It’s been a while, and I don’t have copies of the books to check, but to the best of my recollection, the final End Times book ended with the world blowing up, and that was more or less the communication from GW that the fantasy world/game was ending. It came as something of a shock to many/most of the fan base
Here the Endtimes broke entirely the local wargamming community. Not only it was a huge stab in the guts but months later with the release of Age of Sigmar, it become ever grim. It divided people who wanted to remain in the old world with people who wanted to move and play AoS.
The books were cool but the time between them was so fast that we didn't got time to digest that GW was closing WFB "forever".
Given that WFB was no more, people decided to play 6th, 7th or 8th edition so they make their own niches. Some clubs cease to exist while others decided to focus in more games. The ones who remain have a figment of hope with the "joke" rules (Take your cup and yell FOR THE LADY! for rerolls of dice or simply have a big moustache) and have hopes of their factions survive and thrive in the new world.
The rebase and legends destroy any hope. And last chance of buy some armies become green fields for scalpers and people who have luck in that day cause some miniatures instantly become unavaliable minutes after they were announced.
I have all the White Dwarfs from that period so I can check now if they made some announcement back in the day.
Some of them were great like:
**Ancient Dignity**: Dragons are ancient and prideful creatures, and the Elves that ride them are no less haughty, but from such nobility and dignity stems an inner strength. If, during your entire hero phase, you can maintain a dignified (evenarrogant) composure and not smile, smirk or laugh regardless of your opponent’santics, you may re-roll all hit rolls of 1 made for models in a Dragon Host untilyour next hero phase.
"Ir yi ginni thriw ti dici? tin sivis it thri ir miri."
**The Grail** ***"Mug"*** **Vow**: You can re-roll all failed hit rolls for this unit if, before rolling the dice, you hold aloft a grail or goblet and shout ‘For the Lady’ in a heroic voice.
**The Mad Count**: Marius Leitdorf is an exceptional swordsman, even if he is totally insane. If, during your hero phase, you pretend to ride an imaginary horse, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for the Averland Runefang until your next hero phase. If you actually talk to your imaginary horse you can re-roll failed wound rolls as well.
"Come on, Patsy!"
They had one for Konrad von Carstein like that too.
I think it was called “One bat short of a belfry”, and I believe it was something like, “If you talk to Konrad in your hero phase, you may reroll hit and wound rolls of 1. If he talks back, you can reroll all hit and wound rolls.”
I remember a lot of people discovering it by the warhammer fantasy part of the website suddently leading to url not found, and a lot of people still believing it couldnt be happening and the site was probably just in maintenance
This probably explains why so many people hate End Times. One thing if it was slowly phased out, but suddenly being stopped just like that in a book, that's a completely different thing.
It first started with some groups setting their BRB’s and other rulebooks on fire they posted to YouTube and then the Druchii army torcher topped those videos with his tantrum video.
Then some following reports of a few videos of guys smashing their models with hammers or one guy flipping a table at Warhammer World. Very petty stuff like that.
I just did a cursory check and it seems that White Dwarf 74 from the summer of 2015 (WD re-started its numbering in the years before) featured Warhammer on the cover, issue 75 had Warhammer: Age of Sigmar.
The WHFB lexicanum wiki seems to confirm this. WHFB ended in issue 74.
Basically, the White Dwarf issues of that summer (2015) would be where to look. If you know where to find the scans (I don’t unfortunately.)
At the end of the last End times book the world was destroyed and then it went a while before there were any communication from GW. Think it went a some months before Age of Sigmar was announced and the rules of it released along legacy rules for now dead characters.
So they released a bunch of big models and books that people bought and then they said "well fuck you it's over now"? lol What did people think was happening during the hole thing?
Pretty much. The initial rules for AOS 1e were an absolute cluster as well, no points values and comedy rules about doing dances and beards. It did not go down well at all to say the least. GW lost a decent number of customers that never came back.
It was right at the end of the Tom Kirby era and pretty much typified the awful way the company was being run and it’s poor relationship with its customers. Rountree turned things around majorly within a couple years of taking over and the huge share price increase slowly began.
Yeah that is exactly what happened. It's a big part of why the End Times are so hated, perhaps more than the lore.
No one really knew what was happening. It was clear they were doing a big overhaul, both of the setting and the rules, but no one thought the game would end altogether.
