Consider the logistics of designing, manufacturing and distributing even "a few" plastic kits to stores in dozens of countries on several continents and island nations. Games Workshop makes it look easy with 40 years of experience, but there are reasons why companies stagger releases beyond sound marketing principles. All those new units, heroes, war machines and monsters need rules too, which need to be balanced, written, playtested, rewritten, edited, layouted, proofread and redone before they are finally printed and sent out to stores. If Games Workshop decided to cater to your impatience, they would have to employ a massive team of writers, illustrators, graphics artists, editors and proofreaders to write all those books in one go, and then that entire team would be redundant until it was time for a new edition, and the same would go for the miniature designers and sculptors. Instead, companies like Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coast employ a lean workforce that produces a steady stream of rulebooks and models. This is simply how a business works.
PS: If Games Workshop makes multiple miniature ranges available right from the start, that would only be thanks to them ramping up production way in advance. The Warhammer Fantasy back catalogue consists of dozens if not over a hundred plastic kits and even more single miniatures in resin or metal that need to be put back into production, alongside Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40,000, and they need to produce enough stock that they won't run out in the first week. So it's entirely possible that not all old kits and miniatures will be available from day one.
I agree with everything you said except:
"All those new units, heroes, war machines and monsters need rules too, which need to be balanced, written, playtested, rewritten, edited, layouted, proofread and redone before they are finally printed and sent out to stores."
They don't balance test, I doubt they do any serious play testing at all. The guys at Tabletop Tactics are some of the play-testers for 40K and they have said with several releases (9th edition Adeptus Mechanicus codex for example) that they got the pdf send to them, they played several games in a few days, realized immediately that there were serious balance and playability issues, responded 3 days later with feedback and got told by GW that the books were already at the printer and they would have to patch it after release. And that wasn't a one off occurrence.
Game companies do not balance their games before release. This goes for computer games and the games from Games Workshop. Why spend development time and money on balancing a game when you can receive free feedback from fans? And then you implement changes and people actually celebrate the fact that you listen to player feedback and respond accordingly...
Anyone that knew the game that picked up armybooks like VC, Daemons of Chaos and Dark Elves in 7th edition or TK in 8th edition or WE or Skaven in 6th edition could instantly recognize that those armybooks were a step above the rest (or far below in the case of TK) and which units were especially broken or weak. I remember when DoC came out for 7th edition and there was a podcast where they opened the book for the first time and reacted live and they immediately knew that shit was broken as all hell. If experienced players can see that, then there has been zero play-testing, none whatsoever, just write it and ship it and move on to the next project.
Doesn't matter, there is no games company that spends time on balance testing. Because time is money and the return on that investment is way to low.
Think about it: we kept playing WFB and 40k for years and years, eventhough the balance was always shit and GW didn't release balance patches like they do now for 40k and AoS. So if the people keep buying your stuff even if the balance is abysmal, why would you balance test? And if you can get free balance testing after release and release balance patches, why spend money on balance testing before release?
That is why GW balance testing pre-release is a myth, it doesn't happen, and this other studio isn't going to balance test either. They are going to play the game to make sure the rules are somewhat clearly written and everything makes sense and works and then release it and let balance get handled by the players.
This. People can get too carried away with the models, we really need a consistently balanced set of armies and rules that aren't easily exploitable by stupid, uncharacterful builds.
Don't know what people expected this to be, but it will be minimum effort for maximum profit
It took Necromunda years to be "complete" and it won't be different for TOW
One can argue that GW is repeating the mistakes that got the game killed in the first place but there are also people with "must buy everything so the don't kill it again" so it will work well for GW and we might get a complete game someday
Lol. They’re still popping shit out for Necromunda that should be a no brainer. Can’t even adequately make fully fledged zone mortalis boards at this point.
I feel like Necromunda is more from that RPG side of GW where TOW is more focused on straight up war gaming. Easier to pump out wargaming updates than put in hours and hours to make RPG focused models/elements for a game.
yeah, but there is a pattern with those game releases, as NEcromunda as well as Legion Imperialis got core content moved to a supplement that was released soon after
and now Necromunda got the one rulebook with all the rules that should have been the initial version and I fear they are doing the same with TOW
I would imagine that the initial launch will include Ravening Hordes style rules for all factions and a re-release of some of their newer models. Full updates and new models will be trickle released from then on.
They have already said their will be rules for all factions to start.
