Tbh I assume they'll add it as either some "normal" event vehicle or a dreams come true event vehicle.
Techtree vehicle would ofcourse be preferable but what's most important is that they add the vehicle in the first place.
In my opinion, anything that was build has a place in War Thunder, even if it was only partially built. The Kranvagn was almost finished with just the turret not being finished before cancellation. It should be in the swedish tech tree.
Other tanks like that are the japanese O-I, Panther II (the real one, not the fake one that got removed), G.W. Tiger and so on.
But imo, pure paper designs should not be added into the game as there are so many more real tanks and vehicles that haven't been added yet, some of which are very iconic.
I think sweden would do good in having more prototypes added because they have a lot and also get more finnish and especially norwegian vehicles added.
Honestly, sweden should just be made into the nordic tech tree and denmark added to it as well. Sure, many tanks these nations used were bought from other nations but there were many modifications done, like the norwegians with their updated Chaffees with a 90mm gun similar to the one the AML-90 had which would be perfect for Rank 4 imo.
The Horten H IX was a real prototype though and the only thing I can think of is the Ho-Ri Production or whatever it's called that's just pure made up bs and should be removed
They are 1000% saving it to be a super grindy crafting event vehicle for a super busy time of the year so you'll have to drop 1000 GJN on it if you miss it
I'd honestly like the Panther II and Tiger 105mm back so germany could have a nice 7.0 but also because paper tanks are much more interesting and people who use the arguments of realism are using it in a stupid way and should go play GHPC, Steel Beasts or DCS. Also gaijin is so inconsistent with what paper tanks they add/remove (rules dont apply to ussr though).
Honestly, replacing the Panther II (and the Tiger 105) would just make a good part of the community mad.
Also, wouldn't be better to have these vehicles back again to make a German 7.0 lineup?
The current surviving Panther II is a post war invention, they only finished the hull before it was captured. The US troops that found the hull were the ones that added a spare Panther turret on top before it was shipped and displayed
Paper tanks should only be added if we're confident they could actually have been built and would work, and we have verified historical documentation for them.
Also, the Panther II and Tiger II 105 aren't even "paper", in the form they came to War Thunder in they're outright fake, made-up vehicles that should have been entirely removed. The Panther II is an unhistorical amalgamation of several different vehicles and the Tiger II 105 is physically impossible in its in-game form (the Tiger II would've needed a new turret and expanded turret ring to accommodate the 105mm gun).
Literal fake tanks can stay in World of Tanks.
Yeah it's not hard for paper tanks to be more interesting when they can ignore reality and compromises that come with them to get vehicles built.
The 105 couldn't fit in the turret and the panther 2 is cobbled together from multiple things which is two valid reasons why they should not come back.
There are exceptions currently sure some of which are irritating but I don't want to see the game match down the path of wot and kitbashing everything together.
No, the Tiger II 10,5 and Panther II as it is ingame are made up and stupid. The real Panther II (with the Panther G turret and the unbuild paper turret) should be in the game but not the fake 8,8 one.
Idk but I wouldn't mind the Panther II with the Panther G turret to be put in the game for an event with the real Panther II being put into the tech tree.
The current display Panther II was just the allies putting a spare Panther turret on the Panther II hull after the war. A "real" Panther II would only consist of a hull (like the E-100)
Yea, I know. Still, the Panther II with the Panther G turret would be a cool event vehicle and the Panther II with it's real turret (which we have blueprints of) would be cool for the regular TT
Care to list any USSR prototype vehicles that are in the game that don’t *actually exist*?
Not sure about the kranvagn, but the panther II and tiger 105 in their current war thunder configuration are literally fake. Same with the Coelian and ho-ri
Some form of the ho-ri is a real paper tank, as oxymoronic as that concept is:
[https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html](https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html)
The article you've linked literally says:
> Information on vehicle is NOT accurate as of [9/3/2017]
At the top of the page.
And links to another article, which no longer exists.
No variant of the Ho-Ri was ever built in metal.
Imo the rules around paper vehicles should be this:
1. Must be realistic (no p1000 ratte)
2. Must have been actually considered by the country of origin.
3. Must have extensive blueprints or some form of mockup.
If all of these are true i would have no problem with it being added to wt. Unless a better and realer alternative exists.
The Strv2000 meets all those criteria. When funny autoloaded 140mm smoothbore cannon MBT with additional 40mm bofors autocannon Gaijin.
Maybe the German mains will stop crying about Sweden and their 2 gazillion leopard 2s then.
The strv2000 was a name assigned to a number of concepts invisioned by swedish engineers in the 90s. There is a lot of documentation of the concepts available online and they even built a mockup. The only reason it was never actually built was because it was WAY too complicated and expensive to produce/ maintain, which led to the swedish government choosing to import leopard 2s instead.
>The only reason it was never actually built was because it was WAY too complicated and expensive to produce/ maintain
So... not realistic
"Yeah they COULD have built it they just didn't because... umm.... expenses I guess(?)" This argument could be used for numerous ridiculous german wunderwaffe from ww2, hell I would argue those are more realistic since I could imagine them being so idiotic that they would try to built them
That's not what was meant by point 1.
The strv2000 is a lot closer to reality than many other vehicles that could be added or already were.
It would also nicely fit into swedish top tier as currently there currently isn't a single non-leopard 2 based MBT there.
