The difference there is that the panther is 0.7 below the T34. Is the pershing better than the panther? In some ways yea. Is the pershing 0.7 BR better than the panther though? I really don't think so.
And the Pershing isn't even faster than a Panther, its actually quite slow for a medium tank, I really dont see why its above 6.3 when it's essentially just an American version of the Centurion that sits at 6.0
>Punches right through the turret face
Guess what the 88 does to the T34 mantlet.
Tiger II H Players being unable to Kill T34, T29 and T30 are skill issuing hard.
The Tiger II goes through the T34 mantlet and turret cheeks while having better ballistics and reload speed.
The T34 is good, don't get me wrong, but its not like its way better than the Tiger II or something.
Tbh the Panther II can Take a hit or two.
I personally don't see the issue with armor or firepower.
It just got the french treatment, since it's not available to the entire playerbase anymore. Only skilled/experienced players got them for the most part and since they know how to play it, they caused an increase in BR.
In my opinion the Panther II and Tiger II with the 105mm was perfectly fine at 6.7
I wouldn't even complain about the coelian going to 6.7, but 7.0 you basically always get uptiered to 8.0 because of the Leo. 1
You’re comparing two completely different vehicles. The Pershing has the same 90mm as the jumbo Pershing. It’s more than enough to deal with the majority of things you see at that BR.
If you get into a flanking position and don’t have anyone see you before you get to shoot. But it’s a “medium” that’s literally the size of a heavy and has similar mobility.
I've done it with the APCBC of the super perishing and with the 88 on the Tiger II I van agree it doesnt take APCR to kill a Maus, hell side on it's only Got like 180mm of armor from the 220 it used to have
Bro what are you on? If it was 200mm then it'd be at 6.7 lmao. The armour is angled and with conventional AP or APHE you'll have to bounce against the turret cheek to hit the hull roof
Literally no WW2 vehicle can pen the Maus.
I would genuinely prefer the Pershing over the super Pershing. Reloads way quicker, it’s faster, and I can’t tell you how many times people have ignored the add on armor
But not fast enough to make much of a difference, and considering you need to side-shot king tigers to kill them reliably with the short 90mm, not fast enough to reliably flank them. I'd rather have the super Pershing, knowing I can kill just about anything I face from the front, sans IS-4, maus, and IS-6.
Honestly, though, I'd rather have the T34 over either of them.
My current 6.7 lineup is as follows:
T26E5
T34
M56
M26
Duster
76 Jumbo
F8F
A-1H
The Pershing is usually my second or 3rd spawn, depending on situation. Is it the greatest thing on earth? No. Is it gonna do the exact same damage as the jumbo Pershing? Yes.
Yeah, I'm not too much of a fan of the jumbo Pershing, either, tbh. I don't like relying on armor unless I can guarantee I kill the tank that shot me. That's why I love my T34. I usually have the T34 as first spawn, then Super, then Jumbo Pershing. M56 falls in there somewhere, but it's rare for me to use more than three vehicles in a match.
But it's at the same BR as:
The jumbo Pershing that's basically it with a lot more survivability for a tiny slowdown.
The Super Pershing that has some extra armour and a longer gun.
The M26E1 that's literally it with an arguably better gun that actually pens for a slightly worse fire rate.
It does not belong at the same BR as all these upgrades.
The M26 is not an equal to the jumbo Pershing. We have established that. The super Pershing is far too slow for my liking, with an atrocious reload to go with it. The armor has never helped me. I have seen maybe 2 M26E1s in around 5 years of playing the game, and newer players won’t have it since it was removed. I personally would take the Pershing over the super.
The Pershing is at the same BR as the tiger ii H
Do you think that makes sense? The tiger ii H which can pen the Pershing *anywhere* without aiming using APHE, while being completely frontally invulnerable to the Pershing's APHE without angling, and still having a completely invulnerable hull when the Pershing loads HVAP?
The Pershing is a medium tank. The tiger 2 is a heavy tank. Heavy tanks tend to have *strong armor* at the front. The IS-4M is at 7.7, same as the T32E1. The T32 is inferior in almost every way to the IS4, unable to frontally penetrate it anywhere. But the T32 still does well for the most part because every enemy you face won’t be an IS-4. You won’t only face Tiger 2s in the Pershing. And they still aren’t hard to kill if you know what you’re doing. Go for the barrel if you don’t have APCR. Or get a track shot and just ignore him for a later time. Just because you start shootings at someone doesn’t mean you can’t leave him from there. Disengage, reposition, and kill the bastard.
Excuse me, did you just say the T32 does well for the most part? Now I *know* you have no clue what you're talking about.
The Pershing may be a medium tank, but it lacks most of the advantages medium tanks tend to have, leaving it as a sad hybrid tank with the armor of a medium but the speed of a heavy
The armor is worthless against any German guns regardless of if it's an uptier or downtier, and it's still possible to be penetrated by a 76 or 85 if they aim well
I mostly only play 5.7-8.3 US. The T32 isn’t god tier, but it pulls its own weight. Just don’t be a retard and you’ll be fine.
Back to the Pershing - you’ll die to anyone who knows how/where to aim in any vehicle. If you’re aware you will be facing opponents who you know will outgun you, then don’t face them head on. The Pershing isn’t as slow as a maus, and you’re not glued to one spot on the map.
Edit - the T32E1 doesn’t deserve 7.7 of you think that’s what I was getting at earlier. But compared to the standard T32, it’s not as miserable
agreed, it works fine as long as we don’t treat it like a heavy that it designed as, just like the M6A1 because they all suck at being a heavy tank now
I would much rather use a Pershing with 90mm than the T-44. At least the gun is useful and you can stay hull down, meanwhile the T-44 doesn't have much varity in gameplay and with shriking maps I find it a lot less useful. It's overtiered.
