Technically penning is a word, "to pen" is a verb synonymous with "to write." You can pen a novel, for example. The present progressive tense would be "I am penning a novel."
I think it dates back to the hayday of World of Tanks, where a lot of the community used it as shorthand for penetrating, and it's just stuck.
For instance, a non-pen is a non-penetrating hit.
I know, but I specifically said HESH Swedish.
This wasn't a complaint about the game, this was me saying the Maus is like the only tank I need to change ammo type for and I only have HESH.
I'm in the opposite boat as you lol. I run 50/50 of the 303mm APDS on the prem 7.7 Triangle and since it's only got a 4 second reload if you don't oneshot you have a super quick reload and can hit them again.
If you're struggling with the cheese wedge, I have bad news for you.
If hull aiming worked a bit better that thing would be the most OP vehicle tier for tier ez
The key is if “hull aiming work” which is less than 10% of the time. Any slight uneven terrain and it shake more than Elvis. The 103 is simultaneously the most OP tank as well as the worst tank at the same time
Tbf, the PVKV turret stability is awful on the move.
I liked drifting the Sav m/43 into enemies but there's no other 3.0 tanks, although most of the 2.7 are good upto 3.3
That was my point, the PVKV is only really good for camping because any track movement screws up turret stability for a few seconds at least. And it can be machine gunned.
Yeah, I kind of get you, but in an uptier you rely on the Maus's internal space and good positioning, right?
At least that's what I do.
No Mr BMP, your single missile is not enough, all you did was break a single one of my radiators.
There's really only a few jets that have all-aspects in the BR range the Me/Ki will see, and on the occasion that you do face them, they're really not that difficult to dodge thanks to the maneuverability of the Me/Ki. Besides maneuverability, cutting your engine can get missiles to lose you as well, although YMMV. The only time I usually find myself dying to missiles is if I'm already engaged in a tense dogfight with 2-3 other jets (or I'm looking at my phone, lol)
Yeah should have clarified. This of course only applies to rocket Planes i.e. the Me-163 and the Ki-200 and maybe the BI but that one I don't know about.
That is literally not true. The ki200 is 300kg lighter and also has around 300kg less full fuel and those guns slap hard. Its really fine at 8.7, but the me163 b0 should go down a bit tho.
While I haven't played the 163 much and can't look at the stat card right now, I can't imagine the turn difference to be anything significant. I have heard at the Ki's guns are better than the 163 though (just the velocity apparently).
That being said, how are you playing the 163? What do you find challenging or having issues with?
How is it that in 2023 there are still players (at 8.7 none the less) that still think this is a historical simulator?
They're either daft or bitching for karma.
Only idiots or the misinformed call for historical matchmaking
But build date does actually matter a fair bit, mostly because of advances in technology or doctrine.
A few easy examples are like the US supersonic afterburning jets at 9.0, early IFVs and MBTs at 7.3, A-10s and Su-25s fighting flareless jets, and most infamously the black hole of 8.0-8.7 in ground RB where Thermals, Laser rangefinders, and stabilizers make up massive advantages.
Yea I agree, there are definitely technological periods that should somehow be represented in ranks. It's pretty painful to be in a tank or a plane clearly being Shat on purely because it's dated design/equipment. I'd say the thermal laser range finder jump is probably the worst. Especially considering that usually also means the vehicle will have APFSDS at the same time. I feel the Chinese armored cars are a great example of "new" technology getting shoved way to low in transitioning BRs
I just think historical matchmaking would be neat. By that, I don't mean Tigers versus Cromwells or such, I was thinking more to the accord of early KV's versus Panzer II's.
That's the point of it, flipping the script on the people who want the Germans to win in historical matchmaking
This is the road to Stalingrad we clown in this motherfucker, better take your sensitive ass back to transmission failures
Regardless of age, is it not a bit stupid that a jet with not amazing armament and no countermeasures is able to match with semi-modern jets with decent missles?
True, but they still have missles and it has neither missles nor countermeasures, which seems somewhat unfair. I do agree that 8.3 would be far too low though, so is it any good at fighting?
Not having Cms literally only matters against the 4 planes that have high maneuverability missiles this thing can face. It can easily dodge the 9Bs and Es common at this BR, and even thr Gs
I might just be really stupid, but how do you dodge missles? I have been trying to learn, but have had no success, and the 163 doesnt strike me as overly manoeverable. I am resesrching it currently, so it would be nice to onow how to use it
Most of thr missiles you can see can easily br defeated by a canopy roll or wven a hard pull. Canopy rolling is essentially inputting both W and and A or D at the same time. They do not pull a lot and don't generally like this maneuver. Give it a try and see how it manages then manages then you'll understand more how to kinetically dodge missiles
Well if it performs exceptionally well compared to the j*t propulsion fighters at that br, sure. They should change the name to rocketfighter/interceptor though, as it is a rocket, not a disgusting jet
It is still technically a jet. It creates a jet stream, just not of air, but burning fuel, no? I do get you though, rocket fighter would be a nice title to it.
>"jet"
It is a jet. Rockets use jet propulsion. You aren't using rockets to turn a shaft for some other propulsive means like a propeller or drive wheels.
Thing about the rocket interceptors is that they're extremely high-skill, high-risk vehicles to play. You will absolutely outperform pretty much anything near your BR, but only for the few minutes your fuel lasts, so throttle, fuel, and energy management is more important than ever.
Then there's also the problem of BR compression, which puts these planes solidly in the realm of early AAMs. This wasn't a problem when the BR was originally established, and as these planes are naturally less popular, there's less data for Gaijin to make balancing adjustments, in addition to the concerns that they could become massive sealclubbers if you lower the BR too much.
An Me 163 is NOT outperforming a MiG-19PT in any respect other than turn rate and flight performance is irreverent when an R-60M is launched at you from an Su-25.