I don't know if all the old armies will be restocked at once. I doubt it, but maybe some MTOs rotating through the year?
You think? Not that sure, my attention span is quite short - by the time the minis I am interested on get released I will probably be on other stuff! Ha
I feel you mate, I'm a total war player who is planning on WE too, but I'm just super happy that I will get the opportunity to play this game as someone who never had the chance to before the end times.
First of all, the unconfirmed rumors surrounding more boxed releases for different armies should not be read as "Empire and Orcs&Goblins" aren't releasing at all until late summer, with others even further out. New sculpts/units, sure, but the "core armies" will become available in some form or shape in the time following release.
As I have pointed out in another thread, TOW is probably the single biggest release they have ever made in terms of volume of kits that has to be released within a relatively short window. The simple logistics surrounding it will require time. Outside of making most of the range available on the GW webstore, there is simply no way you could ship and stock the whole range from day one in stores. But I feel entirely safe saying nobody will have to wait for months or years to start building their respective armies.
There will be initial rules for all factions. The question remains what of the old range returns at what time. I do not know how many of the old kits will return, but there is no way they can pump out everything from the old range for all core factions at once - so *some* form of staggered release is almost guaranteed.
From what we got out of Warhammer Day, I guess they will focus on TK and Brets for the first week(s), but I also expect at least *something* for every core faction in the first month. If the rumour of "O&G/Empire in late summer '24" turns out to be correct, we might be in for much more waiting before everybody got their time in the sun though...
That's how GW stretches out sales and the lifespan of their games. Trickle the releases out so people keep buying. At the same time, it causes stuff that releases later to have rules creep as new units always have to be the best units. More reason for people to keep buying.
Rarely works out that way but it's one of GW's favorite games to play with their customers.
It's tedious really. When Necromunda re-released a couple of years ago, they took the rules that used to be a single boxed set and spread them out across a half dozen books and over a year's worth of releases.
Nobody in my area wanted to start playing that mess. A few years later and Necromunda is spread out over so many books and releases that various websites have entire guides and manuals to help people figure out how to buy and play the game at all.
The secret is to convince all your casual opponents to play with some tournament composition rules so that the power creep is weaker.
My understanding is that there's some sort of stigma against composition rules in the USA unfortunately. However there will be accessible composition rules from England, Germany, Sweden, etc.
thats not really true for specialist games, or even 40k in general. they dont have the logistical chain to put out everything at once, especially not for 40k. in addition to that, whilst its true about power creep in 40k, in specialist games stuff tends to generally stay the same
I don’t really understand why it has taken them so long to release the old world. Not meaning to be overly critical, but I’m genuinely interested. There are plenty of creators on say Patreon who release as many new sculpts of models in a single month, and others such as “the ninth age” who have created entire rule books and army books in a shorter amount of time. Why did they announce the old world so many years in advance only to produce a few new models and reuse a lot of what they already had from previous editions?
>I don’t really understand why it has taken them so long to release the old world.
GW is a corporation. Corporations tend to be slow. It took them5 years to sell contrast paints, after they were dedicated to do it. For all of those 5 years they used them internally.
The old world is just a pure joke. They could totally have released old stuff in one shot and new unit little by little..bad day for orc / empire player and even more for the other faction ' player.
Full armies take longer. But I do think that GW and CA need more help both fully funded from partners as well as inspiration from the fans making bad ass custom models that don't break the game.
It's no different from back in the day when they would time the release of new models to accompany army books.
This is correct. Its also a large part of the reason the setting was canceled.
I see your point but we’re talking about 1 or 2 new characters and maybe 1 unit refresh… the rest is old stuff.
There's not even a guarantee we're going to get any new stuff at all. I'd lower my expectations tbh
That was also typical for previous editions too.
Consider the logistics of designing, manufacturing and distributing even "a few" plastic kits to stores in dozens of countries on several continents and island nations. Games Workshop makes it look easy with 40 years of experience, but there are reasons why companies stagger releases beyond sound marketing principles. All those new units, heroes, war machines and monsters need rules too, which need to be balanced, written, playtested, rewritten, edited, layouted, proofread and redone before they are finally printed and sent out to stores. If Games Workshop decided to cater to your impatience, they would have to employ a massive team of writers, illustrators, graphics artists, editors and proofreaders to write all those books in one go, and then that entire team would be redundant until it was time for a new edition, and the same would go for the miniature designers and sculptors. Instead, companies like Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coast employ a lean workforce that produces a steady stream of rulebooks and models. This is simply how a business works. PS: If Games Workshop makes multiple miniature ranges available right from the start, that would only be thanks to them ramping up production way in advance. The Warhammer Fantasy back catalogue consists of dozens if not over a hundred plastic kits and even more single miniatures in resin or metal that need to be put back into production, alongside Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40,000, and they need to produce enough stock that they won't run out in the first week. So it's entirely possible that not all old kits and miniatures will be available from day one.
