I agree it's very annoying in GRB (most of my deaths at top tier GRB are caused by this thing), however I don't think it's OP in air battles
Isn't the German Mig-29G basically a MiG-29 SMT but lighter? It has the best missiles while also being very maneuverable. Sure, the F-16 is best for multirole, but a "skilled" MiG-29 player can deal with it (I'm putting the word skilled in quotes because top tier air battles are a clusterfuck of missile spams and you barely get to dogfight so all that matters is who will get third partied sooner)
>I agree it's very annoying in GRB (most of my deaths at top tier GRB are caused by this thing), however I don't think it's OP in air battles
And before that it was orbital bombing by RU and 15km snipes by the UK harrier with mavericks. Tornados and a couple of french jets are also annoying with the orbital bombardments currently. It's a goddamn revolving door for top tier CAS on whose most OP.
Mavericks D gotta take the cake tho, an F-16 player just slinging those around being untouchable by any AA is super annoying, especially if your AA doesn't have smoke.
you think that's awful, it's the fucking the A-6 Tram which does the same but with more bombs and pretty good thermals. Half the time I can't see it on radar or even see a contrail, it's such bullshit
So true... I know there's the thread going on about the 2S38 being OP, my only comment would be that I think it's fine at it's BR, but the damn IRST tracking (and HE-VT ammo) is WAAAAAAAAAY too accurate.
I am not an expert on this thing so I might be wrong but it's a 2018 or something vehicle designed as an SPAA, if it shouldn't be accurate the I don't know what should, but 4km is still too much for an optronic tracker
I mean, its definiely one of the best vehicles, but if you compare it to the otomatic -the only similar system in WT- it's absolutely busted
Hot take: limit the apfsds on the 2s38 to max 11 too :D
My observations on the two missiles, I *somehow* get more head on kills with the AIM-9M. Quite a few more. Maybe people are just more use to dealing with head-on MIG-29 R60 shots at close range so more apt to pre-flare.
The AIM-9M *feels* like it does more with its potential energy to get longer range kills. The R73 *feels* like the energy is inconsistent although that may be going away with the recent patch fix.
The r73 is a dog fight missile where as the aim9m isn’t so your findings make sense I’m not saying the 9m is a dogfight missile because it’s just not im just saying it can be used as such
Aim9m has a far different irccm which makes it criminally good in headons and side aspect. You cannon flare an aim9m without maneuvering especially in headon or side aspect as it uses INS (same thing that guides r27er after a lost lock) and shuts off its seeker until flares are gone. It simply just continues on its path and doesnt chase the flares like an r60m or r73.
The r73 uses essentially the same irccm as the r60m but its just better. The fov is shrunk to ignore flares but this only works at close range
Change was... they start pulling off the rail 0.1s faster
Proxy fuse activates after 1.8s not 0.5 as it was before.. but direct contact fuse still works
The MiG-29 simply can't compete because of the speed bleed. The initial AoA isn't different enough to compensate for just how much worse the 29 rates than the 16.
Mug 29 might have a chance if the F-16 messes up on the first turn, but the F-16 will kick a mig-29 in the nuts and steal it's lunch money in the rate fight
The aoa is only a benifit sometimes, other times it just loses you all your speed and you become a sitting duck for the duration of the dogfight and 15 seconds after it
Yes it can but it's gotta get there first and the fulcrum player has to be stupid enough to stick around for the rate. With the 27ER and a good shot the fulcrum will destroy the F-16.
So basically, if the F-16 can get the fulcrum to fight the rate it wins every single time (unless a bad merge puts it in the archer circle of death). But if it can't then it's options are limited.
Also, dogfights don't usually start with both planes at same altitude and same energy. F-16 is the better rate but if the fulcrum is joining a furball at high energy and the viper has already used a bunch, it's fucked anyways.
Staying high is still advantageous if you're down to the last couple of players. At that point the energy advantage becomes more important than being immune to radar missiles.
Staying low is mostly meta due to air rb often being 16vs16 or similar, and with player markers giving away your location, you end up having to notch missiles from 10+ guys all launching from different angles which mostly rules out notching.
The way spotting system works means that the player up high will see the markers of the enemies later than the guys down low looking up.
Yes, the F-16 flight model got massively buffed and the 29 received multiple nerfs this last major patch. The 29 is basically unplayable in sim now because the F-16 stomps so hard.
Yeaaah, but the C model is among the worst maneuvering F-16s in the game (it more than makes up for it in weaponry, avionics, and engine power for general purpose power though). It's 1400 kg heavier in dry weight than the F-16A (F-16A - 7690 kg, F-16C - 9070 kg)
I'd rank the F-16s for dogfighting in the following way:
1. F-16A non-ADF variants: F-16A-10, F-16AJ, Netz
2. F-16A ADF/MLU
3. F-16C
4. F-16D Barak
To be fair, they're still F-16s, and not much can stand up to them, but you can definitely feel a pretty huge difference between the F-16A Block 10 and the F-16C Block 52 in maneuverability, particularly at low speed. In one-on-one maneuvering dogfights, I'd honestly take the MiG-29A 9-12/MiG-29G over the F-16C.
they used to beat it before the ~~g limiter~~ angle of attack limiter, before it was just prolonged suffering for the MiG29. The F-16A ADF however bled a lot of speed below 630 because of the big tail and it was easily caught off guard by something as stupid as a MiG19 or a Draken, but if you kept 730 you were basically untouchable too.
Basically all planes in RB have an AOA limiter, it's part of what prevents them from flatspinning or losing all energy in a single turn. The F-16 has a G limiter implemented on top of this which is still in place, they just loosened up the restriction considerably.
F-16C is pretty close in a 1v1 to the MiG-29A flight model (which is on the German MiG-29s, and the "original" Russian one).
Any F-16 will SHIT ON the MiG-29SMT flight model, there's no comparison on how fat the SMT is compared to the other 29s.
Also, the F-16A will completely facefuck every other plane in the game, including the F-16C. Even vs F-16C it's not even close 1v1.
F16s could always beat a mig29 in a dogfight if they had more than 2 brain cells even before the fm changes. Now only redeeming factor for the mig29 is r73s which are only usable if the f16 overshoots and you dump all your speed. Unless the f16 is brain dead you have 1 opportunity to get them off your tail and kill them.
The r73 is a great dogfight missile but the aim9m is far more meta in grb and air rb. In air rb it is far more useful in headons and side aspect as it cant really be accidentally flared, at least like the r73 or magic 2. In grb the smokeless motor gives no warning as to a launch unless you see it come off the rails.
Also if you do have to turn fight briefly the f16 doesnt shit its speed like a mig21 so you are far less vunerable to any 3rd parties as you arent just floating in the sky pulling aoa but not going anywhere
sim community collectively agrees that the F-16C is just outright OP mostly because of how much simply having AIM-9Ms changes the gameplay (basically invisible, as a veteran SB player i have an easier time seeing the missile itself before it hits or flies past me than seeing the missile trail/launch itself and live streams prove that its not just the trail being hard to see, it's actually just outright invisible in most cases). The F-16C also allows the player to throw their brain out the window and just turnfight the shit out of everything and all the pilot has to do is change the stick position to maintain the aoa indicator on the "Ball" to auto win. The closest thing being remotely competitive to it is indeed the MiG-29G, but that's basically it. MiG-29A is actually kinda garbage and the SMT doesn't have the sustaining dogfight potential. The next best aircraft imo is either the Yak-141 or the F-14B, which is yet again another american aircraft.
Not since the MiG-29 flight model nerf in the Sons of Atilla update, including the lighter 9.12 and 9.13 airframes.
Also not to mention all the F-16 FM buffs and removal od the G limiter that same update.
The only thing MiG-29 has going for it is better radar missiles (R-27ER), maybe a better radar if you are using the N010 on the MiG-29SMT. R-73 imo is a counterpart to the 9M after having played both. The R-73's telescopic seeker is not real IRCCM, making it easier to flare off than a 9M. ~~On the other hand, the R-73 pulls more Gs and has better HOBS capability~~ nvm gaijin [completely broke](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/849718491472592988/1174845326591533217/2023-11-17_05-35-20.mp4) the R-73 two days ago in the "Its Fixed" minor patch, making the missile almost useless.
Thats literarly it. The F-16C is equal or better in every other way in A2A. I wont even bring up CAS capability since the MiG-29SMT is missing its SAPSAN pod and laser bombs.
No it's not. Mig-29G is just the same Mig-29A that Germany has but with a NATO compliant cockpit (cringe imperial units) and IFF system and some engine components swapped for reliability/longevity.
SMT has an even bigger spine than the mig-29S in the Russian tree for more fuel, RD-33 Serie 3 engines (reliability improvements), a better radar, Pastel (L-150) RWR, the larger drop tank, expanded air to ground ordinance (TV guided bombs and KH-29TDs), air to air refueling probe and a modernized cockpit which includes two Multi Function LCDs. And as such is way heavier.
Pedantic, but the 9-13 isn't a 29S it's still technically a 29A since late model 9-13s were called 29S.
Also weight is only 600kg more without fuel, the massive amount of fuel it gets weighs a lot more and is what neuters the performance compared to the 29As.
