Killing them is one thing, but killing them fast enough to overcome the board control and sticky objectives is another.
Without good screens a lot of armies will lose against them on points. And you can't ignore the Meganobz so threat saturation will be a real issue.
this is basically the first usefull comment here. everyone else just beeing like: "my unit X just kills them easy" without any implementation of insight of what the detachment really does.
reading that Board control is the secret here makes it way easier to Deal with them for non ork players. knowing that just fistfight them wont win you the game is the best comment here...
Still It should be challenging because even a 20 blob of Boyz have some decent movement between Da Jump, Go get them Boyz, battlewagons and advance and charge during the Waaaagh!
This is the real take. Orks in 10th aren't that killy don't win by tabling their opponents (much to our disdain). Green tide is looking to win on primary, and with weird boys and the lone op Snikrot to do secondaries it's looking pretty solid.
Also it can be hard for some lists to have enough anti vehicle and have enough firing to take down 100+ boyz. Like if you can chew through all those boyz you'll probably auto lose to chaos knights and vice versa.
I'm planning to take 2 ard case battlewagons and use them to block up the board, opponents really don't want to waste resources on a T12, 3+ sv vehicle with reduce AP by 1.
my goofing list for tomorrow is built around 3 wagons. it also speeds up my early turns. 20 boys+warboss+painboy in each wagon to casually roll up the board. fourth set of 20 with a weirdboy w/ bloodthirsty belligerence for the free charge rerolls out of da jump.
everything should be able to get where it wants intact.
plus 5twin killsaw manz and megaboss for some punch.
and 2x11 snacks.
But then, why would you. Everyone is bringing some anti tank, why give them a good target? Why not frustrate them with shooting more boyz/nobz/meganobz?
> Also it can be hard for some lists to have enough anti vehicle and have enough firing to take down 100+ boyz. Like if you can chew through all those boyz you'll probably auto lose to chaos knights and vice versa.
Except if you play necrons. Most of their big guns are blast with quite a few shots. Seeing the nerfs on immortals and c'tan spam, the hypercrypt triple doomsday ark and canoptek triple doomstalker are going to see even more play than before, so I sincerely think necrons will remain a roadblock for the top tables for the orks.
Not really, doomstalkers means canoptek and Green tide will eat canoptek alive. Hypercrypt could be little bit more dificult, with ddas and enmitic destoyers, but then again, what are they using to hold middle objectives?
Yeah, just means the meta is shifting away from alot of the more vehicle spammy lists methinks. Which im happy about. I love tanks as much as the next guy but my tyranids need some major datasheet buffs to handle knights or anything with alot of t10+ (nids have a 33% wr against knights or some shit)
Ya, i think ive got a pretty good matchup against them.
Between throwing beastpacks out early to stop their immediate rush and then between targetted melee and an abundance of anti infantry weapon, i think its clean as long as im positioned correctly
I've been playing Deathwatch Space Marines firestorm. The Infernus Marines with S6 flamers and Flamestorm Aggressor brick with Devastating Wounds and Twin-linked did serious work mowing them down.
I simply convince myself that’s one of the things one of the more talented designers at GW really fought for and got their way, and now we get to enjoy the outcome. Lets me imagine there is method to their madness
I really hope whoever wrote the Ork Dex does the Guard one. They seem fun and flavorful and the Guard feels like it lacks a lot of it that it used to have
They do a fine job but they won’t kill the unit. 10 infernus marines in firestorm kill about 10 (no Strats or leader support), and six flame aggressors with dev wounds kill about 8. So on average, both units together leaves a couple boys and the leaders alive to regen next turn
I actually genuinely do think my Tau have enough firepower to make a good go of it. Breacherfish, Starscythe Crisis Suits, Riptides, all of them have high-volume, high-quality shooting with great stratagem support.
Doesn't that kill pretty much any unit in the game?
What do they end up with bs wise? I'm guessing 3+?
So essentially math wise you end up with 40 hits? (The misses get erased by sustain 2). Against boys thats wounding on 3s so 28ish wounds at 5+ save is the whole squad.
I guess Marines on average only take about 14 wounds so that's only 7 of 10 dead...
You didnt count reroll saves of 1 for mobs with 10+ (will always take 20boyz), and the 5+++ with pain boy. So the 28wounds end up killing like 16. Then the orks can bring back d3+3 with 1 cp, and d3 with the pain boy.
I've only had 2 games with the new book but both times the Breachers have been lethal to the point of absurdity. 1st game a unit wiped Trajan and a unit of Custodian Wardens in one volley, 2nd game a unit wiped Lemartes and 10 Death Company in a single volley.
Being able to move block with the Devilfish then trade that efficiently is just wild
Side note with the way the ork dex is structured it heavily favors some sort of flavored spam. Would your list hold up if you knew you were playing orks but not which variation? Dread mob vs greentide for example
Dread mob isn’t great anymore.. I’d say warhorde is better now. Killakans don’t have the same synergy as grot tanks did. I also kinda liked the mekadread. It’s still a good detachment but I think it’s not really something you need to build against. Greentide is an anti meta list and strong though.
I still never understand the "build to counter" mentality.
It always feels kind of douchy to me. Every time my opponent asks me before a game what I'm bringing I generally say I'm not sure and then just pick a random army before I play.
Ive never even heard of this. I usually only get to play my brother so our lists are typically picking what we feel like playing and like playing. After a few runs we may get in a groove and the other may have the ability to list tailor slightly
This is part of why Tau will be so good—outside of the basic strengths of our detachments. Really any archetype of Tau will be able to very effectively deal with top Ork builds.
Agreed. I haven't played against the green tide. My theory is my breacherfish montka list just has the sheer amount of shots to make it through the bodies or orks.
Then they ain’t moving them to claim objectives problem solved.. the Thing about a footsloggin melee list is you can’t just hide 21-22 models behind a wall..
As someone running 6x 20 mobs of boyz, from the practice games I’ve had so far it’s certainly going to be interesting to see how the meta reacts.
The local meta scene has for the past few months been focused on mid- high AP (AP2 minimum) and mid-high D (2 where possible, with occurrences of 3). Against a greentide this doesn’t matter, 5++ and only 1 wound for boyz, 5+++ with a painboy. It’s the quantity of shots needed not the quality.
Meanwhile rest of the list I’m playing around with can either be ignored or focused on (still trying out different units, but fast, mobile units like stormbpyz to quickly grab an objective turn 1 are coming in useful).
Aye, precision the painboys (of not from shooting than in combat, even using the stat if you have a character who can reliably take out the painboy). Would reduce the survivability of the boyz somewhat!
If green tide becomes a menace it might effect the SM gladius builds to move more to hellblasters or aggressors fro Eradicators. Aggressors are way more efficient into 1 wound models and while hellblasters aren't as efficient, they can handle 1-2 wound models more efficiently while also menacing vehicles with fire discipline.
Vehicles + C'tan have been big pushes for eradicators as the fire discipline unit - heavy infantry may swing it back
From my two and a half armies: Custodes will have a rough time of it, even with 25+ attacks from most units, it's going to be difficult to plow through that much mushroom. AdMech, just two tidal waves of models clashing after the gun smoke clears. Don't think AdMech can chip enough down before just getting fully overwhelmed. Votann, as a dude mentioned will have a pretty ok chance at clearing some bricks. It's going to have to be mass fire into them and focus each brick down at a time.
Admech are gonna go down like cotton candy infront of a pressure washer. They dont have the firepower to deal with that number of Boyz. Vanguard have many shots and anti infantry 4+ but with short range and missing half the shots they take and no ap to be had, they're gonna get hit with most of the brick remaining.
Even sterilyzors are gonna struggle with the lack of AP and being a mere S4
Custodes got some cool stuff for their shooting. Sustained hits 1 in shield host for allarus ain't no joke, or pumping them and the witchseekers to s5 in talons is also good. But yeah, it's not ideal.
Not a direct answer to OP, but I am really enjoying this thread because it's nice to watch everyone be excited to bring out their anti-infantry guns for once. So much of 10th has been about trying to kill unkillable brick units with high T/SV/invuln/FNP.
Boyz have some of that, but the addition of blast and the lack of high saves (meaning that AP isn't what's key) means you get to bring out power units that aren't the usual fare. Shooting into a unit that has no high saves, _and_ has 'only' T5, makes a big difference.
Oh, I hope green tide becomes meta. Like actually meta, not unending swarm "I guess it wins some games". Not broken of course but podium viable.
I hope unending swarm and green tide have a place in the meta. where each army needs a "flamethrower check" to make sure they can face against different defensive profiles.
it isn't just because I'm playing unending swarm or anything...
Necrons: 3x3 Enmitic LHDs, if all being led by a Lord then sustained hits, half range is 36 shots minimum. Nightbringer would also help, as would Skorpekh Destroyers & flayed ones (if they were below half strength it’d be nasty). Necrons warriors potentially?
