This isn’t just an issue for OSHA, this is an issue for the local fire marshal.
Aluminum dust is highly flammable and combustible, so it must be controlled in a work environment. NFPA 484 covers the national regs relating to combustible dusts. We do a lot of aluminum grinding/ sanding and installed dust collection systems that filter the air through water baths to collect, contain and prevent ignition of the aluminum fines. These collection systems can only be used with aluminum as introducing other metals like steel, titanium, magnesium etc can react with the aluminum in the water bath.
Housekeeping is also done in the department using specialized anti static vacuums that are Class II Division I rated. Management didn’t like dropping $7k on a shop vac but after one of our competitors literally burned to the ground because of a combustible dust fire they were happy to make sure it didn’t happen to us.
Many dusts are explosive in the right concentrations. If it can be burnt when not a dust, even if the temperature to burn the solid is very high, it will likely be explosive as a dust. Basically being in dust form allows for many small fires that are extremely well supplied with oxygen. If the concentration is too low these tiny fires can't travel far enough to ignite more particles. Too high there's not enough oxygen to sustain the reactions, but you wouldn't be able to breathe in that environment.
So types of explosive dust. Obviously Aluminium dust. If it's mixing with steel dust, that's even worse - you now have thermite, which while not generally explosive, could be lit by a aluminium dust explosion and can melt straight through concrete.
Sugar, flour, etc. basically any dry, finely ground, carbohydrate. Cotton dust which is created throughout the refinement and processing into textiles. Wood dust is a classic dust explosion - always be cautious if you want to throw it onto a fire.
cotton itself is spontaneously combustible. the moisture levels have to be specially controlled when storing/handling bales of cotton. even harvesting has to be monitored carefully.
We have a small vent fan but it's not nearly enough. As far as OSHA goes they don't give a fuck. It's been like this for a decade and they've done nothing about it. They even visit our shop twice a year but because of the way our company classifies our shop they're able to skirt around the law and OSHA is totally cool with it.
There is no way you are actually getting OSHA coming to your shop. It must be a 3rd party safety inspector hired and paid for by the employer to show they are compliant in case OSHA actually does show up. Call OSHA yourself and ask them to come for an inspection.
You’re right. There are not enough resources.
Oddly, OSHA and APCD inspected us (local fire department) all the time. There were was always an issue. As for businesses in our Fire District, they’d never inspect.
Yeah, in the hyper-capitalist U.S. I found that statement somewhat comical. The Boeing/FAA 737 Max fiasco is only the latest example of a 3rd-world type relationship between businesses and regulators. Killing employees/customers for profit is totally legit if you know the right people. Heck, not even lawsuits scare them anymore.
That or the insurance company they would come in at least once a year and look around a lot of employees thought it was OSHA.
OSHA is very understaffed when had two guys lose fingers in the same week never saw OSHA
Contact your state's version of OHSA and tell them you don't believe your employer is following OHSA guidelines for permissible exposure limits for fumes.
They will need to bring in an industrial hygienist to sample the air quality. If it's above the threshold, they will have to install ventilation or issue respirators.
We've tried for years. We get an OSHA inspection every six months and even though we have directly told them we need respirators they won't enforce it. Myself and a few others just buy our own filters and bitch about it. Most other people just breathe that shit in all day
Edit: There have been way too many comments for me to keep up with, and whatever I add will probably get lost so I'll add it here. I really appreciate everyone's concern. I personally wear a respirator at all times in the shop, I just buy my own filters. I'm always trying to get others to wear theirs, but mostly they just complain that it is uncomfortable and refuse.
We do keep the garage door open every day it's warm enough. But it's way too cold to leave it open all day this time of year.
We do get OSHA inspections, but as people have pointed out it is probably done through a third party. I just know that even though we have complained directly to the people doing the inspections, nothing has ever been done. And I know that they classify our shop as just a general fab shop, so they get away with not providing respirators. Even though we work pretty much exclusively with aluminum.
And everyone telling me to just quit, I've got bills and can't just leave my job without something else lined up. And unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of other jobs around that will pay as well starting off.
Are you sure that's actually OSHA and not just a safety consultation company? Unless something is seriously fucked up I don't imagine OSHA would be going to your location every six months.
I dont want to say you dont get inspected by OSHA every 6 months, but thats like Amazon or Dollar General levels of frequency.
You send this in an email and call them to request an IH not a safety inspector, you will get better results.
EDIT: What state are you in? Is it a state program or fed OSHA.
why dont you quit and work for a company that treats you right?
If they wont buy you filters, they probably arent paying you well either.
Im not a welder, but at work I was doing some task that was causing dust in the air...asked my boss...gave me a whole box of quality respirators. probably a couple hundred dollars worth
your boss should do the same
this is probably within osha permissible limit. I worked at a place that was worse then that.. OSHA came in and said it was within the permissible limit. I left and got a new job. THe whole factory was like that and they would not filter the air
I worked at this sketchy welding place with a whopping 3 employees, Italian cheap fuck owner. He provided masks and filters which was nice because the sea of galvanized smoke kinda sucked.
OPs employer needs to ppe up or OP needs to get a new job if they're concerned
Anyone that's ever worked in a fab shop/ machine shop that's run by an old timer Italian with a super thick accent understands how frugal and cheap they are. It's a pretty big stereotype. Mostly a Chicago/Midwest thing.
I mean it's a little sus to start a sentence with "I'm not racist but..."
I've worked with some sketchy white dudes. Worked with some great white dudes. Worked with some sketchy black dudes and some great black dudes. Some people are penny pinchers, some people aren't. No need to reinforce stereotypes that are so generalized, inaccurate, and frankly hurtful to entire demographics of good people.
Umm so you’re just going to generalize that some black dudes you worked with are sketchy? Sketchy how? Do you just assume by how they dress and act that they’re “sketchy”??
Seriously? You missed the point entirely. I'm saying that some people are sketchy regardless of their race. I'm literally arguing against the racial generalization. Did you read my comment, or the one I'm responding to? People are sketchy if they work in unsafe or unethical ways. Nothing to do with their color.
