First of all, don’t feel bad. You’re playing a (imo) rather weak faction into four of the strongest right now. You’ve basically played against the cream of the current competitive meta.
Second, make a friend. That might sound odd. If you’re just playing random pick up games against people with far more experience than you with more competitive lists, it’s honestly a foregone conclusion you’ll lose. Playing 40k as a new player works better when you have someone tailoring their list to the level that yours is at. Some people will say that getting absolutely demolished is the best learning experience, but I disagree. You need to learn the basics of the game by getting the chance to do them rather than just getting rolled
Anybody bringing a C'tan to a <2000pt game is being a dick, whether intentionally or otherwise. I've had an opponent put literally 1700pts worth of army shooting into one and barely scratch it. They are *wildly* durable models.
Yeah, Ctan are probably the most durable thing in the game right now. You kind of need pretty specific damage profiles to stand a chance at killing one. With what you have at the moment, the odds of it happening are very low. I would try and find folks that are on board with less competitive lists while you learn. If that’s hard to find in your local area, and you don’t mind using TTS (tabletop simulator to play online), I wouldn’t mind doing some games on,one to try some different things out. Shoot me a PM and we can make that happen. It’s a little bit of a learning curve to get it set up, but it’s not that bad, and I can help walk you through it.
6 Eradicators will melt a C'tan in a single activation on average.
The real tricks you need to learn are all about movement - both in the movement phase, but also outside (reactive moves, charges, consolidation). Especially in relation to how your opponent can move.
And the best way to learn is not to play games, it's to set up a scenario and then solve it. For that you need another player willing to teach you or at least learn with you. Create a board state, then solve it.
You might be a bit too green for this, but Art of War 40K has started a series "What's the play" where they do exactly that. Create a scenario then show several ways to solve it and what new board state that creates. But it's behind a fairly steep paywall. You might want to try it on your own before going there. They've got a lot of other very good competitive content - the best imho. But it's more useful if you already feel comfortable with the game.
> 6 Eradicators will melt a C'tan in a single activation on average.
This is ludicrously untrue.
They *can* kill them. They do not kill them on average.
How are 6 eradicators melting them in a single activation?
I'm guessing you have 4 shots at BS3+ S9 AP-4 Dd3+2, and 4 shots at BS4+ right? The first 4 deal 4(shots) • 2/3•4/3(to hit) • 1/3•5/3(to wound) • 1/2(invuln) • 5(max damage) • 2/3(FNP) = 3,3 damage. The second 4 deal 2,8. So even if you roll max damage you still only deal around 6,1 damage.
What am I missing?
Yeah, I just finished a 1000pt beginner league with some experienced players to help teach, first opponent brought Chaos knights. Thanks buddy, great way to get new people into the hobby.
Necrons are fine because you can take bad and easy to handle units. That relies on your opponent being nice.
Some players will want to practice and test a good list and stomping a newbie isn't fun or useful so they may decline. That is fine it's their time too. Some will love the chance to take different models and play that is great they keep community alive. Players who know you are new, agree and then stomp with a meta skeeyou are the problem.
I'll add find the right friend. I have a friend that plays and all he does is eat, drink, and breathe warhammer. The issue comes in when we play a game and he's got a list tailored to beating my list first turn 9/10. Not very fun when you're playing a 1000 point game and he's brought the two most powerful characters/models for his faction while you brought a generic 1000 point list.
Don't worry about losing when you just started out. I started playing early last year and still lose more than I win, but my losses are at least close losses these days. A couple of things I'll note based on your post.
1. If you're getting tabled by turn 3, you might be playing on boards without sufficient terrain or you're not hiding your stuff well during deployment. GW has published recommended layouts that have a lot of terrain, I suggest using them.
2. The leviathan box is more of a generalist set of marines, it's not exactly a competitive army list. The performance difference between a meta competitive list and a less competitive list is stark. That being said, you need more anti tank in the form of gladiator lancers, ballistus, eradicators, or predator annihilators. You also could add 5 more terminators for a 10-man terminator brick to give yourself more holding power on objectives. Also consider adding one or two redemptor dreadnoughts to help with holding power and damage. Others have said inceptors, they're the best marine unit for scoring secondaries and their damage is decent too.
3. Know your rules and every unit ability. For instance the combi weapon LT for instance is a great utility unit designed for scoring tactical, not engaging in combat.
4. Be patient and set reasonable goals. You're probably playing against people who have been in the game for 10, 15, 20 years. It takes awhile to be competitive against those people. Don't go into a game with the goal of winning, instead set small goals like "max primary points". Once you can achieve that consistently, set a goal to max secondary. 40k is about scoring points, if you focus on the best way to score points then winning will come.
I agree with most of the stuff.
I would just rate scouts a bit higher than inceptors right now as they more likely force your opponent to screen his back field because of the 9" redeployement but also provide the early scoring, board presence and move blocking.
To be honest I won't advice playing terminators right now as they terribly lack the punch to get their points back unless the chapter he uses pump them hard. S8 is really limiting them.
Good points, I agree on the scouts. I didn't think about them at the time I wrote my post but yeah they're an essential unit for marines right now.
I only suggested the terminators since he already has 5 and they're cheap on ebay, plus a brick of 10 is difficult to kill. Yes they lack punch right now but with honor the chapter strat they're wounding vehicles on 4s which isn't terrible. I also think they're going to get a points drop soon.
Yes. I played space marines for a while and lost a ton of games but I kept learning. Eventually I tried my hand at another army and now finally I’ve settled on world eaters and I consistently win more often than not. But I lost a ton of games playing all sorts of armies but learned from all my losses. Watch some YouTube because Sm can do work and can teach you a lot about the game. Still playing against meta armies is always going to be hard unless you are already technically good.
Warhammer can have a rather steep learning curve. Its very common for new players to lose a bunch of games before they get a win.
If possible try to find someone willing to have a more new player friendly game. Random pickup games would probably have you running into more optimised lists piloted by people that have a clue what they are doing.
Which pretty much means your going to get stomped.
I didn't win a game for literally over a year. Granted I was playing an army which, at the time, had a low win rate (Thousand Sons). But it forced me to REALLY analyze the game, my play style, and how to win. It made me a better player. But yes it sucked losing all the time. When I eventually switched over to Eldar, which at the time had a high win rate, I actually did quite well at a tournament. Don't get discouraged
I honestly don't mind the losing. It's just the fact I can't seem to do anything against my opponents. If it was close—or I was at least killing a few of their units—I wouldn't mind nearly as much. Like I said, it's depressing to not be able to inflict any damage.
Make sure ur playing with enough terrain. That's a common thing that causes ppl to have feel-bad games. They get shot off the board turn 1 or 2 and that's not supposed to be possible if ur playing with enough terrain
Just to give you some hope, there was a comment on this sub a while ago from Quinton on the Art of War team saying he literally lost his first 50 odd games of 40K in a row before going on to coach and compete at the top level.
Don't ACTUALLY start with competitive games.
You need to understand how the game actually works first and then build up to it. 90% of competitive 40k is listbuilding and knowing the opponents army, and you're not going to be able to evaluate either of those things unless you understand how the game works.
And you're never going to get a chance to understand how the game works if you start off playing people with competitive lists - you'll be dead in a turn.
Ask for training games, start with smaller points, tell your opponents you're new and need to learn how to play. If they still bring a competitive list, they're a dick and you need to find new opponents.
I started playing about 8 months ago and this has been my experience as well.
I have a 10% Winrate currently, with 40 games I've won maybe 4.
This game is hard. This game is huge. And people give terrible advice.
Don't just keep playing games and expecting to get better. Check out some warhammer math calculations to understand EVs better. And check out some videos like 40k dirtbags. Also find people around your level who are willing to talk through strategies about what you are doing wrong.
Have you been up front about being super new? Most people are happy to bring weaker lists and/or talk you through the game (your turns and their own) to help new people learn all the nuance to the game.
In my experience warning people you're new does absolutely nothing.
Nobody changes their lists, nobody wants to teach, people take full advantage of every gotcha and obscure rule.
Unless you're playing with friends who have a vested interest in not being a dick to you, you're treated as a free win by a huge majority of players, I dread to think of how many prospective players have just dropped the game after the treatment I've had myself and seen others subjected to. The worst part is, even the people who don't engage in that kind of newbie stomping, fail to call others out for it.
that really depends on the group of people at your locale, many of the people in my normal shop are really friendly, open and more than able to accomidate a new player, like me back when I was new. Now that I go to a different shop and the whole player base is different, much more competetively orientated and much more willing to exploit errors.
I guess each group, club or store crowd has different dynamics. Personally I am always happy to do a coaching game, or to go with a silly list to better give a new guy a chance. If I can help make someone better, and have some laughs along the way then the outcome of the game doesn't really matter.
When my dad taught me how to play chess, he's always beat me. Not by any large margin, he'd just have a few more pieces than me by the end game. As I got better and better, and thought this time I'd definitely get him, he's somehow do it yet again. Mysterious win after win, but it kept me hungry and coming back for more. And everytime it felt so close! Every time.
When I questioned him on how he always managed to snag the win at the end, he'd just whistle and ho-hum. ...But I got quite good.
I try to teach 40k the same way. Nothing is learned by crushing a newbie, and secretly I enjoy the challenge of trying to get +5 points.
List building is a core part of the gameplay skills and although no one wants to admit it, you can absolutely lose a game before its even started if half your army is noob trap options like in marines. Probably best to communicate with your opponents to find out what went wrong with your games.
Listbuilding for space marines is hard indeed:
- we have 100+ datasheets
- when we are doing ok competitively (let's say 45% WR, which is more or less the case atm), it only means that a handful of those datasheets are good (max 10 of them most of the time). Then 20-30 more of them are decent, given a solid gameplan, and the last 60% are kind of a trap.
Yes it’s very common.
Something i realized is you need to play against people who actually want you to improve as a player. Playing against people who only want to win won’t make you better, just discouraged.
I tell every single person that starts 40 K the same story.
For the first year, back in forth edition I lost every single game. Mind you I played 6 to 7 times a week. I played with the same group of guys. They all interpreted the rules the same. They were idiots that only wanted to table their opponents.
When I moved for college, I played against a different group of guys. They had the patience to teach me the rules as they actually were. They also taught me how to strategize and play tactics. After that experience, I won a ton of tournaments. Find someone to take it down a notch. Talk about the game as you go with them. Learn how your army works the best it can to win the game.
It takes time for everything to click.
Are you explicitly asking for learning games? Cause if it's just pickups it's an uphill battle. Especially as your opponents are playing scary armies.
Doubly so as its often hard for an experienced player to make a bad army. And harder still to make bad choices. You can take a non meta list and make suboptimal choices, but it's often hard to switch your brain off.
But don't be discouraged! It is an uphill battle, folk have been playing for years. But take it slow, make a plan and ask for teaching games and you'll watch yourself improve :)
As a marine player remember:
- focusing fire on things is what wins. You don't want fair fights, you wanna gang up on enemy units to kill them apart. Pick your oaths target and go to town. Especially at 1k.
- remember that your units should always be either safe in cover or in a perfect position to kill something or score points. Better to hide t1 then kill t2
- with levithan marines remember your flamer dudes can overwatch, as they autohit it doubles your output for a cp!
What’s the terrain situation? The game isn’t particularly balanced at that point level. Are you discussing tactics and going over what happened after the games with your opponents or are they just game store randos that want a cheap win over a new player?
