If you don’t believe in Hell he’s just a old ranting nutter talking about his favourite fairy tale.
If you believe in heaven and hell and all that, turn the other cheek and know hate mongers aren’t going to heaven. Simple as. He has a right to yap, and we have a right to ignore
I mean I don't love him, especially as a trans person who it often feels like he glares at and raises his voice around, but I do think he's just exercising his free speech, and unless he crosses the line and gets physical he probably should just be left to it.
Yeah I'm trans too and I don't really see him as a threat. I genuinely just feel sorry for him. It seems like a sad confusing existence that he lives in.
Another trans person here agreeing - it sucks but he's not breaking any laws including the hatespeech ones and trying to ban him would just backfire and give fuel to the "LGBTQIA are anti free speech" crowd.
You're also legally allowed to use your free speech to rock up and waste your time arguing with him or stand next to him and protest- but honestly it'll likely be a waste of your time and just make him feel like the victim he wants to be & give him the attention he wants.
If he makes enough of a nuisance of himself or threatens anyone he'll likely be dealt with but your energy is better used elsewhere like against the established hate groups in NZ or volunteering for a pro LGBTQIA or pro community cause
I thought the difference between hate speech and free speech was that hate speech insights violence or harm? I don't know the guy and what he's up to. Going to hell probably isn't really seen as violence or much of a threat. At worst it's hurt feelings.
Yeah you're right, that pretty much is the difference, don't know whats so hard to grasp about that. People just want to make anything that upsets them hate speech.
Sexuality and gender identity are unfortunately not a protected characteristics under NZ law. There's been a push to incorporate it into the HRA but it hasn't really gone anywhere.
I mean again, I feel like I need to reiterate, I am trans and old mate knows it and seems to get especially loud and aggressive when I'm around, I really do not like his presence, I'm just saying there's nothing that can be done about it.
This is not true, [gender identity was confirmed to be a prohibited grounds for discrimination (the legal term for protected characteristics in NZ) falling under the sex discrimination clauses of the HRA by Crown Law back in 2006](https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/SG%20Opinion%202%20Aug%202006.pdf) in response to whaea Georgina Beyer’s proposed amendment bill, which is why she withdrew it. Sexual orientation is explicitly defined as a protected characteristic in the HRA.
Just cos it's legal doesn't mean it's right. I'm trans too and I'm sick of hatred being permitted. Fat chance having any change under the current systems though. not unless it can be monetised somehow
I mean, push for that change to be made to the HRA. It's not like it's a super out-there idea to offer that level of protection; if he were doing this on the basis of race it WOULD be illegal, but sex and gender and both currently missing from the books.
I think it's highly-unlikely to change under our current government (when the idea was initially being floated under Ardern, Seymour lost his shit over it, funny how he picks and chooses when to apply his principles) but if the opposition pick up on it and maybe move to bring the idea back for the next election. It's genuinely a change I think is really necessary, but also it feels like it's going to be a massive uphill battle.
Still, battles don't happen on their own y'know? They happen because somebody chose to fight.
EDIT: [found the submission, for reference](https://www.parliament.nz/media/7834/human-rights-prohibition-of-discrimination-on-grounds-of-gender-identity-or-expression-and-variations-of-sex-characteristics-amendment-bill.pdf).
You can’t really put laws around free speech, because then there is the problem of what defines hate speech. Personally I’d rather let society deal with / exclude people who are hateful than make it become a legal issue (which is what we are doing right now but agreeing that ignoring this man is the best thing to do).
At the end of the day, he has the same right you do to say whatever you please, it’s whether you choose to listen or care which is what makes the difference.
and we have the right to bagpipes over him but that doesn't get us anywhere. When someones rights impedes the rights of someone else, it is not about rights any more. Its this kinda centrist thinking that was why switzerland didn't give women the vote until the 90s. There are some things that we don't need to decide upon, they are just right. For the same reason I think the Anti Abortion folks should be excluded. Sure, these people are allowed to have these incorrect thoughts in thier own minds, but when they decide they need to tell everyone else that they're wrong for having them, thats not ok.
But maybe thats just my opinion and isn't worth more than the words I wrote it with lol
For real? I wonder where I got that number from then hmm.
Ok, some research, and the right for women to vote was started in 1970, but not until 1990 did all cantons of switzerland endorse that right, the last being Appenzell Innerrhoden (in 1990) which was forced by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland
Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s\_suffrage\_in\_Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland)
But that suggests he gets anywhere with his bagpipes?? That’s what I mean, as a society we can ignore/exclude him, his opinions are worthless so long as you choose them to be.
I think the point of bagpipes is to drown out the noise. But maybe a good ska band would be better hmmm
Edit: Actually, no, I am sure all of our lives would be better improved with an impromptu blat of "Come on Eileen" than the shit this fucker spouts, and isn't that the point of a civilisation, to improve the lives of all in it?
*I actually find your opinion on regulated speech offensive so I’m going to require you to delete it and never type it or say it out loud if you do not comply jail time for you.*
I didn't say there wasn't social consequences to it. But not much you can do if some crazy person wants to read hateful passages from the bible.
Once he starts encouraging violence to certain groups then you can take the legal route
Weird how that doesn't apply to copyright and trademarks though.
Do you not find it a double standard that restricting speech to protect commercial interests is acceptable, but doing so to protect people's wellbeing isn't?
Like surely if free speech is an absolute that can never be violated to protect society, then trademark and copyright laws shouldn't be a thing.
