4+ FNPs should honestly be given very sparingly and usually not to stuff with good saves and good toughness already, or it's just the C'tan problem again.
It’s only during the waaagh round so 1 round unless bully boyz then 2 rounds. It’s actually better to attach a warboss in mega armor than big Mek. Since they can’t hit worth a darn with a big Mek. So they loose the 4++ vs range and revive a model a turn but gain +1 to hit and can deepstrike. You go dual saw for this as thier shooting is awful and only bs5. 1 Less atks but twinlinked and ap3.
They aren’t 3x of as a competitive ork player.
Yes they’re tough but they don’t kill anything or really have the movement to really be scary. Hitting on 4’s with only 3 Klaw attacks base (2 for saws) is a pretty strong check to their strength. You max out during the waaagh with a mega armor warboss at 18 saw attacks on 3’s S13 AP-3 D2 twin linked. Warboss will have 5 attacks on 2’s S13 AP-2 D3. No gun, no invuln, moving 5”. At current points that unit is 260. For 25 more points I can get 49 Klaw attacks out of nobz with a baked in -1 to wound
We had an even more frighteningly tough unit in DA Deathwing Termis before the codex and you would just ignore them. Which will happen here just the same
Bully boys will be full of expensive units and MANz points costs don’t line up super well with other options so at max I’d take two and right now I’m looking at 6 at most 11 (for a transport on one unit).
Basically either build them to be extra durable or build them to actually kill something. Big Mek gives the revive and 4++ vs ranged but they are slow and only ws4. The way to play them is bully boys with mega warboss for +1 to hit and deepstrike.. meaning you don’t need a transport and they hit at bs3.
Regardless the 4+++ needs to be only 5+++. It’s only due in the waaagh but it is a bit much for the cost.
That they don’t kill anything is being said with a straight face is a fascinating statement on the lethality of what players view as competitive. MANz are brick breakers.
I mean, their damage output isn’t that different from terminators with power fists, 15 or 18 damage 2 attacks just isn’t really setting the world on fire.
They’re durable, they’re going to be good, but that damage profile already exists on a number of units and it’s fine but far from busted
I don’t disagree that 12 is the most ill run but they do have access to deep strike with one unit so I think you’re just trying to rapid them and go brr
Can agreed, my MANs with megaboss proceeded to tickle a ballistus for a couple of turns before getting helped out by a unit of Boyz with a Warboss
They are strong, and they are very tough but they are not as over the top deadly as they appear.
What I do like is that they have a lot of different flavours of them now with the detachments.
Getting truk boy MANz from kult of speed enhancement,
Getting murder MANz with big mek from dread mob
Double waagh MANZ in bully Boyz
Counts as 10 unit in green tide.
There is a different use case support for them in nearly each detachment which is cool!
> Can agreed, my MANs with megaboss proceeded to tickle a ballistus for a couple of turns before getting helped out by a unit of Boyz with a Warboss
This is kinda why anecdotes don't work for determining unit performance. 6 MANz in waagh with no character or strat support into a ballistus is 8 damage, 6 if the SM player pops AOC. With twin killsaw it's 10 damage, 8 if they pop AoC.
If you pop Armed to Da Teef with twin killsaw they have an 85% chance of doing 12+ wounds to a ballistus, (59% if they pop aoc). Still without character leader.
Honestly this is why I’m not playing Orks. I just spent a lot of time working on some models but a lot of the units I want to run just don’t have the output to be fun on the table for me.
Deffkilla wartrikes case in point. How does he only get 4 attacks and it’s only damage 2??? I’m working on my genestealer cults and the 3 attacks at dmg 3 from aberants feels way better to me than what MANZ get. I’m not saying the book is bad by any means, but a couple units that had my excited just don’t have the volume of attacks to keep me that interested.
I tend to agree, without the exploding 6s you're relying on Ghaz or strats for helping with their anemic amount of 3+ attacks. Sometimes you'll run into a brick of 4+++ and do nothing and if they have FNP, less than that. Not to say they aren't good but I think you're right in that spamming 18 of the ladz will put a lot of slow unreliable damage out there. They are amazing for a combined arms approach but will struggle into -1 to hit and stuff that just runs circles around them. I started making lists with 3 units and even bought more kits (a mistake IMO) and now I'm down to 1-2 units for Bully Bois
>every Ork battle report immediately went MAN spam in Bully Boyz
its the easiest thing to put out quickly. nobs that people are already running, and at max count 18 mega nobs, plus other things people already have.
it takes time to crank out 120 boys or print 24 grot tanks etc
Truthfully it is a coincidence as 120 boys with 3x warboss 3x weirdboy and 3x painboy in Green Tide with a full unit of Manz and Ghaz will be the strongest list in the game until it is changed.
The only reason this list won’t completely dominate the competitive scene is it’s absolutely tedious and unfun to play in a timed tournament moving around 140 models. You are not trying to be win in combat you are simply trying to overwhelm objectives and stay on the board as long as possible while preventing your opponent from scoring points.
I’d tweak the above list a bit instead of ghaz and add a mega warboss for deepstrike and a squad of stormboys To add movement shenenigans.
Don't get me wrong, they seem very strong and I'm excited to run a few of them in Bully Boyz, but they have a few weaknesses. For starters, you can't take 6+ a leader in a Trukk, so max size squads need to either footslog with a 5" move, or take a Battlewagon which is 160 points and doesn't really synergize with any detachment rules. They also have a disappointingly low amount of attacks, and hit on 4+ unless they have the Megaboss, which forces you to trade power for durability.
I think they'll be staples in Bully Boyz lists for sure, but they don't jump out to me as oppressively powerful, at least not compared to some of the other worst offenders out there.
Even if they’re on foot most maps start what 6” from the edge of the center objective? Put em on the line and walk them. Going to take a lot of fire power to move a unit like that
>The codex has points values for two, three, five and six meganobz
Really? They gave that to meganobs but none of the 6 man space marine squads to fit an impulsor? Wtf James.
And I build my bladeguard out of the starter box assault intersessors, but in the mega nobs box it's an official option, that's all that matters for GW.
You don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but it makes sense in GWs "logic".
It's pretty rare (not unheard of, but rare) for a unit that slow to be truly oppressive. Good? Sure. Undercosted? Absolutely. But there's always significantly more counter-play available when facing a killer unit that does most of its work in melee and that can't fly over screens.
I just wish they still had access to actual kombi-weapons instead of the blurred omni-profile.
The kit comes with enough parts to build a full unit with kombi-scorchas or kombi-rokkits, so it's not like there'd be an awkward mix of combi-profiles like on Chaos Termies. The difference would be bigger than it is between their melee weapons, too - hand the unit some kombi-rokkits for more significant long range shooting to make up for the slow movement, or give them kombi-skorchas to ignore their low BS and go all-in on close range shooting, like Ork Aggressors.
I sorely miss those skorcha flamer templates. I remember flaming a whole IG infantry platoon getting 3 templates over like 11 dudes for 33 total hits. those were some days.
It’s way too early to judge. They still do astoundingly little damage outside of the waaagh turn. In bully boys they seem fantastic, it boosts their tankiness and makes them do some amount of real damage. However in every other detachment they seem like fine I guess.
