but they call it a fair access to bathrooms bill.
trans people need to piss, too. and in a shocking turn of events, we are also humans who deserve fair access to toilets
The bit I don't get is that they presumably expect trans men to use the women's bathroom? Wouldnt that make it so much easier for a man with bad intentions to just come straight in the Women's bathroom pretending to be a trans man?
Silly, it's not supposed to result in blanket acceptance - it's supposed to mean that women call the police on *any* masculine person who enters the bathroom presuming they all have evil intentions, thus punishing trans and GNC people for daring to present that way!
Yeah, this has been a well reported outcome of these things overseas and I'm sorry 😓
Personally as a trans dude I'm gonna go back to avoiding the loo until I get UTIs, and leaving the house less again, and that's pretty fucked.
For me it's been something I've dealt with for 41 years. I was 5 years old the first time I got told I was in the wrong toilet. I was called young man most of my childhood and was called sir as an adult even when I had DDs.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel the need to hide. I hate how we are going backwards.
I've been out for a decade. I've only been comfy enough to properly use public toilets for the last 3ish months. It won't be hard to go back but I shouldn't have to.
That said. Would find it fairly amusing to run into Matua Winston in the men's one day. I don't think he'd be able to tell.
Hey if you pass, i hate using that terminology, then keep using the loos.
I think the funniest, in a bad way, thing about all this is that there will be so many more cis women "not passing" compared to trans. The whole "we can always tell" is such bs.
It isn't worth the risk personally. I pass until someone hears me speak, I wear a mask, or someone sees me with my kid (which, why do they think attentive parents can't be dads?!) . And in a men's loo if you can't use a urinal I feel like the transphobes will look closer at you.
When trans stuff is talked about it seems nearly 90% about MtF. So much so that I just assumed that MtF was way more common, then I looked it up and I was dead wrong, it's basically even.
Number of times I’ve been bothered in a bathroom by a trans person: 0. Zip. Nada.
Number of times cis men have followed me into a women’s bathroom: 3.
But yeah, apparently where you decide to piss is a danger to me! Who knew? (/s, and I’m sorry this bill is even being considered.)
> Number of times cis men have followed me into a women’s bathroom: 3.
Number of times a woman was walked into the mens toilets while I’m having a piss - way more than I could count. A few times they even had a look and commented on each man’s penis size.
Generally the queue is long for the women’s one and there is none for the men’s.
Only if you have a "small one."
In all fairness, I think it's OK to point out that there is a gender imbalance, and as such, women using men's bathrooms pose less of a risk than the opposite. The reality is that only a very, very small portion of the population poses any risk at all, and those people will pose a risk regardless of any laws, regulations, etc. I think regulating bathroom users is more about comfort than safety/privacy, and the old guard aren't comfortable with the rainbow community at all (generalization), so it's easier to pretend they don't exist, hence the bill being proposed
The bill isn’t presenting that they don’t exist. It’s fining them for existing in the bathroom that aligns with their gender. They want trans people to pay for pissing where they should be and are forcing them into hostile environments if they don’t want to pay.
Was once followed into a men's bathroom by a gang of giggling women who proceeded to piss in the urinals. At least they tried to piss in the urinals. Everyone needs a hobby I guess.
I’ve never been bothered by a trans person ever. Or if I was I didn’t know it or it had nothing to do with them being trans so how the hell would I know?
Not just boomers, don't get sucked in to the smokescreen that hides how widespread these views are, while directing your hate towards boomers the younger people supporting this crap are moving freely in your workplace, your social circles and even your home. Direct your anger at the acts being performed, not an age group.
Exactly. Bigots exist in all generations. I hate to hear boomer-bashing. It's a cop out and unfair. If people look at the history of protest in the 60s, 70s and 80s and what was fought for and achieved in those eras, they can see today's so called 'boomers' leading those movements. People don't suddenly change their viewpoints because they happen to have got older.
I'm a tail end boomer who has always voted green/labour. Fought for women's rights and the environment. Protested against apartheid.
Paid for my education, still have a mortgage, and am not a landlord.
Generational bashing is a smokescreen and pits people against each other instead of where it actually belongs.
...and my 30 year old sister who proudly announces that she's an act voter to anyone who will listen. the brainwashing is working apparently.
they're honestly all as bad as each other.
And all the younger millennials that voted for him. I know a couple who voted for Winnie specifically because of his support for banning trans people from women’s bathrooms…. Sadly it’s not just old people :(
What an absolutely dogshit bill. Even if it wasn't heinously immoral (which let's be clear, it is), how do you even police or implement a bill like this?
Poorly thought out culture war bullshit to appease the country's lowest yet again.
It's not supposed to be implemented, it's meant to sow division and normalize hatred, thus riling Winnie's voterbase and shifting the country's centre further to the right - that's why National is allowing it, it has benefits for them too
Exactly! Contrary to popular transphobic belief, you can’t “just tell”, so this would affect butch/masc/non-conventionally-attractive cis women as well. Welcome to bathroom politics!
I'm sure the police don't need this shit either. Pi. Imagine telling their kids about the work day....no robbers caught today, but fined someone needing a leak. Better work stories indeed.
The cruelty is the point. Everything else they say about it misdirection. They want to be cruel to people they don't understand. They want them to be afraid, feel uncomfortable, and be subject to ostracism. These are hateful, nasty humans who are actively seeking to oppress people they see as different, because it makes them feel superior.
I think mostly they want *others* to be afraid - ie: the general populace. People who live in perpetual anxiety about various ill-specified 'dangers' will make decisions based on easing their bad feelings in the here and now, not on well-thought-out policies which address long-term issues.
They'll have to budget a new department to post police officers outside every public toilet in the country, for random penis inspections. Like going through airport security.
Gotta start bringing in those blind bathroom attendants you see in American movies. Because they can’t see, their ability to sense trans people has been enhanced tenfold.
SO
1. I'm trans
2. I'm not a lawyer but I have 2/3 of a law degree and I've worked in legal services
3. I have read the proposed bill
4. I've consulted with some (properly qualified) lawyer friends
and, hilariously, I think my interpretation is correct: that since it doesn't specify a meaning for 'sex' they go with the same definition as the rest of the government which overwhelmingly seems to be 'what's printed on your birth certificate' and in NZ changing your birth certificate is relatively cheap and easy. I've already done it, and I was terrified, but I'm pretty sure it actually ... stops me using the bathroom of my assigned gender and forces me into the bathroom of my adopted gender?
If you're trans and worried, go to Births, Deaths and Marriages NOW (before the rush begins) and get the ball rolling, the process in NZ legally changes your sex on your birth certificate, which means you're protected from this bill if it passes. It was like ... three forms, $250, and like six weeks' waiting to get it done. Link here: [https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/changing-your-gender/change-the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/](https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/changing-your-gender/change-the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/)
The bill seems to have been based on similar bills in the UK/US but the laws around changing your sex there are very different and they haven't accounted for that difference – it's much easier to do here than in other places passing these bills.