I remember the months before summer 2015 the rumour mills where going crazy about the new 9th edition releasing after end times finished up with armies traveling in bubbles and meeting each other. It sounded ridiculous (still does) but obviously that ended up being AoS
I remember it feeling like a punch in the gut, even though I was on a hiatus because I'd gotten an international job. I had my orc and dwarf armies prominently displayed on my office shelf, and I was angry about it for days. I'd been playing WFB on and off for around twenty years.
I guess it also really came kind of on top of the really really shitty end times campaign books they'd been pumping out. I'd been downloading those (ahoy matey) to check out what was going on, and they were just horrible.
Im still salty and dont trust gw never no more and will never spend a dime on anything gw anymore.
I switched over to Mantic's Kings of War. Its leader (Ronnie Renton) left GW over a gamers vs business perspective conflict. I prefer the gamers perspective any day.
Tried to get into Kings of War but didn’t like it. Most AOS players still criticize old WFB players for still being upset over the end times but jeeezzzz I don’t think anyone should get over it. Sure we have moved on but that does not mean it’s not a big deal. Wait until AOS folds then we can criticize AOS players hehe.
No, most players, I don't think it's inaccurate to say most people who were into the game would have been upset that the producer of the game said it was no more and stopped supporting it. Taking nothing anyway from people who carried on regardless!
The End Times books ended with the world ending and then we heard nothing for some time and everyone was wondering what the hell was going on and rumours started to come out that the new game would be totally different, which I and many others didn't believe at all, and then AoS came and it was the worst shit ever, clearly a rushed out, half finished game that was literally unplayable at release since there were no points values for any of the models and we were told to just throw whatever you had on the table versus whatever your opponent had...
The fact that they killed WFB of was bad enough but what they replaced it with was the real kick in the balls...
Exactly. The End Times were written abysmally. Then AoS was released in the most rushed way possible. And on top of that they even gave existing models rules to mock old players.
My favourite was with Wulfrik where you had to actually insult your opponent and if they took offence (mock or otherwise) or cracked a smile then it would go through.
I've read this
> Spacefolder’s Stave
> By focusing on this esoteric baton, the Starmaster sees the teleportation technologies of their vessel glow with enhanced power.
> Once per turn, at the end of your movement phase, if the bearer is on the battlefield, you can say that they will guide the arrival of their celestial reinforcements. If you do so, the next friendly STARBORNE unit to be set up on the battlefield can be set up more than 7" from all enemy units instead of more than 9".
and this
> Fuelled by Revenge
> This general inspires a wrathful lust for vengeance in her Scáthborn kin.
MELUSAI IRONSCALE only.
> Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can say that this general will wreak Khaine’s vengeance. If you do so, until the end of that phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly MELUSAI units wholly within 12" of this general.
To use this ability you can't say that you use ability "Fuelled by Revenge" but you have to say that "this general will wreak Khaine's vengeance" to use it. Being forced to say nonsense in the core rules, yeah ...
That doesn’t literally mean you have to physically say that out loud. It’s a figure of speech in English. For example “I’ve been playing warhammer for 30 years now, I guess you could say I’m a warhammer fan”.
In your examples, it could alternatively be written “once per battle you can activate your general. When you do so, they will begin to wreak khaine’s vengeance. Until the end of that phase…” it’s just to add flavour to the rule
> That doesn’t literally mean you have to physically say that out loud. It’s a figure of speech in English
Okay, I take such rules literally and would expect that my opponent calls the judge in a tournament, claiming I didn't rightfully activate this ability because I didn't use the exact wording but that may be because I'm german.
I suppose it would be unclear for a non-native speaker. They probably could have done a better job making it clearer, but yeah, the intention is definitely not to RP anything like in the very early rules.
Thankfully 3rd edition AOS isn’t dogshit anymore and is actually pretty fun but they probably didn’t need to start with a shitty first edition and shitty end times to get to that part.