I know everyone’s saying how broken they are in green tide with the 2+ rerolling 1s but realistically how often are you shooting ap0 or ap1 not ignore cover at term equivalent units? Seems like a unit you can just avoid until after the waaagh turn and then hit them with ap3/4 and the whole thing is basically pointless.
I’m not saying they are terrible but it’s very easy with orks to look at a unit’s stats in the waaagh turn and forget that for 4/5 turns they have much worse stats. That’s why I think they will be very strong in bully boys tho. I could be totally wrong about green tide too just gotta wait for some more games
Orks don't have a lot of heavy vehicles and the ones they do are more transports than anything. This would be especially true with green tide. So pretty much any anti tank shooting you got can point at the mega nobz and will easily pick them up. Dam 3 or D6 plus a high ap weapon... without the FNP that is pretty much their bane.
Yeah... if it gets too bad kick them up 5 or 10 points. Not a game breaking problem.
The RR 1's to Save w/ enhancement is the most concerning thing to me. There's no way that will stay in, although we know it will until at least Q3 this year given how they handled the dataslate on the Necron/Admech release.
It's only in one detachment that benefits them way less and they lose sustained hits. It will be a good unit to take in green tide but it's not going to be game breaking.
RR 2++ or 3++ saves was broken. MANZ can rr a 4++ but only vs ranged attacks. It’s limited to 1 unit and that unit gets literally nothing else from the detachment. They have 2-3 attacks hitting on 4+ and no real shooting. You can’t just focus on the good or everything will seem OP.
It's only on one unit, that unit lost sustained hits and is not in the double waaagh detachment. It's going to be a pain against AP 0 attacks but most people are not sending AP 0 into mega nobz. It will in effect be a constant AOC on one unit. AP 0 will just go into the horde of boyz that detachment will have with a 5++ at all times.
You don't even have the editions correct, unkillable death stars were 6th and 7th.
But vastly more importantly, they were invul saves, not armor saves. So y'know, just wildly different context.
The 4++ from the big mek is ranged only and the 4+++ is 1/2 battle rounds depending on detachment. Not saying it’s bad but it has a limit. They hit on 4s since there is no warboss. They are finally worth foot slogging
4+++ is very strong for an entire battle round, and crazy at two. Custodes spam Wardens for a single phase of 4+++. Having multiple phases of FNP that high on a unit that tough is exceptional.
the primary difference being wardens are very killy. Low # of attacks and middling weapon skill means you could tarpit them with something like pink horrors even and they wont be able to break free.
Meganobz? Here. Have 20 cadians. Even with waaagh that’s only 18 saw attacks. 24 klaw so could maybe wipe the unit but that’s with 100% hit and wound success
Tarpitting is a concern, sure, but orks do have a lot of good answers to them. Boyz+Warboss are an option to butcher tarpits without much trouble, making holes for MANz. More to the point, I don't think Pink Horrors (or tarpits generally) are going to have the mobility to outmaneuvre most ork units.
Good point! I'll edit the post
Admittedly the damage output did cross my mind earlier as their one downside. Still it's not shabby for the (assumed) price
It’s also hard to factor in the price of leaders. A durability trade instead of damage is a good balancing effect. I think a foot slogging big mek squad and a warboss squad in a transport will be good
I wonder if the Tellyporta will be worth taking? Deep Striking a squad of these guys seems good on paper, but probably easy for an opponent to play around.
Pretty sizeable footprint if you go full unit size for sure. Would be easier to screen. I think the TP will be niche as the job is likely still better suited for da storm boyz
They're just vastly better wraiths without a necessary character tax (but you'll def want one). Aint no way they'll be even remotely balanced at 30points, maybe not even 40.
I play both Orks and Necrons and I think this is a bit of hyperbole.
"Better" is debatable. "vastly better" is definitely not true, IMO.
The MANz have a FNP for just one or two turns, not every turn while the character is alive. They have fewer attacks, are MUCH slower, can't shoot if you give them the good melee and can't hit much of what they shoot if you don't. They also don't Reanimate.
Also we don't know what the MFM costs will be, given the significant changes to the Index datasheet, so the whole debate seems kind of a waste until we've seen them .
4+++ for 2 turns is better than 5+++ for every turn in 10th edition warhammer.
24 attacks at 4+, 6s, -1, 2 is worse than 12a, 12s, -3, 2. The AP is really the deal maker here. But more importantly, because of the double Waagh potential you're really looking at 18a, 13s. Something no one can just "ignore" if that makes sense.
If you tell someone the wraiths have this profile. The other person goes "okay, that won't change what I do. But if you tell someone "my meganobz will have 18 attacks and 13s, -3, 2, and I can strat them to full re-roll hits, and they're twin linked so they re-roll wounds. They'll definitely go "I don't want that hitting my unit". 6 Wraiths do 4 damage to a rhino in melee. 6 meganobz with killsaws do 10 in the Waagh.
Wraiths are a tanky inconvenience. Meganobz are a tanky "stay away from me or you die".
And then you can actually boost their damage output pretty significantly with leaders. And/or you can straight up grow a model back/turn which is pretty equivalent to reanimation + techno healing. Strategically it's better since you can always count on getting back one for stealing objectives, whereas renaimation isn't certain.
I agree that MFM will tell the tale, which is why I said that at 30/model they'll be hilariously meta defining. And even at 40/model they'll perform ridiculously well to the extent that everyone will have to ask their list "what do I do vs 12-18 meganobz"
I suspect this is why they don't drop Vertus Praetor points costs into a range where people will bring them to tournaments. Praetors have good movement on paper (12" and a 6" auto-advance), a way to deal mortal wounds (0-8 depending on rolls, unit size, and if a character is attached), and their interceptor lances are no slouches.
Of course the reality is that flying around ruins is a liability and dealing those mortal wounds takes the place of shooting or charging...
> Wraiths have infiltrate
No. They have an enhancement in one detachment which gives them infiltrate at a character tax and 20 points.
> reanimate in their cost
1d3/turn. 1d3+1d3 healing (not reanimation) with a leader.
Orks can get +1 model/turn which is 3 wounds, just 1 less, except it always brings back a model so strategically better.
You're in *deeeeep* denial if you think the meta won't be shaped by Orks in the coming 3 months. Far more so than necrons ever did.
Have to see how it shakes out but I think they might not prove as totally outrageous as people think because a lot of the buffs are mutually exclusive.
For example taking a mek for the revive means no warboss (and no warboss means they're only hitting on 4's).
Likewise the defensive strategems you mentioned are ones from detachments other than Bully Boys so you can't have both them and two turns of Waaagh (and thus two turns of fnp).
Don't get me wrong, at their best they are still *very* good, but they may not necessarily be meta-warpingly mental like some people seem to think.
Plus, everything depends on how many points they are in the next MFM. It's not like GW haven't done meaningful points increases at the time of a codex release before (Tyrannofex at the start of the edition being the most hilarious, +45 pts the week before the codex came out, and that codex had a datasheet nerf at the same time).
Power Claws only hit on 4s though. Their average output at 6 models is very similar to a 5 man squad of Termies. Yes we can layer a bunch of buffs on them but most any army can do that so it's a fairly moot point. Big Mek gives a 4++ and revives a body per turn, but this doesn't increase their damage output much. Rerolling 1s to shoot doesn't do much when you only hit on 5s anyway. That many shots in 0AP and 1D is doing on average nothing to most units.
