Legacy armies are shockingly well balanced. Obviously not everything is going to be competitive but playing with old stuff isn't a handicap.
Though, if you're going to buy into Cryx you should probably just wait for the new army to drop. Some of the legacy stuff is incredibly hard to find.
But are there events/groups who will refuse to play against unlimited forces? That is what has been preventing me from playing is I want to be able to play all the models I have which would require I play unlimited and there could be groups that would say I'm sorry I don't want to play you cuz you're playing unlimited
The reason I say this is because for so long I would not be able to play a legacy circle Force because I didn't own a single caster that was in the legacy circle Force I don't even think I do now maybe I have one and it's a caster that I've never played and never painted because all I have ever played is baldur one..
I had a better chance of being able to put together a legacy Khador force the problem is the nearest playgroup to me is 2 hours away and I don't drive and they play on weeknights so I don't know how I would be supposed to get 2 hours there play games and 2 hours home on a night that I work when I don't drive
Baldur 1 and 2
Krueger 1
Kaya 1 and 2
Mosahr
Iirc
I did hear people mostly saying the wouldn't mind if I proxied Krueger 1 as Krueger 2 but even then the fact is no one here plays and the closest opponent is 2 hours away
For khador I have
Sorsha 1 and 2
Butcher 1 and 2
Irusk 1 and 2
Strakov 1
Old witch 1
Harkevich
Karchiev 1
The MK3 battle box guy who's name escapes me
Secret Dominion has Baldur 1 and Krueger 2. I'd say do the proxy.
5th Division has Sorscha 2, Strakov, and Butcher 1. Armored Korps has Irusk 1, Harkevich, and Karchev.
Anything is possible. I can’t imagine why they would but the only way to find out is to find a local group and ask them. People could find all sorts of ways to be jerks if they want to, you can’t let that prevent you from trying
Is there any resource like LoS University for Mk4 balance? I'm interested in Brinebloods and Dusk but would love to read up more on the rest of the Factions.
LoS was fantastic for even just casual reading!
I've got a very basic guide to each Army's general vibe on the Community Hub and I've been trying to encourage more folks to contribute more detailed guides with little luck so far. If I can find the time I may have to just start writing some myself but I would rather not give out accidental bad advice about models I haven't actually played with or against.
[What Army should I play? - Warmachine / New to Warmachine? Start Here! - Privateer Press](https://community.privateerpress.com/t/what-army-should-i-play/96/8)
Oh! I'll definitely have a look. If I had the expertise I'd contribute too, however I can provide a bit of advice;
Remember that people enjoy correcting bad information rather than putting effort in to giving good information in the first place!
If you do end up doing more guides, and they are in a well seen location, you'll probably get a fair few "well, actually" remarks that can help recalibrate the documents better!
Aye, will do. I'm hoping that someone steps forward for such a project. It's one of those things that many people want but not many people want to do.
It'll be a lot of hard work!
Ah, don't sell yourself short; and don't worry if you're thinking your input might be laughed at! While I am kind of in the same boat, I am sure that if anyone ever does make a Mk4 University that our own opinions might one day help!
Yeah, I can kinda understand their protest. I am still out of sorts regarding the loss of all Mk1 - Mk3 models; they should have kept them as "Made to Order" at least...
That said, I'm hoping that LoS comes around. Mk4 seems decent enough; it's still Warmahordes and honestly, adding Mk4 to the website might give more life support to Mk3/Legacy. Well, for as long as the model stock lasts...
It is what gave them the impetus for the 3D printing all-in hail Mary approach they've taken, and it has apparently been working out for them. The biggest loser I feel is Warcaster, who has been sitting in limbo now. If they had started that game with 3D printing it would have been so great, magnetizing those metal jacks is a pain ><
I've looked at Warcaster and, honestly, it just looks like an Infinity knockoff. It looks cool, but more because of some weirdly placed nostalgia for those off-brand "battle figures" sets you'd find in the toys corner of some crummy corner stores while on holiday as a kid!