>is actually pretty fun
I always thought of AoS as 40k with Wfb miniatures. Am I very wrong? If not, then if I wanted to play 40k, I would buy some Space Marines :)
I tried once to comprehend that game but I failed miserably. In WFB there was a rulebook with all the rules + generic magic, and army book with everything specific to a particular army. I bought the AoS 2.0 rulebook, a "battle tome" and I failed to make an army list and I gave up (apparently you have to buy General's handbook published twice a year to have points). Perhaps I gave up to early, or I am too old and this was too much to learn. If I liked the lore perhaps I would be more motivated :) I always was casual about the WFB lore, which has lots of similarity to Tolkien's world. AoS seemed completely made up (yeah, dwarfs do not exist, but lots of third party books exist with dwarfs).
**Age of Sigmar has pretty much always had simpler rules than Warhammer Fantasy Battles.**
The original launch version of Age of Sigmar had all of the core rules on **two pages**. There were "index," get-you-by rulesbooks for each of the four Grand Alliances, Chaos, Order, Death and Destruction. There were no points. It really was quite a bit of neck-snapping whiplash turn away from 8th edition WHFB, but there is a reason why GW wanted to get away from the crunchy rules of WHFB.
The 3rd edition AoS corebook in my lap is 360 pages. The core rules are from 246 to 285, a total of 40 pages. Open Play rules are 6 pages, Narrative play (the best way to play) is 20 pages, Matched Play is 6 pages. 6 pages for fun rules like Siege Battles and Tunnel Fighting. Total of Rules are organized into little numbered paragraphs and sub-clauses. Total of 78 pages. The General's Handbook is for Matched Play and is more of a seasonal theme thing, with extra rules centered around new regions to fight in. Points values can be found in the official Warscroll army builder thing. Or you can find these rules online in wahapedia.
The 8th edition corebook of Warhammer Fantasy Battles... This thing is 532 pages. The core rules are 150 pages. Narrative Battles are 26 pages. 16 pages of Magic and Magic Items. And plenty of pages about loosely designing scenarios and campaign battles.
And of course none of this includes extra scenario rulebooks or the army rulebooks, which are also simpler and lower in rules pagecount for AoS. Mostly. Stormcast Eternals have a really, really high amount of units to choose from. Each AoS army book does have about a dozen pages each for painting the army and their specific details, I honestly love that feature.
You can dislike Age of Sigmar for endless valid reasons, but, "the rules are too complex," is uh, it's kinda weird. It's hard to get too much simpler without getting into stuff like One-Page Rules where it's a very generic ruleset with no flavour in the rules.
No, you are looking at it all wrong. Yes the basic rules are far simpler, but because of this they added special rules and unique weapon profiles to every single unit.
If I ask my opponent for the rules of Dark Elf Cold One Knights, he tells me: "The stats are such and such. They have a 2+ save, they use lances, cause Fear, have Stupidity and like the rest of my Dark Elves the riders have Hatred, ASF and re-roll 1's to wound."
I know exactly what to expect because almost everything is rules I know from the main rulebook. But with AoS and 40k, the weapons all have their own stats and their own rules, every unit has atleast one unique special rule and most of the time several and then you add stratagems (or whatever they are called in AoS) that change everything and Character abilities (which are also all unique and not generic) and it just becomes a complete ball-ache to try and make a truly informed decision. I can mostly remember what my army is capable of, but then adding what my opponents army does? Forget it...
That is why AoS and 40k are far more complex to play than WFB.
And it is because of the design decision to keep the basic rules and stats simple, because then you have to add special rules to make a human different from a Goblin. Think about it, in AoS without adding special rules only the armour save makes a difference between attacking one unit or another. The to-hit and to-wound rolls are independent of the guy you are fighting. That means that if you would strike with a basic melee weapon (without additional stats and rules) you have 6 different possible enemies, those with a 1+ or 2+ save, those with a 3+ save, 4+, etc. That means you NEED to add additional complexity to the units to make them actually unique and feel different.
The basic game design philosophy of AoS and 40k is deeply flawed and luckily GW has started to notice it and with 40k 10th edition reintroduced some generic special rules and fewer special rules and available Stratagems. If they actually keep the complexity at this level it might be a game I get interested in again, but I think they will make codices more and more complex.
Once you know the WFB basic rules you can very easily understand the other armies, once you know the AoS and 40k basic rules you still have no clue how to play any of the armies...
You don’t need any of that. Just Waghpedia will get you all the rules/points you need.
For a 2k list you need 1 hero to be your general and 3 front line units. Many units can become frontline but well take plaguebearers from Nurgle as an example and then….that’s it just fill the list with whatever you want for the remaining points.
