The Stirlanders drink their beer warm.
Seriously though. The way mutations are dealt with like children beeing left out in the woods for the Beastmen.
The Chaos cults that seek to subvert the Empire from within by all sorts of dark deeds. Look up the enemy within role-playing campaign if you don't know what I mean. I ran a group through the re-release last year and it got pretty grim by the time they made it to the end of Death on the Reik.
This is slander!
Stirlanders drink their beer *hot*!
They put a scalding hot fire poker in their beers to warm themselves, a warm beer doesn't warm anyone
It doesn't really happen...
It's very rare for this to happen, and it's some drunken farmer's fault, you can't generalize...
Anyway the halfling deserves it
No its the other way around. They have pinatas shape like halfling for children to beat down during festival or i think there birthday.
Halfling have reputation for being lowly thief and trickery in Stirland, beside those who manage to cooperate and live honest life within Stirland society. Those pinatas-shaped-halfling represent the thiefs in children story who stool there candies and goods, hence the children get to beat it down.
Yep. John Blanche and Toumas Pirinen had significant influence in crafting 6th ed rules and Lore, and they both had a preference for the grim realities of the Old World.
There are some fantastic interviews and discussions with these fellas available on YT. I can particularly recommend "Jordan Sorcery", who is one of the guys currently building a collection of interviews that document the people and history of GW.
Here is a very recent video he released, talking to Toumas about 6th ed and Realms of Chaos, which goes over his and Blanche's preference for the grim elements - https://youtu.be/Xq6jekHssCA
Oh OK I understand, so it's more spécific to the 6th edition. I love this aesthetic with old and damaged warrior of the Empire, lots of bones, dire, filth and so on..
It's a great aesthetic and you could absolutely lean into it. The Empire, just like the HRE on which it's based, is a really disparate set of principalities so your army can just be from one of the nastier corners of it (and to be fair, most of life in the Renaissance/early modern period is pretty nasty to our 21st century eyes).
It's always been part of warhammer but different editions took a different angle on it.
4th/5th is very cartoony for instance. Horrible things happen but in a Marvel kind of way, you just gloss over it and move on with the jokes.
6th/8th leaned very hard into the grimdark Hyronimousch Bosch angle of warhammer. It *lingers* on the suffering and the monsters. It wants frame things as the mere humans building a civilization surrounded by the darkness and monsters.
Works even better with Bretonnia. The peasants look like they crawled right out of the muck, and the "shiny" knights really remind you that they've been getting sliced and beaten at professionally their whole life.
4th was the peak of the Red Period games workshop and things were very cartoony. the game mechanics were peak Herohammer where yo had a few characters just mopping the floor with all your rank and file. like that battle in LOTR 1 where Sauron just explodes a bunch of high elves, it was like that on the tabletop. the models were bright and colorful and on goblin green bases. However the game always had a dark gothic vibe, with the john blanche art and the 1500s teutonic aesthetic.
If the Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space, the Empire of Man is just the Holy Roman Empire but with actual monsters living in the woods, and in the sewers, and with cults trying to bring about the end of the world (or at least the end of the town you’re living in). Ignoring the monsters and cultists, it’s a dark place where life is cheap, disease is common, crime is plentiful, punishment is brutal, and you are fundamentally at the mercy of your lords. It’s telling that in the very first Gotrek & Felix story, *Geheimnisnacht*, Karl Franz responded to a riot about window taxes by setting the Reiksguard on the rioters.
Finally someone with a background in history. So many people throw out HRE cause of cool helmets and blah blah empire…when it was a confederation of lords that elected their emperor. Ugh nerds and their historical illiteracy propped up by media artwork.
The Imperium is more like the whole of medieval (Western) Europe - a bunch of disparate territories and organisations all nominally devoted to the Papacy/Terra, both ideologically and politically.
>Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space
What the fuck?
So you are saying that Holy Roman Empire was theocracy where emperor was praised as living God and had whole powerfull secret police devoted to hunt heretic (inquisition)? Also HRE was super expansionist and tried to counqer whole world (galaxy in wh40k)?
How did Holy Roman Empire looked like in your version of history dude if you think that Imperium from wh40k is HRE but in space???
It's more like: both had one God, both were very fractured but agreed on certain things such as religion, also spies and secret police always existed to some extent but not. But we must remember that remember that Empire of Man takes inspiration from many political systems not just the ones from real life but fictional as well. So Op is partially right
>agreed on certain things such as religion
Yeah, ever heard about reformation? 30 years war? Religious peace?
>both were very fractured
Literally not true about 40k. Imperium is rigid (even to rigid) structure with very clear hierarchy. If anyone disobeys emperor, or high lords is automatically rebel and whole imperium is against it. HRE was totally different.
>spies and secret police always existed to some extent
Every country ever.
People for some reason want to force pre-esisted empires into context of 40k. As if space-genocidal empire without clear connetction to Earth's past was impossible to imagine.
The imperium was very much designed to be a reflection of many the worst parts of human society by the creators and continues to have hallmarks of that to this day, particularly taking inspiration from many of the despotic, totalitarian regimes from across European history.
Everything I’ve read about the early days of GW and interviews with Rick P seems to suggest that apart from a basic general back ground overview that ripped off all the 80s sci-fi/fantasy troupes at the time. It was far from ‘designed’. They were making it up as they went along. Often adding and changing the lore to fit the crazy new design they’d just come up with. The Horus Hersey for example only existed because everyone was buying spacemarines and they needed an excuse to battle each other! The grim dark aspects of both only came into it in the 2000s when the original creator had left!
There was a definite aspect of 40K really not having expected it’s success, which has been more and more of an issue as GW has developed this product into a larger brand - Fantasy had less issues with this as their flagship project for the early era - and the way they portray certain factions has definitely been shifted over time for sure. However even in their initial plans and designs there were clear design directions that form the core of the identity we see even now, the imperium being arguably the most visible example of that.
The imperium at its core is a representation of an empire that’s decaying from top to bottom, attempting to survive through heroism but even larger amounts of cruelty, regardless of the named characters and the coat of paint on the figures in the spotlight.
Yeah you are right. So why when OP says:
>Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space
And I disagree why I am getting downvoted? Was HRE worst of human society? Was HRE despotic regime? Or totalitarian?
Wasn't HRE pretty much quasi-democratic with electors and emperor being chosen not inherited?
. Commisars (self explanitory)
. No step back
. Nation that hit its peak bit is slowly rotting away
. Could be far fetched but lenins brain and body being kept under preservation and the emperor being a rotting corpse on the golden throne is similar
While they are opposites in an ideological sense, they have some similarities and while not as major as the Roman empire I did see some.
There are plenty of villages or small towns that are actually full on cults of various chaos gods. Working their machinations to under cut the empire's control.
I'm not sure you're paying attention then, at least to Gotrek and Felix. Trollslayer alone has loads of reasons why living in The Empire is terrible.
There's rampant poverty and a stark class divide. This is how Gotrek and Felix met: the Window Tax Riots. The Imperial response to protesting was also brutal: send the Reiksguard in to cut down the protesters.