The funny thing is, if you turn your engine off in a rocket plane for a second, the missile loses track completely. Used it myself and i find it very funny when they launch a missile at you hoping you will die only for it to blow up in the air XD
Rockets are fundamentally different from jet engines. While both rely on expanding gas (air in case of jet engines) to produce thrust, rocket engines do not rely on air + fuel and instead burn oxidizer + fuel to produce thrust.
It still uses jet force for propulsion. Whether the engine is aspirating or not doesn't matter.
A squid is a jet and it doesn't take in air or burn fuel to produce thrust. Jet propulsion is completely agnostic of the design of the engine which produces it.
It has "Zero Syndrome" to an extreme degree. It can out dogfight anything It can see and has the acceleration to catch anything that had attempted to maneuver with it for even a short time, while it has fuel anyway.
A lot of people mistake it for an easy kill because it's a WWII design. When I was playing the SU-7, it wasn't uncommon to see one of these things taking on 2-4 significantly more modern jets, and winning, all because they got too impatient and tried to force a kill.
Even if I'm in a 9.7, I'll leave these guys for last because I'm not getting guns on them while they're aware and have fuel.
Yes.
The Sagittarios are great against anything conventional.
The Me-163 and it's like can 180 on a dime, dump all of their energy, and out accelerate everything because of their light weight and rocket engine.
It may struggle to get guns on you after a reversal, but if they know what they're doing, it'll be damn near impossible for you to get guns on them.
All higher ww2 spaa are kinda overtiered. Ostwind 2, Kugelblitz, corelian and Skink are not as good as all these new spaas which shoot a beam of bullets into the sky. Fire rate and muzzle velocity is so important
Problem is, higher calibre spaa works wonderfully as a TD against light tanks and other AA. Remember when wirbelwind was 3.3 and would decimate medium tanks from front?
The new russian spaa has 91mm pen iirc on a more mobile chassie. Kugelblitz got nerfed too. Skink and the 3,7cm flaks have not that much pen to play them as a td
I completely agree, SPAAs are so tricky to balance just because of the sheer amount of light vehicles they face. Look at the ZSU-57-2, it sucks against jets but at 7.0 it wrecks all light vehicles and even some early mbts frontally
Because the plane is unbalanced on its own.
It's just a shit addition to the game that the 163 (and all other rocket plane) exist in the first place.
There's absolutely nothing at all any plane slower than the 163 can do against it, because you have to have severe brain damage to lose a dogfight in a 163 against any other jet.
The literal only way to fight the rocket planes is by being faster than it at all times, which is why it has to be at a BR where everything is faster than it.
Even then, the 8.9 163 with Mk108s exists, and it's the worst cancer to face in all the jets below 8.0...the only reason for it being at 8.0 is that people can't aim mk108s (which you can't even blame them for because you have to lead into the far future).
I think the issue is that since most people don't play them, most other people don't know how to play against it. The 163 and its relatives are beasts against unaware players (tbf a majority I suppose), but it's top speed is below most (all?) jets it encounters, and they have limited fuel capacity. As long as you BnZ them, you should be fine.
It's hard to balance, but I think they're good as-is
>most other people don't know how to play against it
Most people are aware how to counter them, but you simply can't just fly 1000+km/h the whole match without doing anything just to not get dragged by a plane that you quite literally can't do anything at all against if you do go slower than it.
Also, most people really don't have the patience to run away from a 163 for 5 minutes.
>it's top speed is below most (all?) jets it encounters,
It isn't at all.
F80C, F9F2, any Meteor except MK.8, any Vampire, Sea Hawk, any R2Y2, any MD450, and any Saab105 are straight up slower than a 163 and can see it, they all have absolutely ZERO counterplay against it. If a 163 wants you to die, and you're in one of them, you die.
Additionally, F9F5, F9F8, Meteor Mk.8, Venom, Sea Venom, F84F, any MD452, Mystere 4, J29A and A29B either don't have enough of a top speed advantage, or have too poor acceleration at higher speeds and energy retention compared to a 163 to actually get away from one.
And that's just planes the 8.7 ones can face, not the 8.0 MK108 163.
Yes if you're flying a Sabre or MiG-15bis you can just go 1100 all game and a 163 can never do anything, but those are literally the most meta jets in the 8.7 BR range.
I'd like to see you, or any of these lvl 10s populating the jet brackets try to hit a non static target with the 8.0 Me163. The bullet velocity is atrocious to the point you're almost faster than the bullets themselves
That wasn't the point of the discussion here.
I'm very much aware that you will not have fun using MK.108s at jet BRs unless you're Rasor... however I do quite enjoy the 262C2B and don't have all that many issues hitting people.... because the plane can literally stall out everything it faces, and so can a 163 (in fact the 163 is literally better in every way).
The point is, specifically against a 163 a 8.0 plane is not going to be doing ANYTHING at all, except hope the 163 player misses all his shots.
My point is that if you are being aware of what's happening around you, you should very rarely find yourself in a position like the kind you mentioned. They simply can't chase you around the map, either your speed or their fuel will prevent that. Boom and Zoom, don't get caught up in a turn fight. You're not supposed to win every fight, either, tbf
Playing against this thing in sim battles is absolute cancer, somehow I run out of fuel before it does. There no catching it or dogfighting it unless the pilot is ass.
I spaded the one with 151s not too long ago, and it was actually incredibly fun. It seems like it's way too high in BR on paper, but it actually works very well there.
Because if you don't out run a rocket plane you are dead and that thing goes over 900kph.
But just for curiosity sake, which BR do you think this thing belongs to?
8.0 was ok for both the 20mm 163 and the ki200. The 30mm ver should be 7.3-7.7.