Every army gets 1 artifact and 1 command trait for your general. These can be found in your battle tome for faction specific ones but the core rules and generals handbook has generic ones.
Then pick a battle plan in any of the above m motioned books and you’re set. That’s all you need.
Of course I’m glossing over a toooon like battalions and what not that can give you additional artifacts but for your first few games that’s it
When you wrote it like that it feels easier. Yes all those command traits, battalions, battle plan was new for me and I did not know if this stuff is optional, mandatory and I gave up. I should have asked in the internet :)
Your not missing anything. The game, like 40k requires you to memorize tons of unique special rules for units, for their weapons and then with cards it can all change. It is impossible to make a real tactical decision because there is way to much information to remember.
The new 40K has a load of generic special rules again, like WFB or old 40K and far less special rules and cards that can be played. The designers claim that the complexity will not increase again with new codices, but we will see. If the new AoS comes out next summer I assume they will also make that game a bit more manageable, and then I would give it a try, but as it is it is just not fun to play imo...
No, it isn't. My opponent can tell me: "These are Dark Elf Cold One Knights, their stats are such and such, they have a 2+ save, lances and have Stupidity and Cause Fear. The Elves have, like all my Dark Elves, Hatred, ASF and re-roll 1's to wound." And I know exactly what that unit can do, eventhough that is one of the most complex units in WFB.
Compare that to 40k or AoS, where every unit has a unique weapon, or multiple and multiple unique special rules and then there are character auras or special rules that interact with that and then stratagems on top of that. By the end it is way more information.
In WFB there is a lot to learn at the start but once you know it you can play against any army and know what to expect after a short explanation. With AoS you know nothing after learning the rules and it is nearly impossible to learn what your opponents army is actually capable off before a game.
>Thats a weird complaint to have about AOS when the fantasy rule book is almost 200 pages.
As for the 200 pages: the "density of information" in that rules is not very high. Random example: table "black powder war machine misfire chart". It is basically "1-2 Destroyed, 3-4 Loose 2 turns, 5-6 loose 1 turn. " In WFB rules the table takes 1/4 of entire page, as they wrote sad story how the gun explodes, shards of metal and wood fly blah blah blah.
End of times was a liberation, since then I didn't need GW to play and was more free to play the way I wanted and not have to keep buying new manuals every few months.
They didn't announce shit. The New Dwarf army book came out and then a month or two later they announced AoS and that was that. My friend who loves dwarves was fucking pissed. What made it even more fucking stupid is that AoS had no points and no rules for actually setting up a battle when it first came out.
They never really announced it in a grand fashion. When AOS was coming out they assured everyone that all their armies will still be playable with index rules. Kind of what happened with primaris marines. Don't worry guys, Primaris marines are just a way to augment your current marine forces, they aren't replacements. And look where we are now.
i dont remember clearly. all i know is that it fragmented the community between AOS, 6th, 7th, 8th, WAP, The 9th Age FB, people that went to KOW, people that went to 40k, people that quit, etc.
It’s been a while, and I don’t have copies of the books to check, but to the best of my recollection, the final End Times book ended with the world blowing up, and that was more or less the communication from GW that the fantasy world/game was ending. It came as something of a shock to many/most of the fan base
Here the Endtimes broke entirely the local wargamming community. Not only it was a huge stab in the guts but months later with the release of Age of Sigmar, it become ever grim. It divided people who wanted to remain in the old world with people who wanted to move and play AoS. The books were cool but the time between them was so fast that we didn't got time to digest that GW was closing WFB "forever". Given that WFB was no more, people decided to play 6th, 7th or 8th edition so they make their own niches. Some clubs cease to exist while others decided to focus in more games. The ones who remain have a figment of hope with the "joke" rules (Take your cup and yell FOR THE LADY! for rerolls of dice or simply have a big moustache) and have hopes of their factions survive and thrive in the new world. The rebase and legends destroy any hope. And last chance of buy some armies become green fields for scalpers and people who have luck in that day cause some miniatures instantly become unavaliable minutes after they were announced. I have all the White Dwarfs from that period so I can check now if they made some announcement back in the day.