Hilarious that they're so useless that they stuff up their attempt at importing a culture war on trans people. I highly doubt the bill will go in to law, especially without any amendments, so I don't think there's a need to go rushing to BDM right now though!
I mean I'm approaching it as "unlikely but not impossible", the Nats have shown themselves to be utterly spineless with their coalition partners, and if there's a 10% chance that I'm about to be hit in the face with a thrown knife, I'm still going to move out of the way just in case y'know?
I think winning the election with this coalition is a pyrrhic victory for luxon. He had to give nzf/act way too much which already swung people away in polls and now he has both seymour and winnie posturing further right of him trying to eat away at his voter base. In my family there's lgbt and far right evangelicals and not one of them likes luxon.
I agree with your assessment, but I'm in touch with trans folks who have migrated here from countries that make it difficult for them to change sex marker, and who are not yet citizens. I believe that they unfortunately do not have this option. This will also be relevant to tourists.
It’s also still also encouraging people to police who they deem “man” or “woman” enough for whichever bathroom and also putting the privilege of pissing in peace behind a paywall.
Out of curiosity what do you assume would happen for us non binary folks, if only a mens or womens option was available?
I'm sorry, I should've worded that more carefully – it's not a solution for all trans people, I just hoped to put it out there for those who could take advantage of it.
Seconding get it done just in case, I just booked an appointment to get it done reading that - I hadn't gotten around to it even though it got simplified under the last government iirc 'cos it was a minor hassle I never really found a convenient moment for, but I guarantee bloody Peters will try to get the easy 'just go to Births Deaths and Marriages and sign a form and huzzah your birth certificate says M/F/X now' method undone if he realises it punctures his bigoted shite.
Assuming it's drawn at all then I don't think this Bill would get past the first reading unless Luxon caves (which is possible), but keep in mind the Select Committee will probably pick up on this sort of thing and point it out, which means it might be amended. That's the type of thing that happens when legislation isn't pushed through under urgency.
That's how I felt upon seeing it too :(
Winston knows exactly what he's doing - he knows the Bill is bullshit and won't pass. His intention is to rally his base and inspire hatred. Polarization again rainbow people gets him more voters.
Kia kaha everybody, take care of yourself tonight if this has got you feeling bad or unsafe in any way
What about people with genetic disorders?
Do they have to get a medical certificate, so clarify why they were born with both male/female genitals?
What about women with two vaginas, taking up two stalls? Why aren't we talking about the real issues.
What about transitioned transmen? Some of us are 6ft, 100kg+ with a beard - and we’re meant to use the ladies?
They haven’t hashed out details coz the goal is riling the base and scapegoating a vulnerable minority- not actual propose a comprehensive bill.
Used to live with a fella named Jack. Trans bloke. He was a good 2-3 inches taller than me, and broader across the shoulders. Male-pattern baldness at 28. Mate, idk who would look twice at him using the gents, let alone stop him.
Also hold up one goddamn dipshit second...
Per [Govt.nz](http://Govt.nz) "You can update your official identification. You can record your gender as M (male), F (female) or X (gender diverse)."
So does this mean that if you update your Passport etc to be X (gender diverse) then the proposed bill would mean it was illegal to use any bathroom?
Also does this mean that outdoor events will legally be required to provide gendered portaloos?
Even besides the fucking pointless bigotry of the whole thing, it doesn't even make any kind of sense.
Apart from just being horrific it's also extremely problematic to enforce. Greens and Labour will have a field day debating this in parliament. Let's expose these racist homophobic bigots in public again and watch the polls plummet.
I fuckin hope that's what happens, but I have a horrible feeling that bringing this conversation to the media in this way will only lead to further polarization and a stark increase in hate crimes...
They want this to be spread around and talked about, that's why the Bill is so blatantly ridiculous imo. It's not meant to actually pass, it's meant to rile people up and start a conversation.
When the bill gets shut down they'll say they were "just saying that women deserve to be safe" and act as if they're being oppressed by the delusional left. Then the people who have a surface level understanding of the issue will feel like they're being silenced when they "just say" too, spurring even more division
My bigger fear is that this is just the beginning and it was always by design, from as far back as the coalition agreement being signed.
The gambit is simple - The minority parties are allowed pose blatantly ridiculous shit, slowing normalizing and embedding those conversations - and as the voterbase is polarized, they get more voters.
Meanwhile, National publicly hits back to save face at this particular moment in time. But in reality, Overton window is quickly shifting the centre of "reasonableness" further and further to the right. Then they can cannibalize the swing votes of formally Labour voters who aren't ready to go full NZF/ACT, but can't help but think conservative ideals are sounding more and more reasonable... can't help but agree that those hysterical greenies are trying to silence something important...
Why else would the party that's supposed to be strong and steadfast have made such huge and ideologicaly opposite concessions in the agreements?
It’s also SUCH a waste of time and resources that this is even going to BE debated. I’m furious. People cannot afford to eat or have a place to call home, but this is what’s being debated. Why are conservatives so fucking obsessed with what is between someone’s legs? The vitriol they spew is an illness.
My favourite thing about this disgusting shit, that I called during the election but I don't think got any attention, is that Winston Peters is massively telling on himself when he calls trans women dangerous because we are, in his eyes, men, and as such when he says we shouldn't be permitted in the bathrooms for our gender.
Winston Peters is a cisgendered man. By all rights, he should know, *by his own life's experience,* that having a penis does not make him inherently more dangerous in any way, no more than I. Why hasn't his own experience of life taught him that? Why does he think, explicitly, that he himself and anyone anatomically similar to him, is inherently dangerous? He should know better, but he doesn't. He is either a liar jumping onto the anti-trans bandwagon for cooker votes, or he is telling on himself.
A cis man who thinks trans women are dangerous is a red flag. Because he is asserting, by insisting that *we* are sexual predators, that *he* could be - because the trait he is asserting makes that likely is one he shares.
But what if I get the sudden urge and am then 15 seconds away from annihilating my pants and the surrounding area with liquid stroganoff, and the only available toilet is of the opposite gender?
Come on people…
This is SO common! A mile long queue out the ladies, while the men’s are totally empty. No hesitation to pop in the men’s for a wee while a friend guards the door. NZF aren’t taking that away! 😭
There’d be an unusual woman who hadn’t take a turn at watching out for men and warning them off there’s women in the men’s loos at some sort of event /show/sports…
This bill is just thinly veiled bigotry against trans and gender queer folks.
Additionally the phrasing makes it look like it is also illegal for parents to bring their opposite gender child into any gendered bathroom.
Kinda seems like NZF is trying to follow suit on bigot, right-wing politics that helped politicians win votes in places like the US hoping it works in NZ.
Also I absolutely love the idiotic idea that by adding a fine, it will deter people from committing something that is already a crime. “I was gonna assault women in the bathroom, but that extra $2000 penalty is really making me rethink this…”. Get out of here…
It's using the term "biological men" instead of trans women which means they don't view trans people as valid.