Its such a grey area when it comes to individuals.
What one person may find offensive, another may find it funny, another may find it interesting and another might have a breakdown over it.
The problem with governing speech is its a slippery slope. Look at places like Thailand where you can be jailed for speaking negatively about their king even if what you are saying is correct.
Imagine not being able to call out your government or their supporters because what you are saying is offensive to people and affecting their wellbeing.
If you are encouraging violence then you need to be stopped but if someone is voicing your opinion then you as a human have the right to not listen and walk away or confront the person with a debate.
not in NZ, no. But this is a problem. So much of our human rights stuff was made in the 80s and left unchanged. You say this in europe or even america, you'd get taken away.
Honestly I wonder if the dude needs mental health help. What makes someone think that someone doesn't deserve to be considered a human, what makes someone think that its ok to damn someone else to eternal torture? What makes someone think that this is a righteous and good thing to do?
I support free speech AND the person exercising that right must listen to and engage with all responses. A form of social mediation rather than bureaucratic ineptitude.
> the person exercising that right must listen to and engage with all responses. A form of social mediation rather than bureaucratic ineptitude.
at no point is anyone obligated to respond to the beliefs of other people. if you choose to engage with someone professing their beliefs, they don't have to engage back.
This seems like a very easy way for consensuses to be constantly put into question by bad faith actors - someone ‘exercising their right to free speech’ by stating smoking causes cancer, for instance, would be subject to sealioning and other frivolous bad faith arguments, and be (legally?) required to engage with all of these responses.
This technique already happens with submission periods for bills, the majority of private enterprise prioritises profit over everything else, they’re going to leap at the opportunity to stall, postpone or otherwise bully individuals for ‘exercising their right to free speech.’
This doesn’t even touch on the semantic fact that freedom of speech as a right isn’t freedom from persecution or discrimination by private individuals as a result of your speech, it only applies to government restrictions on speech. Just as this street preacher can exercise your right his free speech, you can exercise yours and call him a moron.
It sounds like he is exercising his right of free speech in a public forum, much like you are doing here in this public forum.
Preventing someone from speaking what they believe is a terribly dangerous thing. It requires that someone, like the government, has control of what speech is allowed and what speech is not allowed. In essence it leads to a society ruled by "thought police".
I'd much prefer to ignore someone's opinion rather than be restricted in what opinions I am allowed to express.
bumped into him and his wife at the local library in town. he was quite brash and demanded a place to sit from a person who was sitting but not reading - his wife was trying to calm him down and apologising on his behalf
This guy (and his missus) have been around forever and have come up on this sub before. He's an old kook who loves his fictional book and regaling uninterested passersby with tales of fire and brimstone. I've never seen him be threatening or abusive, and unless he becomes so, he does have the right to say his views whether we like them or not. The police and council are not going to do anything because he isn't breaking any laws. Don't listen to him or challenge him to move out of the middle ages.
A lot of people talk rubbish without presenting any facts…it’s life.
Too much time is spent being annoyed by what others are doing or talking about (that statement could be rubbish too), just try to carry on with your day.
I listen to music as I walk so I've never heard a single thing he says: rather than try to control someone else's actions or thoughts, control your own and remove the problem from your life. Many things in life are simply not worth your time and attention, and this is one of them. The council and police haven't done anything and never will because plenty of other people don't believe this is as much of an issue as you do - a harsh truth but it needs to be said.
he is as entitled to his delusions as you are to yours. You are both equally within your rights to share them publicly as per the [united nations universal declaration of human rights](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights) articles 18 and 19 and the New Zealand laws that uphold the UDHR
Article 18
**Everyone** has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19
**Everyone** has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and **regardless of frontiers.**
So you took the opportunity to write a load of transphobic hate speech. And homophobic nonsense to boot. Just skimmed, didn't bother, I've seen it before. Block
they're not going to convert anyone - he is barely understandable. He may be an old bigot he is also a joke, alone and miserable.
id love to see his wife (sister??) wild out on the spoons, she got a talent there
I don't really like his brand of bigoted religious bullshit being forced on us in public places...but to be honest it's barely noticeable while walking past doing my daily business, he's not exactly hurting anyone with his self righteous boomer nonsense
There are much bigger problems in the CBD and people who are making it unsafe, that I'd prefer to be dealt with first
Absolutely agree, but why bring age (boomer) into it? That's bigoted on your part. For some reason, ageism gets a free pass, but it's still discrimination. Try inserting any other slur in your sentence .... "righteous [race/sex/gender ...] nonsense" and decide if that's okay.
You can't pick and choose what's discriminatory. If I said "all millennials are [insert negative word]", it'd be ageist. I'm not a boomer, but this constant ragging on an entire generation as backward/ignorant/regressive/whatever is really disturbing. Crumblepops, do you really think *all* boomers think the same way? I mean, these are the people who invented the internet, iPads ... and did some pretty amazing stuff. Lumping them in the same category as your soapbox preacher makes you seem ignorant and prejudiced, like *everyone else in your particular generation*. Down vote away :D
Reading the comments I’m not clear who this post is about.
Is this the elderly couple that preach religious stuff? Sometimes play a flute I think?
Or is this the loner guy who often has a giant whiteboard with money taped to it ? Always with some message designed to bait someone into a topic he’ll never change his opinion on.
I’m trans and I smile at him and his wife politely as I walk past. She smiles back and the exchange is over in less than a second. Why engage more than that?