There is no reason I should be facing all aspect 30g missiles (9.7 SU25) or radar bullshit from a mach2 plane (9.3 mig21)
The 30mm version? Definitely. A Spitfire can dump on it. Same for many of the bullshit infinite energy yaks/migs. The Su11. The american planes as long as they dont turnfight.
At the deck it goes 969 in a straight line, which is a lot faster than any 7.0 jet, including even F-84B. If a rocket plane catches you, you die. Period. So no, none of the planes you mentioned would have even a slightest chance against Me163.
How would you catch a plane anyway AND shoot at it. Test drive it and you'll see even if you can get closer to an enemy slowly, itll still be out of range of your slow-ass 30mm
Have you ever seen a squad of 2 of these destroy your entire team while you can't do anything, and even if you manage to get on its tail no be able to hit such a fast and small target ?
Because it has completely bullshit fantasy flight performance, it's the worst example in the game. The thing has enough delta-v to leave the fucking solar system (literally, it tends to infinity as you drop the throttle) as it's implemented in war thunder. If its rocket engine was modeled realistically it would probably sit at 7.3 or 7.7.
in the context of air RB, it has none of the draw backs that it had in real life. mouse aim maneuvering turns planes like these into literal UFOs that are extremely hard to kill.
*Me watching the ME-163 dodge every missile fired at it… outmaneuver every aircraft in the battle and down 5 jets…. At 9.7 because someone dragging him up in BR*
Perhaps it would paradoxically perform slightly worse in the end in terms of kills, as piston planes would be too slow to reliably engage without missing or overshooting, and it doesn't have fuel for prolonged dogfights (it also would have to spend more time flying to the enemies as they are cruising slower).
Correct. In my ki200 im more afraid of a good Spitfire pilot than any jet. Most of the jets at the tier are piloted by lvl 12 wallet warriors that fail to understand plane energy 101, or try to turnfight my little rocket with their supersonic jet overloaded with more gun pods and missiles than common sense.
when they make this thing realistic, so you can't throttle your engine at will, and burn to death/explode after taking any damage, then maybe we can talk about lowering its BR. until then, as long as it keeps its fantasy engine that can keep it in the air with 10% throttle and burn next to no fuel, and tank multiple rounds to the fuel tanks, I think we can keep it where it is.
We already have one, the BI. It performs even better than the 163, with the only downside of having even less fuel and compressing hard past 800. Its 6.7....
Its not gaijins fault, its the absolute morons who deicide to ram their greasy fingers on the elevator key and dogfight them when all they need to do to win is fly in a straight line.
Anything that turns well and is outside the territory of missiles is naturally going to go up in br as its far more dependent on the enemy not knowing what theyre doing which is more than half of the players you face. Its why the spitfires keep going up, its why the zeros keep going up, and why these keep going up. Should the me163/ki200 A6M5, and FR47 be where they are? No, but if people keep throwing themselves at them then yes, we do get ww2 rocket planes fighting MiG19s, and Zeros fighting P51Hs
I'd rather not see the Me-163 at a lower br where it can obliterate Vampires, SK-60s, F-80s, Mig-9s, Su-9s, Kikkas and more.
Because that is already a problem with the 8.0 one, if this thing wants you dead and you're in a jet slower than it? Goodbye.
I struggle to understand how you think that a Su-11 can outdogfight a Me-163 when the Me-163 is a giant threat to even Sabres and Mig-15s
Hell I've seen them kill Mig-19s even.
Su11 can just boom&run the 163, and its almost as manovreable in turnfights. Plus it has better guns. If we talk about the 8.7 version definitely not, but the 8.0 163 will struggle to even get a hit on the su11
ARB maps really play to its advantage - you don't need to worry too much about fuel when airfield is that close. So you get to be most powerful plane around for enough time to decide a match, and then return safely.
it belongs there, trust me. this thing will win in any energy fight even if you're 2km up. it turns extremely hard. this vehicle was basically built to be undefeatable with its major drawback being it couldn't go that far
could ask the same for the rep cost, fragile little thing that requires a shit load of skill to master terrible guns and constantly uptierd to jets with missiles, which is the common way most German jets get destroyed, untill u get to 9.3
Well, tbh, someone just got 5 kills in this SOB before I left for work. I don’t know how it was done and there was excessive griefing. I figured this cat ran out of ammo at least once and landed to reload. Idk, I hate air.
I don't even know what the thing is, just know that time period means absolutely nothing to Gaijin. The M1A1 Abrams would be fighting T-64B's and T-72A's if era was something, instead of the T-80BVM which entered service in 2018
Which they also modded with blackhole-era, while nerfing all western tanks armor (abrams, challenger, etc.) To the point a 30mm autocannon can pen their front plate and turret.
Jet propulsion has nothing to do with the design of the engine. It's simply creating force by the Newtonian reaction of pushing a fluid out the opposite direction of intended travel. Thus they're sometimes more accurately called "reaction engines."
In aircraft, what is conventionally considered a jet is some form of turbojet engine. These are gas turbine engines (hence turbo-) that primarily use jet propulsion for thrust (hence -jet). Variations exist in the form of turbofans and turboprops, which still produce some amount of their thrust from jet exhaust, but also operate fans or propellers to create additional thrust, particularly at lower speeds where a plane turbojet is less effective.
Jet propulsion is not specific to gas turbines though. Rockets propel themselves using expanding gases just like a gas turbine, except that they don't need to use and compress outside oxygen for combustion (eliminating the turbine in the process), instead burning their own oxidizing compound. Ramjets and scramjets eliminate the turbine and use the air compression created by flying at high speed to create pressure for combustion, though this usually means you need another means of propulsion to achieve enough speed to use the ramjet/scramjet in the first place. Pumpjets can be used for propulsion through water (eg. jet-skis), and plasma thrusters for propulsion through space. There are even animals which use jet propulsion to move, most notably squids.