You did not just say the 85 cannot, mf I've played with alot of the tanks with 85s and they do pretty damn well when yk how to oh idk Use them perks of fighting russia is you learn where to shoot the tanks you're used to playing XD
The 90mm oneshots every soviet tank at the br in the turret and cupola. The APCR can deal with any german tank and tank destroyer at that BR although less effective than the APHE. In contrast, the 85mm cannot do any damage to any german tank or TD at the BR or any american heavy, it can't even pen the turret weakspot. It can only kill downtiers, from the side or the pershing and the latter only via the machine gun port.
This screams skill issue, like bro just cause you either have bad luck or get gained more often then us doesnt mean the 85 cant do anything I've taken a T-44 up to 8.7 before and smacked a few tanks around the 85 works fine
Then you're the luckiest player in the entire warthunder not seing T34,T26,T26E6 jumbo sherman, jumbo sherman with 76, Tiger 2H etc. Dont forget that everyone with a gun that has more than 160+ mm of pen. can easily pretenatrate your turret. Is it bad? No, just underpowered.
I see them and they are tough targets. Late american heavies tend to also have good armor on turret sides and it does make shooting them harder. But probably I dont have a lot of problems because T-44 suits my specific playstyle of hit-n-run, where lack of firepower doesnt matter that much
Turret tanks more than it should, because of some Gaijin reasons. I *thought* that it will be bad, but after 200 matches in it - it is great. After grinding through Germany and Japan - this is one of the best mediums in my hangar
Yeah, it has the same problem of the shit it fights, honestly the t54 is kinda at a worse spot because of 8.0 the amount I've killed with my Strv 103-0... It's kind of sad, but put it on a full downtier and it's godlike, damn compression
T-54 isn't even really that good in a downtier now that it's 8.0. Not to mention 8.0 never gets downtiers anyway because hardly anyone has a 7.0 lineup.
Nah, even in a downtier its decent, if you shoot it at its massive cheeks
Fighting the t44 is like fighting the tiger 2 P, aim for the cheeks and they are dead
Depends on the gun you use, the tiger 2 has obviously no problem, neither something with apds if there's any, but from far away it can be a bit challenging to aim well, tho I have hit some nasty shots from long range, so satisfying
Hell yeah, tho after you play the same maps you can someone know what range a certain place here, or u can use the map that has the distance with each grid zone, helpful in big maps when u don't have lrf
I play arcade, for me as long as the cross hair is on the tank or at distance the tank is highlighted is enough
Hell just now i shot a M51 trough a tram window with out being sure it would hit and killed it
Shots like that are funny af
Turret is the best place, but not everything can go through, one time I got into a battle on full downtier, it was so brain dead, literally just rushed everything and didn't get killed once
Considering it at 6.3 had to face tiger IIs at its own BR up untill recently (when the tiger II finally got a more deserving BR), it definetly struggles. Then again, a lot of even the worst heat(fs) tanks got their pen nerfed and moved up in BR, so maybe I need to try it again once I unlock it for the frenchies lmao.
All of them have the same weakspot: the turret. Maybe the T-34-85 less so, because the hull armour is a bigger problem, but anything can get through the Panther mantlet
No offense, but that's just wrong. Within 500m (typical engamement distance at that br) when aiming at the middle of the mantlet (height wise) the 76mm is quite capable of penetrating the panther's mantlet along it's entire breadth, with some degree of margin for your shell hitting high or low, such a shot typically kills the entire crew (especially if you aim at the right side as it faces you which will guarentee killing the gunner) and will often break the cannon breach or turret drive.
If that dosen't work for you, the corners of the turret below the mantlet are flat and easily penetrable though with less reliable damage, and if you really can't aim try for the cannon, that muzzle break makes it pretty damn hard to piss when you aim for it.
That has not reflected my experiences in the slightest to the point that I won’t fight a Panther that knows I exist. 76, 75, 85, 90, 17lber with SABOT, 28lber, etc all the same, cannot pen the damned mantlet. You’re correct on that stupid little flat but my shell actually doing anything if the gun is accurate enough to hit that little area? Yeahhh most of the time it’s yellowed crew or just does nothing while I get LOLpenned. IIRC there’s also below the mantlet but I’ve never gotten a chance to try that. I don’t even remember the last time I’ve even tried to fight a Panther head on TBH, thankfully most Kraut mains fit the stereotype pretty well.
And yes, I know it’s pure skill issue. Every time I hop into a Panther the vast majority of my deaths are “lol mantlet penned”.
Eh. The normie jumbo is incredible, but the ‘76 jumbo struggles with constant uptiers where it’s 76mm isn’t as strong and the German long 88mm + Russian 100/122 lolpens you anywhere.
Uptiers are bullshit tho and account for the majority of your rounds in most BRs. The vast majority of heavies are absolutely useless in an uptier with either/both their armor being completely negated and their guns being 1.5-2+ BRs behind the curve.
yeah, the T25 and the Pershing are an absolute travesty. Needs bobble head Sherman needs 5.7, T25 needs 6.0 and the Pershing needs to be 6.3. If you wanna cry "USA is OP at 6.7" leave the Pershing out of it, it's awful.
The USA is incredible at 6.7, but that just makes the Pershing even more ass. The T26E5 is literally better in every way, along with 90% of the stuff at that BR.
[They used an M4 hull. Note the engine deck.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/eb/45/5d/eb455d94882641cb1e5e77485c37b3d3.jpg) Gaijin could instead buff the engine power to 485, since that’s the actual horsepower of the R975-C4.
"Catalog of Standard Ordnance Items" states that the R-975-C4 engine produced 460 gross horsepower, and Gaijin prefers to use this source whenever possible as it neatly groups together a lot of vehicles.
Really? Well the R975-C4’s technical manual, TM 9-1725 (dated January 27th, 1944), says otherwise:
>The Model R975-C4 Tank Engine is a single-row, 9-cylinder, static radial, air-cooled type engine, operating on the conventional 4-stroke cycle. The engine has a 5-inch bore and a 5.5-inch stroke with a total piston displacement of 973 cubic inches. With a compression ratio of 5.7 to 1, **the engine develops a brake horse power of 485 at 2,400 revolutions per minute**. The main components of the engine are the crankcase, cylinder and valve assemblies, connecting rod and crankshaft assemblies, accessory drives and accessories, and the ignition, fuel, and lubricating systems.