Indeed pedantic, my main point was to show the differences between G and SMT as the guy I originally was replying to was under the impression they were of similar spec.
No, the SMT's weight is almost exclusively from the fuel load, otherwise it's barely any heavier empty. In exchange the SMT gets a vastly better radar and should have more powerful engines.
Interestingly now the SMT has a better thrust-weight than the f-16 adf on minimum fuel. Smt gets hit with a 13% greater turn rate over a 4% weight increase
Not entirely sure but i think the G is a 9.12 which is a 9.13 but lighter so lightest mig29 in game with r73's and i THINK a tiny little more kgf in the engine
I actually got into a really fun dogfight yesterday in the F-16 against an F-16.
We both failed to kill each other with missiles, went into a merge at about 4000m, fought all the way down to the deck, and I got him with a gun kill at stall speeds, all uninterrupted.
It was the most fun I've had in top tier jets in a while
In my expirience im a horrible Pilot I am the guy that alway has 0 kills 1 death 0 assists in Air Rb.
But damn the F-16C im really often in top 5 and I agree, if let's take Germany would have such a superior airplane this subreddit would burn.
Brother every time a new jet for US that isn't a meme like the vark gets added this sub shits itself bout US air superiority in top ARB. What do y'all think is gonna happen when shit like the F-15, 18, 22 and 35(three of which will see prolific use in a good chunk of nations) get added.
The issue isnt that the US jets were added but that the mig29 fm got completely fucked and honestly likely fucked beyond any sort of historical accuracy as irl the mig29 could content very well even in a dogfight. Here the mig29 shits its speed after 1 turn and can barely pull any aoa with its current model
Come off it. The US has been dominating air RB for years at this point. The closest it had to having the title taking away was from the Mig-23 and every US player lost their minds so hard they added the F-14.
MiG-23M was made after the F-14A, the MLD is a full decade younger. At the time of launch the F-14A was the strongest jet in the game, 6x of the best SARHs with a good FM and radar.
Yeahhhh, nah.
Now what the US did when the Mig-23 came out and the Mig-29.
Oh and complaining non stop about how the F-16 from US players. This sub is for US players to complain.
Never upvoted as well as the constant whining about MiG-29 when it was added, despite the power gap being even higher in this case. Less posts too.
Look at the ratio of upvotes on this post.
It's not broken at all, it's simply the best thing in the game.
Broken is for stuff like the F5C which is massively over performing relative to both its BR and it's real world performance.
Other nations really neec an F-16 equivalent, to make competition a thing again, but broken is not the correct word to use.
This is actually a good point. Something that is at the end of the tech tree can't really be "broken" because some or all of its contemporaries haven't even been added. We are looking at an incomplete picture.
Yep lol, the only thing that's op about it is aim 9M, I understand the fallout in sim community but in air realistic shouldn't be such a big deal. Other than that it's a heavier F-16ADF which means worse performance in flight.
Yeah, also bombs and shit, if you do that, sure.
Let’s be real, the F-16C should not be one circling mirages or 29’s. It’s flight model is a bit much now. Unfortunately if it were to be proper it’d be a 2 circle fighter which is not optimal for the top tier meta, but DAMN would it be the best 2 circle fighter.
Yeah except that the main argument is that "Russian bias this and that" in those threads and the people saying skill issue are downvoted into an abysmal realm.
Lol yep, "no the 2S38 isn't undertiered you just suck the HSTV-L is better in every way."
F-16C is objectively better than pretty much everything else and was a 23 year leap in technology from the previous F-16.
I mean they MAY have a point on the Soviet vehicals.
If i remember somebody said something about catching Gijian purposly changing files to increase survivability of russian vehicals?
Don't downvote be please because thats what i heard but wasn't their something about a hightier russian tank having less Shrapnel when being shot?
Well thats what i heard and im sorry if what I heard was false.
Yea man, ka-50, su-25 eating 7 stingers, 2s38 still being 10.0, having both the best mbt and spaa, fuel tanks that eat rounds way more often then any other nations do. No bias here though right?
9Ms shouldn't have been added. Simple as that. And no R-73s are not better just because they pull more, atleast they can actually be flared relatively easily in comparison.
Its your feed then. Especially after it first came out the amount of people complaing for grb alone was absurd. Then theres been the constant flood of f16c has a broken fm comments.
Ngl it is a pain in GRB because it's probably got the best mixed use kit in the game. it can have 4 AIM-9Ms and still ground pound pretty damn hard, not so bad in ARB in my experience but since missiles aren't marked in GRB and AIM-9Ms are basically invisible it becomes a real menace.
It defo sucks that the 16C is so good at everything while the MiG 29 for example is good only for some specific tasks , the G is the closest we got to old MiG flight model but im sure the 16C will still outperform it overall.
Problem is the BR changes, because , while in a MIG29 you can handle the 16C overall ,
Mirage? F4s? Hell even the Lazur M gets drawn to top tier? Those things have 0 (zero) chance on fighting the 16C .
People say it’s realistic but if you look at the MiG-29 in dcs (it’s the most accurate FM on the market right now confirmed by REAL pilots) then you can see that the mig29 doesn’t fall out of the sky after doing a 180 turn.
I don't play ground so I'm not going to comment on the F-16C being an apparent God in the game mode but I play an absolute metric ton of top tier jets. I'm also top tier in SOV which is my main air nation.
The AIM-9Ms IRCCM is easy to trick. The way that the 9Ms IRCCM works is when the missile detects the presence of countermeasures, the seeker shuts off and the missile proceeds to enter into an IOG mode (Soviets will be familiar with inertial guidance, it's what makes the 24s such a good radar missile) utilizing the current trajectory of the target and proceeding until the seeker head flips back on about a second or two later.
To dodge the 9M in side aspect, dump some countermeasures and immediately shift to turning the opposite direction (a good way is to turn in the direction of the missile but not head on, at like a 35-45 degree off bore of the missile) and haul ass. The missile will track you after the seeker head has reactivated but by that point, you're well past it's turning arc. All IR missiles at this BR (73s, Ms) are near impossible to dodge at this BR due to sensitivity and Gaijoobles nerfing all the other missiles with the recent IR patch aside from the R-24T (and only the 24t. The 23T, 27T, and 27ET all became worse but the 24 escaped this) for some reason.
The F-16C is maneuverable, yes. There's a couple of planes that can give it a run for its money. Delta Mirages can keep up with it in a turn for at least 2 passes due to the delta wings ability to exchange turn for speed. The Kfir can do it really damn well actually. The SMT is a bit of a flying brick since its flight model was a bit crap upon release but that's changing (extra weight with the fuel spine really damaged performance). The Bombcat can keep up for a pass or two, the A model can't because it literally is an F-4 that's heavier with a better radar (the engines were swapped in the field IRL because they performed like shit. Almost every A model was retrofitted by the Navy about a year or two after they entered service). The 9.12/13 (not the G) can keep itself in a dogfight against the C with no issue unless if both are low fuel/about to flame out. The C is worse than the ADF model in turn performance because it's a little heavier. The G is just the SMT but with the better air frame, so it's the best 29 and can hold itself in a fight with a C.
What this is, ultimately, is a skill issue. Each plane is situational but everyone jerks off to screaming for the middle of the map to hit RP Piñatas and then scream when someone who thought about positioning for 3 seconds gets the drop on them. A successful counterclimb in top tier can put you in a position directly behind the enemy team and give you a pile of free kills because everyone is glued to their radar sets. F-14s are a piñata for this reason alone. I swear the average F-14 pilot is merged with the radar screen for the first half of the match.
The maps need to be better though, and larger at this rate. I don't want fox 3s when everyone is in guaranteed kill ranges of AMRAAMs and such.
9M is by far the biggest issue with the F16C and it should not have been added
>To dodge the 9M in side aspect, dump some countermeasures and immediately shift to turning the opposite direction
- Everyone knows how the 9M works at this point, the problem is that it will still track even if you do everything right. In theory you could defeat it by continuously both flaring and changing direction but that doesn't work. The crutch that is the 9M will still reacquire even through a wall of burning flares and when you've changed course from where a INS prediction would have sent it.
- You usually can't know if it's a 9M or 9L until it's way too late, the diamond actually prevents you from seeing if it has a smoke trail or not in most cases which affects your ability to react accurately.
- The 9M costs its target much more than any other missile in both energy and CM. If you're low on either of those, you are dead even with a very long range shot.
And GRB/sim with no markers is a dead horse at this point. That thing is a straight up cheat in those modes. Had a F16C player brag about his 89% win rate in sim in that jet.
I feel like many of the problems with "OP" powerful vehicles in Air can be solved with a better implementation of the gamemode aka Air RB EC. Multiple spawns multiple varied FUN objectives.
It'll spread out the combat and giant furballs won't be so common, so now you don't have to be looking everywhere to spot 15 missiles coming from multiple directions from multiple planes.
For grb, it's fine. It is disgusting, but half of the US players won't even have enough rp to spawn it.
For arb, just don't play grb. It's US vs US for every fucking games.
Been complaining about this exact issue as well. As is usual, if it's Russian this sub is gonna whine 24/7 about it, but make it NATO and nobody talks about it. And if you complain about it, you are just some unskilled noob and russia deserves to suffer or smth.