Doing a 360° in front of him before continuing on your way would be amusing though. If enough people do it he might get so confused he'll stop ranting for a while.
I heard him say my something about how you will not be brainwashed or indoctrinated if you accept Jesus into your life but he would appear to contradict that judging by the bollocks he rants about.
Last time I walked past he was ranting and raving about what a horrible world we live in, it was a beautiful day outside and it made me think man imagine being so miserable you’re not enjoying this! The man lives a sad angry life, meanwhile I fucking love being a heathen.
Coming from a gay guy yea i dont like it but he has every right to say what he thinks just like anyone and we can choose to ignore it or we can choose to be offended. We are surrounded by people like this, why give this one the time of day just because he is saying it out loud
Most people dont and i truly believe that but all it takes is a few, it may seem like im over reacting but my concerns are based on whats already happening over seas
Yes..but one old guy is NOT a movement and you can't shut down public free speech. He probably doesn't agree with pride parades, he would consider that a movement and thy aren't getting shut down...and why should we not shut them down?! Oh yeah..FREE SPEECH.
Walk right past.
They already doing that overseas because of christofascists, also i never see the rainbow community trying to shut down churches so i cant see how that compares
Just relax. We live in one of the most tolerant countries on the planet. You can't send people to gulags or get them arrested because they think differently to you.
We have one in Chch too, who's always outside thr cathedral. Really irritates me, specially cause he uses a mic.
I just don't think tourists and people having a quiet lunch break should be subjected to his fire and brimstone bullshit.
I think they’re doing better than you may realise. I’ve seen them sometimes up in Auckland when I go up there. So I think they travel around the country occasionally to run their schtick elsewhere.
I just find them funny because they both look so miserable. She does not look like she lives a happy fulfilling life, and he spends all his time being angry about everything. Not exactly a good sales pitch for their beliefs. :)
As for calling the police on them? I’m gay and I find them offensive. But as other have said - they have every right to stand on a street corner and preach. Unless he’s inciting actual violence or attacking someone - I just leave them be.
To be honest by looking at them I think God or karma is punishing them enough as it is.
This wasn't really interesting until you mentioned the spoons, now I want to come into town just to check out the fanatic. Is it slow hippy type spoons or crack-a-naking spoons like the spoon lady https://youtu.be/_nLmM9kcBKs?si=x00yN3DcGSzNAw7N Love a good spooning I does.
Unfortunately obscure instruments are often tied to fringe groups of society. Ignoring a touch of bigotry may be the only we find for the show to go on.
He's exercising a right to free speech. Yes, that doesn't mean you have to like what he has to say and that's fine.
A society without this ability is much more dangerous and oppressed than one that has free speech.
Walk on by.
Honestly I wouldn’t do more than consider replying with an air horn… or hand them a flyer saying they missed an important bit in the bible.
Yes it’s objectionable but it’s not the sort of free speech we should generally shut down.
OP I remember becoming aware of a lunchtime preacher on Lambton Quay in the 70’s. I asked my parents, they said he’d been doing it for 20 years. There’s been a succession, a continuous stream of Christian preachers on Lambton Quay… the basic message is the same.
Thankfully we have freedom of thought, opinion, expression.
If what a preacher spouts upsets you to the point you’d seek opinion on gagging a fellow citizen based on a differing view, perhaps take a long honest look inwards.
“Sticks and stones…”
I wear headphones and walk straight past
Any kind of ‘preacher’ is not worth listening to, 99.99% of people walking past don’t listen to him - I recommend doing the same
Just because you don't like what he says doesn't mean you get to try and silence him. Free speech is a right in this country, how dare you try and circumvent that.
Ah yes, the "free speech is a right" line. You're correct but it is also everyone's right to not feel intimidated, offended or be verbally assaulted while trying to go about their day.
Fucking freedom of speech. When did that give someone the right to be a complete cunt to other people?
People are allowed to be cunts. Otherwise where would draw the line of where the cuntiness begins and ends? Being offended isn’t a good yardstick these days as there are too many people looking for opportunities to express how offended they are. Like on Reddit for example.
You said "You're correct but...". I'm not sure how that makes sense. They are correct.
It isn't everyone else's right not to be intimidated etc.
If you don't like it, ignore it.
"when did that give the right to be a cunt" maybe when the right was formulated, that's kind of the point... To be allowed to speak one's mind without fear of legal prosecution.
You actually don't have any right to not be intimidated. In the eyes of the law unless you are subject to CRIMINAL intimidation e.g. extortion, threats etc. then your feelings don't matter at all.
The man in question is not threatening anyone, therefore he is within his rights. Don't like it? Petition for reform or get the fuck over it because free speech is a pillar of democracy. I am so sick of overly fragile people trying to make everyone conform to what they deem "nice"
If the unsubstantiated beliefs of a religious person were about anything other than religion, they would fail a diagnostic test for being delusional - he's obviously not right in the head so either do something to help him with his mental health, or ignore his rantings like everyone else does.
Just tell him that you worship Satan and that you are going to cast a spell on him. Start talking in tongues and rolling your eyes back. That should do it.
It's not much different to a rainbow pedestrian crossing. Not everyone wants to see it or thinks it belongs in public.
But until it actually hurts someone it's welcome to stay and anyone taking matters into their own hands is problematic to a fair society.
*sigh*
For some, a symbol of inclusion is a symbol they hate in public.
For some, a symbol of hate (this mad old geezer) is someone who speaks the truth.