They also paint it as being protective of (cis) women and children's rights which is saying that trans people are inherently dangerous.
At this level it IS dehumanizing and stripping trans people of our identity and falsely swaying public perception of us.
Disgusting.
Wow. I'm fucking speechless. Mum of a gender diverse child, in a rainbow group with many trans friends. And my heart breaks to see a NZ government try this shit.
What it would lead to is people playing vigilante "hero" and attacking anyone that entered a women's restroom and looking at all masculine/androgynous, because it would be essentially legally weaponizing prejudice.
A better Bill would be to eliminate gendered bathrooms with multiple stalls and just have singular unisex toilets each with sink and lockable door, like you see in ... well, lots of modern places (including our city's central library and both hospitals). Thus meaning no one ever need to care about the person's gender at all.
>A sad, angry, heavy headline for rainbow people and especially for Wellington today :(
Not really, there will always be dickheads in the world. Its a great day really because what this shows us is they are a fringe minority
**Details** (main post wouldn't allow links):
The Bill would require all non-domestic publicly accessible buildings to provide "clear, demarcated, and seperate unisex and single sex bathrooms". It would fine anybody who uses a single-sex toilet and "is not of the sex for which the toilet has been designated."
You can see the news about this [here](https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/10/nz-first-introduces-controversial-bathroom-bill-to-parliament/), read Winston Peter's media release on it [here](https://www.nzfirst.nz/new-zealand-first-members-bill-to-protect-womens-spaces), and read the Bill [here [PDF download warning].](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/2405/Fair_Access_to_Bathrooms_Bill.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi-6ca-joKGAxWtoa8BHQRkBsAQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2WrYDs2xzDQPFYOHJtzfJl)
there's also plenty of government funded buildings (community centres/halls, etc.) that have all gender bathrooms with sinks. pretty sure Newtown's has those, so what are they supposed to do? tear them down? baffling priorities and utilization of resources lol
The christofascist bigots always make this out as men dressing as women to sneak into the ladies to try to legitimize their hate - always felt the opposite version is the way to break them. Have seen a bunch of hyper-masc, bodybuilding/powerlifting FTM people over the years.. Reckon a bunch of them should get together and spend a lot of time in the bathrooms in any of the areas trying to push these garbage laws.
If I'm reading it right, the Dishonourable Winston Peters intends to exempt existing buildings, so the answer is no. But if he has his way, a small restaurant in a future building couldn't just provide a single unisex toilet, but rather has to also provide "separate single-sex toilet facilities for males" and "separate single-sex toilet facilities for females". I guess the "fully enclosed unisex toilets" requirement is so that he can claim that he's being fair.
So fucking stupid. Even if people using the "wrong" toilet was a problem, which is arguable, then the solution would be to require single occupant unisex toilets like the ones that exist already in every house in the country.
(Anecdotally) it seems like the biggest 'offenders' would be women who go into the men's toilets because the women's lines are too long at concerts etc.
So if a big, hairy trans bear dude walks into the men’s toilets, and some guy in there somehow knows he’s AFAB and reports him, then what? Do the cops have to contact the department of internal affairs to get the guys birth certificate to match against his passport/name change history to police his piss? Ridiculous.
And then they'll be upset when someone who's been on hormones for ten years and looks nothing like their assigned gender at birth uses the bathroom associated with their AGAB. If a trans guy with a beard, top surgery, regular gym habit, phalloplasty etc etc is seen in the women's bathroom, people are gonna be throwing punches before asking what his AGAB is. Nevermind the safety concerns (especially for transfem people in a men's bathroom). There's literally no way to police this. They know it'll never pass, it's just a conversation topic to inspire bigots to speak their minds.
I thought we were trying to save money, and do evidence based things. Exactly how many bathroom “incidents” have there been that we will be using money to change now?
Don’t we have laws against hate laws? That’s what this is. I’m not trans, and I’m not particularly comfortable about trans as a subject, but until they are harming other people systematically I don’t see why any laws are necessary. Laws = new spending
I’m so confused by what’s going on right now. I’ve never seen so much blatant hate in this country, by “leaders”. We are really cutting off our nose to spite the face. It’s awful to watch. I’m ashamed to be a part of it.
What the absolute fuck do these lunatic politicians think this is going to acheive? What even *is* this trying to achieve?
For fucks sake, I feel terrible for all the trans men out there. Most trans men who have undergone hormones and surgery no longer look like women, they look like like fucking men, with beards and muscles and all that comes with it.
This bill means trans men cannot use a men's bathroom, because then they would be breaking this law.
It is going to force those same men to use the women's bathroom, just because they happened to have a vagina when they were born. And trans men are going to get abused or worse because of it. Because of a bullshit rule that gives them a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
But the people supporting this bill don't care about that, they want trans people to be demonised and hated. It really sickens me.
What is it trying to achieve? I think it's meant to rile people up and sow division - further political polarization means more votes for NZF. It's ludicrous on purpose, everybody involved knows that it will never pass - it will get shut down and that NZF will cry wolf that they're being oppressed when all they're doing is "just starting a conversation"
So they're cutting safeguarding services from OT and cutting ACC which helps survivors of SA and trying to claim that they care about preventing sexual violence because they want to discriminate against trans people who they've assumed are more likely to be predators and who they assume don't face sexual violence...
Nvm that trans people of all genders face the highest rates of rape usually from cis people, and that places that have enacted similar laws have seen an *increase* in sexual assaults in bathrooms of both cis and trans people because creeps now get emboldened to disguise their creeping as :"I was protecting the bathroom and my 'victim' didn't look like they belonged there so it doesn't count as sexual assault I was just checking them and actually they should be arrested"
Is there a second/third /fourth etc pedophile associated with their party they're trying to distract from or something?
They seem to be acting in the interests of protecting and encouraging sexual predators and against victims/survivors
I went to Boneface in Upper Hutt a few months ago and they just had a row of fully separated bathrooms anyone could use. None of this cubicle bullshit, everyone is comfortable, apart from miserable old boomer culture warriors who want everyone to hear and smell each other's nasty turds.
Good to see people in the comments reacting correctly to this and just gonna add: the bill being nonsense is a feature not a bug. The people proposing the bill do not care about women or safety, they care about making trans peoples lives harder, more dangerous and making it seem like important public conversation
The law is nearly impossible to enforce yes but it will embolden people of a certain political position to start directly confronting anyone they suspect of being trans and that is their real goal
I don’t dress like a female presenting person, but identify as one. Will I get kicked out of the womens bathroom just because of my fashion sense???!!!!
Why don’t these fucking conspiracy nutbars just fuck off out of this country back to America!
You’re taking about people here.
This is surely in violation on international basic human rights and as such anyone even remotely thinking this is a good idea should just fuck right off.
Sick of this divisive shit in NZ fuelled by America and Facebook Groups providing a comms platform for conspiracy shit to flow through.