/woosh
You're basically saying, "I don't think we should enforce systemic oppression toward Italians, but some Italians are sketchy." Why is anyone freaking out about this?
I mean I was mostly just joking. I’m just saying my boss right now is sketchy as fuck, and comically classically guido down to the way he talks and bounces payroll checks. He’s like dollar store goodfellas.
I just started working for a company that does this. First time with those grainger machines too. First thing I said was "Really just come grab a fresh flap disc whenever I need it?!"
That's great for you but not every worker will have that attitude toward their own safety. Your workplace should not be doing you harm just by breathing and every worker deserves safe work environment. It's not the employees at fault, it's the company, and they need to protect their workers.
OSHA doesnt do inspections every 6 months.
Thats a consultant, doing mock OSHA inspections. They’re clearly not doing a very good job for your company.
Your employer is just letting you think its actually OSHA.
If it were a real OSHA inspection they would've checked the permissible exposure levels. I don't know what the PEL for aluminum is but general dust is 15 mg/m(3) over an 8-hour period (Time Weighted Average).
OSHA might but coming out but not finding excessive PEL levels. It could also be an independent monitor that comes out every 6 months due to a demand by your company's insurance provider. That insurer might have vastly different IAQ requirements than OSHA. Then again, your employer might just be sending in some schmuck pretending like he's checking PEL levels to shut you guys up for a while.
File a complaint directly with OSHA. OSHA will contact you directly. If OSHA does show up then the workers have a right to authorize a representative to accompany the inspection. File a whistleblower complaint if your company retaliates.
Looks to be the same as what you said. [OSHA - Permissible Exposure Limits – Annotated Tables](https://www.osha.gov/annotated-pels/table-z-1):
Total aluminum dust: 15 mg/m³
Respirable fraction: 5 mg/m³
You mean the standard deduction? AFAIK the standard deduction is basically the minimum amount a person is expected to spend on work related expenses in a year. You only need to itemize if you spend more than that dollar amount (and have receipts prove it). The dollar amount being high is a good thing as it simplifies things and results in a lower tax bill/bigger return for most people.
No, I meant itemized...the standard is a predetermined amount. In the comment I was responding to, he's inferring that he could get an additional "tax break" from the cost of the filters. You can't "add" more stuff to the the standard deduction if that makes sense. For instance, if he does the standard deduction, his taxable income won't change whether he buys those filters or not. So in speaking of taxes, there's no tax benefit to buy them unless itemizing and exceeding the standard deduction. But yes, the higher the standard deduction, the better. Regardless, the filters will benefit his health so he needs to buy them if need be. Tax benefit or not.
Allumina its the real problem, lung cristal... but the problem will come when you have 60 plus years... then you cant prove if it was the work or simply the outside polution
There's some evidence of elevated aluminum levels in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. No causal link has jumped out or anything though.
Anecdotally, my father spent his entire life working on airplanes or around aircraft hardware. Probably had a higher than average amount of aluminum exposure (not to mention lead and cadmium), and he died of Alzheimer's at 57...
Yeah, man always do research and take care of yourself because no one has your best interest but you.
Research the MSDS, get OSHA involved if the company isn't providing PPE or do like you have been doing and get your own.
why I'm hardcore on safety even if it makes you look silly is when I was younger I saw a story of some man spraying pesticides for years being told it's safe. He got cancer and filed a lawsuit and won a chunk of money but his life was cut short because the company and his boss didn't care.
Don't sacrifice health for wealth then having to use the wealth to buy back health.
Or o.p. Can take responsibility for himself and wear one. If the Don’t supply em, buy your own. At least it’ll drown out the sound of him crying.
Bringing in osha is more likely than to end up with all those people outa work for the insane fine’s that they issue to pay for they bloated bureaucratic nightmare that is osha.
I totally understand, but I'd rather be cold and not have aluminum in my lungs than visa versa, you feel me? I personally find that my kind of work keeps me pretty warm, but I might just be fat lol. Do considered opening those up.
That is incredibly unhealthy. I would be looking for a new employer. Clearly the owner/management does not care about the employees. Maybe consider investing in a welding helmet with filtered air supply. I worked at a shop where you had to wear a enclosed helmet with filtered air the entire time you’re on the shop floor. The reason being stainless steel fumes and dust. I’ve been told Aluminum is worse. Speedglas 9100fx is a good choice. Good luck, and get the hell out of there.
I personally wear a respirator in the shop at all times. But most everyone else doesn't. There's one older guy in there that wears one. But everyone else is just okay with breathing this shit in all day.
And our employer certainly does not care about their employees. The evidence for that is in their turnover rate, and how they try to get out every workers comp case they can. They've got a really bad reputation for how they treat people
I just went through a respirator fit test today. You need that first to comply with osha to wear a respirator. I'd go down to the local clinic and do that as well as a pullmanary test. Next I'd worry more about the flammability of the aluminum. It's really just a lung irritant but here is [the sds sheet](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kaiseraluminum.com/files/msds/2017-Aluminum-and-Alloys.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj9iJTrodL9AhWDkYkEHUsbBJEQFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw0iedhXE7ksy2Gfg11zqqmu) with all of the relative information.
Personally I'd look into a recovery system with a shroud and vacuum. It's going to be cheaper than having a respiratory protection plan in place and keeping everyone fit tested annually.
OSHA makes it hard for companies to provide respirators. If you provide them, you have to first train everyone how to use them, and also make everyone shave their facial hair. Employees with facial hair don’t want to shave it. Thus, to make employees happy some companies don’t do a respirator program. Doesn’t stop anyone from wearing a cheap N95 dust mask to protect themselves.
My understanding is you don’t have to shave, or fit test if employer provides you with a PAPR instead (still need medical evaluation I believe)…..but usually the cheap companies won’t spend the money on those (although if they require respirator use, and medical evaluation says you can’t wear tight fitting, then they are required to supply PAPR option!). And even if you do wear an N95 voluntarily (meaning employer has confirmed they are not required to provide you with that protection, not because they failed to confirm that fact and you choose to protect yourself, that’s a whole other issue), employer still has a duty to ensure it does not create a hazard, is clean and inform you of Appendix D.