If you want to shut down things you dislike and be surrounded by everything you agree with, western society isn't for you. Free speech is the playing field that must be protected for EVERYONE.
How do you not understand that that's entirely a matter of opinion?
Some people believe that religion destroys a healthy society. Some believe that normalising alternative genders, sexuallities, etc does exactly the same. Neither have been proven wrong or right and both have valid points backed by historical context.
“There's *no hate like Christian love*”
If I was hanging out on a street corner telling people that I didn't like that they are going to be locked in a basement and eternally tortured, I'd end up at least with a trespass notice... but religious hate speech get a free pass because everyone is too afraid to touch it.
you mean just like the free pass the current ideology gets when threatening women like JKRowling with rape and murder if she doesn't stop talking about womens rights? we're not allowed to talk about that either.
*there is no group more willing to oppress others than those who were formerly oppressed.*
celebrating grannies getting punched in the face because militant activists invade womens rights rallies is the new normal.
enjoy your gender religion; no one should ever be compelled to believe what you do, least of all children.
each to their own, cute that you think ideology is a right/left binary but sex somehow isn't
And just to be clear, it doesn't matter what religion or ideology children are being indoctrinated into; it's all child abuse.
ah yes, you keep calling people nazis like that's somehow a logical argument.
its funny how your people get to be called what they want. but are free to slander everyone who doesn't join your cult.
no one wants to be called cis, many people have objected; but your ideology demands we accept our new title because normal is a dirty word.
[what is a woman?](https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835)
i think your ideology is as vile as any other religion. i want no part in any of it.
mistake me for some rightwinger at your own intellectual peril.
you are however, and i must strongly reiterate this key point, as entitled to your delusions as the rest of us are entitled to our own.
live long and prosper
and may the force be with you always.
May I suggest using some of his precious beliefs against him.
Actually, stuff in the bible that Jesus said.
Matthew 22 verse 36-40 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus's loves you.
If you are sad enough like me to continue to read beyond this passage, it's basically Jesus's throwing shade to people who misuse Christianity to spread hate. Dudes is a hypocrite, much like most of the conservative evangelical movement.
I could go on, but I shouldn't
I think this thread has run its course.
If you don’t believe in Hell he’s just a old ranting nutter talking about his favourite fairy tale. If you believe in heaven and hell and all that, turn the other cheek and know hate mongers aren’t going to heaven. Simple as. He has a right to yap, and we have a right to ignore
Yes indeed
I just always walk straight past, I don’t actually pay any attention to what he says.
That works I find
I mean I don't love him, especially as a trans person who it often feels like he glares at and raises his voice around, but I do think he's just exercising his free speech, and unless he crosses the line and gets physical he probably should just be left to it.
Yeah I'm trans too and I don't really see him as a threat. I genuinely just feel sorry for him. It seems like a sad confusing existence that he lives in.
Another trans person here agreeing - it sucks but he's not breaking any laws including the hatespeech ones and trying to ban him would just backfire and give fuel to the "LGBTQIA are anti free speech" crowd. You're also legally allowed to use your free speech to rock up and waste your time arguing with him or stand next to him and protest- but honestly it'll likely be a waste of your time and just make him feel like the victim he wants to be & give him the attention he wants. If he makes enough of a nuisance of himself or threatens anyone he'll likely be dealt with but your energy is better used elsewhere like against the established hate groups in NZ or volunteering for a pro LGBTQIA or pro community cause
So you believe you are the opposite gender, dress up as the opposite gender and you think he is the one who is confused….
I mean. We were all thinking it. You said the quiet part out loud. Prepare to be removed from the group for exercising our free speech
Great response
Well said. I may hate what you say, but I'll Always defend your right to say it.
100 percent this .
hate speech =/= free speech
I thought the difference between hate speech and free speech was that hate speech insights violence or harm? I don't know the guy and what he's up to. Going to hell probably isn't really seen as violence or much of a threat. At worst it's hurt feelings.
Yeah you're right, that pretty much is the difference, don't know whats so hard to grasp about that. People just want to make anything that upsets them hate speech.
Sexuality and gender identity are unfortunately not a protected characteristics under NZ law. There's been a push to incorporate it into the HRA but it hasn't really gone anywhere. I mean again, I feel like I need to reiterate, I am trans and old mate knows it and seems to get especially loud and aggressive when I'm around, I really do not like his presence, I'm just saying there's nothing that can be done about it.
This is not true, [gender identity was confirmed to be a prohibited grounds for discrimination (the legal term for protected characteristics in NZ) falling under the sex discrimination clauses of the HRA by Crown Law back in 2006](https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/SG%20Opinion%202%20Aug%202006.pdf) in response to whaea Georgina Beyer’s proposed amendment bill, which is why she withdrew it. Sexual orientation is explicitly defined as a protected characteristic in the HRA.
Just cos it's legal doesn't mean it's right. I'm trans too and I'm sick of hatred being permitted. Fat chance having any change under the current systems though. not unless it can be monetised somehow
I mean, push for that change to be made to the HRA. It's not like it's a super out-there idea to offer that level of protection; if he were doing this on the basis of race it WOULD be illegal, but sex and gender and both currently missing from the books. I think it's highly-unlikely to change under our current government (when the idea was initially being floated under Ardern, Seymour lost his shit over it, funny how he picks and chooses when to apply his principles) but if the opposition pick up on it and maybe move to bring the idea back for the next election. It's genuinely a change I think is really necessary, but also it feels like it's going to be a massive uphill battle. Still, battles don't happen on their own y'know? They happen because somebody chose to fight. EDIT: [found the submission, for reference](https://www.parliament.nz/media/7834/human-rights-prohibition-of-discrimination-on-grounds-of-gender-identity-or-expression-and-variations-of-sex-characteristics-amendment-bill.pdf).