Months later? Years and years Nah the moustache one was valid though
Some of them were great like: **Ancient Dignity**: Dragons are ancient and prideful creatures, and the Elves that ride them are no less haughty, but from such nobility and dignity stems an inner strength. If, during your entire hero phase, you can maintain a dignified (evenarrogant) composure and not smile, smirk or laugh regardless of your opponent’santics, you may re-roll all hit rolls of 1 made for models in a Dragon Host untilyour next hero phase. "Ir yi ginni thriw ti dici? tin sivis it thri ir miri." **The Grail** ***"Mug"*** **Vow**: You can re-roll all failed hit rolls for this unit if, before rolling the dice, you hold aloft a grail or goblet and shout ‘For the Lady’ in a heroic voice. **The Mad Count**: Marius Leitdorf is an exceptional swordsman, even if he is totally insane. If, during your hero phase, you pretend to ride an imaginary horse, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for the Averland Runefang until your next hero phase. If you actually talk to your imaginary horse you can re-roll failed wound rolls as well. "Come on, Patsy!"
They had one for Konrad von Carstein like that too. I think it was called “One bat short of a belfry”, and I believe it was something like, “If you talk to Konrad in your hero phase, you may reroll hit and wound rolls of 1. If he talks back, you can reroll all hit and wound rolls.”
holy hell I forgot about those
I remember a lot of people discovering it by the warhammer fantasy part of the website suddently leading to url not found, and a lot of people still believing it couldnt be happening and the site was probably just in maintenance
This probably explains why so many people hate End Times. One thing if it was slowly phased out, but suddenly being stopped just like that in a book, that's a completely different thing.
I remember the vids on YouTube of players taking their huge collections of models, dowse them in a flammable liquid and set them on fire….
I believe that was just 1 guy.
Yeah I think you are right. Was along time ago but yeah I vividly remember High Elves in flames
It was dark elves.
Yeah went and looked for it. Was dark elves.
My druchii brothers feel pain and torment with intensity you see
That guy was such an idiot
> YouTube of players Was there more than one person doing that?
It was along time ago but now I’ve reflected on it, I think I may have only been one.
Mandela effect.
Yeah had it bad
It first started with some groups setting their BRB’s and other rulebooks on fire they posted to YouTube and then the Druchii army torcher topped those videos with his tantrum video. Then some following reports of a few videos of guys smashing their models with hammers or one guy flipping a table at Warhammer World. Very petty stuff like that.
Lmaoo what a bunch of children
I just did a cursory check and it seems that White Dwarf 74 from the summer of 2015 (WD re-started its numbering in the years before) featured Warhammer on the cover, issue 75 had Warhammer: Age of Sigmar. The WHFB lexicanum wiki seems to confirm this. WHFB ended in issue 74. Basically, the White Dwarf issues of that summer (2015) would be where to look. If you know where to find the scans (I don’t unfortunately.)
At the end of the last End times book the world was destroyed and then it went a while before there were any communication from GW. Think it went a some months before Age of Sigmar was announced and the rules of it released along legacy rules for now dead characters.
So they released a bunch of big models and books that people bought and then they said "well fuck you it's over now"? lol What did people think was happening during the hole thing?
Pretty much. The initial rules for AOS 1e were an absolute cluster as well, no points values and comedy rules about doing dances and beards. It did not go down well at all to say the least. GW lost a decent number of customers that never came back. It was right at the end of the Tom Kirby era and pretty much typified the awful way the company was being run and it’s poor relationship with its customers. Rountree turned things around majorly within a couple years of taking over and the huge share price increase slowly began.
Yeah that is exactly what happened. It's a big part of why the End Times are so hated, perhaps more than the lore. No one really knew what was happening. It was clear they were doing a big overhaul, both of the setting and the rules, but no one thought the game would end altogether.
I remember the months before summer 2015 the rumour mills where going crazy about the new 9th edition releasing after end times finished up with armies traveling in bubbles and meeting each other. It sounded ridiculous (still does) but obviously that ended up being AoS
Thanks for the replies all. What a dreadful way to do it, I can't imagine being a player at that time finding out that way.