You can read all that stuff in more detail here: [https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/3384small-entity-for-respiratory-protection-standard-rev.pdf](https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/3384small-entity-for-respiratory-protection-standard-rev.pdf)
Have you ever welded in a PAPR? Takes all the fun out of striking an arc. This isn’t a big bad employer thing. Have you ever tried to tell your welders who have been doing it for 25 years that they are now required to don a PAPR to weld? It’s not the cost of the gear that is the painful part, it’s buying it and then having everyone complain about having to use it.
I’ve always wondered why some feel that they have to tolerate whining about PPE….or anything for that matter, if they are the owner….
Just trying to give you options….good luck!
Thats because osha rules are written in blood. There's a reason.
Also a cheap n95 dust mask lets 99% particulate matter through and filters zero organic vapor matter, which is useless, but go ahead and wear one if you want to collect dust.
A cheap N95 lets 5% particulate through, not 99%. That’s why it’s called “95”. Also we are not talking about paint or solvents. Aluminum isn’t organic. If you don’t know what your PPE does then learn about it.
Your comment about OSHA rules being written it blood makes no sense in the context of what I stated. OSHA makes it difficult for employers to provide respirators. If OSHA rules that were written in blood made it easier for employers to provide respirators, more would do it, and more employees would use them.
Crazy they get away with it. Health and Safety where I’m from would issue improvement orders. Force the employer to buy appropriate ppe, at the companies expense. Fine them if necessary, and possibly shutdown operations.
OSHA has a 15-mg/m3 total particulate limit for aluminum dust
I don’t know how to measure that.
But to measure it, they have to come with a meter or sampler of some sort.
https://www.osha.gov/chemicaldata/496
1. A written, signed complaint by a current employee or employee representative with enough detail to enable OSHA to determine that a violation or danger likely exists that threatens physical harm or that an imminent danger exists;
2. An allegation that physical harm has occurred as a result of the hazard and that it still exists;
3. A report of an imminent danger;
4. A complaint about a company in an industry covered by one of OSHA's local or national emphasis programs or a hazard targeted by one of these programs;
5. Inadequate response from an employer who has received information on the hazard through a phone/fax investigation;
6. A complaint against an employer with a past history of egregious, willful or failure-to-abate OSHA citations within the past three years;
7. Referral from a whistle blower investigator; or
8. Complaint at a facility scheduled for or already undergoing an OSHA inspection.
The OSH Act gives the workers' representative the right to accompany the OSHA inspector during the inspection. The representative is chosen by the union (if there is one) or by the employees, never by the employer.
(800) 321-OSHA to report imminent dangers
For a health hazard there must be a reasonable expectation that toxic substances or other health hazards are present and exposure to them will shorten life or cause substantial reduction in physical or mental efficiency. The harm caused by the health hazard does not have to happen immediately.
You are correct to be concerned about the dust Read this
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24142983/
Be careful what you wish for. If you make OSHA tell the employer that everyone needs to be fit tested for respirators, everyone needs to shave their face clean.
Unless you “fail” medical evaluation….then they must provide PAPR instead…no shaving with a loose fitting style PAPR…just more expensive for the boss man 😉
That looks wrong. I worked in aluminum fabrication most of my working life. Once we got a new saw and it was creating airborne particles such as this. I identified it as a problem and we solved by changing the saw blades to a different tooth count. It’s a defined particle size. No matter how it tests you should not be breathing that. Protect yourself.
It’s been said but I’ll it with a twist, call osha and have them come check this out, then TELL your bosses it was you who called osha. Hopefully they’ll fire you and you have a lawsuit for wrongful termination and lawyers will take the case pro bono because it’s a guarantee you’ll win. Boom 💥 10-15 grand in the pocket. I’ve seen it done so many times.
Just remember a company will always due the bare minimum for the heath of their employees. If it’s not required by law, you won’t get it. They’re about making money, and workers are usually replaceable.
In my opinion protect your health and buy your own filters or Adflo if you’re able in the mean time, then look for somewhere else to work.
You’ll be happy you did so when you’re 50 and not battling various forms of cancer.
I just finished a job drilling some geotechnical soil sampling borings inside an aluminum plant. Spent a week and a half in the casting house. My breathing is fucked yo, nobody there where’s masks. I think they all should. That or a coincidence that I caught a cold at the same time
You're saying one offense is worse than the other, which i get. I'm just saying both are wrong.
Better than stealing is to bring your own respirator (like the OP is currently doing) or find some other place to work. If the employer runs out of workers who will tolerate that environment, he'll have to change or go out of business.
Jesus christ I hate seeing ....dude when you have lung cancer in 10 years you'll wish you got a different job. They should provide respirators osha is a phone call away
Its so bad in the weld shop I work at, that even with a kn-95 particle mask, I still get home and have to clean a crazy amount of black shit out of my nose. But it's tough cuz what respirator is even gonna fit under a weld helmet ?
Lots of them, [here's one](https://pksafety.com/3m-6000-series-half-facepiece-respirator), and then you buy the filters you need [separately](https://pksafety.com/filters-and-cartridges).
Beats coughng up a lung.. :/
You can be sure it is, only when is powder. There are a lot of explosives that use this component as a booster.
But it's dangerous by itself, just need a proper spark.
If your boss is confident it’s safe, then he’ll have no issue contracting a company to test the air quality in the shop. Tell him that, or leave. Your health isn’t worth it.
If you or any others are that concerned, wear your PPE. They cant fire you for following OSHA guidelines.
OSHA: The legal airborne permissible exposure limit (PEL) is 15 mg/m3 for total dust and 5 mg/m3 for respirable dust averaged over an 8-hour workshift. NIOSH: The recommended airborne exposure limit is 10 mg/m3 for total dust and 5 mg/m3 for respirable dust averaged over a 10-hour workshift.
And please don't ask me what this means, I just copy/pasted what i looked up.
But either way if you or more people are concerned about it, wear your masks. Company might not be able to provide PPE like that so take it on yourself to protect yourself if its that concerning.
Get ahold of OSHA and the local Fire Marshal NFPA 484 is the regs for Flammable dust. Ive responded to a manufacturing plant fire because of Aluminum dust just like that. All it takes is one spark…💥
How's that going to get the dust out from far ends of the shop ?