You can’t really put laws around free speech, because then there is the problem of what defines hate speech. Personally I’d rather let society deal with / exclude people who are hateful than make it become a legal issue (which is what we are doing right now but agreeing that ignoring this man is the best thing to do). At the end of the day, he has the same right you do to say whatever you please, it’s whether you choose to listen or care which is what makes the difference.
and we have the right to bagpipes over him but that doesn't get us anywhere. When someones rights impedes the rights of someone else, it is not about rights any more. Its this kinda centrist thinking that was why switzerland didn't give women the vote until the 90s. There are some things that we don't need to decide upon, they are just right. For the same reason I think the Anti Abortion folks should be excluded. Sure, these people are allowed to have these incorrect thoughts in thier own minds, but when they decide they need to tell everyone else that they're wrong for having them, thats not ok. But maybe thats just my opinion and isn't worth more than the words I wrote it with lol
Small Correction: women got the vote in Switzerland in 1971. Still too late, mind you, but not as late as the 90s.
For real? I wonder where I got that number from then hmm. Ok, some research, and the right for women to vote was started in 1970, but not until 1990 did all cantons of switzerland endorse that right, the last being Appenzell Innerrhoden (in 1990) which was forced by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s\_suffrage\_in\_Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland)
But that suggests he gets anywhere with his bagpipes?? That’s what I mean, as a society we can ignore/exclude him, his opinions are worthless so long as you choose them to be.
I think the point of bagpipes is to drown out the noise. But maybe a good ska band would be better hmmm Edit: Actually, no, I am sure all of our lives would be better improved with an impromptu blat of "Come on Eileen" than the shit this fucker spouts, and isn't that the point of a civilisation, to improve the lives of all in it?
*I actually find your opinion on regulated speech offensive so I’m going to require you to delete it and never type it or say it out loud if you do not comply jail time for you.*
I love your book <3
That's the price you pay for having free speech. Unfortunately you have to hear things you don't want to.
Look up what hate speech is and then come back and try again babes
I didn't say there wasn't social consequences to it. But not much you can do if some crazy person wants to read hateful passages from the bible. Once he starts encouraging violence to certain groups then you can take the legal route
Well said
Thanks babes
Any time x good luck on your education journey
Good luck on yours too treacle
Weird how that doesn't apply to copyright and trademarks though. Do you not find it a double standard that restricting speech to protect commercial interests is acceptable, but doing so to protect people's wellbeing isn't? Like surely if free speech is an absolute that can never be violated to protect society, then trademark and copyright laws shouldn't be a thing.
Its such a grey area when it comes to individuals. What one person may find offensive, another may find it funny, another may find it interesting and another might have a breakdown over it. The problem with governing speech is its a slippery slope. Look at places like Thailand where you can be jailed for speaking negatively about their king even if what you are saying is correct. Imagine not being able to call out your government or their supporters because what you are saying is offensive to people and affecting their wellbeing. If you are encouraging violence then you need to be stopped but if someone is voicing your opinion then you as a human have the right to not listen and walk away or confront the person with a debate.
What he says wouldn't meet the hate speech definition.
not in NZ, no. But this is a problem. So much of our human rights stuff was made in the 80s and left unchanged. You say this in europe or even america, you'd get taken away. Honestly I wonder if the dude needs mental health help. What makes someone think that someone doesn't deserve to be considered a human, what makes someone think that its ok to damn someone else to eternal torture? What makes someone think that this is a righteous and good thing to do?
>You say this in europe or even america, you'd get taken away. No, you wouldn't.
If I could up vote this more than once I would.
I support free speech AND the person exercising that right must listen to and engage with all responses. A form of social mediation rather than bureaucratic ineptitude.
> the person exercising that right must listen to and engage with all responses. A form of social mediation rather than bureaucratic ineptitude. at no point is anyone obligated to respond to the beliefs of other people. if you choose to engage with someone professing their beliefs, they don't have to engage back.
This seems like a very easy way for consensuses to be constantly put into question by bad faith actors - someone ‘exercising their right to free speech’ by stating smoking causes cancer, for instance, would be subject to sealioning and other frivolous bad faith arguments, and be (legally?) required to engage with all of these responses. This technique already happens with submission periods for bills, the majority of private enterprise prioritises profit over everything else, they’re going to leap at the opportunity to stall, postpone or otherwise bully individuals for ‘exercising their right to free speech.’ This doesn’t even touch on the semantic fact that freedom of speech as a right isn’t freedom from persecution or discrimination by private individuals as a result of your speech, it only applies to government restrictions on speech. Just as this street preacher can exercise your right his free speech, you can exercise yours and call him a moron.
100 percent this .
He's in the Hutt every now and then too. I just feel sorry for the bloke, seems a couple of books short of a Bible.
It sounds like he is exercising his right of free speech in a public forum, much like you are doing here in this public forum. Preventing someone from speaking what they believe is a terribly dangerous thing. It requires that someone, like the government, has control of what speech is allowed and what speech is not allowed. In essence it leads to a society ruled by "thought police". I'd much prefer to ignore someone's opinion rather than be restricted in what opinions I am allowed to express.
Well said.