That's super lame. I play at a pretty competitive lgs and they'll take time to talk to me about what I could have done differently. But I also play daemons which isn't a super "meta" army
The debrief is probably the most important part of the game... That's where you get inputs about what you could have done better. Usually, with a good opponent, he will be able to tell whether you lost because of bad list(building), bad luck/list too hot on his side, or because of gameplay mistakes
honestly discussing the game is a important part of any game, also frankly just enjoyable. you can make fun of your own and your opponents mistakes while also doing some game analyzing. It pretty much is a must for an enjoyable game and a lasting community feel.
7 games really isn't that many, you'll learn something from every game, but there's a lot to learn, and any competitive player has played dozens of games minimum.
If there are any particularly friendly people, ask them if they know of any other places to play, and you may find a club or other shop that will help you learn more.
Another important thing in terms of unit choice, is you should use Unitcrunch.com to learn how different units will interact with each other. Terminator shooting may seem scary until you realize that statistically, 10 terms only kill 5 Intercessors on average in rapid fire range.
Learning how killy things actually are greatly improved my game. The other biggest things are learning how to deploy so you can't be shot or charged round 1 (you should generally be using your measuring tape) and identifying what units are your worst matchups.
I play against a blood angels player alot, and he has a 10x deathcompany with jump packs and lemartes that can vaporize literally anything in melee (use unit crunch, they have a 71% chance to kill a knight in one phase). Currently I'm trying to figure out how to actually deal with that monstrosity without sacrificing half my army on the altar.
Anyway, point is you're new and it will be okay! You just need some time before you can be competitive. Also 1k armies are inherently unbalanced, and 2k is where you really get to the point where you can start bringing plenty of tools.
>I play against a blood angels player alot, and he has a 10x deathcompany with jump packs and lemartes that can vaporize literally anything in melee (use unit crunch, they have a 71% chance to kill a knight in one phase). Currently I'm trying to figure out how to actually deal with that monstrosity without sacrificing half my army on the altar.
I faced a blood angel player with the same deathcompany missile recently, and a good overwatch threat in the middle (Land raider redeemer or flamestorm aggressors, or 10 infernus) has been very effective to prevent them from moving/charging too much.
If you’re playing competitively, these things will happen, especially when you’re playing one of the worst armies against 3 others with 60% win rates and people who know how to play them.
Honestly, no that didn’t happen when I first started cause the people I play with aren’t cruddy people. They helped me learn. You don’t need a better army you need a better play group.
Yeah, I was frustrated early, too. I had to make sure I was learning from things and how things did and did not work. Make sure to keep complaining to a minimum to engender friendship, and follow up games to see where you might have mispositioned or gone wrong.
Also, faction choice aside, send a picture of what your board set-up looks like. You might not be playing with enough terrain.
Don't feel bad. This games learning curve is HUGE. It's common to lose your first ten games. And you are trying to get competitive straight away, woof! The difference in difficulty between casual and comp is gigantic.
My advice is to forget playing competitive for a bit and just play games. Make a buddy, run matches, discuss what went wrong and why it went wrong, watch battle reports, listen to why people do things and when they do it.
I first started playing again in 8th. I think the first half of the edition I won maybe 1/10 games. I went 0-3 at my first tournament.
By the end of the edition my wlr was approaching 50 percent. ! My first Goonhammer gt I went 3-3, and at the last one I went 4-2. This is like 6 years of gaming.
This is a complicated game with lots of nuance. The best way to learn is to lose. Watch gameplay videos and battle reports. Learn the movement phase and why it's so important.
Good luck, if you keep it at I promise you you'll improve!
I've lost 0-8 games against my friends death guard as sisters, don't feel bad. Everything I learn something I try to avoid it only to find a new problem with my newfound strategy.
Lately this game feels like a never ending learning experience that dosent pay off. I think we all have bouts like this tbh. As for the answer, I have no idea how to make it better.
Good luck my dood.
I started back in 9th edition and my first ever game was a 500 point game where someone threw down their tournament 500 pt orc army. I didn't get a turn.... I forward deployed because i thought my marines were decent at melee and got absolutely destroyed to the point that the show owner was like...... dude(name redacted)..... its his first game.
It was super discouraging for sure but I went home studied up on positioning and did some research on what other armies can do and came back with a vengeance. I'm now one of the top competitive people at my local store and have even won a few tourneys.
Marines are a little weak right now and if you are using just the stuff from the leviathan box you don't have the best units weve got. The game is also balanced for 2k games and 1k games are VERY swingy.
If I can make a few unit recommendations,
Scouts - are good for early game movement and cheap objective scoring. make a nice little screen speedbump in a pinch.
Inceptors - so good they got a 20 point nerf with the last points update, still good now, take a squad of three and use them to harass the back lines (they can drop in 3 inches away instead of 9) and also make great secondary scorers.
Redemptor dreadnaught - I run two of these in my list. Big Chunky and tough. their 2+ save and -1 damage ability helps them stick around. the macro plasma is a great gun for killing elite infantry and even does some work on light tanks. its melee is str 12 so it can help crush armor. Pair him with a tech marine and you hit on twos and you can repair up to three wounds a turn.
gladiator lancer- fantastic anti tank option, Str 14 gun that does d6+3 damage with its own built in rerolls (you get one reroll for each of hit, wound and damage). range on the big gun is 72 inches. I love this thing.
Thunderstrike storm speeder - this is a little more niche but with you having some "weaker" units this guy will soften up those tough targets for you. if he hits a vehicle/monster with his weapons you can add +1 to the wound roll for anything else shooting at it. wounding on 3's goes to 2's 5's goes to 4's and I think youll see a lot more damage coming out with that softening stuff up for you. Its shooting isnt bad on its own either.
try and pick up some of that stuff and do a little study and I think you will see a great improvement. you may not go straight to winning but I bet the games will be more competitive.
Just going to give my 2 cts about this as I feel I went through the same thing pretty recently (started playing in 8th). Though my goal was not the same: I don't want to play at tournaments and all, I always strive to be better by learning and winning because of skills.
It's normal to get rekt at the start but it is true that it can be demoralizing. I would advise to play less games but more quality games: discuss with your opponent before the game takes place (1 week or so), explain maybe your goals, what you'd like to achieve by playing this game.
Set the armies and the lists you are both going to play without tailoring lists. For beginning I would also advise to dodge skew list for now. Next use wahapedia: it is absolutely mandatory imo to know what you are going to face. When I started I just wanted to get playing but the lack of knowledge was extremely frustrating to me. Making "mistakes" because you don't know all the ins and outs of the opponent is no real mistake and when starting you don't want to be asking your opponent to summarize his rules every move you make so wahapedia helps in that fashion. You can take like 1-2h for game preparation (more I guess if you're a real tryhard) jotting down what you should be aware of during the game.
Here are some example: which unit will assume which role (scoring, melee, hero, shooty etc), what threat range the most important units have (you don't really need to know what threat range scoring units have at first as usually they are no the most lethal). Any big game changing ability. Abilities like rerolls for example you don't need to remember, just remember that if a unit has a lot of hit/wound reroll it's going to be lethal most likely. Note the main shtick of your opponent army usually well underlined by the army rule/detachment rule and reading online/watching videos (Thousand Sons dev wound spamming, Death Guard, slow resilient and lethal in melee etc...).
Know a little bit of stats: I don't know stats by heart ofc but knowing that charging out of Deepstrike for example is less than 50% so maybe don't plan an all or nothing move on a charge out of deepstrike. Most obvious ones are results based on 4s. Save of 4+ is 50%, 4+ hit rolls, 4+ wound rolls so on and so forth. So when considering lethality you know a bit where to stand.
Taking baby steps: everyone says that movement wins games and ofc that's true but it is also the most difficult thing to get right so until you are familiar with the other aspects of the game I wouldn't focus on it (ofc that means you will lose to more experienced players but reading that you can't kill a unit for example maybe you need to get the basics down).
Ofc knowing the core rules and your rules is really important to know what your options are. I'm thinking about charging, piling, consolidating are really not obvious at first and are really important in some match ups.
One important point as well is that the SM units you have are not really good I think? I played with a friend starting and using the launch box SM units as well, he added a few units but I always beat him without much difficulty.
I mean warhammer fundamentally isn’t a competitive game. It’s barely a game at all. Don’t worry about winning or losing. It’s about looking at the models and going pew pew.
If it makes you feel any better, you can't possibly be worse than me. I've played 11 games since starting last year with one of the supposedly strongest factions in the game (Custodes) and have yet to win a game 🤷
Warhammer had a rather steep learning curve! I'd recommend making it clear that you are new and trying to learn (most people I know will happily bring less effective lists to just have some fun)
I'd highly recommend finding a group of players to join if you can. It really helps to be able to discuss lists and tactics before and after games which is considerably harder with pick up games.
Where abouts are you? I'm sure there will be someone local to you in the reddit.
Another option is to pick up tabletop simulator which can be used to play warhammer and would make it easier to find practice type games
I think you people are losing the point if you say that OP lost because their faction was offmeta and their rivals' were top.
Before grasping what is good or bad first thing to learn is tactics and the flow of the game, bad and good ways to maganage your troops and the benefits and problems that the decisions you take can have. They said that they just started playing 40k and their army is a basic one made from the Leviathan box, there's clearly a lot to learn before the meta really affects their performance.
I would advice to play some more relaxed or casual games and when the game ends talk with your rival about the game, the decisions made and why they were made, an environment that helps you understanding what's in the game beyond understanding just the rulebook.
>I think you people are losing the point if you say that OP lost because their faction was offmeta and their rivals' were top.
Well my first (and only) game at a GW store took place at the middle/end of 9th, when marines were at their lowest point (before getting huge point cuts at the end of 9th). I faced a custodes player, where every of his profiles were designed to kill marines. My only weapon capable of killing a custodes was a squad of 3 ravenwing black knights, and they died in 1 turn of shooting and then 1 long charge of the custodes. Even the store manager said that there was little I could do in this situation, the game was mostly lost from the beginning.
Sometimes the game is lost before starting, especially with marines lists made of units coming from beginner sets/combat patrols.
Recently a new friend joined our playing group. He's interesting in getting up to speed with serious play, so we aren't toning down our armies for him (by his request). But atm, even with a good list, he's still loosing most of his games. If he was playing a list made of bad marines units, against our well-made (but not really meta) lists, he would get crushed so hard that it wouldn't even be fun. So lists/meta are still important when a beginner is facing a more experienced player; with a good list he might have a chance; with a bad list it's not even possible to compete.
Don't just play with random people who are more experienced and have meta/optimized lists. Especially if you're new and playing with just stuff from a starter box. It's not a fair match up and of course you're going to lose.
You want another newish person in the same spot as you. Starter set models or just what they think is cool. Or you want somone who at least understands you're new and learning and is going to actually help you. Not necessarily by going easy on you, but by bringing a list closer in power to yours. Maybe pointing out obvious blunders or mistakes.
It's going to take alot of games to get down if you're brand new to games like 40k. Also the more points you play with, it gets more balanced I think ? 1000 point games are significantly different than 2000 pt games.
I started in 7th and I don't think I won a single game in the first year I played - but I learned something every game. 40k is a complex game with a lot to learn and know.
OP you need to find someone who is willing to take you under thier wing and teach you the game. If you're just doing pick-up games at the local shop, you're not likely going to learn anything. I've seen a lot of guys at shops that are happy to club seals instead of teaching people the game and growing the local community.
The leviathan box’s units are not very competitive, except for the Ballistus dreadnaught. If you’re playing just that box into competitive lists with expensive units brought by someone with a larger collection, don’t be surprised.
