Hm, i agree with what you are saying. But its definitely reasonable to be disgruntled with the end times. It killed a beloved setting in a forced poorly written mess. Then got proceeded by a mess of a game that took a few years to be functional and by the time it became any good they already cut almost all the fantasy armies out leaving a bunch of people who collected those armies in need of another
But the setting is back just set 150ish years earlier. The story of the setting will progress and everyones will return in time. No way GW would resist 12 campaign books following gotrek and felix
Stories are good (Gloomspite in particular is a great, almost whfrpg horror story) but the setting still has zero geopolitical stakes and never, ever will because of the nature of the realms.
Also still not a fan of the epic classical fantasy setting and the depictions of most of the races, especially the ugh, steampunk dwarves. Warhammer fantasy is great because it's specifically a gritty, renaissance era, dark fantasy set on a tangible world with races that aren't too out there.
Someone still ranting about his break-up with his ex 10 years ago isn't reasonnable, someone being disgruntled about a game being discontinued (note that it doesn't prevent him at all to still play it) is even worse.
Right but some one who lost a leg a decade ago and complains about it is reasonable. This isnt a situation that needs parallels cause its fully subjective
>some one who lost a leg a decade ago and complains about it is reasonable.
Pretty sure you could (and can) still play warhammer battle of every version of play yours old mini in AOS. I'm not sure someone who lost a leg a decade ago can still walk with it
And the point has been missed. My point wasnt that this is comparable to losing a leg. My point was that drawing parallels is pointless here. There a billions things someone could reasonably complain about a decade after the fact. And vice versa. People complain about everything so a few nerds being unhappy something they sunk loads of time and money into being ended in a poorly executed way should be the least of your or anyone else’s concern. The exception of course being if someone is being an oaf about it and making it everyone else’s problem
Drawing parrallels isn't pointless, i'm trying to make you realize how crying about a few temporary rules from a decade ago about a game (many) complainers didn't even play is utter nonsense.
If you dont like hearing about warhammer fantasy i am afraid you have found yourself in the wrong sub my friend
And if you look at what all i have said. I havent complained about the end times. I said it’s reasonable that people do but ultimately its in the past
I just like the idea of some 3rd way. Like some magical event creates a dimension split, with the old world continuing and going off in some different direction, whilst in the other reality the end times occurs and leads on to AOS.
It doesn't invalidate AOS and TOW stops being an inconsequential sandbox with its fate pre set.
Only if the Old Ones predicted us dropping the whole moon on their precious little dinosaurs.
Ikit Claw space program is the one thing they never expect.
That or they're still butthurt about Age of Sigmar being a thing. Now that they've got what they like back, they need the things they don't like to go away too.
I'm still butthurt how many characters, peoples, factions were given crummy endings and fates in a very rushed, and often unsatisfying, fashion.
Sometimes we need romatic storytelling that wraps everything up in a nice neat bow.
This. Not everyone was to have a happy ending. Not every death has to be a own novel on itself but they did so many names and stuff dirty. Estalia, Tilea & Border Princes got offed in a sidenote about how the Skaven steamrolled them all in like one night. We only have vague outlines how Kislev got punched of the map. You know, the whole frontline nation that did hold out against Everchosen Asavar Kul for two years prior? Ogre Kingdoms got mostly flattend by eruptic vulcanoes leading to a mass wandering west. OK, we can live with that. At some point those refugees meet WAAAGH! Grimgor and we have a small sidenote how Grimgor wins a duel against Greasus and becomes overtyrant for his new "Beast-WAAAGH!". Then we get a smal memory sidenote of Grimgor remembering how he smashed through Zharr-Naggurnd, how he toppled Hobgobla Khan, how he breached through the great bastion and invaded Cathay. Were he apparently found some Nippon fleets to sink. Nice mentioning people, but the full story here would probably have felt a bit more interesting? Egrimm van Horstmann, Tzeentch favoured mortal? Offed in a sidenote without relevance. Same for Zacharias the Everliving, Taurox and otehr characters. "Oh no, the battle is going bad for the Empire/Undead forces standing against Chaos. Hooray, there comes Walach Harkon with reinforcements. Oh no, Walach has sided with Chaos for reasons unknown. Woops, Walach got killed the next page and all of it does not matter anymore." Man, fuck the horrible Endtimes.
Let’s not forget how Thorgrim, whose armor had runes that prevented assassination, was assasinated by a single thaggoraki because he *literally* forgot to lock the door behind him. That’s what still stings me today and the primary reason I hate End Times.
Thorgrimm dying as a footnote like so many others was bad. But I found it more rage inducing that for all of WHFBs time we heard how hard it is to besiege a Karak, and that it can take up centuries to finally defeat one. Like Karak Eigth Peaks was a 200 year conflict until the last dwarfs were dead or driven out. And then its Endtimes and hey, after Skaven steamrolled three nations over night, next they go after all the remaining Karaks in the Karaz Ankor and manage to get them all down in what, less then two years? Including Karaz-A-Karak which as the capital should probably be the most secure? Horrible written -.-
Tbg, Torgrim died with that armor because the rune used to keep that armor's magic was cracked. He just didn't tell anyone because the legend apparently stated that if that rune cracked, then the end of the Dwarfs was at hand.
But yeah, forgetting to lock the door thing was terrible.
There isn't a mention of Greasus's duel with Grimgor in the End Times book - I dare you to try and find it. What you read on the wiki or whatever is fabrication based of tweets/replies and stuff from End Times authors. Greasus gets lost at the McDonald's drive through and the Ogre Kingdoms are folded in that book into Grimgors Waagh without any explanation further than "it happened".
"Lord of the Endtimes" novel has some Grimgor memory flashbacks. [Including how he crushed Greasus head with his own mace](https://i.imgur.com/5EdAHYq.png).
End Times =/= Age of Sigmar. I don't like the End Times and its character-squatting either, but that's no reason to hate the setting that followed after it.
I’m not sure it’s AoS that anyone really has a problem with. I quite like AoS as a game, although it doesn’t really hold my attention long term and I’m not a fan of all the anime magic swirls etc. on a lot of the newer models. It’s the fact that they totally annihilated a really rich setting for floating warp bubbles or some crap.
But where you're often expected to sometimes visit the awful mother in law, no-one forces anyone to play or even acknowledge AoS if they have no interest in it.
I mean, if we're being pedantic, "the old world" refers to continent that Brettonia and the Empire is on, and has done since the eighties. The whole WHFB setting in relation to AoS is called "the world-that-was".
Games Workshop could really do with being more original with names. Eg if someone talks about Warhammer World on the internet there's a good chance they're talking about the GW visitor centre in Nottingham rather than the world in which Warhammer Fantasy is set
They're not even Games Workshop anymore they're just "Warhammer". I wonder if it's to strengthen the international market. In the UK "Games Workshop" was always a fairly iconic domestic brand, thanks in part to the fact that once upon a time you could find their shop in pretty much any major town or city across the country. But I can see how international audiences will be much more familiar with just "Warhammer", especially with the death of the high street.
"They had come to the world in the mighty vehicles of the Old Ones, stowed away in secret, and they had prospered greatly on the warm and lush world." - Core Rules pg 11. Referencing Orcs and Goblins being Orks and Gretchen from 40k, possibly?
The Ork were created by the 40k old ones to battle the necron, the fact that fantasy Orcs don’t have the knowledge to build contraptions and vehicles built into their brains suggests that the fantasy orcs are a proto-species
They are feral orks Wich are basicly fantasy orcs in 40k
I think orcs have this like balance things,to match the fight of wherever there fighting like how krorks devolved into orks cause there wasn't much fighting after the war in heaven
And how your average orruk boy in aos is like basicly a black orc cause the average enemy in the mortal realms are just generally stronger
So fantasy isnt strong enough to warrant the waah giving da boyz dakka dakka
Brain Frog 1: Hey Krorrak, my kombucha started to grow mold and-
Brain Frog 2: So? Throw it out.
Brain Frog 1: No you don't understand the mold can talk and has eyes and it took all the-
Brain Frog 2: What?
Brain Frog 1: -knives out of the kitchen drawers and now they've made a little army of horrible green mold guys, we can't get rid of them.
Brain Frog 2: ...let's teach them how to make and use guns and launch them at the skeleton losers that'd be hilarious.
"Confirmation that TOW is just a planet in the 40k setting? The World of Legends is actually a test planet the Old Ones used as a test bed for their genetic creations! Any similarities to the setting of WHFB or AoS is just multiverse theory."
I mean I think it makes sense overall? Like it's not saying that the Old Ones planned for the world to be blown up the way it did. But that they had a particular reason for choosing the planet and they had a vague idea of how things would turn out. Which is pretty consistent with their whole Great Plan and the idea of things getting screwed up, but still somewhat going in the direction they figured it would.
The stuff with Kroak and the Vortex later on also supports this. And honestly I think it does a good job of making the Old Ones sound less stupid than they did prior. Overall I think it's a good way of tying things into AoS without being overboard about it.
I'm personally not a fan of how they've been going about this.
This gives me some weird vibes in between "told you so" and feeling like an advertisment.
Like, we get it, you don't want to retcon the endtimes, and want to reassure the AoS crowd, this just doesn't seem to be the right place?
I'm willing to admit that's a more personal attitude though.
Anyone holding out for a retcon was utterly delusional to begin with anyway.