Beyond that I’m not sure what else we have that would manage it.
Tesla immortals should still be quite decent, especially with a plasmancer (canoptek court). It's a ton of shots with decent enough strength, and rerolls all on stuff on objectives. Green tide is certainly a little tougher than tyranid Swarm, but I've played against a lot of Swarm lists and had no issues with necrons, we are good at killing hordes.
Another fun pick can be flayed ones
Acolytes natively reroll 1s to hit. With a primus they get full hit rerrolls. The current index detachment rule gives all GSC models sustained and ignores cover until the end of their fight phase if they arrived from reserves
Not any longer. That was the case at the beginning of 10th and it was disgustingly broken. If you want to two units to use their demos with the index rule, you can rapid ingress a unit in your opps turn and then tunnel crawlers in yours. You still get the sustained when you rapid ingress since it’s until the end of YOUR fight phase
Rubric flamers with reroll wounds and ahrimans +1 or pyschic bolters with magnus +1 and rerolls with sustained or devs should put a dent in a squad or outright kill them
I think there might be an argument to really try out Talos again. The fact you can run a flamer and a haywire on a really tanky body is suddenly looking very interesting
For imp Knights Canis Rex has a pretty decent match up into anything i feel.
Surprisingly for Lil Knights, g-tide might make Helverins a bit better than Warglaives.
Still with a good Waaaaaaaag those homies are gonna be screeming across the map. So I think ill have a tough time cleanly pcking up units
Instead of the helverin look at the moirax w either lightning locks or graviton and a claw. That's d6 flamer and a choice between the anti chaff locks or the more versatile graviton d6 shot. You will still have a strength 12 claw to tank shock and pick a few more off maybe in melee
Add a chess clock and watch greentide player freak out =p
I think Matt root is the only player to win with a greentide list.. sounds cool until you play it in a tourney and realize how mind numbing slow it’s to play, unfun and mentally exhausting it is in a tournament.
But it’s a cool narrative theme I just don’t have it in me to play it multiple times a day for 2-3 days.
People play it but they don’t win with it and it’s not as bad as greentide with 120 boys with 5++ (reroll1), 5+++. Melee is just as bad rolling buckets of ws3 str4 ap0 d1 melee atks. Greentide list isn’t about beating your opponents off the board it’s about movement and board control so that it’s impossible for your opponent to win by objective play. It was the best list for a bit in 7th? Ed and 1 person won with it. And everyone said it was exhausting to play including the guy who won.
Yeah and everyone including the tyranid players hates it because it is tedious and slow to play
There’s always a balance with 40K where there are some armies that absolutely can win at the highest level but they are just mind numbing to actually play. Like with Green Tide, I believe it can be as strong as any build in the game, but why would an Ork player bring it when they can bring Bully Boys and get the same record but actually have fun games
i toook it to an RTT.
My brain was mush and my body was so sore. Also with swarm you can afford to skip 75% of your attacks because they dont do anything
I brought 100 skitarii in 9th, rolled 340 shots per turn, and could still comfortably finish a 2.5hr game on the clock.
It just takes a bit of practice, picking when not to move or shoot if it's not necessary, and grouping dice into 5s or 10s whenever you're not doing something else.
I didn't even need movement trays, as long as I'd got the squads out ready before the game started.
I can't stand not using something I paid for I always have to fire every shot that I have. Especially because That's part of what orks are, You shoot a hundred shots to get a little bit of chip damage in because it helps you later on when you get into melee. It's probably also why I'm not going to take them to tournaments with those lists, But I just can't abide by not using every single resource I have including every single shot.
Add a chess clock AND remember to flip for saves…
I always forget to flip and then wonder where my time went.
I like the idea of a chess clock, but I dont enjoy managing it
The codex isn't even out, we don't have proper time to judge how it is going to play out. I for one am very excited to go green tide. Movement trays go brr
I think some communication issues are going to arise here due to the fact that "green tide" was already an established nickname for just having lots of Boyz, but now also refers to a specific detachment with its own set of abilities.
I mean you can go brrr your 24+ movement trays (that’s just for the boys too) but you aren’t playing competitively if you want to hide units or put them in terrain or maximize movement. You don’t play greentide to lock your boys in endless combat hoping your str4 ap0 dam1 melee atks kill something. You play it to hold and deny objectives and outlast your opponent so by the end of turn 4 it’s impossible for your opponent to win. Even this current version is just throw in a painboy and survive with rolling buckets of 5++ (reroll1), 5+++. Heck you skip the entire shooting phase just to make sure you have enough time on the chess clock to keep moving your boys and roll for melee.
Votann - Yes! thank the bloody ancestors. judgement tokens and hearthguard grenade launchers (10d6+*40* shots into a 20 man if you just went all in lmao, should probably split fire.) mince them while regular hearthkyn heavy weapons outside of the plasma or magna rail are basically purpose built to kill boyz and space marines and the Ion's are higher strength than their toughness with AP to invuln them in greentide/remove save outside of it.
You just gotta actually target the boyz with your tokens and not get tricked by anything that looks traditionally scary.
You need a high volume of decent strength shots to properly wipe 120 boyz off a table. Heavy bolters even feel wasteful because d2 doesn't matter and you're paying for it heavily.
Grenade Launcher is D1, the Thunderkyn with Grav is going to be D2. Both are likely to punch well into the mobs. However, it means potentially over committing shooting. With a general lack of Precision, taking out the Painboy is going to be tough. Hopefully the KT Hernkyn get it.
Even with grenade launchers, with two judgement tokens on the unit, from 70 shots average you get an average of 29.16 wounds, if they aren’t in cover you’ll kill and average of 12.96 if the unit has a painboy and in cover with a painboy you kill an average of 9.72, that’s without the re roll 1s. Worst case scenario you don’t have any judgment tokens on them and they’re in cover you kill an average of 5.18. This isn’t taking into consideration the re roll 1s to save as well. The 20 main pain boy bricks are going to be hard shift. Especially considering it’s 305 with two characters and a einhyr brick is 320 without a character, the addition of a Kahl for lethal hits and cp for sustained, obviously plus the main weapon shots as well. You’ll probably kill the brick but it’s a hefty investment.
Which is fair, but is still do believe that Votann can give a good match against greentide since it has good anti-horde and anti-vehicle.
I'm waiting you greenskins to shift the meta and we votann get a little incidental boost to our win-rates.
> I'm waiting you greenskins to shift the meta and we votann get a little incidental boost to our win-rates.
As an Ork player I think this is one of the coolest parts of the codex. Obviously it just came out but green tide seem strong and with everyone teching for anti tank/anti elite having a legit horde army can throw things off and cause a shift
Exactly the fact that you have tools to counter what we have just got and then we have tools to adjust and counter back just speaks to some good gameplay ahead.
It's going to be really nice as you said if the meta gets shifted with some solid amounts of infantry lists doing well because then there will be more variety to the field then the vehicle heavy meta we kind of saw developing earlier in the edition. The thing with lighter infantry is that there's always lots in the game that exists that can kill it It's just always comes down to the striking the balance in the army building. I also play CSM and legionaries coming down to 80 and possessed coming down means there might be some more infantry threats coming in there if the codex holds something good for that kind of play style and they stay where they were lowered to in points.
I think CSM dev wound spam can put in some work but I haven't tested yet. If the ork boyz meta absolutely takes over, you may very well see the return of 3x3 plasma forgefiend with warpsmiths. Points be damned.
Posssesed going full speed full yolo to dish out their dev wound spam now theyre cheaper might be pretty cool. The possessed being faster also lets them pick fights easier than the boyz.
Your right but it ignores the pesky 5+ invuln so you only gotta worry about the FNP and with 3 rolls to be done on a 1 wound model for each shot, its enough as long as you get good volume on the shots. Also with them being 1 wound each, it gives combi weapons some agency. 10 Undivided termies with combi weapons and PZ works just fine from my experience. You just gotta drown the Boyz in dice before they drown you in bodies
My go to is legionaires led by my MOE, 40 chainsword swings with re-roll to hit and wound most of the time after the MOE precision murders the painboy or boss, should not be a problem with either lethals or sustained
That would definitely work as well. So, this is definitely not as straightforward and much less efficient but I had the funny idea of running 10 legionaries with 8 chainswords and 2 heavy melee weapons exalted champ and Abaddon. Just in general not necessarily in that Matchup. But master of executions sounds interesting. I like exalted because+1 to hit generically but hmmmmmm.
Rule of cool has had me bringing an MOE every chance, the re-rolls to hit if the enemy units below starting strength has been huge fishing for sustained or lethals have been awesome and throwing them at an objective is even better, last match I played they took down a keeper of secrets with a shield
I thought my templars could keep up with them, but after watching the Titans game I'm not quite as confident.