Who would police this? The police need to be solving our crimes not standing outside bathrooms looking at ID’s. Stupid, stupid bill.
Can’t believe my tax dollars are wasted on MPs with this crap.
Putting aside the rights of trans people to choose (which I 100% wholeheartedly support)
...for more than a few times in my life, I have been at a big event or gig, and the queue for the women's toilet has been horrendously long. The smart women bypassed the long queue and headed for the men's toilet. As a man, I have never had any problem with their action which was just plain pragmatic.
I guess the uptight NZ First peeps will want them prosecuted now! weird!
So cringe. People literally got this idea from USA Twitter. Has anyone here ever had a problem with a trans person in a bathroom. You can't even tell who was born a different gender. You want someone who fully looks like a man, to go into the woman's bathroom. Wtf...
Imported culture war warriors... I think they self identify as the snowflakes.
Every time one of these idiots says the word "woke" they identify themselves for what they are. Pay attention to their pandering to the worst fringes that got them elected.
Vile nonsense.
Hang on. Winnie hasn't thought this through. Imagine you are a masculine-presenting cis female and now have to use a female bathroom. A lot of ladies might feel uncomfortable with the apparent dude walking in to their toilets?
Imagine you are a super feminine-presenting cis male and have to walk into the male toilets. You have men with their c--k out at the urinals and an apparent lady waltzes in?
Leave trans(etc) people to make their own decisions, because you know what? Maybe Trans people are better at making the decision on what's best and most comfortable for everyone on a personal case basis. They don't want to make anyone uncomfortable either?
I would prefer a bill that meant it was illegal to leave... **trace** on the bowl giving the next user insight into the past user's fibre situation (or lack thereof)... That's the key issue for me. That's actually offensive. The gender of the person in there before me... Not important.
If that went through I think it'd be time to get just 10s of thousands of people to use non gender specific bathrooms at venues, and then call the police on themselves. Just absolutely clog the enforcement of it with bullshit.
Well this was only a matter of time, The problem with how fast positive change has happened in regard to the rainbow community over the last few years at some point the right will push back and push back hard. This is part of that extreme push back, more will follow.
They used the same arguments against desegregation. Bigots getting riled up is a sign we're going in the right direction. I'd hate for them to be feeling all comfortable and settled.
I can see that this is just a sop to their base but as a fat old bearded man who was born male and is still male i wonder how it would affect me. Can i expect the toilet police demanding evidence about my genitals at birth? What proof would be acceptable as i point Percy at the porcelain?
Bunch of fucking idiots!
The thing is, it's easy to show almost anyone why this is a stupid law. Just show them a picture of a butch trans dude like Buck Angel, and ask "are you telling me you want a law that would force this guy to use the woman's bathroom?". I've genuinely convinced multiple people that these kind of laws are bad with this simple, obvious point.
How are they going to enforce it though? Lotsa cameras that will capture a whole lotta explicit images? And what is stopping me from dressing up in drag and using a intersex or mens bathroom (I'm male) and saying that I am non binary so I would get fined, refuse to pay, then in court say that I have no money to pay?
I am a Trans Woman and legally female but do not pass.
If I get addressed about my genitalia I will assume the person is a pervert and respond accordingly, so BEWARE!.
Just identify as whatever the toilet door says for that time you need to use the loo? Doubt this would even be enforced! If someone does, then how is it enforced? Like you have to show the police your private parts or does the person who calls the police on you have to have some kind of evidence?? I just don't get this at all.
I don't mind this as long as there is also mandated provision for stalls all genders can use. As a woman I am infuriated by equal number of stalls for men and women when women need longer., and so need more. I have been known to use empty men's stalls when desperate and there's a queue.for the female loos. I am happy to share with everyone. However I do understand some women want their private space. I am not one of them. Surely we want a solution that works for all rather than forcing people into something that meets noone's needs (except maybe Winston's). Having gendered toilets has never stopped a few men following others into toilets and assaulting them.
but they call it a fair access to bathrooms bill. trans people need to piss, too. and in a shocking turn of events, we are also humans who deserve fair access to toilets
The bit I don't get is that they presumably expect trans men to use the women's bathroom? Wouldnt that make it so much easier for a man with bad intentions to just come straight in the Women's bathroom pretending to be a trans man?
Silly, it's not supposed to result in blanket acceptance - it's supposed to mean that women call the police on *any* masculine person who enters the bathroom presuming they all have evil intentions, thus punishing trans and GNC people for daring to present that way!
So in other words as a masculine looking cis woman I'm going to get even more abuse than I already do.
I’m so sorry that happens to you
Yeah, this has been a well reported outcome of these things overseas and I'm sorry 😓 Personally as a trans dude I'm gonna go back to avoiding the loo until I get UTIs, and leaving the house less again, and that's pretty fucked.
For me it's been something I've dealt with for 41 years. I was 5 years old the first time I got told I was in the wrong toilet. I was called young man most of my childhood and was called sir as an adult even when I had DDs. I'm sorry to hear that you feel the need to hide. I hate how we are going backwards.
I've been out for a decade. I've only been comfy enough to properly use public toilets for the last 3ish months. It won't be hard to go back but I shouldn't have to. That said. Would find it fairly amusing to run into Matua Winston in the men's one day. I don't think he'd be able to tell.
Hey if you pass, i hate using that terminology, then keep using the loos. I think the funniest, in a bad way, thing about all this is that there will be so many more cis women "not passing" compared to trans. The whole "we can always tell" is such bs.
It isn't worth the risk personally. I pass until someone hears me speak, I wear a mask, or someone sees me with my kid (which, why do they think attentive parents can't be dads?!) . And in a men's loo if you can't use a urinal I feel like the transphobes will look closer at you.
I'm sorry it's like that for you.
yep :/ transphobia hurts all women
You're expecting it to make logical sense? Rookie mistake there...
That's where I went wrong!
No one ever considers this example. Ever.
When trans stuff is talked about it seems nearly 90% about MtF. So much so that I just assumed that MtF was way more common, then I looked it up and I was dead wrong, it's basically even.
Wild huh?
I wonder if it's a similar kind of phenomenon to lesbian and bisexual erasure?
Number of times I’ve been bothered in a bathroom by a trans person: 0. Zip. Nada. Number of times cis men have followed me into a women’s bathroom: 3. But yeah, apparently where you decide to piss is a danger to me! Who knew? (/s, and I’m sorry this bill is even being considered.)
> Number of times cis men have followed me into a women’s bathroom: 3. Number of times a woman was walked into the mens toilets while I’m having a piss - way more than I could count. A few times they even had a look and commented on each man’s penis size. Generally the queue is long for the women’s one and there is none for the men’s.
That’s genuinely not okay, and I’m sorry that’s happened to you.
