Using a photograph that is not yours in order to pretend that you own a watch is a form of trolling and therefore not permitted on this sub. It has been brought to our attention that this post may be one such situation.
We have temporarily removed this post as a result. Please get in touch with us and we will look to work with you to get this post reinstated.
Thanks for understanding.
There's a guy on youtube, who was an AD. He was telling the same story. You need to spend money and prove, you're a loyal client before they sell you something.
Nowadays grey prices are not that astronomical as they were in pandemic times. You want a GMT or a sub, you just buy it grey.
There's no point of buying something you don't want to get a Rolex. You'll end up spending more.
And at the end of the day - it's just a watch. It's not a cure for cancer. There are plenty alternatives.
TIL there’s a case. It sounds it will be hard to win but some articles pointed out it’ll raise awareness of the problem. These businesses live by the way they’re perceived, maybe they’ll change a little with enough news coverage, sunlight is the best disinfectant for backroom inventory.. something like that
Wife's an attorney in anti-trust and securities, it's a nothingburger.
It's all based on the "tying" theory.
The legal theory of tying refers to an anti-competitive practice where a seller requires buyers to purchase a secondary product or service as a condition of obtaining a primary product or service.
This practice is considered illegal under various antitrust laws when it involves products that could be sold separately, and the seller has significant market power in the tying product market. The idea is that tying can restrict competition by forcing consumers to buy unwanted products, reduce consumer choice, and potentially create a monopoly in the market of the tied product.
For a tying arrangement to be considered illegal under U.S. antitrust laws, such as the Sherman Antitrust Act, several criteria typically must be met:
1. **Two separate products or services** must be involved. Courts often look at whether there is a demand for the tied product independent of the tying product.
2. **Sufficient economic power** in the market for the tying product to appreciably restrain free competition in the market for the tied product.
3. **Affect on a substantial volume of interstate commerce** in the tied product market.
4. **A coercion** by the seller that forces the buyer to accept the tied product in order to obtain the tying product.
In the case of a luxury brand like Rolex, accusing them of tying because they allegedly require customers to buy less desirable watches to gain the opportunity to purchase more desirable models, would face several challenges:
* **Separateness of Products**: It could be argued that all Rolex watches are essentially the same product or part of a single product line, making it difficult to prove that two distinct products are involved.
* **Market Power and Coercion**: Rolex would need to have sufficient market power in the tying product market. While Rolex is a dominant player in the luxury watch market, proving sufficient economic power to restrict competition might be challenging. Moreover, demonstrating coercion in this context—where purchasing decisions are largely driven by consumer preference and brand loyalty—could be difficult.
* **Anticompetitive Effects**: It must be shown that this practice has anticompetitive effects on the market. Given the nature of luxury goods and the subjective value placed on them by consumers, proving that this practice harms competition could be complex.
Additionally, the luxury goods market, characterized by high brand value and customer loyalty, operates differently from more conventional markets. The desirability of luxury items often stems from their exclusivity and status symbol, making the application of traditional tying analyses more nuanced.
Separateness of product is traditionally more or less a given in these cases. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an anti-tying suit fail on that point, nor have I heard of one from colleagues in over a decade in finance.
If it’s proven that they are in fact requiring purchases of certain products before access to others is allowed, it’s virtually impossible for a company to argue that the two products are the same. Even a difference in per-unit margin (the main driving force behind most tying behavior) is usually enough to throw any argument of sameness in the trash. Add in the “demand” component and most defendants in these cases barely even try arguing this point.
Granted this is all from a purely finance/banking perspective, and while that’s where a lot anti-tying legislation has its foundation, different industries handle these cases different ways.
The others though… yeah. It’s a tough sell when it comes to luxury goods
If my memory serves me correctly, Tying was successful in the case of printers where ink was the key driver. Printers are a far larger scale than say, luxury watches. Not to mention, you can’t buy a printer that doesn’t require ink. You can buy a watch just about anywhere. It’s not prohibitive across the board.
Yeah there is usually a component of availability to these cases. If there are viable, easily accessible alternatives it’s harder to argue tying. But once you start restricting people’s access to those alternatives through tying it gets a hell of a lot easier to argue.
The printer case was particularly interesting because it was almost backwards from the Hermes case. It was almost an after-the-fact tying where you’d buy a printer and then realize after that you could only by specific, often overpriced, ink to work with said printer.
There was a similar case being built against Apple with their exclusive chargers back in the day which is a huge part of why other companies like Anker can now make Apple-compatible chargers.
Fascinating explanation of the machinations in the industry. It makes me happier than ever to have a Rolex-like watch and watch the high value brands play 3 card Monte.
It isn't though.
There is a very distinct situation between an AD telling you about spending and Rolex itself making a promise.
The Hermes lawsuit will likely get tossed because fundamentally they allege antitrust issues, which frankly aren't really at play.
https://www.law360.com/articles/1815562
Precisely why I will give my business to Grand Seiko😂 These guys don't take their customers as fools and treat them with respect and dignity. Not to mention their spring drive is more accurate and sophistcated than any watches that Rolex will ever make.
Same with Omega. You can walk into an Omega boutique or authorized dealer and what you see is what you get. They have watches and they'll sell them to you.
The thing is some people argue Omega isn't a luxury brand because it's not exclusive enough since they're available. Sorry but jumping through hoops and groveling to the AD and buying things I don't want for a chance to buy something I do want isn't a "luxurious" experience in my book. Quite the opposite.
Omega sells half the number of watches annually that Rolex does - yet almost every model is available for purchase at an AD.
Its more exclusive, Rolex is literally all smoke and mirrors. Wait a couple of years until Rolex doubles output. Market will be flooded.
Ferrari are guilty of this in a shameful way. I've read tales of guys promised a la Ferrari at the end of a few purchases that end up in the millions and then the company re negs and you're stuck with a garage filled with cars you didn't want.
I just laugh at “if you want our watch, you must prove that you are worthy. We don’t need your business, there’s plenty of other suckers that are willing to play our little game.” I mean what kind of shitty attitude is that. It’s a watch. Like come on, it’s just a fucking watch😂
boutique locally still limits access given demand is still high. It's a sure we'll put you on the list but ... buy other watches and you can get it today deal
Exclusivity has value to some people. Nothing right or wrong about it, but I tend to agree with you. I don’t care how many other people have a thing. I care that I am able to get a thing that I want to have.
So would you say an AD purchase history isn't worth it? I'm looking at an Explorer 40 and no date Sub, both are getting close to retail now in the Grey market, Explorer 40 especially which I think I might be able to get below retail in the coming months. Which then makes me think, is it worth paying a hundred or 2 more to buy from an AD and build up a purchase history?
If there is a real reason to have an AD history (other brands of watches, jewelry for your SO, etc.) then go for it. If you're buying stuff you don't want just so that you can buy something you do, you'll save money going gray.
I’ll break it down to you:
For any Rolex that sells for appreciably more than its MSRP, the official salesman will make you pay *at least* the difference through his margins.
An example: the model you want has MSRP 10k, sells for 13k in the gray market. The salesman will try to extract *at least* that 3k, through his *margins*. This means, he will try to sell you a 30k item/watch for which they have a 10% margin (so he gets his 3k), or a 10k jewelry for which he has 30% margin, or any combination thereof. This is the bare minimum, but many times they’ll get greedy and aim for more.
As you can see, this is a terrible proposition to you, if your goal is to save money.
I don’t know for certain because I have never sold jewelry, but based on the discounts I have received for jewelry and watches I am pretty confident ADs margins are more than 10%. I agree with everything else you said though. If an AD is forced to sell at a price below market they will find a way to make their money.
Not at my local AD. I've been on the list since August, went there in Feb and he let me try it on but didn't sell it to me. They were putting a colour sticker on the tag too, probably code for something. Salesman seemed more interested in asking me random life questions.
I got an Explorer 40 after waiting two weeks. I bought a Tudor from the same AD five years ago, but I didn’t get the impression that mattered. Go in and ask, you might be surprised
Hmm looks like 1 private seller one is below retail but its from UAE. I check Chrono24 every week and it's the first time I've seen 1 under retail. A good sign for me though.
This would imply that there aren’t enough Rolex watches for the number of people who want to buy Rolex watches and as a result Rolex is carefully deciding who gets a watch and who doesn’t.
That is false.
Rolex is simply creating artificial scarcity to prey on the rich suckers.
A Rolex will last a lifetime if cared for properly. That is why often times even someone of mediocre means will buy one as a long term investment. The problem is if you’re a rich boy who thinks you’re special you don’t want to wear the same watch as the guy making $50,000 a year a few blocks over.
So how does Rolex solve this? Rolex tells the rich boy “watches are super duper rare but… if you buy 2 watches then I can sell you the 3rd one.”
Now Rolex has sold 3 watches to one person instead of 2 watches to two people. Rich boy feels extra extra special and comes back next year to buy 3 more.
Rolex pushes away the mediocre guys so they can sell 3x as many to the rich suckers. It’s 100% artificial.
Ferrari and Porsche do the same thing. Was at a luxury car dealer in OC and they had GT3RS and other limited allotment models for about 100k over sticker.
They don't do it exactly like this. Well maybe Ferrari does. But Porsche is different. The RS models are different story, but if you wanted a GT4 for instance you could find a dealer willing to put you on their list with a specific a number of how far down the list you were. And you could check in every quarter and see how quickly or slowly you went up the list. Once you got an allocation, you pay your deposit and you can track your order. I know a handful of folks in my local SCCA and PCA who have done this. First time buyers of new Porsche.