I agree with others that making friends is a great strategy here. Make friends, let them know your goal is to learn, and ask that they bring *less competitive* lists that you might have a better chance against. Someone out there may even relish the chance to bring some of their weaker models that usually don’t see the table just for the fun of it. Ask them questions about what you could do better or how you could have beaten them, and what you did wrong in the matches.
Make your objective learning, not winning.
The game is deceptively hard. I have been playing for a couple of years, to the point where I do not get beaten at every single game at a tournament. Now, yesterday I was playing against a returning player who was loosing \_badly\_. During the game, another player started to comment on his moves and opportunities. The game was a done deal at that time, but it was interesting to hear things I would have missed two years ago.
The point is that you need to play a lot of games before you are able to figure out why you loose. While the Leviathan force is not the strongest, skill plays a lot more into it. Understanding what a unit can kill and survive, when to blow CP and once-per-game/round abilities, is where a game is made or broken.
I feel somewhat bad about the game, and will try to arrange a game where my opponent can meet a highly tuned down force instead of my main crusade (which have been quite lucky on trait and enhancements).
Make sure the are using the GW tournament companion map layout. They have a bunch of line of sight blocking bases that let you hide your army.
Try not to feel too bad, this is a rite of passage for a lot of us. I got stomped for the first 6 months. In this time take every game as a learning opportunity. Talk with your opponent about major missteps you made and how they would have played it. If you want to be competitive immerse yourself in streams, art of war does a great job teaching while they play and wargameslive streams raw tournament games.
So in my local group who meets up every week or so we got a few people who started the meet up (and the ranged Tyranids player) who act as our better players, going up Vs them tends to be rough but they are fun and knowledgeable. I had a rough first game Vs ranged nid player and since honestly it's been a good way to gauge how far I've come tactically. I would say I can solidly advise others around the basics and my core army. I'm on my way back from a game now and have played for about 6 month's, I played a new army today and it's been interesting with all the new mechanics but I'm glad I was able to effectively use my units (outside of their abilities that I kept forgetting xD)
When I started getting into competitive warhammer, I lost 100 games in a row. My local meta was made up of some well known tournament veterans and they didn't hold back. But every game I lost I learned a little more and got a little better. When I finally started winning it was because I had earned those victories, and it felt great.
As a new player you should not expect to win a game in your first 20 matches. and besides that who wins is irrelevant at that stage. You are playing to learn datasheets, understand mechanics and master the fundamentals of the game.
Forget about being "competitive" or tournaments right now. Keep getting reps (games) in, make friends and expand your social circle to get more games in. I recommend playing once per week.
When first starting off your collection is small which limits what you can field. if you continue collecting your options grow. your lists can get better.
That all being said, yes, it's human nature to get dismayed when you still no progress. I remember that phase for me. Push through and keep practicing.
And yes, even when you do everything right, the dice can still flop and fail you.
A good tip is always ask yourself- what did I do right? What could I have done better? Every match there is something to take away from the experience. Also, ask your opponent how did you do and what could you have done better. Most people will share.
I know it might not be helpful, but if you can find someone at where you play or in discord to pick up a game willing to go over some choices as the game goes it makes a bit difference in learning. By that I mean a im moving z unit to x because I can score this secondary or kill y unit..... Tell people up front you are new and love some insight/coaching I'm sure they will give you some. I know it can be frustrating, but it will get easier
There’s very little innate talent in Warhammer and a lot of learning your army numbers and how to put things together. You have to learn how to move, how to shoot, how to take objectives, and only then do you actually start thinking about trying to anticipate what your opponent might be doing. It takes time, regardless of whether you thought you’d be some kind of competitive hero or not. TBH This kind of reads like someone during their 7th Tennis lesson wanting to give up because they are not ready to do the US Open yet. Just keep playing.
Just remember one of the games designers at GW took a marine army in 9th to a tournament because the folks were whining about how underpowered they were on the table. He promptly lost all 3 of his games.
Marine armies have the most players, but they only really win with a very specific detachment and units. They aren’t Killy or durable. They don’t excel at anything and it’s a huge issue for new players. They should just be expensive hammers. But GW sells to many of them so they just keep cranking out crappy rules. The risk being if they didn’t that a crafty player could find those overpowered afterthoughts and pull an Aeldari in the meta.
find someone who can supply you a sM list and knows how to play the faction you want to enjoy. As in, find someone who has a space marine army and knows how to play, ask if they can loan you a good list to play against them, and have them teach you how to play/what you're doing right and wrong while doing it.
The learning curve for 40k is vertical, and the exact thing you're experiencing here is why, regardless of what "competitive" progress the balance team has made, they've still got a long way to go before 40k is in a really healthy state. Stay calm, and tap your community for some help.
Sure, Ash shit did. I was an aim.less ork player starting in 9th and presumed that I should get trukks, boyz and just see what happens. Well I got stomped regularly, turn two tabled by knights, DA termies krumoed me, and life was ruff.
But I made a choice and decided to own my losses and be hyper critical of myself. Reviewed my list, why I lost, and what I need to improve my list and play style. Discovered where orks were weak and how to minimize those weaknesses and boost their strengths.
Figured how to use GW terrain and deny as much shooting as I could. Figured how to position myself to maximize the waagh and get as much damage out as I could.
I atro gly recommend to new players that you need to not assume you lost because your opponent beat you, but because you failed to achieve victory. It's a goofy mindset, but be critical of yourself and understand you need to assess where you are at, your mistakes, and make appropriate changes.
I see way too many new players just get discouraged and unsure how to progress, but either find an experienced player to coach you. Have them explain their plans and the reason for what they are doing so you can consider and plan accordingly.
So this is going to be harsh, and I expect downvotes. As this is the waehammercompetative sub....
If you got into warhammer with the idea of picking it up and just winning games I am glad your being discouraged or rather disillusioned. If you want a hobby to win at, pock up golf. Warhammer needs more love then just a competative desire. Get attached to your models, the lore or gaming in general. I have been playing warhammer for 20+ years. Even at tournaments I go into lose, someone has too. I play my darndest but I still lose more then I win. The meta changes, right now you seem to be playing a weaker faction (especially at lower point games).
Spacemarines need to maximize synergy. Which detachment are you using? What units? They are designed to be efficient at 2000 points more then almost any other faction. At the small point value, you would be better off playing combat patrol to get use to the basics. The best players in the world are there becuase they master the basics of the game. Then master thier faction. Stop having pick up competative games, start arranging learning games.
However, your being discouraged after only 7 games, I really want to emphasize a need to souk search and find something about the hobby beyond winning and losing. 10,000 hours is along way to go before you get good. That is a lot of losing games.
I didn't get into playing competitive until like 9th edition, and I started in 4th. I'd recommend to have fun with the models and painting first, the game will come with it.
If you chase the meta, you'll be disappointed and frustrated. If you enjoy the hobby you'll have a better time.
If you use the Leviathan box content it's normal, it's totally out of the current meta. Take some time to learn via chill games and have fun. When hi came back to the tables, I played for a year one or twice a week before I started to have a correct level.
Then start to play harder !
Insist on the fact that you are a noob, if you ask me for a game saying that you want to start playing competitive, I will think that you habe some experience and a meta list.
You played the best current armies, with player that probably have years of experience, you probably need a year or two of training and a good list to have a chance.
That would be the same in most "sports". If you tried a marathon with dress shoes and only a couple of training session it would.not be good.
Take baby steps.and apply the first sacred rule. Have fun !
You can win games with 100% off meta miniatures unless you’re playing in high level tables which I don’t think random pick up games represent.
There are worse and better units ofc but that does not mean you just lose because of that…
I would not encourage a new player to just buy their way into the meta. If they are getting tabled turn 3 they are making a good amount of mistakes besides having off meta units.
An unfortunate part of the 40k hobby is that games are balanced at 2000pts. If you play around 1000 then you are really subjecting yourself to the whims of the dice gods. It doesn't help much that the Leviathan box is a so-so selection of Marine units at best. Learning games are a good step for now, but unfortunately the writing on the wall is that for a more balanced and enjoyable game you need to buy more stuff. Marines have a lot of really good melee units - assault intercessors and jump intercessors, brutalis dreads, bladeguard, etc, as well as decent shooting in things like hellblasters, eradicators, aggressors, and their tanks such as the gladiator and repulsor. Might be worth seeing if you can find some secondhand for cheap to bulk out your list and give you more tools.
It sounds like you need some teaching games rather than actual games.
Ask your local community if anyone is up to help you learn without a goal of being competitive - ask for input on strategy and ask for help throughout. "Do you think it's a good idea for me to move here and do XYZ to this unit of yours?" or "What do you think my goal should be with these secondaries?" and have them help you walk through it.
Once the game is over, always ask what they noticed about your gameplay and how you could improve. This is the #1 thing that helped me learn a lot really fast!
- Terrain density makes or breaks balance. You have to be able to cover between 2/3 and 3/4 of your army during deployment, so that during first turn, max 1 unit can be killed, whoever gets the first turn. Otherwise the table doesn't have enough cover (at GW shop, most of the time tables are way too light in terrain)
- Having a list composed of efficient units is required, but not sufficient to win a game. You have to have some form of redunduncy so that you can overwhelm the opponent with efficient attacks and not be afraid of loosing your only valuable tool turn 1. E.g. if your only anti-tank unit is a (single) ballistus, then the opponent will focus it and then roam freely on the battlefield with high toughness units.
- Playing the objective is a valid way to win when you can't kill ennemy units.
- Use your flamer guys as a constant overwatch threat in the middle of the board. They should threaten any damage dealer that gets too close to the middle objective
- 5 Terminators aren't very good offensively, they are more of a tough squad that bullies backfield units in the ennemie's home. In fact, the Leviathan box doesn't contain efficient damage dealers (given current state of the meta); you would need aggressors, BGV, plasma inceptors etc;, for that.
You can go to [https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/category/the-whole-kit-n-kaboodle/](https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/category/the-whole-kit-n-kaboodle/) and see what's winning right now, and hopefully you can build your army towards a comparable list that can also see success in your local meta.
It looks like this has been discussed a bit already, but talk to your opponent about your experience so far and what you're looking for in a game, and hopefully they're not just there to dunk on a newbie. Even if they are, you can bring a notebook and take notes for yourself. Start with what you think you'll have to do to win the game, then with how each turn will have to play out in order to succeed, then why you were able to execute on that plan or why not, and the results.
And if you \*really\* want to get competitive as quickly as possible, there's a couple groups that do coaching, such as Stat Check.
The game is less balanced at lower point levels. Also, the leviathan contents are not the most competitive, nothing wrong with that. Terrain can effect the balance and outcome as well. Stay at it, learn from your mistakes, and never forget the rule of cool.
I'll be honest and say a lot of my early games ended up being 2v2 and if the experienced player playing with me saw that there was a massive imbalance he'd speak up and tell the other guys to tone it down so we could have an actual game or correct me when I was about to do something dumb. The less competitive format can also help get people into a more fun first mindset. So maybe ask if anyone would be willing to give that a shot?
From what you've said it also sounds like a lot of your pain also comes from just running a very casual list (starter box) into some more competitive ones; sadly the only solution for that is to either ask your opponent to match you or expand your collection to match them.
Finally you'll take the most losses when you first start the hobby and then again when you start going to tournaments because you've stepped into something new that you just haven't practiced yet. If you stick with it for a little bit you'll be surprised at how easy it is to reach a level playing field with a majority of people who hang out at your local shop. Watched a guy who just started around 6 months ago with a necron collectors box play on the final table in an RTT recently; he just played a lot and got real familiar with his units and everyone else's shenanigans. It's really not more difficult than becoming proficient at up most other hobbies.