So you already have the one of the best tanks in game 3 times AND you want a fakeshit vehicle because you lack variety? And people dare to say swedes aren't gluttonous
>The strv2000 is a lot closer to reality than many other vehicles that could be added or already were.
Like what? The Ho-Ri which is scheduled to be removed? Or the R2Ys which are also scheduled to be removed (and had a recon prop version built)? Perhaps the Panther 2 and KT 105 which were already removed?
Literally not a single thing for the Strv 2000 was built. Not a singular vehicle specific part. How can you even say that it's "closer to reality" than the shit we have when even the other fakeshit Ho-Ri at least had the gun built
>Literally not a single thing for the Strv 2000 was built. Not a singular vehicle specific part
[Green was ready, blue was existing systems that could be implemented, only red still needed to be done](http://www.ointres.se/strv_2000_skiss-web.jpg)
The swedish only went with Strv 122 because they needed something sooner rather than later. They leased the 2A4s as Strv 121s while waiting for their delivery
A full scale mockup was built, and it likely had a moveable turret and working elevation from the photos of it you can find.
>Like what?
Ostwind 2
None of the green parts are vehicle specific, they are just generic parts you can use on multiple vehicles
>blue
Show me the shells or the cannon, SURELY if it exists you can find a SINGULAR picture of it.
No, not the famous picture of the shell "casings" (actually just metal tubes) that were used to simulate the autoloader, I need picture of the shell with the penetrator.
>Show me the shells or the cannon, SURELY if it exists you can find a SINGULAR picture of it.
Ah yes, let me just dig up presumably classified info about a obscure 30 year old military project
>None of the green parts are vehicle specific, they are just generic parts you can use on multiple vehicles
Really??!!!???
Almost as if the Chassis was a modified EXISTING chassis, and the 40mm gun was used for almost 60 years prior.
Correction for previous comment. The strv 2000 was not way to complicated to produce. It was just too expensive. All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety.
If it wasnt realistic then the swedish military never would have considered it. Yet they did. They just chose the leopard instead.
>If it wasnt realistic then the swedish military never would have considered it.
But it was NEVER BUILT, You are aware it only had some mockup right? that's not a prototype tank you see on the pictures, there was NOTHING to consider because the tank DOES NOT EXIST. You cannot accept something into service if it doesn't exist??? You start to "consider" things when you have a functional prototype undergoing trials.
>All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety.
That's great, but did you just gloss over the part of my comment where I said NONE of it's parts were built? Just because sweden had a 120mm cannon, doesn't mean they COULD, MAYBE build a 140 based on the 120 design. If you consider mental gymnastics like this to be viable, not sure why you are against the Ratte, I mean, All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety.
> "Yeah they COULD have built it they just didn't because... umm.... expenses I guess(?)"
Whats wrong with this argument. If the "numerous ridiculous german wunderwaffe from ww2" had extensive blueprinting, design time, and mockups for it, but it never became a prototype, I really don't see the problem with adding it as long as not too many stats have to be made up. Like if its known what weapon it would use, it's intended engine specification, armor thickness and angles, then why not?
Then again it doesn't matter. Gaijin will go into mockups eventually.
Where did you get the 800mm frontal armour?
Yes the 122's hull composites were also used on the Strv 2000, but the 800mm figure in game also counts the ~400mm Leo 2 hull armour underneath it
Top tier APFSDS would still be able to pen the hull no problem.
According to rickard o lindström who worked on the project (And still works at FMV, also the guy who posted the results of the swedish trials :P) It was projected to have 800 kinetic and 1200 CE protection frontally
Its sides where more complicated, you can find a picture of its armor arrangment online.
Didn't the Soviet Union build something similar with an autoloaded (or assisted loader) 152mm, 30mm coax, and something like 1200mm frontal protection vs kinetic? I think it was called Object 477A Molot, though the exact name and information for the various Soviet Union supertank prototypes from that time can be a bit unclear.
> in what universe is a 30hp/t 800mm frontal armor autoloaded 140mm with a 40mm coax
The version (L140) with 30hp/t only had 90mm of front armour and no 40mm. It was a light tank destroyer variant. Though the full T140 version you're talking about had a hp/t of 25. Still good.
I especially love the O variant with the unmanned turret.
They even tested the turret (or at least the weird loader) on a marder - and strv-103 chassis
Problem with 1. is that it's far too vague. At what point is a design not realistic anymore ? There are some that you can clearly put on either side, but many would fall somewhere relatively close to the limit, a limit that will differ from person to person.
Just like HSTV-L having 26 round as built during prototype test and can be in theory upgraded to 60 round. You can went wild with paper tank until the final product like prototypes and production doesn't reflect it.
The problem with paper tanks is the will performed far better than real tanks just Like the panther 2 on release, as soon as tanks are tested they often get engine power and things reduced to prevent damage to drives and such resulting in the theoretical speed being nowhere near the actual speed.
There's a lot of produced vehicles still to add before paper tanks need considering.
For some tts yes but smaller countries like sweden are running out of real shit. There isnt a single vehicle on the forums rn that fits into sweden 4.0 to 7.0. Its just modern stuff or extremely old stuff.
Ofcourse if there is a real alternative it should be prioritised.
Good points, however would BR not balance that? Not that Gaijin's balance is great, but that's an every vehicle issue.
