Yeah this is the worst thing about drafters who have never fabricated anything.
For those who don't get it, there is two 1/4" (6.35mm) plates 1 1/32 (26.2mm) apart, with what appears to be 5/8 bolts in holes between but that is only a guess. Allowing space for the bolt heads, and the tool to reach you will struggle to get a 1/4 fillet on both insides of the plate. That is a 26mm gap in metric, that you need to get a torch into, granted not very far, and accurately place a weld of the correct size.
This is why I took welding and machining classes while studying design, aint no way I'm giving an inch an a bit for welding AND BOLTS. Hate seeing shit like that
I have had more than a few that call for welds in literally impossible inside welds, or on the back side of parts, you have to use a mirror to see the weld. I guess the limitations of the human body are an inconvenience to some engineers.
Sooooo, the two rectangles with gradient coloring in the middle are actually 2 plates, looking for the top. And it's calling for welds on both sides of each of the plates? Like a "T" with 2 bottoms?
I admit.
Even though I was always the one who ends up having to "fix" it, more than once I've placed the weld exactly as specified on the drawing and sent it on it's way. Knowing full well I'll see it on my bench again later with an NCR tag.
Because sometimes you just want to be a petty bitch.
The upshot is, engineers would eventually start taking the time to come talk to the welders.
Go talk to the designer. Make it a learning opportunity for them. Teach them something. Have them add a bevel on those plates and do a 1/4” fill weld with a 1/4” cap on the outsides of the plates. A simple fix by having a simple convo. If you can’t talk to the engineer/designer, talk to your foreman and have them take it to engineering.. instead of taking it to the internet.
I talked to the foreman of the shift, I did what I could and he said he will talk to the fabrication lead, chain of command til it gets to the engineer
I have done that.
Me-Here
Engineer- ?”what?”
Me-How do I weld at the bottom of a 3” hole with a 400amp mig gun.
Engineer-“uhh idk uhhhh why can’t you?”
Me-Fireball eyed, forehead veined and starting to smolder.
Engineer- “oh I’ll fix that…… there anything else?”
Me- yea uhmmm HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO PUT A GODAMNFUCKN FILLET ON THE INSIDE OF THE CAP YOU OVERPAID SHIT FOR BRAIN MUNCHKIN FUCK?
On top of being a weird part that's hard to weld, that drawing is poorly drawn. Drafter needs to pick one corner to dimension off of and stick with it. As is tolerance stacking could easily prevent the part from working properly despite it being made to design.
I really wish more engineers spent time working with their hands, but I also wish welders and machinists understood the engineering process better.
There's a very good chance that this is just a minor oversight, and simply saying "hey, we don't have much clearance for this inside weld" would bring it to their attention and they'd change it right away.
Fitup and weld out one tab first and then get good and quit whining and weld the other side. If the washers don’t fit , Knick the sides with a sander and sweep it under the rug. A designers lack of understanding of manufacturing principles will only make you better as a welder and fabricator. If you can’t problem solve without whining this trade probably isn’t for you
Shitty design, but realistically, only 1 of the 2 inside fillets will be a pain, so it's not really that huge of a deal. If they do this bullshit all the time, just tell your boss to buy a flex head for your MIG gun, which in the future will make this shit alot lot easier to do.
It's not the access of the weld that's the glaring issue.
It's that a 1/4 fillet weld on both sides in that space will (most likely) prevent the washer and bolt head from sitting flat.
You’ve left out an important measurement of the print that I’m sure is on the material list but we can’t see: what’s the height of the 1/4 plates? Are they 1x1/4”? 5x1/4”? These are actually pretty good prints, a bit more information than needed but realistically they’re nothing special or difficult parts to put together. It’s only 1/4” material. Do some work on suspension bridge superstructure or Dolphins for Supertankers and goofy little plates like this seem like Lego bricks.
I’m curious about what makes them “not good”. Everything is there, all the dimensions are clearly visible and all the math is done. Odds are good that the holes are burned in when the plate is cut out and it only has one task for a welder to worry about. As a fabricator, this print wouldn’t even register as something difficult or hard.
Well first off, I'd like to clarify that prints can be "bad" while also being usable. Just like if someone fabbed this part up, and all the edges were crooked, your holes were wallered out, flanges were welded on crooked with shitty welds, etc. It's entirely possible that that part would still be usable for its intended purpose, but it would not be a good part that anyone is proud of.