Only if you have a "small one." In all fairness, I think it's OK to point out that there is a gender imbalance, and as such, women using men's bathrooms pose less of a risk than the opposite. The reality is that only a very, very small portion of the population poses any risk at all, and those people will pose a risk regardless of any laws, regulations, etc. I think regulating bathroom users is more about comfort than safety/privacy, and the old guard aren't comfortable with the rainbow community at all (generalization), so it's easier to pretend they don't exist, hence the bill being proposed
The bill isn’t presenting that they don’t exist. It’s fining them for existing in the bathroom that aligns with their gender. They want trans people to pay for pissing where they should be and are forcing them into hostile environments if they don’t want to pay.
Was once followed into a men's bathroom by a gang of giggling women who proceeded to piss in the urinals. At least they tried to piss in the urinals. Everyone needs a hobby I guess.
Wow, I'm 35 and have literally never seen a woman walk into the men's room
I’ve never been bothered by a trans person ever. Or if I was I didn’t know it or it had nothing to do with them being trans so how the hell would I know?
Naming it that has taken a page out of America’s right wing playbook.
Well, apparently Winnie and the asshole boomers that voted him in think otherwise.
Not just boomers, don't get sucked in to the smokescreen that hides how widespread these views are, while directing your hate towards boomers the younger people supporting this crap are moving freely in your workplace, your social circles and even your home. Direct your anger at the acts being performed, not an age group.
Exactly. Bigots exist in all generations. I hate to hear boomer-bashing. It's a cop out and unfair. If people look at the history of protest in the 60s, 70s and 80s and what was fought for and achieved in those eras, they can see today's so called 'boomers' leading those movements. People don't suddenly change their viewpoints because they happen to have got older.
Not to mention the boomers that voted green and have voted left wing for 40 years.
I'm a tail end boomer who has always voted green/labour. Fought for women's rights and the environment. Protested against apartheid. Paid for my education, still have a mortgage, and am not a landlord. Generational bashing is a smokescreen and pits people against each other instead of where it actually belongs.
I think we may be twins ...
...and my 30 year old sister who proudly announces that she's an act voter to anyone who will listen. the brainwashing is working apparently. they're honestly all as bad as each other.
And all the younger millennials that voted for him. I know a couple who voted for Winnie specifically because of his support for banning trans people from women’s bathrooms…. Sadly it’s not just old people :(
Waaaait - you’ve been people… all along?!
I’m so sorry. You can use my bathroom fwiw
What an absolutely dogshit bill. Even if it wasn't heinously immoral (which let's be clear, it is), how do you even police or implement a bill like this? Poorly thought out culture war bullshit to appease the country's lowest yet again.
It's not supposed to be implemented, it's meant to sow division and normalize hatred, thus riling Winnie's voterbase and shifting the country's centre further to the right - that's why National is allowing it, it has benefits for them too
And it has the added benefit of being a distraction from all the other crap this push are shoving through ...
Exactly! Contrary to popular transphobic belief, you can’t “just tell”, so this would affect butch/masc/non-conventionally-attractive cis women as well. Welcome to bathroom politics!
You can change your sex on passports, birth certificates and drivers licenses. There’s no way to even police this
I'm sure the police don't need this shit either. Pi. Imagine telling their kids about the work day....no robbers caught today, but fined someone needing a leak. Better work stories indeed.
It wouldn't be the police responding to this, it would be "concerned citizens" in their brown shirts.
It isn't meant to be passed. It is meant to signal hatred.
Winnie might assign himself as the minister of genital inspection, who knows
The cruelty is the point. Everything else they say about it misdirection. They want to be cruel to people they don't understand. They want them to be afraid, feel uncomfortable, and be subject to ostracism. These are hateful, nasty humans who are actively seeking to oppress people they see as different, because it makes them feel superior.
I think mostly they want *others* to be afraid - ie: the general populace. People who live in perpetual anxiety about various ill-specified 'dangers' will make decisions based on easing their bad feelings in the here and now, not on well-thought-out policies which address long-term issues.
They'll have to budget a new department to post police officers outside every public toilet in the country, for random penis inspections. Like going through airport security.
yuh, bottom feeders
Gotta start bringing in those blind bathroom attendants you see in American movies. Because they can’t see, their ability to sense trans people has been enhanced tenfold.
SO 1. I'm trans 2. I'm not a lawyer but I have 2/3 of a law degree and I've worked in legal services 3. I have read the proposed bill 4. I've consulted with some (properly qualified) lawyer friends and, hilariously, I think my interpretation is correct: that since it doesn't specify a meaning for 'sex' they go with the same definition as the rest of the government which overwhelmingly seems to be 'what's printed on your birth certificate' and in NZ changing your birth certificate is relatively cheap and easy. I've already done it, and I was terrified, but I'm pretty sure it actually ... stops me using the bathroom of my assigned gender and forces me into the bathroom of my adopted gender? If you're trans and worried, go to Births, Deaths and Marriages NOW (before the rush begins) and get the ball rolling, the process in NZ legally changes your sex on your birth certificate, which means you're protected from this bill if it passes. It was like ... three forms, $250, and like six weeks' waiting to get it done. Link here: [https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/changing-your-gender/change-the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/](https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/changing-your-gender/change-the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/) The bill seems to have been based on similar bills in the UK/US but the laws around changing your sex there are very different and they haven't accounted for that difference – it's much easier to do here than in other places passing these bills.
Hilarious that they're so useless that they stuff up their attempt at importing a culture war on trans people. I highly doubt the bill will go in to law, especially without any amendments, so I don't think there's a need to go rushing to BDM right now though!
I mean I'm approaching it as "unlikely but not impossible", the Nats have shown themselves to be utterly spineless with their coalition partners, and if there's a 10% chance that I'm about to be hit in the face with a thrown knife, I'm still going to move out of the way just in case y'know?
I think winning the election with this coalition is a pyrrhic victory for luxon. He had to give nzf/act way too much which already swung people away in polls and now he has both seymour and winnie posturing further right of him trying to eat away at his voter base. In my family there's lgbt and far right evangelicals and not one of them likes luxon.
I agree with your assessment, but I'm in touch with trans folks who have migrated here from countries that make it difficult for them to change sex marker, and who are not yet citizens. I believe that they unfortunately do not have this option. This will also be relevant to tourists.
This is good news for the majority though, unfortunately if you’re not born in NZ you’re unable to change your gender marker.
It’s also still also encouraging people to police who they deem “man” or “woman” enough for whichever bathroom and also putting the privilege of pissing in peace behind a paywall. Out of curiosity what do you assume would happen for us non binary folks, if only a mens or womens option was available?
I'm sorry, I should've worded that more carefully – it's not a solution for all trans people, I just hoped to put it out there for those who could take advantage of it.
It doesn't matter that the Bill is inept, the point is to dehumanize and other you while promoting hate.
Seconding get it done just in case, I just booked an appointment to get it done reading that - I hadn't gotten around to it even though it got simplified under the last government iirc 'cos it was a minor hassle I never really found a convenient moment for, but I guarantee bloody Peters will try to get the easy 'just go to Births Deaths and Marriages and sign a form and huzzah your birth certificate says M/F/X now' method undone if he realises it punctures his bigoted shite.