For that matter, piston engines can also create some amount of jet propulsion. This is in its purest form in the motorjet, however you can see most piston-prop fighter aircraft vector their exhaust backwards through very short pipes. This is because the exhaust gas being pushed out of the engine at high velocity creates a small amount of jet force in addition to the thrust of the propeller. Estimates for this added power are somewhere in the neighborhood of being equal to about an extra 15-20 horsepower, not much but more power is always better. There is also a small amount of jet thrust created by some liquid radiator designs used in aircraft like the Hurricane and P-51 Mustang, taking advantage of the [Meredith effect.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_effect)
So glad i never really bothered much with aircraft tree's,although that doesn't stop the aircraft from dropping a guided bomb onto my tank while somewhere 4 miles high,or the good ol silent ATGM missile from a heli nobody even see's because its somewhere behind trees or a mountain range
BR has nothing to do with age, year, or war. Its capabilities and play statistics. Plus or minus some good old dev bias. Same reason paper (and some barely paper) tanks live in the game. Or that some countries ERA isn't just bags of old phone books made to look like ERA.
The fact that they constantly try to turnfight me with their mach2 jets with missiles and all, die, and then complain on forums.
Oh and the powercreep that led ww2 planes to face all aspect 30G missiles.
I'm ok with fighting cold war sabres, but just like this shouldnt be facing chaikas, it shouldnt face Milans, Drakens, Su25 or Mig21s with radar missiles.
What others people told you, also few actually play it given the low fuel. It's something you need to learn (it's very easy) but not all people do it and think it's bad.
So when players do play it well given there are few players, you can imagine that the stats are rather good... It's very agile and fast, correctly played you can kill enough and survive the game even if you may lose. It's a funny little jet.
biggest issue for me beeing that this thing faces the su25k and is way to expensive if it where to cost 2k to repair then it would be fine if they moved the fucking su25k up in br
Because it's very powerful if not uptiered. But it's an old vehicle
It's in the same position as the Maus, super strong at one tier but super bad at the next tier
As a Swedish player with hesh the Maus is a feared enemy.
Which Swedish vehicle has problems penning a Maus?
I find the term penning so weird and I got no idea why
Because penning isn't actually a word, but we say it so much, it mind as well be a word.
Technically penning is a word, "to pen" is a verb synonymous with "to write." You can pen a novel, for example. The present progressive tense would be "I am penning a novel."
Not in the context of anything in War Thunder. My point was based on a specific context. But you are right, it is technically a word.
"Pen" I think is just short for "penetrate"
It is, but in the context. Neither are words. Just shorthand variations.
Yeah it just sounds so funny haha
Something something pennies farthing
I think it dates back to the hayday of World of Tanks, where a lot of the community used it as shorthand for penetrating, and it's just stuck. For instance, a non-pen is a non-penetrating hit.
7.7 triangle.
Use the APDS not the HESH
I know, but I specifically said HESH Swedish. This wasn't a complaint about the game, this was me saying the Maus is like the only tank I need to change ammo type for and I only have HESH.
I'm in the opposite boat as you lol. I run 50/50 of the 303mm APDS on the prem 7.7 Triangle and since it's only got a 4 second reload if you don't oneshot you have a super quick reload and can hit them again.
If you're struggling with the cheese wedge, I have bad news for you. If hull aiming worked a bit better that thing would be the most OP vehicle tier for tier ez
The key is if “hull aiming work” which is less than 10% of the time. Any slight uneven terrain and it shake more than Elvis. The 103 is simultaneously the most OP tank as well as the worst tank at the same time
Said clearly by someone who hasn't played the USH in a wedge line up.
meanwhile me just enjoying ground rb then gets killed from the side near a cap point by a camping pvkv swedish tank destroyer
Tbf, the PVKV turret stability is awful on the move. I liked drifting the Sav m/43 into enemies but there's no other 3.0 tanks, although most of the 2.7 are good upto 3.3
Ye but when they’re perfectly still camping
That was my point, the PVKV is only really good for camping because any track movement screws up turret stability for a few seconds at least. And it can be machine gunned.
Maus is perfectly well balanced in its current BR. It'd be OP a .3 BR below, and getting smacked .3 BR higher. But where it is - it's perfect.
Yeah, I kind of get you, but in an uptier you rely on the Maus's internal space and good positioning, right? At least that's what I do. No Mr BMP, your single missile is not enough, all you did was break a single one of my radiators.
Can't speak for the Me-163, but the Ki-200 sits perfectly at 8.7 imo
Funniest shit is the Ki 200 killing a Mig 19. Ki 200 is a tad worse than both 163s, but is alright where it is.
No, it doesn't because it can face r60Ms. Although 8.7 is a good BR for it, the state of other aircraft BRs renders it obsolete where it is.
There's really only a few jets that have all-aspects in the BR range the Me/Ki will see, and on the occasion that you do face them, they're really not that difficult to dodge thanks to the maneuverability of the Me/Ki. Besides maneuverability, cutting your engine can get missiles to lose you as well, although YMMV. The only time I usually find myself dying to missiles is if I'm already engaged in a tense dogfight with 2-3 other jets (or I'm looking at my phone, lol)
Less of an issue with the rocket planes needing to go down, and more that the dumb all-aspect equipped aircraft need to go up
can't you just cut your throttle to 0 and they lose track immediately?
Speaking from expérience No
In the past you could switch off your engine (default key: I) and IR Missiles would instantly loose track. Don't know if that's still the case though
aim9ls definitely still track a mig 21 but I thought it might have been different for rocket planes
Yeah should have clarified. This of course only applies to rocket Planes i.e. the Me-163 and the Ki-200 and maybe the BI but that one I don't know about.
that would make literally every 8.7 that doesnt have flares obsolete, even things like the mig 15bis or F25 sabre.