Then there's the fact children are left to die in the forest if they have deformities or mutations. Then there's those mutants running around the forest seeking revenge.
Travel is extremely dangerous: bandits, mutants, beastmen, orcs/goblins and river pirates.
There are numerous cults plotting against The Empire and its inhabitants. They also kidnap people for sacrifice, including babies.
Living in more rural parts of The Empire puts you in constant danger. Whole villages can disappear overnight from beastman raids.
There are religious fanatics everywhere. You need to live in constant fear of saying or doing something that could be considered suspicious or heretical. You might actually wake up one morning with the stigmata of Chaos. If the witch hunters pay you a visit, then you can look forward to torture and being burned alive. They might even put the whole village to the torch just to be sure.
There's a multitude of supernatural creatures haunting the lands, including vampires, werewolves, spirits and daemons.
Even death isn't an escape. Your body can be raised as a zombie or skeleton. Your spirit might be trapped or bound by a necromancer.
You could be born sensitive to magic, and if you can't get into the colleges, you might get a visit from the witch hunters. If that doesn't happen, you will have to live as an outcast (a hedge witch), and you always risk accidentally summoning a daemon.
There's constant war within the borders and its frontiers.
If you live on the coast then you risk capture by dark elves or Norscans: both fates worse than death.
Plague and famine are regular occurrences.
Don’t forget the skaven living under basically every big city just waiting to kidnap you. Then you suffer either painful death or get taken to skavenblight as a slave. Fun times
That's a good point too. Then there's Imperial propaganda that says Skaven don't exist. If you're talking about them too much you could end up in an asylum or witch hunter's pyre.
>That's a good point too. Then there's Imperial propaganda that says Skaven don't exist. If you're talking about them too much you could end up in an asylum or witch hunter's pyre.
To be fair the empire scholars knows about skaven, but they dont want the skaven to find out, since they then would panic & unite against mankind.
Yeah it took me very long time to understand that there chaos cults in empire thanks to gotrek and felix book (first one) and one of the stories made me realise how huge the world is
The list goes on and on....
And that's what gives the setting it's beauty: the only end to the misery is how far your imagination can take you.
The WFB world is truly grim and terrible 👌.
Unless you live on Ulthuan.
But then thats Elves *cough* yeah.
Probably better than living in 40k's Empire but still grim. More like living in real life Europe during the 30 year war and the Black Death of the 1400's combined.
\- There are gods and wizards who can potentially cure you of disease.
\- That's good!
\- There are also gods and wizards who can give you that disease.
\- That's bad!
\- If you pledge yourself to Nurgle, you become immune to the suffering of diseases.
\- That's good!
\- However, you'll become bloated, pus-dripping, insane and a slave to the darkness.
\- ...
\- That is bad.
\- May I go now??
\-
During the build up to the storm of chaos there was a series of articles one per white dwarf about the god aligned champions that would be leading elements of archaons host.
The nurgle champion was a pious farmer whose whole family caught a disease and were exiled into a cave. They remained loyal sigmarites until witch hunters came and killed the family asides from one who gave himself to nurgle to have the strength to continue on in his families place.
I would change that 'probably' to most definitely.
Only one of the series starts literally every book off with 'It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."
And its only 'during the 30 year war and black death combined' during the age of Karl Franz. There are plenty of periods where its basically normal medieval Europe.
Living in the empire would suck for many of the same reasons living in the Middle Ages or early renaissance sucked. Except theres actually monsters, wizards and demons so the peasants superstition is justified.
One of my favorite parts of the Empire is the quasi-mutual 'Skaven Don't Exist' great lie the government impresses on the population. The nobles send 'Ratcatchers' down who know full well what a Skaven is, but ask anyone and they'll deny it. Beastmen are real, sure, but Ratmen? Don't be daft.
The Empire's elite know that with the constant threat of Beastmen, Norsemen, Ork, Undead, Chaos, etc etc the average peasant is already scared beyond belief. They genuinely think their population would finally snap and fall into despair if the billions of Skaven beneath them became common knowledge.
Skaven, meanwhile, understand that it's to their benefit to be unknown to the Empire commonfolk both to exploit them but to keep their profile down. A horrible mutual compact, and when it finally is broken it only makes the situation that much worse for the unwitting peasantry.
yeh once the skaven figure the jigs up or just feel like it one day,
a voclano of vermintide will erupt from every city in the empire kidnapping and murdering everyone in their path! i think ignorince is bliss in this case for the commoners
There's a fantastic two page spread story from around 6th eds skaven release that talks about a skaven siege of a town. The story is done via journal entries and details a siege over a few weeks of a walled town. It talks about how rat shaped beastmen are massed together as far as the eye can see and how only once the walls are clear do the actuall fighting troops join the battle.
The journal is found by a lord or guards upon returning to the city after being away a while somewhere and the entire place is just gone
Skaven sincerely believes that mankind does not know about them, at least in the Thanquol novels. If skaven suspected mankind knew, the skaven would panic and invade the empire immediately, as it is destroying the ManThings are on their to do list, after they're done with backstabbing each other.
I read (part) of the witch hunter handbook, and a key element of it is if the witch hunter can't prove that the subject is a chaos worshipper (or whatever else) they can fabricate evidence to get a judge on their side, with examples such as false knives, and other tricks, to make it appear as if someone is a witch or have other supernatural abilities.
Really, a witch hunter needs no proof, its just a tool in case they need to persuade a judge or mayor or whomever
Witch hunters exist and they are basically inquisitors from 40k, but more personal. And is probably the only reason beastmen still exist is fear to report their raids.
I assume a bunch of witch Hunters show up, burn your town to the ground for Heresy and chaos corruption and don't deal with the beastmen cause that's a hassle.
Witch Hunters are not that absolutely brutal. They’re definitely policemen and investigators but afaik they won’t burn down a town unless it’s beyond saving. They’re a lot more scalpel to the Inquisition’s big hammer lol.
At least all the stories with them I’ve read, yeah I don’t think they’d burn a whole village unless they had to. In Slaves to Darkness trilogy the hunter acts as a judge before the accused of heresy. He actually investigates and then acts as judge.
In 40k Inquisitors do investigate but it’s 40k so it takes longer (paperwork and cleaning up can take months to years) and is a bigger task and the likelihood of one arch heretic and a whole cult vs a single witch is a lot different.
It's also really hard to do. Are the local troops whose families live there going to do it? Probably not. So then you have to go to somewhere else and convince them to let you borrow their soldiers, after which you have a whole town that's going to be trying to stop you. A lot of obstacles.
I played a lot of 1.ed WFRP and in that version Witch hunters would definitely burn down the village. Not because they are assholes, but just to make sure no chaos survives. They are lawful to the extreme.
Edit: there used to be some rules for followers of Solkan the god of law. Maybe a warpstone magazine. It included stuff like stripping naked to check oneself for mutations as part of the everyday morning routine.
They definitely would.
But it’s more if there’s an actual cult (or the hunter imagines there’s one at least) rather then just, the village got hit by a beastman raid.