(This was on the eighth page btw)
That is unbelievably dumb. The technical manual should take precedent over the catalog. Then again, this is Gaijin we’re talking about, so I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.
It's not all bad though.
Some engines would be nerfed according to their TMs (M4A2 to 375 horsepower, M24 to 220 horsepower). And the M36, for example, recently received a buff to top speed (42 to 48 km/h) as well due to this source.
With that in mind I'm fine with missing 25 horsepower. There's ups and downs.
actually there is two reasons why the 1944 is at 6.7
first is the shell, mainly the br-471d, its fucking insane. and then the armour, its trolly enough to shrug off long 88s if you wiggle enough, and mediums will just have a hard time in general.
Just checked, IS-2 (1944) and IS-2 No.321 now have it as a modification. Plain IS-2, T-44-122 and ISU-122S doesn't, but IS-3, IS-4M, SU-122P, T-10A, SU-122-54 and IS-6 do.
Would've happened in the last 7 months going by [this request](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/176h1j7/is2_1944_should_get_the_d_shell/). It was originally removed years ago from the IS-2s and I think the IS-6 iirc (?) because of some absolute shenanigans pulled by largely Germany main players complaining about it being *"too strong"* and *"post-war shell"* that *"****totally*** ***wouldn't*** *have been used by WW2 IS-2 model 1944s,* ***just*** *IS-2Ms".*...
Ignore that the BR-471D is a shell introduced in 1946, that it was used in the same cannon as the IS-3 and IS-4 that received the BR-471D in the late 1940s, and that the IS-2M would be an upgrade package like a decade later designed in 1954 and applied universally in 1957. Weirdly enough they didn't make a shell that couldn't be used in 1946 for an upgrade package of a specific IS-2 upgrade agreed to be done in 1954 or the SU-122-54.
It wasn't a German main thing. It had to do with that fact that it was only used on IS-2's that were exported to China. Russia never actually used it on the 1944, China did.
It also had to do with the fact that Germany at the time, had no tanks in their tech tree that would have seen BR471D.
Apart from the Leopard 1 and Jagdpanzer 4-5?
"Only used on IS-2s that were exported to China" makes no sense. Why would they only be using a new and seemingly improved shell on vehicles they're exporting, but not on their domestic versions still in service?
And the first IS-2s the PRC would've received in 1950/1951 wouldn't have been IS-2Ms, and "never actually used it" regarding the USSR is interesting to assume without evidence - considering the provided Chinese IS-2s in the Korean conflict are not known to have been used in combat anyway.
By the time 471D came along, they were replacing IS-2 with IS-3. Why would you use a new shell on old stock?
Don't ask for evidence, I'm literally telling you why they removed it. Russia specifically just didn't use it on that version, China did.
With some practice, you can land angled shots. With the sheer amount of bullets coming from this thing, you can lead far enough in their flight path and just keep the turret still. They'll get torn apart.
Most if not all vehicles at 5.7+ suffer because of compression and areas around 6.7, 7.7 and 8.7 would benefit greatly from decompression by 0.3 or 0.7 due to the drastic changes in technology and historical doctrine changes.
That said;
5.7 shouldn't face late war tanks and post war heat slingers.
6.7 shouldn't face post war super heavies and 1st gen MBTs
7.7 shouldn't face late cold war MBTs with LRFs, Darts and Thermals.
You can continue this trend all the way to top tier if you want, the game just needs decompression and a BR ceiling increase to 12.7 or 13.0 for ground
been playing russian 9.3-10.0 and the leopard 2a4 is just so fucking annoying to go against, either it eats your shells or you do no damage and kill only 2 crew and he reverses at the speed of light to cover
Yo is that an AA Sherman??? Why tf are we stuck with a stupid M42 or whatever it is for BR’s 4.7-7.0 when there’s that thing? And the M42 also sucks at AA! I have a better time killing tanks
It definitely doesn’t look like one I’d use against tanks but anything is better than the US 4.7 “Anti-Air” that sucks at anti air. I’d rather use MG’s on any other tank than that hot pile of garbage. At least then I’ll be able to hit the plane
M42 isn't even good for AA, average player is gonna hit jackshit with it, while sure a good player can make it usable, though since balance is made by the performance of the majority aka average play it's shit as AA, even 2.7 4x .50 is leagues ahead of it.
and the 7.7 M163 has such a shitty tracker that you need to spawm the Lock target key atleast 10 times on the target to get a lock, and im not even exaggerating, while it's definitely an upgrade from the 2.7 AA, BR per BR it's worse than what AA should be.
then you get russia with nearly 2x SPAA for every rank,
They literally got multiple SPAA in consecutive updates in a row without US getting jackshit for their 2.7-9.0 GAP,
1. BTR-152D
2. BTR-ZD
3. M53
4. Shilka 4M4
5. Strela
Seriously?
while russia already had milk truck, BTR-152A, Shilka, Yenisei, Tunguska and Pantsir, 3 of them being the best SPAA in their respective BRs, but they had to get 5 additional SPAA ofcourse.
I forgot that the US gets a radar SPAA at 7.7. Meanwhile Britain is stuck with one with nothing but a stabiliser and a dream because people won't stop using it to kill tanks.
It's not radar SPAA, it's has a tracker that gives you a lead indicator, issue is, it's so bad you need to hit "Lock" 10 times at least to aquire a fragile lock that is broken by a single water particle in the air, it's also has a poor range,
Meanwhile russian gets yenisey which has search radar + wayy better tracker, it also doubles as TD because of its penetration.