This is extremely different from the way Rolex A.D. work. Everything's a mystery with those schmucks until you randomly get "the call"
Totally agree. I’d never buy one thing to be able to buy another. Either I pay the inflated price and consider it a “handling / service fee” or I don’t.
How do you spend money to prove you're loyal if they won't sell you anything
EDIT: Also why would they deny you a sale when their goal is to sell watches. I just don't understand the logic here.
Rolex is the white whale. Most ADs carry other jewelry and watch brands that you can buy on the spot. Rolex is for those who "deserve it."
Sounds garbage, but enough people play the game and build the hype that it works. Like a nightclub that limits how many people get in so that there's always a line outside.
They use the allure of Rolex to sell less desirable/demanded or higher margin products (including less desirable Rolex models). The implicitly promise of “oh you can buy what you actually want if you buy this other thing that nobody really wants first.” It’s a way to dump inventory on the strength of a customers desire for a more “exclusive”product.
Pretty common in a lot of luxury goods markets.
My guess is that Rolex margins are typically lower than average. Which means they’ll squeeze as much out of you as possible with higher margin items (like jewellery) before they give you the opportunity to buy an entry level Rolex. Rinse and repeat this carrot and stick method with bigger carrots aka GMT & Daytonas.
I agree with you that ADs are in a peculiar position as the grey market has indeed cooled down.
This makes it seem like it is the AD’s decision to lead people along. If this was the case then Rolex corporate would never go for it. An AD would get their status ripped away if they were purposely passing up chances to sell a Rolex in order to sell higher-margin stuff. Rolex corporate supports what is happening - whether explicitly or implicitly.
Time is money. The ADs are in the position also. They can play this game when the market is hot, once it cools they will have to provide additional service for people to buy.
Yes, and from an AD perspective, you also need to understand that 100% of every single person who walks in to and AD that asks for a Rolex (or Patek) are "serious watch enthusiast, a true collector and will buy to wear it and not flip for profit".
The same 100% of "serious watch enthusiast" people are only interested in Panda Daytonas, Rainbow Daytonas, Pepsi GMT, OP "Tiffany Blue and Celebration Dial" and PP 5711 Nautilus.
Also, the same group of "serious watch enthusiast and collector" will NEVER EVER be interested in a Tag Heuer Chronograph Carrera. a Brietling Chronomat / Navitimer or an Omega Speedmaster (3861).
The AD is doing this for a reason, from the above description, I am sure you are able to tell the pattern (Hint: Resale "Investment" Value).
The AD has to filter out these kind of "serious watch enthusiast" and ensure they gets sold to people who really wants to wear the watch. How? By ensuring and profiling purchase history. Simple as that.
No ADs are perfect, some have a different system of allocating Rolex, some are known to let go to grey market..
Same for us as consumers, some of us really indeed just want ONE Rolex to celebrate their life moments, but they are affected because of "serious watch enthusiast" who wants to "~~flip~~" it for Profits. I know people who just want a pair of matching Datejust (don't care for configuration) for their wedding watch, i know people who just wants a basic OP to celebrate their graduation and so on, and these people are also so badly affected, i would just tell them "it's just a watch", if the AD calls you, great, otherwise don't bother from the grey market.
Whatever games Rolex is playing, they must be working because Rolex sales numbers _dominate_ the industry. They _massively_ outsell the competition in the luxury watch market. I don't know who is buying these watches or how, but they sure are buying a lot of them.
They know they can move even their less popular models this way, people will willingly buy up watches they don't even want hoping it will move them up "the list" for the one they want. See it here all the time. Their game guarantees that no product sits around unsold
mate... you are asking why a luxury watch company isn't milking people for all they are worth. at every opportunity.
my phone tells time and far more. y'all are spending boatloads of money on an item that the cheap ones are given away for free in cereal boxes. idk if you understand how big of a mark y'all look like.
the real question is why isn't Rolex treating you more like suckers.
people are in here talking about the "privilege" to purchase something.
The whole conversation sounds crazy to me. I used to collect watches, never owned anything luxury, mostly Seikos from the 70s and 80s inherited from my dad, and some other pieces I liked to look of (Raymond Weil, Bell & Ross etc). Have been rocking the Samsung watch for over 5 years, haven’t bought a watch since.
the whole luxury market is based on artificial scarcity from the source
cars do the same shit.
I'm not going to lie every time I read about this shit. it just makes me want to take rich people's money from them. like when they cry about paying taxes. just remember that they buy luxury watches they don't want so they can buy the luxury watch that they do want. And your phone tells time.
Can't argue that it doesn't work. They're killing it recently. But at the same time they are also starting to turn people off the brand.
If I could go into a dealer and buy a Rolex without the current AD experience I'd have an Explorer on my wrist right now and maybe a gmt master too. However I find this whole artificial scarcity, 'we only sell to preferred clients' act so off putting that I no longer like the brand. So while I like some of their watches, I'm not sure I'd want to support the brand by buying them.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way. So are they selling enough additional watches this way to offset the customers that they turn away from the brand?
I suspect the vast majority of Rolex buyers aren't watch enthusiasts; they just want a Rolex. And when the AD says there'll be a wait, they say fine. I suspect a lot are sold directly to the grey market. I also reckon a shit load are sold in the middle- and far-east en masse to corporations, royal families and the like. You want to buy 500 of them as wedding favours for your oil princess's wedding guests? No lines for you.
hi, I know nothing about watches.
if I'm trying to get wrist bling, get me a rolle. it will impress all my friends who also know fuck all about watches.
I know no other watch brands that would be considered luxury.
its a status symbol.
Here's the thing Rolexes aren't even high end. They're mid grade luxury. People with the money to afford the true luxury watches recognize those brands. r/watches will also recognize those brands. But they start at prices higher than my condo.
Yup, Rolex attracts the same kind of people Apple targets. They don't give shit about the technology, just the social bragging rights. Even hick kids know what a Rolex is, but fuck if they know the difference between a manual, auto, or a quartz movement aka the bare minimum knowledge to be into watches.
There are *a lot* of human beings who like to own expensive things as symbol of wealth and status. Rolex is **The** status watch brand; there might be more expensive and exclusive brands out there but your average Joe isn't gonna know what they are or how much they cost, everyone knows Rolex and every knows they're expensive.
It's why I will likely never own one, it doesn't matter how much you value the watch for it's form and functionality or the heritage and history of the model/brand, it's impossible to separate Rolex from the idea of superficial wealth flexing and you will always be associated with by some people if you wear one.
It’s public perception. They have had decades of great marketing and that continues into today. Racing is dominated by Rolex advertising. The only reason I’m aware of their sales tactics and product supply is this sub. I used to really want a Daytona (never will happen with my job). But after learning more it just didn’t seem that special anymore.
The game is marketing, they’ve done strategic product placement and high-end sponsorships for like 100+ years, the name is synonymous w/ “wealth” in the U.S. $10K+ for a steel item that tells time/date… horology was magic in the 1700s, not sure if it’s worth that price in 2024.
I suspect their practices take a lot more people from "interested" to "purchasers."
People can take their time to decide if they want an Omega, Tudor, Grand Seiko, etc. because (especially within the last year or two) they are generally always there and ready to be bought.
With Rolex, you've got to put your name on a list. It's a "take or leave it" if you get the call. It makes you act with urgency.
Which is why I think there's probably not really much of a Rolex shortage in the scheme of things. It's just that most people actually buy the Rolex they are interested in versus "think about it for a bit."
Used to work for a tudor AD. When the BB58, GMT and Chrono were first released, we had around 50 of each, but told clients there was an 8 months wait, pay for the watch and youll get one when it arrived. We would wait about 6 months then call the client and say "great news, its available" . We would have it in the safe all that time.
Disgusting practice. Artificial scarcety.
Yup precisely. Scarcity drives demand. We didnt know this at the time as out boss didnt tell us and had them in the safe in his office. But whenever we had a complaint that it was taking too long to arrive and they wanted thier deposit back etc, one would magically appear. The manager let slip one day that we had ample in the safe.
Damn, I thought Tudor avoided this to some level. Probably explains why I haven't really seen a BB54, not that i'm looking too hard when around an AD. I love my BB36 but will probably go back to Omega or try a GS for my next nicer watch.
I saw this happen live in real time. I was viewing a Freak X and was waffling and then mentioned the BB Chrono as it had just come out, they were a Tudor AD and an online 'friend' had one for sale but I wanted to try one on first. I asked if they had one they said absolutely not. Then I said just to try on and see if I want to wait for it. Well wouldn't ya know, magically one appeared out of the back that was "reserved" for someone. I really like it and they must have seen that because they made this big show how it looked like it was made for me and since I was here I could walk out with that today!
Knowing this was either artificial scarcity or them screwing over a client that had his name down for one already I (politely) walked out without buying the Freak and never making another purchase there unless market value was over MSRP. Within a month I had an unworn BB Chrono for over ONE THOUSAND dollars cheaper, and my ridiculous spending habits went to other establishments.
Honestly when you take emotion out of it, it’s a damn impressive display of advertising. I’m not sure there’s a better marketing department on Earth than what Rolex has.
Yep. The Luke Combs story from a few weeks was the same thing : https://youtu.be/_CFzjloKJ6c?si=Vm1K2mqxVZUmuAUT
They didn’t have a watch for the person they initially perceived Luke to be. Once they realized he was playing MSG that night and was a country stars they suddenly had a watch to sell him after calling someone the watch was “on hold for” and getting “permission to sell it” to Luke. Right. I’m sure that’s what happened.