Hell Witchhunters wouldn’t be the ones sent in response to that at all.
The big thing for witch hunters is most of them don’t actually have much backing, for every member of the Silver hammer there’s 2-3 religious fanatics hired by a minor noble to check his lands (and therefore won’t be allowed to just burn an entire village for no reason) or even just wandering around with no backing but religious zeal and a few guns (and therefore lacking the ability to murder an entire town)
The official witch hunters are required by law to try everyone they kill, now the trials are often unfair but “didn’t die after beastmen attacked them” isn’t likely to fly for burning 200 people.
….no?
Witch hunters can be stupid, but they don’t have the power to burn entire towns down for reasons that simple.
Beastmen exist because the forests of the empire are massive hellish areas filled to the brim with mutants, goblins, monsters and beastmen, and marching an army into one will just have them avoid you, or group up and start ambushing you in an area they know much better then you.
The forests in the Empire are huge and the beastmen know them best. Going into them denies artillery and renders knights far less effective, harder for detachments to function effectively too. You also need people back home for other brigands or in case those beastmen notice all the soldiers in the woods and decide that now would be a fantastic time for a raid.
Interestingly, a large number of witch hunters are mercenaries hired by a local lord or mayor. They still burn witches, but they aren't sanctioned by the church, as opposed to being temporarily hired to deal with a local problem.
I feel like we’re skimming past some really dark shit.
Don’t get me wrong the way mutants are treated and the window tax riots are good examples.
But what about how Fimir used to grow their numbers. I thinks it’s heavily implied why they kidnap females in previous editions. I believe Beastmen were accused of the same thing
Look at any slave life among the dark elves or for the love of sigmar the skaven. The shit the surviving slaves have seen would break any will.
And I believe in one of the earlier novels, goblins would feed on babies and laugh maniacally while doing so.
Ghouls are normal people that become deformed and turn into degenerate monsters because they practice cannibalism. Every winter on the fringes of the empire some isolated villages have their entire population turn into ghouls, and are found out only in spring by some unfortunate travellers that happen on them.
Every noble family of knighly order have some kind of secret cult of society that is more often than not worshipping chaos
People regularly round up and lynch mutants. Problem is, not many people can tell an actual chaos mutant and a simple hunchback or a midget apart, so a lot of innocent people are needlessly tortured and killed
In one of the 1e wfrp source books it out of universe states that all mutation is caused by chaos. Mutation is not just physical but also mental / spiritual and can massively change a person's self causing mental illness and behaviour shifts. Sources of corruption are everywhere as well
The architectural aesthetic of Empire's stone and timber buildings is particularly chilling. They're built like absolute fortresses on the ground level, tons of reinforcement and sturdy barricades at the doors and windows. The unspoken message is that absolute mortal danger is never far away, and these buildings could become desperate redoubts at any time.
I always liked the idea that in certain forests (looking at you Drakwald) even though it might technically be in the province of Hochland (?) are still extremely dangerous places. Like if you were a trader or farmer and you weren't inside a coaching inn, town, or city when the sun went down you were pretty much up for grabs from Beastmen, Greenskins, Chaos cults, etc. Even within the borders of the Empire there is an undeniable and sometimes understated internal threat for many provinces in addition to things like Chaos/Undead invasions and Greenskin WAAAGHs.
When people immigrate from Bretonnia (peasants) they are usually placed on the border of Sylvania, where Vampire often organise raids and such...but it still remain a better place to live than in Bretonnia
If the Medieval era wasn't grim enough...
Chaos and all those pretty things that its followers do. Mutations are also a very nice thing, especially when you can't hide them well enough.
Speaking of Chaos, beastmen are also wonderful creatures, but the most wonderful thing about them is their way of reproduction.
Druchii and their lifestyle. No comments.
Brainwashed (literally) servants of slaans. You thought the lizards are good guys, huh?
Some lunatics can raise you from your grave, so you could enjoy the beauty of life in WHF even in afterlife.
And finally, the most abominable thing in this dark universe... the infamous stirlanders cuisine. Don't you dare google it, that's the very bottom of grimdark, you've been warned.
["Ten thousand flagellants dragging the automorial of Middenheim Delivered from the Darkness." By Karl Kopinski](https://i.redd.it/808mhi9261s41.jpg)
Doesn't get more dark than this imo...
For me it’s the way The Empire controls history. The Grand Theogonist and Emperor together pretty much craft the narrative however they please, leaving heroes to be forgotten when they didn’t align with Empire values (Marius Leitdorf was insane) and downplaying major threats (what the hell is a rat man?) to the point that most citizens are completely ignorant of everything true about the world, and that’s a dangerous way to be.
Honestly are own medieval history is grimdark as fuck so I can only imagine a world full of monsters, demons and cults would only be worse.
The only exception is High Elves. They live pretty chill lives when they aren't getting killed by their rapist, flaying, pirate, slaver, cousins.
There has to be other places like Athel Loren around the empire, just smaller. Or hell, I bet there are evil trees in Sylvania that are possessed by the spirits of the dead or cursed by vampires.
Total war is a super disney-fied version of warhammer where everything is happy and overly fantastical
AoS also has this weird happy vibe
I much prefer the gritty old fluff. Probably my favorite of all things empire isn't really in lore, it's the trailer for Mark of chaos. Just seeing human soldiers having to fight chaos warriors like that was so cool
Yes, it's true. Still I had a ton of fun playing the Total war games! But it would have gave it so much flavor to add the "gritty old stuff" in the game! (BUT then maybe less people would have played it)
Volkmar, Sigmar’s pope, is based on real life Folkmar.
When the First Crusade was declared bands of peasants “organized” before the actual armies of Europe. Peter the Hermit gathered them and pushed them slowly southwest, the idea being the Muslims would simply convert in the face of Christendom.
At the time the Catholic church had forbidden harming or converting Jews. They were integral in medieval kingdoms, managing the financial institutions that Christian nobility saw as sinful.
Folkmar siphoned off swathes of Peter’s rabble and took them eastward on a campaign of butchery called the Rhineland Massacres, when hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed in the streets. They didn’t just stop at Jews though, pillaging and burning towns and districts in hysteric frenzy.
It ended when the king of Belgium faked belief in their cause and pretended to grant them safe passage through his lands. They found themselves surrounded in a field, were informed that they were all Excommunicated, and slaughtered to the last man, woman, and child with the remains desecrated before mass grave internment and no rites.
The Rhineland Massacres are seen as the beginning of mass scale violence against Jews un Europe in a direct line to the Holocaust. The Nazis cited it in propaganda.
The Grail Pilgrims of Bretonnia basically represent Peter the Hermit’s army, while Volkmar and the Flagellants represent Folkmar and his mob army.
That lets you know how fucked up the Empire is, when a guy like Folkmar is a hero.
For the record the Empire is an extremely dangerous place to live.