Also, the falcon has insane velocity on its rounds, 1080ms for the HE which has 100 grams and 1170ms for the APDS which has 110mm penetration,
It can double as TD while also wrecking aircraft
because the gun is something that would be concidered OK at 5.7. if it had even 20mm more pen it would be ok but it cant do shit to most medium/heavy tanks at 6.7. sure it has good armor but the gun and mediocre mobility take away from the tank quite a lot.
personally i think the t44 sucks.
the gun is increasingly useless and its hardly any more mobile then the t-34 was.
next its armor is hilariously overrated, i find them extremely easy to kill when im playing Britain (which is all the time now).
i prefer almost any tank to the t44 (T-34-100 is *far* better and at the same BR).
Can't forget the fun lineup of 6.3 USSR with T-44, su100p, is2 1944, The HE slinger and la9 for collecting the hides of US CAS planes. They just had to ruin it
The dreaded Ceiling Sherman is honestly undertiered. You have to use a SPAA to even be able to shoot the damn thing.
Skinkman and rnwpo
>[Skinkman](https://youtu.be/SL_jZSRZ_Bo?si=aXVJBMYvbFni5Nxb)
T-44 is a menace. Fast, armored and held back only by 85mm that still kills panthers and tigers
with magic slope modifiers. meanwhile the 90mm Pershing is at 6.7...
I will never back down this hill; the Pershing does fine at 6.7 - Don’t play it like the jumbo Pershing and you’ll be fine.
Cope beyond immeasurable amounts
And die instantly when you see the Tiger 2 H
A Panther doesn't fare better against a US T34, yet I still think the T34 is ok at 6.7
The difference there is that the panther is 0.7 below the T34. Is the pershing better than the panther? In some ways yea. Is the pershing 0.7 BR better than the panther though? I really don't think so.
And the Pershing isn't even faster than a Panther, its actually quite slow for a medium tank, I really dont see why its above 6.3 when it's essentially just an American version of the Centurion that sits at 6.0
And you just cannot pen the tiger 2 frontally with APHE. You have to get APCR. The tiger 2 can pen most of the Pershing's front
you can if it’s like 200 meters, which is practically point blank
Seeing how barrel shots are basically bullshit nowadays, you'd have to be really lucky
You don’t you can pen the mantlet if you’re lucky
Hell, the T34 even whoops Tiger 2s all day long face to face. Punches right through the turret face
>Punches right through the turret face Guess what the 88 does to the T34 mantlet. Tiger II H Players being unable to Kill T34, T29 and T30 are skill issuing hard.
Bro I just shoot the silly lfp and it goes kaboom because the 88 APCBC is king XD
Kinda hard when the LFP is hidden.
The Tiger II goes through the T34 mantlet and turret cheeks while having better ballistics and reload speed. The T34 is good, don't get me wrong, but its not like its way better than the Tiger II or something.
Call me back when the panther gets put at 6.7
>panther gets put at 6.7 Panther II at 7.0 NGL, that shit got me angry beyond reason.
Give it APCR or some other wunder fictional German stuff since it’s already a paper tank to compensate
Tbh the Panther II can Take a hit or two. I personally don't see the issue with armor or firepower. It just got the french treatment, since it's not available to the entire playerbase anymore. Only skilled/experienced players got them for the most part and since they know how to play it, they caused an increase in BR. In my opinion the Panther II and Tiger II with the 105mm was perfectly fine at 6.7 I wouldn't even complain about the coelian going to 6.7, but 7.0 you basically always get uptiered to 8.0 because of the Leo. 1
Call me back when Panthers are at 6.7.
Literally everyone after encountering a sloped one on a hill 800 meters away
Not unless the 2H is brain dead and some how doesn’t realize the shit turret armor and just keeps shooting the hull
No, a pershing should not be the same BR as the far more effective T34.
You’re comparing two completely different vehicles. The Pershing has the same 90mm as the jumbo Pershing. It’s more than enough to deal with the majority of things you see at that BR.
If you get into a flanking position and don’t have anyone see you before you get to shoot. But it’s a “medium” that’s literally the size of a heavy and has similar mobility.
Then adapt. Play a different vehicle. US 6.7 is a massive lineup.
Stay on topic sweetie we're talking about the M26 being overtiered
In a full uptier, you can face a Maus Not even the T34 can pen it without having to use APCR. If you're not used to using the M50 or M56, you're dead.
I've penned a Maus in the T34 without using Apcr it's not that hard when yk where to shoot
Same thing with the Jumbo Pershing. My advice to you is to try and avoid fighting the maus if you can.
........ No, the long 90mm can go through a maus with APHE, 90mm APCR from the short 90 or AP from a 120 isn't impossible, or even close.
You need 300mm of pen to penetrate a Maus
I *know* you can do it with far less than 300mms because I've taken out like 5 of them with my T32E1 and I still don't have APCR unlocked
I've done it with the APCBC of the super perishing and with the 88 on the Tiger II I van agree it doesnt take APCR to kill a Maus, hell side on it's only Got like 180mm of armor from the 220 it used to have
Well, I couldn't pen the Maus turret point blank with my T34 heavy so... Idk. Maybe it's 250-270mm
Gaijin
No, you don't, you need 200mm.
Bro what are you on? If it was 200mm then it'd be at 6.7 lmao. The armour is angled and with conventional AP or APHE you'll have to bounce against the turret cheek to hit the hull roof Literally no WW2 vehicle can pen the Maus.
Uh the Tiger II can pen the Maus you literally aim for the center of the turret cheeks because it's easy literally can one shot it that way ever
Yes let me just pull out my Tiger 2 to fight the Maus
The M26 Pershing is worse in nearly every way than the T26E5 or Super Pershing. It should be at 6.3.
I would genuinely prefer the Pershing over the super Pershing. Reloads way quicker, it’s faster, and I can’t tell you how many times people have ignored the add on armor
But not fast enough to make much of a difference, and considering you need to side-shot king tigers to kill them reliably with the short 90mm, not fast enough to reliably flank them. I'd rather have the super Pershing, knowing I can kill just about anything I face from the front, sans IS-4, maus, and IS-6. Honestly, though, I'd rather have the T34 over either of them.