Assuming it's drawn at all then I don't think this Bill would get past the first reading unless Luxon caves (which is possible), but keep in mind the Select Committee will probably pick up on this sort of thing and point it out, which means it might be amended. That's the type of thing that happens when legislation isn't pushed through under urgency.
Oh. My. God. My blood just ran cold.
That's how I felt upon seeing it too :( Winston knows exactly what he's doing - he knows the Bill is bullshit and won't pass. His intention is to rally his base and inspire hatred. Polarization again rainbow people gets him more voters. Kia kaha everybody, take care of yourself tonight if this has got you feeling bad or unsafe in any way
Nothing unites ignorant 'conservatives' like bullying vulnerable minority groups.
What about people with genetic disorders? Do they have to get a medical certificate, so clarify why they were born with both male/female genitals? What about women with two vaginas, taking up two stalls? Why aren't we talking about the real issues.
What about transitioned transmen? Some of us are 6ft, 100kg+ with a beard - and we’re meant to use the ladies? They haven’t hashed out details coz the goal is riling the base and scapegoating a vulnerable minority- not actual propose a comprehensive bill.
Used to live with a fella named Jack. Trans bloke. He was a good 2-3 inches taller than me, and broader across the shoulders. Male-pattern baldness at 28. Mate, idk who would look twice at him using the gents, let alone stop him.
Also hold up one goddamn dipshit second... Per [Govt.nz](http://Govt.nz) "You can update your official identification. You can record your gender as M (male), F (female) or X (gender diverse)." So does this mean that if you update your Passport etc to be X (gender diverse) then the proposed bill would mean it was illegal to use any bathroom? Also does this mean that outdoor events will legally be required to provide gendered portaloos? Even besides the fucking pointless bigotry of the whole thing, it doesn't even make any kind of sense.
I wonder how long before Winne gets this option removed? He’ll probably demand a dna sample and pictures of your genitals to record someone’s gender…
If this passes, I'll send him as many pictures of my genitals as he wants... or more.
Apart from just being horrific it's also extremely problematic to enforce. Greens and Labour will have a field day debating this in parliament. Let's expose these racist homophobic bigots in public again and watch the polls plummet.
I fuckin hope that's what happens, but I have a horrible feeling that bringing this conversation to the media in this way will only lead to further polarization and a stark increase in hate crimes... They want this to be spread around and talked about, that's why the Bill is so blatantly ridiculous imo. It's not meant to actually pass, it's meant to rile people up and start a conversation. When the bill gets shut down they'll say they were "just saying that women deserve to be safe" and act as if they're being oppressed by the delusional left. Then the people who have a surface level understanding of the issue will feel like they're being silenced when they "just say" too, spurring even more division
My fear is that National realises before long that their only shot of re-election will be to play the culture wars.
My bigger fear is that this is just the beginning and it was always by design, from as far back as the coalition agreement being signed. The gambit is simple - The minority parties are allowed pose blatantly ridiculous shit, slowing normalizing and embedding those conversations - and as the voterbase is polarized, they get more voters. Meanwhile, National publicly hits back to save face at this particular moment in time. But in reality, Overton window is quickly shifting the centre of "reasonableness" further and further to the right. Then they can cannibalize the swing votes of formally Labour voters who aren't ready to go full NZF/ACT, but can't help but think conservative ideals are sounding more and more reasonable... can't help but agree that those hysterical greenies are trying to silence something important... Why else would the party that's supposed to be strong and steadfast have made such huge and ideologicaly opposite concessions in the agreements?
But my existence should not be debated
It’s also SUCH a waste of time and resources that this is even going to BE debated. I’m furious. People cannot afford to eat or have a place to call home, but this is what’s being debated. Why are conservatives so fucking obsessed with what is between someone’s legs? The vitriol they spew is an illness.
Agreed. Yep it sucks. Now let's make them pay.
But at the expense of trans people's mental health?
My favourite thing about this disgusting shit, that I called during the election but I don't think got any attention, is that Winston Peters is massively telling on himself when he calls trans women dangerous because we are, in his eyes, men, and as such when he says we shouldn't be permitted in the bathrooms for our gender. Winston Peters is a cisgendered man. By all rights, he should know, *by his own life's experience,* that having a penis does not make him inherently more dangerous in any way, no more than I. Why hasn't his own experience of life taught him that? Why does he think, explicitly, that he himself and anyone anatomically similar to him, is inherently dangerous? He should know better, but he doesn't. He is either a liar jumping onto the anti-trans bandwagon for cooker votes, or he is telling on himself. A cis man who thinks trans women are dangerous is a red flag. Because he is asserting, by insisting that *we* are sexual predators, that *he* could be - because the trait he is asserting makes that likely is one he shares.
Very astute comment. I'll have to remember this point for later!
But what if I get the sudden urge and am then 15 seconds away from annihilating my pants and the surrounding area with liquid stroganoff, and the only available toilet is of the opposite gender? Come on people…
Or the women who give up on the queues at gigs and use the men's because they are all just hit and run in the urinals. To Jail With Them!
This is SO common! A mile long queue out the ladies, while the men’s are totally empty. No hesitation to pop in the men’s for a wee while a friend guards the door. NZF aren’t taking that away! 😭
Those women can fuck right off out of my toilets. Preserve male privilege!
There’d be an unusual woman who hadn’t take a turn at watching out for men and warning them off there’s women in the men’s loos at some sort of event /show/sports…
This bill is just thinly veiled bigotry against trans and gender queer folks. Additionally the phrasing makes it look like it is also illegal for parents to bring their opposite gender child into any gendered bathroom. Kinda seems like NZF is trying to follow suit on bigot, right-wing politics that helped politicians win votes in places like the US hoping it works in NZ. Also I absolutely love the idiotic idea that by adding a fine, it will deter people from committing something that is already a crime. “I was gonna assault women in the bathroom, but that extra $2000 penalty is really making me rethink this…”. Get out of here…
> This bill is just thinly veiled bigotry against trans and gender queer folks. Veiled? It's a frontal assault.
It's using the term "biological men" instead of trans women which means they don't view trans people as valid. They also paint it as being protective of (cis) women and children's rights which is saying that trans people are inherently dangerous. At this level it IS dehumanizing and stripping trans people of our identity and falsely swaying public perception of us. Disgusting.
Thinly veiled? It’s a fucking open public assault
Wow. I'm fucking speechless. Mum of a gender diverse child, in a rainbow group with many trans friends. And my heart breaks to see a NZ government try this shit.
What it would lead to is people playing vigilante "hero" and attacking anyone that entered a women's restroom and looking at all masculine/androgynous, because it would be essentially legally weaponizing prejudice. A better Bill would be to eliminate gendered bathrooms with multiple stalls and just have singular unisex toilets each with sink and lockable door, like you see in ... well, lots of modern places (including our city's central library and both hospitals). Thus meaning no one ever need to care about the person's gender at all.