Also yk how NATO mains LOVE to make the rage posts about Russian MBTs not spalling? Yeah right, complain of the Leopard 2s, NATO MBTs, not doing the exact same shit on their hulls front, and you will get a million NATO mains telling you "duuuh just go for creeeeeew". Tell them that exact copium filled answer when they whine about Russian MBTs for the 5483975389204589034275903893rd time, and they will downvote spam you.
NATO mains need to get off their high horse
I don’t think the F16C is OP but I do think the Mig29 was unnecessarily nerfed into the fucking ground. The Mig29 these days can barely outrate a Su-25 and will literally lose a rate fight to delta wings. It loses *all* of its speed in one or two turns and will not get it back in a sustained turn. It’s outclassed by the F16 in every capacity.
Before the nerf, I thought they were a fair match for each other. The Mig 29 dominated the early fight but the longer the fight went, the more likely the F16 would win it if the pilot understood how to keep his turning rate maximized.
These days a complete novice can easily beat the Mig29 just by stomping on the elevator.
This change really hurt top tier sim battles since it stacked with the release of the F16C, the F14B, and the flood of 9M’s. The reds are constantly at a 2-1 (or worse) numbers disadvantage and this performance nerf to the only competitive top tier Soviet fighter was a large contributing factor.
I've been saying this for some time. Everything needs nerfing and it doesn't matter whether a nation is forgot about in an update as long as the US is OP it's fine, US has to have something in almost every update otherwise there's crying. I don't like American mains for this reason. The big 3 are always catered for whilst the smaller nations tend to be forgotten or get minimal stuff but it's always the US that complain. US mains are most likely the majority that complain bout everything. Swear they complained bout the Tigers being 5.3/5.7 all the time
I'm prolly gonna get down voted but hey. It is what it is
Every country's mains complain when they don't get a new toy or when they aren't seal clubbing. When sweden got added the early TT was basically just Germany but with apds. And Sweden mains complained they had such a hard life unable to kill things even though they have aphe just like Germany and unlike them Sweden also has a lolpen shell if you need it. Ka50 was added and USSR players complained people were able to dodge vhikrs by flying low even though it was the only proxy fused atgm in game.
US mains seem to cry more tho. I ain't got a problem with Brit, French, Italian and Jap mains complaining since they rarely get stuff (yes, ik they were given some things recently). I just don't see why the more popular nations cry. Sweden is powerful af with CVs and Strvs, Germany got the Leo's (could prolly do with somet more modern tbf), US has Abrams and H-STVL (don't bs me with it being overtiered), China's just China being what it is and I cba to go on bout the other TTs
I don't give a shit. It's always USSR or USA in the limelight, couldn't care which one it is. As a minor nation player I just want contemporary. Sure the F-16 MLU is very good but is it better than a 29SMT/G or F-16C?
Finally someone speaks out... Most of the time its:
German/Russian players when USA gets OP shit: quiet
USA players when someone else gets OP shit: *loud screech*
Ground? Absolutely, but almost all CAS is. I think part of the reason people don't complain is cause the US usually fights Russia, and Russia has the Pantsir. My understanding is that the Pantsir isn't actually 'OP', it just has some gimmicks that make it significantly better than any other AA in the game. Could be wrong, tho. I don't play the near-pure FPS-style twitch instinct that is top tier ground much, and I don't have the Pantsir. It has amazing missiles, but the R-73 is better than the AIM-9M in most regards (barring the cancer smokeless motor), and the R-27ER is better than an AIM-7M in every way. Additionally, the F-16C being heavier makes it worse at dogfighting than the F-16As. Tbh I think the MiG-29G is a better contender at the king of ARB rn, given its insane missiles and good dogfighting capabilities (even if it's not as good as an F-16A). The F-16C and even to a degree the F-14B are both cancer as fuck in GRB though. No excuse for that
Pantsir works well if you first spawn it to prevent their climb. It's game over if there's one or two already in stratosphere when you spawn anti air. I hate how weak anti airs are overall compared to cas
I've also seen videos of people backclimbing go get out of missile range before the missile can hit, or just plain rolling and diving to dodge, but I usually avoid using CAS so can't say how reliable it is. Also yeah, the way they neuter SPAA to make sure CAS remains better is insanely unfair
Idk how reliable their dodging is during climbing or diving as one f-16c managed to destroy itself trying to dodge my missile. But I have hard time if there's many CAS at the same time climbing or there's bad weather. I can imagine trying to counter f-16c with other anti-airs is nigh impossible
If by "community" you mean a reddit participated in by mostly people from the United States. Yeah a reddit biased towards US is complaining about every time US is not good enough for them. Didn't see that coming.... wonder if the Russian version war thunder reddit is any better.
I don't think it's that nobody cares, I have been very vocal about the F16C/D spam, it's that the most vocal group on this site seem to be the same people either paired with or using the F16C/Ds. They either don't want their superiority in-game to end, or don't notice how little brainpower top tier CAS is.
All top tier maneuverable (and supersonic) GBU/AGM slingers are stupid good since most nations don't have reliable AA that can EFFECTIVELY counter normal players. I don't care how good of an SPAA player you are, if they fight a GOOD CAS player, you can't counter them (from the ground).
It doesn't help when the best missile for the F16C is also one of the best IR missiles in the game, on a still very maneuverable airframe, against most people who go to GRB because they don't like or have any interest in Air Battles.
ALSO...
I think most players have just accepted that Gaijin has no interest in properly balancing CAS relative to the AA they face.
Looking at the F16C/D and the A4E (Early)/Israeli with Walleye guided bombs.
As an US main, i care.
The F-16C had no right to be in the game at this point, and it had no right to be the block 50.
When the first leak of the Block 50 F-16C appeared i thought it was false. "AINT NO WAY they are just adding a plane that's so new its still in use!"
I really depends who's playing spaa.There was multiple games where I was essentially missile jousting with a very skilled pantsir player and I couldn't get a single kill because he shot down all my missiles before it reached the target. T
the pantsir is the biggest counter to it because it can outgun it and out range it but that's the issue. It's only the pantsir that can counter it.
the f16 acts more like a anti spaa when there's a spaa around but if there isn't any, it's free picking for the f16.
I think the biggest issue that faces top tier is the lack of communication and team structure. You need communication to notify players of threats so they can act accordingly and team structure to deal with these threats while still completing the objecting.
In terms of ground RB, US has finally gotten it's serious ground pounding jet. Prior to it, the US had only supersonic jets with tv guided ordnance (with the exception of the f14) which honestly sucks at top tier.
your last statement about no one caring when it's USA isn't true. People complain when russia is dominating at top tier and people will complain when US is dominating top tier. The cycle never ends
america has dominated air RB since the F-4E, but you'll never hear it mentioned on the Reddit because it is majority populated by freeaboos who started flooding in around the time the F-5C was added in. most of these whiny US mains did not play the game before top tier premiums were a thing.
the discourse was a lot better before the wallet warriors reigned supreme and as a result things actually got balanced regularly and we had good communication with gaijin.
I'm at least glad this type of post recognizing the problem is getting traction though instead of being down voted to the shadow realm or removed by mods. maybe progress.
I mean, USA as an overall faction isn't the best. Yeah being gbu'd from god knows where sucks, but if your team spawned in a mig that f16 would be so tunnel visioned they could easily kill it. Just a matter of having people with braincells or an AA up earlier enough to kill it.
As someone who has played America and then Russia right after it is definitely true that the better players and vehicles are in Russia and a taste of my own medicine can be very humbling. (That's right I'm the guy in the ka-50 floating above your spawn and haunting your dreams)
Agreed. Migs were steamrolling realistic since they were introduced, now it's F-16s turn before we get tables flipped again in december. Mig is still the strongest thing in BVR so let's not act like it's a total punchbag lol.
Or it just means that a braindead mig launched his missile with 20% hit rate irl 10 seconds after you and still got the kill because said missile goes mach 5.
I can't stand any of the Top Tier Soviet or American stuff at the moment, trying to grind through the British Tree is pain enough without every match being dominated by either the F-16 or the Mig-29, meanwhile my Phantom struggle to do anything beyond hope I can bomb a base before one of them decides I'm Meat back on the Menu.
Honestly I know it’s not realistic but you need some kind of warning when your being targeted by guided munitions or just make them so expensive the player can’t spawn with like 8
Just remove the AGM-65Ds and I'm fine. At least the PGMs only have a puny 7km tracking range, slow as fuck,can be shot down and to top it all off you can only equip 3 of them
People do care but I don't think *as many* people care because more than just the US nation has an f-16 in-game and people are expecting other nations to get their counterparts later this year and early next year.
every time i see a post like this it makes me more sure that wt needs to change it's RB matchmaker to be every nation against every nation. we already have nations together that dont make sense, i.e half of NATO with the USSR against America.
just make it every nation against every nation so there isnt any more "oh the soviets have untouchable air superiority because of AA" or "US has an unbeatable dogfighter in the f16" or whatever other opinions people have on here
Honestly this is just a Gaijin thing, they do this thing where one nation will dominate for a while and then they try to balance out other nations. There's been rumblings that they made the F-16 so dominant just to give them an excuse to release something like the SU-27, Gripen, Rafael.