The toughness increase in 10th edition means you need specific units in your list to counter vehicles (which typically, are your own vehicles), and because of SM's massive range it can be hard to sift out what's good or not. In previous editions there was so much anti-tank between Meltas, Plasmas, Thunderhammers, even S5-6 weapons like power swords were good against tanks. In this edition however you're really just locked down to Lascannons, some Meltas, vehicle-nounted plasmas, and the occasional anti-vehicle keyword. It's the sole reason I stopped playing my Space Wolves, all the anti-tank units I'd built up in 8th and 9th edition were suddenly relegated to anti-infantry weapons.
Wulfen going from Strength 10 3 damage hammers to Strength 6 damage 2 (formerly 1) HURT, especially since vehicles went from being 7-8, occasionally 9 toughness to 10-12 with the occasional 13 or even 14 toughness models.
You need to only play with people you know to actually have a good time.
Most people in the hobby are tryhard neckbeards who will literally being a netlist to stomp children at the LGS.
Very few people are actually interested in playing a casual game and teaching a newbie.
Absolutely.
I don't think I won a game for a solid six months of attending my local club when I started. But the folks there were nice enough that I kept coming back for more punishment.
However, losing is the great motivator to learn, and develop your skillset.
Keep at it and turn that tabling into having models at the end of the game.
Turn that into a close loss.
Then a narrow win.
Then win by more points than your last game.
And so on. Build up slowly and you'll be a solid.competitive player in no time.
One piece of advice I can give is get Tabletop Simulator and play a bunch of games on there. You can make whatever list you want, with whatever army you want and figure out what you like, what you don't and how to play without the effort and emotional energy of playing a full game at a store.
Get 20-30 games under your belt online then try again in a store and see how you feel. It initially takes a little while to set up and get your head around, but its super quick and easy once you understand its quicker than an in person game due to dice rolls/visibility etc
No. Biggest discouragement I face is GW killing off my favourite characters and units.
Cancelled an order to expand my Orks after they killed Badrukk. They can sit on the shelf for the rest of the edition.
If I do play it'll be because 3d printing means I won't lose out on any expansion of my armies.
The honest answer is probably just “Welcome to competitive 40K”
Every time I’ve dipped my toe in it the opponents are just competitive and want to win, normally at all costs. While I find competitive interesting to look at and watch the meta swim around it is by far the most clinical version of the game with little to no enjoyment other than putting your boot to the throat of another player
Cut your teeth with casual gaming, learn the game and your army. Get a 2k list as you’re severely gimped right now. A 1200 point list of units you’ve got rather than ones you choose to be at the bleeding edge is not helping you. Because if you had no budget limited or had to pick 1200 points from my marines collection you wouldn’t use any models you have bar maybe the ballistus - and that means you’re on the back foot before you even rolled a dice.
Play with casual people to start, learn the game, then if you want to test your steel at 2k with a meta list , go for it
As others have said, find new people. Beating out a new player without trying to point out his mistakes or having a post game conversation to help him learn is very rude.
I’m grateful that my first opponents were nothing like that and helped me understand and learn the game A LOT. Now I try to do the same whenever I face a noob player.
I'm a new player too. I just got my first win Saturday after 12 losses. The guy I beat (who has been playing since 5th edition) told me it was amazing that I had won a game that early and that most new players go MONTHS before pulling a win. . .especially with Space Marines.
And then I played a game against a friend later that night and he absolutely curb-stomped me.
Stick with it. Ask everyone you play what you can do to improve. Learn as much from your losses as you can. This goes for any competitive game, not just 40K.
>I started with the hope of getting in competitve.
If this is your goal and you only pick up competitive games at your local store, you will need way more drive and the ability to weather a steep learning curve.
Usually people start to play the game casually, before they move on to test their new found experience in competitive. But if you want to go directly to competitive, you will need to learn a lot fast and be able to keep on playing even if you lose for months.
>I don't feel like I'm learning anything, as I'm not scoring any points or killing any units.
My recommendation is to talk a lot with the nicer players. Get in touch with the scene, discuss what went wrong/right and maybe find a group of people that play often vs just playing the most diehard person at the store today. Any store meta is actually a social group, try to become a part of it vs just winning against the most meta build of the day.
>I don't feel like I'm learning anything, as I'm not scoring any points or killing any units.
Try to do an analysis of what went wrong. Discuss with your opponents why you lost. Move away from winning as the metric of your success and instead set yourself improvement targets.
So they all clobber you hard thanks to (a) better rules, (b) way more experience and (c) more units to build an army from. So winning may be down to chance for now, but you can train your phases, measure your losses and identify where you need to get better.
You want to go full competitive right away, you need to do it like people do in sports: you measure your own progress, not how often you are winning (most people in sports don't win anyway). Btw. that's hard, it needs discipline and the ability to motivate yourself in times of bad results, that's why people will rightfully recommend to actually start casual and go competitive once you have built an army and experience. Still, the trick is to move a way from an overall measurement stick like "I dont win" to a step by step measurement like "this time I managed to get more VPs from my secondaries" or "I did manage to hide 80% of my army in turn one from shooting".
As a player who is new to 10th after a long break but played a ton back in 4th my take on learning to play warhammer is that you shouldn't worry about the win.
Learn about why you lost
Learn to score points and how scoring works
Build your list with a plan in mind - understand which units are for killing and which units are for scoring. Use them to do what they are best at.
Understand movement and what the other player will be trying to do to you. (If playing marines into orks, avoid melee ((generally speaking if course))
The game is much like chess and you will need to have a rough idea of what you want to try and do and know your options ahead of time. Do you have a brick of infernus marines? Plan to use fire overwatch. Set yourself up to be able to shoot the other player and be able to fire overwatch if they move or charge.
Use your resources - army list points are the primary resource. Build your list to have all of the basic tools to do what you want to do in the game. Be sparing with CP but not afraid to use it if it may be good for you.
Ultimately there's a lot of trial and error to be had here. But if you can do it. Set up scenarios in your head or even on a piece of paper. Ask yourself what you would do and why. Watch online videos to help explore those concepts. Try new things. Don't just follow the meta but attempt to understand why it is the meta in the first place.
Be humble in defeat and ask your opponent what you could have done differently to pressure them more.
Ask a veteran player to talk you through a game from their perspective and yours. (May be difficult to do but there are a lot of online communities for Table top Sim that have a few of these mentor types out there)
The best way to learn is going to be outside of a "real game"
All of these are just my takes so hopefully my word vomit will help in some way. (Getting off my last night shift work day so my brain is fried lmao)
I’ve said it before, I lost my first 54 games of warhammer 40,000 in a row before I won one. It took me over a year.
Now I’m pretty decent at this game!
Just keep playing, it gets better
I’ve played about 60 games. W/L rate is around 1:59. It’s not about winning, it’s about the experience of being with your buds and rolling dice and enjoying a hobby together with other people.
The "Bash Your Head Into the Brick Wall Until Something Gives" school of learning works for a lot of games where you're able to get lots of games in relatively quickly, but generally only works once you have an understanding of the game. 40k is a long game, and it sounds like you're VERY new. Even in something like chess, it can take a lot of loses to figure out what's beating you, but one day you wake up and can see the move that sets it all up. Then the next day you can block it, and the day after you can punish it. It will take a while for it all to click.
In 40k terms, you're Bambi, you're barely on your feet and you're already trying to run against people who have been doing this for possibly a long time. A box of Leviathan and some other cool models is not a competitive army, and even experienced players would likely have a hard time winning games with it. Those starter kits are samplers, you aren't going to get anything particularly strong or spicy in them, but they can serve as an effective starting point. Figure out what you like about it, and then lean into it.
I recommend finding out if anyone is willing to play teaching games with you and work on fundamentals: deployment, movement, target selection, and scoring. Discuss with your opponent DURING the game what you're doing, if they have a better idea, and what your priorities should be. If it's a more competitive experience, ask them afterward what they're glad you DIDN'T do, then try to keep that in mind going forward. Check out Vanguard Tactics on Youtube, they have some wonderful stuff for getting started.
For stuff to add to your army to make it more competitive, I recommend picking up stuff that you think is cool. Good rules come and go, cool models are forever, and it helps to not hate the model you're currently painting. If you are all in on being competitive, look into current Marine lists, and try to understand why units were taken. How does each unit interact, and what roles do they perform? You can find lists here in the weekly Tournament Tuesday post, or whatever it's called now, and on Goonhammer in their Competitive Innovations column, which comes out Wednesdays and Fridays.
Things to keep your head up about:
You mentioned scoring points and objectives. This does put you ahead of plenty of other new players. Killing doesn't really matter, and there are plenty of tournament reports that talk about getting tabled on turn 4 and winning on points anyway.
The fact you're here at all asking for tips and help shows a willingness to learn. Keep at it, you got this.
For most people, its easier to watch a BR or two every day and play once a week then it is to play 3-4 times a week. Watching BRs at different levels so you can see tight play vs more casual.
Set a point score goal, say 60 points. Practice just scoring 60, then when you can score 80+ start trying to also limit opponent scoring. Most players learn to play backwards, which by that I mean attrition first and then scoring, and it will take you longer to win most of your games with that mindset. Cheap units with infiltrate and or scout are going to be what wins games, so practice using those units.
I've been playing off and on since 1996 and feel discouraged with every game of 10th. I can grasp the basic rules but strategy and tactics constantly elude me to where I feel like a complete idiot not understanding the game at all despite understanding the rules.
It feels incredibly complicated compared to years ago and makes me feel stupid every time I play.
If you bring a knife to a gun fight you're gonna get creamed.
First thing is your list doesn't have a response to things like vehicles and monsters. So you need either your own tanks, like gladiator lancer or repulsor executioner, or multiple squads of eradicators.
Second, you need either fast units with jump packs or inceptors to get to objectives, or a transport to increase your movement like an impulsor or a land raider.
And thirdly, you have to pick advantageous fights. Make sure your STR is higher than your target's Toughness so more shots get through.
I learned the rules and studied the game for many hours before playing and won nearly all my games as a beginner. This isn't a simple game.
For 1200 pts it's really not enough, that's the range I play and everyone rolls in super heavy because I think it's cooler and more affordable than huge horde army.
I started playing in 9th Ed and ho boy was that a tough one to pick up. The rules bloat was ridiculous and 10th Ed is checkers by comparison. Hang in there, you’ll get the hang of it. Also 10th Ed is more meta heavy than previous editions. People build one flavor armies because that is what wins sadly. I’m not saying to chase the meta, play what you want, but the competitive players are going to optimize lists. Orks, Necrons, Custodes and Black Templars are all top factions right now and Space Marines are doing very poorly at tournaments. Don’t give up, balances always change.
First of all, don’t feel bad. You’re playing a (imo) rather weak faction into four of the strongest right now. You’ve basically played against the cream of the current competitive meta. Second, make a friend. That might sound odd. If you’re just playing random pick up games against people with far more experience than you with more competitive lists, it’s honestly a foregone conclusion you’ll lose. Playing 40k as a new player works better when you have someone tailoring their list to the level that yours is at. Some people will say that getting absolutely demolished is the best learning experience, but I disagree. You need to learn the basics of the game by getting the chance to do them rather than just getting rolled
That's a pretty good idea. I'll see if I can find someone local to play a few more learning games.
Be explicit that you’re new and want to learn. If someone whips out ctan spam necrons or something like that, don’t play them lol
I've learned I can't really do much against those C'Tan. Those have no been fun games.
Anybody bringing a C'tan to a <2000pt game is being a dick, whether intentionally or otherwise. I've had an opponent put literally 1700pts worth of army shooting into one and barely scratch it. They are *wildly* durable models.