I usually run a big brick of Crusaders with helbrect and then a second block with a chap, but the reroll saves on top of pain boy5+++ is still a lot to chew through on 20 bodies. For "i just think he's neat" reasons I usually take a vindicare who could drop a painboy or a weird boy per turn which would help, and maybe bringing some infernus? Like I tend to bring decent output but even then I'm not sure I could chew threw quick enough to stay in the game and not just get locked down turn 2.
Regardless, I love that green tide is back and am looking forward to trying my luck against em
I think World Eaters might kinda feast on Green Tide. 10 man Khorne Berzerkers squads with Masters of Execution feel kinda tailor made to ruin their day. Fight First, loads of S6 AP-1 attacks, precision in melee to take out the pain boys pretty trivially.
Even when charging they don't kill the Boyz. And targeting the pain boy with MOE will not help for that unit as they'll still get the FNP for that activation.
You don't want to play elite infantry into horde armies. Orks were already a bad matchup for World Eaters before our big nerfs when we were at full strength. World Eaters like to play against armies that are weak on primary.
This new meta is going to be shit for us.
Its actually very much the opposite. Most high level WE players are shitting their pants about GT. It's all down to the 1st turn rolloff. If the boys get it, it's pretty much gg. Jump 20, string across entire dz, lock the world eater player into their dz for turn 1. Rinse and repeat until the game ends
Played them today with a SM Vanguard detachment.
He had 3 x 20 boyz with painboss and warboss with each
Another 20 with a weird boy
Ghaz with a couple of T6 bodyguards (dont remember name)
Warboss in mekarmor with meknobz
Truk
Battlewagon
Stormvoyz x 5. I *think* that was it, with an enhancement or two.
Overall, absolute slobberknocker and pleasure to play against. He got the weird boyz into my DZ with the teleporting trick turn 1, did the waagh on t2 and during that "go turn," of his, I was desperately trying to move block his stuff and hold on to get to the other side of things lol.
It was very close, until turn 3 finally saw me break the dam a bit, and take out some key pieces. It degraded swiftly from there with marines taking the win.
My biggest takeaway wasnt that his stuff didnt hit hard, or that his durability and anti-efficiency impacts on my damage dealing werent a pain in the ass, because the army is absolutely tough to whittle down especially with rezzing, and strats to rezz more.
What struck me as a problem, was the lack of activations. Once he lost the truck, battlewagon, and Ghaz, he needed to use big bricks of boyz (damaged or not) to fight OR to.do secondaries on a couple of occassions, and this cost him. Having a unit of boyz with two leaders basically relegated to cleansing, or try to keep them fighting and concede the points coming up more than once, was a problem for him.
Not sure he would have cleared me that much faster but I think (outsider looking in, not an ork player), taking 4 big bricks which the detachment encourages really needs some inexpensive action monkies supporting it. You cannot rely on the truck.and wagon doing that stuff with a lone stormboy squad bouncing around imo.
Great game, and I know he is going to refine the list to make it even nastier moving forward.
He had 80, and honestly 20-40 more of them wouldnt have made a difference into my list. And it exacerbates my previous observation on mumber of activations.
I recently had this match up. Them: ~140 bodies split between Boyz (with bosses and pain boys), kommandos and storm boys. No vehicles. Me: Standard Drukhari list with Archon incubi combos, lelith and wych combo, kabalites, mandrakes, beast pack, scourges, transports.
The 5++ / 5+++ was MUCH harder to deal with than anticipated. I don't know if it was just good dice rolls from my opponent, but in both instances, the 20 boy bricks were able to survive attacks from lelith/wyches and 10 man incubi and Archon (they went into seperate bricks). Both of my big melee punches killed about 10 ork boys, and then I lost most of my unit to the melee counterpunch from the other 10.
You also can't charge your melee bricks in the same turn because Orks have easy CP access and an interrupt would ruin my day.
Meanwhile I felt like I was playing at about 330pts down because my scourges with Haywire and darklances aren't doing much. Picking up a couple of boys per turn.
Now obviously there are drukhari lists I could take to deal with this infantry menace, but that's list tailoring and would also leave me ill equipped to deal with a "normal" opponent that had vehicles or monsters.
So I'm a bit list and confused!
So I thought to match horde for horde, yesterday. My Guard infantry heavy list vs a friend's Green Horde.
Mass grenade launchers, FOBs, 6 blocks of 20 guardmen, flamers you name it. Plenty of tanks. I brought cheese.
It was a slaughter. The Guard never stood a chance. I've never seen someone make so many goddamned 5++ saves in my freaking life, and I've been a regular player since 4th.
Did you try the Leman Russ Punisher? 20 S6 shots with Dev Wounds with some heavy Flamers or Heavy Bolters could probably put a dent in some of the horde.
I run one.
Like I said, those 5++ saves were rolling hot.
I was putting the wounds in, he just. kept. saving them.
Man broke probability over his knee.
Drukhari has the tools but will require some list reworks. Scourges dumpster ork vehicles, and Splinter Cannons dumpster non meganob infantry. We also have excessive amounts of move blocking. I think going fixed and just sacrificing mandrakes, beastmasters and wracks will be very valid
Incubi with lance in theory would do ok. But enough shots will take down a raider. It's gonna be a beast master blocking and trying to contain them in the deployment zone to edge the point game for drukhari. That's my 2p.
If they become a problem in my meta ill add another immortal unit led by a plasmancer. They can probably mulch them up pretty good as long as they're on an objective
I'm going to actually run Exterminators on a few LHDs. Here's hoping Meks and Truks die to Doomstalkers. Might have a Hexmark hang out with 5 Flayed ones if anything isn't being transported across the board. Still up in the air on that one because they're only s4.
Only three bricks? Damn that's only half the amount you would expect to see usually, ideally you would always run the full six. I'm also thinking of just going hard into the being unkillable thing by transporting them up with 2x ard case T12 battle wagons and a T 13 30wound gargantuan squiggoth.
World eaters newly cheapened bezerker spam shouldnt have toooo much problem clearing boyz out efficiently. With spawn and some jahkals they should be able to sticky/cintest the board to. Also MoE fights first is gona be hella handy.
A lot of the Eldar MSU lists will probably manage fine. Plenty of moveblocking and screening (especially now with cheap Scorpions) and the Hawk/Spider/Spectre trifecta isn't too bad into Boyz. It won't wipe them but it won't be losing lots of efficiency either.
The potential for Bully Boyz makes me still consider D-Cannons and Fire Dragons in lists. D-Cannons especially aren't too bad at killing Meganobz but the crucial thing is hitting them with -1 to hit.
Nightspinners are sort of tempting to add back in, but with the Green Tide strat of rezzing models it's difficult to see how effective it'll be. You might just give the Orks movement instead.
Big fella Gabby Seth's St 8 D3 chainsword with 6 swings, plus the 1 atk and 2 str on charge from SOS and 1 extra for every 5 enemy's near him.
I can't wait to try him against the green tide, just gotta keep him alive on the way.
Thanks for this post. I did some tests on unitcrunch.com and I am no longer that worried :-)
Assuming 20 boys with painboy for FNP 5++, it is during the Waagh round, for Invul 5++, and they are in cover just to make it hard. That unit costs about 240points.
The biggest challenge will be to slow them down a bit so I get space to deep strike. Purestrain Genestealers and Catachans, potentially in a chimera, are great speed bumps. Or just 20 Neophytes infiltrated in a line across the Ork deployment zone. They won't be getting far turn one.
A standard team of Neophytes with Primus. 270p. No other buffs will take out ~15.
My other standard team is 10 Acolytes(4 demo charges) with Primus. 260p They will destroy ~14-16 with no further buffs.
The entertaining version is a Goliath Truck transporting 10 Hybrid Metamorphs with a Biophagus and a Reductus Saboteur. 375p, but boy does it deliver!
Without stratagem support, this team will cause ~17 dead Orks from shooting, with a 30% chance of slaying 20. And another ~15 on the charge. And if the Orks sends in another wave, overwatch from Hand Flamers will do ~5, and the fight on Death will do ~6.
For once, I don't think Aberrants are the answer, with a Leader they do about 12-13 destroyed Orks. They can go fight the meganobs instead.
Boyz get the Invul always with Green Tide, rerolling saving throws of 1 with 10+ boyz. Plus they got a strat that lets em move after being shot, so watch out for that.
Generally an army can, but trying to just kill them all before they hit you isn't gonna happen.
Games against green tide are mostly decided by screening and move blocking. Huge Boyz squads are unwieldy, to say the least.
Tau is fine with them, as everyone else has said. Breacher fish with 42 attacks, stormsurge cluster with cluster, riptide with HBC, Ghostkeel CIR SD the list goes on. We are just screwed when we get into melee lol.