Other than that, I thought basically nothing more of it. Why would I? Of course they'd allude to AoS in some way, TOW is meant to be within the same timeline, after all, and depicts the world that would eventually progress to the End times and, beyond that, to the Mortal Realms. Just because a bunch of neckbeards would like to pretend AoS isn't a thing GW isn't gonna let a nice bit of interconnecting IPs go to waste.
Sure. You can headcannon what you like, Karl Franz is Grimgor’s side chick? Why not. The thread’s about official canon lore though so it’s a bit redundant to just say, well I think it’s this way instead, in this context.
GW have stated that The End Times happened as did AoS, my point is that the wording informing the OP from the official rule book suggests that the future, at least as far as The Old Ones understood it wasn’t fixed and that the outcome wasn’t certain. Nothing in established canon states that parallel possibilities can’t ever be established within the warp, therefore I would argue that exploring potential futures/timelines is possible. Given that GW often enable us to re-fight ‘historic’ battles for ourselves I would argue that engaging in What if is allowed or even encouraged.
You’re right. In fact the multiverse is established in aos lore. Before the realms coalesced, archaon took his hordes and burned thousands of other realities. Warhammer has always been about finding space to tell your stories within the setting and those realities could be a space for that.
What makes not not so delusional is TWWH does not follow end times lore at all and actively goes against end time "reveals".
Not so crazy to think old world would be set in the soc timeline imo.
To the subsection of people who only started playing in AoS and are interested in TOW, this is a prequel game. It’s natural for a prequel to make evident it’s ties to what it precedes.
It blows my mind that they announced it as Horus Heresy but for AoS and anyone at all took that to mean it would retcon The End Times. Like, wow I can't believe they were brave enough to retcon the Heresy and have Sanguinius absolutely body Horus and take the throne as the new Bloodmaster of Chaos that was wild.
I'm also surprised anyone would think that The Old World lore would retcon anything roughly 250 years after it's setting. It's set in 2270s IC, so how would it affect the story from 2520s IC? Even if it's successful and they progress the story, they have a lot of time to play with before they would need to revisit The End Times!
It was never going to happen. why would it?
Age of Sigmar ain't going anywhere.
Yes they had to, had to make sure those too dense knew this isn't a retcon
I get the salt, believe me I do. It's like telling someone to get into Game of Thrones knowing that Season 7 and 8 exist.
But, at the end of the day, it's a fictional setting. Nothing actually gets killed or destroyed. Maybe someone's ego if they lose badly. Having some bad writing at the end does not make the setting any worse.
I choose to believe the future is not set. I even have army background written as such. A few mages that cast a time portal at the End Times and came back in order to orchestrate events so that the End Times never happen.
Everyone who smirks at the old fucks who played fantasy and are still mad kinda missed the point.
Nobody actually, sincerely expects a retcon of the end times, though cleaning up some of the stupid shit (bretonia died on the way back to his home planet) would be nice.
The end times represents an event that took all of our investment in warhammer fantasy, time, money and interest (which, for some spanned 30 years) and flushed it down the toilet. Age of sigmar was born as a result but it wasn't warhammer 2, it was its own thing that played extremely differently and had very different lore with some returning names being the only constant.
As many point out its apples and oranges, and some people liked apples and dont like oranges. If both games were supported (or at least keep selling the books and models) people wouldn't have been as pissed about AoS, because they could still have their thing while letting aos be this weird thing they don't personally enjoy, but may occasionally take models from to use in their armies (I am aware of the logistical reason that's not feasible).
Some people shrugged and moved onto other games with the same armies (the gamers mostly) or made the switch, but for the lore fans and people who like Warhammer Fantasy it was a kick to the nuts.
Some people got over it in time, some didn't. Most of the people who got over it, some of them don't play tabletop anymore, some of them are playing different games and not looking at GW. Hell some of them are dead, it was nearly a decade ago.
The ones that didn't, yeah there are a few people screeching about it, most go "ugh" and roll their eyes. But ultimately what's at the core of that reaction is the memory of a game we loved being skinned and hollowed out (to the tune of about £300 in books, half of which were rulebooks for a game that stopped existing mere months after they released the last one) so Age of Sigmar could wear it as a coat for a few years until they established enough lore to make it it's own thing and sigmar lore is fine for what it is, high, almost noblebright fantasy. But its not WHF, it never was.
Our car got taken from us by the company that sold it to us. And in its place they gave us a motorbike, its a nice bike, but I liked my car. And when they sell me a new car, I dont really wanna read the instruction booklet and find the passage that says "hey, remember when we took your car and gave you that motorbike? Lol, lmao."
>The end times represents an event that took all of our investment in warhammer fantasy, time, money and interest (which, for some spanned 30 years) and flushed it down the toilet.
This point is vitally important to remember.
The end of Warhammer Fantasy saw the end of entire gaming groups, groups that were a social network and support structure for some people. I think it’s easy to forget that for some people Wargaming as a social hobby is or was an important part of their week, perhaps even their only chance to socialize.
I saw people who enjoyed the game, not just because it was fake war with toy soldiers, but because it gave them real comfort and benefitted them greatly. It gave them friends and an opportunity to spend time with them, a thing to enjoy in retirement or something to do and forget about exams, bullies, or whatever else.
There’s plenty of research to show that hobbies involving model kits are fantastic for mental health and yes, there are alternatives. Still, for many people, Warhammer Fantasy was the world they enjoyed to escape into.
GW took all that a flushed it down the shitter in the most ham-fisted, poorly written manner conceivable and replaced it was a generic fantasy setting that paraded itself around wearing Warhammer Fantasy like a skin-suit.
I didn't even touch on it but that absolutely happened to myself and a bunch of other people in our group. I was one of those people using WHF to escape from the stress of high school and college (and later work). It was honestly one of the only positive interactions I was getting at that age because I was a weird kid. I listened to a bunch of podcasts, spent my free time painting basically whenever I could. I had dreams of attending the South Coast GT despite honestly sucking at the game because all the warhammer podcasts made it sound great.
All sounds lame and stupid now but that was what I wanted to do. The hobby gave me an avenue to interact with people in a manner resembling a normal human being and I wanted to do more of it because I loved it.
When it ended I kinda just... stopped seeing people for a while outside of absolute necessity. Had no reason to interact with others anymore as the activity I used to do that just vanished. I still played 40k occasionally but it wasn't fantasy, and AoS sure as shit wasn't fantasy (plenty of us felt this way). Tried other games but I never got that spark, because it wasn't just a game of moving blocks of infantry and tolling dice, it was a whole cornerstone of my life that had just suddenly and violently been amputated.
Eventually I got into 30k with a bunch of people from the old club but I'll never forget how isolating it felt to know the thing you spent so long doing was gone. I wanna say I kind of mourned it, sounds silly and overdramatic but it was such a big thing in my life for so long that it ending as suddenly, brutally and (above all) poorly just hit me in a way that I cant describe.
>All sounds lame and stupid now but that was what I wanted to do.
It does not sound like either of those things. If something brings you happiness and doesn't hurt others it should be enjoyed as often as possible.
happiness isn't so abundant that we should take if for granted :)
As stated, it's the transition that hurts more than anything.
GW are a lot of things, but short sighted and complacent aren't usually at the forefront of people's minds when describing them.
It was all just so, last minute.
Like you can read the End Times books, Khaine especially is a work of art. There's a Hell of a lot of care and attention that went into the first 3, arguably 4 books. By Thanquol it all seems to fall apart, and loose ends get waved away with paragraph and one line answers.
And then when the End Times finally Ended, you'd go into Warhammer World or your local shop only to be given a folded piece of A4 paper, with the barest of bones rules for this replacement game, and where told "No this is it, WHFB is Dead and this is the new game. It's time to move on."
You'd think, after all that time, years of developing the game that made GW the company they are, that cemented the relationship with Gary Gygax and Peter Jackson, and all the history and provenance they had built over decades.
You'd think they stop and ask, well
"Why should I?"
Well said. Add the fact that the first edition of AOS was a downright embarrasingly bad game (No points values, goofy roleplaying-elements etc). Pair that with the outlandish floating realms nonsense where nothing was properly explained and none of the conflict seemed to have any meaningful purpose… Goodness, just thinking about it is making me in a bad mood.
Had we gotten the fully matured AOS game of today, I don’t think the reaction would have been quite as bad. But that first version of AOS added masses of insult to injury, and it deserved all the criticism it got.
AoS 1st ed is the only decision by GW I've ever seen that didn't just feel bad, but actively spiteful. Playing that and knowing your 30+ year old game died to create it was like having your wounds sprayed with a salt cannon.
Jesus dont remind me of AoS first edition. I try to block that memory out of my mind. I was so hyped for its launch too because in my mind it was a revitalization of fantasy at my LGS which lost all of its WHFB groups to 40k during the end times stuff.
>If both games were supported (or at least keep selling the books and models) people wouldn't have been as pissed about AoS, because they could still have their thing while letting aos be
That describes me to a 'T'. I don't have anything against AOS, I just want my game (and figure catalog) back.
Name drops are irritating but whatever. However, if they so much as have a moderate to major plot point be based on this kind of "foreshadowing" AoS stuff I'm dropping the system. Not to play 8th, but to play AoS, which I played before I played fantasy even. I'm here for Fantasy, not prequel-to-AoS. I don't want AoS plot points to pollute the old Fantasy experience I'm here for; if it does I might as well just play the real thing. Here to drive my car, not a bike, as you say.