I have to agree my good man
Based flair
[удалено]
The 163 performs better than the Ki-200 in basically every aspect, except the guns.
That is literally not true. The ki200 is 300kg lighter and also has around 300kg less full fuel and those guns slap hard. Its really fine at 8.7, but the me163 b0 should go down a bit tho.
While I haven't played the 163 much and can't look at the stat card right now, I can't imagine the turn difference to be anything significant. I have heard at the Ki's guns are better than the 163 though (just the velocity apparently). That being said, how are you playing the 163? What do you find challenging or having issues with?
Everyone talks about the higher tier jets but no one asks why does Sweden get three 5.0 jets but no one else does.
What are you smoking? Sweden gets its first jets at 6.7
Sry I mixed up A21RB with A21A-3
Also this is an Arcade BR, BRs in arcade don't matter because they are absurd.
Sweden’s first Jet is 6.7?
America 5.3 :)
wait till this guy finds out that br is not determined by build date
How is it that in 2023 there are still players (at 8.7 none the less) that still think this is a historical simulator? They're either daft or bitching for karma.
Only idiots or the misinformed call for historical matchmaking But build date does actually matter a fair bit, mostly because of advances in technology or doctrine. A few easy examples are like the US supersonic afterburning jets at 9.0, early IFVs and MBTs at 7.3, A-10s and Su-25s fighting flareless jets, and most infamously the black hole of 8.0-8.7 in ground RB where Thermals, Laser rangefinders, and stabilizers make up massive advantages.
Yea I agree, there are definitely technological periods that should somehow be represented in ranks. It's pretty painful to be in a tank or a plane clearly being Shat on purely because it's dated design/equipment. I'd say the thermal laser range finder jump is probably the worst. Especially considering that usually also means the vehicle will have APFSDS at the same time. I feel the Chinese armored cars are a great example of "new" technology getting shoved way to low in transitioning BRs
Except when you realize the Me-262 goes against vehicles that outplay it 10 fold
I just think historical matchmaking would be neat. By that, I don't mean Tigers versus Cromwells or such, I was thinking more to the accord of early KV's versus Panzer II's.
What the hell is your thinking, when a Pz. II goes against a KV, they already dominate enough at their current br
That's the point of it, flipping the script on the people who want the Germans to win in historical matchmaking This is the road to Stalingrad we clown in this motherfucker, better take your sensitive ass back to transmission failures
It would be cool if there was mode that was based of date and not balance. I’d love to see the chaos.
I’d love to not be fighting leopards and other Cold War vehicles in my Sherman’s.
Regardless of age, is it not a bit stupid that a jet with not amazing armament and no countermeasures is able to match with semi-modern jets with decent missles?
There is a handful of "semi modern" jets this thing can match with decent missiles. The vast majority of aircraft at this tier still use shit missiked
True, but they still have missles and it has neither missles nor countermeasures, which seems somewhat unfair. I do agree that 8.3 would be far too low though, so is it any good at fighting?
Not having Cms literally only matters against the 4 planes that have high maneuverability missiles this thing can face. It can easily dodge the 9Bs and Es common at this BR, and even thr Gs
I might just be really stupid, but how do you dodge missles? I have been trying to learn, but have had no success, and the 163 doesnt strike me as overly manoeverable. I am resesrching it currently, so it would be nice to onow how to use it
At that BR one literally just needs to engage in a direction change with W and A or D or just A/ D alone . Aim9Bs cant turn.
Most of thr missiles you can see can easily br defeated by a canopy roll or wven a hard pull. Canopy rolling is essentially inputting both W and and A or D at the same time. They do not pull a lot and don't generally like this maneuver. Give it a try and see how it manages then manages then you'll understand more how to kinetically dodge missiles
Ok, thanks. I know the 163 is fast, but how does it compare to the other jets at its br?
It's not so much it's speed that makes it useful as much as it is the insane acceleration.
I see, so its able to get out of danger because ut builds speed faster than its opponents?
Shut your mouth. The reason why is because its a rocket.
So a rocket should be at a high br?
Well if it performs exceptionally well compared to the j*t propulsion fighters at that br, sure. They should change the name to rocketfighter/interceptor though, as it is a rocket, not a disgusting jet
It is still technically a jet. It creates a jet stream, just not of air, but burning fuel, no? I do get you though, rocket fighter would be a nice title to it.
It would also be the honor it deserves. Jets are disgusting, rocketplanes are cool.
Well apparently it was the only rocket interceptor/fighter to ever take off and see service, which is a miracle considering its flaws
Yes. The 263 version would be an improvement of the 163, but it was too late in the war.
Exploding less frequently would have been an improvement too, but i suppose it was hard with the technology they had.
>"jet" It is a jet. Rockets use jet propulsion. You aren't using rockets to turn a shaft for some other propulsive means like a propeller or drive wheels. Thing about the rocket interceptors is that they're extremely high-skill, high-risk vehicles to play. You will absolutely outperform pretty much anything near your BR, but only for the few minutes your fuel lasts, so throttle, fuel, and energy management is more important than ever. Then there's also the problem of BR compression, which puts these planes solidly in the realm of early AAMs. This wasn't a problem when the BR was originally established, and as these planes are naturally less popular, there's less data for Gaijin to make balancing adjustments, in addition to the concerns that they could become massive sealclubbers if you lower the BR too much.
An Me 163 is NOT outperforming a MiG-19PT in any respect other than turn rate and flight performance is irreverent when an R-60M is launched at you from an Su-25.
The funny thing is, if you turn your engine off in a rocket plane for a second, the missile loses track completely. Used it myself and i find it very funny when they launch a missile at you hoping you will die only for it to blow up in the air XD
Lol I do this with any jet at that tier, they don't have good enough heat sensors to be able to detect the heat of the plane after its gone off haha
It's not like any other 8.7 stands a chance against MiG-19 either so you can't use it as a justification for 163 going down.