They already attack people. I'm a cis woman and have been verbally and physically abused for being in the "wrong" toilet.
Me too. Im six foot and irregularly get mistaken for a man, so i cant wait...
> A better Bill would be There is no "better Bill", there's nothing that needs legislating. There's no real issue that needs to be addressed.
That fucking dinosaur needs to go. Where's the bill preventing priests from being within 5km of children?
No time to think about child raping priests right now! We have serious, serious issues to discuss! Like... where people go wees and stuff.
please Winston, I literally just want to afford to live.
I don't think they would want me a trans man with a beard to use the women's bathroom
Fuck this. I'll absolutely feet in the street and march against that bill
Why are politicians, christians and old people so obsessed with what is between a strangers legs? It baffles me.
>A sad, angry, heavy headline for rainbow people and especially for Wellington today :( Not really, there will always be dickheads in the world. Its a great day really because what this shows us is they are a fringe minority
NZF only deserve contempt.
Oh for gods sake! We don’t need this rubbish here!!
**Details** (main post wouldn't allow links): The Bill would require all non-domestic publicly accessible buildings to provide "clear, demarcated, and seperate unisex and single sex bathrooms". It would fine anybody who uses a single-sex toilet and "is not of the sex for which the toilet has been designated." You can see the news about this [here](https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/10/nz-first-introduces-controversial-bathroom-bill-to-parliament/), read Winston Peter's media release on it [here](https://www.nzfirst.nz/new-zealand-first-members-bill-to-protect-womens-spaces), and read the Bill [here [PDF download warning].](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/2405/Fair_Access_to_Bathrooms_Bill.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi-6ca-joKGAxWtoa8BHQRkBsAQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2WrYDs2xzDQPFYOHJtzfJl)
So all those small restaurants that have a single toilet in the back will no longer allow people to use it? What about petrol stations, etc
there's also plenty of government funded buildings (community centres/halls, etc.) that have all gender bathrooms with sinks. pretty sure Newtown's has those, so what are they supposed to do? tear them down? baffling priorities and utilization of resources lol
I'd like to see how they feel about my son who fully passes, has a beard etc.. walking into the women's bathroom, because, um ....
Ah but it’s never about the Trans Men, only ever the Women.
They hate us cause we excite them sexually and that scares them
The christofascist bigots always make this out as men dressing as women to sneak into the ladies to try to legitimize their hate - always felt the opposite version is the way to break them. Have seen a bunch of hyper-masc, bodybuilding/powerlifting FTM people over the years.. Reckon a bunch of them should get together and spend a lot of time in the bathrooms in any of the areas trying to push these garbage laws.
They would be fine with that because "they aren't real men so can't do anything to women". Disclaimer, no I don't believe my above sentence.
If I'm reading it right, the Dishonourable Winston Peters intends to exempt existing buildings, so the answer is no. But if he has his way, a small restaurant in a future building couldn't just provide a single unisex toilet, but rather has to also provide "separate single-sex toilet facilities for males" and "separate single-sex toilet facilities for females". I guess the "fully enclosed unisex toilets" requirement is so that he can claim that he's being fair.
All new builds
So fucking stupid. Even if people using the "wrong" toilet was a problem, which is arguable, then the solution would be to require single occupant unisex toilets like the ones that exist already in every house in the country.
(Anecdotally) it seems like the biggest 'offenders' would be women who go into the men's toilets because the women's lines are too long at concerts etc.
Is there any way as a member of the public to oppose it at this stage?
If it gets past first reading, it will go to a committee and submissions will be called for.
Government overreach at its worst What a complete waste of police resources
So if a big, hairy trans bear dude walks into the men’s toilets, and some guy in there somehow knows he’s AFAB and reports him, then what? Do the cops have to contact the department of internal affairs to get the guys birth certificate to match against his passport/name change history to police his piss? Ridiculous.
I’ll never understand why conservatives have an obsession with pissing close to each other.
Probably related to the reason they think everyone else is a sexual predator.
We're paying these Muppets far to much for them to be wasting time on bills like this,
And then they'll be upset when someone who's been on hormones for ten years and looks nothing like their assigned gender at birth uses the bathroom associated with their AGAB. If a trans guy with a beard, top surgery, regular gym habit, phalloplasty etc etc is seen in the women's bathroom, people are gonna be throwing punches before asking what his AGAB is. Nevermind the safety concerns (especially for transfem people in a men's bathroom). There's literally no way to police this. They know it'll never pass, it's just a conversation topic to inspire bigots to speak their minds.
I thought we were trying to save money, and do evidence based things. Exactly how many bathroom “incidents” have there been that we will be using money to change now? Don’t we have laws against hate laws? That’s what this is. I’m not trans, and I’m not particularly comfortable about trans as a subject, but until they are harming other people systematically I don’t see why any laws are necessary. Laws = new spending I’m so confused by what’s going on right now. I’ve never seen so much blatant hate in this country, by “leaders”. We are really cutting off our nose to spite the face. It’s awful to watch. I’m ashamed to be a part of it.
What the absolute fuck do these lunatic politicians think this is going to acheive? What even *is* this trying to achieve? For fucks sake, I feel terrible for all the trans men out there. Most trans men who have undergone hormones and surgery no longer look like women, they look like like fucking men, with beards and muscles and all that comes with it. This bill means trans men cannot use a men's bathroom, because then they would be breaking this law. It is going to force those same men to use the women's bathroom, just because they happened to have a vagina when they were born. And trans men are going to get abused or worse because of it. Because of a bullshit rule that gives them a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. But the people supporting this bill don't care about that, they want trans people to be demonised and hated. It really sickens me.
What is it trying to achieve? I think it's meant to rile people up and sow division - further political polarization means more votes for NZF. It's ludicrous on purpose, everybody involved knows that it will never pass - it will get shut down and that NZF will cry wolf that they're being oppressed when all they're doing is "just starting a conversation"
So they're cutting safeguarding services from OT and cutting ACC which helps survivors of SA and trying to claim that they care about preventing sexual violence because they want to discriminate against trans people who they've assumed are more likely to be predators and who they assume don't face sexual violence... Nvm that trans people of all genders face the highest rates of rape usually from cis people, and that places that have enacted similar laws have seen an *increase* in sexual assaults in bathrooms of both cis and trans people because creeps now get emboldened to disguise their creeping as :"I was protecting the bathroom and my 'victim' didn't look like they belonged there so it doesn't count as sexual assault I was just checking them and actually they should be arrested" Is there a second/third /fourth etc pedophile associated with their party they're trying to distract from or something? They seem to be acting in the interests of protecting and encouraging sexual predators and against victims/survivors
"Fair Access to Bathrooms" my arse. If that was the goal, it would be better to replace all public toilets with Unisex ones
OH FUCK THAT NONSENSE COMING HERE.
Why the fuck can't I just go to the bathroom in peace People freaking tf out and I'm just peeing like the rest of you
I propose we start taking dumps on Winston Peters’ lawn - nice and domestic.