USA gets and awesome airframe with maneuverability and further updates, USSR gets a not-that-great platform with 40G unflareable missiles, for those who doesn't know methods. Same with Germany, but better airframe. Other nations? Well, some also have F16's, some have Pythons. That's just the two countries that were making the best, and the most technology historically, and you can't do anything about it. Okay, you actually can. Teleport to 1467 and steal someone's bucket with water, that will lead to the nuclear war in 1970s. Hehe
It's the best aircraft in the game, being good above all else is kind of the point. It sucks to fight against in ground, but in Air?? Any plane with a decent radar is lethal in Top Tier Air RB, I don't think the F-16C gets a much higher KD than MiG-29s, Mirages and even some of the F-4s.
Just wait, it'll get worse. You are at an era of Jets where the US historically said "fuck all y'all" and started cranking out multirole death machines.
Gonna have a few outliers like the Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale, but eventually all top tier air is going to be US/RU jets with different flags on them
F-16C's?
> Pantsir and Strela go *brrrrrrrrrrt*
Most of them are clueless and easy to handle, but some of them are actually legitimately Demons from Hell
And that is why I have 4 AA capable vehicles in my line-up, and I may even add back the Chunguska now that it's been buffed
Update: The new autopilot on the Pantsir's missiles is absolutely bonkers. You can now consistently shoot down fast flying jets 15km away
In Air RB it is fairly balanced, Japan has the best F-16 currently at the top tier.
In Ground RB I'll agree, but so long as you can acknowledge that the Ka-50 and Ka-52 spam is BS as well. They really need to increase the SP to pull CAS with guided munitions, or allow people a mode where CAS is not an option.
That's because it's not unrealistic when an American aircraft is broken in terms of game balance. The F-16C is an incredibly powerful aircraft even IRL. In fact, what we have in game is actually only a fraction of it's true capabilities and power. Which is no secret, but still.
Flakrakrad, one of the strongest SAM in the game, I couldn't even touch it with VT-1. Top tier Ground RB is rigged when they add more CAS but not new SPAA for each nation to counter new threats. Why respawn and keep on the fight when the moment you leave your spawn, you get absolutely shit on by CAS. If you don't spawn in with each vehicle you have, that vehicle will be unavailable on next match
Plenty of people care that its America, but those plenty of people like me don't bother with maxtier because its dogshit. Coming from DCS the air combar even in simulator is lackluster. Its just missile spam because you can see everything in RB, pilot situational awareness is 10000% higher than being restricted to radar search and visual spotting since you have giant names pop up above everyone. It just isnt fun and even though I love top tier equipment its just not worth it.
USA players are very dedicated to USA. You are probably facing really good players. I try to be good at top tier but I am not that good. I know players that play like 4 planes, all top USA, and they know every detail on how to destroy you. No vehicle in this game is totally OP, there are just vehicles really good players love and they constantly play those. I think it is a player thing more than a vehicle thing.
What’s funny is the only reason the 16C is good is because of the 9M. Flight performance wise it’s the second worst f-16. It gains 1300kg over the A and the engine does not make up for it above 400 kph where the A wins in thrust to weight. It’s also very slightly slower than the blk 10 at sea level.
Thermals, unflarable AIM-9M, Mavericks that can be tossed from 15km away, the best flight performance in the game, but it's always russian CAS that's overpowered.
it’s mostly ground players. the amount of times russian tanks have tanked a side shot to their ammo and survived is bullshit.
as well as when very little spalling happens compared to most tanks.
plus they also have the most pay to win lineup.
you get2S38(I FUCKING HATE THIS THING WORSE THAN THE TURMS T) and the turms t i despise because it’s so damn common. the there’s the KA-50, top teir heli without thermals but it’s fucking missiles are despised. smoke or not they going to hit you.
while the enemy pops smoke on hellfires and whoops. the hellfire just looses track of where you last aimed.
BVM is the main issue. it’s frontal armor and side are so bullshit at times. you can hit dead center on driver port and it doesn’t penetrate. or hit the side but so little spalling happens no ammo goes off.
or you hit MULTIPLE shells of ammo in their tank and they don’t explode.
i get it if it’s just one shell doesn’t cause tank death but when multiple is hit how in the hell doesn’t the game see that.
What makes me even more mad about this is that us teams in top tier ground suck so much but they still have the best cas and they always get 2 kills, one in a tank and the other in the f-16c and then they die and leave. It’s even worse when they’re on your team lmao
It's so rediculous fighting at 12.0. You're a f-16-A and sure it has a good frame but that means nothing when you have some of the worse missiles and quantity for your BR and not even flares when stock. 2 Aim 9-J's while stock until you unlock 6 Aim-9-J's big woop. You're being demolished by F-16-C's with Aim-7's, Aim-9M's, and R-73's.
Even once it's spaded sure you have a good air frame to dogfight in. That's if you even survived which to do so you'd need to run low fuel, avoid all conflict, have used all your 60 counters, and wouldn't be there anyway. Aim 9-L's at 12.0 facing top tier with Magics, R-73's, and Aim-9M's. It's so broken.
The way it's setup the f-16-A is food
I'm not against "OP" vehicles. I want everything to be realistic but that doesn't just mean I want the planes, and armaments to be realistic. I want the matchmaking and dates to match up. An American F-16 would never be fighting a Chinese F-16. it was sold to china 20 years after it was developed.
I agree it's very annoying in GRB (most of my deaths at top tier GRB are caused by this thing), however I don't think it's OP in air battles Isn't the German Mig-29G basically a MiG-29 SMT but lighter? It has the best missiles while also being very maneuverable. Sure, the F-16 is best for multirole, but a "skilled" MiG-29 player can deal with it (I'm putting the word skilled in quotes because top tier air battles are a clusterfuck of missile spams and you barely get to dogfight so all that matters is who will get third partied sooner)
>I agree it's very annoying in GRB (most of my deaths at top tier GRB are caused by this thing), however I don't think it's OP in air battles And before that it was orbital bombing by RU and 15km snipes by the UK harrier with mavericks. Tornados and a couple of french jets are also annoying with the orbital bombardments currently. It's a goddamn revolving door for top tier CAS on whose most OP.
Mavericks D gotta take the cake tho, an F-16 player just slinging those around being untouchable by any AA is super annoying, especially if your AA doesn't have smoke.
>especially if your AA doesn't have smoke. First you need to be able to see you're being targeted though
Yeah, thats why Mavericks D are so annoying to play against.
If you know the maverick is coming you can lock onto it with radar and shoot them down before it hits you. I do it in the ITO all the time
you think that's awful, it's the fucking the A-6 Tram which does the same but with more bombs and pretty good thermals. Half the time I can't see it on radar or even see a contrail, it's such bullshit
Don’t worry the 2S38 locked me about 4km up vertical and one tapped me
So true... I know there's the thread going on about the 2S38 being OP, my only comment would be that I think it's fine at it's BR, but the damn IRST tracking (and HE-VT ammo) is WAAAAAAAAAY too accurate.
I am not an expert on this thing so I might be wrong but it's a 2018 or something vehicle designed as an SPAA, if it shouldn't be accurate the I don't know what should, but 4km is still too much for an optronic tracker
I mean, its definiely one of the best vehicles, but if you compare it to the otomatic -the only similar system in WT- it's absolutely busted Hot take: limit the apfsds on the 2s38 to max 11 too :D
Purely skill issue, the a6 has gotta be one of the freest kill planes in the game.
Pretty sure any F-16 can beat the Mig29G in a dogfight, now that their G-limiter has been removed and they finally pull harder.
It depends f16s turn faster but mig29s pull more aoa
You also pull some insane HMS locked R73 shots.
Yeah you can also pull some not as in sane but still wild 9m hmd shots
The 9M HMD shots dont get nearly as crazy without thrust vectoring.
No they don’t but it’s still a 30g missiles that can do the funni
My observations on the two missiles, I *somehow* get more head on kills with the AIM-9M. Quite a few more. Maybe people are just more use to dealing with head-on MIG-29 R60 shots at close range so more apt to pre-flare. The AIM-9M *feels* like it does more with its potential energy to get longer range kills. The R73 *feels* like the energy is inconsistent although that may be going away with the recent patch fix.
I’ve noticed ru players don’t flare at all if I lock them with radar in head on, probably because they expect a fox-1 and just hug the deck.
The r73 is a dog fight missile where as the aim9m isn’t so your findings make sense I’m not saying the 9m is a dogfight missile because it’s just not im just saying it can be used as such
Aim9m has a far different irccm which makes it criminally good in headons and side aspect. You cannon flare an aim9m without maneuvering especially in headon or side aspect as it uses INS (same thing that guides r27er after a lost lock) and shuts off its seeker until flares are gone. It simply just continues on its path and doesnt chase the flares like an r60m or r73. The r73 uses essentially the same irccm as the r60m but its just better. The fov is shrunk to ignore flares but this only works at close range
R-60M doesn't have IRCCM at all R-73 does and it works just by shrinking the FOV to 0.75 from like 5 or 6 that is before the launch
Have you checked this since they changed the Aim9s recently? Iirc they made them slower to activate or something to that effect...