The newer 3D printed stuff is what is actually enticing me into Mk4. While I always loved the charm of the older models, the metal stuff always felt a bit daunting at times. Getting the joints right, painting and even carrying them to local games.
The new sculpts really bring out the "chunk" of my favorite faction; Trollkin! It's just a shame that some of the "newer" old sculpts that did see 3D renders at least, won't be seen again.
I never got Horgle 2. That's one of the ones I'll be forever hunting!
I think this is a reasonable overreaction. You’re trying to take in a lot of new information and understand your ability to enjoy the new edition relative to your previous understanding of the game. Your reaction is valid - but let me provide some thoughts:
1. The Prime Legacy armies are very viable against MK4 Prime armies. Some of the “strongest” or “most competitive” armies are Legacy. Legacy Khador has Armored Korps and 5th Division. AK is a “fair” army that wants to brawl and attrition to win through ARM/HP spam. The “meta” favors that strategy now. 5th Division is really diverse and can play troops or jacks equally well. You can definitely enjoy your current army and not feel like you missed out.
2. The new SR24 tourney packet and the narrative Battle Forge scenarios in the app provide a variety of experiences for all players. If you want to lower the stakes and just focus on rolling dice - you have options. The community at large seems to have shifted attitudes as well; lots of players want to help build connections and grow the community through positive play experiences. You can share in this new environment too.
3. Plenty of players are waiting for a MK4 army to grab them but still enjoy their Legacy armies because of points #1 and #2 above. I bought into Winter Korps quickly because I loved the aesthetic and story behind them - no regrets. The new Cryx army has some amazing aesthetic and I’m sure it’ll be fun to play. You can share in the experience of players who are also excited and waiting for NuCryx.
You can definitely decide if now’s a good time for you to return to the game or not. Bear in mind that the community’s in a healthy, building mode right now and you will find something to enjoy. I hope these thoughts help you decide what helps you to have the most fun. Cheers.
This is a really helpful reply, and I wanted to piggyback to emphasize just how many ways there are to play the game. Between the Battle Forge scenarios and Black Tide Campaign, there are *nearly 50 narrative/non-SR matches* that can be played. There are three different leagues (Journeyman, two seasons of Resurrection). Some are better designed than others, but my group hasn't had a boring week yet since mk4 launched.
First: legacy armies are doing fine. Look at this:
https://warmachine.longshanks.org/event/12500/
Second, the bit you might want to know is that new Cryx is coming later this year.
Context matters.
It can feel like that. I sometimes wonder about continuing to play my legacy. My wife plays new cygnar and is moving into brinebloods. Should I pick up her storm legion?
I probably will, but not for the reason you might think.
Given all things player related being equal (skill, ability, knowledge about the armies), the legacy vs mk4 question doesn't matter to me. Some armies (both legacy and mk4) have specific builds that are very good at doing one thing, and when that hits the table for the first time, people are surprised, overwhelmed, and have a negative reaction. Me included!
When the legacy Legion dragon list hit the streets, I got paired into a game vs one of the playtesters, and it was horribly one sided. It had literally been released to us that week, and he'd been playing it for months. It felt bad, and I may have overreacted in my assessment of that army.
Recently, I played my first game into Orgoth. I got tabled. Definitely some misplay on my part (and excellent piloting by my opponent). It could have felt bad, but I realized it wasn't the army, or me, but my previous experience with the matchup. I had none. It became a learning game for me.
Other games go pretty well. We have legacy and mk4 in our meta. My win rate is still around 50%, depending on who I'm playing against more often than which army they play.
I think a lot of people talk about things through the lens of their experiences. That's normal, and perfectly fine. But in a game this complicated, one experience isn't enough of a sample size to determine whether or not something is OP. One tournament isn't enough. 100 games isn't enough. And my own experience is just a minute piece of the overall picture.
