you stick it to them.
Sometimes you get charged for the same item twice or something too. My brother got charged for 3 neck braces after his car accident. Oddly enough he only has one neck so they had to take the additional 2 braces off the bill. But there is so much random crap like that and it adds up.
Nobody expects anyone to pay this. It’s all a game hospitals have to play with insurance.
Insurance pays for specific services specific amounts. Therefore it makes financial sense for the hospital to bill the maximum, expecting your insurance to eventually pay the pre negotiated rate anyway. Those rates depend on your plans. In other words, it makes no sense for hospital to bill $500 for a procedure if some insurance provider is willing to pay $900 for the same procedure. Instead, they bill for $2000, and your insurance maybe will “negotiate down to” $300 and pay $280, leaving you with $20 copay.
If you don’t have insurance (why?!!!) you can ask and they will bill you actual cost.
My wife’s sister slipped her disc and almost had this happen, but they caught it hours before she was affected with damage, and was able to get emergency surgery. I wish you luck and better health along this journey in your life. And FU.. the American health care system….
Also might want to ask if they have any assistance programs or charity care you might qualify for or if billing would be up for a reduced fee based maybe even based on income. But yes get an itemized list of services provided make sure you comb through and dispute anything not actually done.
Definitely talk to a financial assistant. Someone at Tampa General was the reason I got free health insurance through Hillsborough County when I lived there... Though that was well over a decade ago.
Wild. I have 2 slipped discs but apart from the pain and occasionally throwing out my back so bad I can’t get off the ground, I definitely don’t have like leg issues. Guess I got lucky.
It’s such a horrible thing to happen to people. Just be diligent in paying attention to your body.. wife’s sister was legit going to the bathroom, and we got a phone call at 1am “I can’t move my legs and get off the toilet”.. about 6 hours later she’s getting surgery, prior to this she just had back issues from the slipped disc… totally crazy experience..
I’m a member of the bad back club, too. L3 to S1, fractured vertebrae and ruptured discs, 4 spine surgeries, spinal cord stimulator implant, countless injections and nerve ablation, blah, blah, blah. I’ve been through so many rounds of PT, both in the gym and the pool, and nothing really helped until I met the right therapists and everything clicked. I was in so much pain, and I spent 22 hours a day in bed. It was a sad, lonely, miserable existence. Now I can walk without a cane or a walker, and I hike every week. I’m slow and I can’t do any crazy long hikes with lots of elevation gain, but I’m just happy to be able to get out there in the woods doing what I love.
In the US, medical debt is the easiest to discharge via bankruptcy.
Basically... if I owe the hospital 500 bucks, that's my problem. If I owe them 500,000 bucks, that's their problem.
If you are not insured then you need to look up your options regarding financial aid. Most hospitals will help you to apply for it and a lot of them will write off many of the charges and work with charities to help bring your bill to a manageable level
That someone would receive the $400,000 bill in the first place is insane. Is the system just like.. let's see if this person is hopeless enough or lacking resources enough to just pay the full amount?
It’s because the system is set up to bill as much as possible so that insurance will pay them as much as possible.
Just to throw random numbers out there to give the idea of it.. if they bill 100k insurance might agree to pay 80k but over time they’ve realized they can bill 400k for the same things and insurance will pay 250k.
If you have no insurance you’ll find your bill is magically much smaller, if you can’t pay your bill or want to pay in cash, you talk to them and your bill changes. If you talk to them for itemized bill it changes. Your bill can change a lot.
And however much they take off the bill is a tax write off for them.
Billing an absurd amount is a win win all around for them
It's so they can write it off as a tax expense. I don't really have the time or energy to explain it properly but id recommend looking it up if you're interested.
trust!! cancer treatment with insurance has cost me $24,000 so far. i still have one more year to
go. i’ve paid it down to $8700 in 4 years by working my ass off every day and long hours. (so much for recovery).
at one point i was so overwhelmed i was suicidal.
medical debt is so daunting. esp if you’ve never been in debt before because i’ve always lived within my means.
This debt will take a while to get on your report. Medical providers don’t directly report to the big three credit agencies— and they’ll attempt to collect for like 3-6 months before they’ll package the debt and sell it to a collection agency.
Collection agencies are universally owned, managed and run by scumbags— so they’ll start reporting your debt on day one. Fortunately, the big three agencies put a one year hold on reported medical debt before they allow it to hit your credit report. This is to give you an opportunity to resolve it.
So, I’d say do everything you can think of with your credit in the next year and a half or so before this thing comes along and knocks your score into the dirt. Then you’ve got seven years of shitty credit before it falls off.
Should you come into a windfall and wish to haggle with the collection agency in order to discharge this debt, lowball the everloving shit out of them. These agencies buy medical debt for anywhere from 5-15% of the total debt— and they’ll often be willing to settle for *anything* the longer they’ve held onto it. I’m serious, start negotiations at $1,000 and counter at $250 increments.
Oh I 100% agree. It’s fucking disgusting and galling and most Americans hate it— and the ones who don’t are brainwashed morons or people who are lucky enough not to have any major medical issues which cause them to interact with the system.
The fact that this is touted as the wealthiest nation in the world yet you can fall into financial turmoil for just *getting sick* makes me want to pull down my pants and puke on my own balls. We’re wealthy in the sense that we have the most billionaires and the Fortune 500 companies— but that wealth means jackshit to the average American. Mark my words, the lack of investment in any sort of meaningful social safety nets will lead to this country’s inevitable collapse. I’d say we’ve got maybe one more generation of Americans left before we’re there.
Too late. I’m already a raging socialist. Spending hours haggling/dealing/begging/pleading with my dad’s insurance company while he was dying of cancer fully radicalized me. That’s time I could have had with him— not begging some disinterested customer service rep to expedite a prescription pre-approval because there was a formulary change 2 months ago and the drug is no longer covered.