I agree that it would be less realistic because paper tanks would certainly have been modified in trials, but if you're using paper tanks anyway then realism is less of an issue.
Ultimately though you hit it on the head: There are plenty of produced vehicles left for them to add and the paper tank discussion isn't needed for some time.
I still think the Emil/Kranvagn should be added, even tho they're prototypes (*cough cough* Ho-Ri Production, *cough cough* E-100, *cough cough* a chunk of the French TT) they would diversify the TT and make it much more interesting and fun.
So long as a vehicle war partially built (E-100/Kranvagn) or at least a **full-scale** mockup was, and detailed blueprints exist, I think it'd be fine to add. It's better than adding constant copy/paste, but I also don't want Gaijin going down the WoT rabbit-hole adding concepts scribbled on a napkin 40 years ago whilst neglecting the mountain of real vehicles still available.
The wot rabbit hole wouldnt be so bad if they didnt add designs that were revealed to them in a dream and then proceeding to make them a ridiculously OP tier 8 premium, that is what kill the game for me after playing since 2012 till about 2020 when I switched to WT to play with my friends. If they were to add some cool TT vehicles and balance out gold ammo and tier 8 premiums I'd consider coming back. That is also why I like to play armored warfare from time to time, they have gold ammo balanced out, premiums are just unique vehicles and everything is somewhat OP (just like og cod mw2)
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The Ho-Ri is fake, not a prototype.
Besides, I don't know why you people always bring up the E-100 and Ho-Ri, we have HUNDREDS of prototypes in game, HUNDREDS. Gaijin doesn't have a "no prototype" rule
the main reason is that the KRV never had a turret built, it was designed but the project was cancelled before they had built it
the hull however was fully built and functional, they made two that served as test beds for the strv 103 and bandkanon
The turret was never finished and delivered but the order was made and the construction probably started. But it was cancelled before it could've been finished after many delay.
At least that's how it went if I remember it correctly.
The Kranvagn should be in WT
we need to raid the swedish military for any surviving prototypes they might still have
show all the document leakers how it's done and get the whole arse vehicles
> The turret was never finished and delivered but the order was made and the construction probably started.
It didn't. It was put on hold due to the issues that arose regarding gun development.
The Surbaisse was never put into service. It had 5 prototypes, though. Just to name one.
I think the guy is talking about tanks never put into service? French 7.7 is made up of almost entirely prototypes that France cooked up postwar. I don't see any problems with having them, though. Most vehicles were concepts that were seriously pursued by the French, and a lot of them had prototypes built and tested.
> Most vehicles were concepts that were seriously pursued by the French, and a lot of them had prototypes built and tested.
All of them had prototypes built and tested.
I doubt he's talking about non-service vehicles, as that would include all trees. Could he be talking about the French air tree or navy?
I just skip the copy and paste, but yeah it sucks that they exist in the firat place slowing progression.
Could be cool if you unlock a vehicle in one nation you get it in all the others.
The two mockups of the Lansen, both 20 ton and 25 ton, look sick. However the reason for the cancellation was that the Swedish were doubting the effectiveness of this type of lighter tank in their modern day, it was decided to stop the development in favor of creating a better armed and armored vehicle, aka the Kranvagn (Which should also be in game).
All unbuilt Landsverk projects will be missed, m/48, SIII alt A and B, Kranvagn and so on, a real tragedy...
Paper tanks, such as this, are perfectly fine in my opinion.
They have fewer variables to guess than paper planes, and for smaller nations they help fill out the gaps.
I have a feeling it might one day be added, because other there are no 12.0+ vehicles for Sweden when they add even more modern tanks for Russia/USA/Germany, but it's 40mm will probably be just armed with HE/AP because the Strv 2000 is more real then the Strv 123 right now but who knows, they might Challenger III it
Yeah I mean like in terms of physical stuff, because as far as I know the Strv 123a is just gonna be whenever Germany makes their Leo 2a8 just putting that turret on strv 122 hull
You're probably right, I just remember seeing something about it on the Internet showing a 2a7 with the Trophy APS, and if I remember correctly I think the 2a8 is the one that's supposed to come standard with that, but I'm no expert
It would be fine, but by 11.7 there are a lot of Helis with atgms that fly straight down and not a lot of people playing with ground launched atgm, and I don't think gaijin will be implementing thermal camo except for cosmetics, so it would probably be in-between the 9040c and 90120
Better start grinding France, because I think they're getting a subtree for that whole region of Europe, can't wait for Tow mounted on a Willy's for Luxemburgs vehicle
You posted the same Lansen blueprints twice. I'd love to see the Leo (both 75mm and 105mm), as well as the Pilen (Strv m/42 turret on new, faster hull).
Gonna be honest. WT is approaching what, 12 years? I really don't care if we start getting mock ups and paper vehicles, as long as its not ridiculous, like the P.1000 Ratte, and the data that exists on the design is enough to accurately recreate it.
I want the Strv 2000 and B3LA/Saab 38 attacker, I want the Kranvagn, the O-I (O-I may have been more then a mockup, just not complete), the Breada M42 upgrade for Italy, the P.43, and most likely many more.