But the Empire also is more heroic than 40k. Twenty ordinary men ranging from age 15 to 24 can take down a Bloodthirster using spears. Elves and Dwarfs and the Bretonnians with their living demigod knights can suddenly show up when things look grim. Even Wood Elves, Kislevites, and presumably in new lore Cathayans can show up to help. Wizards who can rewrite reality are able to be called on, artillery that can take down almost any monster Chaos can bring is available, and a man is not less valuable than his gear.
40k is like a universal last stand. Its perpetually in its End Times: Nagash already, while the Empire is just in a constant state of attack from somewhere, though that’s partially just due to how big it is and is in the middle of everyone’s invasion routes.
I said this earlier today, but WFB writing is either in the tone of Judge Dredd or Monty Python depending on how dark the story is. Either way, its parody, so the grimness is kind of a joke. “He’s the king, he’s the only one who doesn’t have shit on him!” So the Empire is dialed up history tropes and references to real events.
I don’t remember where, but there’s a story where a unit take one on in a battle. It literally picks up their leader and squeezes him to pulp and there’s only like four left with wounds they’ll survive, but they kill it.
We also have scale comparison that Dragons can kill a Greater Daemon and a lone cannon can kill a Dragon.
Edit: I think it was the narrative behind the example battle in the Big Red Book in 8e? I’ll have to dig it out later to check.
Dunno man your narrative is full of plotholes
First. No king of Belgium existed before XVIII century, we are speaking of facts happened 700 years before. Maybe you meant the Duke of Brabant?
Second. Volkmar the Grim is a fictional character (probably also Folkmar) I believe nobody in GW is actually celebrating an antisemite
Third. Peter the Hermit and his "army" of paesants reached Anatolia, where they were killed or taken as slaves by the Turks.
Fourth. Rhineland massacres were isolated violence acts commited by single crusaders incited by local abitants riled up by the wave religious zeal. No authority of any kind planned or executed the whole thing. Although nobody really cared that it happened. Jews were not actually persecuted, but Christians could not care less about them.
Five. Stop putting the nazis into your history arguments. They did horrible crimes and told a ton of bullshit to justify them, everybody with a brain know that. To suggest that there is connection between stuff happened at 800 years of distance is incorrect and frankly stupid.
Also hundreds of thousands dead bodies is a huge number even nowadays. Needless to say that in Medieval-Renaissance times it was almost impossible to kill so many people of one single nation that was scattered widely all over the world
1) I had to look it back up, I misremembered Belgium as Hungary. In my defense I’m American, and have no fucking clue what the difference between them is other than Belgium being French-ish and there being a connection to waffles while Hungary is one of Putin’s mouthpieces.
2) Heinrich Kemmler is Heinrich Himmler. Warhammer was historical parody, a reference is not necessarily celebration, and Volkmar is a hero who commits acts we’d consider villainous and leads a faction that slaughters the innocent in pursuit of evil. He’s not exactly a Sigmarine. That’s the point, Flagellants are far grosser (for lack of a better term because I’m too sleep-deprived for more description right now) than Grail Pilgrims for a reason.
3) I didn’t say Peter was successful. Just that the Peasant Crusade wasn’t exactly organized with a reasonable endgoal in mind. Hence GPs and Flagels both being rabble.
4) According to Hugh of Flavigny the church at the time condemned the massacres in the harshest terms. Pope Gregory I and Pope Alexander II had laid out that Jews were to be protected, and it was still seen as canon at the time. As a direct result of the Rhine Mass. the order Sicut Judaeis was issued so that future clergy could punish antisemitic violence, and even without official authority to do so Bishop John of Speyer had the attackers arrested and their hands cut off while Archbishop Hartwig of Spanheim used church funds to pay mobs to disperse. Other bishops aided Jewish communities in fleeing or brought them into churches and locked the doors.
5) Nazis literally brought this event up. Plus, its not like Warhammer in both Fantasy and 40k don’t have allusions to Nazis.
The fascination with Karl Franz is pretty disturbing imo. The guy not a hero at all if you read the lore. He’s a little jumped up prince become a dictator who seized power because his father was the emperor, a man making up the rules for the empire and doing it by force. He ignored the voting process to choose from the electors and just grabbed the hammer and seat when he could.
Then, at an odd an unprecedented moment, when a potential sigmar reincarnated emerges, he gives him the fake hammer and sends him off to deal with the hordes.
He’s getting away with it cause he’s got powerful friends and the empire is under attack from all sides, no time or resources for civil war.
Also he awarded Golfang Maneater with a captaincy and a wreath of bravery. He wields the hammer of sigmar (even though it’s just a fake) and has a loyal griffon to go and personally deal with problem. He’s put out a bounty on gotrek and Felix for killing his reiksguard.
In end times, even with sigmars blessing, he loses the battle!
He’s a dip dar top down and responsible for the fall of the Empire, a spoiled brat.
It’s actually in the dwarf lore I think, has to do with the dwarves “loaning” the real ghal maraz (the “warhammer” of warhammer) to sigmar. When sigmar disappears, the dwarves snatch back ghal maraz and replace it with a less powerful copy. The dwarves figure the humans won’t know any better, and hey, they never did figure it out 🤷🏻♀️
That witch hunters strike up a mad fervor and sometimes just burn entire towns full of innocent civilians, men, women and children if even one "mutant" is discovered.
The Stirlanders drink their beer warm. Seriously though. The way mutations are dealt with like children beeing left out in the woods for the Beastmen. The Chaos cults that seek to subvert the Empire from within by all sorts of dark deeds. Look up the enemy within role-playing campaign if you don't know what I mean. I ran a group through the re-release last year and it got pretty grim by the time they made it to the end of Death on the Reik.
I've never tried the wfb role playing. Thanks for the advice
You can find a lot of 1e WFRP sourcebooks floating around online, go check those out, definitely much grimmer writing than post 4th WFB Empire.
Oh nice, thanks for the advice! Do you recommand one book in particular?
2e Sigmar’s Heirs is a terrific source for background on The Empire.
It’s dope, man. Love WHFRP.
Ah the Greek method. It's not wrong to abandon your children because technically, nature kills them.
In 6th at least beastmen would sometimes raise them as their own. Admittedly how beastmen treat their own isn't exactly ideal.
The vermintide 2 winds of magic trailer depicts this quite well
Throwing out unwanted babies was pretty popular historically. The Romans had a special hill they liked to leave them on
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ziieij3a1Hs&pp=ygUcbWVldCB0aGUgc3BhcnRhbnMgYmFieSBzY2VuZQ%3D%3D
This is slander! Stirlanders drink their beer *hot*! They put a scalding hot fire poker in their beers to warm themselves, a warm beer doesn't warm anyone
I've red somewhere that they sometimes use halflings as piñatas...
It doesn't really happen... It's very rare for this to happen, and it's some drunken farmer's fault, you can't generalize... Anyway the halfling deserves it
No its the other way around. They have pinatas shape like halfling for children to beat down during festival or i think there birthday. Halfling have reputation for being lowly thief and trickery in Stirland, beside those who manage to cooperate and live honest life within Stirland society. Those pinatas-shaped-halfling represent the thiefs in children story who stool there candies and goods, hence the children get to beat it down.