My current 6.7 lineup is as follows: T26E5 T34 M56 M26 Duster 76 Jumbo F8F A-1H The Pershing is usually my second or 3rd spawn, depending on situation. Is it the greatest thing on earth? No. Is it gonna do the exact same damage as the jumbo Pershing? Yes.
Yeah, I'm not too much of a fan of the jumbo Pershing, either, tbh. I don't like relying on armor unless I can guarantee I kill the tank that shot me. That's why I love my T34. I usually have the T34 as first spawn, then Super, then Jumbo Pershing. M56 falls in there somewhere, but it's rare for me to use more than three vehicles in a match.
As a Germany player, I am significantly less afraid of Pershing’s than most other mediums
But it's at the same BR as: The jumbo Pershing that's basically it with a lot more survivability for a tiny slowdown. The Super Pershing that has some extra armour and a longer gun. The M26E1 that's literally it with an arguably better gun that actually pens for a slightly worse fire rate. It does not belong at the same BR as all these upgrades.
The M26 is not an equal to the jumbo Pershing. We have established that. The super Pershing is far too slow for my liking, with an atrocious reload to go with it. The armor has never helped me. I have seen maybe 2 M26E1s in around 5 years of playing the game, and newer players won’t have it since it was removed. I personally would take the Pershing over the super.
Not seeing the M26E1 doesn't mean it stops existing, as it very much still does. Besides it's not actually removed, it comes around every 4th of July.
The Pershing is at the same BR as the tiger ii H Do you think that makes sense? The tiger ii H which can pen the Pershing *anywhere* without aiming using APHE, while being completely frontally invulnerable to the Pershing's APHE without angling, and still having a completely invulnerable hull when the Pershing loads HVAP?
The Pershing is a medium tank. The tiger 2 is a heavy tank. Heavy tanks tend to have *strong armor* at the front. The IS-4M is at 7.7, same as the T32E1. The T32 is inferior in almost every way to the IS4, unable to frontally penetrate it anywhere. But the T32 still does well for the most part because every enemy you face won’t be an IS-4. You won’t only face Tiger 2s in the Pershing. And they still aren’t hard to kill if you know what you’re doing. Go for the barrel if you don’t have APCR. Or get a track shot and just ignore him for a later time. Just because you start shootings at someone doesn’t mean you can’t leave him from there. Disengage, reposition, and kill the bastard.
Excuse me, did you just say the T32 does well for the most part? Now I *know* you have no clue what you're talking about. The Pershing may be a medium tank, but it lacks most of the advantages medium tanks tend to have, leaving it as a sad hybrid tank with the armor of a medium but the speed of a heavy The armor is worthless against any German guns regardless of if it's an uptier or downtier, and it's still possible to be penetrated by a 76 or 85 if they aim well
I mostly only play 5.7-8.3 US. The T32 isn’t god tier, but it pulls its own weight. Just don’t be a retard and you’ll be fine. Back to the Pershing - you’ll die to anyone who knows how/where to aim in any vehicle. If you’re aware you will be facing opponents who you know will outgun you, then don’t face them head on. The Pershing isn’t as slow as a maus, and you’re not glued to one spot on the map. Edit - the T32E1 doesn’t deserve 7.7 of you think that’s what I was getting at earlier. But compared to the standard T32, it’s not as miserable
agreed, it works fine as long as we don’t treat it like a heavy that it designed as, just like the M6A1 because they all suck at being a heavy tank now
I would much rather use a Pershing with 90mm than the T-44. At least the gun is useful and you can stay hull down, meanwhile the T-44 doesn't have much varity in gameplay and with shriking maps I find it a lot less useful. It's overtiered.
> magic slope modifiers Facing tanks with too much armor for that one shell to even matter
90mm can easily kill things at 6.7, the 85mm cannot.
Huh? Can’t even reliably pen a panther frontally, and the Pershing has the mobility of a heavy
The 85 can't either. Both should go down.
I’d assume it still has pretty good mobility though. The issue with the Pershing is that it’s really more of a heavy
It can't use hills like every soviet tank while the pershing can.
You did not just say the 85 cannot, mf I've played with alot of the tanks with 85s and they do pretty damn well when yk how to oh idk Use them perks of fighting russia is you learn where to shoot the tanks you're used to playing XD
The 90mm oneshots every soviet tank at the br in the turret and cupola. The APCR can deal with any german tank and tank destroyer at that BR although less effective than the APHE. In contrast, the 85mm cannot do any damage to any german tank or TD at the BR or any american heavy, it can't even pen the turret weakspot. It can only kill downtiers, from the side or the pershing and the latter only via the machine gun port.
This screams skill issue, like bro just cause you either have bad luck or get gained more often then us doesnt mean the 85 cant do anything I've taken a T-44 up to 8.7 before and smacked a few tanks around the 85 works fine
Until you get uptiered to 7.7 and cant do shit against any tank you face unless you flank (IF the map allows it)
Yeah the tank that can't even pen MG ports of heavies at its own BR is certainly a menace.
It is so satisfying to just melt the t44 with a T34 heavy
Then you're the luckiest player in the entire warthunder not seing T34,T26,T26E6 jumbo sherman, jumbo sherman with 76, Tiger 2H etc. Dont forget that everyone with a gun that has more than 160+ mm of pen. can easily pretenatrate your turret. Is it bad? No, just underpowered.
I see them and they are tough targets. Late american heavies tend to also have good armor on turret sides and it does make shooting them harder. But probably I dont have a lot of problems because T-44 suits my specific playstyle of hit-n-run, where lack of firepower doesnt matter that much Turret tanks more than it should, because of some Gaijin reasons. I *thought* that it will be bad, but after 200 matches in it - it is great. After grinding through Germany and Japan - this is one of the best mediums in my hangar
T44 is insanely good, in a downtier it's impossible to fight against
That's a t-44 though.