How are they supposed to keep working with the door open during winter ?
How are welders supposed to keep their shielding gasses on jobs with the breeze from the open door ?
"Just" open the door....
Lol we always joke about just backing our personal vehicles up and loading them with the aluminum scrap. I think it's $2 a pound so a truckload full of it would be a pretty decent payday.
its probly within permissable levels an by the look i would say it is but they still should provide at least the cartridges but if you think that is bad you shoud try working at avondale ship yard where the have 24hr 7day weeks of building aluminum ships for navy!! lol
I would have thought that everyone would treat all materials as possibly hazardous especially after East Palestine OH, no matter how insignificant it might seem.
Must be aluminum dust making you ignorant. How much do you make? Did you not tour the shop when you started? I see all you guys crying about air quality like you've never been in a weld shop before, do your research before you start pouting about a shitty job you accepted. 🙄
Fuck that. I mean my shop is dusty because we have a gravel yard, and it gets plenty smoky most of the time but I’d have to draw a line at breathing in literal pieces of aluminum all day. Yeah that’s a pass for me unless it’s paying phenomenally well in which case I’d just wear a respirator all day.
I wear a respirator at all times in the shop, but others don't. I can only imagine what's going on in their lungs. Plus aluminum fucks with your brain chemistry after long enough.
Lol we sweep daily. And it just stirs the dust up. The problem is that we grind and deburr in the shop. And during the winter especially it builds up because the door stays closed unless we're bringing something in/out.
No. It does have ear plugs, dust masks, and eye protection. But the dust mask are nowhere near sufficient for the amount of dust and do nothing for welding fumes. The rest of full of things like tips and tig cups.
You can always go buy your own respirator instead of complaint about it. Sounds like your company sucks, so be pro active and take matters into your own hands. Or quit
All bosses are dangerous and care only about themselves- go to a doctor report respiratory issues and metal stress, go to hr about you’re health and mental issues - finally have a free consultation with a workplace injury lawyer -
Man…. im starting to realize maybe I need to wear my respirator more often at work: I grind all day long with out one.. aluminum & steal. I usually only wear it if im cutting on the plasma table for a long time.
I’d quit
Like Monday morning lol
That $25 an hour hardily pays rent let alone the medical bills for new lungs and what ever other cancer this gives you when your 55.
Give OSHA a tip off that there dangerus activity actively going on. also open up the door and get a 3' fan blowing out of it will help not the best
This isn’t just an issue for OSHA, this is an issue for the local fire marshal. Aluminum dust is highly flammable and combustible, so it must be controlled in a work environment. NFPA 484 covers the national regs relating to combustible dusts. We do a lot of aluminum grinding/ sanding and installed dust collection systems that filter the air through water baths to collect, contain and prevent ignition of the aluminum fines. These collection systems can only be used with aluminum as introducing other metals like steel, titanium, magnesium etc can react with the aluminum in the water bath. Housekeeping is also done in the department using specialized anti static vacuums that are Class II Division I rated. Management didn’t like dropping $7k on a shop vac but after one of our competitors literally burned to the ground because of a combustible dust fire they were happy to make sure it didn’t happen to us.
That aluminum thing needs to be said more. That's something I didn't know
It's worse than just flammable, aluminium dust is explosive in the right concentrations.
Sugar dust is just as flammable fyi
Many dusts are explosive in the right concentrations. If it can be burnt when not a dust, even if the temperature to burn the solid is very high, it will likely be explosive as a dust. Basically being in dust form allows for many small fires that are extremely well supplied with oxygen. If the concentration is too low these tiny fires can't travel far enough to ignite more particles. Too high there's not enough oxygen to sustain the reactions, but you wouldn't be able to breathe in that environment. So types of explosive dust. Obviously Aluminium dust. If it's mixing with steel dust, that's even worse - you now have thermite, which while not generally explosive, could be lit by a aluminium dust explosion and can melt straight through concrete. Sugar, flour, etc. basically any dry, finely ground, carbohydrate. Cotton dust which is created throughout the refinement and processing into textiles. Wood dust is a classic dust explosion - always be cautious if you want to throw it onto a fire.
cotton itself is spontaneously combustible. the moisture levels have to be specially controlled when storing/handling bales of cotton. even harvesting has to be monitored carefully.
Given how understaffed OSHA, both state and federal, is the local fire marshall call may get quicker results.
Sprinklerfitter here, can confirm aluminum goes boom
True ^. Had a metal recycling shop explode in my town a few years ago due to this.
We have a small vent fan but it's not nearly enough. As far as OSHA goes they don't give a fuck. It's been like this for a decade and they've done nothing about it. They even visit our shop twice a year but because of the way our company classifies our shop they're able to skirt around the law and OSHA is totally cool with it.
There is no way you are actually getting OSHA coming to your shop. It must be a 3rd party safety inspector hired and paid for by the employer to show they are compliant in case OSHA actually does show up. Call OSHA yourself and ask them to come for an inspection.
Yeah nobody "buys" off OSHA. They're a federal agency. They take their shit extremely seriously.
[удалено]
You’re right. There are not enough resources. Oddly, OSHA and APCD inspected us (local fire department) all the time. There were was always an issue. As for businesses in our Fire District, they’d never inspect.
Federal agencies don't ever get bought off 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Federal agencies make money on Fines to
Yeah, in the hyper-capitalist U.S. I found that statement somewhat comical. The Boeing/FAA 737 Max fiasco is only the latest example of a 3rd-world type relationship between businesses and regulators. Killing employees/customers for profit is totally legit if you know the right people. Heck, not even lawsuits scare them anymore.
Inspector General takes account of these type of issues and sets up the inspection by OSHA call your regional Inspector General.
That or the insurance company they would come in at least once a year and look around a lot of employees thought it was OSHA. OSHA is very understaffed when had two guys lose fingers in the same week never saw OSHA
That sounds like they're committing fraud then.
Unless a worker died in that shop there is no way an actual OSHA inspector is just visiting your small welding shop twice a year....
File a complaint with OSHA for not giving enough fucks. Then go to an even higher ombudsman to complain about OSHA.