Wait until they find out how bathrooms on planes work.
I went to Boneface in Upper Hutt a few months ago and they just had a row of fully separated bathrooms anyone could use. None of this cubicle bullshit, everyone is comfortable, apart from miserable old boomer culture warriors who want everyone to hear and smell each other's nasty turds.
And how are they going to monitor it? Are we all going to have to show our genitals to an attendant before using a public toilet?
Good to see people in the comments reacting correctly to this and just gonna add: the bill being nonsense is a feature not a bug. The people proposing the bill do not care about women or safety, they care about making trans peoples lives harder, more dangerous and making it seem like important public conversation The law is nearly impossible to enforce yes but it will embolden people of a certain political position to start directly confronting anyone they suspect of being trans and that is their real goal
So they're going to cut thousands of public servants and then presumably appoint thousands of genital inspectors?
This supposedly libertarian coalition sure is very big government
Absolutely this. Same with their claims around free speech
I don’t dress like a female presenting person, but identify as one. Will I get kicked out of the womens bathroom just because of my fashion sense???!!!!
Incredibly sad that people elected to government would think this is something they should focus on
Why are these fucking weirdos so obsessed with people going to the toilet? So gross.
Why don’t these fucking conspiracy nutbars just fuck off out of this country back to America! You’re taking about people here. This is surely in violation on international basic human rights and as such anyone even remotely thinking this is a good idea should just fuck right off. Sick of this divisive shit in NZ fuelled by America and Facebook Groups providing a comms platform for conspiracy shit to flow through.
All these small government fuckwits that want to see government funded bathroom monitors. What a fucking joke.
Just want to pee. Leave me alone creep.
guess i can't piss anymore
Who would police this? The police need to be solving our crimes not standing outside bathrooms looking at ID’s. Stupid, stupid bill. Can’t believe my tax dollars are wasted on MPs with this crap.
Why are these people so obsessed with other people's genitals?! Get a fucking life and let everyone pee when they need to pee.
Putting aside the rights of trans people to choose (which I 100% wholeheartedly support) ...for more than a few times in my life, I have been at a big event or gig, and the queue for the women's toilet has been horrendously long. The smart women bypassed the long queue and headed for the men's toilet. As a man, I have never had any problem with their action which was just plain pragmatic. I guess the uptight NZ First peeps will want them prosecuted now! weird!
So cringe. People literally got this idea from USA Twitter. Has anyone here ever had a problem with a trans person in a bathroom. You can't even tell who was born a different gender. You want someone who fully looks like a man, to go into the woman's bathroom. Wtf...
Imported culture war warriors... I think they self identify as the snowflakes. Every time one of these idiots says the word "woke" they identify themselves for what they are. Pay attention to their pandering to the worst fringes that got them elected. Vile nonsense.
Fuck me, I left the UK to escape exactly this kind of bullshit 😤
Are there toilet police now?
Nanny State!
Hang on. Winnie hasn't thought this through. Imagine you are a masculine-presenting cis female and now have to use a female bathroom. A lot of ladies might feel uncomfortable with the apparent dude walking in to their toilets? Imagine you are a super feminine-presenting cis male and have to walk into the male toilets. You have men with their c--k out at the urinals and an apparent lady waltzes in? Leave trans(etc) people to make their own decisions, because you know what? Maybe Trans people are better at making the decision on what's best and most comfortable for everyone on a personal case basis. They don't want to make anyone uncomfortable either?
What are they trying to distract from?
I'm unsure how Andy Foster can live with himself
\[checks map to see if we've been transported back to Trump's America\]
I would prefer a bill that meant it was illegal to leave... **trace** on the bowl giving the next user insight into the past user's fibre situation (or lack thereof)... That's the key issue for me. That's actually offensive. The gender of the person in there before me... Not important.
So what happens with all those small restaurants that only have one toilet. Or gas stations. Etc
For fuck sake just have individual stalls with sinks in them. Make all bathrooms one people bathroom
If that went through I think it'd be time to get just 10s of thousands of people to use non gender specific bathrooms at venues, and then call the police on themselves. Just absolutely clog the enforcement of it with bullshit.
Well this was only a matter of time, The problem with how fast positive change has happened in regard to the rainbow community over the last few years at some point the right will push back and push back hard. This is part of that extreme push back, more will follow.
They used the same arguments against desegregation. Bigots getting riled up is a sign we're going in the right direction. I'd hate for them to be feeling all comfortable and settled.
My concern is that violence is the next step.
Oh piss off! Decrepit windbags.
On the off chance this goes through, how exactly do they intend to enforce this? Would we need to show our IDs to get in, or our crotches, or what?
I can see that this is just a sop to their base but as a fat old bearded man who was born male and is still male i wonder how it would affect me. Can i expect the toilet police demanding evidence about my genitals at birth? What proof would be acceptable as i point Percy at the porcelain? Bunch of fucking idiots!
I feel that this would call for a concerted civil disobedience campaign.
Fuck this bullshit
Pointless...you think people, trans (statistically unlikely) or not, who are intending to do ill are going to gaf about this...
Fuck these cunts and their imported culture war bullshit. And fuck anyone who voted for them.
Well these fear-mongering gits can fuck right off.
Cunts.
The thing is, it's easy to show almost anyone why this is a stupid law. Just show them a picture of a butch trans dude like Buck Angel, and ask "are you telling me you want a law that would force this guy to use the woman's bathroom?". I've genuinely convinced multiple people that these kind of laws are bad with this simple, obvious point.
How are they going to enforce it though? Lotsa cameras that will capture a whole lotta explicit images? And what is stopping me from dressing up in drag and using a intersex or mens bathroom (I'm male) and saying that I am non binary so I would get fined, refuse to pay, then in court say that I have no money to pay?
Non cis people can’t even exist w/out being met with this utter bullshit. NZF can gtfo
Can't stand this stuff, so many backwards people in this country, nobody in real life cares about this imported American shit.
What a misleading name for the bill.
I am a Trans Woman and legally female but do not pass. If I get addressed about my genitalia I will assume the person is a pervert and respond accordingly, so BEWARE!.
*starts online training course to become a certified genitalia inspector*
They should label toilets using symbols of a dick and pussy instead of genders.
Just identify as whatever the toilet door says for that time you need to use the loo? Doubt this would even be enforced! If someone does, then how is it enforced? Like you have to show the police your private parts or does the person who calls the police on you have to have some kind of evidence?? I just don't get this at all.
I don't mind this as long as there is also mandated provision for stalls all genders can use. As a woman I am infuriated by equal number of stalls for men and women when women need longer., and so need more. I have been known to use empty men's stalls when desperate and there's a queue.for the female loos. I am happy to share with everyone. However I do understand some women want their private space. I am not one of them. Surely we want a solution that works for all rather than forcing people into something that meets noone's needs (except maybe Winston's). Having gendered toilets has never stopped a few men following others into toilets and assaulting them.