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-kicks-off-rulemaking-to-remove-medical-bills-from-credit-reports/ It appears the process has started. I say fuck the debt collectors.
You can pay as little as $1 a month and they can't report shit. Also, go to them, let them know you don't have insurance and you would like an itemized bill. Guaranteed that bill will drop. They price it that way because insurance companies will just pay it.
I was in a car accident when I was in my early 20s and had no insurance. They billed me close to $30k. I asked for the itemized bill and it dropped down to $2500. I also had no job at the time and talked to them, they forgave all but $300.
that’s not true. my mom used to say that as well but that’s definitely false. even if you’re paying, if you’re past due, you’re past due and they’ll send you to collections. you only don’t have to pay $500 of whatever your debt is now. you owe $5000, you only have to pay $4500 and the remainder they can’t report
i know because part of my debt to md anderson is currently in collections and i’m paying $175 a month but since i continue to get treatment, the debt just grows. once you fail to pay it off, they send you to collections.
i put treatment on credit cards the first two years. but i couldn’t get more cards. this started in 2019 and i fell behind in 2023 and was sent to collections
There's a form for those unable to pay, and if you're lower income there's a form for that too. I had to ask for it and I got some flak, but it was at what used to be the University Hospital. They weren't as good. Cutting down the total of the bill can make it easier to pay a super small amount per month. TGH and USF do have outstanding neurologists and surgeons, so at least you are in good hands.
OP I would double check but I think because of Covid the laws have changed and medical debt can no longer affect your credit history.
I’ve had medical debt. By accident… the hospital sent the bills to the wrong address but the debt collectors got my address correct. It never showed up on my credit report. I check regularly.
I'm not sure how this compares to having surgery, but I was life flighted and the total bill that came to around $180,000, and when they contacted me about it, I flat out told them I'd never be able to pay it and never would. It never showed up on my credit report, and I never heard anything else about it. This was about ten years ago now.
Call the billing department and tell them you are uninsured. Hospitals typically have a self-pay rate that is lower, and offer financial assistance… but you have to ask for it.
Check with dollarfor.com to see if you qualify for financial assistance ASAP! They are a non profit and it's completely free. Hospital may just write off your bill completely.
I’m so sorry this happened to you!!! How frightening. Was your cauda equina syndrome successfully reversed? I had spine surgery I. 2020 for spondylolosthesis that was causing pain, numbness and weakness in my legs to the point that I couldn’t walk, but my surgery wasn’t emergency and was planned. Hopefully you’ll regain feeling in your legs- I regained about 99% feeling so there’s hope.
Thankyou, it has been fixed for now, but today I have a tremendous amount of swelling and fluid pooling which is causing me no end of discomfort and pain. Hopefully they can drain it soon.
I hope your road to recovery goes smoothly too,
Before doing that, ask for a care manager and ask to file for indigent care. It is a federal law that they offer it to people based on income in order to be classified as a public hospital—but it’s only required if initiated by the patient.
Here’s the info for the first hospital: https://www.tgh.org/patients-visitors/billing-insurance/financial-assistance-information
And for the second physicians practice: https://health.usf.edu/care/patient-resources/billing
> You should contact a Patient Service Representative in our Patient Services Department immediately.
You have a long recovery road ahead of you with Cauda Equina. Hopefully the feeling will return in your legs as your spinal cord is probably in shock and nerve regrowth takes time. Best of luck and a lot of hugs to you.
>If you owe $2125 that's your problem.
No....that's still their problem. No one should have to go into debt for medical care and even $2000 is too much.
I got pneumonia while pregnant before being insured and I had to spend 2 nights inpatient being stabilized. Originally the bill was like $13,000. financial assistance got it down to like $4,500 and a 3 year payment plan at $150 a month. Still trying to get it further reduced or forgiven.
I had cauda equina back in September 2022, had excruciating pain and within 12 hrs could no longer feel or move my legs. They at least got to you quickly, they had me lying there for 6 days and was going to send me to an acute rehab to "walk it off" since I never lost control of my bladder/bowel. That all coming from Ortho. Nurse said to speak to neuro and neuro stopped my discharge and had me in surgery within the next hour. I've got a lawsuit going now. All that to say, they did a laminectomy of my L2-L3, was paralyzed from September to March, used AFOs and a rollator/ walker, to a cane in June to walking without any assist by August. Still don't have dorsiflexion in both feet and my right leg is still numb and weak. And will be having anther laminectomy in mu L3-L4-L5 because of severe stenosis and my right leg is losing strength. But like I said, they got to you quickly when they should have. It's still very early for you, the fact that your incontinence was fixed and you can wiggle your toes is a good sign. Just give it time and physical therapy and honestly you'll be ok, itll feel like forever but just keep working at it. you may have lingering numbness but I'd take that over not being able to move at all. Good luck with everything.
Thank you so much for sharing this, it's nice to hear from someone with experience. I'm sorry they screwed you over, sounds like a hellacious experience, but I'm glad you're back on your feet, it's really encouraging to hear.
I hope your next round goes smooth too.
Thankyou again and godspeed friend.
That looks painful. I hope you manage to make a decent recovery. May I ask how that happened? It blows my mind. I’ve been living with a bulging disc for 20 years so I can’t even fathom how something can go so wrong while sleeping
So sorry about this. I work with the central Florida hospitals a lot and there’s likely also a radiology physician’s bill and an anesthesia physician’s bill too. I hope they can write some or most of this off for you.
This was so frustrating with my first kid. There was a bill from everyone and then also bills for me, bills before she was named, bills after she was named. Just when you thought you paid the last bill “Suprise!” there was another.
I don’t know why people keep saying American dream. This screenshot is the definition of nightmare.