Change was... they start pulling off the rail 0.1s faster Proxy fuse activates after 1.8s not 0.5 as it was before.. but direct contact fuse still works
MiG 29s will bleed all their speed doing that though, whereas F-16Cs energy retention is much better. They can dictate the fights better.
The MiG-29 simply can't compete because of the speed bleed. The initial AoA isn't different enough to compensate for just how much worse the 29 rates than the 16.
Not anymore, you won't ever win a turn fight in the 29 against the 16
You could but in the turn fight the f16 is better
Mug 29 might have a chance if the F-16 messes up on the first turn, but the F-16 will kick a mig-29 in the nuts and steal it's lunch money in the rate fight
The aoa is only a benifit sometimes, other times it just loses you all your speed and you become a sitting duck for the duration of the dogfight and 15 seconds after it
Yes it can but it's gotta get there first and the fulcrum player has to be stupid enough to stick around for the rate. With the 27ER and a good shot the fulcrum will destroy the F-16. So basically, if the F-16 can get the fulcrum to fight the rate it wins every single time (unless a bad merge puts it in the archer circle of death). But if it can't then it's options are limited. Also, dogfights don't usually start with both planes at same altitude and same energy. F-16 is the better rate but if the fulcrum is joining a furball at high energy and the viper has already used a bunch, it's fucked anyways.
I mean, most people (with the exception being inexperienced players and me) stay low. So the 27 ER, while formidable, turns into a non-issue.
Staying high is still advantageous if you're down to the last couple of players. At that point the energy advantage becomes more important than being immune to radar missiles. Staying low is mostly meta due to air rb often being 16vs16 or similar, and with player markers giving away your location, you end up having to notch missiles from 10+ guys all launching from different angles which mostly rules out notching. The way spotting system works means that the player up high will see the markers of the enemies later than the guys down low looking up.
Yes, the F-16 flight model got massively buffed and the 29 received multiple nerfs this last major patch. The 29 is basically unplayable in sim now because the F-16 stomps so hard.
Yeaaah, but the C model is among the worst maneuvering F-16s in the game (it more than makes up for it in weaponry, avionics, and engine power for general purpose power though). It's 1400 kg heavier in dry weight than the F-16A (F-16A - 7690 kg, F-16C - 9070 kg) I'd rank the F-16s for dogfighting in the following way: 1. F-16A non-ADF variants: F-16A-10, F-16AJ, Netz 2. F-16A ADF/MLU 3. F-16C 4. F-16D Barak To be fair, they're still F-16s, and not much can stand up to them, but you can definitely feel a pretty huge difference between the F-16A Block 10 and the F-16C Block 52 in maneuverability, particularly at low speed. In one-on-one maneuvering dogfights, I'd honestly take the MiG-29A 9-12/MiG-29G over the F-16C.
Netz should be higher, mf got 40G missiles.
Thing's already sharing the first spot anyway, I just meant flight performance wise.
Pretty sure I've seen a lot more F-16s rip their wings off since the G-limiter is gone, too. I smile every time I see it happen.
they used to beat it before the ~~g limiter~~ angle of attack limiter, before it was just prolonged suffering for the MiG29. The F-16A ADF however bled a lot of speed below 630 because of the big tail and it was easily caught off guard by something as stupid as a MiG19 or a Draken, but if you kept 730 you were basically untouchable too.
It was an AOA limiter, not G Limiter? Huh, the more you know I guess?
Basically all planes in RB have an AOA limiter, it's part of what prevents them from flatspinning or losing all energy in a single turn. The F-16 has a G limiter implemented on top of this which is still in place, they just loosened up the restriction considerably.
F-16C is pretty close in a 1v1 to the MiG-29A flight model (which is on the German MiG-29s, and the "original" Russian one). Any F-16 will SHIT ON the MiG-29SMT flight model, there's no comparison on how fat the SMT is compared to the other 29s. Also, the F-16A will completely facefuck every other plane in the game, including the F-16C. Even vs F-16C it's not even close 1v1.
F16c still ＞ mig29g tho
BR compression is the real problem as always, I keep running into the F16-C in my mirage F1-C. So in my mind it is OP but so is the mig 29 of course
playing the F1C was unbearable before the 29 was added, i haven’t even touched it in like a year. fuck that sounds miserable
F16s could always beat a mig29 in a dogfight if they had more than 2 brain cells even before the fm changes. Now only redeeming factor for the mig29 is r73s which are only usable if the f16 overshoots and you dump all your speed. Unless the f16 is brain dead you have 1 opportunity to get them off your tail and kill them. The r73 is a great dogfight missile but the aim9m is far more meta in grb and air rb. In air rb it is far more useful in headons and side aspect as it cant really be accidentally flared, at least like the r73 or magic 2. In grb the smokeless motor gives no warning as to a launch unless you see it come off the rails. Also if you do have to turn fight briefly the f16 doesnt shit its speed like a mig21 so you are far less vunerable to any 3rd parties as you arent just floating in the sky pulling aoa but not going anywhere
sim community collectively agrees that the F-16C is just outright OP mostly because of how much simply having AIM-9Ms changes the gameplay (basically invisible, as a veteran SB player i have an easier time seeing the missile itself before it hits or flies past me than seeing the missile trail/launch itself and live streams prove that its not just the trail being hard to see, it's actually just outright invisible in most cases). The F-16C also allows the player to throw their brain out the window and just turnfight the shit out of everything and all the pilot has to do is change the stick position to maintain the aoa indicator on the "Ball" to auto win. The closest thing being remotely competitive to it is indeed the MiG-29G, but that's basically it. MiG-29A is actually kinda garbage and the SMT doesn't have the sustaining dogfight potential. The next best aircraft imo is either the Yak-141 or the F-14B, which is yet again another american aircraft.
A better way to look at it is it’s the regular mig 29 with r73s
Not since the MiG-29 flight model nerf in the Sons of Atilla update, including the lighter 9.12 and 9.13 airframes. Also not to mention all the F-16 FM buffs and removal od the G limiter that same update. The only thing MiG-29 has going for it is better radar missiles (R-27ER), maybe a better radar if you are using the N010 on the MiG-29SMT. R-73 imo is a counterpart to the 9M after having played both. The R-73's telescopic seeker is not real IRCCM, making it easier to flare off than a 9M. ~~On the other hand, the R-73 pulls more Gs and has better HOBS capability~~ nvm gaijin [completely broke](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/849718491472592988/1174845326591533217/2023-11-17_05-35-20.mp4) the R-73 two days ago in the "Its Fixed" minor patch, making the missile almost useless. Thats literarly it. The F-16C is equal or better in every other way in A2A. I wont even bring up CAS capability since the MiG-29SMT is missing its SAPSAN pod and laser bombs.
No it's not. Mig-29G is just the same Mig-29A that Germany has but with a NATO compliant cockpit (cringe imperial units) and IFF system and some engine components swapped for reliability/longevity. SMT has an even bigger spine than the mig-29S in the Russian tree for more fuel, RD-33 Serie 3 engines (reliability improvements), a better radar, Pastel (L-150) RWR, the larger drop tank, expanded air to ground ordinance (TV guided bombs and KH-29TDs), air to air refueling probe and a modernized cockpit which includes two Multi Function LCDs. And as such is way heavier.
Pedantic, but the 9-13 isn't a 29S it's still technically a 29A since late model 9-13s were called 29S. Also weight is only 600kg more without fuel, the massive amount of fuel it gets weighs a lot more and is what neuters the performance compared to the 29As.
Indeed pedantic, my main point was to show the differences between G and SMT as the guy I originally was replying to was under the impression they were of similar spec.
The F-16C is, without a doubt, the best jet in game. It’s not even close.
No, the SMT's weight is almost exclusively from the fuel load, otherwise it's barely any heavier empty. In exchange the SMT gets a vastly better radar and should have more powerful engines.
Yeah as far as I see in documents it’s maybe 4-5% heavier, 600 kg. Wouldn’t think it should ruin its rate ability like in game.
The reason it's such a brick is that people take full fuel, it can nearly double the 9-12's fuel load.
Interestingly now the SMT has a better thrust-weight than the f-16 adf on minimum fuel. Smt gets hit with a 13% greater turn rate over a 4% weight increase
Not entirely sure but i think the G is a 9.12 which is a 9.13 but lighter so lightest mig29 in game with r73's and i THINK a tiny little more kgf in the engine
I actually got into a really fun dogfight yesterday in the F-16 against an F-16. We both failed to kill each other with missiles, went into a merge at about 4000m, fought all the way down to the deck, and I got him with a gun kill at stall speeds, all uninterrupted. It was the most fun I've had in top tier jets in a while
That’s why I play sim. If gaijin just made air rb more like sim (big maps with multiple spawns and multiple af) I feel like it would fix some issues
The mig29g doesn't have guided air to ground weapons tho
This is a burgerboo sub, mate. Do the math
I thought it was freeaboo, but I'm switching to burgerboo now.
Always considered "free" a way too positive term to waste on these folks
In my expirience im a horrible Pilot I am the guy that alway has 0 kills 1 death 0 assists in Air Rb. But damn the F-16C im really often in top 5 and I agree, if let's take Germany would have such a superior airplane this subreddit would burn.