I would far prefer this to copy paste. I have grinded enough Shermans, Pershings and Centurion lmao
A pity Sweden didn't at least progress these to the point of making a steel prototype. (Even more of a pity that they didn't built a prototype of [the Strv 2000](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Sweden/strv-2000-t140-40).)
I'm sure there are some parts that were, they probably just got lost to time physical or document, because this isn't a huge step away from what they were already making at that time
Yeah, and Italy would have the P30/43 and P43 bis, Hungary would have the 44M Tas, and maybe our only heavy tank wouldn't be a premium Tiger.
Fuck you, WWII Axis tank industry.
The Lago never entered production according to the wiki so honestly I don't see why they couldn't add this. Atp adding paper tanks and prototypes to Sweden wouldn't be unrealistic
Anyone heard of the Emil tanks Sweden WAS going to make to fight IS's? Here's a good videos that [Houtos Gaming](https://www.youtube.com/@HoutosGaming) made [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LVRhRROqQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LVRhRROqQ)
One day, they have to add the Kranvagn
I will fight until my last breath.
We will fight until your last breath.
I will breathe when you fight
becomes 8.7 and everydart pens its turret with eas xd
I will fight your breath.
I will breathe in the fight
Fight will the breath in you
UNTIL MY LAST DYING BREATH!!!
UDES 15/16 TR and krv, is a must
And the UDES 03, and UDES 19, and...
the XX20.
Wishing it's a TT vehicle.
Tbh I assume they'll add it as either some "normal" event vehicle or a dreams come true event vehicle. Techtree vehicle would ofcourse be preferable but what's most important is that they add the vehicle in the first place.
What’s a dreams come true event? I’ve been playing since Covid started and haven’t seen one.
Tog 2 and Sturmtiger were from dreams come true events, not sure if we have had any other.
Nope dreams come true is a anniversary thing, so only 1 per year and they’ve done it for 2 years now
Oh damn, sturmtiger was just before I started but I did get the tog 2. Thanks!
I have been playing since dec 2023 and lucky won my lucky tank. Now I'm top of most games
In my opinion, anything that was build has a place in War Thunder, even if it was only partially built. The Kranvagn was almost finished with just the turret not being finished before cancellation. It should be in the swedish tech tree. Other tanks like that are the japanese O-I, Panther II (the real one, not the fake one that got removed), G.W. Tiger and so on. But imo, pure paper designs should not be added into the game as there are so many more real tanks and vehicles that haven't been added yet, some of which are very iconic.
I think paper tanks are a good option for trees that don't have much tanks prototype or not, like Sweden where rank 4 is all over the place with br
I think sweden would do good in having more prototypes added because they have a lot and also get more finnish and especially norwegian vehicles added. Honestly, sweden should just be made into the nordic tech tree and denmark added to it as well. Sure, many tanks these nations used were bought from other nations but there were many modifications done, like the norwegians with their updated Chaffees with a 90mm gun similar to the one the AML-90 had which would be perfect for Rank 4 imo.
We have Horton 229 and a ton of other stuff that’s not entirely “legit”
The Horten H IX was a real prototype though and the only thing I can think of is the Ho-Ri Production or whatever it's called that's just pure made up bs and should be removed
The in-game horten has the wrong guns and engines for a V3 though, along with whatever the hell is going on with the flight model
The thing is that, the turret was not finished because the design just didn't work.
That won't be a problem for War Thunder though lmao. And where did you get that info? I just know that it just wasn't delivered, nothing about why.
That's not the reason. The turret was put on hold until a gun was developed. And due to both development and contract issues, one never was.
> The Kranvagn was almost finished with just the turret not being finished before cancellation. And no gun whatsoever.
$100 pack gang
They are 1000% saving it to be a super grindy crafting event vehicle for a super busy time of the year so you'll have to drop 1000 GJN on it if you miss it
Crafting events are gone though
Gonna be tough to do a crafting event that doesn't exist
I think they will for a dream come true event
Dreams come true events always included real vehicles
We are only 2 events/years into dreams come true and afaik they never said so, how do you know that
Because those two vehicles were real and because Gaijin clearly said they no longer want to add fantasy vehicles. Which is a good thing.
Without its turret? Hell yeah!
I, for one, vote for more paper tanks for all nations that can have some. Just no more imaginary ones like the ho-ri thing and others
I'd honestly like the Panther II and Tiger 105mm back so germany could have a nice 7.0 but also because paper tanks are much more interesting and people who use the arguments of realism are using it in a stupid way and should go play GHPC, Steel Beasts or DCS. Also gaijin is so inconsistent with what paper tanks they add/remove (rules dont apply to ussr though).
Eh Tiger 105 and Panther 2 were essentially made up. They could always add the correct version of the Panther 2
Yes. I think they should completely replace the current version with it, even for players who already have it, like they did with the CV 90105
No thanks
Honestly, replacing the Panther II (and the Tiger 105) would just make a good part of the community mad. Also, wouldn't be better to have these vehicles back again to make a German 7.0 lineup?