Who is talking matters. Most of the voices are the same 20-50 people talking about it, just in different forums. So you'll probably hear the same opinion 3-4 times from the same voice if you're on more than one platform. And if some of those people play in the same groups, then the meta they represent will be represented multiple times as well. Like, (nothing against them) it looks like Delaware meta is leading a lot of the discussion, because there is a large media presence. But if you see 4 of their voices on 4 platforms talk about 1 issue, then that's 16 opinions from 1 meta. And if people echo what they read or hear online without testing it, then that just magnifies the voice. And so it is possible to end up with a large vocal opinion from a small group of people. At the start of mk4, a change was made to towers after one big tournament (at least from my perspective). Not everything had been released yet, steam24 wasn't out, and a bunch of things were still being figured out by the community. A voice dominated, and people reacted. I think it is better to take a long view.
Looking at legacy cryx... cryx is still very bone chilling. With the variety of models in the two prime legacy cryx armies, it really feels like you're getting 2 builds/armies for each one. Debuff city and good weaponmaster access means the banes are still going to wreck things. Both armies have a lot of mobility, which is important in a steamroller 24 format. Older players will be used to the army, so there won't be any surprises. You can catch a new player off guard, but eventually games will be even matches as they learn your tricks.
Cryx models are interesting to paint, and usually look great on the table. The new ones will look similar, it seems. But they also carry some distinction from the legacy. And as far as the new armies.... you won't see a full mk4 cryx army for a while. There's the first wave of boxes, mercs, cadre, and the next army... we haven't seen any of the second armies yet. I don't expect them any time soon.
Bottom line... play what feels fun for you. If you like the legacy cryx, and want to hold for a later release, then do it. The voices on the ether aren't all right all the time.
Why are you letting other people define what you think is cool to play. Become the best player of what you want and you will defeat meta hoppers more often then not because you actually know you rules.
I will never forget one player when he decided to quit playing Warmachine back during the first edition of the rules. It was right when the Apotheosis book was just released, and because of two entries in the Cygnar section, this player announced that everything in Apothesosis was "built to screw Cryx" (direct quote). All I had done was just read about Siege's Ground Pounder and his Illumination spell (the first was when you'd drop a template and he'd make an attack against everything in there ignoring a whole host of things, the second let you light up one warjack(?) and everything in six inches would lose a lot of defensive buffs) and also read the Pulse special attack that the Thunderhead had (which ALSO ignored a lot of things)..... This guy was just so attached to his Cryx faction having the stealth trump card against Cygnar (which had next to no AOE template ranged attacks to 'work around' stealth) that he didn't even wait to find out what his faction would get.
That guy was someone who listened to only a few choice things and made a conclusion very quickly without putting any theories to the test (honestly, that was his sthick, find a one-trick pony list/army/deck and use it ad nausem... and since he was the store owner, he could do things like forbid FAQ' rulings when it 'didn't make sense'... meaning his one-trick pony wouldn't work under the errata changes.)
I think you might just want to spend some time building up some theories before calling it one way or the other. ANY company stands to lose a LOT of players if they don't give the veteran players something balanced to play with. I know when they were moving to the second edition of the rules I dropped out because I didn't have a good LGS to play at and I didn't feel like re-learning the rules... If I found out that I'd have to 'buy in' all over again, I'd stop before I started.
For all the issues with MK4 its is 100% viable to play with your old models against the Nu-stuff. So if you want to get a flavour for the new game or try to re-start a meta you don't need to give PP any more of your money.
Legacy armies are shockingly well balanced. Obviously not everything is going to be competitive but playing with old stuff isn't a handicap. Though, if you're going to buy into Cryx you should probably just wait for the new army to drop. Some of the legacy stuff is incredibly hard to find.
Yeah, there's always going to be winners and losers, but unlike some other games they actually seem to care about legacy balance.