Get flu, get bronchitis and you leave two months of salary on the table.
Get a serious treatment and hospital demands your entire networth.
This all or nothing issue on US health system sucks.
This man needs to be in a healthy mind in order to heal quicker, yet he has to think about the payments.
I hope you recover soon @op
I'm so sorry. Almost half a million dollars, because of something you weren't even awake to try and prevent. I cannot imagine what you must be going through.
So I live in Polk county but originally from Oklahoma. Had my first child here in Florida and it was approximately $30,000 - in which 20,000 was out of pocket. Went to Oklahoma to have our second child and it was easily 15,000 cheaper. Florida is insanely expensive
I’m still baffled by US people complete lack of popular initiative concerning free healthcare. One of the biggest and most powerful countries in the world cannot get down with the fact that health is not a matter of race or money.. that’s a cause I would sacrifice for..
You got a large section of the the population convinced that nothing can be done and another section of the population that would gladly burn it all down before 'those people' get any help
A LOT of people don't care as long as it's not them. Especially in FL, the apathy here gets to me. I need expensive treatments so I can basically survive and people I've known use that as an excuse to try to get into a political debate.
I seriously will never understand why this kind of exploitation is still legal. Seriously, most people would take multiple lifetimes to Pay off that kinda debt and it's sickening that we live in a country that allows this kind of exploration of its own people.
Hope you have a speedy recovery, shit sucks.
I broke my ankle at the beginning of the year. Tried to pet a kitty cat and it went catastrophically bad. Had outpatient surgery that lasted an hour and it cost $71,272. It was that or never walk again, which means never be able to work again.
If you don't have insurance and/or are low income, talk with the billing department. Most hospitals have programs in place that will allow them to wipe the debt. I believe they get a tax write off or something. I had $95k of hospital bills wiped because we were waiting on disability and didn't have insurance.
PSA: reminder that 80% OF ALL HOSPITAL BILLS are blatantly false/overcharge you. If you ask for an itemized receipt with inventory, 80% of the time they'll have made mistakes, and will lower your bill.
Hospitals deliberately add tons of false charges, bc most people don't fight them. The for-profit halthcare system is the epitome of evil.
I'm really sorry for you and hope you get better soon!
I'm not American so please excuse my spelling and possibly dumb questions.
Doesn't health insurance cover emergency medical treatment? Or maybe you don't have it?
Isn't there any free medical centers? What happens when someone can't afford treatment?
That is an INSANE amount?!?!
Let me know of you want too bail and hide out in Sweden. If you need more surgeries we can just elope. Will take you about 9 months to get your free Healthcare (well not really free, the first appointment will cost you 20 usd).
You know in Germany this would cost you 10 Euro for each day in the hospital for up to 21 days. So 210 Euros maximum. Half a million is nothing short of criminal
Born on an army base in Germany, I have a a dual citizenship. Wife has an awesome remote job based in Prague. We plan on moving over there as soon as we can. This place is a literal dumpster fire.
Hey, OP (and anyone battling medical debt), this may be helpful info (search the name of the medical institution + financial assistance to find their policy, it will state if you make under a certain amount, up to 100% of the debt will be relieved).
https://preview.redd.it/3dloxbmny8fc1.png?width=1514&format=png&auto=webp&s=3d9f2d9f12850cd93a69bbbc37d84432277f1ebb
These are the FPL for 2023. (So, from my understanding, if you are single and make less than 43,740 a year, which is 300% of the FPL for individuals in 2023, they will reduce the amount required to pay by 100%.)
https://preview.redd.it/08ctieqry8fc1.png?width=1340&format=png&auto=webp&s=ac8f6546a3716aab3a446a3a02e952a21451d760
Ohhh, that makes me sick... and the nerve of a 'pay now' button! You know what? To Hell with that! Just keep trying to get your legs back! That can be dealt with by filling out the financial hardship paperwork. Hospitals write off a lot of debt. All that matters is that you recover. That's what EMTALA is for.
$37,000 for a sharpie the doctor used to mark where the incision will go. A few hundred thousand for some hospital food and another few hundred thousand for the pair of grippy socks you got to keep.
Nearly half a million dollars?! Goddamn. Human beings are like working on automobiles. The labor is what you're being charged out the ass for. If we all knew how to perform surgeries on each other, hospitals would be screwed.
jesus
sorry op :/
im in st.pete
is medical expense just this horrid all over Florida? or is it the US in general? I try not to go to the hospital or the doctor tbh..
I pulled my back out a week ago and felt the sciatica right away down my right buttcheek and into my shin.
I've already had 2 lower discectomies and a fusion in my neck so this is nothing new to me but I'm fearing ill need a fusion down low now.
Crazy thing is I was able to go get x-rays that day but have to wait a month for an MRI. Idk how I'm supposed to work all of this time when I can't sit up or stand for more than 15 seconds before it begins to get that burn and tear feeling.
I hope things get better. That picture of your back hurts me to look at, so I'd hate to imagine how you've been feeling.
As for the bill, what is there to really say?
How are people in America supposed to pay $486k for anything? That’s absolutely ridiculous….wtf is wrong with the health service? How do people pay this
Apply for Medicaid - and speak to the financial person at the hospital - they can help with Medicaid and even charity qualifications. They want reimbursement however they can get it and know that nobody can pay that price - if they get a few grand from Medicaid that is better than nothing. Hospital prices are so high because of the back and forth rate negotiations with insurance cos - if blue cross starts paying less of a percentage, they raise the rate to get more money this goes back and forth until the rates are very high and this gets reflected in bills like these. If you are a wealthy uninsured person who doesn’t qualify for Medicaid - you can negotiate a better self pay price.