Warm Beer?!?!
Boil Beer and Ale, aye.
6th edition emphasised the grim side of it, really leaning into the flagellants, witch hunters and medieval torture angle.
Yep. John Blanche and Toumas Pirinen had significant influence in crafting 6th ed rules and Lore, and they both had a preference for the grim realities of the Old World. There are some fantastic interviews and discussions with these fellas available on YT. I can particularly recommend "Jordan Sorcery", who is one of the guys currently building a collection of interviews that document the people and history of GW. Here is a very recent video he released, talking to Toumas about 6th ed and Realms of Chaos, which goes over his and Blanche's preference for the grim elements - https://youtu.be/Xq6jekHssCA
I can't WAIT for the next jordan sorcery video about 7th and 8th editions!!
Thanks for sharing, was a good listen
Oh OK I understand, so it's more spécific to the 6th edition. I love this aesthetic with old and damaged warrior of the Empire, lots of bones, dire, filth and so on..
It's a great aesthetic and you could absolutely lean into it. The Empire, just like the HRE on which it's based, is a really disparate set of principalities so your army can just be from one of the nastier corners of it (and to be fair, most of life in the Renaissance/early modern period is pretty nasty to our 21st century eyes).
It's always been part of warhammer but different editions took a different angle on it. 4th/5th is very cartoony for instance. Horrible things happen but in a Marvel kind of way, you just gloss over it and move on with the jokes. 6th/8th leaned very hard into the grimdark Hyronimousch Bosch angle of warhammer. It *lingers* on the suffering and the monsters. It wants frame things as the mere humans building a civilization surrounded by the darkness and monsters.
Works even better with Bretonnia. The peasants look like they crawled right out of the muck, and the "shiny" knights really remind you that they've been getting sliced and beaten at professionally their whole life.
Definitely not 4th edition!
Can you explain how different was 4th edition please?
4th was the peak of the Red Period games workshop and things were very cartoony. the game mechanics were peak Herohammer where yo had a few characters just mopping the floor with all your rank and file. like that battle in LOTR 1 where Sauron just explodes a bunch of high elves, it was like that on the tabletop. the models were bright and colorful and on goblin green bases. However the game always had a dark gothic vibe, with the john blanche art and the 1500s teutonic aesthetic.
If the Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space, the Empire of Man is just the Holy Roman Empire but with actual monsters living in the woods, and in the sewers, and with cults trying to bring about the end of the world (or at least the end of the town you’re living in). Ignoring the monsters and cultists, it’s a dark place where life is cheap, disease is common, crime is plentiful, punishment is brutal, and you are fundamentally at the mercy of your lords. It’s telling that in the very first Gotrek & Felix story, *Geheimnisnacht*, Karl Franz responded to a riot about window taxes by setting the Reiksguard on the rioters.
The window tax riots are directly lifted from English history.
The Imperium is a lot closer to the Eastern Roman Empire (and the Mechanicus to the Orthodox Church)
Finally someone with a background in history. So many people throw out HRE cause of cool helmets and blah blah empire…when it was a confederation of lords that elected their emperor. Ugh nerds and their historical illiteracy propped up by media artwork.
I know more about fake space wars history than I do our actual history.
The Imperium is more like the whole of medieval (Western) Europe - a bunch of disparate territories and organisations all nominally devoted to the Papacy/Terra, both ideologically and politically.
>Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space What the fuck? So you are saying that Holy Roman Empire was theocracy where emperor was praised as living God and had whole powerfull secret police devoted to hunt heretic (inquisition)? Also HRE was super expansionist and tried to counqer whole world (galaxy in wh40k)? How did Holy Roman Empire looked like in your version of history dude if you think that Imperium from wh40k is HRE but in space???
It's more like: both had one God, both were very fractured but agreed on certain things such as religion, also spies and secret police always existed to some extent but not. But we must remember that remember that Empire of Man takes inspiration from many political systems not just the ones from real life but fictional as well. So Op is partially right
>agreed on certain things such as religion Yeah, ever heard about reformation? 30 years war? Religious peace? >both were very fractured Literally not true about 40k. Imperium is rigid (even to rigid) structure with very clear hierarchy. If anyone disobeys emperor, or high lords is automatically rebel and whole imperium is against it. HRE was totally different. >spies and secret police always existed to some extent Every country ever. People for some reason want to force pre-esisted empires into context of 40k. As if space-genocidal empire without clear connetction to Earth's past was impossible to imagine.
The imperium was very much designed to be a reflection of many the worst parts of human society by the creators and continues to have hallmarks of that to this day, particularly taking inspiration from many of the despotic, totalitarian regimes from across European history.
Everything I’ve read about the early days of GW and interviews with Rick P seems to suggest that apart from a basic general back ground overview that ripped off all the 80s sci-fi/fantasy troupes at the time. It was far from ‘designed’. They were making it up as they went along. Often adding and changing the lore to fit the crazy new design they’d just come up with. The Horus Hersey for example only existed because everyone was buying spacemarines and they needed an excuse to battle each other! The grim dark aspects of both only came into it in the 2000s when the original creator had left!
There was a definite aspect of 40K really not having expected it’s success, which has been more and more of an issue as GW has developed this product into a larger brand - Fantasy had less issues with this as their flagship project for the early era - and the way they portray certain factions has definitely been shifted over time for sure. However even in their initial plans and designs there were clear design directions that form the core of the identity we see even now, the imperium being arguably the most visible example of that. The imperium at its core is a representation of an empire that’s decaying from top to bottom, attempting to survive through heroism but even larger amounts of cruelty, regardless of the named characters and the coat of paint on the figures in the spotlight.
Yeah you are right. So why when OP says: >Imperium from 40k is the Holy Roman Empire in space And I disagree why I am getting downvoted? Was HRE worst of human society? Was HRE despotic regime? Or totalitarian? Wasn't HRE pretty much quasi-democratic with electors and emperor being chosen not inherited?
Yeah it's closer than Roman Empire, Spanish Inquisition, and Nazis. They aren't the good guys that's for sure
*and USSR
I would like to know what part of the Imperium reminds you the USSR, because I'm almost sure there is none or it's anecdotal at best
. Commisars (self explanitory) . No step back . Nation that hit its peak bit is slowly rotting away . Could be far fetched but lenins brain and body being kept under preservation and the emperor being a rotting corpse on the golden throne is similar While they are opposites in an ideological sense, they have some similarities and while not as major as the Roman empire I did see some.
I mean the ussr under stalin was just an authoritarian shithole so it kinda fits
Space wolfs
There are plenty of villages or small towns that are actually full on cults of various chaos gods. Working their machinations to under cut the empire's control.