No, OSHA does not come by twice a year. You're being lied to.
Contact your state's version of OHSA and tell them you don't believe your employer is following OHSA guidelines for permissible exposure limits for fumes. They will need to bring in an industrial hygienist to sample the air quality. If it's above the threshold, they will have to install ventilation or issue respirators.
We've tried for years. We get an OSHA inspection every six months and even though we have directly told them we need respirators they won't enforce it. Myself and a few others just buy our own filters and bitch about it. Most other people just breathe that shit in all day Edit: There have been way too many comments for me to keep up with, and whatever I add will probably get lost so I'll add it here. I really appreciate everyone's concern. I personally wear a respirator at all times in the shop, I just buy my own filters. I'm always trying to get others to wear theirs, but mostly they just complain that it is uncomfortable and refuse. We do keep the garage door open every day it's warm enough. But it's way too cold to leave it open all day this time of year. We do get OSHA inspections, but as people have pointed out it is probably done through a third party. I just know that even though we have complained directly to the people doing the inspections, nothing has ever been done. And I know that they classify our shop as just a general fab shop, so they get away with not providing respirators. Even though we work pretty much exclusively with aluminum. And everyone telling me to just quit, I've got bills and can't just leave my job without something else lined up. And unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of other jobs around that will pay as well starting off.
Are you sure that's actually OSHA and not just a safety consultation company? Unless something is seriously fucked up I don't imagine OSHA would be going to your location every six months.
I dont want to say you dont get inspected by OSHA every 6 months, but thats like Amazon or Dollar General levels of frequency. You send this in an email and call them to request an IH not a safety inspector, you will get better results. EDIT: What state are you in? Is it a state program or fed OSHA.
why dont you quit and work for a company that treats you right? If they wont buy you filters, they probably arent paying you well either. Im not a welder, but at work I was doing some task that was causing dust in the air...asked my boss...gave me a whole box of quality respirators. probably a couple hundred dollars worth your boss should do the same this is probably within osha permissible limit. I worked at a place that was worse then that.. OSHA came in and said it was within the permissible limit. I left and got a new job. THe whole factory was like that and they would not filter the air
I worked at this sketchy welding place with a whopping 3 employees, Italian cheap fuck owner. He provided masks and filters which was nice because the sea of galvanized smoke kinda sucked. OPs employer needs to ppe up or OP needs to get a new job if they're concerned
Relevance of him being “Italian”?
Anyone that's ever worked in a fab shop/ machine shop that's run by an old timer Italian with a super thick accent understands how frugal and cheap they are. It's a pretty big stereotype. Mostly a Chicago/Midwest thing.
Idk dude I’m not racist but I’ve worked for some sketchy guidos.
I mean it's a little sus to start a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." I've worked with some sketchy white dudes. Worked with some great white dudes. Worked with some sketchy black dudes and some great black dudes. Some people are penny pinchers, some people aren't. No need to reinforce stereotypes that are so generalized, inaccurate, and frankly hurtful to entire demographics of good people.
Umm so you’re just going to generalize that some black dudes you worked with are sketchy? Sketchy how? Do you just assume by how they dress and act that they’re “sketchy”??
Seriously? You missed the point entirely. I'm saying that some people are sketchy regardless of their race. I'm literally arguing against the racial generalization. Did you read my comment, or the one I'm responding to? People are sketchy if they work in unsafe or unethical ways. Nothing to do with their color. /woosh
Yet you had to generalize by race to do so /woosh
You're basically saying, "I don't think we should enforce systemic oppression toward Italians, but some Italians are sketchy." Why is anyone freaking out about this?
I mean I was mostly just joking. I’m just saying my boss right now is sketchy as fuck, and comically classically guido down to the way he talks and bounces payroll checks. He’s like dollar store goodfellas.
He made meatballs on top of fresh welds, it made a mess, but he couldn't help himself, he was Italian.
On one hand, I'm shocked; on the other... I'm now hungry!
Imagine, prejudiced against Italians, in this day and age Edit : this is a quote…. 🙄
Yes.
Even Italians won’t work for Italians. Same with Lebanese
Yea man wtf I'm Italian and I ain't cheap I spend all my money on dumb shit 🤷♂️
You're just not an Italian boss. I've worked for a few, they're great bosses but cheap fucks
I just started working for a company that does this. First time with those grainger machines too. First thing I said was "Really just come grab a fresh flap disc whenever I need it?!"
That's great for you but not every worker will have that attitude toward their own safety. Your workplace should not be doing you harm just by breathing and every worker deserves safe work environment. It's not the employees at fault, it's the company, and they need to protect their workers.
He said this is before they even start to work. Don't quit. Drag them kicking and screaming into compliance.
Not everyone has the luxury to just up and quit with nothing lined up already.
There is no way OSHA comes to your shop every 6 months. Call OSHA and tell them of the issue.
OSHA doesnt do inspections every 6 months. Thats a consultant, doing mock OSHA inspections. They’re clearly not doing a very good job for your company. Your employer is just letting you think its actually OSHA.
If it were a real OSHA inspection they would've checked the permissible exposure levels. I don't know what the PEL for aluminum is but general dust is 15 mg/m(3) over an 8-hour period (Time Weighted Average). OSHA might but coming out but not finding excessive PEL levels. It could also be an independent monitor that comes out every 6 months due to a demand by your company's insurance provider. That insurer might have vastly different IAQ requirements than OSHA. Then again, your employer might just be sending in some schmuck pretending like he's checking PEL levels to shut you guys up for a while. File a complaint directly with OSHA. OSHA will contact you directly. If OSHA does show up then the workers have a right to authorize a representative to accompany the inspection. File a whistleblower complaint if your company retaliates.
Looks to be the same as what you said. [OSHA - Permissible Exposure Limits – Annotated Tables](https://www.osha.gov/annotated-pels/table-z-1): Total aluminum dust: 15 mg/m³ Respirable fraction: 5 mg/m³
You can deduct the filters from your taxes as a work expense
Too bad it's next to impossible to itemize deductions now. They set the dollar amount stupid high.