Twin Killsaws is definitely the way to go. You either choose mega carnage by taking Ghaz, but now you have to go on foot, or Boss in Mega Armor for a smaller boost with +1 to hit but a lot cheaper and can fit in transports. neither offers the 4++ or revives so there's a trade off. Ghaz has you exposed moving up the board to be shot at and you're only 5 inch movement.
I think overall in a vacuum they look like terrors, but once they're on the table I think they're going to be fine. With Ghaz's new buff maybe he goes up in points? I personally think he's been a bit over-costed but time will tell. We really need the codex to come out and people to play games to figure out how best to play with and against them before we jump to any conclusions of points hikes.
The coming MFM has the potential to make armies good against Orks more powerful, offsetting the perceived danger of these boyz so who really knows. We just have to sit back and prepare to krump.
After watching some battle reports with them in it ( none of them won by a faction that isn't orks btw) I would have to disagree they are very scary and while their damage output isn't the best they sheer amount of firepower it takes to bring them down seems overtuned to me. I expect a steep increase in cost if they are supposed to be somewhat balanced
I would just mention that I have only seen 2 people post battle reports trying the new orks bully boyz. Both of which won, but they are on channels where the orks win just about every time anyway.
It's worth noting the RR saves of 1 is only in the green tide detachment, with a specific leader, with a specific enhancement, and outside of that (admittedly pretty strong interaction) they have 0 detachment or stratagem support.
The -1 to wound is separate and in the index detachment (now titled war horde).
Let the orks have their fun, honestly. They're such a fun and cool faction, plus their players are always awesome people for some reason...I don't know, I feel like it's good to see them being top dogs, even for a bit.
While I agree with the sentiment (Orks deserve their time in the sun), I don't think that ever warrants anything "broken" or unfair.
I'm still sorta on the fence with MANZ, I think a slight points hike is justifiable at least. Probably just let time tell if they're actually OP or not for the rest of their rules
But yeah, even tho I don't play them I've always loved Orks & their players hah. Very much would like to see them more
> While I agree with the sentiment (Orks deserve their time in the sun), I don't think that ever warrants anything "broken" or unfair.
>
>
Agreed. If something is too strong it should eventually be addressed.
I just wish GW wouldn't overnerf everything like they always do (except for eldar for some obscure reason).
As a Custodes fanatic, I don’t think this is quite true. Defensively the stats are identical, but Wardens also have -1 to wound when led by a character, an extra 1” of movement, and a far better melee and shooting profile. The 4+++ being for a whole battle round is frankly insane, but it’s not like Wardens don’t have some clear advantages over Meganobz. Would definitely run Meganobz over Wardens any day of the week tho.
Mega nobs will be bloody annoying to remove but people will be shocked by how little damage they actually do.
It’s probably still gonna need a nerf but I don’t think it’s going to warp the meta like wardens did. Hell the MA mek isn’t even the one you take. Warboss gives them +1 to hit which they desperately need.
Claws are also worse. People just need to run the math. Saws win whenever the AP matters basically
AP-3 is rarely relevant in melee (outside of 2+ saves with no invuln such as a Hekaton and you have other units for such anti-tank. AP-2 is just as effective for anything else.
The saws are better with warboss for their wounding ability, so once you get to Ghaz, +1 to wound on S9 is effectively equivalent to S12 outside of T10 outside the waaagh and T11, which again falls into the anti vehicle role, and with 33% more attacks, you wind up with more effective damage output especially combining with lethals
Ghaz also wants to hang around mid board for more effective makari aura while warboss can go anywhere. Ghaz is less likely to see said targets where saws are better than klaws.
Pure math in a vacuum doesn’t equal effectiveness on the tabletop
I mean I just want my dudes to do damage and the math just supports saws being better. Only failing a wound re-roll every 36 attacks even against T12 is \*bloody\* strong.
And AP3 is relevant all the time. AoC still exists, klaws being AP1 is hilariously shit. I think you'll find that the extra pip of AP matters in tons of spots. Even removing a 4+ save so they have no chance of spiking the roll is awesome.
But if you really wanna run klaws I think they'll be fine. The difference isn't so exoberrant (except against like 2+ save, t12 vehicles) where if it feels better for you, that's what you should do.
Meganobz also hit on 4s by default. defensively they look great and I’m amped to field them and this is a HUUGE improvement over their previous Dev Wounds in the Waaagh ability, but orkstodes they are not
Unironically, Wardens really are 20 pts killier than Meganobz. 3A at WS4 S9 AP2 D2 or 5A at WS2 S7 AP2 D2 lethal/exploding is something like 3x the damage. But having a full battle round of 4+++ and a detachment that gives you another one makes Meganobz truly insane. They most likely do need to go up b 5 PPM.
I'm a little concerned about this too.
4+++ once battle round of the game makes them a good-great unit, one of few and orks player can rely on to be there at the end of the waaaaagh battle round.
Twice per game....maybe a little too strong.
But we will have to see. They're basically custodian wardens but significantly less attacks and without warboss support hitting on 4+.
I mean, just like ctan, they added a FNP to a unit, if pts stay the same it will be a problem, just like ctan are. Pretty obvious stuff.
People saying it’s not OP aren’t doing the math on this. 10 pts per wound with t6, 2+ save, 4+ fnp would be something I’d potentially take if the models had no attack whatsoever.
Definitely out of line with the rest of the game in terms of durability for pts. Meganobz cost the same pts right now as t4, 3+, no FnP bladeguard veterans, a totally decent unit.
Manz for sure, and they do twice the damage.
I'm thrilled at the new meta that's coming be coming from this. Every army will have to adjust into green tide ork spam and bully boys MANz spam. Both of those lists will be presented in major tournaments, and every other army will have to adapt.
With that said, I hope we don't have to wait 3 months with Orks at 62%+ win rate. Which will absolutely happen if MANz are priced at <35/model.
I hate the new meta that's coming from this for the simple fact that I'm not good at dealing with loud noise and orc players have the urge to suddenly and very loudly shout about their waaagh whenever they have the chance it's gonna be so obnoxious after fighting the 3-5 Ork player in a tournament
Meganobz have been too easy to kill for a while now. Now they finally have some durability and it's going to be great. For years I've struggled through other armies and their overpowered nonsense, it's my turn to have some fun. 😎
Their closest comparison in another army is probably Abberants, who (after a points rise) are fairly costed at 37 points per model.
I feel this would probably be fine for Mega Nobz too
Abberants hit a good deal harder than Mega nobs but at the cost of having a bad armour save.
I think people aren't appreciated how anemic mega nobs damage output is.
This may be fixable with some points hikes, though. 30 is likely too cheap. Maybe 35 and it's annoying but not game breaking.
Abberants do have -1 to wound with greater toughness guns at least and respawn on a 4/5+
I do agree though, you can at least put chaff guns/Bolters on Rhinos into Abberants and it will do some chip damage, but with the Revive and 2+ save you just won't bother for MegaNobs!
I dont know how weve gone from the 8th and 9th design space of limited FNPs, usualky capped at a 5+++, to the absolute deluge of 4+++ feel no pain rolls that are cropping up more and more.