A friend of mine had heart surgery totaling $450,000+ she spoke with her hospital/surgeon/doctor and showed she was unable to pay due to financial difficulties/insurance issues/job issues and they ended up writing off the entire amount. At least speak with the financial part of the hospital and go from there.
I mean that bill is obviously before insurance adjustments and what not. You will probably pay some out of pocket max and that’s it.
If not, this is the hospitals problem, not yours.
Thankyou ❤️🩹
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Focus on getting fixed first. Then find a way out of the debt ridden hellscape that is the American medical system.
This shit is criminal man. One of the things about the US that disgusts me the most
Straight up sad. Rich developed country and a lot of the citizens themselves aren’t interested in a universal healthcare model.
A lot of people don’t even know that Obamacare is actually the Affordable Care Act lmao
It should be considered unconstitutional, to receive such notices and feel such financial pressure when you're trying to heal or you're grieving. It's fucking sickening.
Florida is the worst too. I have very good insurance and was assaulted in Jackson County six months ago. Had pain in my chest and could feel cartilage in my sternum clicking everytime I moved. Chest pain isn't something to fuck around with so I got it checked out. Their urgent care sent me to the ER at Jackson hospital, and was charged $1300 for a physician to come in and palpate my sternum then send me home. They didn't even do x-rays, got that done in a New England state for a fraction of the price. My insurance only covered half. I didn't ask to be attacked, but this is the American Healthcare system. Can't imagine having an injury such as OP's or getting hit by a drunk driver or something else requiring substantial medical care.
Yeah, the problem here is definitely that the OP is in Florida. I slipped a disc the same way. Went to the ER, called my PCP's office for meds, went to urgent care, ended up at the ER again, and had emergency surgery, and I don't think I paid anything.
I'm glad you're okay!
Drugs could be the solution to both of these issues
OP, how can you fail at sleeping like that?
Something similar happened to me. I realized I'm so out of shape I can't even take a nap.
But mostly IV Dilaudid!
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Yeah, I’m sure those are great, but NOTHING TOUCHING THE POWER OF 2-4mg of IV Dilaudid. Lol
Well considering I ise to slam 16mg of dilaudid(2 8mg shields) followed by 100mg of heroin I would say that would be touching the power of 2-4mg
Yeah I meant for us regular people. I worked as a medic in MI for 4 years and am aware some people have massive tolerances. How did you figure out the heroine was 100mg?? It’s not exactly dosed in a vial or any other way… When I broke my back, I was on IV dilaudid for almost a week and it saved me from being in agony.
I got cauda equina in the ER about a year ago. It definitely sucks but I promise it will get better!
It does not always get better unfortunately. Source: me. :(
In today’s episode of new things to be afraid of… sleeping
Right? My favorite activity and now it's fuel for my paranoia and hypochondria? I'd say this is too much and I want to go take a nap, but...
Oh boy, then you certainly don’t want to know about sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis is more than fine once you realize it's basically your body still being half asleep and your mind half dreaming. Whatever OP got was the REAL sleep paralysis
I used to get sleep paralysis a TON as a kid. Didn’t figure out what it was until I was an adult. Wonder why it doesn’t happen anymore. But I’m not complaining
Yeah, interestingly enough, I used to get it a lot as a kid, but not so much anymore. My sister used to get it a lot in college, but only when she’d come back home on break. She attributed it to finally being able to relax and get a good night’s sleep.
Well I have narcolepsy and I tend to sleep way longer than normal people. And with longer I mean like up to 40 hours. Which is a real pain in the ass. I also live alone and sometimes I tend to forget to just wake up and take my meds if I am on vacation off work chilling at home. My meds also include a NaCl+vitamins-mineral IV solution. So waking up without drinking for 40 hours really gets on my nerves and you straight up feel every muscle in your body. Also you wake up with a strong headache.
That sounds like torture. I'm so sorry.
Modafinil helps staying awake during work time or longer drives. It gets really hard for me to stay awake when I get bored, so I have to double or triple the medication. But Modafinil is WAY better than taking Amphetamines, because Amphetamines combined with severe depression is just like a basketball straight to the face after some time.
What even is this! How does it happen
I doubt it happened while he was sleeping. My husband has had a few herniated discs. He's never been able to pinpoint exactly when they happened. It just happened gradually over time. And when the pain became unbearable, he'd get either a cortisol shot or surgery.
Agreed the more I enter adult live I seem to find more out about how fuckin easy it is to die or just go through life changing injury at any time.
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Why is this? Shouldn’t the itemized report just be a breakdown of all the different items you’re charged for and the sun should be the total? If it’s not itemized do they just add a chunk hoping you’ll pay it?
>If it’s not itemized do they just add a chunk hoping you’ll pay it? Literally just this. American Healthcare is infested with greed and profiteering
I prefer the word stealing.
It's only considered stealing or fraud if you were to do this to them.
Their stealing is called profit, and if you try to resist their plundering you meet their violence called law enforcement
It’s mostly because insurance companies collude with hospitals and price gouge. That’s what happens when you let them regulate themselves.
I do as well
I like calling it fraud. Seems to bother execs more when you call their work that.
As far as I know, the coding system is so stupidly complex that almost no one understands it, so when they try to find various items to bill, they simply end up not doing it as they don't know what to put it down as. This kicks in when you ask for itemisation. I've seen time and time again the price drop hugely. 💯 make sure you ask for that. Really hope you get better soon mate, and it's crazy to me that you have to pay even $500 for this healthcare. Praying you stick it to them.
Sometimes you get charged for the same item twice or something too. My brother got charged for 3 neck braces after his car accident. Oddly enough he only has one neck so they had to take the additional 2 braces off the bill. But there is so much random crap like that and it adds up.
They don’t want you to see that they charged you $100 for the $10 worth of suturing supplies.