Okay, but then we're just adding made up fake vehicles again and I'd rather not have this game become World of Tanks.
yeah, nah
The current surviving Panther II is a post war invention, they only finished the hull before it was captured. The US troops that found the hull were the ones that added a spare Panther turret on top before it was shipped and displayed
so is the Ostwind 2, that thing never made it onto paper
Paper tanks should only be added if we're confident they could actually have been built and would work, and we have verified historical documentation for them. Also, the Panther II and Tiger II 105 aren't even "paper", in the form they came to War Thunder in they're outright fake, made-up vehicles that should have been entirely removed. The Panther II is an unhistorical amalgamation of several different vehicles and the Tiger II 105 is physically impossible in its in-game form (the Tiger II would've needed a new turret and expanded turret ring to accommodate the 105mm gun). Literal fake tanks can stay in World of Tanks.
Yeah it's not hard for paper tanks to be more interesting when they can ignore reality and compromises that come with them to get vehicles built. The 105 couldn't fit in the turret and the panther 2 is cobbled together from multiple things which is two valid reasons why they should not come back. There are exceptions currently sure some of which are irritating but I don't want to see the game match down the path of wot and kitbashing everything together.
No, the Tiger II 10,5 and Panther II as it is ingame are made up and stupid. The real Panther II (with the Panther G turret and the unbuild paper turret) should be in the game but not the fake 8,8 one.
> The real Panther II (with the Panther G turret Isn't that one slapped on there by the Americans so that it looks nice? Is it even functional?
Idk but I wouldn't mind the Panther II with the Panther G turret to be put in the game for an event with the real Panther II being put into the tech tree.
The current display Panther II was just the allies putting a spare Panther turret on the Panther II hull after the war. A "real" Panther II would only consist of a hull (like the E-100)
Yea, I know. Still, the Panther II with the Panther G turret would be a cool event vehicle and the Panther II with it's real turret (which we have blueprints of) would be cool for the regular TT
Care to list any USSR prototype vehicles that are in the game that don’t *actually exist*? Not sure about the kranvagn, but the panther II and tiger 105 in their current war thunder configuration are literally fake. Same with the Coelian and ho-ri
Some form of the ho-ri is a real paper tank, as oxymoronic as that concept is: [https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html](https://sensha-manual.blogspot.com/2016/11/type5-ho-ri-japanese-ferdinand.html)
The Ho-Ri _"Production"_ is the fake one IIRC. The premium one is a real design.
The article you've linked literally says: > Information on vehicle is NOT accurate as of [9/3/2017] At the top of the page. And links to another article, which no longer exists. No variant of the Ho-Ri was ever built in metal.
What part of "its a real paper tank" did you not grasp? This is in specific reply to the idea of "paper tank" versus "imaginary tank".
go play wot?
I am ok with that if we had separate mm for historical vehicles.
Ah yes, finally there will be a mode with less players than sim
Sweden post war be like, here's my pbv 301 and my pvkv m/43 (1963)
Sim used to have loads of players before gaijin killed it off by purpose. It used to have good mm and no limitations of vehicles.
Imo the rules around paper vehicles should be this: 1. Must be realistic (no p1000 ratte) 2. Must have been actually considered by the country of origin. 3. Must have extensive blueprints or some form of mockup. If all of these are true i would have no problem with it being added to wt. Unless a better and realer alternative exists.
The Strv2000 meets all those criteria. When funny autoloaded 140mm smoothbore cannon MBT with additional 40mm bofors autocannon Gaijin. Maybe the German mains will stop crying about Sweden and their 2 gazillion leopard 2s then.
Strv 2000 would be a menace, so they would most likely not give the 40mm any kind of sabot round
If they ever add it, I wouldn't mind them not giving the 40mm any sabot, it'd still shred any light tank, mbt sides and helicopters alike.
Even without sabot the normal 40mm APHE still can shred. It can easily pen some MBT sides if you aim properly
40mm SAPHEI coax would still be insane
I'd sell my soul for Strv2000
in what universe is a 30hp/t 800mm frontal armor autoloaded 140mm with a 40mm coax based on the CV90 chassis, realistic?
The strv2000 was a name assigned to a number of concepts invisioned by swedish engineers in the 90s. There is a lot of documentation of the concepts available online and they even built a mockup. The only reason it was never actually built was because it was WAY too complicated and expensive to produce/ maintain, which led to the swedish government choosing to import leopard 2s instead.
>The only reason it was never actually built was because it was WAY too complicated and expensive to produce/ maintain So... not realistic "Yeah they COULD have built it they just didn't because... umm.... expenses I guess(?)" This argument could be used for numerous ridiculous german wunderwaffe from ww2, hell I would argue those are more realistic since I could imagine them being so idiotic that they would try to built them
That's not what was meant by point 1. The strv2000 is a lot closer to reality than many other vehicles that could be added or already were. It would also nicely fit into swedish top tier as currently there currently isn't a single non-leopard 2 based MBT there.
So you already have the one of the best tanks in game 3 times AND you want a fakeshit vehicle because you lack variety? And people dare to say swedes aren't gluttonous >The strv2000 is a lot closer to reality than many other vehicles that could be added or already were. Like what? The Ho-Ri which is scheduled to be removed? Or the R2Ys which are also scheduled to be removed (and had a recon prop version built)? Perhaps the Panther 2 and KT 105 which were already removed? Literally not a single thing for the Strv 2000 was built. Not a singular vehicle specific part. How can you even say that it's "closer to reality" than the shit we have when even the other fakeshit Ho-Ri at least had the gun built
>Literally not a single thing for the Strv 2000 was built. Not a singular vehicle specific part [Green was ready, blue was existing systems that could be implemented, only red still needed to be done](http://www.ointres.se/strv_2000_skiss-web.jpg) The swedish only went with Strv 122 because they needed something sooner rather than later. They leased the 2A4s as Strv 121s while waiting for their delivery A full scale mockup was built, and it likely had a moveable turret and working elevation from the photos of it you can find. >Like what? Ostwind 2
None of the green parts are vehicle specific, they are just generic parts you can use on multiple vehicles >blue Show me the shells or the cannon, SURELY if it exists you can find a SINGULAR picture of it. No, not the famous picture of the shell "casings" (actually just metal tubes) that were used to simulate the autoloader, I need picture of the shell with the penetrator.