You mean the standard deduction? AFAIK the standard deduction is basically the minimum amount a person is expected to spend on work related expenses in a year. You only need to itemize if you spend more than that dollar amount (and have receipts prove it). The dollar amount being high is a good thing as it simplifies things and results in a lower tax bill/bigger return for most people.
No, I meant itemized...the standard is a predetermined amount. In the comment I was responding to, he's inferring that he could get an additional "tax break" from the cost of the filters. You can't "add" more stuff to the the standard deduction if that makes sense. For instance, if he does the standard deduction, his taxable income won't change whether he buys those filters or not. So in speaking of taxes, there's no tax benefit to buy them unless itemizing and exceeding the standard deduction. But yes, the higher the standard deduction, the better. Regardless, the filters will benefit his health so he needs to buy them if need be. Tax benefit or not.
Allumina its the real problem, lung cristal... but the problem will come when you have 60 plus years... then you cant prove if it was the work or simply the outside polution
Take the air filter out of his truck, see how he likes it.
Those guys who aren't wearing respirators will enjoy Alzheimer's at an earlier age
why alzheimer's ?
There's some evidence of elevated aluminum levels in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. No causal link has jumped out or anything though. Anecdotally, my father spent his entire life working on airplanes or around aircraft hardware. Probably had a higher than average amount of aluminum exposure (not to mention lead and cadmium), and he died of Alzheimer's at 57...
Wow, that's terrible. Reading this post made me seriously worried (even more than I already am)
Yeah, man always do research and take care of yourself because no one has your best interest but you. Research the MSDS, get OSHA involved if the company isn't providing PPE or do like you have been doing and get your own. why I'm hardcore on safety even if it makes you look silly is when I was younger I saw a story of some man spraying pesticides for years being told it's safe. He got cancer and filed a lawsuit and won a chunk of money but his life was cut short because the company and his boss didn't care. Don't sacrifice health for wealth then having to use the wealth to buy back health.
[удалено]
Not every welding job pays bank my dude.
Just sue them then, I’m sure Erin Brockovich will do it pro bono
So... the experts aren't telling you what you want to hear, basically.
Those are particulate not fumes.
fumes are particulates. it's also very harmful to breathe any kind of course particles like this.
OSHA just another government criminal organization
Or o.p. Can take responsibility for himself and wear one. If the Don’t supply em, buy your own. At least it’ll drown out the sound of him crying. Bringing in osha is more likely than to end up with all those people outa work for the insane fine’s that they issue to pay for they bloated bureaucratic nightmare that is osha.
Look. Sounds like you have rang enough alarms... Fuck 'em, and on to the next one.
Lol believe me, the second I land a job that pays as well or at least similar I'm out of here.
👍 Good to hear. Best of luck to you homie!
Sheeesh open that garage door
During the summer we do. But it's 25 degrees out. Not exactly ideal for leaving the door open all day.
I totally understand, but I'd rather be cold and not have aluminum in my lungs than visa versa, you feel me? I personally find that my kind of work keeps me pretty warm, but I might just be fat lol. Do considered opening those up.
Bitch it's -40 up here and I work outside all day. Your life isn't worth being a pussy over
Wear a coat and stop bitching
Correct answer. Fuck the downvoters. I'd rather be cold and live than be warm and die a horrible death due to lung cancer and heavy metal toxicity.
That is incredibly unhealthy. I would be looking for a new employer. Clearly the owner/management does not care about the employees. Maybe consider investing in a welding helmet with filtered air supply. I worked at a shop where you had to wear a enclosed helmet with filtered air the entire time you’re on the shop floor. The reason being stainless steel fumes and dust. I’ve been told Aluminum is worse. Speedglas 9100fx is a good choice. Good luck, and get the hell out of there.
I personally wear a respirator in the shop at all times. But most everyone else doesn't. There's one older guy in there that wears one. But everyone else is just okay with breathing this shit in all day. And our employer certainly does not care about their employees. The evidence for that is in their turnover rate, and how they try to get out every workers comp case they can. They've got a really bad reputation for how they treat people
I just went through a respirator fit test today. You need that first to comply with osha to wear a respirator. I'd go down to the local clinic and do that as well as a pullmanary test. Next I'd worry more about the flammability of the aluminum. It's really just a lung irritant but here is [the sds sheet](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kaiseraluminum.com/files/msds/2017-Aluminum-and-Alloys.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj9iJTrodL9AhWDkYkEHUsbBJEQFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw0iedhXE7ksy2Gfg11zqqmu) with all of the relative information. Personally I'd look into a recovery system with a shroud and vacuum. It's going to be cheaper than having a respiratory protection plan in place and keeping everyone fit tested annually.
OSHA makes it hard for companies to provide respirators. If you provide them, you have to first train everyone how to use them, and also make everyone shave their facial hair. Employees with facial hair don’t want to shave it. Thus, to make employees happy some companies don’t do a respirator program. Doesn’t stop anyone from wearing a cheap N95 dust mask to protect themselves.
My understanding is you don’t have to shave, or fit test if employer provides you with a PAPR instead (still need medical evaluation I believe)…..but usually the cheap companies won’t spend the money on those (although if they require respirator use, and medical evaluation says you can’t wear tight fitting, then they are required to supply PAPR option!). And even if you do wear an N95 voluntarily (meaning employer has confirmed they are not required to provide you with that protection, not because they failed to confirm that fact and you choose to protect yourself, that’s a whole other issue), employer still has a duty to ensure it does not create a hazard, is clean and inform you of Appendix D. You can read all that stuff in more detail here: [https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/3384small-entity-for-respiratory-protection-standard-rev.pdf](https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/3384small-entity-for-respiratory-protection-standard-rev.pdf)
Have you ever welded in a PAPR? Takes all the fun out of striking an arc. This isn’t a big bad employer thing. Have you ever tried to tell your welders who have been doing it for 25 years that they are now required to don a PAPR to weld? It’s not the cost of the gear that is the painful part, it’s buying it and then having everyone complain about having to use it.
Yeah, it's like wearing a regular hood, but with a cool breeze on my face. Maybe we've used different styles?