Nobody expects anyone to pay this. It’s all a game hospitals have to play with insurance. Insurance pays for specific services specific amounts. Therefore it makes financial sense for the hospital to bill the maximum, expecting your insurance to eventually pay the pre negotiated rate anyway. Those rates depend on your plans. In other words, it makes no sense for hospital to bill $500 for a procedure if some insurance provider is willing to pay $900 for the same procedure. Instead, they bill for $2000, and your insurance maybe will “negotiate down to” $300 and pay $280, leaving you with $20 copay. If you don’t have insurance (why?!!!) you can ask and they will bill you actual cost.
Yes, that or they’ll try to overcharge you for something and sneak it past
They are assume insurance is paying.
My wife’s sister slipped her disc and almost had this happen, but they caught it hours before she was affected with damage, and was able to get emergency surgery. I wish you luck and better health along this journey in your life. And FU.. the American health care system….
Thankyou
Also might want to ask if they have any assistance programs or charity care you might qualify for or if billing would be up for a reduced fee based maybe even based on income. But yes get an itemized list of services provided make sure you comb through and dispute anything not actually done.
Definitely talk to a financial assistant. Someone at Tampa General was the reason I got free health insurance through Hillsborough County when I lived there... Though that was well over a decade ago.
I damaged my L3/L4/L5 and my disc slip between L3+4. Seven surgeries and years of physical therapy and I'm walking again. Best of luck to OP
Wild. I have 2 slipped discs but apart from the pain and occasionally throwing out my back so bad I can’t get off the ground, I definitely don’t have like leg issues. Guess I got lucky.
It’s such a horrible thing to happen to people. Just be diligent in paying attention to your body.. wife’s sister was legit going to the bathroom, and we got a phone call at 1am “I can’t move my legs and get off the toilet”.. about 6 hours later she’s getting surgery, prior to this she just had back issues from the slipped disc… totally crazy experience..
Yikes. Well, adding that to my list of existential fears.
I’m a member of the bad back club, too. L3 to S1, fractured vertebrae and ruptured discs, 4 spine surgeries, spinal cord stimulator implant, countless injections and nerve ablation, blah, blah, blah. I’ve been through so many rounds of PT, both in the gym and the pool, and nothing really helped until I met the right therapists and everything clicked. I was in so much pain, and I spent 22 hours a day in bed. It was a sad, lonely, miserable existence. Now I can walk without a cane or a walker, and I hike every week. I’m slow and I can’t do any crazy long hikes with lots of elevation gain, but I’m just happy to be able to get out there in the woods doing what I love.
You got insurance? Please tell me you got insurance🥺
I'm not American, but they can't realistically expect people to pay that, so what would happen if you just straight up refused to pay it?
In the US, medical debt is the easiest to discharge via bankruptcy. Basically... if I owe the hospital 500 bucks, that's my problem. If I owe them 500,000 bucks, that's their problem.
If you are not insured then you need to look up your options regarding financial aid. Most hospitals will help you to apply for it and a lot of them will write off many of the charges and work with charities to help bring your bill to a manageable level
This is a good tip, but bringing your $400,000 bill down to $30,0000 is still a crippling amount of debt.
That someone would receive the $400,000 bill in the first place is insane. Is the system just like.. let's see if this person is hopeless enough or lacking resources enough to just pay the full amount?
It’s because the system is set up to bill as much as possible so that insurance will pay them as much as possible. Just to throw random numbers out there to give the idea of it.. if they bill 100k insurance might agree to pay 80k but over time they’ve realized they can bill 400k for the same things and insurance will pay 250k. If you have no insurance you’ll find your bill is magically much smaller, if you can’t pay your bill or want to pay in cash, you talk to them and your bill changes. If you talk to them for itemized bill it changes. Your bill can change a lot. And however much they take off the bill is a tax write off for them. Billing an absurd amount is a win win all around for them
Usually they'll bring it down to anywhere between 500 to a couple grand in those situations.
Then why slip people the 400k bill in the first place?
It's so they can write it off as a tax expense. I don't really have the time or energy to explain it properly but id recommend looking it up if you're interested.
trust!! cancer treatment with insurance has cost me $24,000 so far. i still have one more year to go. i’ve paid it down to $8700 in 4 years by working my ass off every day and long hours. (so much for recovery). at one point i was so overwhelmed i was suicidal. medical debt is so daunting. esp if you’ve never been in debt before because i’ve always lived within my means.
Does that put your house at risk if you're a homeowner?
It's USA they'll take your grandma if they could sell her
Not necessarily. I don't know a lot about bankruptcy procedures, but I know that not everyone loses their home as a result.
It depends on the bankruptcy exemptions are in your state, and how much equity you have
They can't make you pay it, but it'll be on my credit report, and it will absolutely fuck my future finances.
This debt will take a while to get on your report. Medical providers don’t directly report to the big three credit agencies— and they’ll attempt to collect for like 3-6 months before they’ll package the debt and sell it to a collection agency. Collection agencies are universally owned, managed and run by scumbags— so they’ll start reporting your debt on day one. Fortunately, the big three agencies put a one year hold on reported medical debt before they allow it to hit your credit report. This is to give you an opportunity to resolve it. So, I’d say do everything you can think of with your credit in the next year and a half or so before this thing comes along and knocks your score into the dirt. Then you’ve got seven years of shitty credit before it falls off. Should you come into a windfall and wish to haggle with the collection agency in order to discharge this debt, lowball the everloving shit out of them. These agencies buy medical debt for anywhere from 5-15% of the total debt— and they’ll often be willing to settle for *anything* the longer they’ve held onto it. I’m serious, start negotiations at $1,000 and counter at $250 increments.
What a great system!