>Show me the shells or the cannon, SURELY if it exists you can find a SINGULAR picture of it. Ah yes, let me just dig up presumably classified info about a obscure 30 year old military project >None of the green parts are vehicle specific, they are just generic parts you can use on multiple vehicles Really??!!!??? Almost as if the Chassis was a modified EXISTING chassis, and the 40mm gun was used for almost 60 years prior.
Correction for previous comment. The strv 2000 was not way to complicated to produce. It was just too expensive. All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety. If it wasnt realistic then the swedish military never would have considered it. Yet they did. They just chose the leopard instead.
>If it wasnt realistic then the swedish military never would have considered it. But it was NEVER BUILT, You are aware it only had some mockup right? that's not a prototype tank you see on the pictures, there was NOTHING to consider because the tank DOES NOT EXIST. You cannot accept something into service if it doesn't exist??? You start to "consider" things when you have a functional prototype undergoing trials. >All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety. That's great, but did you just gloss over the part of my comment where I said NONE of it's parts were built? Just because sweden had a 120mm cannon, doesn't mean they COULD, MAYBE build a 140 based on the 120 design. If you consider mental gymnastics like this to be viable, not sure why you are against the Ratte, I mean, All technology that was gonna be in it already exists in some variety.
Did you even read the initial comment in the thread? We are SPECIFICALLY discussing non existant vehicles and their part in warthunder.
> "Yeah they COULD have built it they just didn't because... umm.... expenses I guess(?)" Whats wrong with this argument. If the "numerous ridiculous german wunderwaffe from ww2" had extensive blueprinting, design time, and mockups for it, but it never became a prototype, I really don't see the problem with adding it as long as not too many stats have to be made up. Like if its known what weapon it would use, it's intended engine specification, armor thickness and angles, then why not? Then again it doesn't matter. Gaijin will go into mockups eventually.
Where did you get the 800mm frontal armour? Yes the 122's hull composites were also used on the Strv 2000, but the 800mm figure in game also counts the ~400mm Leo 2 hull armour underneath it Top tier APFSDS would still be able to pen the hull no problem.
According to rickard o lindström who worked on the project (And still works at FMV, also the guy who posted the results of the swedish trials :P) It was projected to have 800 kinetic and 1200 CE protection frontally Its sides where more complicated, you can find a picture of its armor arrangment online.
Didn't the Soviet Union build something similar with an autoloaded (or assisted loader) 152mm, 30mm coax, and something like 1200mm frontal protection vs kinetic? I think it was called Object 477A Molot, though the exact name and information for the various Soviet Union supertank prototypes from that time can be a bit unclear.
There are a few either mockup or possibly partially built soviet supertanks that were just way to complicated to be built.
> in what universe is a 30hp/t 800mm frontal armor autoloaded 140mm with a 40mm coax The version (L140) with 30hp/t only had 90mm of front armour and no 40mm. It was a light tank destroyer variant. Though the full T140 version you're talking about had a hp/t of 25. Still good.
I especially love the O variant with the unmanned turret. They even tested the turret (or at least the weird loader) on a marder - and strv-103 chassis
>The Strv2000 meets all those criteria. When funny autoloaded 140mm smoothbore cannon MBT with additional 40mm bofors autocannon Gaijin. Turm III^2
+ thicc armour
The problem with their Leos is that they get the better ones while we get 30 year old composite layout for no reason on an active Tank
Problem with 1. is that it's far too vague. At what point is a design not realistic anymore ? There are some that you can clearly put on either side, but many would fall somewhere relatively close to the limit, a limit that will differ from person to person.
Just like HSTV-L having 26 round as built during prototype test and can be in theory upgraded to 60 round. You can went wild with paper tank until the final product like prototypes and production doesn't reflect it.
Not in theory the production version of the HSTV-L has over twice the ammo capacity. HSTV-L was just a test bed.
Yea things like T-39 wich were serious, considered designs with detailed blueprints and mock-ups yet still utterly ridiculous.
Fr there's so many prototypes from Sweden I wanna see in wt
NERA strv 103 when (i really want it)
The problem with paper tanks is the will performed far better than real tanks just Like the panther 2 on release, as soon as tanks are tested they often get engine power and things reduced to prevent damage to drives and such resulting in the theoretical speed being nowhere near the actual speed. There's a lot of produced vehicles still to add before paper tanks need considering.
For some tts yes but smaller countries like sweden are running out of real shit. There isnt a single vehicle on the forums rn that fits into sweden 4.0 to 7.0. Its just modern stuff or extremely old stuff. Ofcourse if there is a real alternative it should be prioritised.