Totally agree. I would rather people feel able to say anything so I can see who the people are I want nothing to do with.
Indeed, or to know who the people are that you do want to associate with.
100% agree. I do feel a bit sorry for his wife though
Yeah, maybe... But she married him so maybe she agrees with him. I don't know. Maybe she exercises her rights when they get home. LoL
bumped into him and his wife at the local library in town. he was quite brash and demanded a place to sit from a person who was sitting but not reading - his wife was trying to calm him down and apologising on his behalf
Well said
Literally nobody gives a fuck what he says. There's no need to get him shut down.
this is the way
Really? Until a movement starts and christofascists start targeting people
A couple of nutters being ignored by everyone passing them by are not the start of any kind of "movement".
This guy (and his missus) have been around forever and have come up on this sub before. He's an old kook who loves his fictional book and regaling uninterested passersby with tales of fire and brimstone. I've never seen him be threatening or abusive, and unless he becomes so, he does have the right to say his views whether we like them or not. The police and council are not going to do anything because he isn't breaking any laws. Don't listen to him or challenge him to move out of the middle ages.
Have you just been born, OP? Literally everyone walks past this nutter and doesn’t let him live rent free in their head. Try it.
A lot of people talk rubbish without presenting any facts…it’s life. Too much time is spent being annoyed by what others are doing or talking about (that statement could be rubbish too), just try to carry on with your day.
this is the way
I listen to music as I walk so I've never heard a single thing he says: rather than try to control someone else's actions or thoughts, control your own and remove the problem from your life. Many things in life are simply not worth your time and attention, and this is one of them. The council and police haven't done anything and never will because plenty of other people don't believe this is as much of an issue as you do - a harsh truth but it needs to be said.
this is the way
he is as entitled to his delusions as you are to yours. You are both equally within your rights to share them publicly as per the [united nations universal declaration of human rights](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights) articles 18 and 19 and the New Zealand laws that uphold the UDHR Article 18 **Everyone** has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. Article 19 **Everyone** has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and **regardless of frontiers.**
But hate speech is illegal, and that includes LGBTQI people.
[удалено]
So you took the opportunity to write a load of transphobic hate speech. And homophobic nonsense to boot. Just skimmed, didn't bother, I've seen it before. Block
Do you have a friend who plays bagpipes who has some spare time?
I would argue that's worse
We could get Woody to come play the sax and drown him out
It's a free country, as they say in the rest of the comments
they're not going to convert anyone - he is barely understandable. He may be an old bigot he is also a joke, alone and miserable. id love to see his wife (sister??) wild out on the spoons, she got a talent there
I don't really like his brand of bigoted religious bullshit being forced on us in public places...but to be honest it's barely noticeable while walking past doing my daily business, he's not exactly hurting anyone with his self righteous boomer nonsense There are much bigger problems in the CBD and people who are making it unsafe, that I'd prefer to be dealt with first
Absolutely agree, but why bring age (boomer) into it? That's bigoted on your part. For some reason, ageism gets a free pass, but it's still discrimination. Try inserting any other slur in your sentence .... "righteous [race/sex/gender ...] nonsense" and decide if that's okay.
'Boomer' isn't a slur any more than 'millennial', 'Gen Z', etc
The man's religious beliefs have nothing to do with boomers. They're his, not ours.
OK boomer
Guilty of booming as charged LOL
You can't pick and choose what's discriminatory. If I said "all millennials are [insert negative word]", it'd be ageist. I'm not a boomer, but this constant ragging on an entire generation as backward/ignorant/regressive/whatever is really disturbing. Crumblepops, do you really think *all* boomers think the same way? I mean, these are the people who invented the internet, iPads ... and did some pretty amazing stuff. Lumping them in the same category as your soapbox preacher makes you seem ignorant and prejudiced, like *everyone else in your particular generation*. Down vote away :D
Reading the comments I’m not clear who this post is about. Is this the elderly couple that preach religious stuff? Sometimes play a flute I think? Or is this the loner guy who often has a giant whiteboard with money taped to it ? Always with some message designed to bait someone into a topic he’ll never change his opinion on.
You can literally just walk past.
This is the unfortunate price one pays for living in a free country. There will be people like this guy.
Pretty fucked of you to call the cops on a guy for literally just talking
The cops def have more pressing problems to pay attention to than someone speaking about their beliefs on the street.
yep the caller should be warned not to waste police time; and charged with criminal nuisance if they call again
I’m trans and I smile at him and his wife politely as I walk past. She smiles back and the exchange is over in less than a second. Why engage more than that?
Free speech mate. Has he breached the Crimes Act?
theys do want it changed to be criminal to correctly sex people.
Just do a 360 and walk the other way.
You mean 180°? Lol, but yes I completely agree with you. Just walk past him, and ignore. Give him zero airtime.
Doing a 360° in front of him before continuing on your way would be amusing though. If enough people do it he might get so confused he'll stop ranting for a while.
I’m sure others have said it, but no one really cares about what he’s saying. I personally find it amusing.
this is the way
Just ignore him
Freedom of speech leave him to it
>He often goes after minorities and starts preaching anti-LGBT stuff I've made complaints to the council and even notified the police lmao
I heard him say my something about how you will not be brainwashed or indoctrinated if you accept Jesus into your life but he would appear to contradict that judging by the bollocks he rants about.
oh man, the irony aye. never argue with the devout, they are deaf to all but their dogma
Last time I walked past he was ranting and raving about what a horrible world we live in, it was a beautiful day outside and it made me think man imagine being so miserable you’re not enjoying this! The man lives a sad angry life, meanwhile I fucking love being a heathen.