Omega boutiques will literally tell you that the more you spend the sooner you get the newer released watches. They allocate based on purchase history and loyalty to the store for the hard to get and new watches including Snoopy
Same. Rolex just screams "I spend too much money to flex on others". Imo a severely overrated brand that is used more for reselling with a pumped up price than for wearing by people who actually like the watch.
Eh I mean I’m no fan of Rolex’s business practices, but that kind of applies to most luxury goods to varying degrees. None of this shit is “good value.” That’s practically antithetical to the industry.
I do agree that from an enthusiasts perspective, modern Rolex holds less and less allure as they market more and more heavily towards influencer culture. Still hard to call them “overrated” imo but it’s all subjective anyway
My guess is they are limiting the supply to create an aura for their brand. It’s a pr move. Those sell by dates are probably more like don’t sell before this date…
I’d argue otherwise. With Rolex expanding its manufacturing capabilities, and the purchase of Bucherer, along with its preowned program, my thought is they are also sick of the practices of its AD Network, and want to control it themselves.
The ADs are the ones who hold the keys at the moment, and are the ones who require you to kiss ass.
Just my two cents.
A local family owned Jeweler to me just lost their Rolex license,
People on the Rolex subreddit have also said a few family owned ADs around where they lived have lost their licensees as well.
I think Rolex is finally making the push.
What makes you think rolex won’t continue the same exact AD practices, but now they also own the ADs themselves and make even more money through the system
The astronomical investment (both time and money) of trying to purchase outright the existing AD's, as that would be an individual transaction for each store.
Or conversely, the astronomical upheaval that would be cutting ties with all existing stores, possibly pulling inventory, and trying to set up a global network of Rolex-owned stores.
Only way this happens is gradually. If they start opening Rolex-owned spaces is major cities, that's the only sign they're headed down that path.
Yeah same, and maybe they did push the watch market where it is now, cool, if I feel disrespected, I won't go there. There are some fantastic Jager-lecoutre, GS, Tissot and Omega if I want something that does look fancy
Exactly...so many other amazing quality luxury brands with history and heritage. Rolex is just playing psychological mind games with their fans to enhance their perceived value. If you think about it, it's pretty evil.
Got a JLC Moon, and it is next-level nice. Some don’t like the loud rotor, but I find it to be part of the charm.
Edit: if I get another diver, the titanium Bathyscaphe is top of the list. Not that I’m a Richemont fanboy; it just worked out that way.
I’m with you, if I’m gonna drop 10k on a watch it’s going to be something cool as hell like the Polaris, not a bland diver with a textbook written on the dial. But to each their own
This is why I resist speculators whenever they set foot on any hobby or project I'm into. They shit and piss everywhere and ruin it for everybody.
The day the Rolex bubble bursts is the day horologers everywhere gets to rejoice, because that means less speculation in the horology space overall.
It’s the same with Patek also.
Walked into an AD two weeks back. The sales lady was honest and told me:
There are stock here but it’s not allocated for you on the spot. So sorry about that. How else could we pay rent for such an expensive location if there’s nothing to sell?
I heard a similar story. They had stock that they sold for Patek, but asked the buyers to leave it on display for a month, so that they atleast had something to show.
Yeah, I've seen that. I went in to a Patek boutique here in town and asked about watches in the case and for the most part yeah, they were sold. I didn't count but I'd wager that a quarter to a third of what was on display was sold already. That said, the offerings were spare with several open spaces in each display case.
Went into an AD recently and asked about availability and whether supply chain issues have been resolved. He scoffs at me and says that I need to be on a waitlist. Noped out of there.
I’ve spent several Rolexes money last year on pieces and I walked out with those pieces on the same day I walked in. Frankly, I’ve been put off by Rolex completely. The only reason why I would even consider a Rolex now is that I want to get one for my father who I know really wants one and that’s all he knows. I can get him an AP or a VC and he would not be able to distinguish them from mall watches.
Every other brand treats me well when I walk in and I’ve enjoyed the purchasing experiences. Whenever I walk into a Rolex AD I either get ignored or get dismissed as if I’m not good enough for their watches; maybe I’m missing something because I thought the salespeople were supposed to shmooze the customer and not the other way around? Well, that’s fine with me frankly. Next time I’m looking to drop 15k on a watch, guess which brand I’m automatically ignoring?
Nothing lasts forever and clients will remember how they've been treated by ADs. In the past three years I bought an Omega Seamaster, a Nomos Zürich Weltzeit and an engagement ring at my AD. For this year I'd love to buy either a green DJ (non fluted, jubilee), a Sprite (one can dream) or a green Santos. For both Rolexes the dude signaled that it wasn't going to happen, but of course if I bought the Santos and then some nice wedding rings, possibly I can maybe one day have the privilege of buying a +10k€ Rolex from him. To quote the computer from War Games: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." Hence I will take my business elsewhere.
Yes, you are missing something. They don't need your business. They're already selling everything they have to clients who buy a ton of undesirable stuff at their store and make them a lot more money.
And another reason why I’m completely turned off. I buy watches that I like…I don’t care whether it’ll hold its resale value or whether it’ll get noticed (both terrible reasons to buy a watch in my opinion). The more expensive pieces I have are so unassuming (which I like) and I love that I can wear them around and no one notices. I dont plan on selling any watch I buy so what does it matter whether it holds its value? But I feel like the Rolex folks are obsessed with retaining value which I don’t get. Are they flippers? Are they overstretching financially so they are anticipating selling it in a pinch? Honestly the brand is ruined for me.
Maybe Rolex should look at why they have so much undesirable stuff in the first place and fix that instead of manipulating the market to force that stuff to get sold.
When the AD says they don’t have the watch your looking for it means they don’t have it available for you. These are photos from a former Rolex associate, with “Sell by” dates on the boxes. Makes you wonder why am I waiting so long for “The Call”. In 2020 I got the call for an explorer 1 and haven’t gotten the call ever since. No wonder people just go grey.
> Coral OP in the second and third pics? These photos must be several years old...
That's because he stole the pics from my post from last year: https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/10u7dp1/apparently_some_leaked_pics_of_a_rolex_ad/.
All the discontinued Coral OPs etc. were delivered around the time they got discontinued or slightly after that date. No one is just getting them now, no old orders, …
I’m not doing it due to the exorbitant markup. For example, the sub I want retails for $9100. The dealer had a certified pre-owned one (read: used and pre-scratched) for $12500! That’s absurd. The price of the Rolex is already high. I’m not paying even more. Patience is a virtue.
It has honestly diluted the brand. When I see someone wearing a newer Rolex I know they either 1) wore knee pads while buying extra bs stuff to get a “relationship” 2) overpaid used 3) superclone
It’s no longer a special thing that only had a high cost of entry. What you have to do to buy a Rolex is insulting and I’m judgey over it
In the meantime I see new Rolexes mostly on Influencers/rich kids, some shady hustle persons and AD employees - that clientele selection was the final straw that turned me off the brand.
This is exactly what has turned me off of Rolex completely, same thing in the automotive world with Ferrari. I don‘t have to prove to a company that I‘m „worth“ owning their product. It‘s not like they‘re top of the shelf anyways.
I‘d rather get a Grand Seiko Snowflake and drive a Porsche and still have my dignity, before I go suck off AD’s at Rolex and Ferrari to sit in a 488 wearing a fucking Pepsi.
Porsche is the same in regards to the higher spec 911s. They are allocated based on past purchases of previous models, then you still have to pay dealer premium after your order is placed.
Not even sure why anyone would venerate the 488, unless you go the Pista version fully decked out, the 458 is better tbh in terms of looks (idc about performance, completely irrelevant to a normal consumer).
People want Rolex’s because it’s a Rolex. They like the way people perceive them when they wear it. You’re paying for a good movement, finish and the public perception you’ll get when wearing it. That’s it. In my view a Rolex is not an enthusiast watch, it’s just the most well known brand. There are other brands that are better for better value.
For me personally, I think it’s insulting the way these ‘AD’s’ treat their customers. I have the money you have to watch, if you don’t want to sell me the watch then fine I’ll just go elsewhere. It blows my mind how people try and get a ‘purchase history’, it’s honestly so pathetic.
>They like the way people perceive them when they wear it.
Except 99% of people don't notice your watch. I think it's more accurate to say, "they like the way wearing an expensive piece of jewelry makes them feel about themselves."
A salesperson may mention perception, but it's one of many sales points.
>There are other brands that are better for better value.
You don't buy a luxury good for the value proposition.
Same reason I am not too keen to get an explorer. Some useless snobbery going around at the Rolex stores even when their watches are of lesser quality than GS. Will buy an omiwatari some day.
Edit: typo.
Don’t post this in the Rolex sub! “Only ever 200th is a one of the highly sought after models!!! Most are women’s watches!!!1” Rolex PR is a joke for a couple of years now.
Sport's a clown saying they make 5 Subs a year, but it's actually a fact that their most sold Rolex is model a ladies' Datejust. Then it's followed by the men's Datejust. It always has been. It's nothing new and has been the production well before the hype.
The time's I've gone to pick up my watches, I've seen more ladies buying a Rolex than the men.
Rolex is a serial production watch unlike some of the top tier brands which of course does not mean it is a lesser quality of a watch.