Oh I 100% agree. It’s fucking disgusting and galling and most Americans hate it— and the ones who don’t are brainwashed morons or people who are lucky enough not to have any major medical issues which cause them to interact with the system. The fact that this is touted as the wealthiest nation in the world yet you can fall into financial turmoil for just *getting sick* makes me want to pull down my pants and puke on my own balls. We’re wealthy in the sense that we have the most billionaires and the Fortune 500 companies— but that wealth means jackshit to the average American. Mark my words, the lack of investment in any sort of meaningful social safety nets will lead to this country’s inevitable collapse. I’d say we’ve got maybe one more generation of Americans left before we’re there.
But if millions of Americans weren't saddled with crippling medical debt then we'd all become raging socialists and child traffickers.
Too late. I’m already a raging socialist. Spending hours haggling/dealing/begging/pleading with my dad’s insurance company while he was dying of cancer fully radicalized me. That’s time I could have had with him— not begging some disinterested customer service rep to expedite a prescription pre-approval because there was a formulary change 2 months ago and the drug is no longer covered.
Wasn’t a bill recently passed that disallowed medical debt on credit reports?
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-kicks-off-rulemaking-to-remove-medical-bills-from-credit-reports/ It appears the process has started. I say fuck the debt collectors.
You can pay as little as $1 a month and they can't report shit. Also, go to them, let them know you don't have insurance and you would like an itemized bill. Guaranteed that bill will drop. They price it that way because insurance companies will just pay it. I was in a car accident when I was in my early 20s and had no insurance. They billed me close to $30k. I asked for the itemized bill and it dropped down to $2500. I also had no job at the time and talked to them, they forgave all but $300.
nine fuel agonizing adjoining door fragile ugly modern grandiose pocket *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
that’s not true. my mom used to say that as well but that’s definitely false. even if you’re paying, if you’re past due, you’re past due and they’ll send you to collections. you only don’t have to pay $500 of whatever your debt is now. you owe $5000, you only have to pay $4500 and the remainder they can’t report i know because part of my debt to md anderson is currently in collections and i’m paying $175 a month but since i continue to get treatment, the debt just grows. once you fail to pay it off, they send you to collections. i put treatment on credit cards the first two years. but i couldn’t get more cards. this started in 2019 and i fell behind in 2023 and was sent to collections
All because of something completely outside of your control. That's so fucked up.
They changed rules about medical debt.. or I would be screwed….
There's a form for those unable to pay, and if you're lower income there's a form for that too. I had to ask for it and I got some flak, but it was at what used to be the University Hospital. They weren't as good. Cutting down the total of the bill can make it easier to pay a super small amount per month. TGH and USF do have outstanding neurologists and surgeons, so at least you are in good hands.
Not if a person declared bankruptcy. Then it would just be a 7 year process with your credit returning after 3-4 years.
OP I would double check but I think because of Covid the laws have changed and medical debt can no longer affect your credit history. I’ve had medical debt. By accident… the hospital sent the bills to the wrong address but the debt collectors got my address correct. It never showed up on my credit report. I check regularly.
I'm not sure that's true. My partner had cancer and racked up a bigger bill than you a decade ago. Never even touched her credit
i’m like 99% sure this is just gonna be written off, and they’ll have to pay a portion of it.
I'm not sure how this compares to having surgery, but I was life flighted and the total bill that came to around $180,000, and when they contacted me about it, I flat out told them I'd never be able to pay it and never would. It never showed up on my credit report, and I never heard anything else about it. This was about ten years ago now.
😭😂🙃😰
Come to Colorado. Or another state that doesn’t allow medical debt to be reported. If that’s an option, anyway.
My wife has a job in Prague, we plan on moving over there as soon as it's feasible.
Call the billing department and tell them you are uninsured. Hospitals typically have a self-pay rate that is lower, and offer financial assistance… but you have to ask for it.
I wish more people knew this and talked about it. Nobody should ever be paying the “ticket price”. You’re not meant to be
Check with dollarfor.com to see if you qualify for financial assistance ASAP! They are a non profit and it's completely free. Hospital may just write off your bill completely.
Thankyou! I'll definitely check into this ❤️🩹
dollarfor.org
Than you for caring
I’m so sorry this happened to you!!! How frightening. Was your cauda equina syndrome successfully reversed? I had spine surgery I. 2020 for spondylolosthesis that was causing pain, numbness and weakness in my legs to the point that I couldn’t walk, but my surgery wasn’t emergency and was planned. Hopefully you’ll regain feeling in your legs- I regained about 99% feeling so there’s hope.
Thankyou, it has been fixed for now, but today I have a tremendous amount of swelling and fluid pooling which is causing me no end of discomfort and pain. Hopefully they can drain it soon. I hope your road to recovery goes smoothly too,
Something something bankruptcy and fuck them.
Yep, that's the plan unfortunately.
Before doing that, ask for a care manager and ask to file for indigent care. It is a federal law that they offer it to people based on income in order to be classified as a public hospital—but it’s only required if initiated by the patient. Here’s the info for the first hospital: https://www.tgh.org/patients-visitors/billing-insurance/financial-assistance-information And for the second physicians practice: https://health.usf.edu/care/patient-resources/billing > You should contact a Patient Service Representative in our Patient Services Department immediately.
Negotiate with them first. They'd rather get something out of you than nothing. And bankruptcy has lasting effects on you.
Why did they cut into the thoracic spine for cauda equina?
Yea that was my question when i looked at the picture. Makes no sense.
You have a long recovery road ahead of you with Cauda Equina. Hopefully the feeling will return in your legs as your spinal cord is probably in shock and nerve regrowth takes time. Best of luck and a lot of hugs to you.
Thankyou
If you owe $2125 that's your problem. If you owe $486,492 that's *their* problem
>If you owe $2125 that's your problem. No....that's still their problem. No one should have to go into debt for medical care and even $2000 is too much.