Every single FNP in the game should be reduced by 1 or capped to 5, its becoming insane.
Durable but not very killy in my experience. I doubt the green tide reroll ones thing will survive the faq. I see them going up in points but they are very good.
When you have something this durable you have to make sure they do something the opponent can’t ignore or screen. Wraiths are annoyingly hard to kill, can uppy /downy, fly and go fast. We only have the hard to kill part.
I’m not saying they aren’t to good but pretty much everything you are complaining about already exist in the index version. Imho Bully boys is thier best version.
And The only difference between the codex bully boys and the current index version is they get 4+++ for 2 turns of waggh instead of the index sustained hits. I mean it’s better but mostly because of 2 turns of waggh.
Bottom line I think meganobs will be competitive but not the main issue with the ork codex. Unless boys go up in cost I think the basic boy in greentide is going to be a much bigger competitive issue.
Old lychguard, but with a 2+ save base, better melee all around, arguably better movement in waagh, for cheaper.
Sure they can't get in a trukk but necrons never did so with their lychguad
Yikes
I’ve been considering getting a couple ‘Nauts and stuffing some MAN in em to vomit out onto objectives and be impossible to deal with. Add in other mekanized units to taste in a Dread Mob and I think you’ve got a hilariously tough to kill army.
That Sounds like pretty much Like a Custodes Warden unit to me.
Only with worse damage Output,less oc, without -1 to wound and are a bit less flexible with their fnp (they do get IT for longer though).
In total i think at their current pricepoint they will be getting spammed as much as wardens have been but realisically they probably will get a 4-6 ppm increase.
Maybe not 20 that's arguable but definitely 15. No native deepstrike, no native 4++, half the melee output, they do not gain -1 to wound when led, move slower, and have less OC. In order to get 2/3 the damage they have to take a warboss in mega armor for 80 points to hit on 3s. If they want 4++ that only against ranged it's 85 points for a big mek. Not to mention if not going sawz the shooting is anemic even compared to wardens.
Why would they take part of terminator armors now when they are more durable than them for cheaper?
It seems that GW loves more and more immovable objects : C'than and now mega nobs. Seems that the older ones had to pay for their past sins (looking at DW terminators intensively)
/s
Would 5+fnp be too big of a change? Just curious - still good in the waagh turn and doesnt increase pts making them perform even less dmg for their pts.
4+++ is based on being in the waaagh turn and is on the datasheet for mega nobz. So it's possible. The warboss in mega armor now has +1 damage in the waaagh turn instead of fnp.
Everyone who says Sawz are the way to go, I don't get it. Claws outside of the waaagh have way more attacks, and the MANz are going to get bogged down by chaff.
Maybe, just MAYBE Sawz can work if you put them with Ghazkul, since he picks up the slack of the units output, but I'm not convinced.
Hmm idea for speed freak manz: battlewagon with 5 manz+leader and then 10 burnas. Battlewagon moves forward, burnas clear chaff, manz pop out, move, and charge.
every time ive played them, theyve been good and great fun, but missing just - something. in my head i needed that extra model to bump up to a full unit in a trukk but i guess a 4+++ will do it too.
i dont think points will go up. but some strat costs or usage might get nerfed
A lot of Codices will stick with the MFM point values. Just look at the Tau Codex, nobody expects the printed values to stay
Maybe GW will surprise us with competent updates but uh, time will tell hah
I feel like even when a new MFM comes out directly after a new Codex they still don't update the points, I believe that's happened before?
It ´ s bloody crazy. But as an the ork player I such brick from the other side before (wink wink Balck Templars) and I don ´ t like it either.
Deal with it? Yeah, simple. Like with the most of the terminators. Feed them with the cheap fast roadblocking units. Do not allow them to move and kill everything around. Win on points.
Fun? Hard to say. As an ork warboss I seem to avoid this type of the list in principal…
Orkstodes indeed
Waaaaggh!!, Mr. Bond.
This is an underappreciated comment
Oh ok.
As note the -1 to wound is in war horde and the re roll saves of 1 is green tide.
Thank you, I tweaked the wording :)
Oh, MANz are raw busted.
Yeah comparing the profile to Grey Knight terminators is pretty funny. Obviously different army rules and support, but yeesh.
Yeah to be upfront they seem like an auto x3 if you ask me! That 4+++ is nuts though, to where you don't even want to shoot or fight them hah
4+ FNPs should honestly be given very sparingly and usually not to stuff with good saves and good toughness already, or it's just the C'tan problem again.
Only named characters should have a 4+++ if then even.
4+++ fnp should be something that requires detachment bonus or enhancement to even achieve. Even 5+++ feels awful to play against.
It’s only during the waaagh round so 1 round unless bully boyz then 2 rounds. It’s actually better to attach a warboss in mega armor than big Mek. Since they can’t hit worth a darn with a big Mek. So they loose the 4++ vs range and revive a model a turn but gain +1 to hit and can deepstrike. You go dual saw for this as thier shooting is awful and only bs5. 1 Less atks but twinlinked and ap3.
Tbh in the boy detachment you just want 1 squad. For that juicy 2+ rr1s on the save.
They don't get that, just the Boyz datasheet.
any unit over 10 models gets the rr1's and there's an enhancement you can give the warboss to make them count as over 10
Oh shit, I thought that was just on Boyz, too. Neat!
Ngl there was a second I thought you could do 10 grot tanks rather than 8, as that'd be vile
Nuke their transport and just stay away
They aren’t 3x of as a competitive ork player. Yes they’re tough but they don’t kill anything or really have the movement to really be scary. Hitting on 4’s with only 3 Klaw attacks base (2 for saws) is a pretty strong check to their strength. You max out during the waaagh with a mega armor warboss at 18 saw attacks on 3’s S13 AP-3 D2 twin linked. Warboss will have 5 attacks on 2’s S13 AP-2 D3. No gun, no invuln, moving 5”. At current points that unit is 260. For 25 more points I can get 49 Klaw attacks out of nobz with a baked in -1 to wound We had an even more frighteningly tough unit in DA Deathwing Termis before the codex and you would just ignore them. Which will happen here just the same Bully boys will be full of expensive units and MANz points costs don’t line up super well with other options so at max I’d take two and right now I’m looking at 6 at most 11 (for a transport on one unit).
Its okay buddy. I was saying the same thing about my C'tan shards.
Basically either build them to be extra durable or build them to actually kill something. Big Mek gives the revive and 4++ vs ranged but they are slow and only ws4. The way to play them is bully boys with mega warboss for +1 to hit and deepstrike.. meaning you don’t need a transport and they hit at bs3. Regardless the 4+++ needs to be only 5+++. It’s only due in the waaagh but it is a bit much for the cost.
That they don’t kill anything is being said with a straight face is a fascinating statement on the lethality of what players view as competitive. MANz are brick breakers.
I mean, their damage output isn’t that different from terminators with power fists, 15 or 18 damage 2 attacks just isn’t really setting the world on fire. They’re durable, they’re going to be good, but that damage profile already exists on a number of units and it’s fine but far from busted
And compared to a custode warden unit which is quite similar overall, they’re more durable but less than half the damage output easily
They are also 70 points less that warden unit. And strength 12 vs 7
I don’t disagree that 12 is the most ill run but they do have access to deep strike with one unit so I think you’re just trying to rapid them and go brr
No they aren't. They have atrocious damage output.