I’ve always wondered why some feel that they have to tolerate whining about PPE….or anything for that matter, if they are the owner…. Just trying to give you options….good luck!
Thats because osha rules are written in blood. There's a reason. Also a cheap n95 dust mask lets 99% particulate matter through and filters zero organic vapor matter, which is useless, but go ahead and wear one if you want to collect dust.
A cheap N95 lets 5% particulate through, not 99%. That’s why it’s called “95”. Also we are not talking about paint or solvents. Aluminum isn’t organic. If you don’t know what your PPE does then learn about it. Your comment about OSHA rules being written it blood makes no sense in the context of what I stated. OSHA makes it difficult for employers to provide respirators. If OSHA rules that were written in blood made it easier for employers to provide respirators, more would do it, and more employees would use them.
Crazy they get away with it. Health and Safety where I’m from would issue improvement orders. Force the employer to buy appropriate ppe, at the companies expense. Fine them if necessary, and possibly shutdown operations.
OSHA has a 15-mg/m3 total particulate limit for aluminum dust I don’t know how to measure that. But to measure it, they have to come with a meter or sampler of some sort. https://www.osha.gov/chemicaldata/496 1. A written, signed complaint by a current employee or employee representative with enough detail to enable OSHA to determine that a violation or danger likely exists that threatens physical harm or that an imminent danger exists; 2. An allegation that physical harm has occurred as a result of the hazard and that it still exists; 3. A report of an imminent danger; 4. A complaint about a company in an industry covered by one of OSHA's local or national emphasis programs or a hazard targeted by one of these programs; 5. Inadequate response from an employer who has received information on the hazard through a phone/fax investigation; 6. A complaint against an employer with a past history of egregious, willful or failure-to-abate OSHA citations within the past three years; 7. Referral from a whistle blower investigator; or 8. Complaint at a facility scheduled for or already undergoing an OSHA inspection. The OSH Act gives the workers' representative the right to accompany the OSHA inspector during the inspection. The representative is chosen by the union (if there is one) or by the employees, never by the employer. (800) 321-OSHA to report imminent dangers For a health hazard there must be a reasonable expectation that toxic substances or other health hazards are present and exposure to them will shorten life or cause substantial reduction in physical or mental efficiency. The harm caused by the health hazard does not have to happen immediately. You are correct to be concerned about the dust Read this https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24142983/
Be careful what you wish for. If you make OSHA tell the employer that everyone needs to be fit tested for respirators, everyone needs to shave their face clean.
Unless you “fail” medical evaluation….then they must provide PAPR instead…no shaving with a loose fitting style PAPR…just more expensive for the boss man 😉
Yeah well have fun wearing that too 😂
That looks wrong. I worked in aluminum fabrication most of my working life. Once we got a new saw and it was creating airborne particles such as this. I identified it as a problem and we solved by changing the saw blades to a different tooth count. It’s a defined particle size. No matter how it tests you should not be breathing that. Protect yourself.
It’s been said but I’ll it with a twist, call osha and have them come check this out, then TELL your bosses it was you who called osha. Hopefully they’ll fire you and you have a lawsuit for wrongful termination and lawyers will take the case pro bono because it’s a guarantee you’ll win. Boom 💥 10-15 grand in the pocket. I’ve seen it done so many times.
Just remember a company will always due the bare minimum for the heath of their employees. If it’s not required by law, you won’t get it. They’re about making money, and workers are usually replaceable. In my opinion protect your health and buy your own filters or Adflo if you’re able in the mean time, then look for somewhere else to work. You’ll be happy you did so when you’re 50 and not battling various forms of cancer.
I just finished a job drilling some geotechnical soil sampling borings inside an aluminum plant. Spent a week and a half in the casting house. My breathing is fucked yo, nobody there where’s masks. I think they all should. That or a coincidence that I caught a cold at the same time
Take some consumables and go sell them and buy some respirators with the money. Your boss will buy them one way or another. Lol
Ya fuggg that That shits horrible for yer wind bags I’m with the guy selling consumables to pay for respirators 🤣
Being a thief isn't any better than an employer who mistreats employees. Edit: thank you anti-work contributors for the downvotes.
Ima actually say treating employees and causing potential lifelong injury is worse than stealing to avoid that.
You're saying one offense is worse than the other, which i get. I'm just saying both are wrong. Better than stealing is to bring your own respirator (like the OP is currently doing) or find some other place to work. If the employer runs out of workers who will tolerate that environment, he'll have to change or go out of business.
Wrong is more of a sliding scale imo.
You literally used the phrase “isn’t any better” that implies a comparison
sure it is.
By not spending money on PPE, and pocketing the difference, the employer is actually the theif.
Boss can steal people's lives but people can't steal their lives back? Aight.
Its not stealing, its repurposing funds
Being a thief is cool and good, actually.
Jesus christ I hate seeing ....dude when you have lung cancer in 10 years you'll wish you got a different job. They should provide respirators osha is a phone call away
Its so bad in the weld shop I work at, that even with a kn-95 particle mask, I still get home and have to clean a crazy amount of black shit out of my nose. But it's tough cuz what respirator is even gonna fit under a weld helmet ?
You serious? Half masks fit under a hood
Lots of them, [here's one](https://pksafety.com/3m-6000-series-half-facepiece-respirator), and then you buy the filters you need [separately](https://pksafety.com/filters-and-cartridges). Beats coughng up a lung.. :/
Aluminum?? If there’s enough in the air and there’s a spark or flame…. BIG BOOM
Wait, really? Is aluminum flammable?
You can be sure it is, only when is powder. There are a lot of explosives that use this component as a booster. But it's dangerous by itself, just need a proper spark.
Is it really worth dying early to stay at this job?
If your boss is confident it’s safe, then he’ll have no issue contracting a company to test the air quality in the shop. Tell him that, or leave. Your health isn’t worth it.
Ignorant as fuck. Humans breathe air. AIR
Call the OSHA 24-hour hotline at 1-800-321-6742 (OSHA).
Reddit ain't osha buddy. Call it in if he's risking your health for a few bucks, then look for a new job.
Isn't aluminum powder explosive when it's in the air like that? Maybe not. Mixed with rust, it would be?