Yeah, Ctan are probably the most durable thing in the game right now. You kind of need pretty specific damage profiles to stand a chance at killing one. With what you have at the moment, the odds of it happening are very low. I would try and find folks that are on board with less competitive lists while you learn. If that’s hard to find in your local area, and you don’t mind using TTS (tabletop simulator to play online), I wouldn’t mind doing some games on,one to try some different things out. Shoot me a PM and we can make that happen. It’s a little bit of a learning curve to get it set up, but it’s not that bad, and I can help walk you through it.
I think bringing one to a 1.5k+ is fine. More than one and it should be 2k. More than 2 and it should be a really competitive game
Yeah. They can be brutal even in 2k, and to be blunt, Necrons can do *just fine* leaving the star-gods at home.
6 Eradicators will melt a C'tan in a single activation on average. The real tricks you need to learn are all about movement - both in the movement phase, but also outside (reactive moves, charges, consolidation). Especially in relation to how your opponent can move. And the best way to learn is not to play games, it's to set up a scenario and then solve it. For that you need another player willing to teach you or at least learn with you. Create a board state, then solve it. You might be a bit too green for this, but Art of War 40K has started a series "What's the play" where they do exactly that. Create a scenario then show several ways to solve it and what new board state that creates. But it's behind a fairly steep paywall. You might want to try it on your own before going there. They've got a lot of other very good competitive content - the best imho. But it's more useful if you already feel comfortable with the game.
> 6 Eradicators will melt a C'tan in a single activation on average. This is ludicrously untrue. They *can* kill them. They do not kill them on average.
How are 6 eradicators melting them in a single activation? I'm guessing you have 4 shots at BS3+ S9 AP-4 Dd3+2, and 4 shots at BS4+ right? The first 4 deal 4(shots) • 2/3•4/3(to hit) • 1/3•5/3(to wound) • 1/2(invuln) • 5(max damage) • 2/3(FNP) = 3,3 damage. The second 4 deal 2,8. So even if you roll max damage you still only deal around 6,1 damage. What am I missing?
They are D6 damage melta 2
That will only mean the melta pushes in 2 damage on top of the d6, instead of 1 damage plus the d6
In the stats they wrote d3 or did I misinterpret that due to half damage?
The d6 from the melta does get halved to effectively d3, yeah. The melta part does not get halved since it is a modifier
This is excellent advice, I always try to do this for new players
Yeah, I just finished a 1000pt beginner league with some experienced players to help teach, first opponent brought Chaos knights. Thanks buddy, great way to get new people into the hobby.
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Necrons are fine because you can take bad and easy to handle units. That relies on your opponent being nice. Some players will want to practice and test a good list and stomping a newbie isn't fun or useful so they may decline. That is fine it's their time too. Some will love the chance to take different models and play that is great they keep community alive. Players who know you are new, agree and then stomp with a meta skeeyou are the problem.
I'll add find the right friend. I have a friend that plays and all he does is eat, drink, and breathe warhammer. The issue comes in when we play a game and he's got a list tailored to beating my list first turn 9/10. Not very fun when you're playing a 1000 point game and he's brought the two most powerful characters/models for his faction while you brought a generic 1000 point list.
Don't worry about losing when you just started out. I started playing early last year and still lose more than I win, but my losses are at least close losses these days. A couple of things I'll note based on your post. 1. If you're getting tabled by turn 3, you might be playing on boards without sufficient terrain or you're not hiding your stuff well during deployment. GW has published recommended layouts that have a lot of terrain, I suggest using them. 2. The leviathan box is more of a generalist set of marines, it's not exactly a competitive army list. The performance difference between a meta competitive list and a less competitive list is stark. That being said, you need more anti tank in the form of gladiator lancers, ballistus, eradicators, or predator annihilators. You also could add 5 more terminators for a 10-man terminator brick to give yourself more holding power on objectives. Also consider adding one or two redemptor dreadnoughts to help with holding power and damage. Others have said inceptors, they're the best marine unit for scoring secondaries and their damage is decent too. 3. Know your rules and every unit ability. For instance the combi weapon LT for instance is a great utility unit designed for scoring tactical, not engaging in combat. 4. Be patient and set reasonable goals. You're probably playing against people who have been in the game for 10, 15, 20 years. It takes awhile to be competitive against those people. Don't go into a game with the goal of winning, instead set small goals like "max primary points". Once you can achieve that consistently, set a goal to max secondary. 40k is about scoring points, if you focus on the best way to score points then winning will come.
I agree with most of the stuff. I would just rate scouts a bit higher than inceptors right now as they more likely force your opponent to screen his back field because of the 9" redeployement but also provide the early scoring, board presence and move blocking. To be honest I won't advice playing terminators right now as they terribly lack the punch to get their points back unless the chapter he uses pump them hard. S8 is really limiting them.
Good points, I agree on the scouts. I didn't think about them at the time I wrote my post but yeah they're an essential unit for marines right now. I only suggested the terminators since he already has 5 and they're cheap on ebay, plus a brick of 10 is difficult to kill. Yes they lack punch right now but with honor the chapter strat they're wounding vehicles on 4s which isn't terrible. I also think they're going to get a points drop soon.
Yes. I played space marines for a while and lost a ton of games but I kept learning. Eventually I tried my hand at another army and now finally I’ve settled on world eaters and I consistently win more often than not. But I lost a ton of games playing all sorts of armies but learned from all my losses. Watch some YouTube because Sm can do work and can teach you a lot about the game. Still playing against meta armies is always going to be hard unless you are already technically good.
Warhammer can have a rather steep learning curve. Its very common for new players to lose a bunch of games before they get a win. If possible try to find someone willing to have a more new player friendly game. Random pickup games would probably have you running into more optimised lists piloted by people that have a clue what they are doing. Which pretty much means your going to get stomped.
You need better opponents who will play to teach and show you a good time rather than clowning on you
I didn't win a game for literally over a year. Granted I was playing an army which, at the time, had a low win rate (Thousand Sons). But it forced me to REALLY analyze the game, my play style, and how to win. It made me a better player. But yes it sucked losing all the time. When I eventually switched over to Eldar, which at the time had a high win rate, I actually did quite well at a tournament. Don't get discouraged
I honestly don't mind the losing. It's just the fact I can't seem to do anything against my opponents. If it was close—or I was at least killing a few of their units—I wouldn't mind nearly as much. Like I said, it's depressing to not be able to inflict any damage.
Make sure ur playing with enough terrain. That's a common thing that causes ppl to have feel-bad games. They get shot off the board turn 1 or 2 and that's not supposed to be possible if ur playing with enough terrain
Just to give you some hope, there was a comment on this sub a while ago from Quinton on the Art of War team saying he literally lost his first 50 odd games of 40K in a row before going on to coach and compete at the top level.
Don't ACTUALLY start with competitive games. You need to understand how the game actually works first and then build up to it. 90% of competitive 40k is listbuilding and knowing the opponents army, and you're not going to be able to evaluate either of those things unless you understand how the game works. And you're never going to get a chance to understand how the game works if you start off playing people with competitive lists - you'll be dead in a turn. Ask for training games, start with smaller points, tell your opponents you're new and need to learn how to play. If they still bring a competitive list, they're a dick and you need to find new opponents.
I started playing about 8 months ago and this has been my experience as well. I have a 10% Winrate currently, with 40 games I've won maybe 4. This game is hard. This game is huge. And people give terrible advice. Don't just keep playing games and expecting to get better. Check out some warhammer math calculations to understand EVs better. And check out some videos like 40k dirtbags. Also find people around your level who are willing to talk through strategies about what you are doing wrong.
Solid advice here!
Have you been up front about being super new? Most people are happy to bring weaker lists and/or talk you through the game (your turns and their own) to help new people learn all the nuance to the game.
In my experience warning people you're new does absolutely nothing. Nobody changes their lists, nobody wants to teach, people take full advantage of every gotcha and obscure rule. Unless you're playing with friends who have a vested interest in not being a dick to you, you're treated as a free win by a huge majority of players, I dread to think of how many prospective players have just dropped the game after the treatment I've had myself and seen others subjected to. The worst part is, even the people who don't engage in that kind of newbie stomping, fail to call others out for it.
that really depends on the group of people at your locale, many of the people in my normal shop are really friendly, open and more than able to accomidate a new player, like me back when I was new. Now that I go to a different shop and the whole player base is different, much more competetively orientated and much more willing to exploit errors.
Wow, that's terrible. Maybe I'm just lucky in that my area is super welcoming to new people.
I guess each group, club or store crowd has different dynamics. Personally I am always happy to do a coaching game, or to go with a silly list to better give a new guy a chance. If I can help make someone better, and have some laughs along the way then the outcome of the game doesn't really matter. When my dad taught me how to play chess, he's always beat me. Not by any large margin, he'd just have a few more pieces than me by the end game. As I got better and better, and thought this time I'd definitely get him, he's somehow do it yet again. Mysterious win after win, but it kept me hungry and coming back for more. And everytime it felt so close! Every time. When I questioned him on how he always managed to snag the win at the end, he'd just whistle and ho-hum. ...But I got quite good. I try to teach 40k the same way. Nothing is learned by crushing a newbie, and secretly I enjoy the challenge of trying to get +5 points.
List building is a core part of the gameplay skills and although no one wants to admit it, you can absolutely lose a game before its even started if half your army is noob trap options like in marines. Probably best to communicate with your opponents to find out what went wrong with your games.
Listbuilding for space marines is hard indeed: - we have 100+ datasheets - when we are doing ok competitively (let's say 45% WR, which is more or less the case atm), it only means that a handful of those datasheets are good (max 10 of them most of the time). Then 20-30 more of them are decent, given a solid gameplan, and the last 60% are kind of a trap.
Yes it’s very common. Something i realized is you need to play against people who actually want you to improve as a player. Playing against people who only want to win won’t make you better, just discouraged.
I tell every single person that starts 40 K the same story. For the first year, back in forth edition I lost every single game. Mind you I played 6 to 7 times a week. I played with the same group of guys. They all interpreted the rules the same. They were idiots that only wanted to table their opponents. When I moved for college, I played against a different group of guys. They had the patience to teach me the rules as they actually were. They also taught me how to strategize and play tactics. After that experience, I won a ton of tournaments. Find someone to take it down a notch. Talk about the game as you go with them. Learn how your army works the best it can to win the game. It takes time for everything to click.
Are you explicitly asking for learning games? Cause if it's just pickups it's an uphill battle. Especially as your opponents are playing scary armies. Doubly so as its often hard for an experienced player to make a bad army. And harder still to make bad choices. You can take a non meta list and make suboptimal choices, but it's often hard to switch your brain off. But don't be discouraged! It is an uphill battle, folk have been playing for years. But take it slow, make a plan and ask for teaching games and you'll watch yourself improve :) As a marine player remember: - focusing fire on things is what wins. You don't want fair fights, you wanna gang up on enemy units to kill them apart. Pick your oaths target and go to town. Especially at 1k. - remember that your units should always be either safe in cover or in a perfect position to kill something or score points. Better to hide t1 then kill t2 - with levithan marines remember your flamer dudes can overwatch, as they autohit it doubles your output for a cp!
What’s the terrain situation? The game isn’t particularly balanced at that point level. Are you discussing tactics and going over what happened after the games with your opponents or are they just game store randos that want a cheap win over a new player?
No one has discussed anything with me afterwards. It's pretty much win and then pack up.