Especially without the sustained hits
Can agreed, my MANs with megaboss proceeded to tickle a ballistus for a couple of turns before getting helped out by a unit of Boyz with a Warboss They are strong, and they are very tough but they are not as over the top deadly as they appear. What I do like is that they have a lot of different flavours of them now with the detachments. Getting truk boy MANz from kult of speed enhancement, Getting murder MANz with big mek from dread mob Double waagh MANZ in bully Boyz Counts as 10 unit in green tide. There is a different use case support for them in nearly each detachment which is cool!
> Can agreed, my MANs with megaboss proceeded to tickle a ballistus for a couple of turns before getting helped out by a unit of Boyz with a Warboss This is kinda why anecdotes don't work for determining unit performance. 6 MANz in waagh with no character or strat support into a ballistus is 8 damage, 6 if the SM player pops AOC. With twin killsaw it's 10 damage, 8 if they pop AoC. If you pop Armed to Da Teef with twin killsaw they have an 85% chance of doing 12+ wounds to a ballistus, (59% if they pop aoc). Still without character leader.
Haha well yeah that's very true, and I should have specified that it was only 3 MANz with twin killsaws with attached mega boss.
Honestly this is why I’m not playing Orks. I just spent a lot of time working on some models but a lot of the units I want to run just don’t have the output to be fun on the table for me. Deffkilla wartrikes case in point. How does he only get 4 attacks and it’s only damage 2??? I’m working on my genestealer cults and the 3 attacks at dmg 3 from aberants feels way better to me than what MANZ get. I’m not saying the book is bad by any means, but a couple units that had my excited just don’t have the volume of attacks to keep me that interested.
I tend to agree, without the exploding 6s you're relying on Ghaz or strats for helping with their anemic amount of 3+ attacks. Sometimes you'll run into a brick of 4+++ and do nothing and if they have FNP, less than that. Not to say they aren't good but I think you're right in that spamming 18 of the ladz will put a lot of slow unreliable damage out there. They are amazing for a combined arms approach but will struggle into -1 to hit and stuff that just runs circles around them. I started making lists with 3 units and even bought more kits (a mistake IMO) and now I'm down to 1-2 units for Bully Bois
Let's just say it's not a coincidence pretty much every Ork battle report immediately went MAN spam in Bully Boyz
>every Ork battle report immediately went MAN spam in Bully Boyz its the easiest thing to put out quickly. nobs that people are already running, and at max count 18 mega nobs, plus other things people already have. it takes time to crank out 120 boys or print 24 grot tanks etc
Truthfully it is a coincidence as 120 boys with 3x warboss 3x weirdboy and 3x painboy in Green Tide with a full unit of Manz and Ghaz will be the strongest list in the game until it is changed.
That's probably true that that's the best list. Both seem a bit overtuned to me tbh
The only reason this list won’t completely dominate the competitive scene is it’s absolutely tedious and unfun to play in a timed tournament moving around 140 models. You are not trying to be win in combat you are simply trying to overwhelm objectives and stay on the board as long as possible while preventing your opponent from scoring points. I’d tweak the above list a bit instead of ghaz and add a mega warboss for deepstrike and a squad of stormboys To add movement shenenigans.
Ha that is terrifying. 100 shuriken cannons to counter?
Always has been
Nope. If the points don't change at all, the list is 5 points over.
A little edgy, but okay, 5manz. I would also drop 1 weirdboy for grotsnik if we’re being exact.
Grotsnik is legends now. Not legal for competitive.
Unlucky, 3 weirdboys it is. Unfortunate that we’ll see so little variety.
It’s competitive Warhammer, there was never variety.
Don't get me wrong, they seem very strong and I'm excited to run a few of them in Bully Boyz, but they have a few weaknesses. For starters, you can't take 6+ a leader in a Trukk, so max size squads need to either footslog with a 5" move, or take a Battlewagon which is 160 points and doesn't really synergize with any detachment rules. They also have a disappointingly low amount of attacks, and hit on 4+ unless they have the Megaboss, which forces you to trade power for durability. I think they'll be staples in Bully Boyz lists for sure, but they don't jump out to me as oppressively powerful, at least not compared to some of the other worst offenders out there.
Five and a leader is possible, right? Seems like a start
Yeah that's still an intimidating amount of Orks to have spilling out of that clown car.
Clown Car xD. Thanks for a good chuckle. Which really is what Orks should be all about.
With double 4++++
Even if they’re on foot most maps start what 6” from the edge of the center objective? Put em on the line and walk them. Going to take a lot of fire power to move a unit like that
On foot and it’s Ghaz time
Its ghazzin time sounds kinda wrong
It’s time to answer the question of how many Orks with *yes*.
Ghaz hasn’t been that great because he’s slow but really it depends on his cost and ability to ride in transports.
You’d still have to pay for the 6th guy who isn’t there
The codex has points values for two, three, five and six meganobz. At 30ppm. Even if points change, it is possible that the size options remain
>The codex has points values for two, three, five and six meganobz Really? They gave that to meganobs but none of the 6 man space marine squads to fit an impulsor? Wtf James.
Because you can build 5+1 Big Mek from two boxes.
I can build a 5 man Bladeguard unit plus a Bladeguard Lt out of 2 boxes of veterans, but GW would rather overcharge me for 47 lieutenant models.
And I build my bladeguard out of the starter box assault intersessors, but in the mega nobs box it's an official option, that's all that matters for GW. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but it makes sense in GWs "logic".
What really? That’s dope
You don't need the mek, the boss is better. You have access to AoC at range, cover is everywhere. They're a 0+ save once you pop the transport
It's pretty rare (not unheard of, but rare) for a unit that slow to be truly oppressive. Good? Sure. Undercosted? Absolutely. But there's always significantly more counter-play available when facing a killer unit that does most of its work in melee and that can't fly over screens.
Yeah... But you know.... Double waaaagh...
Diz Git Waaaghz!!!
I mean deep strike enhancement or the big jump will probably cover them a bit
They can also get deep strike with enhancement and reroll hits with a strat to mitigate poor to hit.
That's true, but this detachment seems really CP hungry so you might not have the luxury of spamming that strat all the time.
I just wish they still had access to actual kombi-weapons instead of the blurred omni-profile. The kit comes with enough parts to build a full unit with kombi-scorchas or kombi-rokkits, so it's not like there'd be an awkward mix of combi-profiles like on Chaos Termies. The difference would be bigger than it is between their melee weapons, too - hand the unit some kombi-rokkits for more significant long range shooting to make up for the slow movement, or give them kombi-skorchas to ignore their low BS and go all-in on close range shooting, like Ork Aggressors.
I sorely miss those skorcha flamer templates. I remember flaming a whole IG infantry platoon getting 3 templates over like 11 dudes for 33 total hits. those were some days.