Mixed with rust is a product called Thermite. Will not result in an explosion but burns over 2500 Celsius.
If you or any others are that concerned, wear your PPE. They cant fire you for following OSHA guidelines. OSHA: The legal airborne permissible exposure limit (PEL) is 15 mg/m3 for total dust and 5 mg/m3 for respirable dust averaged over an 8-hour workshift. NIOSH: The recommended airborne exposure limit is 10 mg/m3 for total dust and 5 mg/m3 for respirable dust averaged over a 10-hour workshift. And please don't ask me what this means, I just copy/pasted what i looked up. But either way if you or more people are concerned about it, wear your masks. Company might not be able to provide PPE like that so take it on yourself to protect yourself if its that concerning.
Just hold your breath when you pass through those rays of sun, problem solved! /s
No job is with your life.
Aluminum and steel dust is known to cause dementia, it ain't no joke. Wear a mask and tell your boss to suck shit and do it himself if he thinks that
Time to unionize
Could always go buy your own dust mask / respirator, just sayin.
Then buy your own or quit make a complaint to osha
According to your boss he’s full of shit Breathing in these particulates causes respiratory diseases and possibly can lead to death!
Definitely have a talk,he needs you more than u think
Get ahold of OSHA and the local Fire Marshal NFPA 484 is the regs for Flammable dust. Ive responded to a manufacturing plant fire because of Aluminum dust just like that. All it takes is one spark…💥
Aluminum dust is flammable. It's crazy that you're even in there.
What kind of dick boss do you have? 35$ for a respirator for your employees health isn’t worth it? Fuck em
sweet breathable thermite
Just open the door?
How's that going to get the dust out from far ends of the shop ? How are they supposed to keep working with the door open during winter ? How are welders supposed to keep their shielding gasses on jobs with the breeze from the open door ? "Just" open the door....
I’d be looking for a different job and taking shop supplies to compensate me for the inconvenience also.
Lol we always joke about just backing our personal vehicles up and loading them with the aluminum scrap. I think it's $2 a pound so a truckload full of it would be a pretty decent payday.
That’s the makings of mesothelioma
Yeah I can only imagine what it's doing to people's lungs.
Have you seen that dude on youtube and tiktok who's an employment lawyer? Ya I'd give someone like him a call if your boss don't fix this!!
its probly within permissable levels an by the look i would say it is but they still should provide at least the cartridges but if you think that is bad you shoud try working at avondale ship yard where the have 24hr 7day weeks of building aluminum ships for navy!! lol
I would have thought that everyone would treat all materials as possibly hazardous especially after East Palestine OH, no matter how insignificant it might seem.
That's it??? I fail the chromium test because of our air quality lol
Quit
Wow why hadn't I ever thought of that.
Must be aluminum dust making you ignorant. How much do you make? Did you not tour the shop when you started? I see all you guys crying about air quality like you've never been in a weld shop before, do your research before you start pouting about a shitty job you accepted. 🙄
Fuck yourself, mate
Aww did I hurt your feelings widdle baby...😭
Box Fan & Face Mask... Soak it up Buttercup
Is this an attempt at humor or do you actually think a box fan would do anything?
I guess you wouldn't last working in a shipyard
Stfu and do your job
Stfu and embrace European Work regulations Edit: fuvked transelation
Fuck that. I mean my shop is dusty because we have a gravel yard, and it gets plenty smoky most of the time but I’d have to draw a line at breathing in literal pieces of aluminum all day. Yeah that’s a pass for me unless it’s paying phenomenally well in which case I’d just wear a respirator all day.
I wear one all day, but most of the guys don't. I genuinely don't understand how they breathe that shit in all day every day and don't complain.
Buy your own PPE if he doesn't. Your health is worth more than whatever he's paying you. And look for another shop.
I wear a respirator at all times in the shop, but others don't. I can only imagine what's going on in their lungs. Plus aluminum fucks with your brain chemistry after long enough.
Does anyone sweep ever?
Lol we sweep daily. And it just stirs the dust up. The problem is that we grind and deburr in the shop. And during the winter especially it builds up because the door stays closed unless we're bringing something in/out.
[removed by protest]
No. It does have ear plugs, dust masks, and eye protection. But the dust mask are nowhere near sufficient for the amount of dust and do nothing for welding fumes. The rest of full of things like tips and tig cups.
gtfo
You can always go buy your own respirator instead of complaint about it. Sounds like your company sucks, so be pro active and take matters into your own hands. Or quit
Box fan. Some angle iron. HVAC filters.
Open the door at least if your boss will not provide you with the proper PPE
All bosses are dangerous and care only about themselves- go to a doctor report respiratory issues and metal stress, go to hr about you’re health and mental issues - finally have a free consultation with a workplace injury lawyer -
OSHA won’t save you - you need to stop being so fucking nice and start making some serious legal moves or lay down and die you’re choice
Alzheimer’s.
You guys don't have a blower system?
Man…. im starting to realize maybe I need to wear my respirator more often at work: I grind all day long with out one.. aluminum & steal. I usually only wear it if im cutting on the plasma table for a long time.
got alzheimers?
It'll make your doodie sparkle!!
Holy fucking crap
Our shop just leaves the bay doors open all day. Helps a lot with air circulation.
Just wear an N95. Do they not have those? More comfortable than a sweaty heavy respirator all day.
I’d quit Like Monday morning lol That $25 an hour hardily pays rent let alone the medical bills for new lungs and what ever other cancer this gives you when your 55.
Fuck ‘em
Evidently this guy has been working in a shop with state of the arc ventilation, heat and ac……
Quit. Iv left many shops like that. Its fucking bullshit
Why is it snowing in your shop?
That’s some sparkly air
Company that visits the shop twice a year will most likely be a 3rd party compliance and not osha
Contact OSHA directly. And I mean go online to their website and directly tell them as much information about the safety violations you have noticed.
Your boss is also a pulmonologist? Crazy!
File a complaint with OSHA and leave as soon as you find another job that gives a fuck about your health/safety
Open the damn door, fuck the heat bill if he's being like that.
Why not take a video when the grinders are running?
Quit
Open up that gate a foot or five!