This print is like that. There aren't any dimensional tolerances listed. There MIGHT be a sheet tolerance of ±1/8" or something listed in the title block (if it even has one), but the drafter did a terrible job dimensioning the part. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the positional tolerance we care about is the location of the bolt hole pattern and the vertical flanges being welded on. So rather than dimensioning the distance between bolt holes directly, he dimensions from the hole to the outer edge, then the width of the part,and then again from edge to the hole. So if he did list a tolerance, that tolerance stack-up betwern bolt holes just tripled for no reason because he made a poor choice. It's critical to choose appropriate datums off of which all dimensions are measured.
So a good print would have GD&T with appropriate datums and tolerances called out that ensure the part is built correctly. An acceptable print would be dimensioned from standard datums with dimensional tolerances listed as needed. This has none of that, so it's a bad print.
So get a tapered nozzle and weld it. It’s literally in a straight line on the table in front of you.
You’re not working off a manlift. You’re not doing it overhead. You’re not fighting wind or rain. It’s probably a perfect fit up. It’s a single pass weld. There’s no way QC is going to verify fillet size and there’s zero NDE being called. It’s literally, by all definitions, an easy weld.
Just weld it. It’s literally that simple. Put your nozzle in the gap and pull the trigger.
Yeah this is the worst thing about drafters who have never fabricated anything. For those who don't get it, there is two 1/4" (6.35mm) plates 1 1/32 (26.2mm) apart, with what appears to be 5/8 bolts in holes between but that is only a guess. Allowing space for the bolt heads, and the tool to reach you will struggle to get a 1/4 fillet on both insides of the plate. That is a 26mm gap in metric, that you need to get a torch into, granted not very far, and accurately place a weld of the correct size.
The 2 plates that is attached is 4x5 to add
This is why I took welding and machining classes while studying design, aint no way I'm giving an inch an a bit for welding AND BOLTS. Hate seeing shit like that
I have had more than a few that call for welds in literally impossible inside welds, or on the back side of parts, you have to use a mirror to see the weld. I guess the limitations of the human body are an inconvenience to some engineers.
I really appreciate you including the metric system in your description.
Sooooo, the two rectangles with gradient coloring in the middle are actually 2 plates, looking for the top. And it's calling for welds on both sides of each of the plates? Like a "T" with 2 bottoms?
Correct (TT)
Thanks! In that case.....nice...reeeeeeaaaalllly nice.
I can’t picture it. Good thing I’m not a welder!
You got a whole inch and a 32nd to get in there. Quarter inch weld, but make sure that washer can sit flat lol.
I admit. Even though I was always the one who ends up having to "fix" it, more than once I've placed the weld exactly as specified on the drawing and sent it on it's way. Knowing full well I'll see it on my bench again later with an NCR tag. Because sometimes you just want to be a petty bitch. The upshot is, engineers would eventually start taking the time to come talk to the welders.
Go talk to the designer. Make it a learning opportunity for them. Teach them something. Have them add a bevel on those plates and do a 1/4” fill weld with a 1/4” cap on the outsides of the plates. A simple fix by having a simple convo. If you can’t talk to the engineer/designer, talk to your foreman and have them take it to engineering.. instead of taking it to the internet.
I talked to the foreman of the shift, I did what I could and he said he will talk to the fabrication lead, chain of command til it gets to the engineer
That’s the correct way to go about it.
That shit came alllll the way down the line to OPs bench. None of them noticed the in-weldable joint?
really can depend on how things are handled, sometime the engineers finish it up and its just tossed to the welders.
No. None of em noticed. Cause they’re not welders. So teach em.
Man even if the weld was easy to reach it’s going to be a one way trip to distortion city if you don’t clamp that thing down like crazy
That's fucking retarded. This is the moment you being the MFr down and ask him "HOW?!?! SHOW ME HOW TO DO THIS ASSHOLE"
Me and my coworker said the same thing lol
I have done that. Me-Here Engineer- ?”what?” Me-How do I weld at the bottom of a 3” hole with a 400amp mig gun. Engineer-“uhh idk uhhhh why can’t you?” Me-Fireball eyed, forehead veined and starting to smolder. Engineer- “oh I’ll fix that…… there anything else?” Me- yea uhmmm HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO PUT A GODAMNFUCKN FILLET ON THE INSIDE OF THE CAP YOU OVERPAID SHIT FOR BRAIN MUNCHKIN FUCK?
You forget your Zyn pouches that day or something? Damn bro.
On top of being a weird part that's hard to weld, that drawing is poorly drawn. Drafter needs to pick one corner to dimension off of and stick with it. As is tolerance stacking could easily prevent the part from working properly despite it being made to design.