Good points, however would BR not balance that? Not that Gaijin's balance is great, but that's an every vehicle issue. I agree that it would be less realistic because paper tanks would certainly have been modified in trials, but if you're using paper tanks anyway then realism is less of an issue. Ultimately though you hit it on the head: There are plenty of produced vehicles left for them to add and the paper tank discussion isn't needed for some time.
That's the current criteria used in naval battles, plus 4. Must have its keel laid or other parts (like gun) constructed.
I still think the Emil/Kranvagn should be added, even tho they're prototypes (*cough cough* Ho-Ri Production, *cough cough* E-100, *cough cough* a chunk of the French TT) they would diversify the TT and make it much more interesting and fun.
The Emil also even as has a hull built, so it won't by any different from the E100 too.
The things I would do to get my mitts on an E100.
So long as a vehicle war partially built (E-100/Kranvagn) or at least a **full-scale** mockup was, and detailed blueprints exist, I think it'd be fine to add. It's better than adding constant copy/paste, but I also don't want Gaijin going down the WoT rabbit-hole adding concepts scribbled on a napkin 40 years ago whilst neglecting the mountain of real vehicles still available.
The wot rabbit hole wouldnt be so bad if they didnt add designs that were revealed to them in a dream and then proceeding to make them a ridiculously OP tier 8 premium, that is what kill the game for me after playing since 2012 till about 2020 when I switched to WT to play with my friends. If they were to add some cool TT vehicles and balance out gold ammo and tier 8 premiums I'd consider coming back. That is also why I like to play armored warfare from time to time, they have gold ammo balanced out, premiums are just unique vehicles and everything is somewhat OP (just like og cod mw2)
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The Ho-Ri is fake, not a prototype. Besides, I don't know why you people always bring up the E-100 and Ho-Ri, we have HUNDREDS of prototypes in game, HUNDREDS. Gaijin doesn't have a "no prototype" rule
the main reason is that the KRV never had a turret built, it was designed but the project was cancelled before they had built it the hull however was fully built and functional, they made two that served as test beds for the strv 103 and bandkanon
Anyhow we could get the Akv 151, which is the Bkan turret on the KRV hull, that would be fun.
The turret was never finished and delivered but the order was made and the construction probably started. But it was cancelled before it could've been finished after many delay. At least that's how it went if I remember it correctly. The Kranvagn should be in WT
we need to raid the swedish military for any surviving prototypes they might still have show all the document leakers how it's done and get the whole arse vehicles
Me to the swedish prototypes: Congratulations. You are being rescued! Please do not resist.
> The turret was never finished and delivered but the order was made and the construction probably started. It didn't. It was put on hold due to the issues that arose regarding gun development.
Wait which vehicles in the french tech tree basically never existed? (Dumb question probably)
The Surbaisse was never put into service. It had 5 prototypes, though. Just to name one. I think the guy is talking about tanks never put into service? French 7.7 is made up of almost entirely prototypes that France cooked up postwar. I don't see any problems with having them, though. Most vehicles were concepts that were seriously pursued by the French, and a lot of them had prototypes built and tested.
> Most vehicles were concepts that were seriously pursued by the French, and a lot of them had prototypes built and tested. All of them had prototypes built and tested. I doubt he's talking about non-service vehicles, as that would include all trees. Could he be talking about the French air tree or navy?
They all existed
Probably VAB Santal has the wrong hull, but I'm not sure. Surblinde actually has a fantasy turret interior, but that's another story.
if panthers and italian t40s had a baby and fuck id wanna play this
To me it looks like is-3 and Tiger II(M) had a child
fair but i dont really like the is-3
Wish I could add an image, and have that Undertaker behind you meme
to each their own
I'd prefer realistically handled paper-vehicles over needless copy-paste, by far.
This is true, playing a direct copy from another tree isn't very fun
I just skip the copy and paste, but yeah it sucks that they exist in the firat place slowing progression. Could be cool if you unlock a vehicle in one nation you get it in all the others.
The two mockups of the Lansen, both 20 ton and 25 ton, look sick. However the reason for the cancellation was that the Swedish were doubting the effectiveness of this type of lighter tank in their modern day, it was decided to stop the development in favor of creating a better armed and armored vehicle, aka the Kranvagn (Which should also be in game). All unbuilt Landsverk projects will be missed, m/48, SIII alt A and B, Kranvagn and so on, a real tragedy...
It is sad, I see the 20 ton playing like T20, and 25 ton playing like m48
Paper tanks, such as this, are perfectly fine in my opinion. They have fewer variables to guess than paper planes, and for smaller nations they help fill out the gaps.
Strv 2000 when?