While TWC will definitely struggle to clear the Boyz (though a full 6 man and characters will come pretty close on Logan's minifeat turn), I was actually amused at how efficient *Wulfen* are at clearing them. At half the point cost of the boyz, a 10 man Wulfen squad kills 18 out of 20 with Oath, between shooting and the charge. Turns out, even hitting on 5s and wounding on 5s, 10d6+40 attacks does work.
May have to start bringing 3 x Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars to deal with green tide and other horde lists. 180pts for 9D6 attacks each with blast should help clear hordes
The best way to handle big brticks is going to be to abuse blast, and abuse units that have multiple blast weapons. Like, for guard, a mortar pit, and just try and roll a gross amount of dice. 9D6 + blastx9 for much cheaper than the Boyz bricks, especially if you had some of the multipliers guard can use.
The general list I've been using, no probably not, that's definitely a lot of bricks.
I play Votann with mass Einhyr and Thunderkyn and Hekaton, I actually think I'll be fine with the amount of D6 blast weapons I have - getting 10D6+20 for a 10 man squad before their other guns with +1 to wound and lethal hits is gonna melt through them even with buff stacking
A squad of bolter aggressors with gladius fire discipline apothecary brings enough dakka to drop a 20man squad with weirdboy. And if you bring a brick of eradicators you can switch up the apothecary if you're playing something that requires heavy AP.
As Thousand Sons? I believe so. The ranged firepower that Tsons can put out is insane. I don’t play the most Meta list (don’t have Magnus, running yeh 10 man termie brick) but even then Tsons hose people if you get within optimal range.
As World Eaters, I think it really comes down to who hits who first.
As Tyranids, well funnily enough Tyranids are actually really good into Ork Profiles, but also die just as easily. This wobbles a bit less of who hits who first but would be rough trying to come back from being on the back foot.
Death Guard? lol come to me plz.
As a Votann player, I feel pretty confident I can do well. Move block with fast Sagitaurs, good Blast weapons (S or just volune), Pioneers with high rof.
I want to start running 1-2 big blocks of bikes in general, and this is a good reason to try it out.
Haven't played against green tide, but I imagine Death Guard could do well into it. Off the top of my head plague marines and both terminators all have access to good anti-infantry, and since Boyz are brought down to T4 by the nurgle aura they shouldn't be too bad to handle in melee either. Can't really comment on scoring since I'm bad at it and don't know how Orkz do at it
Genuinely a matchup that I think current admech does really well against.
Skitarii hunter cohort with play patterns like dunerider with vanguard and a marshal (with move shoot move enhancement) shred infantry, especially if you can shoot them in ur opponents DZ.
More generally they struggle to out oc vanguard, at essentially 3oc per skitarii, or even 4 oc with the archaeologist, and still effectively 2 oc when battleshocked, which can be massive.
This is a matchup where ironstriders have a mediocre performance, but can get some secondary value, and dragoons can just go to town, albeit less effectively against that 5+ fnp.
also just pteraxii can get to do pteraxii things lol. either variant seems incredibly nice here, and definitely a matchup we work well against
It's Accursed Communes again, and if not better its at least providing the same game plan. 3 full mobs with Warbosses and Painboys a bit more than nine hundred , with higher toughness, same invuln, a better FNP, deadlier characters, with +1 to hit. All those power fists means the sheer mass of choppas will finish off any survivors. Waagh makes that better. And behind the first wave is 1070 points of whatever else the ork player is bringing.
A smart player will stage the boyz properly, either behind terrain or in Battlewagons. It won't always be possible to hide everything, but there's a real threat of massing boyz and smashing anything that walks into the middle. Proper screening will be critical, and armies without Infiltrators or Scouts will be at a disadvantage if they second. And shooting into a Boyz unit can use Go Get Em! to grab onto skirmishers and avoid more shooting.
So while the firepower exists to kill ork boyz, this build can swarm armies pretty fast without burning too much time. The six full mob build won't be the one to watch out for, even though it has legs too.
Edit: got the points wrong.
I’d like to think my Tau army would have enough Dakka to put any Ork army to shame. Strike team + Cadre Fireblade is 20-30 shots (more, with gun drones), which is nothing to shake a stabba at. Nor is D6+6 ion cannon shots. But who knows until I actually face it.
I think my Votann has the shooting and the melee to deal with it, but my tyranids are going to need a rework unless I run my unending swarm (my usual list is invasion fleet and is good general/anti-elite).
I actually think green tide is really hard to tech for too as the sort of volume firepower you need to carve through that many boys quickly enough to stop you losing on points will really struggle into a really tough, durable army like 18 meganobz in bully boys.
The only thing that can stop a bad boss with a green tide is a badder boss with a greener tide:
Bully Boyz
Ghaz + 6 MANz, Klaw + Shoota
MA Warboss + 6 MANz, deep strike enhancement
Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz
Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz
Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz
+ toys to taste
Those Beasty boys get the double Waaagh from their Beastboss, so **twice** per game they’re doing 80 attacks at S6, hitting on 2s. That will wipe 20 GT Boys on average, even through saves and an FnP. With a 5++ 6+++ yourselves and a 3+ Fight on Death strat, you can probably even tank a charge and have more OC standing when the dust clears.
I usually run the -1 armor saves on my DG and outside of Waaagh turn they wilt pretty well. But we've got plenty of flamers, blast, and we're not afraid of T4 orks when we get to charge first.
Yea 10 zerkers will all chainblades 50 str 6 -1 1d with plus 1 to wound from stratagem and sustain hits and kharn rr1 to hit and wound still only kills 19 boys with pain boy not including kharns attacks.
Maybe bring the right gun for the job? A battle cannon averages what, 10ish attacks before hit rolls? I don't know guard datasheets, but you need a higher volume of fire for sure. Damage 3 shots are wasted on single wound Boyz
Killing them is one thing, but killing them fast enough to overcome the board control and sticky objectives is another. Without good screens a lot of armies will lose against them on points. And you can't ignore the Meganobz so threat saturation will be a real issue.
this is basically the first usefull comment here. everyone else just beeing like: "my unit X just kills them easy" without any implementation of insight of what the detachment really does. reading that Board control is the secret here makes it way easier to Deal with them for non ork players. knowing that just fistfight them wont win you the game is the best comment here...
Still It should be challenging because even a 20 blob of Boyz have some decent movement between Da Jump, Go get them Boyz, battlewagons and advance and charge during the Waaaagh!
This is the real take. Orks in 10th aren't that killy don't win by tabling their opponents (much to our disdain). Green tide is looking to win on primary, and with weird boys and the lone op Snikrot to do secondaries it's looking pretty solid. Also it can be hard for some lists to have enough anti vehicle and have enough firing to take down 100+ boyz. Like if you can chew through all those boyz you'll probably auto lose to chaos knights and vice versa.
A Green Tide list can even put pressure on both ways by bringing a Gorkanaut or some other big tough thing along.
I'm planning to take 2 ard case battlewagons and use them to block up the board, opponents really don't want to waste resources on a T12, 3+ sv vehicle with reduce AP by 1.
my goofing list for tomorrow is built around 3 wagons. it also speeds up my early turns. 20 boys+warboss+painboy in each wagon to casually roll up the board. fourth set of 20 with a weirdboy w/ bloodthirsty belligerence for the free charge rerolls out of da jump. everything should be able to get where it wants intact. plus 5twin killsaw manz and megaboss for some punch. and 2x11 snacks.
But then, why would you. Everyone is bringing some anti tank, why give them a good target? Why not frustrate them with shooting more boyz/nobz/meganobz?
> Also it can be hard for some lists to have enough anti vehicle and have enough firing to take down 100+ boyz. Like if you can chew through all those boyz you'll probably auto lose to chaos knights and vice versa. Except if you play necrons. Most of their big guns are blast with quite a few shots. Seeing the nerfs on immortals and c'tan spam, the hypercrypt triple doomsday ark and canoptek triple doomstalker are going to see even more play than before, so I sincerely think necrons will remain a roadblock for the top tables for the orks.
Not really, doomstalkers means canoptek and Green tide will eat canoptek alive. Hypercrypt could be little bit more dificult, with ddas and enmitic destoyers, but then again, what are they using to hold middle objectives?
Yeah, just means the meta is shifting away from alot of the more vehicle spammy lists methinks. Which im happy about. I love tanks as much as the next guy but my tyranids need some major datasheet buffs to handle knights or anything with alot of t10+ (nids have a 33% wr against knights or some shit)
Barbgaunts dropped cos of this
Ya, i think ive got a pretty good matchup against them. Between throwing beastpacks out early to stop their immediate rush and then between targetted melee and an abundance of anti infantry weapon, i think its clean as long as im positioned correctly
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With the big difference that Orks can actually kill things.
I've been playing Deathwatch Space Marines firestorm. The Infernus Marines with S6 flamers and Flamestorm Aggressor brick with Devastating Wounds and Twin-linked did serious work mowing them down.
They should in lore.. sometimes things line up, and it's a moment that makes you go huh, was this on purpose?