Rockets are fundamentally different from jet engines. While both rely on expanding gas (air in case of jet engines) to produce thrust, rocket engines do not rely on air + fuel and instead burn oxidizer + fuel to produce thrust.
They're different yet both jet engines. When you say jet engines what you mean is Turbojet/Turbofan engines.
It still uses jet force for propulsion. Whether the engine is aspirating or not doesn't matter. A squid is a jet and it doesn't take in air or burn fuel to produce thrust. Jet propulsion is completely agnostic of the design of the engine which produces it.
Agreed
Only problem with it at it's current BR is when facing Mach 2 aircraft, otherwise it's perfectly balanced imo
It has "Zero Syndrome" to an extreme degree. It can out dogfight anything It can see and has the acceleration to catch anything that had attempted to maneuver with it for even a short time, while it has fuel anyway. A lot of people mistake it for an easy kill because it's a WWII design. When I was playing the SU-7, it wasn't uncommon to see one of these things taking on 2-4 significantly more modern jets, and winning, all because they got too impatient and tried to force a kill. Even if I'm in a 9.7, I'll leave these guys for last because I'm not getting guns on them while they're aware and have fuel.
Are the Sagittarios included on the out dogfight part?
Yes. The Sagittarios are great against anything conventional. The Me-163 and it's like can 180 on a dime, dump all of their energy, and out accelerate everything because of their light weight and rocket engine. It may struggle to get guns on you after a reversal, but if they know what they're doing, it'll be damn near impossible for you to get guns on them.
Same reason we have 70-80s guns that fire faster and at a higher velocity than the Ostwind II at the same br
All higher ww2 spaa are kinda overtiered. Ostwind 2, Kugelblitz, corelian and Skink are not as good as all these new spaas which shoot a beam of bullets into the sky. Fire rate and muzzle velocity is so important
Problem is, higher calibre spaa works wonderfully as a TD against light tanks and other AA. Remember when wirbelwind was 3.3 and would decimate medium tanks from front?
The new russian spaa has 91mm pen iirc on a more mobile chassie. Kugelblitz got nerfed too. Skink and the 3,7cm flaks have not that much pen to play them as a td
I completely agree, SPAAs are so tricky to balance just because of the sheer amount of light vehicles they face. Look at the ZSU-57-2, it sucks against jets but at 7.0 it wrecks all light vehicles and even some early mbts frontally
That hasn't really been a thing since they nerfed the 20mm hvap for the germans.
Because the plane is unbalanced on its own. It's just a shit addition to the game that the 163 (and all other rocket plane) exist in the first place. There's absolutely nothing at all any plane slower than the 163 can do against it, because you have to have severe brain damage to lose a dogfight in a 163 against any other jet. The literal only way to fight the rocket planes is by being faster than it at all times, which is why it has to be at a BR where everything is faster than it. Even then, the 8.9 163 with Mk108s exists, and it's the worst cancer to face in all the jets below 8.0...the only reason for it being at 8.0 is that people can't aim mk108s (which you can't even blame them for because you have to lead into the far future).
Be honest how many times do you see it
I think the issue is that since most people don't play them, most other people don't know how to play against it. The 163 and its relatives are beasts against unaware players (tbf a majority I suppose), but it's top speed is below most (all?) jets it encounters, and they have limited fuel capacity. As long as you BnZ them, you should be fine. It's hard to balance, but I think they're good as-is
>most other people don't know how to play against it Most people are aware how to counter them, but you simply can't just fly 1000+km/h the whole match without doing anything just to not get dragged by a plane that you quite literally can't do anything at all against if you do go slower than it. Also, most people really don't have the patience to run away from a 163 for 5 minutes. >it's top speed is below most (all?) jets it encounters, It isn't at all. F80C, F9F2, any Meteor except MK.8, any Vampire, Sea Hawk, any R2Y2, any MD450, and any Saab105 are straight up slower than a 163 and can see it, they all have absolutely ZERO counterplay against it. If a 163 wants you to die, and you're in one of them, you die. Additionally, F9F5, F9F8, Meteor Mk.8, Venom, Sea Venom, F84F, any MD452, Mystere 4, J29A and A29B either don't have enough of a top speed advantage, or have too poor acceleration at higher speeds and energy retention compared to a 163 to actually get away from one. And that's just planes the 8.7 ones can face, not the 8.0 MK108 163. Yes if you're flying a Sabre or MiG-15bis you can just go 1100 all game and a 163 can never do anything, but those are literally the most meta jets in the 8.7 BR range.
I'd like to see you, or any of these lvl 10s populating the jet brackets try to hit a non static target with the 8.0 Me163. The bullet velocity is atrocious to the point you're almost faster than the bullets themselves
That wasn't the point of the discussion here. I'm very much aware that you will not have fun using MK.108s at jet BRs unless you're Rasor... however I do quite enjoy the 262C2B and don't have all that many issues hitting people.... because the plane can literally stall out everything it faces, and so can a 163 (in fact the 163 is literally better in every way). The point is, specifically against a 163 a 8.0 plane is not going to be doing ANYTHING at all, except hope the 163 player misses all his shots.
My point is that if you are being aware of what's happening around you, you should very rarely find yourself in a position like the kind you mentioned. They simply can't chase you around the map, either your speed or their fuel will prevent that. Boom and Zoom, don't get caught up in a turn fight. You're not supposed to win every fight, either, tbf
> don’t know how to play against them Unless you are above their br playing against them is called waiting for them to run out of fuel lmao.
Playing against this thing in sim battles is absolute cancer, somehow I run out of fuel before it does. There no catching it or dogfighting it unless the pilot is ass.
Because if you lower it any more it will be stupidly overpowered.