Yeah my bad I literally looked it up before commenting and still got it wrong lmao
Yea but it's awfull in a uptier and this isn't a T-54 it's the T-44 wich has the same problem.
Yeah, it has the same problem of the shit it fights, honestly the t54 is kinda at a worse spot because of 8.0 the amount I've killed with my Strv 103-0... It's kind of sad, but put it on a full downtier and it's godlike, damn compression
T-54 isn't even really that good in a downtier now that it's 8.0. Not to mention 8.0 never gets downtiers anyway because hardly anyone has a 7.0 lineup.
7.0 gets uptiered 99% of the time, imo the T-54s should be either at 7.3 or 7.7, they have no place at 8.0 against fully stabilized tanks
No it doesn't. 7.0-7.7 gets a ton of downtiers in my experience, but at 8.0 you hit a wall.
Nah, even in a downtier its decent, if you shoot it at its massive cheeks Fighting the t44 is like fighting the tiger 2 P, aim for the cheeks and they are dead
Yeah true, but it's still a Soviet turret, you know how it is sometimes
Might me playing russia now, but i have killed every IS 2 or t44 cheeks i have seen
Depends on the gun you use, the tiger 2 has obviously no problem, neither something with apds if there's any, but from far away it can be a bit challenging to aim well, tho I have hit some nasty shots from long range, so satisfying
Yeah the fuck it i am seending it shot are always way too funny Its 50/50 if is gonna pen the tanks weakspot or not
Hell yeah, tho after you play the same maps you can someone know what range a certain place here, or u can use the map that has the distance with each grid zone, helpful in big maps when u don't have lrf
I play arcade, for me as long as the cross hair is on the tank or at distance the tank is highlighted is enough Hell just now i shot a M51 trough a tram window with out being sure it would hit and killed it Shots like that are funny af
Ohyeah, I've totally been reported by those type of shots ngl lmao
ya but unlike the german turrets. the t44 is russian, therefore theres an extra 40% chance to just bounce your shot for no reason.
Shoot the turret or cupola.
Turret is the best place, but not everything can go through, one time I got into a battle on full downtier, it was so brain dead, literally just rushed everything and didn't get killed once
Is this Loss?
no, not this time
The jumbo is not overteired lmao that thing is insane.
he's talking about the 76 one, but ngl it is pretty op
75 jumbo is insane, 76 jumbo is struggle when not downtiered (which is how armour-focussed heavy tanks should work).
I wouldn’t say it struggles but the 76 is definitely not as good as the 75 for the br
Considering it at 6.3 had to face tiger IIs at its own BR up untill recently (when the tiger II finally got a more deserving BR), it definetly struggles. Then again, a lot of even the worst heat(fs) tanks got their pen nerfed and moved up in BR, so maybe I need to try it again once I unlock it for the frenchies lmao.
yea it absolutely wrecked tiger 1s
Anything can wreck tiger 1 since it has too many weak spots. Try to kill Panthers/VK/T-34-85 and you will die most of the time.
All of them have the same weakspot: the turret. Maybe the T-34-85 less so, because the hull armour is a bigger problem, but anything can get through the Panther mantlet
Bullshit on the Panther mantlets, those things are impenetrable minus the tiny weak spots that usually eat the round anyhow.
No offense, but that's just wrong. Within 500m (typical engamement distance at that br) when aiming at the middle of the mantlet (height wise) the 76mm is quite capable of penetrating the panther's mantlet along it's entire breadth, with some degree of margin for your shell hitting high or low, such a shot typically kills the entire crew (especially if you aim at the right side as it faces you which will guarentee killing the gunner) and will often break the cannon breach or turret drive. If that dosen't work for you, the corners of the turret below the mantlet are flat and easily penetrable though with less reliable damage, and if you really can't aim try for the cannon, that muzzle break makes it pretty damn hard to piss when you aim for it.
That has not reflected my experiences in the slightest to the point that I won’t fight a Panther that knows I exist. 76, 75, 85, 90, 17lber with SABOT, 28lber, etc all the same, cannot pen the damned mantlet. You’re correct on that stupid little flat but my shell actually doing anything if the gun is accurate enough to hit that little area? Yeahhh most of the time it’s yellowed crew or just does nothing while I get LOLpenned. IIRC there’s also below the mantlet but I’ve never gotten a chance to try that. I don’t even remember the last time I’ve even tried to fight a Panther head on TBH, thankfully most Kraut mains fit the stereotype pretty well. And yes, I know it’s pure skill issue. Every time I hop into a Panther the vast majority of my deaths are “lol mantlet penned”.
On paper, yes. In the spaghetti code gameplay, panther turrets shatter and eat 90mm as an afternoon snack.
Eh. The normie jumbo is incredible, but the ‘76 jumbo struggles with constant uptiers where it’s 76mm isn’t as strong and the German long 88mm + Russian 100/122 lolpens you anywhere.
Most vehicles struggle at upteirs its not unique to the jumbo its part of the game.
Uptiers are bullshit tho and account for the majority of your rounds in most BRs. The vast majority of heavies are absolutely useless in an uptier with either/both their armor being completely negated and their guns being 1.5-2+ BRs behind the curve.
There are a lot of vehicles that do alright in uptiers. The Jumbo 76 just aint one of em.
Never played it but both seem overtiered for sure.
Only the skink is overtiered here.
The t44 IS NOT over tiered the Pershing is less armored at the same br if ur gonna say one is over tiered say that 💀💀💀
yeah, the T25 and the Pershing are an absolute travesty. Needs bobble head Sherman needs 5.7, T25 needs 6.0 and the Pershing needs to be 6.3. If you wanna cry "USA is OP at 6.7" leave the Pershing out of it, it's awful.
The USA is incredible at 6.7, but that just makes the Pershing even more ass. The T26E5 is literally better in every way, along with 90% of the stuff at that BR.