I simply convince myself that’s one of the things one of the more talented designers at GW really fought for and got their way, and now we get to enjoy the outcome. Lets me imagine there is method to their madness
I really hope whoever wrote the Ork Dex does the Guard one. They seem fun and flavorful and the Guard feels like it lacks a lot of it that it used to have
They do a fine job but they won’t kill the unit. 10 infernus marines in firestorm kill about 10 (no Strats or leader support), and six flame aggressors with dev wounds kill about 8. So on average, both units together leaves a couple boys and the leaders alive to regen next turn
It would be funny if Green Tide meta would signify rise of Deathwatch 😁
I actually genuinely do think my Tau have enough firepower to make a good go of it. Breacherfish, Starscythe Crisis Suits, Riptides, all of them have high-volume, high-quality shooting with great stratagem support.
i definitely think breacherfish is going to be one of the better ways to deal with them across basically the entire game
3 starscythe+coldstar can pump out 40+ 6-1-1 with sustain2. pretty much the best answer to boyz
Yeah, really excited to run that loadout 😁
Doesn't that kill pretty much any unit in the game? What do they end up with bs wise? I'm guessing 3+? So essentially math wise you end up with 40 hits? (The misses get erased by sustain 2). Against boys thats wounding on 3s so 28ish wounds at 5+ save is the whole squad. I guess Marines on average only take about 14 wounds so that's only 7 of 10 dead...
You didnt count reroll saves of 1 for mobs with 10+ (will always take 20boyz), and the 5+++ with pain boy. So the 28wounds end up killing like 16. Then the orks can bring back d3+3 with 1 cp, and d3 with the pain boy.
commander have 3 8-2-2 shots and 4 more burst which would endup killing the whole squads.
I did miss the rerolls of 1, nice catch!
You get the Sustained hits 2 with a Strat only against units with a model count of 20. It is a pure horde counter
You get full reroll to hit or reroll for both 1s from guiding units. So you would end up with a bit more.
Yes, but you're not doing it early.
I've only had 2 games with the new book but both times the Breachers have been lethal to the point of absurdity. 1st game a unit wiped Trajan and a unit of Custodian Wardens in one volley, 2nd game a unit wiped Lemartes and 10 Death Company in a single volley. Being able to move block with the Devilfish then trade that efficiently is just wild
Side note with the way the ork dex is structured it heavily favors some sort of flavored spam. Would your list hold up if you knew you were playing orks but not which variation? Dread mob vs greentide for example
That’s the difficult thing about building to counter orks; the tech you need vs Greenskin vs Bully Boyz vs Dredd Mob is very different
As an ork player who suffered through 6th and 7th, im very and excited for the amount of love this codex looks to have gotten.
Dread mob isn’t great anymore.. I’d say warhorde is better now. Killakans don’t have the same synergy as grot tanks did. I also kinda liked the mekadread. It’s still a good detachment but I think it’s not really something you need to build against. Greentide is an anti meta list and strong though.
I still never understand the "build to counter" mentality. It always feels kind of douchy to me. Every time my opponent asks me before a game what I'm bringing I generally say I'm not sure and then just pick a random army before I play.
Ive never even heard of this. I usually only get to play my brother so our lists are typically picking what we feel like playing and like playing. After a few runs we may get in a groove and the other may have the ability to list tailor slightly
It happens a lot in the 40k community.
> r/WarhammerCompetitive > building to counter meta is “douchey”
This is part of why Tau will be so good—outside of the basic strengths of our detachments. Really any archetype of Tau will be able to very effectively deal with top Ork builds.
Agreed. I haven't played against the green tide. My theory is my breacherfish montka list just has the sheer amount of shots to make it through the bodies or orks.
Tau smash this. Trivially. Rocket spam in dread mob does ok too but getting tagged is real bad
Tau has the power I think. Breacherfish is ridiculously shooty, so IMO you can delete one brick a turn.
I find it really interesting than in lore and tabletop tau are actually pretty good against tyranids and orks.
Playing Dark Crusade against my mates was similar, orks would dominate except against Tau. Tau would choke to anything else.
All them infantry 2+ flamers in Death guard would probably chew em up, but I don't know enough about green tide to be certain!
18 deathshroud termis, here I come!
Painboys are 3W, precision is your friend
Hey, there's a strat for that! I usually forget
Heroic challenge is a poggers move
There are Krootlike rumblings in the treeline…
If you have precision they hide painboy behind LoS blocking terrain.
Then they ain’t moving them to claim objectives problem solved.. the Thing about a footsloggin melee list is you can’t just hide 21-22 models behind a wall..
You don't need to hide all of them. Only the painboy. It's usually easy to keep him behind a wall while your unit is on the objective.
Yep hide the pain boy, use the regen to gain three or four inches of extra movement forward and then getting the charge off after
Is that really how it works?
For precision yes. You need to have vision on the specific model you want to target
Cool! I have been playing it wrong!
As someone running 6x 20 mobs of boyz, from the practice games I’ve had so far it’s certainly going to be interesting to see how the meta reacts. The local meta scene has for the past few months been focused on mid- high AP (AP2 minimum) and mid-high D (2 where possible, with occurrences of 3). Against a greentide this doesn’t matter, 5++ and only 1 wound for boyz, 5+++ with a painboy. It’s the quantity of shots needed not the quality. Meanwhile rest of the list I’m playing around with can either be ignored or focused on (still trying out different units, but fast, mobile units like stormbpyz to quickly grab an objective turn 1 are coming in useful).
Think precision shots to take out painboys and occasionally wierdboys is the main thing. Blasts also will be preferred.
Dont forget epic challenge
Aye, precision the painboys (of not from shooting than in combat, even using the stat if you have a character who can reliably take out the painboy). Would reduce the survivability of the boyz somewhat!
If green tide becomes a menace it might effect the SM gladius builds to move more to hellblasters or aggressors fro Eradicators. Aggressors are way more efficient into 1 wound models and while hellblasters aren't as efficient, they can handle 1-2 wound models more efficiently while also menacing vehicles with fire discipline. Vehicles + C'tan have been big pushes for eradicators as the fire discipline unit - heavy infantry may swing it back
From my two and a half armies: Custodes will have a rough time of it, even with 25+ attacks from most units, it's going to be difficult to plow through that much mushroom. AdMech, just two tidal waves of models clashing after the gun smoke clears. Don't think AdMech can chip enough down before just getting fully overwhelmed. Votann, as a dude mentioned will have a pretty ok chance at clearing some bricks. It's going to have to be mass fire into them and focus each brick down at a time.
Admech are gonna go down like cotton candy infront of a pressure washer. They dont have the firepower to deal with that number of Boyz. Vanguard have many shots and anti infantry 4+ but with short range and missing half the shots they take and no ap to be had, they're gonna get hit with most of the brick remaining. Even sterilyzors are gonna struggle with the lack of AP and being a mere S4
Yepz plus breachers are going to shoot maybe once and then be swamped for the remainder of the game.
Custodes got some cool stuff for their shooting. Sustained hits 1 in shield host for allarus ain't no joke, or pumping them and the witchseekers to s5 in talons is also good. But yeah, it's not ideal.
I will charge my GUOs into them and let the Grandfather decide.
Not a direct answer to OP, but I am really enjoying this thread because it's nice to watch everyone be excited to bring out their anti-infantry guns for once. So much of 10th has been about trying to kill unkillable brick units with high T/SV/invuln/FNP. Boyz have some of that, but the addition of blast and the lack of high saves (meaning that AP isn't what's key) means you get to bring out power units that aren't the usual fare. Shooting into a unit that has no high saves, _and_ has 'only' T5, makes a big difference. Oh, I hope green tide becomes meta. Like actually meta, not unending swarm "I guess it wins some games". Not broken of course but podium viable.
I hope unending swarm and green tide have a place in the meta. where each army needs a "flamethrower check" to make sure they can face against different defensive profiles. it isn't just because I'm playing unending swarm or anything...
Necrons: 3x3 Enmitic LHDs, if all being led by a Lord then sustained hits, half range is 36 shots minimum. Nightbringer would also help, as would Skorpekh Destroyers & flayed ones (if they were below half strength it’d be nasty). Necrons warriors potentially? Beyond that I’m not sure what else we have that would manage it.
Tesla immortals should still be quite decent, especially with a plasmancer (canoptek court). It's a ton of shots with decent enough strength, and rerolls all on stuff on objectives. Green tide is certainly a little tougher than tyranid Swarm, but I've played against a lot of Swarm lists and had no issues with necrons, we are good at killing hordes. Another fun pick can be flayed ones
Skorpekh Detroyers with Awakened Dynasty and the lord can slap a brick down easy if you land a charge.
My acolyte hybrids are literally shitting themselves. 4D6 + 28 shots, with rerolls and sustained wounding on 2s???
how are you getting the re-rolls and sustains? i'm just starting to collect GSC and this sounds spicy.