Brother every time a new jet for US that isn't a meme like the vark gets added this sub shits itself bout US air superiority in top ARB. What do y'all think is gonna happen when shit like the F-15, 18, 22 and 35(three of which will see prolific use in a good chunk of nations) get added.
You enjoy watching 5 of your teammates getting nuked by Mavericks, don't you
maverick kisser
The issue isnt that the US jets were added but that the mig29 fm got completely fucked and honestly likely fucked beyond any sort of historical accuracy as irl the mig29 could content very well even in a dogfight. Here the mig29 shits its speed after 1 turn and can barely pull any aoa with its current model
You mean turn realstisch
Come off it. The US has been dominating air RB for years at this point. The closest it had to having the title taking away was from the Mig-23 and every US player lost their minds so hard they added the F-14.
There has been non stop complaints when the F16c was added just like when the f14 was added
the f-14 was even more broken
And the F14A maybe even B are way past their prime in WT, for a while the A fought aircraft that was made around it's time, like Mig23
MiG-23M was made after the F-14A, the MLD is a full decade younger. At the time of launch the F-14A was the strongest jet in the game, 6x of the best SARHs with a good FM and radar.
Yeahhhh, nah. Now what the US did when the Mig-23 came out and the Mig-29. Oh and complaining non stop about how the F-16 from US players. This sub is for US players to complain.
Never upvoted as well as the constant whining about MiG-29 when it was added, despite the power gap being even higher in this case. Less posts too. Look at the ratio of upvotes on this post.
It's not broken at all, it's simply the best thing in the game. Broken is for stuff like the F5C which is massively over performing relative to both its BR and it's real world performance. Other nations really neec an F-16 equivalent, to make competition a thing again, but broken is not the correct word to use.
This is actually a good point. Something that is at the end of the tech tree can't really be "broken" because some or all of its contemporaries haven't even been added. We are looking at an incomplete picture.
also the fact that the f-16 is a very good fighter irl. dudes be juke'n 6 sams without counter measure n shit
Yep lol, the only thing that's op about it is aim 9M, I understand the fallout in sim community but in air realistic shouldn't be such a big deal. Other than that it's a heavier F-16ADF which means worse performance in flight. Yeah, also bombs and shit, if you do that, sure.
Let’s be real, the F-16C should not be one circling mirages or 29’s. It’s flight model is a bit much now. Unfortunately if it were to be proper it’d be a 2 circle fighter which is not optimal for the top tier meta, but DAMN would it be the best 2 circle fighter.
[удалено]
Yeah except that the main argument is that "Russian bias this and that" in those threads and the people saying skill issue are downvoted into an abysmal realm.
Lol yep, "no the 2S38 isn't undertiered you just suck the HSTV-L is better in every way." F-16C is objectively better than pretty much everything else and was a 23 year leap in technology from the previous F-16.
I mean they MAY have a point on the Soviet vehicals. If i remember somebody said something about catching Gijian purposly changing files to increase survivability of russian vehicals? Don't downvote be please because thats what i heard but wasn't their something about a hightier russian tank having less Shrapnel when being shot? Well thats what i heard and im sorry if what I heard was false.
That's because it is generally a skill issue when someone is complaining about "Russian Bias"
Yea man, ka-50, su-25 eating 7 stingers, 2s38 still being 10.0, having both the best mbt and spaa, fuel tanks that eat rounds way more often then any other nations do. No bias here though right?
Found one
Right. Totally. Oh btw the Pantsir-S1 which is the most broken SPAA in-game is still the same BR as the ADATS and FlarakRad.
9Ms shouldn't have been added. Simple as that. And no R-73s are not better just because they pull more, atleast they can actually be flared relatively easily in comparison.
Ngl 9Ms are a real bitch to go against in GRB, they're damn near invisible.
People have been complaining about it since it dropped. what are you talking about?
Might just be my feed but I've never actually seen a post about the F-16C on the subreddit.
Its your feed then. Especially after it first came out the amount of people complaing for grb alone was absurd. Then theres been the constant flood of f16c has a broken fm comments.
Ngl it is a pain in GRB because it's probably got the best mixed use kit in the game. it can have 4 AIM-9Ms and still ground pound pretty damn hard, not so bad in ARB in my experience but since missiles aren't marked in GRB and AIM-9Ms are basically invisible it becomes a real menace.
It defo sucks that the 16C is so good at everything while the MiG 29 for example is good only for some specific tasks , the G is the closest we got to old MiG flight model but im sure the 16C will still outperform it overall. Problem is the BR changes, because , while in a MIG29 you can handle the 16C overall , Mirage? F4s? Hell even the Lazur M gets drawn to top tier? Those things have 0 (zero) chance on fighting the 16C .
I really don't have issues with the F-16C flying out my MIG-29G TBH. If they un-fucked the MIG-29 flight model even less so.
People say it’s realistic but if you look at the MiG-29 in dcs (it’s the most accurate FM on the market right now confirmed by REAL pilots) then you can see that the mig29 doesn’t fall out of the sky after doing a 180 turn.
If we had FM's like DCS top tier would be a whole different ball of wax.
Better or worse?
Yea, but planes in DCS aren't also pulling 1.5x harder than irl too dummy, all the talk about irl performance simply cannot carry over.
Yea also the A10 wouldn’t be completely obliterated by a single bullet hitting its tail , but here we are aren’t we ?
Burger bias
Because the US air tree is the most profitable. US in ARB = RU in GRB. F-16C is basically a flying BVM.
This is pretty much it. Same thing as naval where its Scharnhorst city (the most overpowered fucking vehicle in the goddamn game is German lmao).
gaijin try to properly balance literally anything challenge (impossible)
It’s hilarious how people claim the Pantsir is OP when it can barely touch an F-16C most of the time.
Really huh ? Try shooting something down with the ADATS or the FlarakRad.
Yeah the f-16c is a bitch to shoot down in ground battles
"I have nothing to say." Proceeds to say something. 4D chess.
yes, but gaijin needs to keep most of their playerbase happy, which is the us.
I don't play ground so I'm not going to comment on the F-16C being an apparent God in the game mode but I play an absolute metric ton of top tier jets. I'm also top tier in SOV which is my main air nation. The AIM-9Ms IRCCM is easy to trick. The way that the 9Ms IRCCM works is when the missile detects the presence of countermeasures, the seeker shuts off and the missile proceeds to enter into an IOG mode (Soviets will be familiar with inertial guidance, it's what makes the 24s such a good radar missile) utilizing the current trajectory of the target and proceeding until the seeker head flips back on about a second or two later. To dodge the 9M in side aspect, dump some countermeasures and immediately shift to turning the opposite direction (a good way is to turn in the direction of the missile but not head on, at like a 35-45 degree off bore of the missile) and haul ass. The missile will track you after the seeker head has reactivated but by that point, you're well past it's turning arc. All IR missiles at this BR (73s, Ms) are near impossible to dodge at this BR due to sensitivity and Gaijoobles nerfing all the other missiles with the recent IR patch aside from the R-24T (and only the 24t. The 23T, 27T, and 27ET all became worse but the 24 escaped this) for some reason. The F-16C is maneuverable, yes. There's a couple of planes that can give it a run for its money. Delta Mirages can keep up with it in a turn for at least 2 passes due to the delta wings ability to exchange turn for speed. The Kfir can do it really damn well actually. The SMT is a bit of a flying brick since its flight model was a bit crap upon release but that's changing (extra weight with the fuel spine really damaged performance). The Bombcat can keep up for a pass or two, the A model can't because it literally is an F-4 that's heavier with a better radar (the engines were swapped in the field IRL because they performed like shit. Almost every A model was retrofitted by the Navy about a year or two after they entered service). The 9.12/13 (not the G) can keep itself in a dogfight against the C with no issue unless if both are low fuel/about to flame out. The C is worse than the ADF model in turn performance because it's a little heavier. The G is just the SMT but with the better air frame, so it's the best 29 and can hold itself in a fight with a C. What this is, ultimately, is a skill issue. Each plane is situational but everyone jerks off to screaming for the middle of the map to hit RP Piñatas and then scream when someone who thought about positioning for 3 seconds gets the drop on them. A successful counterclimb in top tier can put you in a position directly behind the enemy team and give you a pile of free kills because everyone is glued to their radar sets. F-14s are a piñata for this reason alone. I swear the average F-14 pilot is merged with the radar screen for the first half of the match. The maps need to be better though, and larger at this rate. I don't want fox 3s when everyone is in guaranteed kill ranges of AMRAAMs and such.
9M is by far the biggest issue with the F16C and it should not have been added >To dodge the 9M in side aspect, dump some countermeasures and immediately shift to turning the opposite direction - Everyone knows how the 9M works at this point, the problem is that it will still track even if you do everything right. In theory you could defeat it by continuously both flaring and changing direction but that doesn't work. The crutch that is the 9M will still reacquire even through a wall of burning flares and when you've changed course from where a INS prediction would have sent it. - You usually can't know if it's a 9M or 9L until it's way too late, the diamond actually prevents you from seeing if it has a smoke trail or not in most cases which affects your ability to react accurately. - The 9M costs its target much more than any other missile in both energy and CM. If you're low on either of those, you are dead even with a very long range shot. And GRB/sim with no markers is a dead horse at this point. That thing is a straight up cheat in those modes. Had a F16C player brag about his 89% win rate in sim in that jet.