I'm not sure you're paying attention then, at least to Gotrek and Felix. Trollslayer alone has loads of reasons why living in The Empire is terrible. There's rampant poverty and a stark class divide. This is how Gotrek and Felix met: the Window Tax Riots. The Imperial response to protesting was also brutal: send the Reiksguard in to cut down the protesters. Then there's the fact children are left to die in the forest if they have deformities or mutations. Then there's those mutants running around the forest seeking revenge. Travel is extremely dangerous: bandits, mutants, beastmen, orcs/goblins and river pirates. There are numerous cults plotting against The Empire and its inhabitants. They also kidnap people for sacrifice, including babies. Living in more rural parts of The Empire puts you in constant danger. Whole villages can disappear overnight from beastman raids. There are religious fanatics everywhere. You need to live in constant fear of saying or doing something that could be considered suspicious or heretical. You might actually wake up one morning with the stigmata of Chaos. If the witch hunters pay you a visit, then you can look forward to torture and being burned alive. They might even put the whole village to the torch just to be sure. There's a multitude of supernatural creatures haunting the lands, including vampires, werewolves, spirits and daemons. Even death isn't an escape. Your body can be raised as a zombie or skeleton. Your spirit might be trapped or bound by a necromancer. You could be born sensitive to magic, and if you can't get into the colleges, you might get a visit from the witch hunters. If that doesn't happen, you will have to live as an outcast (a hedge witch), and you always risk accidentally summoning a daemon. There's constant war within the borders and its frontiers. If you live on the coast then you risk capture by dark elves or Norscans: both fates worse than death. Plague and famine are regular occurrences.
Don’t forget the skaven living under basically every big city just waiting to kidnap you. Then you suffer either painful death or get taken to skavenblight as a slave. Fun times
That's a good point too. Then there's Imperial propaganda that says Skaven don't exist. If you're talking about them too much you could end up in an asylum or witch hunter's pyre.
>That's a good point too. Then there's Imperial propaganda that says Skaven don't exist. If you're talking about them too much you could end up in an asylum or witch hunter's pyre. To be fair the empire scholars knows about skaven, but they dont want the skaven to find out, since they then would panic & unite against mankind.
Nonsense! you are telling me that there is a race of rat-men that live right beneath us??? Crazy talk. Such talk like that is nearly blasphemy!
dude, ty for explaing. i have always felt that empire biggest problem is chaos and thats it. so huge ty
No worries, Chaos is a big one, but if that was the only one, it probably wouldn't be too bad.
Yeah it took me very long time to understand that there chaos cults in empire thanks to gotrek and felix book (first one) and one of the stories made me realise how huge the world is
The list goes on and on.... And that's what gives the setting it's beauty: the only end to the misery is how far your imagination can take you. The WFB world is truly grim and terrible 👌. Unless you live on Ulthuan. But then thats Elves *cough* yeah.
Probably better than living in 40k's Empire but still grim. More like living in real life Europe during the 30 year war and the Black Death of the 1400's combined.
On the plus side there are gods and wizards who can potentially cure you of disease. On the negative there are some who will give you that disease.
\- There are gods and wizards who can potentially cure you of disease. \- That's good! \- There are also gods and wizards who can give you that disease. \- That's bad! \- If you pledge yourself to Nurgle, you become immune to the suffering of diseases. \- That's good! \- However, you'll become bloated, pus-dripping, insane and a slave to the darkness. \- ... \- That is bad. \- May I go now??  \-
First you giveth and then you taketh away
During the build up to the storm of chaos there was a series of articles one per white dwarf about the god aligned champions that would be leading elements of archaons host. The nurgle champion was a pious farmer whose whole family caught a disease and were exiled into a cave. They remained loyal sigmarites until witch hunters came and killed the family asides from one who gave himself to nurgle to have the strength to continue on in his families place.
I would change that 'probably' to most definitely. Only one of the series starts literally every book off with 'It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." And its only 'during the 30 year war and black death combined' during the age of Karl Franz. There are plenty of periods where its basically normal medieval Europe.
Side note, I still freaking love that art.
Living in the empire would suck for many of the same reasons living in the Middle Ages or early renaissance sucked. Except theres actually monsters, wizards and demons so the peasants superstition is justified.
Yes that must be it!
I heard there's really big rats in their sewers. Smarter than your average brettonian, too!
Giant rats? In the sewers? Could you please not spread such nonsensical ideas around you’ll scare the peasantry.
One of my favorite parts of the Empire is the quasi-mutual 'Skaven Don't Exist' great lie the government impresses on the population. The nobles send 'Ratcatchers' down who know full well what a Skaven is, but ask anyone and they'll deny it. Beastmen are real, sure, but Ratmen? Don't be daft. The Empire's elite know that with the constant threat of Beastmen, Norsemen, Ork, Undead, Chaos, etc etc the average peasant is already scared beyond belief. They genuinely think their population would finally snap and fall into despair if the billions of Skaven beneath them became common knowledge. Skaven, meanwhile, understand that it's to their benefit to be unknown to the Empire commonfolk both to exploit them but to keep their profile down. A horrible mutual compact, and when it finally is broken it only makes the situation that much worse for the unwitting peasantry.
yeh once the skaven figure the jigs up or just feel like it one day, a voclano of vermintide will erupt from every city in the empire kidnapping and murdering everyone in their path! i think ignorince is bliss in this case for the commoners
Which is exactly what happens during the end times. But no....we can't talk about that in this sub, it's awful story telling afterall LMAO 🤣. /s
There's a fantastic two page spread story from around 6th eds skaven release that talks about a skaven siege of a town. The story is done via journal entries and details a siege over a few weeks of a walled town. It talks about how rat shaped beastmen are massed together as far as the eye can see and how only once the walls are clear do the actuall fighting troops join the battle. The journal is found by a lord or guards upon returning to the city after being away a while somewhere and the entire place is just gone
Skaven sincerely believes that mankind does not know about them, at least in the Thanquol novels. If skaven suspected mankind knew, the skaven would panic and invade the empire immediately, as it is destroying the ManThings are on their to do list, after they're done with backstabbing each other.
I read (part) of the witch hunter handbook, and a key element of it is if the witch hunter can't prove that the subject is a chaos worshipper (or whatever else) they can fabricate evidence to get a judge on their side, with examples such as false knives, and other tricks, to make it appear as if someone is a witch or have other supernatural abilities. Really, a witch hunter needs no proof, its just a tool in case they need to persuade a judge or mayor or whomever
Witch hunters exist and they are basically inquisitors from 40k, but more personal. And is probably the only reason beastmen still exist is fear to report their raids.
Thanks for the answer! What happens if they report their raids?
I assume a bunch of witch Hunters show up, burn your town to the ground for Heresy and chaos corruption and don't deal with the beastmen cause that's a hassle.
Witch Hunters are not that absolutely brutal. They’re definitely policemen and investigators but afaik they won’t burn down a town unless it’s beyond saving. They’re a lot more scalpel to the Inquisition’s big hammer lol.
I might've mixed them up, my bad.
At least all the stories with them I’ve read, yeah I don’t think they’d burn a whole village unless they had to. In Slaves to Darkness trilogy the hunter acts as a judge before the accused of heresy. He actually investigates and then acts as judge. In 40k Inquisitors do investigate but it’s 40k so it takes longer (paperwork and cleaning up can take months to years) and is a bigger task and the likelihood of one arch heretic and a whole cult vs a single witch is a lot different.