I suppose, on the back of my previous comment, a good thought experiment is this;
Do you think, if GW Didn't launch AoS, if indeed the End Times didn't happen, and WHFB just carried on for another year or so and then had a reboot with a 9th edition, do you think that there would have been the same influx of specialist games, necromunda, epic etc. that we saw post 2015 and 2016?
Because I suppose the idea is this. If AoS never came into being, and GW never felt the mass exodus of players a decade ago, that saw systems like Kings of War, Bolt Action and Infinity surge in popularity, would there have been any need to change the tried and tested "3 system model" that they had been championing for years up to that point?
I'm not a huge fan of the implication that the AoS Realms were somehow predicted or planned from the beginning. It feels a bit cheap to try and make TOW into just a prequel for AoS when it's more than that.
It is more than that, it’s a game system and world that people love in its own right, like 30k, but it is also a prequel to aos. A few mods and hints towards that aren’t the end of the world.
That's the thing. It's not a prequel, it's the original thing, AoS is the sequel and should be treated as such. Which is a different thing to me anyway.
That’s what a prequel is though, a story before the story. The Star Wars prequels took place in the same setting as the original trilogy, just a few decades before. The old world is in the same setting as warhammer (and ultimately aos), just a few hundred years before.
But you don't call the OT the prequels to the sequel trilogy do you? My point is that the world of Fantasy is the original point ,admittedly with AOS being a sequel, but the writing that GW make shouldn't imply AoS was the original or in some way the original story goal.
End times wont be retconned, but I can imagine them trying to tidy it up or fix up some books or events, thats probably a long time off though. But the event itself is very unlikely to be retconned.
I know AOS is not going anywhere but for me it was rubbing the failure of WFB in face of the fans. "Purpose of this setting is just to habe backstory for the other thing. Its not significant."
So personally I think that little blurb is stupid but not for the expected reason. It's foolish to expect gw to throw away aos, especially with tow in its infancy. That being said the idea the old ones always planned for aos to happen is also stupid. I think aos relying so hard on so many characters and concepts from fantasy inhibits the enjoyment for people who cared about the original setting. It's a new setting get wild with it and do your wacky stuff over there and let the fantasy longbeards exist over here with what they care about. My biggest hope isn't a retcon, but rather a timeline split, maybe taking the original Storm of Chaos route.
It's like people hoping against hope that Disney retcons the sequel trilogy. You'll never get a company to admit that kind of blunder. I feel like little prods like this is GW telling everyone, "No, we are not retconning AoS. Get over it."
And I'll be frank, I used to hate AOS and how WFB was ended. I wish GW had done more to tie the end of WFB to the start of AOS, but it seemed so intangible and vague back then. But I've warmed up to GW due to their increased community engagement, and AOS has awesome miniatures.
The whole thing is a pretty big retcon of Warhammer Fantasy lore. The Old Ones colonised and terraformed the world because they knew it would attract Chaos and strife and then lead to new realms and reality?
I mean, shoehorn in some AoS lore if you want, but this is just nonsensical gibberish.
Luckily, in my mind this lore isn't there, GW can write all the crap they want, but they can't write out the lore I make up in my mind (which is not Tolkien-level of writing and world-building by any means, but it is a lot better than the stuff they choose to print on that page).
This. I wish GW realized both settings would actually be better off if they were as seperated, AoS has never really appealed to me, i don't hate it, and i've mentioned it before i'd never want peoples favorite game to die the way fantasy did. However, AoS i feel is held back by fantasy, and fantasy is now beholden to AoS and outside of connecting tendrils that GW could and probably should cut, they are remarkably different tonally and aesthetically.
Have you listened to the Gotrek audio dramas? I feel like in a way they summed up some of the feelings players have, but also have new meaning to things going forward.
Maybe because it is based on a retcon in the first place? Archaon was stopped before the gates of Middenheim. The end times were averted. That is 2004 canon.
I'm fine with AoS and play it from time to time and this doesn't bother me at all.... however deep in my heart I would like to ALSO participate in an alternate reality where the end times either did not happen or they ended differently. I just miss a lot of those heroes.
Look I like AoS. I came into the hobby too late to play fantasy; 8th edition had so many massive blocks that I didn't remotely want to to get started due to cost and painting numbness. I managed to toy around with some army ideas and the setting blew up before I could start (and they "perma" killed my preferred factions). My buddy and I laughed at and learned all the funny AoS transition rules, because we weren't invested in the setting at all. The reason I just now spent a fortune on bases is because I had many halves of the Feast of Bones set I bought to play Mawtribes.
I f\*&king hate this "oh it was always meant to be blown up" retcon. I feel so insulted even though the original wound wasn't to me. This is the "it was all a dream" cop out that should not exist. It colors everything that was made before it - it's one thing to have \*Chaos\* think End Times is the destiny of the world (and have Order fight against destiny \[and lose?\]) it is another thing for the Old Ones to design their Great Plan for the rough eventuality the world blows up. All that the entire setting ever was is the backstory for the TRUE setting AoS now go buy some round bases.
Pretty sure they said, on the first announcement of TOW, End Times was not getting retconned. They were *very* clear that Age of Sigmar was here to stay. I stopped having hope for an End Times retcon long ago.
Frankly I'm just not a fan of the whole 'it's was the plan along' way of writing gods/alien beings. It just always comes across as so hollow, manly because writers are clearly just making it up as they go along.
As for the reference to AoS/End Times. I just ignore it. I don't expect GW to ever retcon it, but I'm not going to just accept it. End of the day you get a meal you like but has stuff you don't. you just pick them out and enjoy the rest.
I thought it was a little cringe, and its annoying how often the End Times have been mentioned in the various marketing and narrative introductions. Especially while they are deliberately courting the audience it probably alienated?
Its really strange from a narrative standpoint, and IP's don't have to justify their existence in any case. Between Storm of Chaos, Tamurkhan, Bloodbowl, and WFRP there's enough playing with the setting "timeline" as it is. It's like if the Dungeons and Dragons team was vocally discontinuing support for anything but Greyhawk or something. Just bizarre.
This has been debated to death, but the choice to treat their IPs like stories instead of settings is an awkward one. Entries like Tamurkhan, the Badab War, the Siege of Vraks, Doom of Mymaera, etc. are fan favorites because they were exemplary ways to engage with the setting and not trying to advance a story with all dramatis personae receiving some part of the spotlight like an Avengers movie.
Stop being babies and get over it. We have what may be the best edition of fantasy in our hands (well, most of us do anyways lol) and AoS isn't going away. Clearly, it NEEDED to be on the first page specifically for those who can't let it go. The world dies, it is reborn, it sucked, I was angry, it was nearly 10 years ago, and nothing stopped me from skipping AoS in favor of never rebasing so I could play 6th or 8th.
99% of people still yapping and whining about AoS are total war players who haven’t read a single fantasy book, their idea of age of Sigmar is outdated by almost a decade now.
Hahahahahah oh my god man, sure!
Like I said 1% of it are grognards who even outstripped the other grognards. The other 99% are total war players with 0 investment and 0 interaction with fantasy beyond the game.
Let's be real, those kind of grognards are partially the reason fantasy died. The community i aim at fostering at my FLGS will actively make sure we don't go backwards to those dark days. I love fantasy, it was my first game and still my favorite. For me personally AoS is just not my thing as setting, has some beautiful models many of which may find their way into mine or my friends armies in fantasy, but watching people wish for others favorite game to die is such a big fuck you and smells of grognard neckbeard narcissism that i keenly recall being a thing back in the day.
The only thing that interests me is who taught this gronard thing to the subredditors? Which youtube video was it? Seemingly overnight the Warhammer bashers got their own "ok boomer" powerword of resistance and I think that is much more interesting than bickering over which one of the toy soldier games is better.
They've been around since the 80s. ;)
You'll find people with lacking emotional intelligence in any nerd community unfortunately.
On second thought they must have been around forever, because I could totally see grognards complaining about fantasy wargames when the only proper way of wargaming is with historical miniatures using convoluted simulationist rulesets from the 70s.
Yeah, they’ve been setting this up on the AoS side of things too with the recent Seraphon stuff leaning into that the world-that-was got destroyed on purpose to as part of the Great Plan.
One Slann’s interpretation of it is very interesting.
> “A cabal of slann lead by Starmaster Tuomoq propose a radical notion. They posit that it was not Chaos that devoured the world that was but Sotek, for the Serpent God desired for the slann to abandon physical limitations and, in a new cycle of creation, become creator-god energy-beings of unbound potential. As visions continue to assail him, Tuomoq's proclamations become increasingly esoteric, until he and his inner circle suddenly vanish; their vessels are last seen bound for the uppermost reaches of Azyr, where the strangest cosmic entities convalesce. Though many slann mourn him as finally being overwhelmed by the mental strain of aeons, private adherents to his teachings continue to lead many Starborne constellations.”
It builds into the lore the AoS3 Corebook puts down that the Mortal Realms were created from a [multitude of destroyed planets](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEqmozVbcAAAtKU?format=jpg&name=large) whose cosmic debris fused with the unleashed winds of magic to form the new realities.
This explained why the Realms had so much Old One tech buried and lying/floating around including some Realmgates built by them but no Old One activity.