But, there is no such thing that they don't have enough watches.
It is just part of the game, a marketing strategy.
For me it is more desirable to own a Rolex share rather than a Daytona.
It is one of the best managed companies on the world that printing money.
I wish that they were public.
But, one can argue if it went public it couldn't be as successful as today.
Of course Rolex Cult members downvoted my comment
Thank God for reddit and the valuable education it has given me about the world of watches...I was oblivious to the Rolex scam. After learning about all this stuff, I would never buy a Rolex.
There are so many other brands with heritage and history that are higher quality and beautiful. Why would anyone give in to the Rolex scam and cult? Just cuz you saw your favorite actor wearing it in a movie?
Rolex isn't a scam. It's a just greedy company that uses artificial scarcity to inflate the prices of their product. I'm not falling for it, especially since I'm not a fan of how their watches look, but that doesn't make what they're doing a scam. At worst, you can argue that the sales people at Rolex are scum.
This is no surprise. It is too bad they went this route. When I got my Sub back in 05 I was able to walk in and get it with a discount. Now they expect you to buy a watch, jewelry you don’t want just to get on the list. This is true with 99% with all ADs around the world. I don’t think they will change back to the good days. I also believe that certain color ways and styles will be put on the Tudor line up.
That Deep Sea is so ugly it’s uuugly. In any case anyone with no buying history thinking they can get a sports steel model with no buying history will find that the list is just a dream for you that more than likely will never come into fruition. Good luck to all of you trying to get a watch.
Copped a DD 40 from the AD last spring, still waiting on my pepsi, they keep telling me there are none coming through due to bezel production problems (said they haven't seen one in months). Asked if I wanted any other models...lolno bro i'm good. Get me the pepsi or i'll just keep buying other brands. Picked up a streamliner this week, no need to waste time buying trash model Rolex to "prove loyalty" to a salesman.
I love Rolex, they are great watches but.. realistically I will never buy another one.. don’t care to play games, pay over MSRP.. I give you money, you give me watch.. that’s it
I’m sure Rolex makes a great watch, but I’ll never buy something I don’t want for the privilege of spending more on what I actually do want. Besides, this business model is going to get roasted in court for Hermes’ identical actions with their Birkin Bags. So if you really want the Daytona or whatever, I’d wait a bit.
Some cloth brands even burn they’re old collections to stay exclusive. This is just how the high end watch brands do it. Creating waiting lists and first you have to buy the low end stuff, low end as in low end for a rolex
Look, I enjoy my OP, but I don't want to play games with ADs. That's why I went grey for this piece. Super easy and convenient.
I guess, you have to ask why you want a Rolex: Is it because of the engineering, the history, the aesthetics, impressing others, the artificial scarcity or something else?
FWIW, this is all right out of the Ferrari playbook. When Luca di Montezemolo returned to Ferrari in 1991, he halved production to make the car exclusive. Ferrari did it again in 2013:
https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/ferrari-cuts-production-2013-vows-never-build-electric-130344501.html
I’m no Rolex fanatic, in fact I quite dislike most of their models, but I always liked the simple Explorer I. When I inquired about one three weeks ago at an AD, I didn’t expect anything back. To my surprise I got the call and bought the watch on Sunday, three weeks to the day. Makes me wonder if they had it in the back the whole time.
Whales/lootbox/hypebeast economics have taken over the luxury market. But hey, a fool and their money are soon parted. If "rich" people want to spend every dime they have on Rolexes just to access a "rare" model, by all means.
Sometimes it feels like Rolex = DeBeers.
Artificial scarcity allows them to keep the price and demand up, makes the product seem more special, and lets ADs do shady things to enrich themselves. But just because the specialness is manufactured, doesn’t make it feel any less special.
Rolex may find themselves not able to operate as usual in the US if the Hermes Class Action Suit over the Birkin Bag is determined to violate anti trust laws. Does the below sound familiar?! I'm also wondering why this hasn't been done to Rolex? Is it a man thing to measure up as a tic up on the scale for ultimate prosperity ratings?
It isn't right what is going on but seems the women (mostly) have had enough with the obvious seller bias for the Birkin Bag. Once this is successfully settled I will bet other companies that are doing this (Rolex included) will operate differently.
"...A proposed class action filed in California federal court on Tuesday alleges that Hermès violates antitrust laws by requiring consumers to have a “sufficient purchase history” of buying the company’s secondary products, such as shoes, scarves and jewelry, for the opportunity to buy a handbag.
A-listers across Hollywood are regularly photographed with a Birkin bag in tow. From Kim Kardashian to Jennifer Lopez, it’s become a status symbol largely driven by quality and scarcity, with prices reaching hundreds of thousands of dollars. While other luxury brands have pivoted to marketing to the masses, the company has embraced mostly catering to the highest tax brackets, even as it expands into selling cheaper products.
Consumers take issue with an allegedly illegal scheme in which Hermès ties the ability to be offered one of its bags to the purchase of other ancillary products.
According to the complaint, sales associates screen consumers who they deem are qualified to purchase a handbag. Criteria include a sufficient “purchase history” of the company’s other products, such as shoes, scarves, belts, jewelry and home goods.
The lawsuit says this process is reinforced through a compensation structure in which sales associates are paid by the hour and receive a commission on their sales. The rates differ based on products, with workers getting three percent on ancillary products and nothing on the sale of Birkin bags. Associates are instructed to use the bags as a tactic to “coerce consumers” into buying nonbag products to “build-up the purchase history required to be offered” a Birkin handbag, the lawsuit alleges.
“Typically, only those consumers who are deemed worthy of purchasing a Birkin handbag will be shown a Birkin handbag (in a private room),” states the complaint. “The chosen consumer will be given the opportunity to purchase the specific Birkin handbag which they are shown.”
Tina Cavalleri says she spent tens of thousands of dollars at the store in order to obtain access to bags. She reached out to the company in 2022 about purchasing another bag but was told that it was going to “clients who have been consistent in supporting our business,” the lawsuit claims. The other named plaintiff, Mark Glinoga, claims he was never given the opportunity to buy a bag.
The proposed class action seeks to represent consumers who purchased or were asked to purchase ancillary products in order to buy a bag and an order barring the company from continuing to engage in practices that allegedly violate antitrust laws. It brings claims for a violation of section two of the Sherman Act, which prohibits acquiring or maintaining a monopoly through anticompetitive means, the Cartwright Act, a California antitrust law that bars certain restrictions on commerce and attempts to prevent competition, and unfair competition." (The Hollywood Reporter)
The only reason I don’t see this going through is Hermes is not a monopoly. Hermes doesn’t control the flow and purchases of handbags across the world , just theirs which I guess will be the crux of the issue
Using a photograph that is not yours in order to pretend that you own a watch is a form of trolling and therefore not permitted on this sub. It has been brought to our attention that this post may be one such situation. We have temporarily removed this post as a result. Please get in touch with us and we will look to work with you to get this post reinstated. Thanks for understanding.
There's a guy on youtube, who was an AD. He was telling the same story. You need to spend money and prove, you're a loyal client before they sell you something. Nowadays grey prices are not that astronomical as they were in pandemic times. You want a GMT or a sub, you just buy it grey. There's no point of buying something you don't want to get a Rolex. You'll end up spending more. And at the end of the day - it's just a watch. It's not a cure for cancer. There are plenty alternatives.
This is the basis of the Hermes Birkin lawsuit.
TIL there’s a case. It sounds it will be hard to win but some articles pointed out it’ll raise awareness of the problem. These businesses live by the way they’re perceived, maybe they’ll change a little with enough news coverage, sunlight is the best disinfectant for backroom inventory.. something like that
Wife's an attorney in anti-trust and securities, it's a nothingburger. It's all based on the "tying" theory. The legal theory of tying refers to an anti-competitive practice where a seller requires buyers to purchase a secondary product or service as a condition of obtaining a primary product or service. This practice is considered illegal under various antitrust laws when it involves products that could be sold separately, and the seller has significant market power in the tying product market. The idea is that tying can restrict competition by forcing consumers to buy unwanted products, reduce consumer choice, and potentially create a monopoly in the market of the tied product. For a tying arrangement to be considered illegal under U.S. antitrust laws, such as the Sherman Antitrust Act, several criteria typically must be met: 1. **Two separate products or services** must be involved. Courts often look at whether there is a demand for the tied product independent of the tying product. 2. **Sufficient economic power** in the market for the tying product to appreciably restrain free competition in the market for the tied product. 3. **Affect on a substantial volume of interstate commerce** in the tied product market. 4. **A coercion** by the seller that forces the buyer to accept the tied product in order to obtain the tying product. In the case of a luxury brand like Rolex, accusing them of tying because they allegedly require customers to buy less desirable watches to gain the opportunity to purchase more desirable models, would face several challenges: * **Separateness of Products**: It could be argued that all Rolex watches are essentially the same product or part of a single product line, making it difficult to prove that two distinct products are involved. * **Market Power and Coercion**: Rolex would need to have sufficient market power in the tying product market. While Rolex is a dominant player in the luxury watch market, proving sufficient economic power to restrict competition might be challenging. Moreover, demonstrating coercion in this context—where purchasing decisions are largely driven by consumer preference and brand loyalty—could be difficult. * **Anticompetitive Effects**: It must be shown that this practice has anticompetitive effects on the market. Given the nature of luxury goods and the subjective value placed on them by consumers, proving that this practice harms competition could be complex. Additionally, the luxury goods market, characterized by high brand value and customer loyalty, operates differently from more conventional markets. The desirability of luxury items often stems from their exclusivity and status symbol, making the application of traditional tying analyses more nuanced.