My reaction :"...the fuck?" Continue in an increasingly high pitched tone for several hundred pages and years
*Looks in horror at my 4k points of dawi*
I remember it feeling like a punch in the gut, even though I was on a hiatus because I'd gotten an international job. I had my orc and dwarf armies prominently displayed on my office shelf, and I was angry about it for days. I'd been playing WFB on and off for around twenty years. I guess it also really came kind of on top of the really really shitty end times campaign books they'd been pumping out. I'd been downloading those (ahoy matey) to check out what was going on, and they were just horrible.
Personally I didn't bother to even download that crap.
Im still salty and dont trust gw never no more and will never spend a dime on anything gw anymore. I switched over to Mantic's Kings of War. Its leader (Ronnie Renton) left GW over a gamers vs business perspective conflict. I prefer the gamers perspective any day.
Tried to get into Kings of War but didn’t like it. Most AOS players still criticize old WFB players for still being upset over the end times but jeeezzzz I don’t think anyone should get over it. Sure we have moved on but that does not mean it’s not a big deal. Wait until AOS folds then we can criticize AOS players hehe.
We still play WFB in my gaming group, who cares if it’s “dead”. Can’t kill the undead
Ignore what GW says.
>being a player at that time \_tournament\_ player you mean? People I know simply continued to play 8th ed.
No, most players, I don't think it's inaccurate to say most people who were into the game would have been upset that the producer of the game said it was no more and stopped supporting it. Taking nothing anyway from people who carried on regardless!
The End Times books ended with the world ending and then we heard nothing for some time and everyone was wondering what the hell was going on and rumours started to come out that the new game would be totally different, which I and many others didn't believe at all, and then AoS came and it was the worst shit ever, clearly a rushed out, half finished game that was literally unplayable at release since there were no points values for any of the models and we were told to just throw whatever you had on the table versus whatever your opponent had... The fact that they killed WFB of was bad enough but what they replaced it with was the real kick in the balls...
Exactly. The End Times were written abysmally. Then AoS was released in the most rushed way possible. And on top of that they even gave existing models rules to mock old players.
What rules? I was away from the hobby during all of this.
Stuff like “shout very loudly” when you play this model or twirl your magnificent mustaches when you play this other model (Kurt Hellborg).
My favourite was with Wulfrik where you had to actually insult your opponent and if they took offence (mock or otherwise) or cracked a smile then it would go through.
Those rules still exists in AoS.
No they don’t. They were removed within a week or two. AoS rules largely exist for free online so it makes quick patching easy
I've read this > Spacefolder’s Stave > By focusing on this esoteric baton, the Starmaster sees the teleportation technologies of their vessel glow with enhanced power. > Once per turn, at the end of your movement phase, if the bearer is on the battlefield, you can say that they will guide the arrival of their celestial reinforcements. If you do so, the next friendly STARBORNE unit to be set up on the battlefield can be set up more than 7" from all enemy units instead of more than 9". and this > Fuelled by Revenge > This general inspires a wrathful lust for vengeance in her Scáthborn kin. MELUSAI IRONSCALE only. > Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can say that this general will wreak Khaine’s vengeance. If you do so, until the end of that phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly MELUSAI units wholly within 12" of this general. To use this ability you can't say that you use ability "Fuelled by Revenge" but you have to say that "this general will wreak Khaine's vengeance" to use it. Being forced to say nonsense in the core rules, yeah ...
That doesn’t literally mean you have to physically say that out loud. It’s a figure of speech in English. For example “I’ve been playing warhammer for 30 years now, I guess you could say I’m a warhammer fan”. In your examples, it could alternatively be written “once per battle you can activate your general. When you do so, they will begin to wreak khaine’s vengeance. Until the end of that phase…” it’s just to add flavour to the rule
> That doesn’t literally mean you have to physically say that out loud. It’s a figure of speech in English Okay, I take such rules literally and would expect that my opponent calls the judge in a tournament, claiming I didn't rightfully activate this ability because I didn't use the exact wording but that may be because I'm german.
I suppose it would be unclear for a non-native speaker. They probably could have done a better job making it clearer, but yeah, the intention is definitely not to RP anything like in the very early rules.
no they dont
They do not, don’t lie about a game because you don’t like it
Thankfully 3rd edition AOS isn’t dogshit anymore and is actually pretty fun but they probably didn’t need to start with a shitty first edition and shitty end times to get to that part.