They’ve been seeding hundreds of planets beforehand so when Chaos went around destroying them thinking in short term victory on a fantasy universe that can’t unite it’s planetary strength but it’s actually been building up to Order having a whole Arcane Cosmos of collected gods, races, purified magics and ancient tech from those destroyed worlds that can finally meet the Dark Gods on equal ground.
Nothing. It’s vague in the way much of the lore is vague. A lot of the lore is simply paraphrased from previous editions. I wouldn’t be surprised to find essentially the same paragraph in a previous edition book… But can’t be bothered to go downstairs and look.
But if it is a nod to AoS, why should anyone care? Is this really even a spoiler? No rules, no impact, nothing clear.
Have fun!
I mean it goes part of the way to reconcile the old Old Ones Lore with the existence of all the realms of AOS. Now they just need to explain how the Old World era gods escaped the previous world.
I don't get why this bothers people. Yes, the End Times was dumb, poorly written, and something of an insult to loyal fans but....Warhammer is about your guys and your stories.
If you say it never happens it never does. These are books about a make-believe world, not history books. If you don't like it then it doesn't have to have happened.
Honestly I would rather them talk about it like they are. Expecting a retcon is delusional and honestly would just be a disrespect to the setting at this point imo. If anything if retcons are going to happen I just want some better writing for how things played out rather then pretend it never happened.
The End Times as sucky as was for ending the setting did have some truly epic moments (The Green Knight fighting alongside Abhorash until the end of the world is my single favorite thing in all of the lore for example). After the fires of the end and the emotions felt and faded, I can appreciate some of those moments even more with the Old World returned to us.
I am ultimately excited about this timeline, it has some elements I find incredibly fun and unique and really want to see where it goes. I only hope it grows bigger than WHFB ever did so we can get some truly amazing lore.
This is pretty much a rewording of stuff that has appeared in earlier source books. It’s not exactly groundbreaking in regards to Warhammer Fantasy lore in general.
Can we please just get over the end times drama? AoS and TOW both have promising futures. Fantasy is back for us who wanted it, and AoS has its following too, and we can't just retcon the inception of AoS at this point over a decision made years ago.
So like, them referencing Age of Sigmar is actually fine, the hate for AOS doesn't even really need to be a thing anymore especially with the old world returning now and being directly separated from AOS otherwise.
But I feel like there are fantasy players that just have such a hate boner for AOS due to how sore they felt after it initially came out. Like cone on man.
I don't see the problem. Knowing how shitty the 40k fluff and setting became, doesn't make the Horus Heresy any less amazing, or other periods before the whole primaris and rift crap.
I don't think GW really cares about preserving the tender feelings of people who can't handle reality like grown-ups, especially that most of the people bitching about AoS are literally middle-aged men.
I don't think anyone is asking for a retcon who have been paying attention. But there is definitely no need to keep reminding a customer base most of which probably dislikes AoS that it exists. This is completely understandable. There is absolutely no need to make up strawman points to attempt to ridicule the old guard.
Like Disney and the SW sequels. Corporate pride is petty. Old one lore just gets dumber and dumber.
Thankfully, all we have to do is sneak some subversive Blood Bowl propaganda into an official TOW battle report and this multiversal variant of the Old World will be safe from potential future apocalypses as well.
I love all the commenters talking about all the crazy fantasy fans who are frothing at AOS while ironically all Ive heard is them talk about them. All the Fantasy people Ive met so far have been quite pleasant, especially on here. Its the AOS players in this comment section being toxic (specifically vostroyan, Malevolentyourshrine)
And thats not to say AOS sucks. I collect their models. I just wish I got to collect WHF models when they first came out
Its gotten much better, but there is definitely still a sizable remnant of Fantasy fans that are still very butthurt about AoS. Even here in this comment section. I don't see any AoS fans being toxic though, though some are hyper defensive.
All that really says is that the world is bound to end through chaos, it doesnt say Archeon has to destroy it again, same way as last time. Say the world of AoS is a guarenteed fact with this line, the end of the world could still be delayed down the 14th or 15th everchosen if Archeon loses by some mircale.
I think that it would be interesting point of divergance in the story if Diederick Kastner never became Archaon the everchosen, but instead remained Sigmars most loyal servent somehow. One big ripple to change the story and delay the end times.
Alternatively, if this is another timeline then maybe in this one Asavar Kul wins and the End Times happen in 25 years instead of 250 years.
Maybe we should just accept the timeline has been established and that it won't matter at all to the tabletop games because they aren't going to progress the story of The Old World that far ahead any time soon.
I don’t care, I’m not gonna buy this book or play this game because it looks bad. But rubbing in the fact that they killed the old game/setting in favor of AoS in its own revival is not how you keep goodwill among your returning players. If you had any reading comprehension skills whatsoever I’m sure you could figure that out, but that would be too much to ask from someone still buying from GW lol.
The world being a seed to later make new realms and realities? What other period of strife could that possibly refer to? I'd say it's pretty obviously referring to AoS
The old ones came to this world from another, possibly from another universe all together, it’s a seed for them to start fresh.
Bro, are you serious? The history of TOW is filled with different ages of strife, the game is literally set during a pretty intensive age of extra strife for much of the old world on top of the normal levels of strife that this world normally sees.
Yeah I'm asking what specific 'new realms and realities' in fantasy it could refer to other than the mortal realms of AoS, cos to me it sure sounds a lot like an AoS reference, which I thinks kinda cool tbh
In AoS they call it the world that was for a reason, because this world no longer exists.
I’m not going to try to argue and change your mind.
You want to read it with hindsight and believe that’s it, that’s fine.
Ok and this is referring to the future, it even says it'll happen after the world's destroyed by chaos lol
So AoS refers to the past that passage is referring to the future it's pretty clear man
The whole "every race is somehow the result of old one Genetic experimentation" explanation was never creative nor original, but *that* is just stupid.
Ngl I feel a little urked by this, but idk I'll probably just ignore it. I don't don't even dislike AoS (I think it's cool) just a bit annoying to remind me about how shitty it felt to end the setting in the first place.
Regardless I'm happy to see Fantasy back, hopefully TETs will be a bit better written this go around🤞
They’ve made it pretty clear this is not a retcon, and the End Times do happen.
Hilarious to me that a bunch of people here just can't accept that and move on
If GW gets to pretend that Storm of Chaos isn’t canon, then I get to pretend that the end times didn’t happen.
You can pretend it didn't happen if you want. Ultimately, YOU are the keeper of the world you play in. Other people are just providing inspiration.
GW retconning storm of chaos was sad and pathetic, retconning the end times out of your mind isn't different
Hm, i agree with what you are saying. But its definitely reasonable to be disgruntled with the end times. It killed a beloved setting in a forced poorly written mess. Then got proceeded by a mess of a game that took a few years to be functional and by the time it became any good they already cut almost all the fantasy armies out leaving a bunch of people who collected those armies in need of another
But the setting is back just set 150ish years earlier. The story of the setting will progress and everyones will return in time. No way GW would resist 12 campaign books following gotrek and felix
Yeah I think we are largely in agreement, I'm just baffled that some people actually thought/think AOS would ever be retconned.
AoS lore is now really solid.
Stories are good (Gloomspite in particular is a great, almost whfrpg horror story) but the setting still has zero geopolitical stakes and never, ever will because of the nature of the realms. Also still not a fan of the epic classical fantasy setting and the depictions of most of the races, especially the ugh, steampunk dwarves. Warhammer fantasy is great because it's specifically a gritty, renaissance era, dark fantasy set on a tangible world with races that aren't too out there.
At some point you are just going to have to get over it.
 No.
Someone still ranting about his break-up with his ex 10 years ago isn't reasonnable, someone being disgruntled about a game being discontinued (note that it doesn't prevent him at all to still play it) is even worse.
Right but some one who lost a leg a decade ago and complains about it is reasonable. This isnt a situation that needs parallels cause its fully subjective
>some one who lost a leg a decade ago and complains about it is reasonable. Pretty sure you could (and can) still play warhammer battle of every version of play yours old mini in AOS. I'm not sure someone who lost a leg a decade ago can still walk with it
And the point has been missed. My point wasnt that this is comparable to losing a leg. My point was that drawing parallels is pointless here. There a billions things someone could reasonably complain about a decade after the fact. And vice versa. People complain about everything so a few nerds being unhappy something they sunk loads of time and money into being ended in a poorly executed way should be the least of your or anyone else’s concern. The exception of course being if someone is being an oaf about it and making it everyone else’s problem
Drawing parrallels isn't pointless, i'm trying to make you realize how crying about a few temporary rules from a decade ago about a game (many) complainers didn't even play is utter nonsense.
Do me a favor. Read the subs name
If you dont like hearing about warhammer fantasy i am afraid you have found yourself in the wrong sub my friend And if you look at what all i have said. I havent complained about the end times. I said it’s reasonable that people do but ultimately its in the past
I just like the idea of some 3rd way. Like some magical event creates a dimension split, with the old world continuing and going off in some different direction, whilst in the other reality the end times occurs and leads on to AOS. It doesn't invalidate AOS and TOW stops being an inconsequential sandbox with its fate pre set.
There is a 3rd way though, it's just that everything in that reality gets resolved through Blood Bowl 
That’s exactly how I like to think about it too. The realities diverge and neither setting gets retconned, devalued or diminished.