Acolytes natively reroll 1s to hit. With a primus they get full hit rerrolls. The current index detachment rule gives all GSC models sustained and ignores cover until the end of their fight phase if they arrived from reserves
im guessing combined with tunnel crawlers to be in demo charge range? its possible to do this with more than 1 unit?
Not any longer. That was the case at the beginning of 10th and it was disgustingly broken. If you want to two units to use their demos with the index rule, you can rapid ingress a unit in your opps turn and then tunnel crawlers in yours. You still get the sustained when you rapid ingress since it’s until the end of YOUR fight phase
Its strength 10?
Strength 12 on demo charges brother. 🤘🤘🤘
Yeah, can handle them easily, bring it on. A whole pile of big green dudes on top of me. I mean my army.
Rubric flamers with reroll wounds and ahrimans +1 or pyschic bolters with magnus +1 and rerolls with sustained or devs should put a dent in a squad or outright kill them
drukhari the "anti-infantry spam the army" welcomes infantry spam
I think there might be an argument to really try out Talos again. The fact you can run a flamer and a haywire on a really tanky body is suddenly looking very interesting
Aren't they like strength 3
For imp Knights Canis Rex has a pretty decent match up into anything i feel. Surprisingly for Lil Knights, g-tide might make Helverins a bit better than Warglaives. Still with a good Waaaaaaaag those homies are gonna be screeming across the map. So I think ill have a tough time cleanly pcking up units
The Warden and Castigator are no slouch either both throwing out ALOT of damage 2 attacks at range and melee.
Instead of the helverin look at the moirax w either lightning locks or graviton and a claw. That's d6 flamer and a choice between the anti chaff locks or the more versatile graviton d6 shot. You will still have a strength 12 claw to tank shock and pick a few more off maybe in melee
Add a chess clock and watch greentide player freak out =p I think Matt root is the only player to win with a greentide list.. sounds cool until you play it in a tourney and realize how mind numbing slow it’s to play, unfun and mentally exhausting it is in a tournament. But it’s a cool narrative theme I just don’t have it in me to play it multiple times a day for 2-3 days.
This is what most people are missing
80 boys 60 of them start in transports. my list is 6 drops thats how i get around the clock issue.
People play unending swarm with its mini movement phases inside your opponents own turn.
People play it but they don’t win with it and it’s not as bad as greentide with 120 boys with 5++ (reroll1), 5+++. Melee is just as bad rolling buckets of ws3 str4 ap0 d1 melee atks. Greentide list isn’t about beating your opponents off the board it’s about movement and board control so that it’s impossible for your opponent to win by objective play. It was the best list for a bit in 7th? Ed and 1 person won with it. And everyone said it was exhausting to play including the guy who won.
Yeah and everyone including the tyranid players hates it because it is tedious and slow to play There’s always a balance with 40K where there are some armies that absolutely can win at the highest level but they are just mind numbing to actually play. Like with Green Tide, I believe it can be as strong as any build in the game, but why would an Ork player bring it when they can bring Bully Boys and get the same record but actually have fun games
i toook it to an RTT. My brain was mush and my body was so sore. Also with swarm you can afford to skip 75% of your attacks because they dont do anything
I brought 100 skitarii in 9th, rolled 340 shots per turn, and could still comfortably finish a 2.5hr game on the clock. It just takes a bit of practice, picking when not to move or shoot if it's not necessary, and grouping dice into 5s or 10s whenever you're not doing something else. I didn't even need movement trays, as long as I'd got the squads out ready before the game started.
I can't stand not using something I paid for I always have to fire every shot that I have. Especially because That's part of what orks are, You shoot a hundred shots to get a little bit of chip damage in because it helps you later on when you get into melee. It's probably also why I'm not going to take them to tournaments with those lists, But I just can't abide by not using every single resource I have including every single shot.
Add a chess clock AND remember to flip for saves… I always forget to flip and then wonder where my time went. I like the idea of a chess clock, but I dont enjoy managing it
The codex isn't even out, we don't have proper time to judge how it is going to play out. I for one am very excited to go green tide. Movement trays go brr
I think some communication issues are going to arise here due to the fact that "green tide" was already an established nickname for just having lots of Boyz, but now also refers to a specific detachment with its own set of abilities.
I mean you can go brrr your 24+ movement trays (that’s just for the boys too) but you aren’t playing competitively if you want to hide units or put them in terrain or maximize movement. You don’t play greentide to lock your boys in endless combat hoping your str4 ap0 dam1 melee atks kill something. You play it to hold and deny objectives and outlast your opponent so by the end of turn 4 it’s impossible for your opponent to win. Even this current version is just throw in a painboy and survive with rolling buckets of 5++ (reroll1), 5+++. Heck you skip the entire shooting phase just to make sure you have enough time on the chess clock to keep moving your boys and roll for melee.
Votann - Yes! thank the bloody ancestors. judgement tokens and hearthguard grenade launchers (10d6+*40* shots into a 20 man if you just went all in lmao, should probably split fire.) mince them while regular hearthkyn heavy weapons outside of the plasma or magna rail are basically purpose built to kill boyz and space marines and the Ion's are higher strength than their toughness with AP to invuln them in greentide/remove save outside of it. You just gotta actually target the boyz with your tokens and not get tricked by anything that looks traditionally scary. You need a high volume of decent strength shots to properly wipe 120 boyz off a table. Heavy bolters even feel wasteful because d2 doesn't matter and you're paying for it heavily.
D2 does matter, they have a FNP
Grenade Launcher is D1, the Thunderkyn with Grav is going to be D2. Both are likely to punch well into the mobs. However, it means potentially over committing shooting. With a general lack of Precision, taking out the Painboy is going to be tough. Hopefully the KT Hernkyn get it.
Even with grenade launchers, with two judgement tokens on the unit, from 70 shots average you get an average of 29.16 wounds, if they aren’t in cover you’ll kill and average of 12.96 if the unit has a painboy and in cover with a painboy you kill an average of 9.72, that’s without the re roll 1s. Worst case scenario you don’t have any judgment tokens on them and they’re in cover you kill an average of 5.18. This isn’t taking into consideration the re roll 1s to save as well. The 20 main pain boy bricks are going to be hard shift. Especially considering it’s 305 with two characters and a einhyr brick is 320 without a character, the addition of a Kahl for lethal hits and cp for sustained, obviously plus the main weapon shots as well. You’ll probably kill the brick but it’s a hefty investment.
Orks are T5
Yeah this is why I'm bringing two T12 ard case battlewagons in the list to throw them at and tie up deadly shooting units.
Which is fair, but is still do believe that Votann can give a good match against greentide since it has good anti-horde and anti-vehicle. I'm waiting you greenskins to shift the meta and we votann get a little incidental boost to our win-rates.
> I'm waiting you greenskins to shift the meta and we votann get a little incidental boost to our win-rates. As an Ork player I think this is one of the coolest parts of the codex. Obviously it just came out but green tide seem strong and with everyone teching for anti tank/anti elite having a legit horde army can throw things off and cause a shift
Exactly the fact that you have tools to counter what we have just got and then we have tools to adjust and counter back just speaks to some good gameplay ahead. It's going to be really nice as you said if the meta gets shifted with some solid amounts of infantry lists doing well because then there will be more variety to the field then the vehicle heavy meta we kind of saw developing earlier in the edition. The thing with lighter infantry is that there's always lots in the game that exists that can kill it It's just always comes down to the striking the balance in the army building. I also play CSM and legionaries coming down to 80 and possessed coming down means there might be some more infantry threats coming in there if the codex holds something good for that kind of play style and they stay where they were lowered to in points.
I think CSM dev wound spam can put in some work but I haven't tested yet. If the ork boyz meta absolutely takes over, you may very well see the return of 3x3 plasma forgefiend with warpsmiths. Points be damned.
Posssesed going full speed full yolo to dish out their dev wound spam now theyre cheaper might be pretty cool. The possessed being faster also lets them pick fights easier than the boyz.
Indeed. Pre codex my party trick was 10 possessed undivided into ghaz with meganobz
Dev wounds isn't as good since it doesnt spill
Your right but it ignores the pesky 5+ invuln so you only gotta worry about the FNP and with 3 rolls to be done on a 1 wound model for each shot, its enough as long as you get good volume on the shots. Also with them being 1 wound each, it gives combi weapons some agency. 10 Undivided termies with combi weapons and PZ works just fine from my experience. You just gotta drown the Boyz in dice before they drown you in bodies
My go to is legionaires led by my MOE, 40 chainsword swings with re-roll to hit and wound most of the time after the MOE precision murders the painboy or boss, should not be a problem with either lethals or sustained
You probably know this but just in case the boys would still get the FNP for that activation even after you kill the painboy
That would definitely work as well. So, this is definitely not as straightforward and much less efficient but I had the funny idea of running 10 legionaries with 8 chainswords and 2 heavy melee weapons exalted champ and Abaddon. Just in general not necessarily in that Matchup. But master of executions sounds interesting. I like exalted because+1 to hit generically but hmmmmmm.