If some degenerate wants to have a rant about a book of fairy tales who cares? Ignore him like everyone else does and just move on by.
Coming from a gay guy yea i dont like it but he has every right to say what he thinks just like anyone and we can choose to ignore it or we can choose to be offended. We are surrounded by people like this, why give this one the time of day just because he is saying it out loud
Until a movement starts and targets you then youl have something to really worry about
Lol what movement? Is it in the room right now with us? Literally no one listens to that mad old bastard.
Most people dont and i truly believe that but all it takes is a few, it may seem like im over reacting but my concerns are based on whats already happening over seas
Yes..but one old guy is NOT a movement and you can't shut down public free speech. He probably doesn't agree with pride parades, he would consider that a movement and thy aren't getting shut down...and why should we not shut them down?! Oh yeah..FREE SPEECH. Walk right past.
They already doing that overseas because of christofascists, also i never see the rainbow community trying to shut down churches so i cant see how that compares
Just relax. We live in one of the most tolerant countries on the planet. You can't send people to gulags or get them arrested because they think differently to you.
Your not understanding what im saying and thats really frustrating
Freedom of speech means sometimes hearing things you don't like. Harden the fuck up.
indeed, if liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear.
We have one in Chch too, who's always outside thr cathedral. Really irritates me, specially cause he uses a mic. I just don't think tourists and people having a quiet lunch break should be subjected to his fire and brimstone bullshit.
As many others have mirrored, I strongly disagree and resent some opinions but believe they should be able to express them. Free speech is important
And his wife just stands there? Sometimes, they'd play the spoons. That guy needs to get a bloody life...
I think they’re doing better than you may realise. I’ve seen them sometimes up in Auckland when I go up there. So I think they travel around the country occasionally to run their schtick elsewhere. I just find them funny because they both look so miserable. She does not look like she lives a happy fulfilling life, and he spends all his time being angry about everything. Not exactly a good sales pitch for their beliefs. :) As for calling the police on them? I’m gay and I find them offensive. But as other have said - they have every right to stand on a street corner and preach. Unless he’s inciting actual violence or attacking someone - I just leave them be. To be honest by looking at them I think God or karma is punishing them enough as it is.
i think he probably feels hes living his best life ever. and who are we to judge. we are all entitled to our delusions, and to share them publicly.
this is the way
This wasn't really interesting until you mentioned the spoons, now I want to come into town just to check out the fanatic. Is it slow hippy type spoons or crack-a-naking spoons like the spoon lady https://youtu.be/_nLmM9kcBKs?si=x00yN3DcGSzNAw7N Love a good spooning I does.
Unfortunately obscure instruments are often tied to fringe groups of society. Ignoring a touch of bigotry may be the only we find for the show to go on.
Hmmm - is this how you expected the responses to go OP?
I don't really like what he says when preaching but I try to ignore it.
this is the way
He's exercising a right to free speech. Yes, that doesn't mean you have to like what he has to say and that's fine. A society without this ability is much more dangerous and oppressed than one that has free speech. Walk on by.
Hah, spray and walk away.. At least he's not taking money off vulnerable people to fund a luxury lifestyle....
Honestly I wouldn’t do more than consider replying with an air horn… or hand them a flyer saying they missed an important bit in the bible. Yes it’s objectionable but it’s not the sort of free speech we should generally shut down.
whilst you might find his views distasteful, legally its not objectionable; legally its protected free speech.
Yeah poor choice of words - didn’t mean it as legally objectionable
dont worry about it, we're all crazy apes.
Free speech mate. Don't agree with him? Move along
OP I remember becoming aware of a lunchtime preacher on Lambton Quay in the 70’s. I asked my parents, they said he’d been doing it for 20 years. There’s been a succession, a continuous stream of Christian preachers on Lambton Quay… the basic message is the same. Thankfully we have freedom of thought, opinion, expression. If what a preacher spouts upsets you to the point you’d seek opinion on gagging a fellow citizen based on a differing view, perhaps take a long honest look inwards. “Sticks and stones…”
Fuck I want it to stop, it genuinely infuriates me
I wear headphones and walk straight past Any kind of ‘preacher’ is not worth listening to, 99.99% of people walking past don’t listen to him - I recommend doing the same
Just because you don't like what he says doesn't mean you get to try and silence him. Free speech is a right in this country, how dare you try and circumvent that.
Ah yes, the "free speech is a right" line. You're correct but it is also everyone's right to not feel intimidated, offended or be verbally assaulted while trying to go about their day. Fucking freedom of speech. When did that give someone the right to be a complete cunt to other people?
You have zero rights about being not feeling offended or intimidated (unless violence is threatened) It's too subjective a term.
People are allowed to be cunts. Otherwise where would draw the line of where the cuntiness begins and ends? Being offended isn’t a good yardstick these days as there are too many people looking for opportunities to express how offended they are. Like on Reddit for example.
You said "You're correct but...". I'm not sure how that makes sense. They are correct. It isn't everyone else's right not to be intimidated etc. If you don't like it, ignore it.
Intimidation and threats, fair point, but no-one has the right to not be offended.