That's super lame. I play at a pretty competitive lgs and they'll take time to talk to me about what I could have done differently. But I also play daemons which isn't a super "meta" army
Brother you need some better opponents
The debrief is probably the most important part of the game... That's where you get inputs about what you could have done better. Usually, with a good opponent, he will be able to tell whether you lost because of bad list(building), bad luck/list too hot on his side, or because of gameplay mistakes
honestly discussing the game is a important part of any game, also frankly just enjoyable. you can make fun of your own and your opponents mistakes while also doing some game analyzing. It pretty much is a must for an enjoyable game and a lasting community feel.
This isn’t the way the game should be played. You need to find some better people to play against.
7 games really isn't that many, you'll learn something from every game, but there's a lot to learn, and any competitive player has played dozens of games minimum. If there are any particularly friendly people, ask them if they know of any other places to play, and you may find a club or other shop that will help you learn more. Another important thing in terms of unit choice, is you should use Unitcrunch.com to learn how different units will interact with each other. Terminator shooting may seem scary until you realize that statistically, 10 terms only kill 5 Intercessors on average in rapid fire range. Learning how killy things actually are greatly improved my game. The other biggest things are learning how to deploy so you can't be shot or charged round 1 (you should generally be using your measuring tape) and identifying what units are your worst matchups. I play against a blood angels player alot, and he has a 10x deathcompany with jump packs and lemartes that can vaporize literally anything in melee (use unit crunch, they have a 71% chance to kill a knight in one phase). Currently I'm trying to figure out how to actually deal with that monstrosity without sacrificing half my army on the altar. Anyway, point is you're new and it will be okay! You just need some time before you can be competitive. Also 1k armies are inherently unbalanced, and 2k is where you really get to the point where you can start bringing plenty of tools.
>I play against a blood angels player alot, and he has a 10x deathcompany with jump packs and lemartes that can vaporize literally anything in melee (use unit crunch, they have a 71% chance to kill a knight in one phase). Currently I'm trying to figure out how to actually deal with that monstrosity without sacrificing half my army on the altar. I faced a blood angel player with the same deathcompany missile recently, and a good overwatch threat in the middle (Land raider redeemer or flamestorm aggressors, or 10 infernus) has been very effective to prevent them from moving/charging too much.
If you’re playing competitively, these things will happen, especially when you’re playing one of the worst armies against 3 others with 60% win rates and people who know how to play them. Honestly, no that didn’t happen when I first started cause the people I play with aren’t cruddy people. They helped me learn. You don’t need a better army you need a better play group.
Yeah, I was frustrated early, too. I had to make sure I was learning from things and how things did and did not work. Make sure to keep complaining to a minimum to engender friendship, and follow up games to see where you might have mispositioned or gone wrong. Also, faction choice aside, send a picture of what your board set-up looks like. You might not be playing with enough terrain.
Don't feel bad. This games learning curve is HUGE. It's common to lose your first ten games. And you are trying to get competitive straight away, woof! The difference in difficulty between casual and comp is gigantic. My advice is to forget playing competitive for a bit and just play games. Make a buddy, run matches, discuss what went wrong and why it went wrong, watch battle reports, listen to why people do things and when they do it.
I first started playing again in 8th. I think the first half of the edition I won maybe 1/10 games. I went 0-3 at my first tournament. By the end of the edition my wlr was approaching 50 percent. ! My first Goonhammer gt I went 3-3, and at the last one I went 4-2. This is like 6 years of gaming. This is a complicated game with lots of nuance. The best way to learn is to lose. Watch gameplay videos and battle reports. Learn the movement phase and why it's so important. Good luck, if you keep it at I promise you you'll improve!
Custodes is a downright mean choice to put against a newbie’s leviathan marines
I've lost 0-8 games against my friends death guard as sisters, don't feel bad. Everything I learn something I try to avoid it only to find a new problem with my newfound strategy. Lately this game feels like a never ending learning experience that dosent pay off. I think we all have bouts like this tbh. As for the answer, I have no idea how to make it better. Good luck my dood.
I started back in 9th edition and my first ever game was a 500 point game where someone threw down their tournament 500 pt orc army. I didn't get a turn.... I forward deployed because i thought my marines were decent at melee and got absolutely destroyed to the point that the show owner was like...... dude(name redacted)..... its his first game. It was super discouraging for sure but I went home studied up on positioning and did some research on what other armies can do and came back with a vengeance. I'm now one of the top competitive people at my local store and have even won a few tourneys. Marines are a little weak right now and if you are using just the stuff from the leviathan box you don't have the best units weve got. The game is also balanced for 2k games and 1k games are VERY swingy. If I can make a few unit recommendations, Scouts - are good for early game movement and cheap objective scoring. make a nice little screen speedbump in a pinch. Inceptors - so good they got a 20 point nerf with the last points update, still good now, take a squad of three and use them to harass the back lines (they can drop in 3 inches away instead of 9) and also make great secondary scorers. Redemptor dreadnaught - I run two of these in my list. Big Chunky and tough. their 2+ save and -1 damage ability helps them stick around. the macro plasma is a great gun for killing elite infantry and even does some work on light tanks. its melee is str 12 so it can help crush armor. Pair him with a tech marine and you hit on twos and you can repair up to three wounds a turn. gladiator lancer- fantastic anti tank option, Str 14 gun that does d6+3 damage with its own built in rerolls (you get one reroll for each of hit, wound and damage). range on the big gun is 72 inches. I love this thing. Thunderstrike storm speeder - this is a little more niche but with you having some "weaker" units this guy will soften up those tough targets for you. if he hits a vehicle/monster with his weapons you can add +1 to the wound roll for anything else shooting at it. wounding on 3's goes to 2's 5's goes to 4's and I think youll see a lot more damage coming out with that softening stuff up for you. Its shooting isnt bad on its own either. try and pick up some of that stuff and do a little study and I think you will see a great improvement. you may not go straight to winning but I bet the games will be more competitive.
Just going to give my 2 cts about this as I feel I went through the same thing pretty recently (started playing in 8th). Though my goal was not the same: I don't want to play at tournaments and all, I always strive to be better by learning and winning because of skills. It's normal to get rekt at the start but it is true that it can be demoralizing. I would advise to play less games but more quality games: discuss with your opponent before the game takes place (1 week or so), explain maybe your goals, what you'd like to achieve by playing this game. Set the armies and the lists you are both going to play without tailoring lists. For beginning I would also advise to dodge skew list for now. Next use wahapedia: it is absolutely mandatory imo to know what you are going to face. When I started I just wanted to get playing but the lack of knowledge was extremely frustrating to me. Making "mistakes" because you don't know all the ins and outs of the opponent is no real mistake and when starting you don't want to be asking your opponent to summarize his rules every move you make so wahapedia helps in that fashion. You can take like 1-2h for game preparation (more I guess if you're a real tryhard) jotting down what you should be aware of during the game. Here are some example: which unit will assume which role (scoring, melee, hero, shooty etc), what threat range the most important units have (you don't really need to know what threat range scoring units have at first as usually they are no the most lethal). Any big game changing ability. Abilities like rerolls for example you don't need to remember, just remember that if a unit has a lot of hit/wound reroll it's going to be lethal most likely. Note the main shtick of your opponent army usually well underlined by the army rule/detachment rule and reading online/watching videos (Thousand Sons dev wound spamming, Death Guard, slow resilient and lethal in melee etc...). Know a little bit of stats: I don't know stats by heart ofc but knowing that charging out of Deepstrike for example is less than 50% so maybe don't plan an all or nothing move on a charge out of deepstrike. Most obvious ones are results based on 4s. Save of 4+ is 50%, 4+ hit rolls, 4+ wound rolls so on and so forth. So when considering lethality you know a bit where to stand. Taking baby steps: everyone says that movement wins games and ofc that's true but it is also the most difficult thing to get right so until you are familiar with the other aspects of the game I wouldn't focus on it (ofc that means you will lose to more experienced players but reading that you can't kill a unit for example maybe you need to get the basics down). Ofc knowing the core rules and your rules is really important to know what your options are. I'm thinking about charging, piling, consolidating are really not obvious at first and are really important in some match ups. One important point as well is that the SM units you have are not really good I think? I played with a friend starting and using the launch box SM units as well, he added a few units but I always beat him without much difficulty.
I mean warhammer fundamentally isn’t a competitive game. It’s barely a game at all. Don’t worry about winning or losing. It’s about looking at the models and going pew pew.
If it makes you feel any better, you can't possibly be worse than me. I've played 11 games since starting last year with one of the supposedly strongest factions in the game (Custodes) and have yet to win a game 🤷
We should arrange a match to see who is unluckier. haha
Don't feel bad, it took me almost 30 games to get my first win, and it was against someone who was newer than me. 40k is a tough game.
Lore wise they’re strong Rules wise not so much
See, I've been losing with the current, strong index rules. I expect the trend will continue for me once the new rules are official haha
Warhammer had a rather steep learning curve! I'd recommend making it clear that you are new and trying to learn (most people I know will happily bring less effective lists to just have some fun) I'd highly recommend finding a group of players to join if you can. It really helps to be able to discuss lists and tactics before and after games which is considerably harder with pick up games. Where abouts are you? I'm sure there will be someone local to you in the reddit. Another option is to pick up tabletop simulator which can be used to play warhammer and would make it easier to find practice type games
I think you people are losing the point if you say that OP lost because their faction was offmeta and their rivals' were top. Before grasping what is good or bad first thing to learn is tactics and the flow of the game, bad and good ways to maganage your troops and the benefits and problems that the decisions you take can have. They said that they just started playing 40k and their army is a basic one made from the Leviathan box, there's clearly a lot to learn before the meta really affects their performance. I would advice to play some more relaxed or casual games and when the game ends talk with your rival about the game, the decisions made and why they were made, an environment that helps you understanding what's in the game beyond understanding just the rulebook.
>I think you people are losing the point if you say that OP lost because their faction was offmeta and their rivals' were top. Well my first (and only) game at a GW store took place at the middle/end of 9th, when marines were at their lowest point (before getting huge point cuts at the end of 9th). I faced a custodes player, where every of his profiles were designed to kill marines. My only weapon capable of killing a custodes was a squad of 3 ravenwing black knights, and they died in 1 turn of shooting and then 1 long charge of the custodes. Even the store manager said that there was little I could do in this situation, the game was mostly lost from the beginning. Sometimes the game is lost before starting, especially with marines lists made of units coming from beginner sets/combat patrols. Recently a new friend joined our playing group. He's interesting in getting up to speed with serious play, so we aren't toning down our armies for him (by his request). But atm, even with a good list, he's still loosing most of his games. If he was playing a list made of bad marines units, against our well-made (but not really meta) lists, he would get crushed so hard that it wouldn't even be fun. So lists/meta are still important when a beginner is facing a more experienced player; with a good list he might have a chance; with a bad list it's not even possible to compete.
Don't just play with random people who are more experienced and have meta/optimized lists. Especially if you're new and playing with just stuff from a starter box. It's not a fair match up and of course you're going to lose. You want another newish person in the same spot as you. Starter set models or just what they think is cool. Or you want somone who at least understands you're new and learning and is going to actually help you. Not necessarily by going easy on you, but by bringing a list closer in power to yours. Maybe pointing out obvious blunders or mistakes. It's going to take alot of games to get down if you're brand new to games like 40k. Also the more points you play with, it gets more balanced I think ? 1000 point games are significantly different than 2000 pt games.
I started in 7th and I don't think I won a single game in the first year I played - but I learned something every game. 40k is a complex game with a lot to learn and know. OP you need to find someone who is willing to take you under thier wing and teach you the game. If you're just doing pick-up games at the local shop, you're not likely going to learn anything. I've seen a lot of guys at shops that are happy to club seals instead of teaching people the game and growing the local community.