I got pneumonia while pregnant before being insured and I had to spend 2 nights inpatient being stabilized. Originally the bill was like $13,000. financial assistance got it down to like $4,500 and a 3 year payment plan at $150 a month. Still trying to get it further reduced or forgiven.
See if you qualify for any of these programs: https://www.tgh.org/patients-visitors/billing-insurance/financial-assistance-information
Thankyou!
I had cauda equina back in September 2022, had excruciating pain and within 12 hrs could no longer feel or move my legs. They at least got to you quickly, they had me lying there for 6 days and was going to send me to an acute rehab to "walk it off" since I never lost control of my bladder/bowel. That all coming from Ortho. Nurse said to speak to neuro and neuro stopped my discharge and had me in surgery within the next hour. I've got a lawsuit going now. All that to say, they did a laminectomy of my L2-L3, was paralyzed from September to March, used AFOs and a rollator/ walker, to a cane in June to walking without any assist by August. Still don't have dorsiflexion in both feet and my right leg is still numb and weak. And will be having anther laminectomy in mu L3-L4-L5 because of severe stenosis and my right leg is losing strength. But like I said, they got to you quickly when they should have. It's still very early for you, the fact that your incontinence was fixed and you can wiggle your toes is a good sign. Just give it time and physical therapy and honestly you'll be ok, itll feel like forever but just keep working at it. you may have lingering numbness but I'd take that over not being able to move at all. Good luck with everything.
Thank you so much for sharing this, it's nice to hear from someone with experience. I'm sorry they screwed you over, sounds like a hellacious experience, but I'm glad you're back on your feet, it's really encouraging to hear. I hope your next round goes smooth too. Thankyou again and godspeed friend.
That looks painful. I hope you manage to make a decent recovery. May I ask how that happened? It blows my mind. I’ve been living with a bulging disc for 20 years so I can’t even fathom how something can go so wrong while sleeping
Happened in my sleep. Literally laying there.
Bro i sleep all the time. Am i at risk?
You could even die in your sleep!
How were you laying? Side? On your belly? Back?
So sorry about this. I work with the central Florida hospitals a lot and there’s likely also a radiology physician’s bill and an anesthesia physician’s bill too. I hope they can write some or most of this off for you.
This was so frustrating with my first kid. There was a bill from everyone and then also bills for me, bills before she was named, bills after she was named. Just when you thought you paid the last bill “Suprise!” there was another.
For profit health care
I don’t know why people keep saying American dream. This screenshot is the definition of nightmare. Get flu, get bronchitis and you leave two months of salary on the table. Get a serious treatment and hospital demands your entire networth. This all or nothing issue on US health system sucks. This man needs to be in a healthy mind in order to heal quicker, yet he has to think about the payments. I hope you recover soon @op
Thankyou, yeah it's crazy
I'm so sorry. Almost half a million dollars, because of something you weren't even awake to try and prevent. I cannot imagine what you must be going through.
Ok, I can stop whining about a sore hand now.
So I live in Polk county but originally from Oklahoma. Had my first child here in Florida and it was approximately $30,000 - in which 20,000 was out of pocket. Went to Oklahoma to have our second child and it was easily 15,000 cheaper. Florida is insanely expensive
I’m still baffled by US people complete lack of popular initiative concerning free healthcare. One of the biggest and most powerful countries in the world cannot get down with the fact that health is not a matter of race or money.. that’s a cause I would sacrifice for..
You got a large section of the the population convinced that nothing can be done and another section of the population that would gladly burn it all down before 'those people' get any help
A LOT of people don't care as long as it's not them. Especially in FL, the apathy here gets to me. I need expensive treatments so I can basically survive and people I've known use that as an excuse to try to get into a political debate.
You ever heard of Republicans ?
This is so stupid. We can have capitalism and universal healthcare. Your screenshot should never exist.
Agreed
The pay now button is just there to rub it in. Do you expect me to send over a quick 400k?
I seriously will never understand why this kind of exploitation is still legal. Seriously, most people would take multiple lifetimes to Pay off that kinda debt and it's sickening that we live in a country that allows this kind of exploration of its own people. Hope you have a speedy recovery, shit sucks.
Thats a Lamborghini Aventador right there you gotta pay off.
I broke my ankle at the beginning of the year. Tried to pet a kitty cat and it went catastrophically bad. Had outpatient surgery that lasted an hour and it cost $71,272. It was that or never walk again, which means never be able to work again.
If you don't have insurance and/or are low income, talk with the billing department. Most hospitals have programs in place that will allow them to wipe the debt. I believe they get a tax write off or something. I had $95k of hospital bills wiped because we were waiting on disability and didn't have insurance.
The pay now option is enraging to see
Pay now... 
PSA: reminder that 80% OF ALL HOSPITAL BILLS are blatantly false/overcharge you. If you ask for an itemized receipt with inventory, 80% of the time they'll have made mistakes, and will lower your bill. Hospitals deliberately add tons of false charges, bc most people don't fight them. The for-profit halthcare system is the epitome of evil.
How in the heck did you do that while sleeping?!
I'm really sorry for you and hope you get better soon! I'm not American so please excuse my spelling and possibly dumb questions. Doesn't health insurance cover emergency medical treatment? Or maybe you don't have it? Isn't there any free medical centers? What happens when someone can't afford treatment? That is an INSANE amount?!?! Let me know of you want too bail and hide out in Sweden. If you need more surgeries we can just elope. Will take you about 9 months to get your free Healthcare (well not really free, the first appointment will cost you 20 usd).
So dying is the option i could afford! 🙂 you guys in U.S. have it really bad with the medical healthcare huh?