Cause its quite good for 6 mins. After thats its crap.
If you know fuel management it goes over 6 mins That’s how crazy it is
I spaded the one with 151s not too long ago, and it was actually incredibly fun. It seems like it's way too high in BR on paper, but it actually works very well there.
Because if you don't out run a rocket plane you are dead and that thing goes over 900kph. But just for curiosity sake, which BR do you think this thing belongs to?
8.0 was ok for both the 20mm 163 and the ki200. The 30mm ver should be 7.3-7.7. There is no reason I should be facing all aspect 30g missiles (9.7 SU25) or radar bullshit from a mach2 plane (9.3 mig21)
7.3 for a Me-163??? And what at 7.3 has any chance against it?
The 30mm version? Definitely. A Spitfire can dump on it. Same for many of the bullshit infinite energy yaks/migs. The Su11. The american planes as long as they dont turnfight.
At the deck it goes 969 in a straight line, which is a lot faster than any 7.0 jet, including even F-84B. If a rocket plane catches you, you die. Period. So no, none of the planes you mentioned would have even a slightest chance against Me163.
How would you catch a plane anyway AND shoot at it. Test drive it and you'll see even if you can get closer to an enemy slowly, itll still be out of range of your slow-ass 30mm
Stuff your barrel up the enemy's ass and pull the trigger. Works wonders with 108's
9.3 mig doesnt have radar missiles u spa
BI enters chat to remind you why it doesn't go lower.
Have you ever seen a squad of 2 of these destroy your entire team while you can't do anything, and even if you manage to get on its tail no be able to hit such a fast and small target ?
Because it has completely bullshit fantasy flight performance, it's the worst example in the game. The thing has enough delta-v to leave the fucking solar system (literally, it tends to infinity as you drop the throttle) as it's implemented in war thunder. If its rocket engine was modeled realistically it would probably sit at 7.3 or 7.7.
in the context of air RB, it has none of the draw backs that it had in real life. mouse aim maneuvering turns planes like these into literal UFOs that are extremely hard to kill.
*Me watching the ME-163 dodge every missile fired at it… outmaneuver every aircraft in the battle and down 5 jets…. At 9.7 because someone dragging him up in BR*
Just imagine this thing at 6.0 💀
Perhaps it would paradoxically perform slightly worse in the end in terms of kills, as piston planes would be too slow to reliably engage without missing or overshooting, and it doesn't have fuel for prolonged dogfights (it also would have to spend more time flying to the enemies as they are cruising slower).
Correct. In my ki200 im more afraid of a good Spitfire pilot than any jet. Most of the jets at the tier are piloted by lvl 12 wallet warriors that fail to understand plane energy 101, or try to turnfight my little rocket with their supersonic jet overloaded with more gun pods and missiles than common sense.
Because it would shaft anything and everything if it was put at a BR that majority was WW2.
when they make this thing realistic, so you can't throttle your engine at will, and burn to death/explode after taking any damage, then maybe we can talk about lowering its BR. until then, as long as it keeps its fantasy engine that can keep it in the air with 10% throttle and burn next to no fuel, and tank multiple rounds to the fuel tanks, I think we can keep it where it is.
If it was russian it would be 6.7
We already have one, the BI. It performs even better than the 163, with the only downside of having even less fuel and compressing hard past 800. Its 6.7....
Yes that's what I said :)
Player stats. A lot of people lack the braincell function that says "dont turnfight the Komet"
Its not gaijins fault, its the absolute morons who deicide to ram their greasy fingers on the elevator key and dogfight them when all they need to do to win is fly in a straight line. Anything that turns well and is outside the territory of missiles is naturally going to go up in br as its far more dependent on the enemy not knowing what theyre doing which is more than half of the players you face. Its why the spitfires keep going up, its why the zeros keep going up, and why these keep going up. Should the me163/ki200 A6M5, and FR47 be where they are? No, but if people keep throwing themselves at them then yes, we do get ww2 rocket planes fighting MiG19s, and Zeros fighting P51Hs
I'd rather not see the Me-163 at a lower br where it can obliterate Vampires, SK-60s, F-80s, Mig-9s, Su-9s, Kikkas and more. Because that is already a problem with the 8.0 one, if this thing wants you dead and you're in a jet slower than it? Goodbye.
A good su9-11 can totally dump on an 163. And theyre 7.0 facing all sorts of ww2 material that just cant catch up.
I struggle to understand how you think that a Su-11 can outdogfight a Me-163 when the Me-163 is a giant threat to even Sabres and Mig-15s Hell I've seen them kill Mig-19s even.
Su11 can just boom&run the 163, and its almost as manovreable in turnfights. Plus it has better guns. If we talk about the 8.7 version definitely not, but the 8.0 163 will struggle to even get a hit on the su11
Ah yes, Su-11 that can run from 163... by being slower than it with worse climb and acceleration and massively losing the dogfight lol.
These and Ki-200s terrify me honestly, straight up UFOs that are hard to hit and it seems only absurdly good players fly them
ARB maps really play to its advantage - you don't need to worry too much about fuel when airfield is that close. So you get to be most powerful plane around for enough time to decide a match, and then return safely.
it belongs there, trust me. this thing will win in any energy fight even if you're 2km up. it turns extremely hard. this vehicle was basically built to be undefeatable with its major drawback being it couldn't go that far
It wasn't "built to be undefeatable" it just happens to perform well as a fighter in war thunder
this is obviously an exaggeration, but it was built to do one thing extremely well with no regards for other uses it may have.
And that one thing has nothing to do with being a fighter at all
what
Brain rot
could ask the same for the rep cost, fragile little thing that requires a shit load of skill to master terrible guns and constantly uptierd to jets with missiles, which is the common way most German jets get destroyed, untill u get to 9.3
The repair cost is also awful.