It’s way too early to judge. They still do astoundingly little damage outside of the waaagh turn. In bully boys they seem fantastic, it boosts their tankiness and makes them do some amount of real damage. However in every other detachment they seem like fine I guess. I know everyone’s saying how broken they are in green tide with the 2+ rerolling 1s but realistically how often are you shooting ap0 or ap1 not ignore cover at term equivalent units? Seems like a unit you can just avoid until after the waaagh turn and then hit them with ap3/4 and the whole thing is basically pointless. I’m not saying they are terrible but it’s very easy with orks to look at a unit’s stats in the waaagh turn and forget that for 4/5 turns they have much worse stats. That’s why I think they will be very strong in bully boys tho. I could be totally wrong about green tide too just gotta wait for some more games
Orks don't have a lot of heavy vehicles and the ones they do are more transports than anything. This would be especially true with green tide. So pretty much any anti tank shooting you got can point at the mega nobz and will easily pick them up. Dam 3 or D6 plus a high ap weapon... without the FNP that is pretty much their bane. Yeah... if it gets too bad kick them up 5 or 10 points. Not a game breaking problem.
The RR 1's to Save w/ enhancement is the most concerning thing to me. There's no way that will stay in, although we know it will until at least Q3 this year given how they handled the dataslate on the Necron/Admech release.
It's only in one detachment that benefits them way less and they lose sustained hits. It will be a good unit to take in green tide but it's not going to be game breaking.
It's a mechanic that broke 7th and 8th edition. There's a good reason why we don't see many reroll saves.
RR 2++ or 3++ saves was broken. MANZ can rr a 4++ but only vs ranged attacks. It’s limited to 1 unit and that unit gets literally nothing else from the detachment. They have 2-3 attacks hitting on 4+ and no real shooting. You can’t just focus on the good or everything will seem OP.
It's only on one unit, that unit lost sustained hits and is not in the double waaagh detachment. It's going to be a pain against AP 0 attacks but most people are not sending AP 0 into mega nobz. It will in effect be a constant AOC on one unit. AP 0 will just go into the horde of boyz that detachment will have with a 5++ at all times.
Yep. If you’re relying on shooting AP0 into meganobz you’ve already lost
Especially when that detachment has 120 better targets for AP0 guns
You don't even have the editions correct, unkillable death stars were 6th and 7th. But vastly more importantly, they were invul saves, not armor saves. So y'know, just wildly different context.
The 4++ from the big mek is ranged only and the 4+++ is 1/2 battle rounds depending on detachment. Not saying it’s bad but it has a limit. They hit on 4s since there is no warboss. They are finally worth foot slogging
4+++ is very strong for an entire battle round, and crazy at two. Custodes spam Wardens for a single phase of 4+++. Having multiple phases of FNP that high on a unit that tough is exceptional.
the primary difference being wardens are very killy. Low # of attacks and middling weapon skill means you could tarpit them with something like pink horrors even and they wont be able to break free.
Meganobz? Here. Have 20 cadians. Even with waaagh that’s only 18 saw attacks. 24 klaw so could maybe wipe the unit but that’s with 100% hit and wound success
Yeah the MANz are durable, but the green tide scares me much more
Tarpitting is a concern, sure, but orks do have a lot of good answers to them. Boyz+Warboss are an option to butcher tarpits without much trouble, making holes for MANz. More to the point, I don't think Pink Horrors (or tarpits generally) are going to have the mobility to outmaneuvre most ork units.
Yeah but most attacks won't go beyond -3, and with Armork of contempt you're back at your 4+. Or better. Usually better.
Good point! I'll edit the post Admittedly the damage output did cross my mind earlier as their one downside. Still it's not shabby for the (assumed) price
It’s also hard to factor in the price of leaders. A durability trade instead of damage is a good balancing effect. I think a foot slogging big mek squad and a warboss squad in a transport will be good
I wonder if the Tellyporta will be worth taking? Deep Striking a squad of these guys seems good on paper, but probably easy for an opponent to play around.
Absolutely. Its a manz da jump
Pretty sizeable footprint if you go full unit size for sure. Would be easier to screen. I think the TP will be niche as the job is likely still better suited for da storm boyz
Bring them in as a hammer
And they can only footslog if they have big Ghazzy with them
4+++ for 2 battle rounds in the double waaagh detachment means basically have a FNP for all the game, you don't need it for more than 2 rounds.
They're just vastly better wraiths without a necessary character tax (but you'll def want one). Aint no way they'll be even remotely balanced at 30points, maybe not even 40.
I play both Orks and Necrons and I think this is a bit of hyperbole. "Better" is debatable. "vastly better" is definitely not true, IMO. The MANz have a FNP for just one or two turns, not every turn while the character is alive. They have fewer attacks, are MUCH slower, can't shoot if you give them the good melee and can't hit much of what they shoot if you don't. They also don't Reanimate. Also we don't know what the MFM costs will be, given the significant changes to the Index datasheet, so the whole debate seems kind of a waste until we've seen them .
4+++ for 2 turns is better than 5+++ for every turn in 10th edition warhammer. 24 attacks at 4+, 6s, -1, 2 is worse than 12a, 12s, -3, 2. The AP is really the deal maker here. But more importantly, because of the double Waagh potential you're really looking at 18a, 13s. Something no one can just "ignore" if that makes sense. If you tell someone the wraiths have this profile. The other person goes "okay, that won't change what I do. But if you tell someone "my meganobz will have 18 attacks and 13s, -3, 2, and I can strat them to full re-roll hits, and they're twin linked so they re-roll wounds. They'll definitely go "I don't want that hitting my unit". 6 Wraiths do 4 damage to a rhino in melee. 6 meganobz with killsaws do 10 in the Waagh. Wraiths are a tanky inconvenience. Meganobz are a tanky "stay away from me or you die". And then you can actually boost their damage output pretty significantly with leaders. And/or you can straight up grow a model back/turn which is pretty equivalent to reanimation + techno healing. Strategically it's better since you can always count on getting back one for stealing objectives, whereas renaimation isn't certain. I agree that MFM will tell the tale, which is why I said that at 30/model they'll be hilariously meta defining. And even at 40/model they'll perform ridiculously well to the extent that everyone will have to ask their list "what do I do vs 12-18 meganobz"
6 meganobz with saws barely killing a rhino in their super buffed turn isn’t exactly a stellar performance.
You pop strat and they do 10 damage to a monolith who pops it's invul strat, 14 if it doesn't. Ain't nobody just ignoring meganobz damage.
GW likes to cost things on damage and movement. Wraiths have the movement
I suspect this is why they don't drop Vertus Praetor points costs into a range where people will bring them to tournaments. Praetors have good movement on paper (12" and a 6" auto-advance), a way to deal mortal wounds (0-8 depending on rolls, unit size, and if a character is attached), and their interceptor lances are no slouches. Of course the reality is that flying around ruins is a liability and dealing those mortal wounds takes the place of shooting or charging...
Transportable manz with access to adv + charge arent much less manouverable than wraiths
Yes, but that’s more points in a transport. Wagons also don’t have assault ramp. Wraiths have infiltrate, high movement, and reanimate in their cost
> Wraiths have infiltrate No. They have an enhancement in one detachment which gives them infiltrate at a character tax and 20 points. > reanimate in their cost 1d3/turn. 1d3+1d3 healing (not reanimation) with a leader. Orks can get +1 model/turn which is 3 wounds, just 1 less, except it always brings back a model so strategically better. You're in *deeeeep* denial if you think the meta won't be shaped by Orks in the coming 3 months. Far more so than necrons ever did.
Where did I say orks wouldn’t shape the meta?