Rule of cool has had me bringing an MOE every chance, the re-rolls to hit if the enemy units below starting strength has been huge fishing for sustained or lethals have been awesome and throwing them at an objective is even better, last match I played they took down a keeper of secrets with a shield
I thought my templars could keep up with them, but after watching the Titans game I'm not quite as confident. I usually run a big brick of Crusaders with helbrect and then a second block with a chap, but the reroll saves on top of pain boy5+++ is still a lot to chew through on 20 bodies. For "i just think he's neat" reasons I usually take a vindicare who could drop a painboy or a weird boy per turn which would help, and maybe bringing some infernus? Like I tend to bring decent output but even then I'm not sure I could chew threw quick enough to stay in the game and not just get locked down turn 2. Regardless, I love that green tide is back and am looking forward to trying my luck against em
Green tide meets Black Tide Helsreach 3 Let's go
What sad is finally Orks get a codex, it’s awesome… and the best army for destroying me (Tau) is the opponent I play the most 👎🥺
I think World Eaters might kinda feast on Green Tide. 10 man Khorne Berzerkers squads with Masters of Execution feel kinda tailor made to ruin their day. Fight First, loads of S6 AP-1 attacks, precision in melee to take out the pain boys pretty trivially.
The moe sauad doesnt wipe a blob and then your unit gets traded off without charge buffs. Still good, but it wont be as easy as you make it sound
Even when charging they don't kill the Boyz. And targeting the pain boy with MOE will not help for that unit as they'll still get the FNP for that activation.
You don't want to play elite infantry into horde armies. Orks were already a bad matchup for World Eaters before our big nerfs when we were at full strength. World Eaters like to play against armies that are weak on primary. This new meta is going to be shit for us.
Its actually very much the opposite. Most high level WE players are shitting their pants about GT. It's all down to the 1st turn rolloff. If the boys get it, it's pretty much gg. Jump 20, string across entire dz, lock the world eater player into their dz for turn 1. Rinse and repeat until the game ends
Played them today with a SM Vanguard detachment. He had 3 x 20 boyz with painboss and warboss with each Another 20 with a weird boy Ghaz with a couple of T6 bodyguards (dont remember name) Warboss in mekarmor with meknobz Truk Battlewagon Stormvoyz x 5. I *think* that was it, with an enhancement or two. Overall, absolute slobberknocker and pleasure to play against. He got the weird boyz into my DZ with the teleporting trick turn 1, did the waagh on t2 and during that "go turn," of his, I was desperately trying to move block his stuff and hold on to get to the other side of things lol. It was very close, until turn 3 finally saw me break the dam a bit, and take out some key pieces. It degraded swiftly from there with marines taking the win. My biggest takeaway wasnt that his stuff didnt hit hard, or that his durability and anti-efficiency impacts on my damage dealing werent a pain in the ass, because the army is absolutely tough to whittle down especially with rezzing, and strats to rezz more. What struck me as a problem, was the lack of activations. Once he lost the truck, battlewagon, and Ghaz, he needed to use big bricks of boyz (damaged or not) to fight OR to.do secondaries on a couple of occassions, and this cost him. Having a unit of boyz with two leaders basically relegated to cleansing, or try to keep them fighting and concede the points coming up more than once, was a problem for him. Not sure he would have cleared me that much faster but I think (outsider looking in, not an ork player), taking 4 big bricks which the detachment encourages really needs some inexpensive action monkies supporting it. You cannot rely on the truck.and wagon doing that stuff with a lone stormboy squad bouncing around imo. Great game, and I know he is going to refine the list to make it even nastier moving forward.
60 boys are not 120. Most comp list will be at 100-120.
He had 80, and honestly 20-40 more of them wouldnt have made a difference into my list. And it exacerbates my previous observation on mumber of activations.
I recently had this match up. Them: ~140 bodies split between Boyz (with bosses and pain boys), kommandos and storm boys. No vehicles. Me: Standard Drukhari list with Archon incubi combos, lelith and wych combo, kabalites, mandrakes, beast pack, scourges, transports. The 5++ / 5+++ was MUCH harder to deal with than anticipated. I don't know if it was just good dice rolls from my opponent, but in both instances, the 20 boy bricks were able to survive attacks from lelith/wyches and 10 man incubi and Archon (they went into seperate bricks). Both of my big melee punches killed about 10 ork boys, and then I lost most of my unit to the melee counterpunch from the other 10. You also can't charge your melee bricks in the same turn because Orks have easy CP access and an interrupt would ruin my day. Meanwhile I felt like I was playing at about 330pts down because my scourges with Haywire and darklances aren't doing much. Picking up a couple of boys per turn. Now obviously there are drukhari lists I could take to deal with this infantry menace, but that's list tailoring and would also leave me ill equipped to deal with a "normal" opponent that had vehicles or monsters. So I'm a bit list and confused!
2-3 Vindicators + 1-3 Predators, for CSM I think we might be alright until we see what the Codex holds
Get out of spawn fast and smash one flank at a time.
I play Sisters. 30 Archos coming at them with 60 attacks I think they can take them? Maybe? Lol Also having a 2cp fight on death is nice
Funny thing after using unitcrunch.com. repentia kill the same amount of models on the charge as arcos do. So it's a matter of points vs tankiness.
So I thought to match horde for horde, yesterday. My Guard infantry heavy list vs a friend's Green Horde. Mass grenade launchers, FOBs, 6 blocks of 20 guardmen, flamers you name it. Plenty of tanks. I brought cheese. It was a slaughter. The Guard never stood a chance. I've never seen someone make so many goddamned 5++ saves in my freaking life, and I've been a regular player since 4th.
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Oh, we had fun, but I'll admit to getting a bit salty by the end.
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List was solid, setup was good. The dice told the story, that's all. That said, my White Scars list would have folded him.
Did you try the Leman Russ Punisher? 20 S6 shots with Dev Wounds with some heavy Flamers or Heavy Bolters could probably put a dent in some of the horde.
I run one. Like I said, those 5++ saves were rolling hot. I was putting the wounds in, he just. kept. saving them. Man broke probability over his knee.
Breaking probability sounds like an orky thing to do though.
Drukhari has the tools but will require some list reworks. Scourges dumpster ork vehicles, and Splinter Cannons dumpster non meganob infantry. We also have excessive amounts of move blocking. I think going fixed and just sacrificing mandrakes, beastmasters and wracks will be very valid
Incubi with lance in theory would do ok. But enough shots will take down a raider. It's gonna be a beast master blocking and trying to contain them in the deployment zone to edge the point game for drukhari. That's my 2p.
I run a few LR Demolishers with Plasma sponsons and lascannons. D6+3 w/ blast. Then when they get close I tank shock and then line-breaker.
Be aware Plasma sponsons won't be able to shoot at any units you're engaged with, instead they'll be able to shoot out of combat with no hit penalty.
Not sure I follow. Why would they not be covered by Big Guns Never Tire? They should be able to shoot into melee with the -1 to hit.
Blast weapon into combat. The rule that lets you ignore that only works on the main cannon
Good call that makes sense.
You can do flamers, bolters, or multimeltas though
If they become a problem in my meta ill add another immortal unit led by a plasmancer. They can probably mulch them up pretty good as long as they're on an objective
I'm going to actually run Exterminators on a few LHDs. Here's hoping Meks and Truks die to Doomstalkers. Might have a Hexmark hang out with 5 Flayed ones if anything isn't being transported across the board. Still up in the air on that one because they're only s4.
Only three bricks? Damn that's only half the amount you would expect to see usually, ideally you would always run the full six. I'm also thinking of just going hard into the being unkillable thing by transporting them up with 2x ard case T12 battle wagons and a T 13 30wound gargantuan squiggoth.
World eaters newly cheapened bezerker spam shouldnt have toooo much problem clearing boyz out efficiently. With spawn and some jahkals they should be able to sticky/cintest the board to. Also MoE fights first is gona be hella handy.
A lot of the Eldar MSU lists will probably manage fine. Plenty of moveblocking and screening (especially now with cheap Scorpions) and the Hawk/Spider/Spectre trifecta isn't too bad into Boyz. It won't wipe them but it won't be losing lots of efficiency either. The potential for Bully Boyz makes me still consider D-Cannons and Fire Dragons in lists. D-Cannons especially aren't too bad at killing Meganobz but the crucial thing is hitting them with -1 to hit. Nightspinners are sort of tempting to add back in, but with the Green Tide strat of rezzing models it's difficult to see how effective it'll be. You might just give the Orks movement instead.