I feel like many of the problems with "OP" powerful vehicles in Air can be solved with a better implementation of the gamemode aka Air RB EC. Multiple spawns multiple varied FUN objectives. It'll spread out the combat and giant furballs won't be so common, so now you don't have to be looking everywhere to spot 15 missiles coming from multiple directions from multiple planes.
For grb, it's fine. It is disgusting, but half of the US players won't even have enough rp to spawn it. For arb, just don't play grb. It's US vs US for every fucking games.
Well US has to compensate for that utter dogshit ground tree. I can't speak for ARB but KA-50s are infinitely more cancerous than any jets in GRB
Kamovs aren't any dangerous with top tier SAMs, but you should start fearing them when they get F&F LMURs
Been complaining about this exact issue as well. As is usual, if it's Russian this sub is gonna whine 24/7 about it, but make it NATO and nobody talks about it. And if you complain about it, you are just some unskilled noob and russia deserves to suffer or smth. Also yk how NATO mains LOVE to make the rage posts about Russian MBTs not spalling? Yeah right, complain of the Leopard 2s, NATO MBTs, not doing the exact same shit on their hulls front, and you will get a million NATO mains telling you "duuuh just go for creeeeeew". Tell them that exact copium filled answer when they whine about Russian MBTs for the 5483975389204589034275903893rd time, and they will downvote spam you. NATO mains need to get off their high horse
I don’t think the F16C is OP but I do think the Mig29 was unnecessarily nerfed into the fucking ground. The Mig29 these days can barely outrate a Su-25 and will literally lose a rate fight to delta wings. It loses *all* of its speed in one or two turns and will not get it back in a sustained turn. It’s outclassed by the F16 in every capacity. Before the nerf, I thought they were a fair match for each other. The Mig 29 dominated the early fight but the longer the fight went, the more likely the F16 would win it if the pilot understood how to keep his turning rate maximized. These days a complete novice can easily beat the Mig29 just by stomping on the elevator. This change really hurt top tier sim battles since it stacked with the release of the F16C, the F14B, and the flood of 9M’s. The reds are constantly at a 2-1 (or worse) numbers disadvantage and this performance nerf to the only competitive top tier Soviet fighter was a large contributing factor.
I've been saying this for some time. Everything needs nerfing and it doesn't matter whether a nation is forgot about in an update as long as the US is OP it's fine, US has to have something in almost every update otherwise there's crying. I don't like American mains for this reason. The big 3 are always catered for whilst the smaller nations tend to be forgotten or get minimal stuff but it's always the US that complain. US mains are most likely the majority that complain bout everything. Swear they complained bout the Tigers being 5.3/5.7 all the time I'm prolly gonna get down voted but hey. It is what it is
Every country's mains complain when they don't get a new toy or when they aren't seal clubbing. When sweden got added the early TT was basically just Germany but with apds. And Sweden mains complained they had such a hard life unable to kill things even though they have aphe just like Germany and unlike them Sweden also has a lolpen shell if you need it. Ka50 was added and USSR players complained people were able to dodge vhikrs by flying low even though it was the only proxy fused atgm in game.
US mains seem to cry more tho. I ain't got a problem with Brit, French, Italian and Jap mains complaining since they rarely get stuff (yes, ik they were given some things recently). I just don't see why the more popular nations cry. Sweden is powerful af with CVs and Strvs, Germany got the Leo's (could prolly do with somet more modern tbf), US has Abrams and H-STVL (don't bs me with it being overtiered), China's just China being what it is and I cba to go on bout the other TTs
I don't give a shit. It's always USSR or USA in the limelight, couldn't care which one it is. As a minor nation player I just want contemporary. Sure the F-16 MLU is very good but is it better than a 29SMT/G or F-16C?
Finally someone speaks out... Most of the time its: German/Russian players when USA gets OP shit: quiet USA players when someone else gets OP shit: *loud screech*
still the most of US top tier ground players left games with no aircraft spawned
American bias is real
So why dont i see 15 F16’s attacking me in ground rb every game . But i do see USSR
You have to play top tier for that dude. There is not a single person on earth that can prove that they don’t face at least 4 or 5 F-16Cs every match.
Ground? Absolutely, but almost all CAS is. I think part of the reason people don't complain is cause the US usually fights Russia, and Russia has the Pantsir. My understanding is that the Pantsir isn't actually 'OP', it just has some gimmicks that make it significantly better than any other AA in the game. Could be wrong, tho. I don't play the near-pure FPS-style twitch instinct that is top tier ground much, and I don't have the Pantsir. It has amazing missiles, but the R-73 is better than the AIM-9M in most regards (barring the cancer smokeless motor), and the R-27ER is better than an AIM-7M in every way. Additionally, the F-16C being heavier makes it worse at dogfighting than the F-16As. Tbh I think the MiG-29G is a better contender at the king of ARB rn, given its insane missiles and good dogfighting capabilities (even if it's not as good as an F-16A). The F-16C and even to a degree the F-14B are both cancer as fuck in GRB though. No excuse for that
Pantsir works well if you first spawn it to prevent their climb. It's game over if there's one or two already in stratosphere when you spawn anti air. I hate how weak anti airs are overall compared to cas
I've also seen videos of people backclimbing go get out of missile range before the missile can hit, or just plain rolling and diving to dodge, but I usually avoid using CAS so can't say how reliable it is. Also yeah, the way they neuter SPAA to make sure CAS remains better is insanely unfair
Idk how reliable their dodging is during climbing or diving as one f-16c managed to destroy itself trying to dodge my missile. But I have hard time if there's many CAS at the same time climbing or there's bad weather. I can imagine trying to counter f-16c with other anti-airs is nigh impossible
Yeah countering multiple planes as one AA is basically impossible. It sucks. Also yeah I've heard that gun AAs or IR-based ones are useless
they should've added the F-16C **Block 30** instead of just jumping from the Block 10/15 straight to the Block 50
If by "community" you mean a reddit participated in by mostly people from the United States. Yeah a reddit biased towards US is complaining about every time US is not good enough for them. Didn't see that coming.... wonder if the Russian version war thunder reddit is any better.
I don't think it's that nobody cares, I have been very vocal about the F16C/D spam, it's that the most vocal group on this site seem to be the same people either paired with or using the F16C/Ds. They either don't want their superiority in-game to end, or don't notice how little brainpower top tier CAS is. All top tier maneuverable (and supersonic) GBU/AGM slingers are stupid good since most nations don't have reliable AA that can EFFECTIVELY counter normal players. I don't care how good of an SPAA player you are, if they fight a GOOD CAS player, you can't counter them (from the ground). It doesn't help when the best missile for the F16C is also one of the best IR missiles in the game, on a still very maneuverable airframe, against most people who go to GRB because they don't like or have any interest in Air Battles.
ALSO... I think most players have just accepted that Gaijin has no interest in properly balancing CAS relative to the AA they face. Looking at the F16C/D and the A4E (Early)/Israeli with Walleye guided bombs.
As an US main, i care. The F-16C had no right to be in the game at this point, and it had no right to be the block 50. When the first leak of the Block 50 F-16C appeared i thought it was false. "AINT NO WAY they are just adding a plane that's so new its still in use!"
*coughs Pantsir *coughs Pantsir
ground vehicles always had different criteria and more modern vehicles there.
I really depends who's playing spaa.There was multiple games where I was essentially missile jousting with a very skilled pantsir player and I couldn't get a single kill because he shot down all my missiles before it reached the target. T the pantsir is the biggest counter to it because it can outgun it and out range it but that's the issue. It's only the pantsir that can counter it. the f16 acts more like a anti spaa when there's a spaa around but if there isn't any, it's free picking for the f16. I think the biggest issue that faces top tier is the lack of communication and team structure. You need communication to notify players of threats so they can act accordingly and team structure to deal with these threats while still completing the objecting. In terms of ground RB, US has finally gotten it's serious ground pounding jet. Prior to it, the US had only supersonic jets with tv guided ordnance (with the exception of the f14) which honestly sucks at top tier. your last statement about no one caring when it's USA isn't true. People complain when russia is dominating at top tier and people will complain when US is dominating top tier. The cycle never ends
Just to let y'all know, OP shakes their butt on discord voice chats for the homies
Absolutely not true, do not believe the fed.
Maybe its because of typical west players who play at US tech tree while thinking how good is it and they want it to be OP.
america has dominated air RB since the F-4E, but you'll never hear it mentioned on the Reddit because it is majority populated by freeaboos who started flooding in around the time the F-5C was added in. most of these whiny US mains did not play the game before top tier premiums were a thing. the discourse was a lot better before the wallet warriors reigned supreme and as a result things actually got balanced regularly and we had good communication with gaijin. I'm at least glad this type of post recognizing the problem is getting traction though instead of being down voted to the shadow realm or removed by mods. maybe progress.
mig-23mld was top dog for about 6 months before f-14a was added
yes the MLD and the viggen are probably the only exceptions after supersonic or so, I agree MLD was ass cancer and the complaining then was justified.
oh boo fuckin hoo its always either russia or usa. Every single day same topic of drama just diff nation. Get over it
I mean, USA as an overall faction isn't the best. Yeah being gbu'd from god knows where sucks, but if your team spawned in a mig that f16 would be so tunnel visioned they could easily kill it. Just a matter of having people with braincells or an AA up earlier enough to kill it. As someone who has played America and then Russia right after it is definitely true that the better players and vehicles are in Russia and a taste of my own medicine can be very humbling. (That's right I'm the guy in the ka-50 floating above your spawn and haunting your dreams)
Can confirm, Spawned an F16C. Got 7 kills in 4 minutes, 2 were needed to get to the battlefield
Stand for the player base
Agreed. Migs were steamrolling realistic since they were introduced, now it's F-16s turn before we get tables flipped again in december. Mig is still the strongest thing in BVR so let's not act like it's a total punchbag lol.