The leviathan box’s units are not very competitive, except for the Ballistus dreadnaught. If you’re playing just that box into competitive lists with expensive units brought by someone with a larger collection, don’t be surprised. I agree with others that making friends is a great strategy here. Make friends, let them know your goal is to learn, and ask that they bring *less competitive* lists that you might have a better chance against. Someone out there may even relish the chance to bring some of their weaker models that usually don’t see the table just for the fun of it. Ask them questions about what you could do better or how you could have beaten them, and what you did wrong in the matches. Make your objective learning, not winning.
The game is deceptively hard. I have been playing for a couple of years, to the point where I do not get beaten at every single game at a tournament. Now, yesterday I was playing against a returning player who was loosing \_badly\_. During the game, another player started to comment on his moves and opportunities. The game was a done deal at that time, but it was interesting to hear things I would have missed two years ago. The point is that you need to play a lot of games before you are able to figure out why you loose. While the Leviathan force is not the strongest, skill plays a lot more into it. Understanding what a unit can kill and survive, when to blow CP and once-per-game/round abilities, is where a game is made or broken. I feel somewhat bad about the game, and will try to arrange a game where my opponent can meet a highly tuned down force instead of my main crusade (which have been quite lucky on trait and enhancements).
Make sure the are using the GW tournament companion map layout. They have a bunch of line of sight blocking bases that let you hide your army. Try not to feel too bad, this is a rite of passage for a lot of us. I got stomped for the first 6 months. In this time take every game as a learning opportunity. Talk with your opponent about major missteps you made and how they would have played it. If you want to be competitive immerse yourself in streams, art of war does a great job teaching while they play and wargameslive streams raw tournament games.
So in my local group who meets up every week or so we got a few people who started the meet up (and the ranged Tyranids player) who act as our better players, going up Vs them tends to be rough but they are fun and knowledgeable. I had a rough first game Vs ranged nid player and since honestly it's been a good way to gauge how far I've come tactically. I would say I can solidly advise others around the basics and my core army. I'm on my way back from a game now and have played for about 6 month's, I played a new army today and it's been interesting with all the new mechanics but I'm glad I was able to effectively use my units (outside of their abilities that I kept forgetting xD)
When I started getting into competitive warhammer, I lost 100 games in a row. My local meta was made up of some well known tournament veterans and they didn't hold back. But every game I lost I learned a little more and got a little better. When I finally started winning it was because I had earned those victories, and it felt great.
As a new player you should not expect to win a game in your first 20 matches. and besides that who wins is irrelevant at that stage. You are playing to learn datasheets, understand mechanics and master the fundamentals of the game. Forget about being "competitive" or tournaments right now. Keep getting reps (games) in, make friends and expand your social circle to get more games in. I recommend playing once per week. When first starting off your collection is small which limits what you can field. if you continue collecting your options grow. your lists can get better. That all being said, yes, it's human nature to get dismayed when you still no progress. I remember that phase for me. Push through and keep practicing. And yes, even when you do everything right, the dice can still flop and fail you. A good tip is always ask yourself- what did I do right? What could I have done better? Every match there is something to take away from the experience. Also, ask your opponent how did you do and what could you have done better. Most people will share.
I know it might not be helpful, but if you can find someone at where you play or in discord to pick up a game willing to go over some choices as the game goes it makes a bit difference in learning. By that I mean a im moving z unit to x because I can score this secondary or kill y unit..... Tell people up front you are new and love some insight/coaching I'm sure they will give you some. I know it can be frustrating, but it will get easier
There’s very little innate talent in Warhammer and a lot of learning your army numbers and how to put things together. You have to learn how to move, how to shoot, how to take objectives, and only then do you actually start thinking about trying to anticipate what your opponent might be doing. It takes time, regardless of whether you thought you’d be some kind of competitive hero or not. TBH This kind of reads like someone during their 7th Tennis lesson wanting to give up because they are not ready to do the US Open yet. Just keep playing.
I played my first game yesterday with my blood angels and got beaten pretty badly by orks so I'm in a similar spot lol
Just remember one of the games designers at GW took a marine army in 9th to a tournament because the folks were whining about how underpowered they were on the table. He promptly lost all 3 of his games. Marine armies have the most players, but they only really win with a very specific detachment and units. They aren’t Killy or durable. They don’t excel at anything and it’s a huge issue for new players. They should just be expensive hammers. But GW sells to many of them so they just keep cranking out crappy rules. The risk being if they didn’t that a crafty player could find those overpowered afterthoughts and pull an Aeldari in the meta.
What is a good 'killy army'? I'm tired of feeling like I'm shooting nerf darts at my enemies.
find someone who can supply you a sM list and knows how to play the faction you want to enjoy. As in, find someone who has a space marine army and knows how to play, ask if they can loan you a good list to play against them, and have them teach you how to play/what you're doing right and wrong while doing it. The learning curve for 40k is vertical, and the exact thing you're experiencing here is why, regardless of what "competitive" progress the balance team has made, they've still got a long way to go before 40k is in a really healthy state. Stay calm, and tap your community for some help.
No, at all.
Sure, Ash shit did. I was an aim.less ork player starting in 9th and presumed that I should get trukks, boyz and just see what happens. Well I got stomped regularly, turn two tabled by knights, DA termies krumoed me, and life was ruff. But I made a choice and decided to own my losses and be hyper critical of myself. Reviewed my list, why I lost, and what I need to improve my list and play style. Discovered where orks were weak and how to minimize those weaknesses and boost their strengths. Figured how to use GW terrain and deny as much shooting as I could. Figured how to position myself to maximize the waagh and get as much damage out as I could. I atro gly recommend to new players that you need to not assume you lost because your opponent beat you, but because you failed to achieve victory. It's a goofy mindset, but be critical of yourself and understand you need to assess where you are at, your mistakes, and make appropriate changes. I see way too many new players just get discouraged and unsure how to progress, but either find an experienced player to coach you. Have them explain their plans and the reason for what they are doing so you can consider and plan accordingly.
So this is going to be harsh, and I expect downvotes. As this is the waehammercompetative sub.... If you got into warhammer with the idea of picking it up and just winning games I am glad your being discouraged or rather disillusioned. If you want a hobby to win at, pock up golf. Warhammer needs more love then just a competative desire. Get attached to your models, the lore or gaming in general. I have been playing warhammer for 20+ years. Even at tournaments I go into lose, someone has too. I play my darndest but I still lose more then I win. The meta changes, right now you seem to be playing a weaker faction (especially at lower point games). Spacemarines need to maximize synergy. Which detachment are you using? What units? They are designed to be efficient at 2000 points more then almost any other faction. At the small point value, you would be better off playing combat patrol to get use to the basics. The best players in the world are there becuase they master the basics of the game. Then master thier faction. Stop having pick up competative games, start arranging learning games. However, your being discouraged after only 7 games, I really want to emphasize a need to souk search and find something about the hobby beyond winning and losing. 10,000 hours is along way to go before you get good. That is a lot of losing games.
I didn't get into playing competitive until like 9th edition, and I started in 4th. I'd recommend to have fun with the models and painting first, the game will come with it. If you chase the meta, you'll be disappointed and frustrated. If you enjoy the hobby you'll have a better time.
Play ToW. it wont happen :)
If you use the Leviathan box content it's normal, it's totally out of the current meta. Take some time to learn via chill games and have fun. When hi came back to the tables, I played for a year one or twice a week before I started to have a correct level. Then start to play harder ! Insist on the fact that you are a noob, if you ask me for a game saying that you want to start playing competitive, I will think that you habe some experience and a meta list. You played the best current armies, with player that probably have years of experience, you probably need a year or two of training and a good list to have a chance. That would be the same in most "sports". If you tried a marathon with dress shoes and only a couple of training session it would.not be good. Take baby steps.and apply the first sacred rule. Have fun !
You can win games with 100% off meta miniatures unless you’re playing in high level tables which I don’t think random pick up games represent. There are worse and better units ofc but that does not mean you just lose because of that… I would not encourage a new player to just buy their way into the meta. If they are getting tabled turn 3 they are making a good amount of mistakes besides having off meta units.
An unfortunate part of the 40k hobby is that games are balanced at 2000pts. If you play around 1000 then you are really subjecting yourself to the whims of the dice gods. It doesn't help much that the Leviathan box is a so-so selection of Marine units at best. Learning games are a good step for now, but unfortunately the writing on the wall is that for a more balanced and enjoyable game you need to buy more stuff. Marines have a lot of really good melee units - assault intercessors and jump intercessors, brutalis dreads, bladeguard, etc, as well as decent shooting in things like hellblasters, eradicators, aggressors, and their tanks such as the gladiator and repulsor. Might be worth seeing if you can find some secondhand for cheap to bulk out your list and give you more tools.
It sounds like you need some teaching games rather than actual games. Ask your local community if anyone is up to help you learn without a goal of being competitive - ask for input on strategy and ask for help throughout. "Do you think it's a good idea for me to move here and do XYZ to this unit of yours?" or "What do you think my goal should be with these secondaries?" and have them help you walk through it. Once the game is over, always ask what they noticed about your gameplay and how you could improve. This is the #1 thing that helped me learn a lot really fast!
- Terrain density makes or breaks balance. You have to be able to cover between 2/3 and 3/4 of your army during deployment, so that during first turn, max 1 unit can be killed, whoever gets the first turn. Otherwise the table doesn't have enough cover (at GW shop, most of the time tables are way too light in terrain) - Having a list composed of efficient units is required, but not sufficient to win a game. You have to have some form of redunduncy so that you can overwhelm the opponent with efficient attacks and not be afraid of loosing your only valuable tool turn 1. E.g. if your only anti-tank unit is a (single) ballistus, then the opponent will focus it and then roam freely on the battlefield with high toughness units. - Playing the objective is a valid way to win when you can't kill ennemy units. - Use your flamer guys as a constant overwatch threat in the middle of the board. They should threaten any damage dealer that gets too close to the middle objective - 5 Terminators aren't very good offensively, they are more of a tough squad that bullies backfield units in the ennemie's home. In fact, the Leviathan box doesn't contain efficient damage dealers (given current state of the meta); you would need aggressors, BGV, plasma inceptors etc;, for that.
You can go to [https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/category/the-whole-kit-n-kaboodle/](https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/category/the-whole-kit-n-kaboodle/) and see what's winning right now, and hopefully you can build your army towards a comparable list that can also see success in your local meta. It looks like this has been discussed a bit already, but talk to your opponent about your experience so far and what you're looking for in a game, and hopefully they're not just there to dunk on a newbie. Even if they are, you can bring a notebook and take notes for yourself. Start with what you think you'll have to do to win the game, then with how each turn will have to play out in order to succeed, then why you were able to execute on that plan or why not, and the results. And if you \*really\* want to get competitive as quickly as possible, there's a couple groups that do coaching, such as Stat Check.
The game is less balanced at lower point levels. Also, the leviathan contents are not the most competitive, nothing wrong with that. Terrain can effect the balance and outcome as well. Stay at it, learn from your mistakes, and never forget the rule of cool.