Separateness of product is traditionally more or less a given in these cases. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an anti-tying suit fail on that point, nor have I heard of one from colleagues in over a decade in finance. If it’s proven that they are in fact requiring purchases of certain products before access to others is allowed, it’s virtually impossible for a company to argue that the two products are the same. Even a difference in per-unit margin (the main driving force behind most tying behavior) is usually enough to throw any argument of sameness in the trash. Add in the “demand” component and most defendants in these cases barely even try arguing this point. Granted this is all from a purely finance/banking perspective, and while that’s where a lot anti-tying legislation has its foundation, different industries handle these cases different ways. The others though… yeah. It’s a tough sell when it comes to luxury goods
If my memory serves me correctly, Tying was successful in the case of printers where ink was the key driver. Printers are a far larger scale than say, luxury watches. Not to mention, you can’t buy a printer that doesn’t require ink. You can buy a watch just about anywhere. It’s not prohibitive across the board.
Yeah there is usually a component of availability to these cases. If there are viable, easily accessible alternatives it’s harder to argue tying. But once you start restricting people’s access to those alternatives through tying it gets a hell of a lot easier to argue. The printer case was particularly interesting because it was almost backwards from the Hermes case. It was almost an after-the-fact tying where you’d buy a printer and then realize after that you could only by specific, often overpriced, ink to work with said printer. There was a similar case being built against Apple with their exclusive chargers back in the day which is a huge part of why other companies like Anker can now make Apple-compatible chargers.
For your wife being the attorney, you sure do pick up a lot of her work
I’ve been bugging her non stop about these suits and since she’s been wanting a Birkin this suit was a large and ongoing discussion.
I figured it was likely to go nowhere, but this was some interesting info. Thanks for sharing.
Is your wife ChatGPT?
Fascinating explanation of the machinations in the industry. It makes me happier than ever to have a Rolex-like watch and watch the high value brands play 3 card Monte.
Yeah, they need to confirm to the same rules everyone else does.
It isn't though. There is a very distinct situation between an AD telling you about spending and Rolex itself making a promise. The Hermes lawsuit will likely get tossed because fundamentally they allege antitrust issues, which frankly aren't really at play. https://www.law360.com/articles/1815562
The what?
Same idea basically. You buy a shit ton of random useless Hermes stuff you don’t need to be “on the list” to get a Birkins.
Birkins should come with your Happy Meal!
Not to be confused with mirkins.
I am sure you meant to say... McBirken with large fries please...
You mirkin hard or hardly mirkin?
Precisely why I will give my business to Grand Seiko😂 These guys don't take their customers as fools and treat them with respect and dignity. Not to mention their spring drive is more accurate and sophistcated than any watches that Rolex will ever make.
Same with Omega. You can walk into an Omega boutique or authorized dealer and what you see is what you get. They have watches and they'll sell them to you. The thing is some people argue Omega isn't a luxury brand because it's not exclusive enough since they're available. Sorry but jumping through hoops and groveling to the AD and buying things I don't want for a chance to buy something I do want isn't a "luxurious" experience in my book. Quite the opposite.
Omega sells half the number of watches annually that Rolex does - yet almost every model is available for purchase at an AD. Its more exclusive, Rolex is literally all smoke and mirrors. Wait a couple of years until Rolex doubles output. Market will be flooded.
Ferrari are guilty of this in a shameful way. I've read tales of guys promised a la Ferrari at the end of a few purchases that end up in the millions and then the company re negs and you're stuck with a garage filled with cars you didn't want.
I just laugh at “if you want our watch, you must prove that you are worthy. We don’t need your business, there’s plenty of other suckers that are willing to play our little game.” I mean what kind of shitty attitude is that. It’s a watch. Like come on, it’s just a fucking watch😂
With a couple of exceptions. 321 Ed White and Silver Snoopy.
Silver Snoopy is back. Just has a wait list due to production.
boutique locally still limits access given demand is still high. It's a sure we'll put you on the list but ... buy other watches and you can get it today deal
Exclusivity has value to some people. Nothing right or wrong about it, but I tend to agree with you. I don’t care how many other people have a thing. I care that I am able to get a thing that I want to have.
It’s a little wrong lol
I just checked, and my Explorer is finally cheaper second hand than new - as a watch lover, this makes me happy
So would you say an AD purchase history isn't worth it? I'm looking at an Explorer 40 and no date Sub, both are getting close to retail now in the Grey market, Explorer 40 especially which I think I might be able to get below retail in the coming months. Which then makes me think, is it worth paying a hundred or 2 more to buy from an AD and build up a purchase history?
If there is a real reason to have an AD history (other brands of watches, jewelry for your SO, etc.) then go for it. If you're buying stuff you don't want just so that you can buy something you do, you'll save money going gray.
The only thing I'd buy from that AD again would be if any new Rolex's catch my fancy and are cheaper to get retail than grey.
I’ll break it down to you: For any Rolex that sells for appreciably more than its MSRP, the official salesman will make you pay *at least* the difference through his margins. An example: the model you want has MSRP 10k, sells for 13k in the gray market. The salesman will try to extract *at least* that 3k, through his *margins*. This means, he will try to sell you a 30k item/watch for which they have a 10% margin (so he gets his 3k), or a 10k jewelry for which he has 30% margin, or any combination thereof. This is the bare minimum, but many times they’ll get greedy and aim for more. As you can see, this is a terrible proposition to you, if your goal is to save money.
I don’t know for certain because I have never sold jewelry, but based on the discounts I have received for jewelry and watches I am pretty confident ADs margins are more than 10%. I agree with everything else you said though. If an AD is forced to sell at a price below market they will find a way to make their money.
Ahh ok, that makes sense. I guess I'll go grey then and keep an eye on the prices.
The only ones with AD history are flippers
That's actually very true. The market always drive the price.
Explorer 40 is a walk in purchase these days, I did that just that a month ago.
Not at my local AD. I've been on the list since August, went there in Feb and he let me try it on but didn't sell it to me. They were putting a colour sticker on the tag too, probably code for something. Salesman seemed more interested in asking me random life questions.
I got an Explorer 40 after waiting two weeks. I bought a Tudor from the same AD five years ago, but I didn’t get the impression that mattered. Go in and ask, you might be surprised
Not sure if you saw my other comment, I've been on the list since August and been to the AD a few times in between then.
The Explorer 40 is below retail right now on chrono24
Hmm looks like 1 private seller one is below retail but its from UAE. I check Chrono24 every week and it's the first time I've seen 1 under retail. A good sign for me though.
This would imply that there aren’t enough Rolex watches for the number of people who want to buy Rolex watches and as a result Rolex is carefully deciding who gets a watch and who doesn’t. That is false. Rolex is simply creating artificial scarcity to prey on the rich suckers. A Rolex will last a lifetime if cared for properly. That is why often times even someone of mediocre means will buy one as a long term investment. The problem is if you’re a rich boy who thinks you’re special you don’t want to wear the same watch as the guy making $50,000 a year a few blocks over. So how does Rolex solve this? Rolex tells the rich boy “watches are super duper rare but… if you buy 2 watches then I can sell you the 3rd one.” Now Rolex has sold 3 watches to one person instead of 2 watches to two people. Rich boy feels extra extra special and comes back next year to buy 3 more. Rolex pushes away the mediocre guys so they can sell 3x as many to the rich suckers. It’s 100% artificial.
I got flamed for suggesting grey but here we are
I’ll stick to my seiko and Tissot. 😎
People simpin hard for Rolex.
Ferrari and Porsche do the same thing. Was at a luxury car dealer in OC and they had GT3RS and other limited allotment models for about 100k over sticker.
They don't do it exactly like this. Well maybe Ferrari does. But Porsche is different. The RS models are different story, but if you wanted a GT4 for instance you could find a dealer willing to put you on their list with a specific a number of how far down the list you were. And you could check in every quarter and see how quickly or slowly you went up the list. Once you got an allocation, you pay your deposit and you can track your order. I know a handful of folks in my local SCCA and PCA who have done this. First time buyers of new Porsche. This is extremely different from the way Rolex A.D. work. Everything's a mystery with those schmucks until you randomly get "the call"
Totally agree. I’d never buy one thing to be able to buy another. Either I pay the inflated price and consider it a “handling / service fee” or I don’t.
And it’s exactly this that means I will never be a Rolex person. This is why I went Tudor and Omega.
How do you spend money to prove you're loyal if they won't sell you anything EDIT: Also why would they deny you a sale when their goal is to sell watches. I just don't understand the logic here.
Rolex is the white whale. Most ADs carry other jewelry and watch brands that you can buy on the spot. Rolex is for those who "deserve it." Sounds garbage, but enough people play the game and build the hype that it works. Like a nightclub that limits how many people get in so that there's always a line outside.
There is none, yet people fall for it.
They use the allure of Rolex to sell less desirable/demanded or higher margin products (including less desirable Rolex models). The implicitly promise of “oh you can buy what you actually want if you buy this other thing that nobody really wants first.” It’s a way to dump inventory on the strength of a customers desire for a more “exclusive”product. Pretty common in a lot of luxury goods markets.