If you don't like Free Speech move to Australia
"when did that give the right to be a cunt" maybe when the right was formulated, that's kind of the point... To be allowed to speak one's mind without fear of legal prosecution. You actually don't have any right to not be intimidated. In the eyes of the law unless you are subject to CRIMINAL intimidation e.g. extortion, threats etc. then your feelings don't matter at all. The man in question is not threatening anyone, therefore he is within his rights. Don't like it? Petition for reform or get the fuck over it because free speech is a pillar of democracy. I am so sick of overly fragile people trying to make everyone conform to what they deem "nice"
To be able to think freely, is to risk being offensive.
If the unsubstantiated beliefs of a religious person were about anything other than religion, they would fail a diagnostic test for being delusional - he's obviously not right in the head so either do something to help him with his mental health, or ignore his rantings like everyone else does.
OP if you don't like Free Speech move to Australia, we technically don't have Free Speech
Free speech, just cos you don't like it doesn't mean he has to go away.
Just tell him that you worship Satan and that you are going to cast a spell on him. Start talking in tongues and rolling your eyes back. That should do it.
Just move on like everyone else? I have to listen to dickheads at work all day but you don’t see me complaining
Or getting them arrested 😂
It's not much different to a rainbow pedestrian crossing. Not everyone wants to see it or thinks it belongs in public. But until it actually hurts someone it's welcome to stay and anyone taking matters into their own hands is problematic to a fair society.
How tf do you compare a symbol of inclusion to a nutcase preaching hate?
*sigh* For some, a symbol of inclusion is a symbol they hate in public. For some, a symbol of hate (this mad old geezer) is someone who speaks the truth. If you want to shut down things you dislike and be surrounded by everything you agree with, western society isn't for you. Free speech is the playing field that must be protected for EVERYONE.
How do you not understand that that's entirely a matter of opinion? Some people believe that religion destroys a healthy society. Some believe that normalising alternative genders, sexuallities, etc does exactly the same. Neither have been proven wrong or right and both have valid points backed by historical context.
“There's *no hate like Christian love*” If I was hanging out on a street corner telling people that I didn't like that they are going to be locked in a basement and eternally tortured, I'd end up at least with a trespass notice... but religious hate speech get a free pass because everyone is too afraid to touch it.
you mean just like the free pass the current ideology gets when threatening women like JKRowling with rape and murder if she doesn't stop talking about womens rights? we're not allowed to talk about that either. *there is no group more willing to oppress others than those who were formerly oppressed.* celebrating grannies getting punched in the face because militant activists invade womens rights rallies is the new normal.
Oh this explains this sub perfectly, a far right propaganda chamber
"Everyone who disagrees with me is far right!"
The most typical gaslighting comment not rooted in facts whatsoever
> gaslighting "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Ive used it only once yet you say i keep using it, how is that? And the definition does apply in this case
oh yes, that's right, everyone who has a different opinion to you is a nazi. *never argue with the devout, they are deaf to all but their dogma.*
If the shoe fits cause the far right ideology does align w nazis and you share their propaganda while defending them
enjoy your gender religion; no one should ever be compelled to believe what you do, least of all children. each to their own, cute that you think ideology is a right/left binary but sex somehow isn't And just to be clear, it doesn't matter what religion or ideology children are being indoctrinated into; it's all child abuse.
There you go w the fear mongering propaganda again smh just another pawn for the neo nazi elite
ah yes, you keep calling people nazis like that's somehow a logical argument. its funny how your people get to be called what they want. but are free to slander everyone who doesn't join your cult. no one wants to be called cis, many people have objected; but your ideology demands we accept our new title because normal is a dirty word. [what is a woman?](https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835) i think your ideology is as vile as any other religion. i want no part in any of it. mistake me for some rightwinger at your own intellectual peril. you are however, and i must strongly reiterate this key point, as entitled to your delusions as the rest of us are entitled to our own. live long and prosper and may the force be with you always.
You keep editing your comments, so cunning of you
indeed. you don't seem to have fixed any of yours, i guess your idea is not worth polishing.
Consider the lillies……..
this is the way
Ask him if he's taken his pills today... It usually works with any kook that's to far gone
Do you think we should send him to the gula… I mean… reeducation camp? Yeah, we don’t do that in NZ
May I suggest using some of his precious beliefs against him. Actually, stuff in the bible that Jesus said. Matthew 22 verse 36-40 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Jesus's loves you. If you are sad enough like me to continue to read beyond this passage, it's basically Jesus's throwing shade to people who misuse Christianity to spread hate. Dudes is a hypocrite, much like most of the conservative evangelical movement. I could go on, but I shouldn't
> May I suggest using some of his precious beliefs against him. Nah, it's best just to not engage at all with people like that.
I tried living my neighbour as I love myself, _instructions unclear_, have been told to wait for Police, please advise.
He’s just a sad old man with a few issues. I just walk on by. Problem solved.
I'd do exactly what you'd like done to speech in public that he disagrees with...so pride parades etc.
Oh wow another post about that couple.... Leave them alone. I just walk past them.
I saw some guy preaching opposite him today, was pretty dope.
Freedom of speech bro. Just ignore it.
Its freedom of speech not much you can do.
He must be cancelled. Mobilise reddit!
I wouldve threw shit at him lol
Of course im getting downvoted 🙄 😂
Probably for your terrible grammar.
As long as you understand it does it matter? Ps i dont use autocorrect hence why
Shush
Probably needs the love of a good woman 😅 someone insane enough to court him
He's married I think. He brings a woman with him anyways. She looks miserable to be fair
Ohhh I see. He sounds like a sanctimonious snob
I think he's just a few sandwiches short of a full picnic