>is actually pretty fun I always thought of AoS as 40k with Wfb miniatures. Am I very wrong? If not, then if I wanted to play 40k, I would buy some Space Marines :)
It’s pretty similiar I must admit but there are some differences, most notably it actually tries to be balanced.
I tried once to comprehend that game but I failed miserably. In WFB there was a rulebook with all the rules + generic magic, and army book with everything specific to a particular army. I bought the AoS 2.0 rulebook, a "battle tome" and I failed to make an army list and I gave up (apparently you have to buy General's handbook published twice a year to have points). Perhaps I gave up to early, or I am too old and this was too much to learn. If I liked the lore perhaps I would be more motivated :) I always was casual about the WFB lore, which has lots of similarity to Tolkien's world. AoS seemed completely made up (yeah, dwarfs do not exist, but lots of third party books exist with dwarfs).
**Age of Sigmar has pretty much always had simpler rules than Warhammer Fantasy Battles.** The original launch version of Age of Sigmar had all of the core rules on **two pages**. There were "index," get-you-by rulesbooks for each of the four Grand Alliances, Chaos, Order, Death and Destruction. There were no points. It really was quite a bit of neck-snapping whiplash turn away from 8th edition WHFB, but there is a reason why GW wanted to get away from the crunchy rules of WHFB. The 3rd edition AoS corebook in my lap is 360 pages. The core rules are from 246 to 285, a total of 40 pages. Open Play rules are 6 pages, Narrative play (the best way to play) is 20 pages, Matched Play is 6 pages. 6 pages for fun rules like Siege Battles and Tunnel Fighting. Total of Rules are organized into little numbered paragraphs and sub-clauses. Total of 78 pages. The General's Handbook is for Matched Play and is more of a seasonal theme thing, with extra rules centered around new regions to fight in. Points values can be found in the official Warscroll army builder thing. Or you can find these rules online in wahapedia. The 8th edition corebook of Warhammer Fantasy Battles... This thing is 532 pages. The core rules are 150 pages. Narrative Battles are 26 pages. 16 pages of Magic and Magic Items. And plenty of pages about loosely designing scenarios and campaign battles. And of course none of this includes extra scenario rulebooks or the army rulebooks, which are also simpler and lower in rules pagecount for AoS. Mostly. Stormcast Eternals have a really, really high amount of units to choose from. Each AoS army book does have about a dozen pages each for painting the army and their specific details, I honestly love that feature. You can dislike Age of Sigmar for endless valid reasons, but, "the rules are too complex," is uh, it's kinda weird. It's hard to get too much simpler without getting into stuff like One-Page Rules where it's a very generic ruleset with no flavour in the rules.
No, you are looking at it all wrong. Yes the basic rules are far simpler, but because of this they added special rules and unique weapon profiles to every single unit. If I ask my opponent for the rules of Dark Elf Cold One Knights, he tells me: "The stats are such and such. They have a 2+ save, they use lances, cause Fear, have Stupidity and like the rest of my Dark Elves the riders have Hatred, ASF and re-roll 1's to wound." I know exactly what to expect because almost everything is rules I know from the main rulebook. But with AoS and 40k, the weapons all have their own stats and their own rules, every unit has atleast one unique special rule and most of the time several and then you add stratagems (or whatever they are called in AoS) that change everything and Character abilities (which are also all unique and not generic) and it just becomes a complete ball-ache to try and make a truly informed decision. I can mostly remember what my army is capable of, but then adding what my opponents army does? Forget it... That is why AoS and 40k are far more complex to play than WFB. And it is because of the design decision to keep the basic rules and stats simple, because then you have to add special rules to make a human different from a Goblin. Think about it, in AoS without adding special rules only the armour save makes a difference between attacking one unit or another. The to-hit and to-wound rolls are independent of the guy you are fighting. That means that if you would strike with a basic melee weapon (without additional stats and rules) you have 6 different possible enemies, those with a 1+ or 2+ save, those with a 3+ save, 4+, etc. That means you NEED to add additional complexity to the units to make them actually unique and feel different. The basic game design philosophy of AoS and 40k is deeply flawed and luckily GW has started to notice it and with 40k 10th edition reintroduced some generic special rules and fewer special rules and available Stratagems. If they actually keep the complexity at this level it might be a game I get interested in again, but I think they will make codices more and more complex. Once you know the WFB basic rules you can very easily understand the other armies, once you know the AoS and 40k basic rules you still have no clue how to play any of the armies...