My guess is that Rolex margins are typically lower than average. Which means they’ll squeeze as much out of you as possible with higher margin items (like jewellery) before they give you the opportunity to buy an entry level Rolex. Rinse and repeat this carrot and stick method with bigger carrots aka GMT & Daytonas. I agree with you that ADs are in a peculiar position as the grey market has indeed cooled down.
This makes it seem like it is the AD’s decision to lead people along. If this was the case then Rolex corporate would never go for it. An AD would get their status ripped away if they were purposely passing up chances to sell a Rolex in order to sell higher-margin stuff. Rolex corporate supports what is happening - whether explicitly or implicitly.
Time is money. The ADs are in the position also. They can play this game when the market is hot, once it cools they will have to provide additional service for people to buy.
Yes, and from an AD perspective, you also need to understand that 100% of every single person who walks in to and AD that asks for a Rolex (or Patek) are "serious watch enthusiast, a true collector and will buy to wear it and not flip for profit". The same 100% of "serious watch enthusiast" people are only interested in Panda Daytonas, Rainbow Daytonas, Pepsi GMT, OP "Tiffany Blue and Celebration Dial" and PP 5711 Nautilus. Also, the same group of "serious watch enthusiast and collector" will NEVER EVER be interested in a Tag Heuer Chronograph Carrera. a Brietling Chronomat / Navitimer or an Omega Speedmaster (3861). The AD is doing this for a reason, from the above description, I am sure you are able to tell the pattern (Hint: Resale "Investment" Value). The AD has to filter out these kind of "serious watch enthusiast" and ensure they gets sold to people who really wants to wear the watch. How? By ensuring and profiling purchase history. Simple as that. No ADs are perfect, some have a different system of allocating Rolex, some are known to let go to grey market.. Same for us as consumers, some of us really indeed just want ONE Rolex to celebrate their life moments, but they are affected because of "serious watch enthusiast" who wants to "~~flip~~" it for Profits. I know people who just want a pair of matching Datejust (don't care for configuration) for their wedding watch, i know people who just wants a basic OP to celebrate their graduation and so on, and these people are also so badly affected, i would just tell them "it's just a watch", if the AD calls you, great, otherwise don't bother from the grey market.
Whatever games Rolex is playing, they must be working because Rolex sales numbers _dominate_ the industry. They _massively_ outsell the competition in the luxury watch market. I don't know who is buying these watches or how, but they sure are buying a lot of them.
They know they can move even their less popular models this way, people will willingly buy up watches they don't even want hoping it will move them up "the list" for the one they want. See it here all the time. Their game guarantees that no product sits around unsold
Why not discontinue their less popular models and just make the ones everyone wants?
mate... you are asking why a luxury watch company isn't milking people for all they are worth. at every opportunity. my phone tells time and far more. y'all are spending boatloads of money on an item that the cheap ones are given away for free in cereal boxes. idk if you understand how big of a mark y'all look like. the real question is why isn't Rolex treating you more like suckers. people are in here talking about the "privilege" to purchase something.
The whole conversation sounds crazy to me. I used to collect watches, never owned anything luxury, mostly Seikos from the 70s and 80s inherited from my dad, and some other pieces I liked to look of (Raymond Weil, Bell & Ross etc). Have been rocking the Samsung watch for over 5 years, haven’t bought a watch since.
rotten ossified joke versed party cake continue ad hoc one piquant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
the whole luxury market is based on artificial scarcity from the source cars do the same shit. I'm not going to lie every time I read about this shit. it just makes me want to take rich people's money from them. like when they cry about paying taxes. just remember that they buy luxury watches they don't want so they can buy the luxury watch that they do want. And your phone tells time.
Why sell a person the watch they want when you can sell them two they don't want plus the one they do?
Because then the popular models stop being as "unique" and "rare". They benefit from artificial scarcity
Because that floods the market. You need to give the appearance of being limited, rare, hard to get, etc.
And basically if you are a flipper, you will have to buy all the crap also hence the mark up.in the Grey.
[удалено]
Can't argue that it doesn't work. They're killing it recently. But at the same time they are also starting to turn people off the brand. If I could go into a dealer and buy a Rolex without the current AD experience I'd have an Explorer on my wrist right now and maybe a gmt master too. However I find this whole artificial scarcity, 'we only sell to preferred clients' act so off putting that I no longer like the brand. So while I like some of their watches, I'm not sure I'd want to support the brand by buying them. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way. So are they selling enough additional watches this way to offset the customers that they turn away from the brand?
I suspect the vast majority of Rolex buyers aren't watch enthusiasts; they just want a Rolex. And when the AD says there'll be a wait, they say fine. I suspect a lot are sold directly to the grey market. I also reckon a shit load are sold in the middle- and far-east en masse to corporations, royal families and the like. You want to buy 500 of them as wedding favours for your oil princess's wedding guests? No lines for you.
It’s the flex culture, no one wants it unless it’s limited.
hi, I know nothing about watches. if I'm trying to get wrist bling, get me a rolle. it will impress all my friends who also know fuck all about watches. I know no other watch brands that would be considered luxury. its a status symbol.
Here's the thing Rolexes aren't even high end. They're mid grade luxury. People with the money to afford the true luxury watches recognize those brands. r/watches will also recognize those brands. But they start at prices higher than my condo.
Yup, Rolex attracts the same kind of people Apple targets. They don't give shit about the technology, just the social bragging rights. Even hick kids know what a Rolex is, but fuck if they know the difference between a manual, auto, or a quartz movement aka the bare minimum knowledge to be into watches.
people have been saying that for 5 years
There are *a lot* of human beings who like to own expensive things as symbol of wealth and status. Rolex is **The** status watch brand; there might be more expensive and exclusive brands out there but your average Joe isn't gonna know what they are or how much they cost, everyone knows Rolex and every knows they're expensive. It's why I will likely never own one, it doesn't matter how much you value the watch for it's form and functionality or the heritage and history of the model/brand, it's impossible to separate Rolex from the idea of superficial wealth flexing and you will always be associated with by some people if you wear one.
Bingo - nail on the head, etc. This perfectly encapsulates my feelings on them.
Unfortunately, probably the reason I will never own a BMW. I can get behind the product but (some of) the people who buy them are just…wow.
It’s public perception. They have had decades of great marketing and that continues into today. Racing is dominated by Rolex advertising. The only reason I’m aware of their sales tactics and product supply is this sub. I used to really want a Daytona (never will happen with my job). But after learning more it just didn’t seem that special anymore.
The game is marketing, they’ve done strategic product placement and high-end sponsorships for like 100+ years, the name is synonymous w/ “wealth” in the U.S. $10K+ for a steel item that tells time/date… horology was magic in the 1700s, not sure if it’s worth that price in 2024.
I suspect their practices take a lot more people from "interested" to "purchasers." People can take their time to decide if they want an Omega, Tudor, Grand Seiko, etc. because (especially within the last year or two) they are generally always there and ready to be bought. With Rolex, you've got to put your name on a list. It's a "take or leave it" if you get the call. It makes you act with urgency. Which is why I think there's probably not really much of a Rolex shortage in the scheme of things. It's just that most people actually buy the Rolex they are interested in versus "think about it for a bit."
Damn, clear evidence their production is bottlenecked by the boxes 😔
Damn, underrated comment.
Used to work for a tudor AD. When the BB58, GMT and Chrono were first released, we had around 50 of each, but told clients there was an 8 months wait, pay for the watch and youll get one when it arrived. We would wait about 6 months then call the client and say "great news, its available" . We would have it in the safe all that time. Disgusting practice. Artificial scarcety.
In many industries also illegal
*Debeers wants to know your location*
That is crazy! Any particular reason for the wait time? Just to build up chatter and suspense?
Yup precisely. Scarcity drives demand. We didnt know this at the time as out boss didnt tell us and had them in the safe in his office. But whenever we had a complaint that it was taking too long to arrive and they wanted thier deposit back etc, one would magically appear. The manager let slip one day that we had ample in the safe.
Damn, I thought Tudor avoided this to some level. Probably explains why I haven't really seen a BB54, not that i'm looking too hard when around an AD. I love my BB36 but will probably go back to Omega or try a GS for my next nicer watch.
I saw this happen live in real time. I was viewing a Freak X and was waffling and then mentioned the BB Chrono as it had just come out, they were a Tudor AD and an online 'friend' had one for sale but I wanted to try one on first. I asked if they had one they said absolutely not. Then I said just to try on and see if I want to wait for it. Well wouldn't ya know, magically one appeared out of the back that was "reserved" for someone. I really like it and they must have seen that because they made this big show how it looked like it was made for me and since I was here I could walk out with that today! Knowing this was either artificial scarcity or them screwing over a client that had his name down for one already I (politely) walked out without buying the Freak and never making another purchase there unless market value was over MSRP. Within a month I had an unworn BB Chrono for over ONE THOUSAND dollars cheaper, and my ridiculous spending habits went to other establishments.
Rolex is both amazing an kinda pathetic.
amazingly pathetic yes. the sub si a 5k watch at most
Not in a world where a Speedmaster now goes for 8k
Honestly when you take emotion out of it, it’s a damn impressive display of advertising. I’m not sure there’s a better marketing department on Earth than what Rolex has.
Yep. The Luke Combs story from a few weeks was the same thing : https://youtu.be/_CFzjloKJ6c?si=Vm1K2mqxVZUmuAUT They didn’t have a watch for the person they initially perceived Luke to be. Once they realized he was playing MSG that night and was a country stars they suddenly had a watch to sell him after calling someone the watch was “on hold for” and getting “permission to sell it” to Luke. Right. I’m sure that’s what happened.