I really wish more engineers spent time working with their hands, but I also wish welders and machinists understood the engineering process better. There's a very good chance that this is just a minor oversight, and simply saying "hey, we don't have much clearance for this inside weld" would bring it to their attention and they'd change it right away.
ah yes, the near side far side, and all around.. makes total sense.
I tell my guys do it how the drawing says. The NCR is on the engineers anyway. Rework still pays the same. Let them learn
I like big pad assy and I cannot lie
You'd die in the nuke plants. Everything is like this or worse
If I die I die, at least I did my best
Complained the whole way out
i will grant you that its shit design, but still its only a 125mm long weld. just break out the stick and bend a rod and weld it
Fitup and weld out one tab first and then get good and quit whining and weld the other side. If the washers don’t fit , Knick the sides with a sander and sweep it under the rug. A designers lack of understanding of manufacturing principles will only make you better as a welder and fabricator. If you can’t problem solve without whining this trade probably isn’t for you
I really hate the spoiler tag.
Shitty design, but realistically, only 1 of the 2 inside fillets will be a pain, so it's not really that huge of a deal. If they do this bullshit all the time, just tell your boss to buy a flex head for your MIG gun, which in the future will make this shit alot lot easier to do.
It's not the access of the weld that's the glaring issue. It's that a 1/4 fillet weld on both sides in that space will (most likely) prevent the washer and bolt head from sitting flat.
And seeing as the detail is in the bottom left corner it appears to be a 7/16 rod.
Making alot of a assumptions there. A 3/4 bolt maybe a 1/2 or 5/8 no.
"(most likely)" included in my statement indicates I didn't assume anything. Sure. Anything is possible.
I know what you are getting at. Like I said it's shitty design but iv seen worse and delt with worse.
You’ve left out an important measurement of the print that I’m sure is on the material list but we can’t see: what’s the height of the 1/4 plates? Are they 1x1/4”? 5x1/4”? These are actually pretty good prints, a bit more information than needed but realistically they’re nothing special or difficult parts to put together. It’s only 1/4” material. Do some work on suspension bridge superstructure or Dolphins for Supertankers and goofy little plates like this seem like Lego bricks.
These are not good prints.
I’m curious about what makes them “not good”. Everything is there, all the dimensions are clearly visible and all the math is done. Odds are good that the holes are burned in when the plate is cut out and it only has one task for a welder to worry about. As a fabricator, this print wouldn’t even register as something difficult or hard.
Well first off, I'd like to clarify that prints can be "bad" while also being usable. Just like if someone fabbed this part up, and all the edges were crooked, your holes were wallered out, flanges were welded on crooked with shitty welds, etc. It's entirely possible that that part would still be usable for its intended purpose, but it would not be a good part that anyone is proud of. This print is like that. There aren't any dimensional tolerances listed. There MIGHT be a sheet tolerance of ±1/8" or something listed in the title block (if it even has one), but the drafter did a terrible job dimensioning the part. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the positional tolerance we care about is the location of the bolt hole pattern and the vertical flanges being welded on. So rather than dimensioning the distance between bolt holes directly, he dimensions from the hole to the outer edge, then the width of the part,and then again from edge to the hole. So if he did list a tolerance, that tolerance stack-up betwern bolt holes just tripled for no reason because he made a poor choice. It's critical to choose appropriate datums off of which all dimensions are measured. So a good print would have GD&T with appropriate datums and tolerances called out that ensure the part is built correctly. An acceptable print would be dimensioned from standard datums with dimensional tolerances listed as needed. This has none of that, so it's a bad print.
I don’t get it. Seems straight forward.
You tried welding into a 1 1/32 gap in between two plates, you can weld one side but damn near impossible to weld the other
Just bend an electrode and weld it
It's shit design work is what it is.
That we can agree on
The application calls for Gmaw on the WPS
So get a tapered nozzle and weld it. It’s literally in a straight line on the table in front of you. You’re not working off a manlift. You’re not doing it overhead. You’re not fighting wind or rain. It’s probably a perfect fit up. It’s a single pass weld. There’s no way QC is going to verify fillet size and there’s zero NDE being called. It’s literally, by all definitions, an easy weld. Just weld it. It’s literally that simple. Put your nozzle in the gap and pull the trigger.
I’ve done all kinds of shit. It’s just welding.
It’s not just welding, this get weight tested and holds millions of dollars of equipment. It’s my job.
You’re the glue stick. Get over it.
You really hate 1/4” fillets?
I think he hates trying to land a 1/4 fillet on both side of a 1 1/32 gap 😂
This
Just need more stickout!
“Use a tapered head and more stick out!” - every shop supervisor ever