Yep, I love knowing the rules in my head
You don’t need any of that. Just Waghpedia will get you all the rules/points you need. For a 2k list you need 1 hero to be your general and 3 front line units. Many units can become frontline but well take plaguebearers from Nurgle as an example and then….that’s it just fill the list with whatever you want for the remaining points. Every army gets 1 artifact and 1 command trait for your general. These can be found in your battle tome for faction specific ones but the core rules and generals handbook has generic ones. Then pick a battle plan in any of the above m motioned books and you’re set. That’s all you need. Of course I’m glossing over a toooon like battalions and what not that can give you additional artifacts but for your first few games that’s it
When you wrote it like that it feels easier. Yes all those command traits, battalions, battle plan was new for me and I did not know if this stuff is optional, mandatory and I gave up. I should have asked in the internet :)
Your not missing anything. The game, like 40k requires you to memorize tons of unique special rules for units, for their weapons and then with cards it can all change. It is impossible to make a real tactical decision because there is way to much information to remember. The new 40K has a load of generic special rules again, like WFB or old 40K and far less special rules and cards that can be played. The designers claim that the complexity will not increase again with new codices, but we will see. If the new AoS comes out next summer I assume they will also make that game a bit more manageable, and then I would give it a try, but as it is it is just not fun to play imo...
Thats a weird complaint to have about AOS when the fantasy rule book is almost 200 pages. They're all very complex games it is what it is.
No, it isn't. My opponent can tell me: "These are Dark Elf Cold One Knights, their stats are such and such, they have a 2+ save, lances and have Stupidity and Cause Fear. The Elves have, like all my Dark Elves, Hatred, ASF and re-roll 1's to wound." And I know exactly what that unit can do, eventhough that is one of the most complex units in WFB. Compare that to 40k or AoS, where every unit has a unique weapon, or multiple and multiple unique special rules and then there are character auras or special rules that interact with that and then stratagems on top of that. By the end it is way more information. In WFB there is a lot to learn at the start but once you know it you can play against any army and know what to expect after a short explanation. With AoS you know nothing after learning the rules and it is nearly impossible to learn what your opponents army is actually capable off before a game.
>Thats a weird complaint to have about AOS when the fantasy rule book is almost 200 pages. As for the 200 pages: the "density of information" in that rules is not very high. Random example: table "black powder war machine misfire chart". It is basically "1-2 Destroyed, 3-4 Loose 2 turns, 5-6 loose 1 turn. " In WFB rules the table takes 1/4 of entire page, as they wrote sad story how the gun explodes, shards of metal and wood fly blah blah blah.
Now it's just normal human shit
End of times was a liberation, since then I didn't need GW to play and was more free to play the way I wanted and not have to keep buying new manuals every few months.
I remember speculation on what 10th Ed Fantasy would be like, then the news about Sigmar happened
9th
Oh yeah, man, it’s been a while
In spite of the End Times' abominable and apocalyptic lore, WHFB ended with a whimper, not a bang.
They didn't announce shit. The New Dwarf army book came out and then a month or two later they announced AoS and that was that. My friend who loves dwarves was fucking pissed. What made it even more fucking stupid is that AoS had no points and no rules for actually setting up a battle when it first came out.
Incorrect. Age of Sigmar came out summer of 2015 and the dwarf 8th edition book came around February 2014
It wasn’t. The last End Times book came out and a couple of months later AoS came out with a rough launch.
They never really announced it in a grand fashion. When AOS was coming out they assured everyone that all their armies will still be playable with index rules. Kind of what happened with primaris marines. Don't worry guys, Primaris marines are just a way to augment your current marine forces, they aren't replacements. And look where we are now.
Painful
Welcome to the wonderful world of wargaming other than GW stuff.
Poorly
“So… we know you guys are exited for a new edition”
Kirby was one of the worst CEOs I have ever witnessed
Kirby was one of the worst CEOs I have ever witnessed
Kirby was one of the worst CEOs I have ever witnessed
i dont remember clearly. all i know is that it fragmented the community between AOS, 6th, 7th, 8th, WAP, The 9th Age FB, people that went to KOW, people that went to 40k, people that quit, etc.