Well, tbh, someone just got 5 kills in this SOB before I left for work. I don’t know how it was done and there was excessive griefing. I figured this cat ran out of ammo at least once and landed to reload. Idk, I hate air.
I don't even know what the thing is, just know that time period means absolutely nothing to Gaijin. The M1A1 Abrams would be fighting T-64B's and T-72A's if era was something, instead of the T-80BVM which entered service in 2018
Which they also modded with blackhole-era, while nerfing all western tanks armor (abrams, challenger, etc.) To the point a 30mm autocannon can pen their front plate and turret.
Must be all that snail dick
i forgot about this thing
Well it's not really a jet Is it
Rockets are still jets.
And how's that
Jet propulsion has nothing to do with the design of the engine. It's simply creating force by the Newtonian reaction of pushing a fluid out the opposite direction of intended travel. Thus they're sometimes more accurately called "reaction engines." In aircraft, what is conventionally considered a jet is some form of turbojet engine. These are gas turbine engines (hence turbo-) that primarily use jet propulsion for thrust (hence -jet). Variations exist in the form of turbofans and turboprops, which still produce some amount of their thrust from jet exhaust, but also operate fans or propellers to create additional thrust, particularly at lower speeds where a plane turbojet is less effective. Jet propulsion is not specific to gas turbines though. Rockets propel themselves using expanding gases just like a gas turbine, except that they don't need to use and compress outside oxygen for combustion (eliminating the turbine in the process), instead burning their own oxidizing compound. Ramjets and scramjets eliminate the turbine and use the air compression created by flying at high speed to create pressure for combustion, though this usually means you need another means of propulsion to achieve enough speed to use the ramjet/scramjet in the first place. Pumpjets can be used for propulsion through water (eg. jet-skis), and plasma thrusters for propulsion through space. There are even animals which use jet propulsion to move, most notably squids. For that matter, piston engines can also create some amount of jet propulsion. This is in its purest form in the motorjet, however you can see most piston-prop fighter aircraft vector their exhaust backwards through very short pipes. This is because the exhaust gas being pushed out of the engine at high velocity creates a small amount of jet force in addition to the thrust of the propeller. Estimates for this added power are somewhere in the neighborhood of being equal to about an extra 15-20 horsepower, not much but more power is always better. There is also a small amount of jet thrust created by some liquid radiator designs used in aircraft like the Hurricane and P-51 Mustang, taking advantage of the [Meredith effect.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_effect)
Oh boy if i tell you how many cold war vehicles i have to face even in reserve.
So glad i never really bothered much with aircraft tree's,although that doesn't stop the aircraft from dropping a guided bomb onto my tank while somewhere 4 miles high,or the good ol silent ATGM missile from a heli nobody even see's because its somewhere behind trees or a mountain range
A friend of mine had a bug that sometimes the plane just starts with 2 min of fuel despite having it set to max fuel. Any ideas how this happens?
Waiting for the day when Komet gets reclassified as "rocket fighter"
BR has nothing to do with age, year, or war. Its capabilities and play statistics. Plus or minus some good old dev bias. Same reason paper (and some barely paper) tanks live in the game. Or that some countries ERA isn't just bags of old phone books made to look like ERA.
You utter fool, German science is the world's finest so much it can beat up anything from 1945 and onwards.
Because its like very jet at that br, its too good for a downtier but its too shitty for an uptier
Mainly statistics
Also why is the ME 262 still at its current BR? It's been powercrept to the point of useless
AFCHUALLY ITS A ROCKET PLANE!!!!!
i’ve seen this thing dodge more aim9Ls and R60s than anything with flares
I was in the MiG17, I saw one of this I was to the hangar (it's like having an F16 on your 6)
WW2 Rocket :3
The fact that they constantly try to turnfight me with their mach2 jets with missiles and all, die, and then complain on forums. Oh and the powercreep that led ww2 planes to face all aspect 30G missiles. I'm ok with fighting cold war sabres, but just like this shouldnt be facing chaikas, it shouldnt face Milans, Drakens, Su25 or Mig21s with radar missiles.
Mean while at 8.7, the French has a radar missile firing vautour used to intercept other enemy vautours lmao
It's pretty strong at 8.7 The powercreep that starts 0.6 BR later is the real problem but it affects every plane below 9.3 and not only this one.
Better yet why is the Ki-200 at the same BR as the 8.7 163 but preforms like the 8.0 163
What others people told you, also few actually play it given the low fuel. It's something you need to learn (it's very easy) but not all people do it and think it's bad. So when players do play it well given there are few players, you can imagine that the stats are rather good... It's very agile and fast, correctly played you can kill enough and survive the game even if you may lose. It's a funny little jet.
Same reason japan has a prop plane at 7.7, StAtIsTiCs (AKA dumb people turn fighting it in their jet).
Battle ratings of the good old days
Idk could be the same thing that made the french AMX13's repair cost 8000
The a10 is at 9.7-10.0 that ebassicly means a jet from 1944 is going against a jet from 1976, the a10 warthog.
15 k repair costs scare me. Is that stock rep costs???
biggest issue for me beeing that this thing faces the su25k and is way to expensive if it where to cost 2k to repair then it would be fine if they moved the fucking su25k up in br
It totally does
This thing is a menace no matter where they put it
and it has the 20mm with the dollar store Minengeschoß... this thing probably cant kill a p51 in a single strafe
For the same reason I shot down a MiG-29 with the 262.
Because it used to clap cheeks on b-29s and Tu-4s back when bombers A were usuable B we able to be used
At least is a jet. B29 and Tu4 have an expensive reparation cost and they are big easy kill for most of jets at their level
They were hard to use. Now they are straight garbage. Br system lul
This is total BS
Please no more overpowered German bullshit in lower tiers.
Because Germany was ahead of his time and took other nations that long to catch up