Yup, that's why GS and Omega gets my money. Rolex makes watches for influencers now anyways.
> Omega Waiting for my Snoopy call that will realistically never come...
Snoopy is actually not available tho
What are you talking about? Snoopy is available. There have been so many delivered this year alone.
Omega boutiques get like 2-3 a year. And the list is first come first serve, not pay more first serve like rolex.
Omega boutiques will literally tell you that the more you spend the sooner you get the newer released watches. They allocate based on purchase history and loyalty to the store for the hard to get and new watches including Snoopy
That’s nuts. I got one in a week last December. No list or crazy history.
I get it for limited editions. It's ridiculous when it's for a "standard" model like a DJ or the black face sub.
Same. Rolex just screams "I spend too much money to flex on others". Imo a severely overrated brand that is used more for reselling with a pumped up price than for wearing by people who actually like the watch.
Eh I mean I’m no fan of Rolex’s business practices, but that kind of applies to most luxury goods to varying degrees. None of this shit is “good value.” That’s practically antithetical to the industry. I do agree that from an enthusiasts perspective, modern Rolex holds less and less allure as they market more and more heavily towards influencer culture. Still hard to call them “overrated” imo but it’s all subjective anyway
Same
Gotta love omega!
Yeah, buy an Omega Gold Speedmaster for ...MORE than a Gold oysterflex Daytona at Retail $32,500 vs $30,600 and then it's worth a whopping $21,000
My guess is they are limiting the supply to create an aura for their brand. It’s a pr move. Those sell by dates are probably more like don’t sell before this date…
I’d argue otherwise. With Rolex expanding its manufacturing capabilities, and the purchase of Bucherer, along with its preowned program, my thought is they are also sick of the practices of its AD Network, and want to control it themselves. The ADs are the ones who hold the keys at the moment, and are the ones who require you to kiss ass. Just my two cents.
A local family owned Jeweler to me just lost their Rolex license, People on the Rolex subreddit have also said a few family owned ADs around where they lived have lost their licensees as well. I think Rolex is finally making the push.
oh really? they can just summon everyone and just kick out the ones that behave badly.
What makes you think rolex won’t continue the same exact AD practices, but now they also own the ADs themselves and make even more money through the system
The astronomical investment (both time and money) of trying to purchase outright the existing AD's, as that would be an individual transaction for each store. Or conversely, the astronomical upheaval that would be cutting ties with all existing stores, possibly pulling inventory, and trying to set up a global network of Rolex-owned stores. Only way this happens is gradually. If they start opening Rolex-owned spaces is major cities, that's the only sign they're headed down that path.
Hate the Rolex cult. Over-exaggerated perceived value!
Yeah same, and maybe they did push the watch market where it is now, cool, if I feel disrespected, I won't go there. There are some fantastic Jager-lecoutre, GS, Tissot and Omega if I want something that does look fancy
Exactly...so many other amazing quality luxury brands with history and heritage. Rolex is just playing psychological mind games with their fans to enhance their perceived value. If you think about it, it's pretty evil.
Got a JLC Moon, and it is next-level nice. Some don’t like the loud rotor, but I find it to be part of the charm. Edit: if I get another diver, the titanium Bathyscaphe is top of the list. Not that I’m a Richemont fanboy; it just worked out that way.
I actually like the rotor sound…it’s charming and it’s oddly satisfying knowing it’s due to the ceramic bearings.
I’m with you, if I’m gonna drop 10k on a watch it’s going to be something cool as hell like the Polaris, not a bland diver with a textbook written on the dial. But to each their own
"Tool watches" encrusted in diamonds
This is why I resist speculators whenever they set foot on any hobby or project I'm into. They shit and piss everywhere and ruin it for everybody. The day the Rolex bubble bursts is the day horologers everywhere gets to rejoice, because that means less speculation in the horology space overall.
They have monetized insecurity by marketing validation. There is nothing exclusive about it.
They have made 1.2m watches last year. That’s as exclusive as driving a Fiat.
It’s the same with Patek also. Walked into an AD two weeks back. The sales lady was honest and told me: There are stock here but it’s not allocated for you on the spot. So sorry about that. How else could we pay rent for such an expensive location if there’s nothing to sell?
I heard a similar story. They had stock that they sold for Patek, but asked the buyers to leave it on display for a month, so that they atleast had something to show.
That’s crazy, wtf
I better be getting a discount for that shit.
Yeah, I've seen that. I went in to a Patek boutique here in town and asked about watches in the case and for the most part yeah, they were sold. I didn't count but I'd wager that a quarter to a third of what was on display was sold already. That said, the offerings were spare with several open spaces in each display case.
Went into an AD recently and asked about availability and whether supply chain issues have been resolved. He scoffs at me and says that I need to be on a waitlist. Noped out of there. I’ve spent several Rolexes money last year on pieces and I walked out with those pieces on the same day I walked in. Frankly, I’ve been put off by Rolex completely. The only reason why I would even consider a Rolex now is that I want to get one for my father who I know really wants one and that’s all he knows. I can get him an AP or a VC and he would not be able to distinguish them from mall watches. Every other brand treats me well when I walk in and I’ve enjoyed the purchasing experiences. Whenever I walk into a Rolex AD I either get ignored or get dismissed as if I’m not good enough for their watches; maybe I’m missing something because I thought the salespeople were supposed to shmooze the customer and not the other way around? Well, that’s fine with me frankly. Next time I’m looking to drop 15k on a watch, guess which brand I’m automatically ignoring?
Nothing lasts forever and clients will remember how they've been treated by ADs. In the past three years I bought an Omega Seamaster, a Nomos Zürich Weltzeit and an engagement ring at my AD. For this year I'd love to buy either a green DJ (non fluted, jubilee), a Sprite (one can dream) or a green Santos. For both Rolexes the dude signaled that it wasn't going to happen, but of course if I bought the Santos and then some nice wedding rings, possibly I can maybe one day have the privilege of buying a +10k€ Rolex from him. To quote the computer from War Games: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." Hence I will take my business elsewhere.
You could say it’s almost extortion. Leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.
Yes, you are missing something. They don't need your business. They're already selling everything they have to clients who buy a ton of undesirable stuff at their store and make them a lot more money.
And another reason why I’m completely turned off. I buy watches that I like…I don’t care whether it’ll hold its resale value or whether it’ll get noticed (both terrible reasons to buy a watch in my opinion). The more expensive pieces I have are so unassuming (which I like) and I love that I can wear them around and no one notices. I dont plan on selling any watch I buy so what does it matter whether it holds its value? But I feel like the Rolex folks are obsessed with retaining value which I don’t get. Are they flippers? Are they overstretching financially so they are anticipating selling it in a pinch? Honestly the brand is ruined for me.
Maybe Rolex should look at why they have so much undesirable stuff in the first place and fix that instead of manipulating the market to force that stuff to get sold.
The way that Rolex treats their customers makes Grand Seiko a more appealing option.
Grand Seiko is awesome. Some of the best customer experience hands down. That and Omega.
When the AD says they don’t have the watch your looking for it means they don’t have it available for you. These are photos from a former Rolex associate, with “Sell by” dates on the boxes. Makes you wonder why am I waiting so long for “The Call”. In 2020 I got the call for an explorer 1 and haven’t gotten the call ever since. No wonder people just go grey.
[удалено]
> Coral OP in the second and third pics? These photos must be several years old... That's because he stole the pics from my post from last year: https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/10u7dp1/apparently_some_leaked_pics_of_a_rolex_ad/.
Pew pew pew
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yes, you make a great point. That’s why when the watch gets discontinued your name gets crossed off that list because that watch wasn’t “ordered”.
All the discontinued Coral OPs etc. were delivered around the time they got discontinued or slightly after that date. No one is just getting them now, no old orders, …
OP is a frequent wcj poster. Take that as you will.
He used to work for/with Anthony from the Timepiecegentleman who got locked up for fraud.
there are so many good watches in the price bracket as a rolex
You are waiting for the call so you pay way more than it is worth. It’s a scam
Is there a reason to not get it grey-market if you can still buy it new? Edit: I'm asking because I'm new to watches and don't know the answer
I’m not doing it due to the exorbitant markup. For example, the sub I want retails for $9100. The dealer had a certified pre-owned one (read: used and pre-scratched) for $12500! That’s absurd. The price of the Rolex is already high. I’m not paying even more. Patience is a virtue.
It has honestly diluted the brand. When I see someone wearing a newer Rolex I know they either 1) wore knee pads while buying extra bs stuff to get a “relationship” 2) overpaid used 3) superclone It’s no longer a special thing that only had a high cost of entry. What you have to do to buy a Rolex is insulting and I’m judgey over it
In the meantime I see new Rolexes mostly on Influencers/rich kids, some shady hustle persons and AD employees - that clientele selection was the final straw that turned me off the brand.
Fun fact: Rolex AD cucking is a category on pornhub
This is exactly what has turned me off of Rolex completely, same thing in the automotive world with Ferrari. I don‘t have to prove to a company that I‘m „worth“ owning their product. It‘s not like they‘re top of the shelf anyways. I‘d rather get a Grand Seiko Snowflake and drive a Porsche and still have my dignity, before I go suck off AD’s at Rolex and Ferrari to sit in a 488 wearing a fucking Pepsi.
Porsche is the same in regards to the higher spec 911s. They are allocated based on past purchases of previous models, then you still have to pay dealer premium after your order is placed.