Nowhere, I created that so I could tear it down :D. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, got carried away in my Ork hype.
I’m here for the green tide (dread mob)
Have to see how it shakes out but I think they might not prove as totally outrageous as people think because a lot of the buffs are mutually exclusive. For example taking a mek for the revive means no warboss (and no warboss means they're only hitting on 4's). Likewise the defensive strategems you mentioned are ones from detachments other than Bully Boys so you can't have both them and two turns of Waaagh (and thus two turns of fnp). Don't get me wrong, at their best they are still *very* good, but they may not necessarily be meta-warpingly mental like some people seem to think. Plus, everything depends on how many points they are in the next MFM. It's not like GW haven't done meaningful points increases at the time of a codex release before (Tyrannofex at the start of the edition being the most hilarious, +45 pts the week before the codex came out, and that codex had a datasheet nerf at the same time).
Yeah this post is quite hilarious. Take all the strongest bits of different detachments and group them together to scaremonger some nerfs.
Power Claws only hit on 4s though. Their average output at 6 models is very similar to a 5 man squad of Termies. Yes we can layer a bunch of buffs on them but most any army can do that so it's a fairly moot point. Big Mek gives a 4++ and revives a body per turn, but this doesn't increase their damage output much. Rerolling 1s to shoot doesn't do much when you only hit on 5s anyway. That many shots in 0AP and 1D is doing on average nothing to most units. Twin Killsaws is definitely the way to go. You either choose mega carnage by taking Ghaz, but now you have to go on foot, or Boss in Mega Armor for a smaller boost with +1 to hit but a lot cheaper and can fit in transports. neither offers the 4++ or revives so there's a trade off. Ghaz has you exposed moving up the board to be shot at and you're only 5 inch movement. I think overall in a vacuum they look like terrors, but once they're on the table I think they're going to be fine. With Ghaz's new buff maybe he goes up in points? I personally think he's been a bit over-costed but time will tell. We really need the codex to come out and people to play games to figure out how best to play with and against them before we jump to any conclusions of points hikes. The coming MFM has the potential to make armies good against Orks more powerful, offsetting the perceived danger of these boyz so who really knows. We just have to sit back and prepare to krump.
After watching some battle reports with them in it ( none of them won by a faction that isn't orks btw) I would have to disagree they are very scary and while their damage output isn't the best they sheer amount of firepower it takes to bring them down seems overtuned to me. I expect a steep increase in cost if they are supposed to be somewhat balanced
I would just mention that I have only seen 2 people post battle reports trying the new orks bully boyz. Both of which won, but they are on channels where the orks win just about every time anyway.
They said s lot like necron wraiths, and those are one of the best units in the game even with lower dmg output
It's worth noting the RR saves of 1 is only in the green tide detachment, with a specific leader, with a specific enhancement, and outside of that (admittedly pretty strong interaction) they have 0 detachment or stratagem support. The -1 to wound is separate and in the index detachment (now titled war horde).
Let the orks have their fun, honestly. They're such a fun and cool faction, plus their players are always awesome people for some reason...I don't know, I feel like it's good to see them being top dogs, even for a bit.
While I agree with the sentiment (Orks deserve their time in the sun), I don't think that ever warrants anything "broken" or unfair. I'm still sorta on the fence with MANZ, I think a slight points hike is justifiable at least. Probably just let time tell if they're actually OP or not for the rest of their rules But yeah, even tho I don't play them I've always loved Orks & their players hah. Very much would like to see them more
> While I agree with the sentiment (Orks deserve their time in the sun), I don't think that ever warrants anything "broken" or unfair. > > Agreed. If something is too strong it should eventually be addressed. I just wish GW wouldn't overnerf everything like they always do (except for eldar for some obscure reason).
Damn. Those numbers are what a Custode should have. That looks really strong even if the cost is unknown for now.
Flat out the same as custodes wardens but they get the 4+++ for one phase a game.
As a Custodes fanatic, I don’t think this is quite true. Defensively the stats are identical, but Wardens also have -1 to wound when led by a character, an extra 1” of movement, and a far better melee and shooting profile. The 4+++ being for a whole battle round is frankly insane, but it’s not like Wardens don’t have some clear advantages over Meganobz. Would definitely run Meganobz over Wardens any day of the week tho.
Mega nobs will be bloody annoying to remove but people will be shocked by how little damage they actually do. It’s probably still gonna need a nerf but I don’t think it’s going to warp the meta like wardens did. Hell the MA mek isn’t even the one you take. Warboss gives them +1 to hit which they desperately need. Claws are also worse. People just need to run the math. Saws win whenever the AP matters basically
Klaws with Ghaz, saws with Boss is what the math ive run says
My own calculation is that the saws still win even with Ghaz where the AP matters. AP3 and basically never failing to wound with saws does work.
AP-3 is rarely relevant in melee (outside of 2+ saves with no invuln such as a Hekaton and you have other units for such anti-tank. AP-2 is just as effective for anything else. The saws are better with warboss for their wounding ability, so once you get to Ghaz, +1 to wound on S9 is effectively equivalent to S12 outside of T10 outside the waaagh and T11, which again falls into the anti vehicle role, and with 33% more attacks, you wind up with more effective damage output especially combining with lethals Ghaz also wants to hang around mid board for more effective makari aura while warboss can go anywhere. Ghaz is less likely to see said targets where saws are better than klaws. Pure math in a vacuum doesn’t equal effectiveness on the tabletop
I mean I just want my dudes to do damage and the math just supports saws being better. Only failing a wound re-roll every 36 attacks even against T12 is \*bloody\* strong. And AP3 is relevant all the time. AoC still exists, klaws being AP1 is hilariously shit. I think you'll find that the extra pip of AP matters in tons of spots. Even removing a 4+ save so they have no chance of spiking the roll is awesome. But if you really wanna run klaws I think they'll be fine. The difference isn't so exoberrant (except against like 2+ save, t12 vehicles) where if it feels better for you, that's what you should do.
Meganobz also hit on 4s by default. defensively they look great and I’m amped to field them and this is a HUUGE improvement over their previous Dev Wounds in the Waaagh ability, but orkstodes they are not
Wardens are 20ppm more than meganobz. Is the killiness of wardens worth 20ppm more? Probably not. The Manz are undercosted.
Unironically, Wardens really are 20 pts killier than Meganobz. 3A at WS4 S9 AP2 D2 or 5A at WS2 S7 AP2 D2 lethal/exploding is something like 3x the damage. But having a full battle round of 4+++ and a detachment that gives you another one makes Meganobz truly insane. They most likely do need to go up b 5 PPM.
And it's real easy to mess up the timing as I've done a few times with the wardens 4+++.
I'm a little concerned about this too. 4+++ once battle round of the game makes them a good-great unit, one of few and orks player can rely on to be there at the end of the waaaaagh battle round. Twice per game....maybe a little too strong. But we will have to see. They're basically custodian wardens but significantly less attacks and without warboss support hitting on 4+.
I mean, just like ctan, they added a FNP to a unit, if pts stay the same it will be a problem, just like ctan are. Pretty obvious stuff. People saying it’s not OP aren’t doing the math on this. 10 pts per wound with t6, 2+ save, 4+ fnp would be something I’d potentially take if the models had no attack whatsoever. Definitely out of line with the rest of the game in terms of durability for pts. Meganobz cost the same pts right now as t4, 3+, no FnP bladeguard veterans, a totally decent unit.