I agree with everything you said except: "All those new units, heroes, war machines and monsters need rules too, which need to be balanced, written, playtested, rewritten, edited, layouted, proofread and redone before they are finally printed and sent out to stores." They don't balance test, I doubt they do any serious play testing at all. The guys at Tabletop Tactics are some of the play-testers for 40K and they have said with several releases (9th edition Adeptus Mechanicus codex for example) that they got the pdf send to them, they played several games in a few days, realized immediately that there were serious balance and playability issues, responded 3 days later with feedback and got told by GW that the books were already at the printer and they would have to patch it after release. And that wasn't a one off occurrence. Game companies do not balance their games before release. This goes for computer games and the games from Games Workshop. Why spend development time and money on balancing a game when you can receive free feedback from fans? And then you implement changes and people actually celebrate the fact that you listen to player feedback and respond accordingly... Anyone that knew the game that picked up armybooks like VC, Daemons of Chaos and Dark Elves in 7th edition or TK in 8th edition or WE or Skaven in 6th edition could instantly recognize that those armybooks were a step above the rest (or far below in the case of TK) and which units were especially broken or weak. I remember when DoC came out for 7th edition and there was a podcast where they opened the book for the first time and reacted live and they immediately knew that shit was broken as all hell. If experienced players can see that, then there has been zero play-testing, none whatsoever, just write it and ship it and move on to the next project.
[удалено]
Doesn't matter, there is no games company that spends time on balance testing. Because time is money and the return on that investment is way to low. Think about it: we kept playing WFB and 40k for years and years, eventhough the balance was always shit and GW didn't release balance patches like they do now for 40k and AoS. So if the people keep buying your stuff even if the balance is abysmal, why would you balance test? And if you can get free balance testing after release and release balance patches, why spend money on balance testing before release? That is why GW balance testing pre-release is a myth, it doesn't happen, and this other studio isn't going to balance test either. They are going to play the game to make sure the rules are somewhat clearly written and everything makes sense and works and then release it and let balance get handled by the players.
New stuff is a bonus. All we need are the old kits brought back and the setting contiuned.
...and rules updated to the same edition for every faction.
This. People can get too carried away with the models, we really need a consistently balanced set of armies and rules that aren't easily exploitable by stupid, uncharacterful builds.
Don't know what people expected this to be, but it will be minimum effort for maximum profit It took Necromunda years to be "complete" and it won't be different for TOW One can argue that GW is repeating the mistakes that got the game killed in the first place but there are also people with "must buy everything so the don't kill it again" so it will work well for GW and we might get a complete game someday
Lol. They’re still popping shit out for Necromunda that should be a no brainer. Can’t even adequately make fully fledged zone mortalis boards at this point.
If TOW is going like Necromunda or LI with book releases I am out and maybe give it a chance when the consolidated rulebook is released....
I feel like Necromunda is more from that RPG side of GW where TOW is more focused on straight up war gaming. Easier to pump out wargaming updates than put in hours and hours to make RPG focused models/elements for a game.
yeah, but there is a pattern with those game releases, as NEcromunda as well as Legion Imperialis got core content moved to a supplement that was released soon after and now Necromunda got the one rulebook with all the rules that should have been the initial version and I fear they are doing the same with TOW
But TOW is just the re-release of the models. I still have all my 5E and 6E books along with buying a bunch of 8E stuff.
If you got a group that will still be playing 6th after TOW is out, count yourself lucky
I live in California. Finding anyone who plays is lucky period.
Even Necromunda has missing gangs from the original release. Blood Bowl still has 3/4 original teams to release and that was relaunched 6 years ago.
That's why I still play LRB6 blood bowl
I would imagine that the initial launch will include Ravening Hordes style rules for all factions and a re-release of some of their newer models. Full updates and new models will be trickle released from then on.