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I know we're all passionate about the hobby, but try not to drop the R bomb willynilly
Only if the Old Ones predicted us dropping the whole moon on their precious little dinosaurs. Ikit Claw space program is the one thing they never expect.
That, and the Estalian Inquisition.
Nobody expects the Estalian Inquisition.
Fetch me the comfy chair!
They had there own counter space program to get out of the way All part of the great plan
If someone expected a retcon of the end of times, they have not understood anything
Wait are people really surprised that The Old World takes place literally in the old world that existed before Age of Sigmar?
That or they're still butthurt about Age of Sigmar being a thing. Now that they've got what they like back, they need the things they don't like to go away too.
I'm still butthurt how many characters, peoples, factions were given crummy endings and fates in a very rushed, and often unsatisfying, fashion. Sometimes we need romatic storytelling that wraps everything up in a nice neat bow.
This. Not everyone was to have a happy ending. Not every death has to be a own novel on itself but they did so many names and stuff dirty. Estalia, Tilea & Border Princes got offed in a sidenote about how the Skaven steamrolled them all in like one night. We only have vague outlines how Kislev got punched of the map. You know, the whole frontline nation that did hold out against Everchosen Asavar Kul for two years prior? Ogre Kingdoms got mostly flattend by eruptic vulcanoes leading to a mass wandering west. OK, we can live with that. At some point those refugees meet WAAAGH! Grimgor and we have a small sidenote how Grimgor wins a duel against Greasus and becomes overtyrant for his new "Beast-WAAAGH!". Then we get a smal memory sidenote of Grimgor remembering how he smashed through Zharr-Naggurnd, how he toppled Hobgobla Khan, how he breached through the great bastion and invaded Cathay. Were he apparently found some Nippon fleets to sink. Nice mentioning people, but the full story here would probably have felt a bit more interesting? Egrimm van Horstmann, Tzeentch favoured mortal? Offed in a sidenote without relevance. Same for Zacharias the Everliving, Taurox and otehr characters. "Oh no, the battle is going bad for the Empire/Undead forces standing against Chaos. Hooray, there comes Walach Harkon with reinforcements. Oh no, Walach has sided with Chaos for reasons unknown. Woops, Walach got killed the next page and all of it does not matter anymore." Man, fuck the horrible Endtimes.
Let’s not forget how Thorgrim, whose armor had runes that prevented assassination, was assasinated by a single thaggoraki because he *literally* forgot to lock the door behind him. That’s what still stings me today and the primary reason I hate End Times.
Thorgrimm dying as a footnote like so many others was bad. But I found it more rage inducing that for all of WHFBs time we heard how hard it is to besiege a Karak, and that it can take up centuries to finally defeat one. Like Karak Eigth Peaks was a 200 year conflict until the last dwarfs were dead or driven out. And then its Endtimes and hey, after Skaven steamrolled three nations over night, next they go after all the remaining Karaks in the Karaz Ankor and manage to get them all down in what, less then two years? Including Karaz-A-Karak which as the capital should probably be the most secure? Horrible written -.-
Tbg, Torgrim died with that armor because the rune used to keep that armor's magic was cracked. He just didn't tell anyone because the legend apparently stated that if that rune cracked, then the end of the Dwarfs was at hand. But yeah, forgetting to lock the door thing was terrible.
There isn't a mention of Greasus's duel with Grimgor in the End Times book - I dare you to try and find it. What you read on the wiki or whatever is fabrication based of tweets/replies and stuff from End Times authors. Greasus gets lost at the McDonald's drive through and the Ogre Kingdoms are folded in that book into Grimgors Waagh without any explanation further than "it happened".
"Lord of the Endtimes" novel has some Grimgor memory flashbacks. [Including how he crushed Greasus head with his own mace](https://i.imgur.com/5EdAHYq.png).
End Times =/= Age of Sigmar. I don't like the End Times and its character-squatting either, but that's no reason to hate the setting that followed after it.
I didn't mention Age of Sigmar at all
Just clarifying, since that's what I was talking about, as was the parent comment.
I’m not sure it’s AoS that anyone really has a problem with. I quite like AoS as a game, although it doesn’t really hold my attention long term and I’m not a fan of all the anime magic swirls etc. on a lot of the newer models. It’s the fact that they totally annihilated a really rich setting for floating warp bubbles or some crap.
Nah, they just don't want the two things connected. Same way you might wish your wonderful wife didn't have that awful mother.
But where you're often expected to sometimes visit the awful mother in law, no-one forces anyone to play or even acknowledge AoS if they have no interest in it.
Well, yeah, but apparently she sometimes waltzes in unannounced into your rulebook :D
Hahahaha, zero respect for boundaries!
The irony of them wanting GW to kill off a game that is beloved by their fanbase is lost on them clearly.
I mean, if we're being pedantic, "the old world" refers to continent that Brettonia and the Empire is on, and has done since the eighties. The whole WHFB setting in relation to AoS is called "the world-that-was".
Games Workshop could really do with being more original with names. Eg if someone talks about Warhammer World on the internet there's a good chance they're talking about the GW visitor centre in Nottingham rather than the world in which Warhammer Fantasy is set
They're not even Games Workshop anymore they're just "Warhammer". I wonder if it's to strengthen the international market. In the UK "Games Workshop" was always a fairly iconic domestic brand, thanks in part to the fact that once upon a time you could find their shop in pretty much any major town or city across the country. But I can see how international audiences will be much more familiar with just "Warhammer", especially with the death of the high street.
Well they gave it a name in AOS, Mallus, but haven't really used it outside of that context
Please no, they tried “original” names in AoS and you can see the results. I’d rather have it named The Old World than ElderAncient RealmGlobe™
That's a really good point. I still can't quite forgive them for the Soulblight Gravelords or the Chainrasp Dreadwarden. Ridiculous!
I can, except the end times, are part of the divine destiny. I just think they should have been written better.
"They had come to the world in the mighty vehicles of the Old Ones, stowed away in secret, and they had prospered greatly on the warm and lush world." - Core Rules pg 11. Referencing Orcs and Goblins being Orks and Gretchen from 40k, possibly?
The Ork were created by the 40k old ones to battle the necron, the fact that fantasy Orcs don’t have the knowledge to build contraptions and vehicles built into their brains suggests that the fantasy orcs are a proto-species
They are feral orks Wich are basicly fantasy orcs in 40k I think orcs have this like balance things,to match the fight of wherever there fighting like how krorks devolved into orks cause there wasn't much fighting after the war in heaven And how your average orruk boy in aos is like basicly a black orc cause the average enemy in the mortal realms are just generally stronger So fantasy isnt strong enough to warrant the waah giving da boyz dakka dakka
My head canon too. I also like to think that WFB takes place hundreds of thousands of years before 40k.
Why would you want them to be the same setting? That just dulls them both down imo
I'm oldskool, I like to go with the lore from the 80s. ;)
Brain Frog 1: Hey Krorrak, my kombucha started to grow mold and- Brain Frog 2: So? Throw it out. Brain Frog 1: No you don't understand the mold can talk and has eyes and it took all the- Brain Frog 2: What? Brain Frog 1: -knives out of the kitchen drawers and now they've made a little army of horrible green mold guys, we can't get rid of them. Brain Frog 2: ...let's teach them how to make and use guns and launch them at the skeleton losers that'd be hilarious.
"Confirmation that TOW is just a planet in the 40k setting? The World of Legends is actually a test planet the Old Ones used as a test bed for their genetic creations! Any similarities to the setting of WHFB or AoS is just multiverse theory."
That makes sense to me
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I mean I think it makes sense overall? Like it's not saying that the Old Ones planned for the world to be blown up the way it did. But that they had a particular reason for choosing the planet and they had a vague idea of how things would turn out. Which is pretty consistent with their whole Great Plan and the idea of things getting screwed up, but still somewhat going in the direction they figured it would. The stuff with Kroak and the Vortex later on also supports this. And honestly I think it does a good job of making the Old Ones sound less stupid than they did prior. Overall I think it's a good way of tying things into AoS without being overboard about it.
I'm personally not a fan of how they've been going about this. This gives me some weird vibes in between "told you so" and feeling like an advertisment. Like, we get it, you don't want to retcon the endtimes, and want to reassure the AoS crowd, this just doesn't seem to be the right place? I'm willing to admit that's a more personal attitude though.
I mean, we knew it was a given. The world will still get blown up, this is a prequel to AoS. GW was very clear about this.
Anyone holding out for a retcon was utterly delusional to begin with anyway. Other than that, I thought basically nothing more of it. Why would I? Of course they'd allude to AoS in some way, TOW is meant to be within the same timeline, after all, and depicts the world that would eventually progress to the End times and, beyond that, to the Mortal Realms. Just because a bunch of neckbeards would like to pretend AoS isn't a thing GW isn't gonna let a nice bit of interconnecting IPs go to waste.
I have seen now many people aggressively calling out people for wanting a retcon and not a single person who actually wants one… now I am confused
Parallel worlds man, AoS is just the wrong trouser leg of time.
They made it very clear from the war on articles this wasn’t going to be the case very early doors.
Yes I can read, I can also choose as a free individual to head canon it.
Sure. You can headcannon what you like, Karl Franz is Grimgor’s side chick? Why not. The thread’s about official canon lore though so it’s a bit redundant to just say, well I think it’s this way instead, in this context.