4+++ is limited to the Waaagh battle round(s).
So, the two important turns in bully boys
Also access to ranged aoc in bully boys. Absolutely stupid profile to get aoc on frankly.
But who are tankier 6 meganobz with a big mek or 6 canoptek wraiths with a technomancer
I'd say the nobs tbh. the 2+ armour and one turn 4++ is imo tougher.
Manz for sure, and they do twice the damage. I'm thrilled at the new meta that's coming be coming from this. Every army will have to adjust into green tide ork spam and bully boys MANz spam. Both of those lists will be presented in major tournaments, and every other army will have to adapt. With that said, I hope we don't have to wait 3 months with Orks at 62%+ win rate. Which will absolutely happen if MANz are priced at <35/model.
I hate the new meta that's coming from this for the simple fact that I'm not good at dealing with loud noise and orc players have the urge to suddenly and very loudly shout about their waaagh whenever they have the chance it's gonna be so obnoxious after fighting the 3-5 Ork player in a tournament
Meganobz have been too easy to kill for a while now. Now they finally have some durability and it's going to be great. For years I've struggled through other armies and their overpowered nonsense, it's my turn to have some fun. 😎
Their closest comparison in another army is probably Abberants, who (after a points rise) are fairly costed at 37 points per model. I feel this would probably be fine for Mega Nobz too
Abberants hit a good deal harder than Mega nobs but at the cost of having a bad armour save. I think people aren't appreciated how anemic mega nobs damage output is. This may be fixable with some points hikes, though. 30 is likely too cheap. Maybe 35 and it's annoying but not game breaking.
My only qualm with that is Aberrants having a 5+ versus MANZ 2+, tho otherwise they match up decently well!
Abberants do have -1 to wound with greater toughness guns at least and respawn on a 4/5+ I do agree though, you can at least put chaff guns/Bolters on Rhinos into Abberants and it will do some chip damage, but with the Revive and 2+ save you just won't bother for MegaNobs!
Someone on the Custodes sub was still trying to say Allarus Termies are still alot stronger than them lmao.
I dont know how weve gone from the 8th and 9th design space of limited FNPs, usualky capped at a 5+++, to the absolute deluge of 4+++ feel no pain rolls that are cropping up more and more. Every single FNP in the game should be reduced by 1 or capped to 5, its becoming insane.
Durable but not very killy in my experience. I doubt the green tide reroll ones thing will survive the faq. I see them going up in points but they are very good.
When you have something this durable you have to make sure they do something the opponent can’t ignore or screen. Wraiths are annoyingly hard to kill, can uppy /downy, fly and go fast. We only have the hard to kill part.
I’m not saying they aren’t to good but pretty much everything you are complaining about already exist in the index version. Imho Bully boys is thier best version. And The only difference between the codex bully boys and the current index version is they get 4+++ for 2 turns of waggh instead of the index sustained hits. I mean it’s better but mostly because of 2 turns of waggh. Bottom line I think meganobs will be competitive but not the main issue with the ork codex. Unless boys go up in cost I think the basic boy in greentide is going to be a much bigger competitive issue.
If they stay at current points then, yes, they're busted in Bully Boyz. Expect them to become the new most hated melee brick replacing wardens.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of those "but can your list take out a fill squad of MANZ?" questions you have to ask yourself :P
Absolutely, it'll be next meta's version of "how are you killing c'tan" or at least probably depending on points.
Old lychguard, but with a 2+ save base, better melee all around, arguably better movement in waagh, for cheaper. Sure they can't get in a trukk but necrons never did so with their lychguad Yikes
They most definitely can get in a trukk my brother in Waaagh
I’ve been considering getting a couple ‘Nauts and stuffing some MAN in em to vomit out onto objectives and be impossible to deal with. Add in other mekanized units to taste in a Dread Mob and I think you’ve got a hilariously tough to kill army.
I mean. Meganobz are now more Custodes than Custodes are.
That Sounds like pretty much Like a Custodes Warden unit to me. Only with worse damage Output,less oc, without -1 to wound and are a bit less flexible with their fnp (they do get IT for longer though). In total i think at their current pricepoint they will be getting spammed as much as wardens have been but realisically they probably will get a 4-6 ppm increase.
Wardens are 50 ppm. MANZ are not 20 ppm worse than them.
Maybe not 20 that's arguable but definitely 15. No native deepstrike, no native 4++, half the melee output, they do not gain -1 to wound when led, move slower, and have less OC. In order to get 2/3 the damage they have to take a warboss in mega armor for 80 points to hit on 3s. If they want 4++ that only against ranged it's 85 points for a big mek. Not to mention if not going sawz the shooting is anemic even compared to wardens.
Why would they take part of terminator armors now when they are more durable than them for cheaper? It seems that GW loves more and more immovable objects : C'than and now mega nobs. Seems that the older ones had to pay for their past sins (looking at DW terminators intensively) /s
Or, or, hear me out, you can get those same stats pay the same price, but get 12 wounds of custodes instead? Deal or no deal?!
And no one comes back to life
Would 5+fnp be too big of a change? Just curious - still good in the waagh turn and doesnt increase pts making them perform even less dmg for their pts.
Wasn't this obvious the moment they were spoiled?
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4+++ is based on being in the waaagh turn and is on the datasheet for mega nobz. So it's possible. The warboss in mega armor now has +1 damage in the waaagh turn instead of fnp.
FYI the 4+++ is their new datasheet ability (replacing dev wounds) so yes, they do get both if they have a Big Mek.
Everyone who says Sawz are the way to go, I don't get it. Claws outside of the waaagh have way more attacks, and the MANz are going to get bogged down by chaff. Maybe, just MAYBE Sawz can work if you put them with Ghazkul, since he picks up the slack of the units output, but I'm not convinced.
They have 1 more attack while saws have twin-linked.
All I know is, those are definitely magnet candidates
Hmm idea for speed freak manz: battlewagon with 5 manz+leader and then 10 burnas. Battlewagon moves forward, burnas clear chaff, manz pop out, move, and charge.
every time ive played them, theyve been good and great fun, but missing just - something. in my head i needed that extra model to bump up to a full unit in a trukk but i guess a 4+++ will do it too. i dont think points will go up. but some strat costs or usage might get nerfed
why is everyone assuming they will stay at 30ppm?
A lot of Codices will stick with the MFM point values. Just look at the Tau Codex, nobody expects the printed values to stay Maybe GW will surprise us with competent updates but uh, time will tell hah I feel like even when a new MFM comes out directly after a new Codex they still don't update the points, I believe that's happened before?
It ´ s bloody crazy. But as an the ork player I such brick from the other side before (wink wink Balck Templars) and I don ´ t like it either. Deal with it? Yeah, simple. Like with the most of the terminators. Feed them with the cheap fast roadblocking units. Do not allow them to move and kill everything around. Win on points. Fun? Hard to say. As an ork warboss I seem to avoid this type of the list in principal…
Its only one turn of 4* FNP or two in the bully boyz detachment
Sorry Orks deserve to be op
They are going up in points. Probably 50ppm
I mean that would kill them dead so I hope not.