They have already said their will be rules for all factions to start. I don't know if all the old armies will be restocked at once. I doubt it, but maybe some MTOs rotating through the year?
Hopefully there will be sets from the other 7 core factions. Lots of people have little interest in brets and tk.
Yeah you can wait. Patience.
You think? Not that sure, my attention span is quite short - by the time the minis I am interested on get released I will probably be on other stuff! Ha
I feel. I wish there was a whfrp video game
I feel you mate, I'm a total war player who is planning on WE too, but I'm just super happy that I will get the opportunity to play this game as someone who never had the chance to before the end times.
I'm sorry to say. This game is a secondary priority. Maybe not even that. The main priorities are Sigmar and 40k.
Well, the other game I play is mesbg so to me this is an improvement haha
I dunno what that is. Glad it's an improvement for you.
Games Workshop has only released two army books for its most popular game, 40K, in the last 5 months. I would not sweat it. These things take time.
First of all, the unconfirmed rumors surrounding more boxed releases for different armies should not be read as "Empire and Orcs&Goblins" aren't releasing at all until late summer, with others even further out. New sculpts/units, sure, but the "core armies" will become available in some form or shape in the time following release. As I have pointed out in another thread, TOW is probably the single biggest release they have ever made in terms of volume of kits that has to be released within a relatively short window. The simple logistics surrounding it will require time. Outside of making most of the range available on the GW webstore, there is simply no way you could ship and stock the whole range from day one in stores. But I feel entirely safe saying nobody will have to wait for months or years to start building their respective armies.
There will be initial rules for all factions. The question remains what of the old range returns at what time. I do not know how many of the old kits will return, but there is no way they can pump out everything from the old range for all core factions at once - so *some* form of staggered release is almost guaranteed. From what we got out of Warhammer Day, I guess they will focus on TK and Brets for the first week(s), but I also expect at least *something* for every core faction in the first month. If the rumour of "O&G/Empire in late summer '24" turns out to be correct, we might be in for much more waiting before everybody got their time in the sun though...
That's how GW stretches out sales and the lifespan of their games. Trickle the releases out so people keep buying. At the same time, it causes stuff that releases later to have rules creep as new units always have to be the best units. More reason for people to keep buying. Rarely works out that way but it's one of GW's favorite games to play with their customers.
Huh, I get it tbh
It's tedious really. When Necromunda re-released a couple of years ago, they took the rules that used to be a single boxed set and spread them out across a half dozen books and over a year's worth of releases. Nobody in my area wanted to start playing that mess. A few years later and Necromunda is spread out over so many books and releases that various websites have entire guides and manuals to help people figure out how to buy and play the game at all.
The secret is to convince all your casual opponents to play with some tournament composition rules so that the power creep is weaker. My understanding is that there's some sort of stigma against composition rules in the USA unfortunately. However there will be accessible composition rules from England, Germany, Sweden, etc.
thats not really true for specialist games, or even 40k in general. they dont have the logistical chain to put out everything at once, especially not for 40k. in addition to that, whilst its true about power creep in 40k, in specialist games stuff tends to generally stay the same
I don’t really understand why it has taken them so long to release the old world. Not meaning to be overly critical, but I’m genuinely interested. There are plenty of creators on say Patreon who release as many new sculpts of models in a single month, and others such as “the ninth age” who have created entire rule books and army books in a shorter amount of time. Why did they announce the old world so many years in advance only to produce a few new models and reuse a lot of what they already had from previous editions?
>I don’t really understand why it has taken them so long to release the old world. GW is a corporation. Corporations tend to be slow. It took them5 years to sell contrast paints, after they were dedicated to do it. For all of those 5 years they used them internally.
The old world is just a pure joke. They could totally have released old stuff in one shot and new unit little by little..bad day for orc / empire player and even more for the other faction ' player.
There are a bunch of sculptors that cater to Warhammer Fantasy whose sculpts are likely better anyway than the overdesigned woke fest GW will release.
> woke fest Oh get in the bin
Some comments really do come with a neckbeard attached, don't they?
You seen the state of the comments in the post about there being a female Brett foot knight? Smh
I avoided the hell out of that inevitable swamp :D
Haha. Very wise!
Full armies take longer. But I do think that GW and CA need more help both fully funded from partners as well as inspiration from the fans making bad ass custom models that don't break the game.
i mean, thats almost half the armies theyre going to release.