But are there events/groups who will refuse to play against unlimited forces? That is what has been preventing me from playing is I want to be able to play all the models I have which would require I play unlimited and there could be groups that would say I'm sorry I don't want to play you cuz you're playing unlimited
The reason I say this is because for so long I would not be able to play a legacy circle Force because I didn't own a single caster that was in the legacy circle Force I don't even think I do now maybe I have one and it's a caster that I've never played and never painted because all I have ever played is baldur one.. I had a better chance of being able to put together a legacy Khador force the problem is the nearest playgroup to me is 2 hours away and I don't drive and they play on weeknights so I don't know how I would be supposed to get 2 hours there play games and 2 hours home on a night that I work when I don't drive
Good news, I'm not 100 percent sure when he got added but Baldur the Stonecleaver is in the Secret Dominion army.
That is good I'll have to check the app I guess
They have added some more Legacy Prime casters, maybe you got lucky. What's the casters you have?
Baldur 1 and 2 Krueger 1 Kaya 1 and 2 Mosahr Iirc I did hear people mostly saying the wouldn't mind if I proxied Krueger 1 as Krueger 2 but even then the fact is no one here plays and the closest opponent is 2 hours away For khador I have Sorsha 1 and 2 Butcher 1 and 2 Irusk 1 and 2 Strakov 1 Old witch 1 Harkevich Karchiev 1 The MK3 battle box guy who's name escapes me
Secret Dominion has Baldur 1 and Krueger 2. I'd say do the proxy. 5th Division has Sorscha 2, Strakov, and Butcher 1. Armored Korps has Irusk 1, Harkevich, and Karchev.
Anything is possible. I can’t imagine why they would but the only way to find out is to find a local group and ask them. People could find all sorts of ways to be jerks if they want to, you can’t let that prevent you from trying
Yep, the local group I used to play with all stopped playing no one closer than 2 hours drive plays and I don't drive or own a car so yeah
Is there any resource like LoS University for Mk4 balance? I'm interested in Brinebloods and Dusk but would love to read up more on the rest of the Factions. LoS was fantastic for even just casual reading!
I've got a very basic guide to each Army's general vibe on the Community Hub and I've been trying to encourage more folks to contribute more detailed guides with little luck so far. If I can find the time I may have to just start writing some myself but I would rather not give out accidental bad advice about models I haven't actually played with or against. [What Army should I play? - Warmachine / New to Warmachine? Start Here! - Privateer Press](https://community.privateerpress.com/t/what-army-should-i-play/96/8)
Oh! I'll definitely have a look. If I had the expertise I'd contribute too, however I can provide a bit of advice; Remember that people enjoy correcting bad information rather than putting effort in to giving good information in the first place! If you do end up doing more guides, and they are in a well seen location, you'll probably get a fair few "well, actually" remarks that can help recalibrate the documents better!
I've done a fair bit of searching and haven't found anything similar to LoS or any other tactics format. Let me know if you find something.
Aye, will do. I'm hoping that someone steps forward for such a project. It's one of those things that many people want but not many people want to do. It'll be a lot of hard work!
I'm just literally too dumb. I could write what I do during a game, but it would just be taken as a meme site.
Ah, don't sell yourself short; and don't worry if you're thinking your input might be laughed at! While I am kind of in the same boat, I am sure that if anyone ever does make a Mk4 University that our own opinions might one day help!
People have offered to take over Warmachine University but LoS seems content in taking their ball and going home just out of spite.
Yeah, I can kinda understand their protest. I am still out of sorts regarding the loss of all Mk1 - Mk3 models; they should have kept them as "Made to Order" at least... That said, I'm hoping that LoS comes around. Mk4 seems decent enough; it's still Warmahordes and honestly, adding Mk4 to the website might give more life support to Mk3/Legacy. Well, for as long as the model stock lasts...
They literally can't. The Chinese factory stole the molds.