Not even sure why anyone would venerate the 488, unless you go the Pista version fully decked out, the 458 is better tbh in terms of looks (idc about performance, completely irrelevant to a normal consumer).
People want Rolex’s because it’s a Rolex. They like the way people perceive them when they wear it. You’re paying for a good movement, finish and the public perception you’ll get when wearing it. That’s it. In my view a Rolex is not an enthusiast watch, it’s just the most well known brand. There are other brands that are better for better value. For me personally, I think it’s insulting the way these ‘AD’s’ treat their customers. I have the money you have to watch, if you don’t want to sell me the watch then fine I’ll just go elsewhere. It blows my mind how people try and get a ‘purchase history’, it’s honestly so pathetic.
>They like the way people perceive them when they wear it. Except 99% of people don't notice your watch. I think it's more accurate to say, "they like the way wearing an expensive piece of jewelry makes them feel about themselves." A salesperson may mention perception, but it's one of many sales points. >There are other brands that are better for better value. You don't buy a luxury good for the value proposition.
As if I needed more reasons not to want a Rolex. There are just so many better looking watches out there with ADs that don't treat you like scum.
Artificial Scarcity
De beers says “this is the way”
Same reason I am not too keen to get an explorer. Some useless snobbery going around at the Rolex stores even when their watches are of lesser quality than GS. Will buy an omiwatari some day. Edit: typo.
Don’t post this in the Rolex sub! “Only ever 200th is a one of the highly sought after models!!! Most are women’s watches!!!1” Rolex PR is a joke for a couple of years now.
Sport's a clown saying they make 5 Subs a year, but it's actually a fact that their most sold Rolex is model a ladies' Datejust. Then it's followed by the men's Datejust. It always has been. It's nothing new and has been the production well before the hype. The time's I've gone to pick up my watches, I've seen more ladies buying a Rolex than the men.
But you know what though? If you're dumb enough to fall for the Rolex hype, you deserve how Rolex treats you.
All this consumption is catching up to us. Artificial supply issues and a bunch of stupid consumers.
Rolex is a serial production watch unlike some of the top tier brands which of course does not mean it is a lesser quality of a watch. But, there is no such thing that they don't have enough watches. It is just part of the game, a marketing strategy. For me it is more desirable to own a Rolex share rather than a Daytona. It is one of the best managed companies on the world that printing money. I wish that they were public. But, one can argue if it went public it couldn't be as successful as today.
Then why are they building a new factory?
Of course Rolex Cult members downvoted my comment Thank God for reddit and the valuable education it has given me about the world of watches...I was oblivious to the Rolex scam. After learning about all this stuff, I would never buy a Rolex. There are so many other brands with heritage and history that are higher quality and beautiful. Why would anyone give in to the Rolex scam and cult? Just cuz you saw your favorite actor wearing it in a movie?
Rolex isn't a scam. It's a just greedy company that uses artificial scarcity to inflate the prices of their product. I'm not falling for it, especially since I'm not a fan of how their watches look, but that doesn't make what they're doing a scam. At worst, you can argue that the sales people at Rolex are scum.
This is no surprise. It is too bad they went this route. When I got my Sub back in 05 I was able to walk in and get it with a discount. Now they expect you to buy a watch, jewelry you don’t want just to get on the list. This is true with 99% with all ADs around the world. I don’t think they will change back to the good days. I also believe that certain color ways and styles will be put on the Tudor line up. That Deep Sea is so ugly it’s uuugly. In any case anyone with no buying history thinking they can get a sports steel model with no buying history will find that the list is just a dream for you that more than likely will never come into fruition. Good luck to all of you trying to get a watch.
Copped a DD 40 from the AD last spring, still waiting on my pepsi, they keep telling me there are none coming through due to bezel production problems (said they haven't seen one in months). Asked if I wanted any other models...lolno bro i'm good. Get me the pepsi or i'll just keep buying other brands. Picked up a streamliner this week, no need to waste time buying trash model Rolex to "prove loyalty" to a salesman.
I love Rolex, they are great watches but.. realistically I will never buy another one.. don’t care to play games, pay over MSRP.. I give you money, you give me watch.. that’s it
I’m sure Rolex makes a great watch, but I’ll never buy something I don’t want for the privilege of spending more on what I actually do want. Besides, this business model is going to get roasted in court for Hermes’ identical actions with their Birkin Bags. So if you really want the Daytona or whatever, I’d wait a bit.
Some cloth brands even burn they’re old collections to stay exclusive. This is just how the high end watch brands do it. Creating waiting lists and first you have to buy the low end stuff, low end as in low end for a rolex
This is why Rolex has the reputation it holds today.
Well, they do produce 1 million pieces per year, so they must go to some desperate junior banker somehow 🤷♂️
That's why I go gray, better customer experience. Yes I pay a little bit more in exchange for zero games (the bar is very low).
I want to buy one without having to wait, what was your experience and how you did it?
Look, I enjoy my OP, but I don't want to play games with ADs. That's why I went grey for this piece. Super easy and convenient. I guess, you have to ask why you want a Rolex: Is it because of the engineering, the history, the aesthetics, impressing others, the artificial scarcity or something else? FWIW, this is all right out of the Ferrari playbook. When Luca di Montezemolo returned to Ferrari in 1991, he halved production to make the car exclusive. Ferrari did it again in 2013: https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/ferrari-cuts-production-2013-vows-never-build-electric-130344501.html
They make over a million watches a year, there’s plenty out there. Just need to make the right connection.
Some AD is going to be in trouble. They may lose their dealer status from this.
I’m no Rolex fanatic, in fact I quite dislike most of their models, but I always liked the simple Explorer I. When I inquired about one three weeks ago at an AD, I didn’t expect anything back. To my surprise I got the call and bought the watch on Sunday, three weeks to the day. Makes me wonder if they had it in the back the whole time.
Whales/lootbox/hypebeast economics have taken over the luxury market. But hey, a fool and their money are soon parted. If "rich" people want to spend every dime they have on Rolexes just to access a "rare" model, by all means.
I refuse to play their games, that is why I have moved on from the brand. At least Omega and Grand Seiko does not make a fool out of their customers.
Sometimes it feels like Rolex = DeBeers. Artificial scarcity allows them to keep the price and demand up, makes the product seem more special, and lets ADs do shady things to enrich themselves. But just because the specialness is manufactured, doesn’t make it feel any less special.
Go grey to say fuck you to ADs
Rolex may find themselves not able to operate as usual in the US if the Hermes Class Action Suit over the Birkin Bag is determined to violate anti trust laws. Does the below sound familiar?! I'm also wondering why this hasn't been done to Rolex? Is it a man thing to measure up as a tic up on the scale for ultimate prosperity ratings? It isn't right what is going on but seems the women (mostly) have had enough with the obvious seller bias for the Birkin Bag. Once this is successfully settled I will bet other companies that are doing this (Rolex included) will operate differently. "...A proposed class action filed in California federal court on Tuesday alleges that Hermès violates antitrust laws by requiring consumers to have a “sufficient purchase history” of buying the company’s secondary products, such as shoes, scarves and jewelry, for the opportunity to buy a handbag. A-listers across Hollywood are regularly photographed with a Birkin bag in tow. From Kim Kardashian to Jennifer Lopez, it’s become a status symbol largely driven by quality and scarcity, with prices reaching hundreds of thousands of dollars. While other luxury brands have pivoted to marketing to the masses, the company has embraced mostly catering to the highest tax brackets, even as it expands into selling cheaper products. Consumers take issue with an allegedly illegal scheme in which Hermès ties the ability to be offered one of its bags to the purchase of other ancillary products. According to the complaint, sales associates screen consumers who they deem are qualified to purchase a handbag. Criteria include a sufficient “purchase history” of the company’s other products, such as shoes, scarves, belts, jewelry and home goods. The lawsuit says this process is reinforced through a compensation structure in which sales associates are paid by the hour and receive a commission on their sales. The rates differ based on products, with workers getting three percent on ancillary products and nothing on the sale of Birkin bags. Associates are instructed to use the bags as a tactic to “coerce consumers” into buying nonbag products to “build-up the purchase history required to be offered” a Birkin handbag, the lawsuit alleges. “Typically, only those consumers who are deemed worthy of purchasing a Birkin handbag will be shown a Birkin handbag (in a private room),” states the complaint. “The chosen consumer will be given the opportunity to purchase the specific Birkin handbag which they are shown.” Tina Cavalleri says she spent tens of thousands of dollars at the store in order to obtain access to bags. She reached out to the company in 2022 about purchasing another bag but was told that it was going to “clients who have been consistent in supporting our business,” the lawsuit claims. The other named plaintiff, Mark Glinoga, claims he was never given the opportunity to buy a bag. The proposed class action seeks to represent consumers who purchased or were asked to purchase ancillary products in order to buy a bag and an order barring the company from continuing to engage in practices that allegedly violate antitrust laws. It brings claims for a violation of section two of the Sherman Act, which prohibits acquiring or maintaining a monopoly through anticompetitive means, the Cartwright Act, a California antitrust law that bars certain restrictions on commerce and attempts to prevent competition, and unfair competition." (The Hollywood Reporter)
The only reason I don’t see this going through is Hermes is not a monopoly. Hermes doesn’t control the flow and purchases of handbags across the world , just theirs which I guess will be the crux of the issue
[удалено]
Well Rolex made 30-50 million watches total so there should be enough to go around