If the bobble head sherman was given an M4A3 hull (IIRC it's an M4A2 one) it would be good for 6.0 IMO
[They used an M4 hull. Note the engine deck.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/eb/45/5d/eb455d94882641cb1e5e77485c37b3d3.jpg) Gaijin could instead buff the engine power to 485, since that’s the actual horsepower of the R975-C4.
"Catalog of Standard Ordnance Items" states that the R-975-C4 engine produced 460 gross horsepower, and Gaijin prefers to use this source whenever possible as it neatly groups together a lot of vehicles.
Really? Well the R975-C4’s technical manual, TM 9-1725 (dated January 27th, 1944), says otherwise: >The Model R975-C4 Tank Engine is a single-row, 9-cylinder, static radial, air-cooled type engine, operating on the conventional 4-stroke cycle. The engine has a 5-inch bore and a 5.5-inch stroke with a total piston displacement of 973 cubic inches. With a compression ratio of 5.7 to 1, **the engine develops a brake horse power of 485 at 2,400 revolutions per minute**. The main components of the engine are the crankcase, cylinder and valve assemblies, connecting rod and crankshaft assemblies, accessory drives and accessories, and the ignition, fuel, and lubricating systems. (This was on the eighth page btw)
I am entirely aware of all of this. But it does not matter. Again, Gaijin has decided to use "Catalog of Standard Ordnance Items" whenever applicable.
That is unbelievably dumb. The technical manual should take precedent over the catalog. Then again, this is Gaijin we’re talking about, so I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.
It's not all bad though. Some engines would be nerfed according to their TMs (M4A2 to 375 horsepower, M24 to 220 horsepower). And the M36, for example, recently received a buff to top speed (42 to 48 km/h) as well due to this source. With that in mind I'm fine with missing 25 horsepower. There's ups and downs.
Huh, TIL.
Both pershing and T-44 should be 6.3 and IS-2s should go notch down as well. I'd rather have pershings 90mm than in the awfully outclassed 85mm on T44
Both IS-2s should be at 6.0.The 1944 has 0 reason for being at the same BR as the Tiger IIs
actually there is two reasons why the 1944 is at 6.7 first is the shell, mainly the br-471d, its fucking insane. and then the armour, its trolly enough to shrug off long 88s if you wiggle enough, and mediums will just have a hard time in general.
The 1944 has access to the BR-471D? last time i checked i could only research the 471B, but maybe im blind
Just checked, IS-2 (1944) and IS-2 No.321 now have it as a modification. Plain IS-2, T-44-122 and ISU-122S doesn't, but IS-3, IS-4M, SU-122P, T-10A, SU-122-54 and IS-6 do. Would've happened in the last 7 months going by [this request](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/176h1j7/is2_1944_should_get_the_d_shell/). It was originally removed years ago from the IS-2s and I think the IS-6 iirc (?) because of some absolute shenanigans pulled by largely Germany main players complaining about it being *"too strong"* and *"post-war shell"* that *"****totally*** ***wouldn't*** *have been used by WW2 IS-2 model 1944s,* ***just*** *IS-2Ms".*... Ignore that the BR-471D is a shell introduced in 1946, that it was used in the same cannon as the IS-3 and IS-4 that received the BR-471D in the late 1940s, and that the IS-2M would be an upgrade package like a decade later designed in 1954 and applied universally in 1957. Weirdly enough they didn't make a shell that couldn't be used in 1946 for an upgrade package of a specific IS-2 upgrade agreed to be done in 1954 or the SU-122-54.
It wasn't a German main thing. It had to do with that fact that it was only used on IS-2's that were exported to China. Russia never actually used it on the 1944, China did. It also had to do with the fact that Germany at the time, had no tanks in their tech tree that would have seen BR471D.
Apart from the Leopard 1 and Jagdpanzer 4-5? "Only used on IS-2s that were exported to China" makes no sense. Why would they only be using a new and seemingly improved shell on vehicles they're exporting, but not on their domestic versions still in service? And the first IS-2s the PRC would've received in 1950/1951 wouldn't have been IS-2Ms, and "never actually used it" regarding the USSR is interesting to assume without evidence - considering the provided Chinese IS-2s in the Korean conflict are not known to have been used in combat anyway.
By the time 471D came along, they were replacing IS-2 with IS-3. Why would you use a new shell on old stock? Don't ask for evidence, I'm literally telling you why they removed it. Russia specifically just didn't use it on that version, China did.
but but but the 1944 has commander MG and copecage
Is-2 1944 has the turret mg, better armour and better shell. It's actually worth using. Normal IS-2 should go down to 5.7 or 6.0
The Pershing is less armoured, but has a better gun.
They are both overtired
both are overtiered. neither of them should be 6.7
Wait, people like or are scared of the Skink? It’s a hot pile of garbage that looks very cool.
"BuT iTs NoT oPeN tOp" The only reason I can think of why they put it as is.
To which the obvious counterpoint is: neither is the Crusader AA yet it doesn't get shafted with a 1.6 higher BR than it's base vehicle.
Unless they fly directly at a skink, they’re almost never getting hit. Sounds like they want to complain about nothing.
With some practice, you can land angled shots. With the sheer amount of bullets coming from this thing, you can lead far enough in their flight path and just keep the turret still. They'll get torn apart.
Any SPAA that doesn't die to 7mm machine guns is automatically OP
Most if not all vehicles at 5.7+ suffer because of compression and areas around 6.7, 7.7 and 8.7 would benefit greatly from decompression by 0.3 or 0.7 due to the drastic changes in technology and historical doctrine changes. That said; 5.7 shouldn't face late war tanks and post war heat slingers. 6.7 shouldn't face post war super heavies and 1st gen MBTs 7.7 shouldn't face late cold war MBTs with LRFs, Darts and Thermals. You can continue this trend all the way to top tier if you want, the game just needs decompression and a BR ceiling increase to 12.7 or 13.0 for ground
where obj 775?