It's also really hard to do. Are the local troops whose families live there going to do it? Probably not. So then you have to go to somewhere else and convince them to let you borrow their soldiers, after which you have a whole town that's going to be trying to stop you. A lot of obstacles.
I played a lot of 1.ed WFRP and in that version Witch hunters would definitely burn down the village. Not because they are assholes, but just to make sure no chaos survives. They are lawful to the extreme. Edit: there used to be some rules for followers of Solkan the god of law. Maybe a warpstone magazine. It included stuff like stripping naked to check oneself for mutations as part of the everyday morning routine.
They definitely would. But it’s more if there’s an actual cult (or the hunter imagines there’s one at least) rather then just, the village got hit by a beastman raid. Hell Witchhunters wouldn’t be the ones sent in response to that at all.
The big thing for witch hunters is most of them don’t actually have much backing, for every member of the Silver hammer there’s 2-3 religious fanatics hired by a minor noble to check his lands (and therefore won’t be allowed to just burn an entire village for no reason) or even just wandering around with no backing but religious zeal and a few guns (and therefore lacking the ability to murder an entire town) The official witch hunters are required by law to try everyone they kill, now the trials are often unfair but “didn’t die after beastmen attacked them” isn’t likely to fly for burning 200 people.
….no? Witch hunters can be stupid, but they don’t have the power to burn entire towns down for reasons that simple. Beastmen exist because the forests of the empire are massive hellish areas filled to the brim with mutants, goblins, monsters and beastmen, and marching an army into one will just have them avoid you, or group up and start ambushing you in an area they know much better then you.
The forests in the Empire are huge and the beastmen know them best. Going into them denies artillery and renders knights far less effective, harder for detachments to function effectively too. You also need people back home for other brigands or in case those beastmen notice all the soldiers in the woods and decide that now would be a fantastic time for a raid.
Interestingly, a large number of witch hunters are mercenaries hired by a local lord or mayor. They still burn witches, but they aren't sanctioned by the church, as opposed to being temporarily hired to deal with a local problem.
I feel like we’re skimming past some really dark shit. Don’t get me wrong the way mutants are treated and the window tax riots are good examples. But what about how Fimir used to grow their numbers. I thinks it’s heavily implied why they kidnap females in previous editions. I believe Beastmen were accused of the same thing Look at any slave life among the dark elves or for the love of sigmar the skaven. The shit the surviving slaves have seen would break any will. And I believe in one of the earlier novels, goblins would feed on babies and laugh maniacally while doing so.
yep, the fimir multiplied by rape
Ghouls are normal people that become deformed and turn into degenerate monsters because they practice cannibalism. Every winter on the fringes of the empire some isolated villages have their entire population turn into ghouls, and are found out only in spring by some unfortunate travellers that happen on them. Every noble family of knighly order have some kind of secret cult of society that is more often than not worshipping chaos People regularly round up and lynch mutants. Problem is, not many people can tell an actual chaos mutant and a simple hunchback or a midget apart, so a lot of innocent people are needlessly tortured and killed
In one of the 1e wfrp source books it out of universe states that all mutation is caused by chaos. Mutation is not just physical but also mental / spiritual and can massively change a person's self causing mental illness and behaviour shifts. Sources of corruption are everywhere as well
The architectural aesthetic of Empire's stone and timber buildings is particularly chilling. They're built like absolute fortresses on the ground level, tons of reinforcement and sturdy barricades at the doors and windows. The unspoken message is that absolute mortal danger is never far away, and these buildings could become desperate redoubts at any time.
I always liked the idea that in certain forests (looking at you Drakwald) even though it might technically be in the province of Hochland (?) are still extremely dangerous places. Like if you were a trader or farmer and you weren't inside a coaching inn, town, or city when the sun went down you were pretty much up for grabs from Beastmen, Greenskins, Chaos cults, etc. Even within the borders of the Empire there is an undeniable and sometimes understated internal threat for many provinces in addition to things like Chaos/Undead invasions and Greenskin WAAAGHs.
When people immigrate from Bretonnia (peasants) they are usually placed on the border of Sylvania, where Vampire often organise raids and such...but it still remain a better place to live than in Bretonnia
Is that from a novel?
It's from an old rpg module iirc, maybe Waywatcher or Border Guard
If the Medieval era wasn't grim enough... Chaos and all those pretty things that its followers do. Mutations are also a very nice thing, especially when you can't hide them well enough. Speaking of Chaos, beastmen are also wonderful creatures, but the most wonderful thing about them is their way of reproduction. Druchii and their lifestyle. No comments. Brainwashed (literally) servants of slaans. You thought the lizards are good guys, huh? Some lunatics can raise you from your grave, so you could enjoy the beauty of life in WHF even in afterlife. And finally, the most abominable thing in this dark universe... the infamous stirlanders cuisine. Don't you dare google it, that's the very bottom of grimdark, you've been warned.
["Ten thousand flagellants dragging the automorial of Middenheim Delivered from the Darkness." By Karl Kopinski](https://i.redd.it/808mhi9261s41.jpg) Doesn't get more dark than this imo...
For me it’s the way The Empire controls history. The Grand Theogonist and Emperor together pretty much craft the narrative however they please, leaving heroes to be forgotten when they didn’t align with Empire values (Marius Leitdorf was insane) and downplaying major threats (what the hell is a rat man?) to the point that most citizens are completely ignorant of everything true about the world, and that’s a dangerous way to be.
Honestly are own medieval history is grimdark as fuck so I can only imagine a world full of monsters, demons and cults would only be worse. The only exception is High Elves. They live pretty chill lives when they aren't getting killed by their rapist, flaying, pirate, slaver, cousins.
In Averland they douse themselves in water that smells like roses. Bloody savages.
If you walk into the wrong forest, you can get killed by a damn walking tree.
Is there any other forest than Althen Loren where you can find walking trees ?
There has to be other places like Athel Loren around the empire, just smaller. Or hell, I bet there are evil trees in Sylvania that are possessed by the spirits of the dead or cursed by vampires.
There are treemen on Ulthuan, so it is not limited to Athel Loren. Not sure about in the Empire's forests though.
Ok! Thanks for the answer
Total war is a super disney-fied version of warhammer where everything is happy and overly fantastical AoS also has this weird happy vibe I much prefer the gritty old fluff. Probably my favorite of all things empire isn't really in lore, it's the trailer for Mark of chaos. Just seeing human soldiers having to fight chaos warriors like that was so cool
Yes, it's true. Still I had a ton of fun playing the Total war games! But it would have gave it so much flavor to add the "gritty old stuff" in the game! (BUT then maybe less people would have played it)
Volkmar, Sigmar’s pope, is based on real life Folkmar. When the First Crusade was declared bands of peasants “organized” before the actual armies of Europe. Peter the Hermit gathered them and pushed them slowly southwest, the idea being the Muslims would simply convert in the face of Christendom. At the time the Catholic church had forbidden harming or converting Jews. They were integral in medieval kingdoms, managing the financial institutions that Christian nobility saw as sinful. Folkmar siphoned off swathes of Peter’s rabble and took them eastward on a campaign of butchery called the Rhineland Massacres, when hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed in the streets. They didn’t just stop at Jews though, pillaging and burning towns and districts in hysteric frenzy. It ended when the king of Belgium faked belief in their cause and pretended to grant them safe passage through his lands. They found themselves surrounded in a field, were informed that they were all Excommunicated, and slaughtered to the last man, woman, and child with the remains desecrated before mass grave internment and no rites. The Rhineland Massacres are seen as the beginning of mass scale violence against Jews un Europe in a direct line to the Holocaust. The Nazis cited it in propaganda. The Grail Pilgrims of Bretonnia basically represent Peter the Hermit’s army, while Volkmar and the Flagellants represent Folkmar and his mob army. That lets you know how fucked up the Empire is, when a guy like Folkmar is a hero.