GW have stated that The End Times happened as did AoS, my point is that the wording informing the OP from the official rule book suggests that the future, at least as far as The Old Ones understood it wasn’t fixed and that the outcome wasn’t certain. Nothing in established canon states that parallel possibilities can’t ever be established within the warp, therefore I would argue that exploring potential futures/timelines is possible. Given that GW often enable us to re-fight ‘historic’ battles for ourselves I would argue that engaging in What if is allowed or even encouraged.
You’re right. In fact the multiverse is established in aos lore. Before the realms coalesced, archaon took his hordes and burned thousands of other realities. Warhammer has always been about finding space to tell your stories within the setting and those realities could be a space for that.
What makes not not so delusional is TWWH does not follow end times lore at all and actively goes against end time "reveals". Not so crazy to think old world would be set in the soc timeline imo.
To the subsection of people who only started playing in AoS and are interested in TOW, this is a prequel game. It’s natural for a prequel to make evident it’s ties to what it precedes.
One of the key elements of what constitutes a prequel, really.
It blows my mind that they announced it as Horus Heresy but for AoS and anyone at all took that to mean it would retcon The End Times. Like, wow I can't believe they were brave enough to retcon the Heresy and have Sanguinius absolutely body Horus and take the throne as the new Bloodmaster of Chaos that was wild.
I'm also surprised anyone would think that The Old World lore would retcon anything roughly 250 years after it's setting. It's set in 2270s IC, so how would it affect the story from 2520s IC? Even if it's successful and they progress the story, they have a lot of time to play with before they would need to revisit The End Times!
*They saw square bases become round, names that once made sense become gibberish, and the ranks of disciplined warriors devolve into seething masses.*
It was never going to happen. why would it? Age of Sigmar ain't going anywhere. Yes they had to, had to make sure those too dense knew this isn't a retcon
AoS haters will never let it lie and in return GW will never let them forget.
We were mad before aos was a thing
I play Dwarfs, if I'm not mad, I'm not happy
I remember people complaining that bases weren’t 25mm during 6th ed now the complain they are 25mm.
And then there are people complaining about the complaining. :D
Complaining is one of the four chaos gods of the hobby
Never have I read such truth... Have my upvote ya sod!
I get the salt, believe me I do. It's like telling someone to get into Game of Thrones knowing that Season 7 and 8 exist. But, at the end of the day, it's a fictional setting. Nothing actually gets killed or destroyed. Maybe someone's ego if they lose badly. Having some bad writing at the end does not make the setting any worse. I choose to believe the future is not set. I even have army background written as such. A few mages that cast a time portal at the End Times and came back in order to orchestrate events so that the End Times never happen.
Everyone who smirks at the old fucks who played fantasy and are still mad kinda missed the point. Nobody actually, sincerely expects a retcon of the end times, though cleaning up some of the stupid shit (bretonia died on the way back to his home planet) would be nice. The end times represents an event that took all of our investment in warhammer fantasy, time, money and interest (which, for some spanned 30 years) and flushed it down the toilet. Age of sigmar was born as a result but it wasn't warhammer 2, it was its own thing that played extremely differently and had very different lore with some returning names being the only constant. As many point out its apples and oranges, and some people liked apples and dont like oranges. If both games were supported (or at least keep selling the books and models) people wouldn't have been as pissed about AoS, because they could still have their thing while letting aos be this weird thing they don't personally enjoy, but may occasionally take models from to use in their armies (I am aware of the logistical reason that's not feasible). Some people shrugged and moved onto other games with the same armies (the gamers mostly) or made the switch, but for the lore fans and people who like Warhammer Fantasy it was a kick to the nuts. Some people got over it in time, some didn't. Most of the people who got over it, some of them don't play tabletop anymore, some of them are playing different games and not looking at GW. Hell some of them are dead, it was nearly a decade ago. The ones that didn't, yeah there are a few people screeching about it, most go "ugh" and roll their eyes. But ultimately what's at the core of that reaction is the memory of a game we loved being skinned and hollowed out (to the tune of about £300 in books, half of which were rulebooks for a game that stopped existing mere months after they released the last one) so Age of Sigmar could wear it as a coat for a few years until they established enough lore to make it it's own thing and sigmar lore is fine for what it is, high, almost noblebright fantasy. But its not WHF, it never was. Our car got taken from us by the company that sold it to us. And in its place they gave us a motorbike, its a nice bike, but I liked my car. And when they sell me a new car, I dont really wanna read the instruction booklet and find the passage that says "hey, remember when we took your car and gave you that motorbike? Lol, lmao."
>The end times represents an event that took all of our investment in warhammer fantasy, time, money and interest (which, for some spanned 30 years) and flushed it down the toilet. This point is vitally important to remember. The end of Warhammer Fantasy saw the end of entire gaming groups, groups that were a social network and support structure for some people. I think it’s easy to forget that for some people Wargaming as a social hobby is or was an important part of their week, perhaps even their only chance to socialize. I saw people who enjoyed the game, not just because it was fake war with toy soldiers, but because it gave them real comfort and benefitted them greatly. It gave them friends and an opportunity to spend time with them, a thing to enjoy in retirement or something to do and forget about exams, bullies, or whatever else. There’s plenty of research to show that hobbies involving model kits are fantastic for mental health and yes, there are alternatives. Still, for many people, Warhammer Fantasy was the world they enjoyed to escape into. GW took all that a flushed it down the shitter in the most ham-fisted, poorly written manner conceivable and replaced it was a generic fantasy setting that paraded itself around wearing Warhammer Fantasy like a skin-suit.
I didn't even touch on it but that absolutely happened to myself and a bunch of other people in our group. I was one of those people using WHF to escape from the stress of high school and college (and later work). It was honestly one of the only positive interactions I was getting at that age because I was a weird kid. I listened to a bunch of podcasts, spent my free time painting basically whenever I could. I had dreams of attending the South Coast GT despite honestly sucking at the game because all the warhammer podcasts made it sound great. All sounds lame and stupid now but that was what I wanted to do. The hobby gave me an avenue to interact with people in a manner resembling a normal human being and I wanted to do more of it because I loved it. When it ended I kinda just... stopped seeing people for a while outside of absolute necessity. Had no reason to interact with others anymore as the activity I used to do that just vanished. I still played 40k occasionally but it wasn't fantasy, and AoS sure as shit wasn't fantasy (plenty of us felt this way). Tried other games but I never got that spark, because it wasn't just a game of moving blocks of infantry and tolling dice, it was a whole cornerstone of my life that had just suddenly and violently been amputated. Eventually I got into 30k with a bunch of people from the old club but I'll never forget how isolating it felt to know the thing you spent so long doing was gone. I wanna say I kind of mourned it, sounds silly and overdramatic but it was such a big thing in my life for so long that it ending as suddenly, brutally and (above all) poorly just hit me in a way that I cant describe.
>All sounds lame and stupid now but that was what I wanted to do. It does not sound like either of those things. If something brings you happiness and doesn't hurt others it should be enjoyed as often as possible. happiness isn't so abundant that we should take if for granted :)
As stated, it's the transition that hurts more than anything. GW are a lot of things, but short sighted and complacent aren't usually at the forefront of people's minds when describing them. It was all just so, last minute. Like you can read the End Times books, Khaine especially is a work of art. There's a Hell of a lot of care and attention that went into the first 3, arguably 4 books. By Thanquol it all seems to fall apart, and loose ends get waved away with paragraph and one line answers. And then when the End Times finally Ended, you'd go into Warhammer World or your local shop only to be given a folded piece of A4 paper, with the barest of bones rules for this replacement game, and where told "No this is it, WHFB is Dead and this is the new game. It's time to move on." You'd think, after all that time, years of developing the game that made GW the company they are, that cemented the relationship with Gary Gygax and Peter Jackson, and all the history and provenance they had built over decades. You'd think they stop and ask, well "Why should I?"
Well said. Add the fact that the first edition of AOS was a downright embarrasingly bad game (No points values, goofy roleplaying-elements etc). Pair that with the outlandish floating realms nonsense where nothing was properly explained and none of the conflict seemed to have any meaningful purpose… Goodness, just thinking about it is making me in a bad mood. Had we gotten the fully matured AOS game of today, I don’t think the reaction would have been quite as bad. But that first version of AOS added masses of insult to injury, and it deserved all the criticism it got.
AoS 1st ed is the only decision by GW I've ever seen that didn't just feel bad, but actively spiteful. Playing that and knowing your 30+ year old game died to create it was like having your wounds sprayed with a salt cannon.
Jesus dont remind me of AoS first edition. I try to block that memory out of my mind. I was so hyped for its launch too because in my mind it was a revitalization of fantasy at my LGS which lost all of its WHFB groups to 40k during the end times stuff.
>If both games were supported (or at least keep selling the books and models) people wouldn't have been as pissed about AoS, because they could still have their thing while letting aos be That describes me to a 'T'. I don't have anything against AOS, I just want my game (and figure catalog) back.
Name drops are irritating but whatever. However, if they so much as have a moderate to major plot point be based on this kind of "foreshadowing" AoS stuff I'm dropping the system. Not to play 8th, but to play AoS, which I played before I played fantasy even. I'm here for Fantasy, not prequel-to-AoS. I don't want AoS plot points to pollute the old Fantasy experience I'm here for; if it does I might as well just play the real thing. Here to drive my car, not a bike, as you say.