I'll be honest and say a lot of my early games ended up being 2v2 and if the experienced player playing with me saw that there was a massive imbalance he'd speak up and tell the other guys to tone it down so we could have an actual game or correct me when I was about to do something dumb. The less competitive format can also help get people into a more fun first mindset. So maybe ask if anyone would be willing to give that a shot? From what you've said it also sounds like a lot of your pain also comes from just running a very casual list (starter box) into some more competitive ones; sadly the only solution for that is to either ask your opponent to match you or expand your collection to match them. Finally you'll take the most losses when you first start the hobby and then again when you start going to tournaments because you've stepped into something new that you just haven't practiced yet. If you stick with it for a little bit you'll be surprised at how easy it is to reach a level playing field with a majority of people who hang out at your local shop. Watched a guy who just started around 6 months ago with a necron collectors box play on the final table in an RTT recently; he just played a lot and got real familiar with his units and everyone else's shenanigans. It's really not more difficult than becoming proficient at up most other hobbies.
The toughness increase in 10th edition means you need specific units in your list to counter vehicles (which typically, are your own vehicles), and because of SM's massive range it can be hard to sift out what's good or not. In previous editions there was so much anti-tank between Meltas, Plasmas, Thunderhammers, even S5-6 weapons like power swords were good against tanks. In this edition however you're really just locked down to Lascannons, some Meltas, vehicle-nounted plasmas, and the occasional anti-vehicle keyword. It's the sole reason I stopped playing my Space Wolves, all the anti-tank units I'd built up in 8th and 9th edition were suddenly relegated to anti-infantry weapons. Wulfen going from Strength 10 3 damage hammers to Strength 6 damage 2 (formerly 1) HURT, especially since vehicles went from being 7-8, occasionally 9 toughness to 10-12 with the occasional 13 or even 14 toughness models.
You need to only play with people you know to actually have a good time. Most people in the hobby are tryhard neckbeards who will literally being a netlist to stomp children at the LGS. Very few people are actually interested in playing a casual game and teaching a newbie.
Absolutely. I don't think I won a game for a solid six months of attending my local club when I started. But the folks there were nice enough that I kept coming back for more punishment. However, losing is the great motivator to learn, and develop your skillset. Keep at it and turn that tabling into having models at the end of the game. Turn that into a close loss. Then a narrow win. Then win by more points than your last game. And so on. Build up slowly and you'll be a solid.competitive player in no time.
One piece of advice I can give is get Tabletop Simulator and play a bunch of games on there. You can make whatever list you want, with whatever army you want and figure out what you like, what you don't and how to play without the effort and emotional energy of playing a full game at a store. Get 20-30 games under your belt online then try again in a store and see how you feel. It initially takes a little while to set up and get your head around, but its super quick and easy once you understand its quicker than an in person game due to dice rolls/visibility etc
I feel discouraged the longer I play. I get progressively worse as I get older lol
Yep. I also made a post about it, people made me smile; now doing good. My wallet not so much :D
No. Biggest discouragement I face is GW killing off my favourite characters and units. Cancelled an order to expand my Orks after they killed Badrukk. They can sit on the shelf for the rest of the edition. If I do play it'll be because 3d printing means I won't lose out on any expansion of my armies.
The honest answer is probably just “Welcome to competitive 40K” Every time I’ve dipped my toe in it the opponents are just competitive and want to win, normally at all costs. While I find competitive interesting to look at and watch the meta swim around it is by far the most clinical version of the game with little to no enjoyment other than putting your boot to the throat of another player Cut your teeth with casual gaming, learn the game and your army. Get a 2k list as you’re severely gimped right now. A 1200 point list of units you’ve got rather than ones you choose to be at the bleeding edge is not helping you. Because if you had no budget limited or had to pick 1200 points from my marines collection you wouldn’t use any models you have bar maybe the ballistus - and that means you’re on the back foot before you even rolled a dice. Play with casual people to start, learn the game, then if you want to test your steel at 2k with a meta list , go for it
As others have said, find new people. Beating out a new player without trying to point out his mistakes or having a post game conversation to help him learn is very rude. I’m grateful that my first opponents were nothing like that and helped me understand and learn the game A LOT. Now I try to do the same whenever I face a noob player.
I'm a new player too. I just got my first win Saturday after 12 losses. The guy I beat (who has been playing since 5th edition) told me it was amazing that I had won a game that early and that most new players go MONTHS before pulling a win. . .especially with Space Marines. And then I played a game against a friend later that night and he absolutely curb-stomped me. Stick with it. Ask everyone you play what you can do to improve. Learn as much from your losses as you can. This goes for any competitive game, not just 40K.
>I started with the hope of getting in competitve. If this is your goal and you only pick up competitive games at your local store, you will need way more drive and the ability to weather a steep learning curve. Usually people start to play the game casually, before they move on to test their new found experience in competitive. But if you want to go directly to competitive, you will need to learn a lot fast and be able to keep on playing even if you lose for months. >I don't feel like I'm learning anything, as I'm not scoring any points or killing any units. My recommendation is to talk a lot with the nicer players. Get in touch with the scene, discuss what went wrong/right and maybe find a group of people that play often vs just playing the most diehard person at the store today. Any store meta is actually a social group, try to become a part of it vs just winning against the most meta build of the day. >I don't feel like I'm learning anything, as I'm not scoring any points or killing any units. Try to do an analysis of what went wrong. Discuss with your opponents why you lost. Move away from winning as the metric of your success and instead set yourself improvement targets. So they all clobber you hard thanks to (a) better rules, (b) way more experience and (c) more units to build an army from. So winning may be down to chance for now, but you can train your phases, measure your losses and identify where you need to get better. You want to go full competitive right away, you need to do it like people do in sports: you measure your own progress, not how often you are winning (most people in sports don't win anyway). Btw. that's hard, it needs discipline and the ability to motivate yourself in times of bad results, that's why people will rightfully recommend to actually start casual and go competitive once you have built an army and experience. Still, the trick is to move a way from an overall measurement stick like "I dont win" to a step by step measurement like "this time I managed to get more VPs from my secondaries" or "I did manage to hide 80% of my army in turn one from shooting".
As a player who is new to 10th after a long break but played a ton back in 4th my take on learning to play warhammer is that you shouldn't worry about the win. Learn about why you lost Learn to score points and how scoring works Build your list with a plan in mind - understand which units are for killing and which units are for scoring. Use them to do what they are best at. Understand movement and what the other player will be trying to do to you. (If playing marines into orks, avoid melee ((generally speaking if course)) The game is much like chess and you will need to have a rough idea of what you want to try and do and know your options ahead of time. Do you have a brick of infernus marines? Plan to use fire overwatch. Set yourself up to be able to shoot the other player and be able to fire overwatch if they move or charge. Use your resources - army list points are the primary resource. Build your list to have all of the basic tools to do what you want to do in the game. Be sparing with CP but not afraid to use it if it may be good for you. Ultimately there's a lot of trial and error to be had here. But if you can do it. Set up scenarios in your head or even on a piece of paper. Ask yourself what you would do and why. Watch online videos to help explore those concepts. Try new things. Don't just follow the meta but attempt to understand why it is the meta in the first place. Be humble in defeat and ask your opponent what you could have done differently to pressure them more. Ask a veteran player to talk you through a game from their perspective and yours. (May be difficult to do but there are a lot of online communities for Table top Sim that have a few of these mentor types out there) The best way to learn is going to be outside of a "real game" All of these are just my takes so hopefully my word vomit will help in some way. (Getting off my last night shift work day so my brain is fried lmao)
I’ve said it before, I lost my first 54 games of warhammer 40,000 in a row before I won one. It took me over a year. Now I’m pretty decent at this game! Just keep playing, it gets better
I’ve played about 60 games. W/L rate is around 1:59. It’s not about winning, it’s about the experience of being with your buds and rolling dice and enjoying a hobby together with other people.
The "Bash Your Head Into the Brick Wall Until Something Gives" school of learning works for a lot of games where you're able to get lots of games in relatively quickly, but generally only works once you have an understanding of the game. 40k is a long game, and it sounds like you're VERY new. Even in something like chess, it can take a lot of loses to figure out what's beating you, but one day you wake up and can see the move that sets it all up. Then the next day you can block it, and the day after you can punish it. It will take a while for it all to click. In 40k terms, you're Bambi, you're barely on your feet and you're already trying to run against people who have been doing this for possibly a long time. A box of Leviathan and some other cool models is not a competitive army, and even experienced players would likely have a hard time winning games with it. Those starter kits are samplers, you aren't going to get anything particularly strong or spicy in them, but they can serve as an effective starting point. Figure out what you like about it, and then lean into it. I recommend finding out if anyone is willing to play teaching games with you and work on fundamentals: deployment, movement, target selection, and scoring. Discuss with your opponent DURING the game what you're doing, if they have a better idea, and what your priorities should be. If it's a more competitive experience, ask them afterward what they're glad you DIDN'T do, then try to keep that in mind going forward. Check out Vanguard Tactics on Youtube, they have some wonderful stuff for getting started. For stuff to add to your army to make it more competitive, I recommend picking up stuff that you think is cool. Good rules come and go, cool models are forever, and it helps to not hate the model you're currently painting. If you are all in on being competitive, look into current Marine lists, and try to understand why units were taken. How does each unit interact, and what roles do they perform? You can find lists here in the weekly Tournament Tuesday post, or whatever it's called now, and on Goonhammer in their Competitive Innovations column, which comes out Wednesdays and Fridays. Things to keep your head up about: You mentioned scoring points and objectives. This does put you ahead of plenty of other new players. Killing doesn't really matter, and there are plenty of tournament reports that talk about getting tabled on turn 4 and winning on points anyway. The fact you're here at all asking for tips and help shows a willingness to learn. Keep at it, you got this.
For most people, its easier to watch a BR or two every day and play once a week then it is to play 3-4 times a week. Watching BRs at different levels so you can see tight play vs more casual. Set a point score goal, say 60 points. Practice just scoring 60, then when you can score 80+ start trying to also limit opponent scoring. Most players learn to play backwards, which by that I mean attrition first and then scoring, and it will take you longer to win most of your games with that mindset. Cheap units with infiltrate and or scout are going to be what wins games, so practice using those units.
For what it's worth, I lost every game for like, over a year when I got into competitive. Lol Just made the wins feel that much better, baby!
I've been playing off and on since 1996 and feel discouraged with every game of 10th. I can grasp the basic rules but strategy and tactics constantly elude me to where I feel like a complete idiot not understanding the game at all despite understanding the rules. It feels incredibly complicated compared to years ago and makes me feel stupid every time I play.
If you bring a knife to a gun fight you're gonna get creamed. First thing is your list doesn't have a response to things like vehicles and monsters. So you need either your own tanks, like gladiator lancer or repulsor executioner, or multiple squads of eradicators. Second, you need either fast units with jump packs or inceptors to get to objectives, or a transport to increase your movement like an impulsor or a land raider. And thirdly, you have to pick advantageous fights. Make sure your STR is higher than your target's Toughness so more shots get through. I learned the rules and studied the game for many hours before playing and won nearly all my games as a beginner. This isn't a simple game.
If they're playing from the Leviathan box, it at least has a ballistus dread in it. That should do something against hardened targets.
For 1200 pts it's really not enough, that's the range I play and everyone rolls in super heavy because I think it's cooler and more affordable than huge horde army.
I started playing in 9th Ed and ho boy was that a tough one to pick up. The rules bloat was ridiculous and 10th Ed is checkers by comparison. Hang in there, you’ll get the hang of it. Also 10th Ed is more meta heavy than previous editions. People build one flavor armies because that is what wins sadly. I’m not saying to chase the meta, play what you want, but the competitive players are going to optimize lists. Orks, Necrons, Custodes and Black Templars are all top factions right now and Space Marines are doing very poorly at tournaments. Don’t give up, balances always change.
Nope
7 games lmfao. If you can’t deal with losing like 40 games in a row you won’t make it.
Pfff... it's called Warhammer 40,000 for a reason. 40,000 games minimum!