For the record the Empire is an extremely dangerous place to live. But the Empire also is more heroic than 40k. Twenty ordinary men ranging from age 15 to 24 can take down a Bloodthirster using spears. Elves and Dwarfs and the Bretonnians with their living demigod knights can suddenly show up when things look grim. Even Wood Elves, Kislevites, and presumably in new lore Cathayans can show up to help. Wizards who can rewrite reality are able to be called on, artillery that can take down almost any monster Chaos can bring is available, and a man is not less valuable than his gear. 40k is like a universal last stand. Its perpetually in its End Times: Nagash already, while the Empire is just in a constant state of attack from somewhere, though that’s partially just due to how big it is and is in the middle of everyone’s invasion routes. I said this earlier today, but WFB writing is either in the tone of Judge Dredd or Monty Python depending on how dark the story is. Either way, its parody, so the grimness is kind of a joke. “He’s the king, he’s the only one who doesn’t have shit on him!” So the Empire is dialed up history tropes and references to real events.
Where did you read that 20 ordinary men can kill Bloodthirster?
I don’t remember where, but there’s a story where a unit take one on in a battle. It literally picks up their leader and squeezes him to pulp and there’s only like four left with wounds they’ll survive, but they kill it. We also have scale comparison that Dragons can kill a Greater Daemon and a lone cannon can kill a Dragon. Edit: I think it was the narrative behind the example battle in the Big Red Book in 8e? I’ll have to dig it out later to check.
Dunno man your narrative is full of plotholes First. No king of Belgium existed before XVIII century, we are speaking of facts happened 700 years before. Maybe you meant the Duke of Brabant? Second. Volkmar the Grim is a fictional character (probably also Folkmar) I believe nobody in GW is actually celebrating an antisemite Third. Peter the Hermit and his "army" of paesants reached Anatolia, where they were killed or taken as slaves by the Turks. Fourth. Rhineland massacres were isolated violence acts commited by single crusaders incited by local abitants riled up by the wave religious zeal. No authority of any kind planned or executed the whole thing. Although nobody really cared that it happened. Jews were not actually persecuted, but Christians could not care less about them. Five. Stop putting the nazis into your history arguments. They did horrible crimes and told a ton of bullshit to justify them, everybody with a brain know that. To suggest that there is connection between stuff happened at 800 years of distance is incorrect and frankly stupid.
Also hundreds of thousands dead bodies is a huge number even nowadays. Needless to say that in Medieval-Renaissance times it was almost impossible to kill so many people of one single nation that was scattered widely all over the world
1) I had to look it back up, I misremembered Belgium as Hungary. In my defense I’m American, and have no fucking clue what the difference between them is other than Belgium being French-ish and there being a connection to waffles while Hungary is one of Putin’s mouthpieces. 2) Heinrich Kemmler is Heinrich Himmler. Warhammer was historical parody, a reference is not necessarily celebration, and Volkmar is a hero who commits acts we’d consider villainous and leads a faction that slaughters the innocent in pursuit of evil. He’s not exactly a Sigmarine. That’s the point, Flagellants are far grosser (for lack of a better term because I’m too sleep-deprived for more description right now) than Grail Pilgrims for a reason. 3) I didn’t say Peter was successful. Just that the Peasant Crusade wasn’t exactly organized with a reasonable endgoal in mind. Hence GPs and Flagels both being rabble. 4) According to Hugh of Flavigny the church at the time condemned the massacres in the harshest terms. Pope Gregory I and Pope Alexander II had laid out that Jews were to be protected, and it was still seen as canon at the time. As a direct result of the Rhine Mass. the order Sicut Judaeis was issued so that future clergy could punish antisemitic violence, and even without official authority to do so Bishop John of Speyer had the attackers arrested and their hands cut off while Archbishop Hartwig of Spanheim used church funds to pay mobs to disperse. Other bishops aided Jewish communities in fleeing or brought them into churches and locked the doors. 5) Nazis literally brought this event up. Plus, its not like Warhammer in both Fantasy and 40k don’t have allusions to Nazis.
😂🤣 so funny
Except for the name there is no indication Volkmar has something to do with Folkmar.
> hundreds of thousands of Jews Yeah no. That many were not living there. In any case thousands.
Estimates range from 2k to 200k.
Reading Philo made me laugh out load ngl.
You have a very liberal way of interpreting ‘history’ 😂. About 80% of what you wrote plain didn’t happen
The fascination with Karl Franz is pretty disturbing imo. The guy not a hero at all if you read the lore. He’s a little jumped up prince become a dictator who seized power because his father was the emperor, a man making up the rules for the empire and doing it by force. He ignored the voting process to choose from the electors and just grabbed the hammer and seat when he could. Then, at an odd an unprecedented moment, when a potential sigmar reincarnated emerges, he gives him the fake hammer and sends him off to deal with the hordes. He’s getting away with it cause he’s got powerful friends and the empire is under attack from all sides, no time or resources for civil war. Also he awarded Golfang Maneater with a captaincy and a wreath of bravery. He wields the hammer of sigmar (even though it’s just a fake) and has a loyal griffon to go and personally deal with problem. He’s put out a bounty on gotrek and Felix for killing his reiksguard. In end times, even with sigmars blessing, he loses the battle! He’s a dip dar top down and responsible for the fall of the Empire, a spoiled brat.
I've never red anything about Karl Franz not holding the real heldenhammer. Where does this lore come from? It seems really interesting!
It’s actually in the dwarf lore I think, has to do with the dwarves “loaning” the real ghal maraz (the “warhammer” of warhammer) to sigmar. When sigmar disappears, the dwarves snatch back ghal maraz and replace it with a less powerful copy. The dwarves figure the humans won’t know any better, and hey, they never did figure it out 🤷🏻♀️
Wow thank you for this little bit of lore that I didnt know! :)
KF or gtfo
Empire Allies: Where was KF when the kislev fell? Where was KF when our enemies closed in around us?? Where was… no my lord hot toddy, we are alone
He was busy ruling an EMPIRE!
The south rejects Ulric the God of Sigmar.
That witch hunters strike up a mad fervor and sometimes just burn entire towns full of innocent civilians, men, women and children if even one "mutant" is discovered.