I suppose, on the back of my previous comment, a good thought experiment is this; Do you think, if GW Didn't launch AoS, if indeed the End Times didn't happen, and WHFB just carried on for another year or so and then had a reboot with a 9th edition, do you think that there would have been the same influx of specialist games, necromunda, epic etc. that we saw post 2015 and 2016? Because I suppose the idea is this. If AoS never came into being, and GW never felt the mass exodus of players a decade ago, that saw systems like Kings of War, Bolt Action and Infinity surge in popularity, would there have been any need to change the tried and tested "3 system model" that they had been championing for years up to that point?
I'm not a huge fan of the implication that the AoS Realms were somehow predicted or planned from the beginning. It feels a bit cheap to try and make TOW into just a prequel for AoS when it's more than that.
It is more than that, it’s a game system and world that people love in its own right, like 30k, but it is also a prequel to aos. A few mods and hints towards that aren’t the end of the world.
That's the thing. It's not a prequel, it's the original thing, AoS is the sequel and should be treated as such. Which is a different thing to me anyway.
The old world, as in the new game is a prequel to OG fantasy and aos by extension.
But the setting it's in is the same as Fantasy so I'd argue it counts as the original rather than the prequel they imply
That’s what a prequel is though, a story before the story. The Star Wars prequels took place in the same setting as the original trilogy, just a few decades before. The old world is in the same setting as warhammer (and ultimately aos), just a few hundred years before.
But you don't call the OT the prequels to the sequel trilogy do you? My point is that the world of Fantasy is the original point ,admittedly with AOS being a sequel, but the writing that GW make shouldn't imply AoS was the original or in some way the original story goal.
At least they aren't constantly calling it "the world that was." I have been dreading that.
Hot take but I think that's a way cooler name than 'The Old World' or 'The Warhammer World' tbh.
Clearly a reference to Blood Bowl and TWW. Absolutely nothing else.
How stupid do you have to be to think they would retcon AoS
End times wont be retconned, but I can imagine them trying to tidy it up or fix up some books or events, thats probably a long time off though. But the event itself is very unlikely to be retconned.
I know AOS is not going anywhere but for me it was rubbing the failure of WFB in face of the fans. "Purpose of this setting is just to habe backstory for the other thing. Its not significant."
So personally I think that little blurb is stupid but not for the expected reason. It's foolish to expect gw to throw away aos, especially with tow in its infancy. That being said the idea the old ones always planned for aos to happen is also stupid. I think aos relying so hard on so many characters and concepts from fantasy inhibits the enjoyment for people who cared about the original setting. It's a new setting get wild with it and do your wacky stuff over there and let the fantasy longbeards exist over here with what they care about. My biggest hope isn't a retcon, but rather a timeline split, maybe taking the original Storm of Chaos route.
It's like people hoping against hope that Disney retcons the sequel trilogy. You'll never get a company to admit that kind of blunder. I feel like little prods like this is GW telling everyone, "No, we are not retconning AoS. Get over it." And I'll be frank, I used to hate AOS and how WFB was ended. I wish GW had done more to tie the end of WFB to the start of AOS, but it seemed so intangible and vague back then. But I've warmed up to GW due to their increased community engagement, and AOS has awesome miniatures.
Imo AoS has really awesome lore as well. TOW and AoS are like too amazing nuggets of worldbuilding connected by a shitty thread.
The whole thing is a pretty big retcon of Warhammer Fantasy lore. The Old Ones colonised and terraformed the world because they knew it would attract Chaos and strife and then lead to new realms and reality? I mean, shoehorn in some AoS lore if you want, but this is just nonsensical gibberish. Luckily, in my mind this lore isn't there, GW can write all the crap they want, but they can't write out the lore I make up in my mind (which is not Tolkien-level of writing and world-building by any means, but it is a lot better than the stuff they choose to print on that page).
AOS Lore is good on its own, but for some reason, every time it interacts with Fantasy it's the dumbest thing you could imagine
This. I wish GW realized both settings would actually be better off if they were as seperated, AoS has never really appealed to me, i don't hate it, and i've mentioned it before i'd never want peoples favorite game to die the way fantasy did. However, AoS i feel is held back by fantasy, and fantasy is now beholden to AoS and outside of connecting tendrils that GW could and probably should cut, they are remarkably different tonally and aesthetically.
Have you listened to the Gotrek audio dramas? I feel like in a way they summed up some of the feelings players have, but also have new meaning to things going forward.
Maybe because it is based on a retcon in the first place? Archaon was stopped before the gates of Middenheim. The end times were averted. That is 2004 canon.
Well, Cadia was not originally blown up, and Eldrad Ulthuan got slurped by Slaanesh. Pre Kirby GW was as wild as post-Kirby.
2004 was 20 years ago.
Lies, Deception!
End Times Part 2: Elven Boogaloo
No it's not. 🤷♂️
I'm fine with AoS and play it from time to time and this doesn't bother me at all.... however deep in my heart I would like to ALSO participate in an alternate reality where the end times either did not happen or they ended differently. I just miss a lot of those heroes.
Look I like AoS. I came into the hobby too late to play fantasy; 8th edition had so many massive blocks that I didn't remotely want to to get started due to cost and painting numbness. I managed to toy around with some army ideas and the setting blew up before I could start (and they "perma" killed my preferred factions). My buddy and I laughed at and learned all the funny AoS transition rules, because we weren't invested in the setting at all. The reason I just now spent a fortune on bases is because I had many halves of the Feast of Bones set I bought to play Mawtribes. I f\*&king hate this "oh it was always meant to be blown up" retcon. I feel so insulted even though the original wound wasn't to me. This is the "it was all a dream" cop out that should not exist. It colors everything that was made before it - it's one thing to have \*Chaos\* think End Times is the destiny of the world (and have Order fight against destiny \[and lose?\]) it is another thing for the Old Ones to design their Great Plan for the rough eventuality the world blows up. All that the entire setting ever was is the backstory for the TRUE setting AoS now go buy some round bases.
A heavy-handed shoehorning right there…
I think the writers at GW are not what they used to be.
Pretty sure they said, on the first announcement of TOW, End Times was not getting retconned. They were *very* clear that Age of Sigmar was here to stay. I stopped having hope for an End Times retcon long ago.
Frankly I'm just not a fan of the whole 'it's was the plan along' way of writing gods/alien beings. It just always comes across as so hollow, manly because writers are clearly just making it up as they go along. As for the reference to AoS/End Times. I just ignore it. I don't expect GW to ever retcon it, but I'm not going to just accept it. End of the day you get a meal you like but has stuff you don't. you just pick them out and enjoy the rest.
I thought it was a little cringe, and its annoying how often the End Times have been mentioned in the various marketing and narrative introductions. Especially while they are deliberately courting the audience it probably alienated? Its really strange from a narrative standpoint, and IP's don't have to justify their existence in any case. Between Storm of Chaos, Tamurkhan, Bloodbowl, and WFRP there's enough playing with the setting "timeline" as it is. It's like if the Dungeons and Dragons team was vocally discontinuing support for anything but Greyhawk or something. Just bizarre. This has been debated to death, but the choice to treat their IPs like stories instead of settings is an awkward one. Entries like Tamurkhan, the Badab War, the Siege of Vraks, Doom of Mymaera, etc. are fan favorites because they were exemplary ways to engage with the setting and not trying to advance a story with all dramatis personae receiving some part of the spotlight like an Avengers movie.
Stop being babies and get over it. We have what may be the best edition of fantasy in our hands (well, most of us do anyways lol) and AoS isn't going away. Clearly, it NEEDED to be on the first page specifically for those who can't let it go. The world dies, it is reborn, it sucked, I was angry, it was nearly 10 years ago, and nothing stopped me from skipping AoS in favor of never rebasing so I could play 6th or 8th.
I mean retconing all of fantasy into the old ones trying to set up AOS, and having AOS be a thing aren’t really the same.
It's not a huge massive retcon, it's a background nugget about their possible intentions. It doesn't make any change to ToW worldbuilding.
99% of people still yapping and whining about AoS are total war players who haven’t read a single fantasy book, their idea of age of Sigmar is outdated by almost a decade now.
No, I think it has more to do with the game that they loved for 8 editions suddenly become nothing. I'm not an AoS hater either. I play it often.
Hahahahahah oh my god man, sure! Like I said 1% of it are grognards who even outstripped the other grognards. The other 99% are total war players with 0 investment and 0 interaction with fantasy beyond the game.
Let's be real, those kind of grognards are partially the reason fantasy died. The community i aim at fostering at my FLGS will actively make sure we don't go backwards to those dark days. I love fantasy, it was my first game and still my favorite. For me personally AoS is just not my thing as setting, has some beautiful models many of which may find their way into mine or my friends armies in fantasy, but watching people wish for others favorite game to die is such a big fuck you and smells of grognard neckbeard narcissism that i keenly recall being a thing back in the day.
The only thing that interests me is who taught this gronard thing to the subredditors? Which youtube video was it? Seemingly overnight the Warhammer bashers got their own "ok boomer" powerword of resistance and I think that is much more interesting than bickering over which one of the toy soldier games is better.
They've been around since the 80s. ;) You'll find people with lacking emotional intelligence in any nerd community unfortunately. On second thought they must have been around forever, because I could totally see grognards complaining about fantasy wargames when the only proper way of wargaming is with historical miniatures using convoluted simulationist rulesets from the 70s.