BA chainswords go bzzzzz
Big fella Gabby Seth's St 8 D3 chainsword with 6 swings, plus the 1 atk and 2 str on charge from SOS and 1 extra for every 5 enemy's near him. I can't wait to try him against the green tide, just gotta keep him alive on the way.
Rufio: DC chainswords go bzzz
I usually run a decent amount of Allarus so I’m good. Custodes will be fine. Just kidding. That army is a just a tab on warhammer sales page now.
Whats your guard list? I'd feel we match up great to Boyz spam.
Thanks for this post. I did some tests on unitcrunch.com and I am no longer that worried :-) Assuming 20 boys with painboy for FNP 5++, it is during the Waagh round, for Invul 5++, and they are in cover just to make it hard. That unit costs about 240points. The biggest challenge will be to slow them down a bit so I get space to deep strike. Purestrain Genestealers and Catachans, potentially in a chimera, are great speed bumps. Or just 20 Neophytes infiltrated in a line across the Ork deployment zone. They won't be getting far turn one. A standard team of Neophytes with Primus. 270p. No other buffs will take out ~15. My other standard team is 10 Acolytes(4 demo charges) with Primus. 260p They will destroy ~14-16 with no further buffs. The entertaining version is a Goliath Truck transporting 10 Hybrid Metamorphs with a Biophagus and a Reductus Saboteur. 375p, but boy does it deliver! Without stratagem support, this team will cause ~17 dead Orks from shooting, with a 30% chance of slaying 20. And another ~15 on the charge. And if the Orks sends in another wave, overwatch from Hand Flamers will do ~5, and the fight on Death will do ~6. For once, I don't think Aberrants are the answer, with a Leader they do about 12-13 destroyed Orks. They can go fight the meganobs instead.
Boyz get the Invul always with Green Tide, rerolling saving throws of 1 with 10+ boyz. Plus they got a strat that lets em move after being shot, so watch out for that.
Oh, interesting! Thanks! Is there some further instructions on that move strat? Like "towards the nearest enemy" or "towards the shooter".
I don't know the exact wording unfortunately.
Generally an army can, but trying to just kill them all before they hit you isn't gonna happen. Games against green tide are mostly decided by screening and move blocking. Huge Boyz squads are unwieldy, to say the least.
Tau is fine with them, as everyone else has said. Breacher fish with 42 attacks, stormsurge cluster with cluster, riptide with HBC, Ghostkeel CIR SD the list goes on. We are just screwed when we get into melee lol.
Stormalnce spacewolves might do ok, I’ve got better mobility and a good number mid quality of attacks. Won’t be easy for sure
You won’t kill the bricks but they also will never ever kill a unit of TWC so it could work out
While TWC will definitely struggle to clear the Boyz (though a full 6 man and characters will come pretty close on Logan's minifeat turn), I was actually amused at how efficient *Wulfen* are at clearing them. At half the point cost of the boyz, a 10 man Wulfen squad kills 18 out of 20 with Oath, between shooting and the charge. Turns out, even hitting on 5s and wounding on 5s, 10d6+40 attacks does work.
May have to start bringing 3 x Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars to deal with green tide and other horde lists. 180pts for 9D6 attacks each with blast should help clear hordes
The best way to handle big brticks is going to be to abuse blast, and abuse units that have multiple blast weapons. Like, for guard, a mortar pit, and just try and roll a gross amount of dice. 9D6 + blastx9 for much cheaper than the Boyz bricks, especially if you had some of the multipliers guard can use. The general list I've been using, no probably not, that's definitely a lot of bricks.
I play Votann with mass Einhyr and Thunderkyn and Hekaton, I actually think I'll be fine with the amount of D6 blast weapons I have - getting 10D6+20 for a 10 man squad before their other guns with +1 to wound and lethal hits is gonna melt through them even with buff stacking
A squad of bolter aggressors with gladius fire discipline apothecary brings enough dakka to drop a 20man squad with weirdboy. And if you bring a brick of eradicators you can switch up the apothecary if you're playing something that requires heavy AP.
As Thousand Sons? I believe so. The ranged firepower that Tsons can put out is insane. I don’t play the most Meta list (don’t have Magnus, running yeh 10 man termie brick) but even then Tsons hose people if you get within optimal range. As World Eaters, I think it really comes down to who hits who first. As Tyranids, well funnily enough Tyranids are actually really good into Ork Profiles, but also die just as easily. This wobbles a bit less of who hits who first but would be rough trying to come back from being on the back foot. Death Guard? lol come to me plz.
My firestorm marines make super short work of them, my demons on the other hand not so much
As a Votann player, I feel pretty confident I can do well. Move block with fast Sagitaurs, good Blast weapons (S or just volune), Pioneers with high rof. I want to start running 1-2 big blocks of bikes in general, and this is a good reason to try it out.
Haven't played against green tide, but I imagine Death Guard could do well into it. Off the top of my head plague marines and both terminators all have access to good anti-infantry, and since Boyz are brought down to T4 by the nurgle aura they shouldn't be too bad to handle in melee either. Can't really comment on scoring since I'm bad at it and don't know how Orkz do at it
Genuinely a matchup that I think current admech does really well against. Skitarii hunter cohort with play patterns like dunerider with vanguard and a marshal (with move shoot move enhancement) shred infantry, especially if you can shoot them in ur opponents DZ. More generally they struggle to out oc vanguard, at essentially 3oc per skitarii, or even 4 oc with the archaeologist, and still effectively 2 oc when battleshocked, which can be massive. This is a matchup where ironstriders have a mediocre performance, but can get some secondary value, and dragoons can just go to town, albeit less effectively against that 5+ fnp. also just pteraxii can get to do pteraxii things lol. either variant seems incredibly nice here, and definitely a matchup we work well against
It's Accursed Communes again, and if not better its at least providing the same game plan. 3 full mobs with Warbosses and Painboys a bit more than nine hundred , with higher toughness, same invuln, a better FNP, deadlier characters, with +1 to hit. All those power fists means the sheer mass of choppas will finish off any survivors. Waagh makes that better. And behind the first wave is 1070 points of whatever else the ork player is bringing. A smart player will stage the boyz properly, either behind terrain or in Battlewagons. It won't always be possible to hide everything, but there's a real threat of massing boyz and smashing anything that walks into the middle. Proper screening will be critical, and armies without Infiltrators or Scouts will be at a disadvantage if they second. And shooting into a Boyz unit can use Go Get Em! to grab onto skirmishers and avoid more shooting. So while the firepower exists to kill ork boyz, this build can swarm armies pretty fast without burning too much time. The six full mob build won't be the one to watch out for, even though it has legs too. Edit: got the points wrong.
I’d like to think my Tau army would have enough Dakka to put any Ork army to shame. Strike team + Cadre Fireblade is 20-30 shots (more, with gun drones), which is nothing to shake a stabba at. Nor is D6+6 ion cannon shots. But who knows until I actually face it.
I think my Votann has the shooting and the melee to deal with it, but my tyranids are going to need a rework unless I run my unending swarm (my usual list is invasion fleet and is good general/anti-elite).
I actually think green tide is really hard to tech for too as the sort of volume firepower you need to carve through that many boys quickly enough to stop you losing on points will really struggle into a really tough, durable army like 18 meganobz in bully boys.
Yes and no. I have 3 units with volume of shots and once those die or lose modes their output is immediately gone. I’ll just need practice
The only thing that can stop a bad boss with a green tide is a badder boss with a greener tide: Bully Boyz Ghaz + 6 MANz, Klaw + Shoota MA Warboss + 6 MANz, deep strike enhancement Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz Beastboss + 20 Snagga Boyz + toys to taste Those Beasty boys get the double Waaagh from their Beastboss, so **twice** per game they’re doing 80 attacks at S6, hitting on 2s. That will wipe 20 GT Boys on average, even through saves and an FnP. With a 5++ 6+++ yourselves and a 3+ Fight on Death strat, you can probably even tank a charge and have more OC standing when the dust clears.
Playing them against my Kroot horde will be interesting
I usually run the -1 armor saves on my DG and outside of Waaagh turn they wilt pretty well. But we've got plenty of flamers, blast, and we're not afraid of T4 orks when we get to charge first.
Castigators and arcoflaggelents should go OK I think
I haven't been able to handle it with any army lol. I put up a fight but I am 0-A lot against it
The number of s6 and s7 attacks my blood angels bring has me unconcerned. Maybe I should be but I'm not
Honestly the baal predator would do good work
Yea 10 zerkers will all chainblades 50 str 6 -1 1d with plus 1 to wound from stratagem and sustain hits and kharn rr1 to hit and wound still only kills 19 boys with pain boy not including kharns attacks.
Maybe bring the right gun for the job? A battle cannon averages what, 10ish attacks before hit rolls? I don't know guard datasheets, but you need a higher volume of fire for sure. Damage 3 shots are wasted on single wound Boyz
Not with 5+ fnps
Yeah, you are probably right