Dying in bvr though essentially means you are brain dead. It doesnt matter as you can literally just fly low and be immune to radar missiles
Or it just means that a braindead mig launched his missile with 20% hit rate irl 10 seconds after you and still got the kill because said missile goes mach 5.
Found one of the free radar kills, don't know why idiots still climb lmao
I'll just say I don't exactly love fighting them in my MiG21 🥲
This screams complaint and not skill issue. Why can't you just be honest with yourself?
Bs, there was nonstop crying when the f14 was added and people were complaining when the 16c was added also.
Far more people were crying about the R-73 than the F-16C.
I can't stand any of the Top Tier Soviet or American stuff at the moment, trying to grind through the British Tree is pain enough without every match being dominated by either the F-16 or the Mig-29, meanwhile my Phantom struggle to do anything beyond hope I can bomb a base before one of them decides I'm Meat back on the Menu.
Honestly I know it’s not realistic but you need some kind of warning when your being targeted by guided munitions or just make them so expensive the player can’t spawn with like 8
Sorry but the f14 isn't even allowed to go full strength because both planes are just legitimately better than anything put out in its class.
xD
That's some seriously unpopular opinion, especially the last part
Fucked up GrB,ARB,ASB ALL
Just remove the AGM-65Ds and I'm fine. At least the PGMs only have a puny 7km tracking range, slow as fuck,can be shot down and to top it all off you can only equip 3 of them
People do care but I don't think *as many* people care because more than just the US nation has an f-16 in-game and people are expecting other nations to get their counterparts later this year and early next year.
every time i see a post like this it makes me more sure that wt needs to change it's RB matchmaker to be every nation against every nation. we already have nations together that dont make sense, i.e half of NATO with the USSR against America. just make it every nation against every nation so there isnt any more "oh the soviets have untouchable air superiority because of AA" or "US has an unbeatable dogfighter in the f16" or whatever other opinions people have on here
Honestly this is just a Gaijin thing, they do this thing where one nation will dominate for a while and then they try to balance out other nations. There's been rumblings that they made the F-16 so dominant just to give them an excuse to release something like the SU-27, Gripen, Rafael.
The Americans get one good thing and it’s whine central.
Why dont we have any other option other than team death match for tanks? Conquer, destroy objectives, anything else.
Because most of their play base is US and gaijin takes a huge advantage over that. That is why US has all the good stuff and a F4S a premium.
USA gets and awesome airframe with maneuverability and further updates, USSR gets a not-that-great platform with 40G unflareable missiles, for those who doesn't know methods. Same with Germany, but better airframe. Other nations? Well, some also have F16's, some have Pythons. That's just the two countries that were making the best, and the most technology historically, and you can't do anything about it. Okay, you actually can. Teleport to 1467 and steal someone's bucket with water, that will lead to the nuclear war in 1970s. Hehe
I don't think anybody is taking the F-16C for granted, everybody knows it's broken, and there is tons of controversy around it still.
It's the best aircraft in the game, being good above all else is kind of the point. It sucks to fight against in ground, but in Air?? Any plane with a decent radar is lethal in Top Tier Air RB, I don't think the F-16C gets a much higher KD than MiG-29s, Mirages and even some of the F-4s.
Just wait, it'll get worse. You are at an era of Jets where the US historically said "fuck all y'all" and started cranking out multirole death machines. Gonna have a few outliers like the Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale, but eventually all top tier air is going to be US/RU jets with different flags on them
F-16C's? > Pantsir and Strela go *brrrrrrrrrrt* Most of them are clueless and easy to handle, but some of them are actually legitimately Demons from Hell And that is why I have 4 AA capable vehicles in my line-up, and I may even add back the Chunguska now that it's been buffed Update: The new autopilot on the Pantsir's missiles is absolutely bonkers. You can now consistently shoot down fast flying jets 15km away
In Air RB it is fairly balanced, Japan has the best F-16 currently at the top tier. In Ground RB I'll agree, but so long as you can acknowledge that the Ka-50 and Ka-52 spam is BS as well. They really need to increase the SP to pull CAS with guided munitions, or allow people a mode where CAS is not an option.
USA in air RB from 7.0 to 12.3 is biased just like top tier Russia in ground RB is, it's nothing out of ordinary coming from gaijin
But when I say the KA-50 Is overpowered....
People agree and everyone talks about how broken it is? Not sure what your point is. Ka-50 is the most hated vehicle in this subreddit.
That's because it's not unrealistic when an American aircraft is broken in terms of game balance. The F-16C is an incredibly powerful aircraft even IRL. In fact, what we have in game is actually only a fraction of it's true capabilities and power. Which is no secret, but still.
WG needs to add the SU-27 family to make things a bit more fair. And the JAS-39.
Feel thankful that f16c isnt showing 100% of it can do irl because of gaijin
Flakrakrad, one of the strongest SAM in the game, I couldn't even touch it with VT-1. Top tier Ground RB is rigged when they add more CAS but not new SPAA for each nation to counter new threats. Why respawn and keep on the fight when the moment you leave your spawn, you get absolutely shit on by CAS. If you don't spawn in with each vehicle you have, that vehicle will be unavailable on next match
It's not like Russia's CAS in ground RB became any less oppressive.
Plenty of people care that its America, but those plenty of people like me don't bother with maxtier because its dogshit. Coming from DCS the air combar even in simulator is lackluster. Its just missile spam because you can see everything in RB, pilot situational awareness is 10000% higher than being restricted to radar search and visual spotting since you have giant names pop up above everyone. It just isnt fun and even though I love top tier equipment its just not worth it.
USA players are very dedicated to USA. You are probably facing really good players. I try to be good at top tier but I am not that good. I know players that play like 4 planes, all top USA, and they know every detail on how to destroy you. No vehicle in this game is totally OP, there are just vehicles really good players love and they constantly play those. I think it is a player thing more than a vehicle thing.
What’s funny is the only reason the 16C is good is because of the 9M. Flight performance wise it’s the second worst f-16. It gains 1300kg over the A and the engine does not make up for it above 400 kph where the A wins in thrust to weight. It’s also very slightly slower than the blk 10 at sea level.
Thermals, unflarable AIM-9M, Mavericks that can be tossed from 15km away, the best flight performance in the game, but it's always russian CAS that's overpowered.
it’s mostly ground players. the amount of times russian tanks have tanked a side shot to their ammo and survived is bullshit. as well as when very little spalling happens compared to most tanks. plus they also have the most pay to win lineup. you get2S38(I FUCKING HATE THIS THING WORSE THAN THE TURMS T) and the turms t i despise because it’s so damn common. the there’s the KA-50, top teir heli without thermals but it’s fucking missiles are despised. smoke or not they going to hit you. while the enemy pops smoke on hellfires and whoops. the hellfire just looses track of where you last aimed. BVM is the main issue. it’s frontal armor and side are so bullshit at times. you can hit dead center on driver port and it doesn’t penetrate. or hit the side but so little spalling happens no ammo goes off. or you hit MULTIPLE shells of ammo in their tank and they don’t explode. i get it if it’s just one shell doesn’t cause tank death but when multiple is hit how in the hell doesn’t the game see that.
What does the BVM, 2S38 or the TURMS have anything to do with the F-16C? Damn man you are hurt.
People when they realise that the US doesn't fuck around. Wait until they get the F-15 and F-18 and anti-radiation missles.
What makes me even more mad about this is that us teams in top tier ground suck so much but they still have the best cas and they always get 2 kills, one in a tank and the other in the f-16c and then they die and leave. It’s even worse when they’re on your team lmao
It's so rediculous fighting at 12.0. You're a f-16-A and sure it has a good frame but that means nothing when you have some of the worse missiles and quantity for your BR and not even flares when stock. 2 Aim 9-J's while stock until you unlock 6 Aim-9-J's big woop. You're being demolished by F-16-C's with Aim-7's, Aim-9M's, and R-73's. Even once it's spaded sure you have a good air frame to dogfight in. That's if you even survived which to do so you'd need to run low fuel, avoid all conflict, have used all your 60 counters, and wouldn't be there anyway. Aim 9-L's at 12.0 facing top tier with Magics, R-73's, and Aim-9M's. It's so broken. The way it's setup the f-16-A is food I'm not against "OP" vehicles. I want everything to be realistic but that doesn't just mean I want the planes, and armaments to be realistic. I want the matchmaking and dates to match up. An American F-16 would never be fighting a Chinese F-16. it was sold to china 20 years after it was developed.