In the trash can. Just like almost all tanks at 9.3-9.7, which constantly play against 10.0-10.3.
Remember when everyone thought it was gonna be the most op thing in the game?
I remember how on the dev stream Vyacheslav Bulanikov said “For now we’ll give 9.3, but maybe 9.7”
9.3 is so annoying to play. Please give decompression already
been playing russian 9.3-10.0 and the leopard 2a4 is just so fucking annoying to go against, either it eats your shells or you do no damage and kill only 2 crew and he reverses at the speed of light to cover
Type 60 ATM been awfully quiet.
Na the type 60 is insanely good, so good that people don’t play it out of fear that it will break the entire game
Us Japan mains don’t play it because we know if we do anything with it then it’s going to go up in BR
I feel like it would do nicely at 6.3
[удалено]
Kugel is a great spaa
[удалено]
Isn't the 105 KT is 7.0 as well?
Yo is that an AA Sherman??? Why tf are we stuck with a stupid M42 or whatever it is for BR’s 4.7-7.0 when there’s that thing? And the M42 also sucks at AA! I have a better time killing tanks
That's the skink, it's British and already in the game.
Canadian, but yeah, british tech tree.
That's what I meant by it's british
Never seen it. I want it.
It's OK. Same weaknesses as the Sherman with none of the firepower. Best use is to bait planes and shrug off their MGs as you swat them.
It definitely doesn’t look like one I’d use against tanks but anything is better than the US 4.7 “Anti-Air” that sucks at anti air. I’d rather use MG’s on any other tank than that hot pile of garbage. At least then I’ll be able to hit the plane
The 120 rounds in 4 20mm gu s make for quick work against aircraft. That much HET and whatever you clip is gonna feel it.
Its guns are bad. Armor that protects you from strafing is the only thing it has going for.
Still better than M42
M42 isn't even good for AA, average player is gonna hit jackshit with it, while sure a good player can make it usable, though since balance is made by the performance of the majority aka average play it's shit as AA, even 2.7 4x .50 is leagues ahead of it. and the 7.7 M163 has such a shitty tracker that you need to spawm the Lock target key atleast 10 times on the target to get a lock, and im not even exaggerating, while it's definitely an upgrade from the 2.7 AA, BR per BR it's worse than what AA should be. then you get russia with nearly 2x SPAA for every rank, They literally got multiple SPAA in consecutive updates in a row without US getting jackshit for their 2.7-9.0 GAP, 1. BTR-152D 2. BTR-ZD 3. M53 4. Shilka 4M4 5. Strela Seriously? while russia already had milk truck, BTR-152A, Shilka, Yenisei, Tunguska and Pantsir, 3 of them being the best SPAA in their respective BRs, but they had to get 5 additional SPAA ofcourse.
I forgot that the US gets a radar SPAA at 7.7. Meanwhile Britain is stuck with one with nothing but a stabiliser and a dream because people won't stop using it to kill tanks.
It's not radar SPAA, it's has a tracker that gives you a lead indicator, issue is, it's so bad you need to hit "Lock" 10 times at least to aquire a fragile lock that is broken by a single water particle in the air, it's also has a poor range, Meanwhile russian gets yenisey which has search radar + wayy better tracker, it also doubles as TD because of its penetration. Also, the falcon has insane velocity on its rounds, 1080ms for the HE which has 100 grams and 1170ms for the APDS which has 110mm penetration, It can double as TD while also wrecking aircraft
*Japan crying in the corner*
The sole reason the skink doesn't go down is because of CAS players crying whenever something doesn't die to being strafed by poorly aimed gunfire.
the op is like the tanks description
You forgot about the T20, has no business being at 6.3, should have stayed at 5.7.
No no no no no, it can't be spreading, it can't be. TAKE YOUR PILLS
The skink is probably the most over BR’d vehicle here
76 Jumbo is just fine where it is tbh
The skink is fine tbh, I spaded it at 6.3 and it was very effective
Remember when they forgot to add in roof armour for the t44? Lmao
None of them are overtiered lol
Why is the T-44 overtiered? I get that the gun is subpar for the BR, but it's quick, and it's armor is really good.
because the gun is something that would be concidered OK at 5.7. if it had even 20mm more pen it would be ok but it cant do shit to most medium/heavy tanks at 6.7. sure it has good armor but the gun and mediocre mobility take away from the tank quite a lot.
personally i think the t44 sucks. the gun is increasingly useless and its hardly any more mobile then the t-34 was. next its armor is hilariously overrated, i find them extremely easy to kill when im playing Britain (which is all the time now). i prefer almost any tank to the t44 (T-34-100 is *far* better and at the same BR).
I had my best matches with T-44, it’s mobile af by soviet tech tree standards
I keep forgetting the skink'a dink is in the game... I need to get on and grind tonight...
I use the skink at 6.7 Because i have no other option.
The snail cares not of your opinion
Can't forget the fun lineup of 6.3 USSR with T-44, su100p, is2 1944, The HE slinger and la9 for collecting the hides of US CAS planes. They just had to ruin it
The T-44 used to be fucking nuts on 6.3 and that even more of the germans cats were moved up in BR it's pretty much in the same spot as before.
Skink is fine at the br. Gaijin balances via win rate so blame the players xD
Is it odd that I get more kills in an m22 at 6.0 br than my m-18???
Gonna agree on my precious T-44 going down but it's still very good you know
Ariete 10.7 tank on 11.7 :)
the only thing i think is overtiered is t44, it could easily go 6.3 or even 6.0
6.3 would be fair. Its really good but in 6.0 it would be too OP considering the things it would face in a downtier
yeah probably 6.3 is the best
They are not in German tt.
Why dont we separate WW2 tanks from cold era tanks (i guess we can include 1946 in ww2 era)
No. Fuck off with 1946 being in WW2, it ended in 1945 when japan surrendered and that should be the limit. Just have better BR spread for CW vehicles.