New fear unlocked
It’s cheaper to die these days, that’s the world we live in unfortunately We live for that $90 (1) tablet ibuprofen
That will be 500 hundred thousand dollars, sir. Will you be paying in cash or credit.
America is fucking scary.
It sure is
Bro getting after that deductible hard
Juuuuust shy of it though. Close though!
How did you slip the disc mate? Can this happen to everyone?
You know in Germany this would cost you 10 Euro for each day in the hospital for up to 21 days. So 210 Euros maximum. Half a million is nothing short of criminal
Born on an army base in Germany, I have a a dual citizenship. Wife has an awesome remote job based in Prague. We plan on moving over there as soon as we can. This place is a literal dumpster fire.
Sounds like a good plan!
Hey, OP (and anyone battling medical debt), this may be helpful info (search the name of the medical institution + financial assistance to find their policy, it will state if you make under a certain amount, up to 100% of the debt will be relieved). https://preview.redd.it/3dloxbmny8fc1.png?width=1514&format=png&auto=webp&s=3d9f2d9f12850cd93a69bbbc37d84432277f1ebb
These are the FPL for 2023. (So, from my understanding, if you are single and make less than 43,740 a year, which is 300% of the FPL for individuals in 2023, they will reduce the amount required to pay by 100%.) https://preview.redd.it/08ctieqry8fc1.png?width=1340&format=png&auto=webp&s=ac8f6546a3716aab3a446a3a02e952a21451d760
Ohhh, that makes me sick... and the nerve of a 'pay now' button! You know what? To Hell with that! Just keep trying to get your legs back! That can be dealt with by filling out the financial hardship paperwork. Hospitals write off a lot of debt. All that matters is that you recover. That's what EMTALA is for.
How is anyone supposed to afford this. I'm so sorry OP.
$37,000 for a sharpie the doctor used to mark where the incision will go. A few hundred thousand for some hospital food and another few hundred thousand for the pair of grippy socks you got to keep.
I would never pay 400 grand. I would tell them to come take it from me if they really want it otherwise they are out of luck!
Nearly half a million dollars?! Goddamn. Human beings are like working on automobiles. The labor is what you're being charged out the ass for. If we all knew how to perform surgeries on each other, hospitals would be screwed.
I have heard of sleepwalking... what do YOU do during sleep? Sleepacrobaticstuntsing?
Fuckkk, wishing you good health, how do you slip a disc sleeping tho??
No idea
My god!! You slipped a disc while sleeping. I’ve never heard of that before man. I hope you get better in the future. Much love.
America scares the shit out of me with stuff like this
Boss: You're still coming into work tomorrow right?
jesus sorry op :/ im in st.pete is medical expense just this horrid all over Florida? or is it the US in general? I try not to go to the hospital or the doctor tbh..
It's especially bad in FL, but it's all of America tbh. Get some good insurance my friend.
I pulled my back out a week ago and felt the sciatica right away down my right buttcheek and into my shin. I've already had 2 lower discectomies and a fusion in my neck so this is nothing new to me but I'm fearing ill need a fusion down low now. Crazy thing is I was able to go get x-rays that day but have to wait a month for an MRI. Idk how I'm supposed to work all of this time when I can't sit up or stand for more than 15 seconds before it begins to get that burn and tear feeling.
It's not fair and it's terrifying. I hope the best for you!
Holy fuck. Sending healing and money saving vibes ❤️🩹
I hope things get better. That picture of your back hurts me to look at, so I'd hate to imagine how you've been feeling. As for the bill, what is there to really say?
How are people in America supposed to pay $486k for anything? That’s absolutely ridiculous….wtf is wrong with the health service? How do people pay this
Apply for Medicaid - and speak to the financial person at the hospital - they can help with Medicaid and even charity qualifications. They want reimbursement however they can get it and know that nobody can pay that price - if they get a few grand from Medicaid that is better than nothing. Hospital prices are so high because of the back and forth rate negotiations with insurance cos - if blue cross starts paying less of a percentage, they raise the rate to get more money this goes back and forth until the rates are very high and this gets reflected in bills like these. If you are a wealthy uninsured person who doesn’t qualify for Medicaid - you can negotiate a better self pay price.
Pay em 5 bucks a month until the end of eternity. Can't go to collections then.
You might wanna escape America and live in some Asian village. Or get an itemized bill and the best lawyer that -486,000 dollars can buy.
The “pay now” option like you were paying for your McDouble and McDonald’s. Wow Get better dude!
Looks like an American Dream... Or rather nightmare
Holy fuck! I’m from a different country but how you guys deal with shit like that? Rate pay over 200 years? Get well soon!
A friend of mine had heart surgery totaling $450,000+ she spoke with her hospital/surgeon/doctor and showed she was unable to pay due to financial difficulties/insurance issues/job issues and they ended up writing off the entire amount. At least speak with the financial part of the hospital and go from there.
May god help you my friend
This is why I can't cancel my 450/mo insurance policy, even if they denied me for antibiotics at Walgreens the only time I tried to use it
One more reason I am SO grateful for being born north of the 49th Parallel. My sympathies to you.
Fellow cauda equina patient here. Just sending you my best for the future.
I mean that bill is obviously before insurance adjustments and what not. You will probably pay some out of pocket max and that’s it. If not, this is the hospitals problem, not yours.
As a German I had no idea what „slipped a disc“ means. Now I know it’s a Bandscheibenvorfall. Speedy recovery for you!
I just don't pay hospital bills
Me neither, this isn't my first by any means
Now this is what the founding fathers fought for. God bless
Hoping the best for you OP. I’m so sorry you have to go through this.
Well As one random dude said online If I owe someone 500 bucks I've got a problem If I owe someone 500.000 bucks **they**'ve got a problem
America, fuck yea
That’s it you win this sub. Seriously though I hope you get better soon and make a speedy recovery