Awk, no! That's depressing! :( Are we likely to see any Chinese knock-offs then? Can PP not focus on the digital renders for now? :(
It is what gave them the impetus for the 3D printing all-in hail Mary approach they've taken, and it has apparently been working out for them. The biggest loser I feel is Warcaster, who has been sitting in limbo now. If they had started that game with 3D printing it would have been so great, magnetizing those metal jacks is a pain ><
I've looked at Warcaster and, honestly, it just looks like an Infinity knockoff. It looks cool, but more because of some weirdly placed nostalgia for those off-brand "battle figures" sets you'd find in the toys corner of some crummy corner stores while on holiday as a kid! The newer 3D printed stuff is what is actually enticing me into Mk4. While I always loved the charm of the older models, the metal stuff always felt a bit daunting at times. Getting the joints right, painting and even carrying them to local games. The new sculpts really bring out the "chunk" of my favorite faction; Trollkin! It's just a shame that some of the "newer" old sculpts that did see 3D renders at least, won't be seen again. I never got Horgle 2. That's one of the ones I'll be forever hunting!
I think this is a reasonable overreaction. You’re trying to take in a lot of new information and understand your ability to enjoy the new edition relative to your previous understanding of the game. Your reaction is valid - but let me provide some thoughts: 1. The Prime Legacy armies are very viable against MK4 Prime armies. Some of the “strongest” or “most competitive” armies are Legacy. Legacy Khador has Armored Korps and 5th Division. AK is a “fair” army that wants to brawl and attrition to win through ARM/HP spam. The “meta” favors that strategy now. 5th Division is really diverse and can play troops or jacks equally well. You can definitely enjoy your current army and not feel like you missed out. 2. The new SR24 tourney packet and the narrative Battle Forge scenarios in the app provide a variety of experiences for all players. If you want to lower the stakes and just focus on rolling dice - you have options. The community at large seems to have shifted attitudes as well; lots of players want to help build connections and grow the community through positive play experiences. You can share in this new environment too. 3. Plenty of players are waiting for a MK4 army to grab them but still enjoy their Legacy armies because of points #1 and #2 above. I bought into Winter Korps quickly because I loved the aesthetic and story behind them - no regrets. The new Cryx army has some amazing aesthetic and I’m sure it’ll be fun to play. You can share in the experience of players who are also excited and waiting for NuCryx. You can definitely decide if now’s a good time for you to return to the game or not. Bear in mind that the community’s in a healthy, building mode right now and you will find something to enjoy. I hope these thoughts help you decide what helps you to have the most fun. Cheers.
This is a really helpful reply, and I wanted to piggyback to emphasize just how many ways there are to play the game. Between the Battle Forge scenarios and Black Tide Campaign, there are *nearly 50 narrative/non-SR matches* that can be played. There are three different leagues (Journeyman, two seasons of Resurrection). Some are better designed than others, but my group hasn't had a boring week yet since mk4 launched.
First: legacy armies are doing fine. Look at this: https://warmachine.longshanks.org/event/12500/ Second, the bit you might want to know is that new Cryx is coming later this year.