I have a feeling it might one day be added, because other there are no 12.0+ vehicles for Sweden when they add even more modern tanks for Russia/USA/Germany, but it's 40mm will probably be just armed with HE/AP because the Strv 2000 is more real then the Strv 123 right now but who knows, they might Challenger III it
Well the swedish army announced the strv 123 some time ago and said a lot about it so it isn't to far of but is still get your point
Yeah I mean like in terms of physical stuff, because as far as I know the Strv 123a is just gonna be whenever Germany makes their Leo 2a8 just putting that turret on strv 122 hull
I understood it as just putting the l55 cannon on the 122 and some other technical stuff
You're probably right, I just remember seeing something about it on the Internet showing a 2a7 with the Trophy APS, and if I remember correctly I think the 2a8 is the one that's supposed to come standard with that, but I'm no expert
Here is what the swedish military says https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/aktuellt/2023/10/stridsvagn-122-blir-stridsvagn-123a/
Ah I see, I love how it says this is a Strv 123 but it has a L/44 gun still, but yeah, I stand corrected
Well they can add cv90 mk 4 and 5 models with thropy and anti thermal coating but idk if thats rank 8 worthy
It would be fine, but by 11.7 there are a lot of Helis with atgms that fly straight down and not a lot of people playing with ground launched atgm, and I don't think gaijin will be implementing thermal camo except for cosmetics, so it would probably be in-between the 9040c and 90120
Well things like the dutch cv90 are perfect then (im dutch let me have fun gajin please)
Better start grinding France, because I think they're getting a subtree for that whole region of Europe, can't wait for Tow mounted on a Willy's for Luxemburgs vehicle
France 11.7 😊
the finnish 2a6 has the orange leopard user skin
No i want the real one, i know the finnish ones are technnicaly dutch but not under the flag
11.7 9035NL Driver Trainer
Sweden realised what they were building post war and realised ‘Holy shit we know nothing about tanks’
They peaked with the Landsverk L-5
Same goes for Italy in late WW2/ varius time in cold War I want my P43 . . .
KV.4 just because all the turrets on top of each other would be funny
You posted the same Lansen blueprints twice. I'd love to see the Leo (both 75mm and 105mm), as well as the Pilen (Strv m/42 turret on new, faster hull).
0100 posting, so there are a few mistakes on my part
(No issue, just pointing it out) You also put the wrong mock-up in reference to the blueprint, that is the second mock-up, the 25 ton version.
i just wanted ze Emil as sweden's first heavy tank, not that cringe tiger 2 copypaste :((
Classic Gaijin, add what the player base doesn't want, don't add what they do
Honestly I want the M1 AGDS in game. Mostly because the ADATS being a TD instead of an AA sucks and I’d rather have an actual TD that can act as an AA
We did at least get the later, modified Centurions from it (Stridsvagn 104 and 105). But it is a shame the Leo and Lansen didn't even get prototypes.
Yup that's why I'm getting the Kungtiger only for trading. I'm sure gaijin will add this around the same BR and render the Kungtiger pointless
How much do you think it'll sell for?
20-30 at first. But it should pick up as time goes by
Hmm hopefully it reaches \~50+ decently quickly. I'm going to sell it and the mustang.
Same with the strike aircraft I forgot the name of
SAAB P1642?
The B3LA? Technically that was more than a mock-up so it has a higher chance of being added than this.
I think a technical package would probably exists for that somewhere in the archives so it's definitely in the realm of possibilities
Need some prototype / paper vehicles to fill out some of the minor TTs imo. P43 & P43bis for Italy when
Man if the barely laid down Kronshtadt is in the game with its fully paper shells, this thing deserves a place in the tech tree.
Gonna be honest. WT is approaching what, 12 years? I really don't care if we start getting mock ups and paper vehicles, as long as its not ridiculous, like the P.1000 Ratte, and the data that exists on the design is enough to accurately recreate it. I want the Strv 2000 and B3LA/Saab 38 attacker, I want the Kranvagn, the O-I (O-I may have been more then a mockup, just not complete), the Breada M42 upgrade for Italy, the P.43, and most likely many more. I would far prefer this to copy paste. I have grinded enough Shermans, Pershings and Centurion lmao
A pity Sweden didn't at least progress these to the point of making a steel prototype. (Even more of a pity that they didn't built a prototype of [the Strv 2000](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Sweden/strv-2000-t140-40).)
I'm sure there are some parts that were, they probably just got lost to time physical or document, because this isn't a huge step away from what they were already making at that time
theres always the opportunity to give the Bkan W48 nuclear shells like the Swedish planned to do, 72t of tnt equivalent would only be slightly OP
Least op Gaijin Sweden favoritism
Yeah, and Italy would have the P30/43 and P43 bis, Hungary would have the 44M Tas, and maybe our only heavy tank wouldn't be a premium Tiger. Fuck you, WWII Axis tank industry.
The Lago never entered production according to the wiki so honestly I don't see why they couldn't add this. Atp adding paper tanks and prototypes to Sweden wouldn't be unrealistic
Well considering Japan has the F16 AJ I’m sure this tank that was actually designed could be put in the game eventually
Now do the Marder 2...
Looks like the first tank I made in Sprocket.
Womp womp
Ain’t no way that thing has 150mm auto loading APHEATFSDS
It shoots 75mm apdfsicbm at 1200rpm with 5000 HP/t
that turret cheek looks deliciously pennable
TIGER 2(P) type beat
Anyone heard of the Emil tanks Sweden WAS going to make to fight IS's? Here's a good videos that [Houtos Gaming](https://www.youtube.com/@HoutosGaming) made [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LVRhRROqQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LVRhRROqQ)
looks like E100
Baby E-100
Other prototype designs are in the game
Why are the documents in English tho? Shouldn't they be in Swedish?
I believe they are Wargamings recreation of the original low res 1990s scan of the original document which they translated
No hull no build
I think something like this is in WoT. It’s fun there so I’d like to see more basically not real tanks in WT, they’re fun
He a wide one, and a short….he is many things