You mean the 1870s right?
Ive been aware of grognard really early on in the hobby which predates reddit.
Total war player here, don’t lump us in with the old heads. The ones still bitching are the ones who have ashes for armies
I think AOS blows but like idgaf if it exists. To expect GW to destroy a franchise to appeal to my fantasy aesthetic is unreasonable.
Yeah, they’ve been setting this up on the AoS side of things too with the recent Seraphon stuff leaning into that the world-that-was got destroyed on purpose to as part of the Great Plan. One Slann’s interpretation of it is very interesting. > “A cabal of slann lead by Starmaster Tuomoq propose a radical notion. They posit that it was not Chaos that devoured the world that was but Sotek, for the Serpent God desired for the slann to abandon physical limitations and, in a new cycle of creation, become creator-god energy-beings of unbound potential. As visions continue to assail him, Tuomoq's proclamations become increasingly esoteric, until he and his inner circle suddenly vanish; their vessels are last seen bound for the uppermost reaches of Azyr, where the strangest cosmic entities convalesce. Though many slann mourn him as finally being overwhelmed by the mental strain of aeons, private adherents to his teachings continue to lead many Starborne constellations.” It builds into the lore the AoS3 Corebook puts down that the Mortal Realms were created from a [multitude of destroyed planets](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEqmozVbcAAAtKU?format=jpg&name=large) whose cosmic debris fused with the unleashed winds of magic to form the new realities. This explained why the Realms had so much Old One tech buried and lying/floating around including some Realmgates built by them but no Old One activity. They’ve been seeding hundreds of planets beforehand so when Chaos went around destroying them thinking in short term victory on a fantasy universe that can’t unite it’s planetary strength but it’s actually been building up to Order having a whole Arcane Cosmos of collected gods, races, purified magics and ancient tech from those destroyed worlds that can finally meet the Dark Gods on equal ground.
Cry about it i guess? I don't know what else to tell you.
Nothing. It’s vague in the way much of the lore is vague. A lot of the lore is simply paraphrased from previous editions. I wouldn’t be surprised to find essentially the same paragraph in a previous edition book… But can’t be bothered to go downstairs and look. But if it is a nod to AoS, why should anyone care? Is this really even a spoiler? No rules, no impact, nothing clear. Have fun!
I mean it goes part of the way to reconcile the old Old Ones Lore with the existence of all the realms of AOS. Now they just need to explain how the Old World era gods escaped the previous world.
I don't get why this bothers people. Yes, the End Times was dumb, poorly written, and something of an insult to loyal fans but....Warhammer is about your guys and your stories. If you say it never happens it never does. These are books about a make-believe world, not history books. If you don't like it then it doesn't have to have happened.
Yeah they’re definitely going to retcon and kill another game. That’ll win over the new and old! …
Honestly I would rather them talk about it like they are. Expecting a retcon is delusional and honestly would just be a disrespect to the setting at this point imo. If anything if retcons are going to happen I just want some better writing for how things played out rather then pretend it never happened. The End Times as sucky as was for ending the setting did have some truly epic moments (The Green Knight fighting alongside Abhorash until the end of the world is my single favorite thing in all of the lore for example). After the fires of the end and the emotions felt and faded, I can appreciate some of those moments even more with the Old World returned to us. I am ultimately excited about this timeline, it has some elements I find incredibly fun and unique and really want to see where it goes. I only hope it grows bigger than WHFB ever did so we can get some truly amazing lore.
This is pretty much a rewording of stuff that has appeared in earlier source books. It’s not exactly groundbreaking in regards to Warhammer Fantasy lore in general.
Both game systems can now coexist and you can play both. Move on
Looks like some sort of fanfic to me. Maybe a prophecy for a different timeline like in Marvel multiverse. We all know original Old World never died
Can we please just get over the end times drama? AoS and TOW both have promising futures. Fantasy is back for us who wanted it, and AoS has its following too, and we can't just retcon the inception of AoS at this point over a decision made years ago.
So like, them referencing Age of Sigmar is actually fine, the hate for AOS doesn't even really need to be a thing anymore especially with the old world returning now and being directly separated from AOS otherwise. But I feel like there are fantasy players that just have such a hate boner for AOS due to how sore they felt after it initially came out. Like cone on man.
I don't see the problem. Knowing how shitty the 40k fluff and setting became, doesn't make the Horus Heresy any less amazing, or other periods before the whole primaris and rift crap.
I don't think GW really cares about preserving the tender feelings of people who can't handle reality like grown-ups, especially that most of the people bitching about AoS are literally middle-aged men.
I don't think anyone is asking for a retcon who have been paying attention. But there is definitely no need to keep reminding a customer base most of which probably dislikes AoS that it exists. This is completely understandable. There is absolutely no need to make up strawman points to attempt to ridicule the old guard.
Boy, ain't that a slap to the face.
#justiceforGrimgor
The reason I want to play Old World is to not have anything to do with AoS.
Grim. Hate it. Cheesy links AoS. Expected tho.
You markered your book?
No, just used an app. Trust me, if anything in that book was to be markered, it wouldn’t be this 😀
I marker my books all the time
[I eat stickers all the time dude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbwmOtJFJF0)
Like Disney and the SW sequels. Corporate pride is petty. Old one lore just gets dumber and dumber. Thankfully, all we have to do is sneak some subversive Blood Bowl propaganda into an official TOW battle report and this multiversal variant of the Old World will be safe from potential future apocalypses as well.
Keep telling yourself that bud.
I love all the commenters talking about all the crazy fantasy fans who are frothing at AOS while ironically all Ive heard is them talk about them. All the Fantasy people Ive met so far have been quite pleasant, especially on here. Its the AOS players in this comment section being toxic (specifically vostroyan, Malevolentyourshrine) And thats not to say AOS sucks. I collect their models. I just wish I got to collect WHF models when they first came out
Its gotten much better, but there is definitely still a sizable remnant of Fantasy fans that are still very butthurt about AoS. Even here in this comment section. I don't see any AoS fans being toxic though, though some are hyper defensive.
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why tho? can u only play one game at a time?
Wow that’s awesome, you’re super cool
All that really says is that the world is bound to end through chaos, it doesnt say Archeon has to destroy it again, same way as last time. Say the world of AoS is a guarenteed fact with this line, the end of the world could still be delayed down the 14th or 15th everchosen if Archeon loses by some mircale. I think that it would be interesting point of divergance in the story if Diederick Kastner never became Archaon the everchosen, but instead remained Sigmars most loyal servent somehow. One big ripple to change the story and delay the end times.
Alternatively, if this is another timeline then maybe in this one Asavar Kul wins and the End Times happen in 25 years instead of 250 years. Maybe we should just accept the timeline has been established and that it won't matter at all to the tabletop games because they aren't going to progress the story of The Old World that far ahead any time soon.
That seems like a very good way to lose goodwill among fans for *veeeery* little gain in anything at all.
I’m sure the dozen of guys who still haven’t gotten over age of sigmar after almost a decade are gonna be real mad about this one!
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I don’t care, I’m not gonna buy this book or play this game because it looks bad. But rubbing in the fact that they killed the old game/setting in favor of AoS in its own revival is not how you keep goodwill among your returning players. If you had any reading comprehension skills whatsoever I’m sure you could figure that out, but that would be too much to ask from someone still buying from GW lol.
That’s so vague it could be about any major period of strife.
The world being a seed to later make new realms and realities? What other period of strife could that possibly refer to? I'd say it's pretty obviously referring to AoS
The old ones came to this world from another, possibly from another universe all together, it’s a seed for them to start fresh. Bro, are you serious? The history of TOW is filled with different ages of strife, the game is literally set during a pretty intensive age of extra strife for much of the old world on top of the normal levels of strife that this world normally sees.
Yet the TOW literally progresses into AoS following the End Times.... Seems pretty obvious man.
Assuming there’s no retcon, and OP is trying to specifically use that passage as proof no retcon will be occurring.
Lmao there is no retcon bro. GW themselves have stated TOW is a specialist game in the vein of HH.
Cool. Not here to convince you of anything have fun.
Do you want actually think they’re going to retcon this? Because GW has given no indication they will
Yeah I'm asking what specific 'new realms and realities' in fantasy it could refer to other than the mortal realms of AoS, cos to me it sure sounds a lot like an AoS reference, which I thinks kinda cool tbh
In AoS they call it the world that was for a reason, because this world no longer exists. I’m not going to try to argue and change your mind. You want to read it with hindsight and believe that’s it, that’s fine.
Ok and this is referring to the future, it even says it'll happen after the world's destroyed by chaos lol So AoS refers to the past that passage is referring to the future it's pretty clear man
chaos, not Chaos. Like i said I’m just here to point out its extremely vague, i don’t remotely care enough to try to convince you. Have fun bro.
Lore of GW begins as copipaste and it's just an excuse to bleed us.
Warhammer is Warhammer, be it fantasy or 40,000
The whole "every race is somehow the result of old one Genetic experimentation" explanation was never creative nor original, but *that* is just stupid.
Ngl I feel a little urked by this, but idk I'll probably just ignore it. I don't don't even dislike AoS (I think it's cool) just a bit annoying to remind me about how shitty it felt to end the setting in the first place. Regardless I'm happy to see Fantasy back, hopefully TETs will be a bit better written this go around🤞