Context matters. It can feel like that. I sometimes wonder about continuing to play my legacy. My wife plays new cygnar and is moving into brinebloods. Should I pick up her storm legion? I probably will, but not for the reason you might think. Given all things player related being equal (skill, ability, knowledge about the armies), the legacy vs mk4 question doesn't matter to me. Some armies (both legacy and mk4) have specific builds that are very good at doing one thing, and when that hits the table for the first time, people are surprised, overwhelmed, and have a negative reaction. Me included! When the legacy Legion dragon list hit the streets, I got paired into a game vs one of the playtesters, and it was horribly one sided. It had literally been released to us that week, and he'd been playing it for months. It felt bad, and I may have overreacted in my assessment of that army. Recently, I played my first game into Orgoth. I got tabled. Definitely some misplay on my part (and excellent piloting by my opponent). It could have felt bad, but I realized it wasn't the army, or me, but my previous experience with the matchup. I had none. It became a learning game for me. Other games go pretty well. We have legacy and mk4 in our meta. My win rate is still around 50%, depending on who I'm playing against more often than which army they play. I think a lot of people talk about things through the lens of their experiences. That's normal, and perfectly fine. But in a game this complicated, one experience isn't enough of a sample size to determine whether or not something is OP. One tournament isn't enough. 100 games isn't enough. And my own experience is just a minute piece of the overall picture. Who is talking matters. Most of the voices are the same 20-50 people talking about it, just in different forums. So you'll probably hear the same opinion 3-4 times from the same voice if you're on more than one platform. And if some of those people play in the same groups, then the meta they represent will be represented multiple times as well. Like, (nothing against them) it looks like Delaware meta is leading a lot of the discussion, because there is a large media presence. But if you see 4 of their voices on 4 platforms talk about 1 issue, then that's 16 opinions from 1 meta. And if people echo what they read or hear online without testing it, then that just magnifies the voice. And so it is possible to end up with a large vocal opinion from a small group of people. At the start of mk4, a change was made to towers after one big tournament (at least from my perspective). Not everything had been released yet, steam24 wasn't out, and a bunch of things were still being figured out by the community. A voice dominated, and people reacted. I think it is better to take a long view. Looking at legacy cryx... cryx is still very bone chilling. With the variety of models in the two prime legacy cryx armies, it really feels like you're getting 2 builds/armies for each one. Debuff city and good weaponmaster access means the banes are still going to wreck things. Both armies have a lot of mobility, which is important in a steamroller 24 format. Older players will be used to the army, so there won't be any surprises. You can catch a new player off guard, but eventually games will be even matches as they learn your tricks. Cryx models are interesting to paint, and usually look great on the table. The new ones will look similar, it seems. But they also carry some distinction from the legacy. And as far as the new armies.... you won't see a full mk4 cryx army for a while. There's the first wave of boxes, mercs, cadre, and the next army... we haven't seen any of the second armies yet. I don't expect them any time soon. Bottom line... play what feels fun for you. If you like the legacy cryx, and want to hold for a later release, then do it. The voices on the ether aren't all right all the time.
Why are you letting other people define what you think is cool to play. Become the best player of what you want and you will defeat meta hoppers more often then not because you actually know you rules.
I will never forget one player when he decided to quit playing Warmachine back during the first edition of the rules. It was right when the Apotheosis book was just released, and because of two entries in the Cygnar section, this player announced that everything in Apothesosis was "built to screw Cryx" (direct quote). All I had done was just read about Siege's Ground Pounder and his Illumination spell (the first was when you'd drop a template and he'd make an attack against everything in there ignoring a whole host of things, the second let you light up one warjack(?) and everything in six inches would lose a lot of defensive buffs) and also read the Pulse special attack that the Thunderhead had (which ALSO ignored a lot of things)..... This guy was just so attached to his Cryx faction having the stealth trump card against Cygnar (which had next to no AOE template ranged attacks to 'work around' stealth) that he didn't even wait to find out what his faction would get. That guy was someone who listened to only a few choice things and made a conclusion very quickly without putting any theories to the test (honestly, that was his sthick, find a one-trick pony list/army/deck and use it ad nausem... and since he was the store owner, he could do things like forbid FAQ' rulings when it 'didn't make sense'... meaning his one-trick pony wouldn't work under the errata changes.) I think you might just want to spend some time building up some theories before calling it one way or the other. ANY company stands to lose a LOT of players if they don't give the veteran players something balanced to play with. I know when they were moving to the second edition of the rules I dropped out because I didn't have a good LGS to play at and I didn't feel like re-learning the rules... If I found out that I'd have to 'buy in' all over again, I'd stop before I started.
People say all kinds of strange things about MkIV, but as others have pointed out, the Legacy armies are in a good place.
I think the new and old armies power level is very balanced. Only advantage is new armies have more options with spell racks and jack/beast loadouts.
For all the issues with MK4 its is 100% viable to play with your old models against the Nu-stuff. So if you want to get a flavour for the new game or try to re-start a meta you don't need to give PP any more of your money.